48 Hours - A Cop Behind Bars

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Patrick Bradford, a married police officer in Evansville, Indiana, was convicted and sentenced to 80 years in prison for stabbing Tammy Lohr, his 24-year-old mistress, to death and then setting her body on fire. Determined to win his acquittal, Deborah Nolan, a close friend and staunch supporter of Bradford’s, quit her teaching job and went to law school in order to be able to take on his defense. This classic "48 Hours" episode last aired on 4/19/2002. Watch all-new episodes of “48 Hours” on Saturdays, and stream on demand on Paramount+.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. And Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as a part of your everyday routine, without needing to set aside extra time. As an Audible member it easy to be inspired and entertained as a part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month

to keep from their ever-growing catalog. Explore themes of friendship, loss, and hope with Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt. Find what piques your imagination. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca to sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. I'm Dan Rather. He wanted to be a hero and to many he was

until he was charged with murder. 48 hours, right now. Patrick Bradford was cut out to be a cop. All my dreams as a kid had to do with being a hero, rushing in and saving the day. But when his girlfriend was murdered, he found himself the lead suspect. Pretty quickly it came clear to us that Patrick Bradford was the guy. His fellow officers felt the heat. To point the finger at one of your own is very difficult. His conviction stunned family and friends.

There aren't enough words to describe how outraged and upset the whole thing made me. This childhood friend even went to law school just to help set him free. I've felt like David growing up against Goliath. Susan Spencer has the first television interview with Patrick Bradford. Tammy's dead. Somebody killed her. Now somebody who she loved more than anybody else is paying for it.

Was there a rush to judgment? He wanted to be the best policeman that ever was. A cop behind bars. Behind Bars. Patrick Bradford was once a proud police officer. There's no question I was exceptionally good at it. It came naturally for me and it was just like being right where you're supposed to be. Where he should not be, says Bradford, is where he is today, in prison, serving 80 years for murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lore. Tamara Lore died from 21 stab wounds to the back, neck and face before her body was set on fire.

The sensational crime rocked Evansville, Indiana. Tammy, a 24-year-old civilian jailer, was attractive, popular and energetic. She was just a beautiful girl. She was real independent. Always had a mind of her own, always had a pretty smile, real bubbly personality. And Tammy's parents firmly believe Patrick Bradford killed her. I think they got the right person, yes. He's the right person and he is in the right place. But Bradford has insisted from the start he had nothing to do with Tammy's murder.

Tammy's dead. Somebody killed her. And that's not the end of it. Now, somebody who didn't kill her, somebody who she loved more than anybody else, is paying for it. At least one person believes him with all her heart. There aren't enough words to describe how outraged and upset and frightened the whole thing made me. Deborah Nolan is working to overturn Bradford's nine-year-old conviction.

She's perhaps his closest friend, and his case has changed her life. At 34, she quit life. At 34, she quit her teaching job to study law. How much of your interest in going to law school was a direct result of just wanting to do something in this situation? That was a deciding factor. I never would have done it if it hadn't been for this case. Their friendship goes back to childhood, to memories of playing with Patrick and his little brother Joe. He was always just a patient older brother always looking out for me. Helped me learn to ride a bicycle, how to swim, saved me once, pulled me out of the water.

He stuck up for me a lot and I just worshiped the ground he walked on when I was growing up. He was the big brother Deborah didn't have. When he found out that I didn't have a date to my junior prom, I think he coerced one of his friends into asking me to go. You got her a date for the prom, she said? Yeah, it was a disaster.

After high school, Deborah left town, got married, and became a teacher. Patrick, meanwhile, joined the police. He just had that certain way of looking at the world like it's his responsibility to make things right. He wanted to be the best policeman that ever was. What's he like as a person? He had a good sense of humor and he was good with people. We have the barrel. This is the magazine. This is the four in guy Minnis who trained 24 year old

Bradford back in 1986 thought his rookie charge had a promising career. I had a lot of respect for him. I thought he was a good, hard-nosed cop. I guess I saw some of myself in him because I wanted to be a policeman more than anything in the world, and I really believe that Patrick felt the same way. And Bradford lived up to those promises.

