48 Hours - "48 Hours" Live to Tell: Surviving Ted Bundy

Episode Date: April 12, 2020

Notorious serial killer Ted Bundy targeted three young Florida women in one of his final attacks. They survived and share their terrifying ordeal and long road to recovery. CBS News correspondent Tracy Smith reports.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. In January of 1978, I was 20 years old. I lived in the Chi Omega Sorority House on the FSU campus in Tallahassee. I was happy. I was with my other friends,

and Florida State was just a safe place to be. When I moved into the sorority house, my roommate was Karen Chandler. When I was at FSU, it was very laid back. It was just a great time. was at FSU, it was very laid back. It was just a great time. Classes had been going on for about a week, and everyone was moved in to the house. Saturday, January 14th, I walked home, and I got in the sorority, and there were kids talking about, you know, where they're going tonight, what are they doing, who they're dating, what party. And then I saw my book sitting on the

trunk and I said, you know, I have a test on Monday. I'm going to go ahead and stay home and study tonight. My roommate Karen came in at the same time, and she had a sewing project she had to do. So she sat in her bed next to mine. And we talked for a little while, and then Kathy was tired, so I just went ahead and decided to go to bed. It was maybe around midnight, maybe a little bit before midnight. That night, I heard our bedroom door slam open. I was opening my eyes a little bit

because it kind of brought me into consciousness. And I'm awake enough to know someone's there. As I'm opening my eyes more and focusing, he raised his arm, and he had something in his hand. I thought it was a pipe or a stick. I didn't know what it was. He came down and hit me in the face. It just felt like pins and needles and knives in my face.

My roommate Karen was now stirring. And he went over and hit her. I'm still awake and I'm moving. So he came back to my side of the bed. And as I see him raise his arm up, this bright light shone into our room. This light was a car from one of the sorority sisters

coming home from a late date. He got spooked and he left the room. The next thing I remember is the feeling like I was being lifted downstairs. And I remember asking if Kathy was okay

and them saying she's going to be okay, you need to worry about yourself. They put me on the stretcher and there was all this noise. There were the lights from the police cars and the ambulance. Police say he simply walked in through an unlocked door. People talking and the radio squawking. Police say he simply walked in through an unlocked door. People talking and the radio squawking. They say he was armed with a heavy oak log. And I thought I was at a carnival. Because my mind went to somewhere I could understand.

My name is Kathy Kleiner. And I was attacked by Ted Bundy. Thank you. The early morning hours of January the 15th, 1978, I got a call and the call basically said, Sheriff, there's multiple murders and assaults on girls. They told me it was at the Chi Omega house. I was stunned. Before I could get myself settled into criminal investigator, Ken Casares, as my role as sheriff, I had to get over my personal thoughts about these could be my own daughters.

I was there before Kathy Kleiner and Karen Chandler were brought out on gurneys. I said prayers for both of them as they passed me. I didn't know if they were alive or deceased at the time. They told me two were definitely deceased inside. I knew I woke up in intensive care. I didn't have any idea for sure why I was there, but I knew something bad had happened. I had at least one skull fracture. I think every bone in my face was broken and my jaw was broken. I had a broken arm and I had a couple of fingers on my hand that

were crushed. Maybe I had been in my room for a day or two and my parents were afraid of what was going to be on the TV. So my dad said, before we turn on the TV, I need to tell you something. And he told me about Lisa and Margaret. Margaret Bowman, 21, and Lisa Levy, 20, had been killed just down the hall from Karen and Kathy's room in the sorority house. They had both been strangled, beaten, and sexually assaulted. I can't imagine how horrible that was for their parents. And it was very hard because I really couldn't express my grief and my sorrow to their families. couldn't express my grief and my sorrow to their families. My jaw was broken in three places, here, here, and here. It was hanging on this joint, the jaw.