Put it down! Put it down! way. And Bradford lived up to those promises. In June of 1990, a local TV crew caught this on tape. He spent six or eight hours with a guy who had a loaded gun trying to talk him out of committing suicide. And he had been given instructions to take the guy down and he didn't. He was able to talk him out of it and get him out safely. You enjoyed being a cop? Yeah, that's what I wanted to do. You know, all my dreams as a kid had to do with being a hero, rushing in and saving the day. Bradford was at police headquarters when he first met Tammy Lore.

She was just wonderful. The kind of person who would sort of light up her surroundings. Their friendship soon blossomed into a romance, but both were ignoring one big problem. Bradford was married to his high school sweetheart, Dawn, and they had two young children. You're crossing boundaries continually and as you get used to crossing the boundaries and before long,'s, well, I've gone this far. Far enough to even pose for professional portraits. I even shock myself when I think back

to what great extents we went to be together and how much pain it caused my wife and my family and her family. Patrick says he actually thought about leaving Dawn, but never quite could follow through. I would guess that the family situation, the children, and the genuine love I think between us that was still there is what held it together. But it wasn't enough love to make you say, I'm going to give up Tammy.

No, certainly not. There was a character flaw there that allowed me to go ahead and make that choice. And he made that choice every single time his wife confronted him. You told your wife that you were going to stop seeing Tampa, correct? Right, yeah. How many times did you tell her that? Probably verbally twice or three times maybe. And did you mean it when you said it?

I could have. But then it wasn't to be. I wasn't going to do that. On the night of August 1, 1992, Patrick Bradford dropped by Tammy's house on his way to work. We saw each other essentially every day. He then began his overnight shift. It was a regular Saturday night. Pretty busy?

Very busy, but that's not unusual at all. You would expect to be really busy on a Saturday night in the summertime. As usual, on his way home the next morning, he headed back to Tammy's house. The streets were fairly deserted. It was a Sunday morning. And then he says he noticed something alarming. There was smoke coming from under the eaves of the house. His thoughts immediately turned to Tammy. It was obvious that it was an involved house fire.

Coming up... I went into the house to see if I could get her out or find her. Patrick Bradford, heroic cop, becomes a prime murder suspect. I think that there's a side of him that was a very dark side, very dangerous. That's next. Police officer Patrick Bradford seems well suited to the quiet community of Evansville, Indiana. I was a very good family man, good father, loving husband. But Bradford was living a double life.

He was driving over to see his girlfriend, Tammy Lore, when he says he realized with horror that her house was on fire. I started to go into that professional mode of trying to do something. So what did you do? I went into the house to see if I could get her out or find her.

Crawling beneath the smoke, he says, he could see into Tammy's bedroom. I could see what looked like flames arcing out from underneath where the bed would be. I felt like it was pretty hopeless that she couldn't survive that. He says he went no further. You know, I was disoriented and uh, and I paused for just a moment there and then just crawled right back out the way I'd come once outside. Patrick radioed for help. Firemen quickly arrived and when the blaze was out, made a grisly discovery. Tammy Lore stabbed 21 times. Her body in bedroom then set a blaze was out, made a grisly discovery. Tammy Lore stabbed 21 times.

Her body in bedroom then set ablaze with gasoline. In the living room, her dog lay stabbed to death as well. That morning, Bradford gave a statement. Guy Minnis, who once trained Bradford, now was the lead detective on the case. I liked him. I liked Patrick. You were fairly, quite cooperative. You even provided them with a list of possible suspects? I did do that. When somebody's murdered, that's what you do. You try to find out who did it. High on Patrick's list was a former co-worker of Tammy's, one Finis Vincent Jr. Tammy had complained about sexual comments

Vincent had made and he partly blamed her for losing his job. He considered her an enemy. And just five months before, Tammy had reported seeing Vincent slouched in his car outside her home around 3 a.m. There's no question about that, you you know he didn't care for Tammy. He was known to have a kind of a hot temper and was definitely a guy that you know you need to have had to look at. Minnis and his partner visited Vincent that same morning. His wife was standing just a few feet away. I would watch his wife and

kind of you know look for surprised looks or whatever. And I didn't see anything like that. We both felt that this was a waste. He also looked at Dawn Bradford, Patrick's wife. Tammy Lohr was an athlete. She was a jock. And she was strong as a moose. Dawn was very frail, very small. And I don't think that she can handle Tammy with a hand grenade

and a machine gun. But Minnis was reluctant to consider the other obvious suspect, Patrick Bradford. I just have a hard time believing that Evansville City Police officer would stab his girlfriend to death, kill the dog, set the house on fire. That happens someplace else. That doesn't happen here. Fire investigator Jesse Story had no such qualms. It was pretty quickly come clear to us that Patrick Bradford was the guy. Even that first afternoon? By then you were you were sure that he had done

it. Absolutely. Firemen had the fire out about eight minutes after Patrick called for help. Story says the damage in the room showed him that the fire burned less than 10 minutes start to finish. Therefore, if Patrick Bradford didn't do this, he could tell us who did because he would have had to have been standing beside him. As far as who done it type physical evidence, fingerprints, murder weapon, nothing, nothing. Hard evidence It's murder weapon. Nothing. Nothing. Hard evidence or not, crime scene investigator Mike Ford

says the scene itself implicated Officer Bradford. It looked at first like a break-in. A window screen was cut. This is the screen from the kitchen window? From the kitchen window. Phone wires were severed. Circuit breakers in the basement were thrown. But it was all a ruse, Ford says. Take that window screen.

The sides, the bottom and the side are cut straight, but the top, it just jags all the way down. That edge is jagged, he believes, because it was cut from inside the house, along the bottom edge of the open window. So what was cut out then was the same size as the window opening from the inside. If you had been on the outside, you could have cut the entire screen out. Exactly.

Ford notes that a sink full of dishes beneath the window was undisturbed. He thinks Bradford staged the break-in to mislead investigators. All the stuff he did in that house to make it look like an unknown burglar came in to mislead investigators. All the stuff he did in that house to make it look like a known burglar came in to commit this crime, he wanted to make as obvious as he could.

James Lofton, a neighbor, happened to see Bradford drive up to Tammy's. He was out walking his dog, and he did report that Bradford was upset after the fire. He seemed like a nice fella. And I put my hand on his shoulder and kind of consoled him. He was crying. But Lofton did not see the smoke Patrick claimed he saw when he first drove up.

Now granted, Mr. Lofton was an old man, but still he didn't smell smoke, he didn't see smoke. Why didn't you just turn to Mr. Lofton and say, for God's sakes, the house is on fire. Call the fire department. Do something. I wish I had, only in retrospect, because that would have probably prevented everything that followed. Meanwhile, the press was having a field day. August 3rd is the date of this paper, and it's already starting to name him a policeman amongst laying suspects.

Putting Guy Minnis under enormous pressure. If Patrick did not do this, we had to prove with 110 percent certainty that he did not do it because there would always be people that would say, oh, the Evansville Police Department covered this up, and they were taking care of one of their own. Minnis still could not believe that this good cop could kill. And so he was thrilled to discover that a security camera at a nearby bank had been rolling when Bradford's car drove by.

A mere 65 seconds before he called for help. I thought that, you know, there's no way, there was no way at that time that he could do all his stuff in 65 seconds. No way to drive to the house, kill Tammy and the dog, stage an elaborate break-in, pour gasoline and start a fire. I called Patrick and said, hey we've got exactly what we need to clear it. Did someone else kill Tammy Lore? Next, a new theory of the crime. I know you're as obsessed with true crime as I am.

And that's why I'm excited to tell you about a new app for iPhone called Story Rabbit. Story Rabbit is like having your very own audio tour guide for anywhere in the world. While you can choose from a variety of guides, we've created a special true crime guide voiced by me. Using the Story Rabbit app is simple. Pick a location on the map and search for rabbit holes, which are short audio stories made just for you. Whether you're hearing about unsolved mysteries nearby or exploring crime stories worldwide, these captivating audio stories educate you on the darker side of history.