What they did was put my jaw back together and wire it shut. In the hospital, Kathy could remember nothing about the attack. She says those memories have slowly come back to her over the years. I remember the detectives were in my room first off before my family even showed up asking me questions, but I was not able at all to help the detectives. It was just a big blur, a big blur to me. But it turned out the Kyle Mega House had not been the only crime scene that night. We were outside that evening when all of a sudden I get a radio communication from the sheriff's office that there is something going on at a duplex. A young lady who lived there alone and the next door neighbor hearing some beatings,

some sounds. This is going on less than six blocks away. I sent an investigator there and found Cheryl Thomas on the floor in blood and had been beaten badly. Cheryl Thomas was a dance major at FSU. Like the Chi Omega victims, she suffered severe head injuries and was taken to the hospital in a coma. I thought, could this be the same individual? And I said, how? We've got such a police presence.

How could that person go just a few blocks and strike again? It was inconceivable. I got a call from Colorado about an escaped criminal named Ted Bundy. I was familiar with the name. They said, do you know Ted Bundy? I said, I've heard of him. Theodore Bundy, a suspect in the rape murder cases of at least 36 young women in California. 36 rapes and murders mostly in the West over a seven-year period. They said, we don't know where he is. Bundy was on the FBI's 10 most wanted list. And I wrote his name down

on a legal pad in my car, Ted Bundy. It was the first name associated with the murders in Tallahassee. Ted Bundy was known to lure women away with his charm and then abduct them or pick them up at a bus stop and say, can I give you a ride? I did not think that the method of operation of this case was anything near similar, except for an attack on girls. So I did not take that at that time as serious. When I woke up in the Tallahassee Hospital, I couldn't really tell you who I was or where I was. I couldn't really tell you who I was or where I was. I know I had head pain, and my face was very swollen.

My mom and dad had to tell me what had happened because I really did not know. I couldn't remember what happened, and they had to slowly break the news to me, Cheryl, you were attacked. Cheryl's jaw was broken in two places, her shoulder dislocated, and she had five skull fractures, leaving her permanently deaf in her left ear. I felt very grateful because obviously if I had not had the two neighbors next door to call that night when they heard me crying and a beating kind of sound, I know I would not have survived. As the news sunk in across the FSU community, Cheryl remained in the hospital. Karen recovered at her parents' home nearby, and Kathy went home to South Florida. I was flown down to Miami with my family. My parents took me to an oral surgeon

and had to re-break my jaw because it was not going to be lined up correctly. because it was not going to be lined up correctly. So now I had to be wired shut for an additional nine weeks. It was so depressing. When you have your mouth wired shut, you have to always wear nail clippers on a necklace around your neck because if you ever start choking or anything, you have to be able to cut the wires and be able to breathe. As Kathy and her fellow survivors healed,

Sheriff Casares looked for ways to put the person who did this to them away, searching for clues in untraditional places. I did a personal examination of Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy. When I examined both of the bodies, I found what I think was the most significant piece of evidence, and that was a bite mark. And that bite would potentially be able to be compared to whoever we found. To me, it was almost like he was leaving whoever it was a signature.

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Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. I think before Tallahassee and FSU was a cocoon, but that was sort of the shutting of a door in a way. That was the end of we are safe. That type of evil that encompassed me that night, I couldn't wrap my head around it. It just seemed surreal. It didn't seem like it was possible. The innocence at Florida State was gone. The university had asked the fraternities for volunteers, and if a lady needed to go to the library or to campus or anywhere, one

of us would go and escort her to wherever she was going. Men started sleeping in the lobbies of the dormitories. There were police patrolling all the time. For that month, no one knew if they were sitting next to the person that had committed the crime. I mean, if they couldn't tell you who did it, how could they tell you who didn't do it? As January 1978 stretched on, police were stumped. Although they had bite mark evidence, they had no one to match it to. Within a few weeks after the sorority sisters were murdered, we had information that a 12-year-old, Kimberly Leach, disappeared from her school.

So we thought, could it be possible? But this was a 12-year-old girl. We're dealing with college students in a sorority. Kimberly Leach disappeared from Lake City over an hour away, her body later found by a nearby park. Fear of the unknown attacker pervaded the area until news broke of an arrest in Pensacola. There was something on TV when the news came on.