Download the Story Rabbit app now for a free trial. That's Story Rabbit, all one word, or go to storyrabbit.ai to learn more. In November, 1991, media tycoon Robert Maxwell mysteriously vanished from his luxury yacht in the Canary Islands, but it wasn't just his body that would come to the surface in the days that followed. It soon emerged that Robert's business was on the brink of collapse, and behind his facade of wealth and success was a litany of bad investments, mounting debt,

and multi-million dollar fraud. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that define their journey, and the ideas that transform the way we live our leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that defined their journey, and the ideas that transformed the way we live our lives. In our latest series, a young refugee fleeing the Nazis arrives in Britain determined to make something of his life. Taking the name Robert Maxwell, he builds a publishing and newspaper empire that spans the globe. But ambition eventually curdles into desperation, and Robert's determination to succeed turns into a willingness to do anything to get ahead.

Follow Business Movers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app. To the state of Indiana, former police officer Patrick Bradford is just another inmate in the system, looking at 80 years for murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lore. It's like trying to walk through mud up to your knees. Anything you wish you could do for yourself, you just can't do. To his lifelong friend, Deborah Nolan, Bradford is an innocent man wronged by an investigation out of control. The police department was up against a wall. They had this huge

shining light on them. I think they took some shortcuts. I think they jumped to some conclusions because it was just so hot. Fire whenever you're ready. But Detective Guy Minnis insists the cops were meticulous. Even though I didn't believe he did it, I knew that there were a lot of people that believed that he did do it, people that I respected very much. Timing was everything. A bank camera showed Bradford driving to Tammy Lohr's just 65 seconds before he called for help. Too little time to commit murder and set a fire.

I considered that the proof of my innocence right there. At first, the detectives thought that Bradford was cleared. But then some investigators came up with a new theory. What if he had murdered Tammy Lohr, not that morning, but the night before? Two Williams Street board. Bradford had iron-clad alibis for almost every minute during his patrol that night. I was really amazed at just how much of that night

was accounted for. But there was one quiet hour when his only call to base was to report seeing one George Russell, a man who'd had frequent run-ins with the law, in a seedy part of town. Russell would later deny having been there. What about George Russell? You're laughing. You have to forgive me. It's somewhat humorous. Just the very idea that a police officer works the inner city would be dependent upon one of his his regular people that he runs into has arrested twice for his

alibi it's just if Bradford did murder Tammy Lord during the night then the detectives figured all he had to do in the morning was set the fire so the question became was 65 seconds enough time to do just that? So I did a timing test. Minnis timed out how long it would take to drive to Tammie's, pour gasoline, and ignite the fire. He was stunned at the result. When I did the timing test the very first time, it was exactly 65 seconds. The time he had?

Yeah, and I probably couldn't do that again if I tried. As suspicions grew, Bradford agreed to take a polygraph. Why did you even take the polygraph? I was looking for a resolution, I think, and I thought that there could be a resolution in that. The first test was inconclusive, but the second... Patrick failed. ...finally convinced Guy Minnis, Patrick Bradford was guilty.

Not just the polygraph convinced me, it was the interview that took place afterwards. I was going through some pretty frightened emotions there. This was the first interview that was hostile or adversarial. He seemed to crumble. He just seemed to lose it for a second. And you felt very strongly that he was about to confess.

And then suddenly he would draw a deep breath of air and straighten up and square his shoulders up and almost grit his teeth and say, I didn't do it. What kind of signals might you have been giving off that would lead him to tell us that? I don't think I was giving any signals. I think he's just telling you that to support his conclusion of guilt. It got to the point that we all believed he did it. The question was, did we have enough evidence to go forward? Prosecutor Stan Lefkoe concedes the evidence he had was

highly circumstantial. I was looking for just that extra piece and we finally got it. Got it in the person of a neighbor who belatedly remembered seeing a police car in Tammy Lohr's driveway that night during the critical hour. She saw a police car in Tammy Lohr's driveway that night, during the critical hour. She saw a police car there, and it reminded her that she'd seen a police car in Tammy's driveway the evening of the murder. 10 months after Tammy's murder, Patrick Bradford's trial began.

So you didn't see this as a slam dunk going in? Not at all, not at all. What's his motive here? I mean, his wife already knew he was having this affair. I really can't say. My best guess is something happened between the two of them and he went into a rage. The prosecution portrayed you as having snapped.

Yeah. Are you capable of that? I've never snapped like that. The prosecution said I snapped because there was no apparent motive. Even the woman he'd betrayed, Patrick's wife Dawn, testified that her husband wasn't capable of violence. This is Patrick with our children. But she had to admit he knew how to lie. Still, I know he's innocent. Witnesses who dealt with Patrick that night described him as normal, calm, courteous.

And two women he knew said they had seen him drive past a bar during the critical hour, far from Tammy's. But state expert Jessie Story told jurors that the fire was both intense and short. That meant Bradford called it in very soon after it was set. The fire evidence was probably the case. Prove the fire, prove the murder. On day 11, Bradford took the stand.

We were very concerned. Deborah Nolan, then a speech teacher, helped him prepare. Because he was furious at everything that had happened. He was he felt very betrayed by the police department. Prosecutor Levcoe also was worried. I'd heard from a lot of our deputies that he was a very good witness. I had the opportunity to finally answer some of these charges and I knew the evidence very well. But to the chagrin of his supporters,

especially his lawyer Terry Nofziger, Patrick was cocky and arrogant, a disaster on the stand. Patrick feels pretty upset about the fact that he was charged. And you may have seen some of that seeping out today. It was just a little too much for him, and he got kind of snotty in places. So how do you think you came off? Oh, I think I probably came off terribly. It may have cost him his freedom.

The jury deliberated 18 hours before delivering its verdict. Guilty. It was pretty shocking. I think I was just on the verge of losing consciousness, just fainting. The more heinous the crime, the worse the autopsy pictures are, the less reasonable doubt a jury needs. For Tammy Lohr's family, there was great relief. I just had to see him get convicted of this, because I knew he did it. But in the years since, Deborah Nolan says she has found new evidence and new experts.

I believe that had I been allowed to testify at the original trial, that Patrick would not have been convicted. That's next. next. The murder case against Patrick Bradford took almost a year to piece together a painstaking and at times painful investigation for his fellow police officers in Evansville, Indiana. But by the end of a three-week trial, even some of his staunchest defenders on the force had become firmly convinced Bradford was indeed guilty of murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lohr.

But now, nine years later, Patrick Bradford's family and friends, still believing he is innocent, are pressing ahead with their fight to set him free. They are convinced that police, feeling pressured, rushed to judgment. Okay, let's not couple things for those of you that haven't done shotgun training. By the time he was convicted, Patrick Bradford had few friends left on the Evansville police force. Female employees have been threatened. I think they got the right man. Ryan Risen was one of the officers who'd responded to Bradford's calls for help that morning.

He's not burned. He's not injured. I'd be breaking out windows. I'd be doing whatever I could to get to my loved one. At trial, Risen testified against his former colleague. I think it was a very difficult case in our department. To have to point the finger at one of your own is very difficult. I think that he felt like it he was just smarter than us bunch of dumb cops here in Evansville. We wouldn't be able to figure it out. Detective Guy Minnis spent nearly a year on the case. You are as sure today as you were nine years ago that he did it. Yes. In my eyes, Patrick Bradford does not deserve to live. We believe that the jury system made a terrible mistake in this case. Bradford's family, however, never deserted him.

There are several very important leads that never were followed up. Launching its own investigation after the trial. They're family. They love me as much as any family ever loved anybody. We're getting new information every day. Tips are leading to solid evidence. But Joe Bradford says all the leads led to dead ends. Everybody had a vendetta against the prosecutor or anybody else had something to say and a lot of it was wasted time and energy.