Police arrested this 31-year-old man after a high-speed chase Wednesday morning in Pensacola, Florida. He claimed to be a Florida State University law student. Pensacola police had pulled over a Volkswagen Beetle that was driving slowly, and the mysterious driver refused to give his name. Came to find out, of course, that the vehicle was stolen from a location nearby to the sorority house. In that Volkswagen, they found dozens of IDs and credit cards that had been stolen from around Tallahassee in the weeks before. Then the identification came back. It was Ted Bundy.

The moment I heard Ted Bundy, I had the flashbacks, of course, of the phone call. And that's exactly what we had. We had Ted Bundy. I had the flashbacks, of course, of the phone call. And that's exactly what we had. We had Ted Bundy who came to our town. If those who link him with dozens of sex slayings are right, Theodore Robert Bundy is one of the most savage killers in history. Mr. Bundy had been a very prolific serial killer for many, many years. It is very unusual for Mr. Bundy to leave a survivor. Ted Bundy's murder spree out west ended when he went to prison in 1976,

but at the end of 1977, he had escaped and made his way to Florida. Immediately after his arrest, he became a suspect in both the FSU and Kimberly Leach attacks. We know that he got here somewhere in the vicinity of January the 8th. He rented a boarding room in a boarding house adjacent to the Florida State University campus. Bundy was at home on a college campus. Around the time of his crimes out west, Bundy had attended college and even law school.

When Mr. Bundy was in school, he took jobs working for political campaigns and apparently did an extraordinarily good job. There was absolutely no indication that he was the serial killer that he ultimately turned out to be. His charm, his wit, his intelligence, his charisma, everything about him made him different than all the other serial killers. The first photo I saw of Ted Bundy after they arrested him, he didn't look like a serial killer. He looked normal. The survivors learned more about who

Ted Bundy was and the brutality of the crimes he was suspected of committing. His history was a shock. I think when I learned about those women, it's just an immense sadness. There are all these families that are devastated. In the months after the attacks, while the Florida authorities were building their case, the survivors slowly began to move forward with their lives. For Karen Chandler, that surprisingly meant moving back into the Chi Omega house. When I came back, they gave me space. It wasn't like they treated me as a special China doll that they couldn't talk to. I felt like everyone treated me pretty much like they had treated me before. So life just sort of continued on like I had never left.

Cheryl, the former dance student, was now suffering from balance issues and didn't know what her future would look like. I knew I couldn't hear again, but I asked the neurologist, would I ever be able to dance again? He said, that's totally up to you. So then I knew that I had an option of training my body all over again, or I won't dance again. I made my decision I was going to go back and get my degree. Cheryl moved to Texas and studied ballet at another university. But for Kathy, life took a different turn.

Life totally changed for me. I did not go back to college. I was married six months after the attack. My parents thought I needed someone to take care of me and to be sure that nobody came in the middle of the night and attacked me again. And I was okay with that. But as much as they wanted to, they couldn't put Bundy behind them. To bring him to justice, they needed to come face to face with their attacker.

We wanted, more than than anything to make sure if this was the guy that did it, we want him locked up, that he never has the opportunity to hurt another woman. FBI agents and Florida police are questioning a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy. With every passing day, the media grew increasingly fascinated with alleged serial killer Ted Bundy. He will remain in Pensacola under tight security until authorities can determine if he will be charged with the Florida State University murders. I feel like they were so focused on Ted Bundy, which I'm sure Ted Bundy enjoyed the media, that they forgot about the women. As Florida authorities investigated Bundy,

they first questioned why his method of attack would have changed. He typically was organized. He would plot, pick up, and then abduct the young lady. And here, it was obvious that he had gotten disorganized. They developed a theory that Bundy had originally stalked and targeted Cheryl Thomas. There had been a guy that I'd seen ride his bicycle by my house. Ted Bundy looks similar so I sometimes wonder if maybe that was him. I sometimes wonder if maybe that was him. He had no doubt cased that place out. And we believed that Mr. Bundy went to Cheryl Thomas' residence. And when he got there, apparently there was a car that had broken down right in front,

and there was a man there working on the car. He found that, kind of got spooked. He then went to the Kyle Mega house. And when his attack at the sorority was interrupted, Bundy returned to Cheryl's. You know, I compared Ted Bundy to a killing machine, like a shark. Because the shark is just feeding in a frenzy off of whatever is available. Just like the shark has the need to eat, he had the need to murder. Their case intensified with an eyewitness who put Bundy at the sorority house.

One of the Kyle Mega sisters, Nita Neary, came home that night after being out on a date. She came in through the back door of the sorority house, and she saw a man coming from the upstairs area down the stairway. That would have been unusual for Nita to see a man because no men were allowed upstairs in the sorority house. She did not see him full face on, but she saw a profile of him. He opened the front door and immediately exited the sorority house. Neary identified Bundy from a lineup. And as the case came together, investigators still had that key piece of evidence to analyze.

We crafted a search warrant to use to search Mr. Bundy's mouth and obtain models of his teeth to compare against the bite mark impression that was left. The search warrant for his mouth probably was the first in the nation's history. So I went to his cell one evening. I told him he's coming with me and he went with me to my dentist's office. The doors opened up. He saw that we were in a dental office. He immediately started screaming, where's my attorney? I want my attorney. You can't do this. He knew exactly what we were going to be doing. Once we read him the search warrant for his mouth, he realized that we could use force. He sat down in the dental chair. He opened his mouth, said,

Do what you have to do, Ken. You know I'm not a violent person. The state asked four dental experts to compare Bundy's molds to the Marks. All four of them concluded that Mr. Bundy was the one that left the bite mark. We were confident going to the grand jury with the evidence that we had. There was an indictment last night in the aftermath of a brutal crime in Tallahassee, Florida. And what was unusual about the indictment was how it was delivered. I have copies of the indictment to give each of you. We had print media, radio media, television media.

Step out, Mr. Bundy. And they were able to view the indictment reading that night. What do we have here, Ken? Let's see. You always say an indictment, all right. Why don't you read it to me? Let's read it. Let's go. Theodore Robert Bundy, you are charged, indictment, two counts murder in the first degree, three counts attempted murder in the first degree. Three counts attempted murder in the first degree. He was obviously not very happy. I did not let it deter me.

Said Theodore Robert Bundy did make an assault upon Karen Chandler and or Kathy Planner. Not surprisingly, the former law student took an active role in his defense. Mr. Bundy took depositions from the witnesses in the case himself. It's very unusual, but Mr. Bundy did have legal training. I think he was acting as the lawyer that he always wanted to be. Since I didn't remember anything about the attack, I think that was helpful. But my feeling at that time was, I don't want to show him any fear because I don't want him to think anything about him bothers me,

is under my skin, scares me. He was sitting there looking at me, and I looked at him, and I didn't take my eyes off of him. And he had this smirk on his face. It kind of made my stomach sick. But also, I knew I was walking out, and he wasn't, and that gave me some power. I felt like I had done my job. I had answered his questions, and I hope I gave him absolutely no satisfaction. Months passed as the case wound its way toward trial. Down in Miami, Kathy Kleiner struggled to put herself back out in the world. After I got attacked, I was afraid of men.

It was something that I didn't want to have control me. And I went to work at a lumberyard because I figured that's where I'm going to see the most men and it worked. That experience helped me a lot. Kathy would soon need that newfound confidence. The survivors were set to testify against Bundy, but this time his life was in their hands. To know I was going to have to testify, I think I just needed to build up my resolve and know that this was going to happen and be prepared as much as I could for it. We locked eyes once again,

and I stared at him. Why do you think people are so fascinated with Ted Bundy? For more on the case, go to Facebook at 48 Hours. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing the best idea yet. A brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk-takers who brought them to life.

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to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I think I always knew that I was going to have to testify in court if it went to trial. I'm expecting this case. if it went to trial. What's the camera doing on the fourth floor? Get away from here. You know you're not supposed to be here.

Excuse me. There was a total media circus. Get! We'll be standing by. Prosecuting attorney, Larry Simpson. And it was the first major case that actually was broadcast live. Evaluating it. As it was actually going down in the courtroom. Only one camera fixed on a tripod tapes the courtroom proceedings. His 20 television crews from around the country

have been covering the trial. Get a front row seat, you can get it all there. I think Mr. Bundy was playing to the cameras. Robert, my name's Ted Bundy. He got a real kick out of it. At trial, Bundy again took an active role on his defense team. Exhibit center on this motion. By participating in his own defense, Bundy and his attorneys hoped to convince the jury that he was intelligent, articulate, and innocent, a victim of circumstances. Bundy had a lot of interaction with the judge. He argued his own motions as good as a lawyer could, I think.

Young women packed the courtroom every day to see the star defendant. Every time he turns around, I kind of get that feeling, oh, no, you know, going to get me next. As lead prosecutor, Larry Simpson felt pressure at or near the cause of death to make sure Bundy was put away forever. The cases out west were not particularly strong cases. We needed to finish the job in Florida. The survivors felt that pressure too, as Cheryl, Karen, and Kathy each took the stand.

I felt it was important for the jury to see a real person who had been subjected to what Ted Bundy did. I had five skull fractures and multiple contusions in my head. It was just my mission to tell my story. And I just really didn't want to look at him, didn't want to talk to him, didn't want anything to do with him. Didn't want anything to do with him. The defense asked, is this the man you saw attack you that night in your room at Chi Omega? And I had to say, I don't know.

Because I never saw his face. I wanted to help put the nail in that coffin, to put him away, to help the other girls who couldn't do it. But I couldn't help. Though the survivors couldn't identify Bundy from that night, someone else could. Sorority sister, Nita Neary. Do you recall the man that you saw at the door of the Kyle Megan house on the morning of January 15, 1978? Yes, I do. Would you point him out for us, please?

The man in the dark suit with the red tie? Perhaps the prosecution's most damning evidence was that bite mark left on one of the victims. This is a photograph of the bite mark. And as you can see, there's a ruler in place. And this is what the forensic dentist did in court. They made the mark. You can actually place this model right on the photograph. And you've got it coming in like this, laying down, and then he turned his head slightly

and did it again. It fits like a glove. But bite mark analysis was a new and relatively uncertain science, and the ever-smiling Bundy seemed confident as the trial came to a close. Smiling Bundy seemed confident as the trial came to a close. Of course I was worried when it went to the jury, but I knew in my heart and by the evidence that was there that he is the one that actually murdered my friends. The jury was out a little less than seven hours, and we turned a verdict. We the jury, we find the defendant guilty as charged. A verdict that was guilty as charged on all counts.

He was convicted, and now whatever sentence he got couldn't be bad enough, as far as I was concerned. Now whatever sentence he got couldn't be bad enough, as far as I was concerned. It is ironic that he ended up in Florida because we were a very active death penalty state. Does hereby impose the death penalty? He was sentenced to death on my birthday. I don't believe the death penalty should be a willy-nilly kind of thing, but if he had gotten out, there were women that were going to die. I have no doubt in my mind. Following the FSU trial, Bundy was also found guilty of murdering 12-year-old Kimberly Leach and received another death sentence.

After the trial was over, I felt that it was just going to be all over and no more in the news or anything. But that didn't happen. It was probably just crazy for me to think that. As Bundy sat on death row, his notoriety only grew. Books and TV programs came out, focusing on his good looks and charm. Instead of rejecting it, Kathy decided to embrace it. I read as much as I could about Ted Bundy. Watched all his movies because I think by learning about him, it has helped me move forward because I wanted to just disassociate myself so that he wasn't part of me anymore. In 1981, three years after the attacks, Kathy had a son, Michael. I didn't want him to know that I had been scared, that I had been attacked.

I just wanted to be a normal mom with a normal kid. One night, I was putting him to bed, and he looked up at me, and he touched my face. And he said, Mommy, what happened to your face right there? And I told him that a bad man came into my house one night and had hurt me. You just don't grasp that at a young age. You don't really get it, but you kind of do, and you just feel like, you know, I'm not going to let anybody hurt you. I felt that it was important to keep her safe.

She was such a loving person. How could somebody do that to... Sorry. And I think in his mind, he always carried that, that it could happen again. And would I be there, you know, to help my mom? How do you deal with traumatic events? For more of Kathy Kleiner's story of survival,

go to 48hours.com. For most of the 1980s, Ted Bundy sat on Florida's death row, appealing his convictions. In that time, Kathy Kleiner went through a divorce and focused on her young son, Michael. I was a single mom for five years, and he and I grew up together. We were very, very close. Growing up, my mom was the most loving, caring, affectionate, happy person. She never let what happened to her get to her.

Kathy had grown accustomed to projecting a tough exterior, but that softened in 1987 when an old high school friend came back into her life. Over the years, I thought about Kathy now and then. Kathy's very special, and you could tell she was very special back then. So I called him and he came over one day for lunch on a weekend and basically never left. I felt energy from Kathy right away when we first saw each other. It was just her smile, and she really looked in your eyes, but happy eyes. All that together just was like, boom.

When Kathy told me a little bit about the attack by Ted Bundy, it just kind of blew me away. She would cry about it. I wanted to take away all her pain. And you couldn't take away this pain. In her family, Kathy found happiness, and she leaned on them for support as Bundy's appeals finally ran out. At the end, he was bargaining for his life. He started confessing to murders. He confessed to 30 murders. And now he was trying to give information, but it was vague.

I'll tell you where more women are buried. Please don't kill me. And I can imagine those being the last words that he heard from his victims. Please don't kill me. Serial killer Ted Bundy is scheduled to die in Florida's electric chair at seven o'clock. There was the atmosphere of a public hanging as hundreds of singing, chanting death penalty supporters gathered. Bye, bye, Ted Bundy, goodbye. When it happened, we got a call. Three, two, one, second. We had TV on, and at that point we saw the white flag that they hold and wave when someone has been electrocuted.

Scott and I were sitting on our little sofa in my condo, and I cried. And I cried. And I cried for all the victims that could not see this. Long after surviving Ted Bundy, Kathy is speaking publicly about her experiences, hoping it might help others. I think by telling my story, it has helped to heal me. But I feel that it also helps people to hear that I have been through something so horrific and I've come out the other side. I want people to know, no matter what they've gone through, that they too can do it. There's no one way to heal from trauma. Karen and Cheryl feel like they've talked about Ted Bundy enough.

I was a victim until I walked out of that hospital. I was a survivor until he was executed. We've got to come up with something that's after that. It's not part of me anymore. I want to be more than Cheryl Thomas that was attacked by Bundy. I want to just be Cheryl Thomas. I got married, and I had two wonderful children. I got my master's had two wonderful children.

I got my master's at Gallaudet University and worked with the hearing impaired in dance. I've had a 40-year marriage. I have two wonderful, self-sustaining children. I have three wonderful grandchildren. I really don't think about Bundy anymore. I really don't think about Bundy anymore. Kathy's journey takes her back to Tallahassee for the first time in over 40 years. She's come, in part, to thank former Sheriff Ken Casares. Kathy.

He's someone I've thought about over the years and someone who is a good memory. You're here. I'm seeing you again. I can't believe it. Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to doing this. This is something I needed to do. Together, Kathy and Ken return to the Chi Omega house. It's weird. The sorority house looks so different. It doesn't bother me like I thought it would. And your room was on the backside.

That's right. It's okay to be here. I'm okay. And I'm with Ken, so he's given me strength. Well, thank you. Through everything, life goes on. You have to keep it going. everything. Life goes on. You have to keep it going. This case is about probably over a hundred victims that lost their lives because of Mr. Bundy. As time moves forward, the hope is that

it will be the women, not Bundy, who are remembered. He's not to be glorified. They used to be damned. They were important people. They were people just like me. Living, breathing people that had futures. And they're gone. And we only remember this inhuman thing. For Kathy and Karen, the sorority sisters they lost are always with them. I think about them occasionally when I'm with my grandchildren or when I had children.

I wonder what their lives would have been like, what they would have done. I wonder what their lives would have been like, what they would have done. I feel that because I survived Ted Bundy and there were so many victims that didn't, I don't want to take that opportunity I was given and not do good with it. I want to be sure that I keep going for them. If you're like us, you're probably at home glued to your TV. Everything is so unpredictable. It's going to be a new reality for all of us.

But I want you to know we are here for you. We're all connected. All working together. Because we're all in this. We're all of us. But I want you to know we are here for you. We're all connected. All working together. Because we're all in this. We're all in this. We are all in this together. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.