And the courts have seen no reason to overturn this highly circumstantial case. More than once, I have felt like David going up against Goliath. Deborah Nolan is the friend who was so outraged by Patrick Bradford's conviction that she left teaching for law school, hoping someday to help set him free.

If he gets a new trial, the outcome will be different because we will be able to present a slew of evidence that was not presented at the original trial. Now married and pregnant, Deborah is cramming for the bar. For years, she's been poring over the Bradford case. She cites problems with every key prosecution witness. Take George Russell, the man Patrick had arrested more than once.

Patrick said that he had seen George Russell out during this critical time. Yes, during that time. George Russell says, uh-uh, I'm at a birthday party. I'm at my brother's house. Right. He wasn't me. Right.

Deborah says she has new evidence. After the trial, we finally found this brother, and we have an affidavit by him signed saying, my brother never showed up that night at my birthday. Is he a credible witness? To tell you how credible George Russell is, I don't know. I mean, that's one of the things about investigations. You don't get to pick your witnesses. You don't get to go out there and say I want a nun and a priest.

And the woman who claimed she had seen a police car parked here in Tammy Lohr's driveway, well, she was no angel either. In fact, she had a record, convictions for theft and deception. And she came forward the very day that the local newspaper had reported the exact times that Patrick Bradford was free on the night in question. I'm not a bit surprised somebody called and said, I saw a police car in the driveway. To give the whole public that important bit of information that's inviting that kind of thing, you never do that. As for physical evidence, even the police admit there wasn't much. No DNA, no murder weapon, no blood. This one was stabbed 21 times.

For anybody to be able to do that and walk away without a trace of it on him is very unlikely. Detectives say Patrick had time to change uniforms. But Deborah Nolan believes they were so focused on Patrick, they missed the obvious. They had a much better suspect that they paid barely any attention to at all. Namely?

Finest Vincent Jr. Vincent, the man with a grudge against Tammy. He'd been seen lurking outside her house only months before the murder. But detectives ruled him out early on. They seemed to make up their mind about him that morning after 10 minutes talking to him in his front yard in a very non-confrontational manner on his property with his wife, the alibi, standing right there. Did you ever take a formal statement from this guy? No, we didn't. Did you search his house or his car?

No, no, we didn't search the house, we didn't search the car. He was just not a good suspect as far as we were concerned at that time. Finest Vincent. Yeah. This was a problem for you. This was a huge problem.

Prosecutor Stan Levko. Finest thought we were trying to pin the murder on him, and we weren't. And at one point he was gonna plead the fifth, which would have been devastating to us. But Vincent did testify, and swore he had nothing to do with Tammy's murder. Had he come across suspiciously or anything like that,

it might have created a problem for us, but he was very credible. Vincent refused our request for an interview, but the police say he did pass a polygraph, unlike Patrick Bradford. I think that he was very foolish to take that polygraph test. I just don't put any faith in them.

If they were as good as policemen try to make out they are, they'd be allowed in court, and they're not. As a criminalist, I'm gonna go with the science rather than the eyewitness. But now she says she has new witnesses she would like to see in court. They are the top experts in their field. Quickly, quickly.

Witnesses who might turn this case around. Go! The only way the state's case can be correct is if we repeal the laws of physics. It's getting really hot in there. That's next. From the award-winning masters of audio horror. I see a face right up against the window, bleach white, no hair, black eyes, a round hole for a mouth.

It's flat, Taylor, it's completely flat. I don't know what that is. I don't know what kind of a head is flat. Comes the return of Dark Sanctum. What is that coming under the door? It's blood. Oh, my God! Seven original chilling tales inspired by The Twilight Zone

and Tales from the Crypt. Get back in your car. Lizzie, it's OK. I'm here now. Josh, get in your car! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Starring Bethany Joy Lenz, Clive Standen, and Michael O'Neil. Welcome to the Dark Sanctum. Listen to Dark Sanctum Season 2 exclusively on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts,

or Spotify. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of Sriracha that's living in your fridge or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of monopoly? Introducing the best idea yet. A brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bolderest takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye?

Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus we guarantee that after listening, you're gonna dominate your next dinner party. So follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the best idea yet early

and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet. Remember that medical treatment will change the appearance of burn injuries. It is an awkward moment. Deborah Nolan, looking for some way to prove Patrick Bradford's innocence, finds herself at the same fire investigator seminar as state expert Jesse Story. It was a little tense once I found out that she was there I was a little upset at that. Initially there's enough room in the average size room to support a pretty substantial

fire. They were shooting me looks like they wanted to kill me but when they realized who I was. After all, Story's testimony helped put Bradford behind bars. I've never had a doubt about how, when or who set this fire. Are you going to be racing out of here? Determined to prove Story wrong, Deborah has persuaded John DeHaan, a highly regarded fire expert, to take a look at the case. The critical issue appears to be the duration of the fire. From what my research has shown me, the time factor ascribed to that fire by the original investigators of five to seven minutes is wrong. Remember, thanks to that bank security camera, police know when Patrick Bradford got to Tammy

Laura's house. The fire there was out about nine minutes later. So if it could be shown that the fire lasted longer than nine minutes, clearly it was already burning when Patrick Bradford got there, which is exactly what he says. Based on the damage to the room and the damage to the body, I would have estimated a 15 to 20 minute duration fire. At this point, I'd have to say I do not think he's responsible for that fire. Jesse's story doesn't buy it, saying you can't investigate a fire from autopsy information

and pictures. He can't measure the depth of charge a piece of wood from a photograph where present at the scene we were able to do that. But what if there were evidence from a real fire, a fire identical to the one in Tammy's house? Make it about three or four feet from the corner. We want to show that the state's version of how the original fire happened is erroneous.

It's just wrong. The four thermocouples are in place? Yes. Patrick's family, along with Deborah, The state's version of how the original fire happened is erroneous. It's just wrong. The four thermocouples are in place? Yes. Patrick's family, along with Deborah, has persuaded veteran fire investigator Don Bellis to conduct a series of experiments. The state's case, in my opinion, would not stand scientific scrutiny. I just did some quick calculations.

The defense had contacted Bellis during Bradford's trial, but he says it was too late then to add him to the witness list. I'll do the hard part and nail that down on the floor. I have a little bit of ability to build. Now, Patrick's brother Joe has enlisted his help by building him a house to burn. It's actually 27 inches on one side, 24 on the other. It's dimensionally identical to the house where the crime happened. You're going to pour the majority of the gasoline onto the bed.

My brother is worth continuing to search. What you see is an opening into the room that's a viewing port. With cameras in place, the fire is set. Quickly, quickly. Okay, we we ready? The fire is set. Quickly, quickly. Okay, we're out. Go! Bellas thinks he can establish how long the fire burned, not so much from the damage.

The smoke layer outside the bedroom is about the four or five foot elevation. But from the smoke. One minute, 20 seconds, the smoke exiting the ventilators is modest in quantity, gray in color. At the trial, two runners testified that when out that morning, they saw smoke above the trees by Tammy's house.

They observed a smoke cloud, let's say, above the house at a certain time. A time when Bradford was at the scene, as the prosecution pointed out. We could figure out from where they were and how fast they were running, what time that was. But Bradford had been there less than two minutes at that point. Too short a time, Bellas thinks, for a fire to produce enough smoke to rise above the trees. Bellas crunched the numbers on computer. In order to have the smoke visible to the runners, the fire had to have been started something like five minutes prior to that time. In order for the state's case to be

correct we would have to repeal the laws of physics. John DeHaan agrees. I can't move smoke out of a room, into an attic, out of the attic, that high in the sky to reach those kinds of heights in that kind of time frame. I can't move smoke out of a room, into an attic, out of the attic, that high in the sky, to reach those kind of heights in that kind of time frame. Ten minutes, fifty seconds, extinguishment being applied. And the experiments seem to confirm it. The really important finding is that it took three or four minutes before substantial quantities of smoke were generated.

But Bellis concedes that exactly duplicating the fire is impossible. Wow. And that's the point, says Jesse Story. Even weather conditions would have an effect. If you got a calm day, then the smoke is obviously going to rise straight up quicker than you would with a 20-mile-an-hour wind that was pushing the smoke laterally. So many trials like this become the battle of the experts. The jury believed the state's experts.

That's sort of how the system works, isn't it? Yes. Maybe it's arrogance, but I believe had I been permitted to testify at the time of trial, that this man would not have been convicted. Would it have made a difference, do you think, if they had had a really good fire expert? It could have made a difference, do you think, if they had had a really good fire expert? It could have made a difference in the sense that it could have been a more difficult case

for a jury and theoretically, theoretically could have made a difference in the outcome, but it wouldn't have made a difference in the fact that Patrick Bradford is guilty of this murder and setting the fire. Next... It's been over nine years. Nine long, hard years. Patrick Bradford's chances. Dracula, the ancient vampire who terrorizes Victorian London.

Blood and garlic, bats and crucifixes. Even if you haven't read the book, you think you know the story. One of the incredible things about Dracula is that not only is it this wonderful snapshot of the 19th century, but it also has so much resonance today. The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in a mirror. So when we look in the mirror, the only thing we see is our own monstrous abilities.

From the host and producer of American History Tellers and History Daily comes the new podcast, The Real History of Dracula. We'll reveal how author Bram Stoker rated ancient folklore, exploited Victorian fears around sex, science and religion, and how even today we remain enthralled to his strange creatures of the night. You can binge all episodes of The Real History of Dracula exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery+, and the Wondria, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years.

I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

Having passed the bar, Deborah Nolan is now a rookie lawyer. She's also a new mother. Can you put that leg down? Can you let me? Still, she finds time for her friend, Patrick Bradford. I will continue to help. I have no intention of giving up any time in the near future. Though Bradford has lost repeated appeals, Deborah hopes to find some new evidence that will be striking enough to win him a new trial. It's all a crapshoot. I wish so badly I could sit here and say, oh yeah, he's got it. You know, I can't.

To prosecutor Stan Lefkoe, this is a closed case. You really have to have something extraordinary and I think it's pretty unlikely that they'll get that. But he admits it's taken an emotional toll. I was told that you actually broke down in court during your closing. That's a lie. I was told by a pretty good source. You know, that may be true. You're very emotional.

Yeah, I do. I get involved in the case just thinking about it now. I mean, you get emotional just thinking about it now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you get emotional just thinking about it now. It's been nine years. I'd lived with this case for almost a year. And I felt the burden of the mother and father. Tammy's parents, Victor and Cricket Lohr, say Bradford has done nothing to ease their pain.

There's never been any kind of condolences from him to us. I think he's in the right place. That's where he belongs. Her daughter's killer has not paid. They don't even know the extent of the injustice that's going on here. Not against me, against Tammy. Who do you think did kill her? I haven't reached a conclusion. I wouldn't dream of doing exactly what the Evansville Police Department would have done in the same situation

and rushed to judgment. Bradford says he's adjusted to prison life as well as an ex-cop can. You're not treated differently? No, I'm not treated any differently. Of course there have been, you know, the odd occasional incident, but overall things have pretty well just smoothed out. Have you ever run into anybody that you helped put in prison?

I've run into several people that I've arrested. Oh, is that why? Yeah, it's awkward. It is a bit awkward. The case still haunts Detective Guy Minnis. Patrick Bradford was once his friend. Though in the end, Minnis worked hard to convict him, the victory always has been bittersweet.

There was still a part of me that felt sorry for Patrick. And that sounds terrible, but it's true. He's a police officer, and there's that feeling that police officers have for one another, that you always have that feeling. You still feel that way? No, he's not a police officer anymore. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at Wondery.com slash survey. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little known British territory called Pitcairn and it harbored a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still emerge. It just happens to all of them. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn.

When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery+, in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify.