48 Hours - A Preachers Secret Part 2

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Part two of the investigation into the murder of Kari Baker. The case against Matt Baker takes a turn after stunning revelation from his former mistress. Baker is charged with murdering his wife and staging a suicide note. Would his secrets catch up with him at trial? “48 Hours" Correspondent Erin Moriarty reports. This classic "48 Hours" episode last aired on 5/25/2013. Watch all-new episodes of “48 Hours” on Saturdays, and stream on demand on Paramount+. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My name is Linda Doolin and Carrie Baker is my daughter. I believe that her life was taken by her husband Matt. I don't believe that a person should be able to walk free after he's murdered. Someone and this someone is my daughter. And it's time that we should have been grieving for our daughter, daughter that we've been fighting for a cause. Former pastor in Curville behind bars tonight accused of murdering his wife more than a year ago. You've got a man who's extremely concerned about his public persona, and it's very important

to him to be viewed as the perfect father, the perfect husband, the perfect Christian, the perfect preacher. But in reality, he lives his day-to-day life very differently. I am Matt Baker and I have been called a cheater, an adulterer, a murderer, a liar, and that's the farthest thing from the truth. Authorities finally have enough evidence to say Matt Baker gave his wife, Carrie Baker, a lethal cocktail of sleeping pills and alcohol. ...to her nose and bruises to her lips indicate she was also smothered with a pillow.

Matt Baker was very good at hiding his dark side. In her gut, she was figuring it out, but she didn't listen to those instincts. How could they think this of me? They know I'm not capable of hurting Carrie. They know that. I don't believe she committed suicide. There's too much about the staged crime scene to believe that. Vanessa Bulls was a key to this whole thing.

She was maybe the missing link. She was the quote, other woman. Murders have occurred for less. Did you ever send you song lyrics? Yes, he sent me song lyrics to the song Dirty Little Secrets. It went, I'll keep you my dirty little secret. Don't tell anyone or you'll be just another regret. You start connecting the dots and you start getting a picture of what was really going on here.

My name is Matt Cawthon and at the time of Carrie Baker's death, I was a sergeant in the Texas Rangers. Matt Baker has been behind these walls, but today he was released from jail. At that point, the investigation was stymied. Something else was going to have to cause the next dominole. the next domino to fall. It doesn't matter how long it takes. We're in it till the end. You can't hide dirty little secrets forever.

I'm Aaron Moriarty, dirty little secrets. Carrie was a very good minister's wife. Faith was very important in her life. Linda and Jim Doolin are convinced that their daughter Carrie was murdered by the man they once embraced as a son-in-law. Baptist preacher Matt Baker. This was a man who was capable of the ultimate evil. Matt has always claimed that his wife committed suicide,

just as he told the 911 operator a little after midnight on April 8, 2006. He was 911. Do you have an emergency? Yes, I think my wife just committed suicide. He said he went out to get a video and gas for his car. When he arrived home, he found his wife lifeless on the bed, an empty bottle of Unisom, and a suicide note on the table. I felt to see if she was breathing. She was not. I shook her. She didn't answer. Their daughters, Kenzie 9 and Grace 5, were asleep in nearby bedrooms.

Matt says it was because of another daughter, Cassidy, that Carrie took her own life. She never stopped grieving for Cassidy, who had a brain tumor and died. seven years earlier. That was a tough time for her. Every year? Every year? Did it get better as the years went on? I had never got better for her.

But Carrie's mom and her family did not believe that Carrie would have abandoned her living children. And that suicide note. It was typed. Even the signature. Linda grew more suspicious when she discovered that there were numerous phone calls

between Matt and a young parishioner named Vanessa Bull. We talked a lot, but I talked to a lot of friends, so it's not... Did you have an affair with Vanessa? Oh, no, I did not. There was never any relationship at all other than a friendship. Matt certainly didn't seem like he had anything to hide. He voluntarily spoke with the Hewitt police a few months after Carrie died.

So since then, it has grown into a good friendship, you know, and I know for a fact my in-laws don't like that. And he wasn't sure. about airing his grievances against the Doolins who had been pushing the police to investigate. I think they're mad that they think I'm moving on. I guess I think I'm moving on too quickly. Matt patiently answered every question they posed. She was laying in the bed? Okay.

Was she clothed? She was not. She had her... She had her... I'm trying to remember. No, she was naked. The police also questioned Vanessa. Like I said, you know,

I said, you're not arrested, and this doesn't mean that you're not arrested. I'm sorry, this is just scary. I know, I know. Who denied any affair with Matt. Did you ever meet him romantically? No. Never? Okay. And that, it seemed, was the end of the police investigation.

Linda was frustrated and felt the only way she'd know what happened to Carrie was to find out herself. So she hired Attorney Bill Johnson and his team of investigators. We became convinced that he'd done it. It seemed like that every expert we talked to told us that it could not have happened the way Matt Baker said it happened. Matt said he was only gone for about 40 minutes. But Carrie's body showed signs of levidity, the pooling of blood after death. The experts said it was unlikely that Carrie could have ingested drugs, died, and reached that state in such a short period of time. Moreover, records salvaged from Matt's workplace server were incriminating.

We got to parts of it that showed he had searched terms like overdose and death by sleeping pills. Johnston felt the police dropped the ball, but he was hamstrung. There was no autopsy, and the death was classified as suicide. There was a guy who was holding a Bible on Sunday telling everybody how to live, and he murdered his wife. Every minute that went by, Baker was closer to getting away with it, and he knew it. Johnston turned to Matt Cawthon, an old friend who was a member of the Texas Rangers,

the statewide law enforcement team. Cawthon agreed unofficially to help. The next step in my mind was to obtain records from telephones, any other type of records that we might need. To get those documents, Cothon needed the district attorney's help. He was turned down flat. I could not understand why I could not have the basic tools that I needed to continue with this. Cawthon persisted and finally convinced the authorities to conduct an autopsy,

three months after Cary died. It was too late to test for drugs in her blood. her blood. But they did find Unisom in her muscle tissue. Along with traces of Ambien, a drug carry was not known to take. The manner of death was changed, from suicide to undetermined. In September 2007, a year and a half after Carrie died, the police now felt they had a homicide on their hands. Matt Baker was arrested and charged with murder. He was released on bond thanks to powerhouse attorney Guy James Gray, who took the case pro bono. I only take the cases that I believe in with all my heart, and this is one of them.

And Gray says this is an injustice. You can't go forward with a murder case unless you can establish that it is homicide. So you have to establish cause of death. And that forensically is just not possible in this case. Six months after Matt Baker was arrested, his fate changed again, dramatically. Tell me, Father, we thank you so much for our food, for our family, for our friends. Amen. Assistant District Attorney Crawford Long had decided it was too risky to take Matt to trial,

so he dropped the murder charges. The evidence was too speculative. Couldn't get beyond a reasonable doubt with that. It's not, was it a crime and who committed it? you to crime at all. But Matt wasn't off the hook. Carrie's mother, Linda Doolin, had decided to sue him for wrongful death. I'm angry.

And all he's doing is making us more determined to uncover the truth. We've got a guy on the street that's a killer, and I wasn't going to let a guy like that outsmart me or out play me. Linda's attorney Bill Johnston and his investigators were hoping any new evidence they might dig up for the civil case would help rebuild a criminal one. We have to try to do such a good job and have the evidence be so clear and so strong

that a prosecutor looking at it will say, I can do that too. And Johnston had an advantage. In a civil case, he could depose Matt Baker, under oath and on camera. He was foolish enough to allow me to. Did you have a sexual relationship with any woman in the year prior to Carrie's death other than Carrie? No.

He could have played the Fifth Amendment. While you have 911 on the phone, you're dressing, or how long do you take the dresser about it? Again, Pauly, just seconds, not very long at all. All right. He clearly described things that were impossible. Do you think Matt Baker knows what he's up against? No. Beneath her up first like this, towards.

He's used to conning people and having them do what he wants. What Matt didn't anticipate was that Crawford Long and fellow prosecutor Susan Schaefer weren't giving up, because they too believed Matt killed Carrie. The problem was proving it. You get one bite at that apple, and if you get an acquittal, it's over. All the evidence prosecutors had was circumstantial. What they really wanted was the testimony of this woman, Vanessa Bulls, whom they suspected was Matt's lover before Carrie died. How important is Vanessa Bowles to this case? She's key. Key because prosecutors believed she knew some of Matt's secrets. So far, Vanessa has had little to say to law enforcement.

I don't mind talking, y'all, but this is, you know, taking time out of my schedule. The only thing she admitted was that she dated Matt, and only after Carrie died. After, after, yes. After? After. After? Okay. Because I didn't think there was anything wrong.

Okay. Did you believe her? No. Prosecutors had the phone records, and a jewelry store clerk who saw Matt and Vanessa checking out wedding rings just weeks after Carrie died. I wanted a shot at it real bad. Working with prosecutors was Abdon Rodriguez, a savvy investigator with a reputation for convincing the most reluctant witnesses to talk.

That's one of my specialties. Rodriguez carefully studied Vanessa's interview. Did you start to feel like he was kind of pursuing you a little bit? I didn't really want to think that because he seemed happily married. I could tell you were lying. There was information there and I could tell that she had, but she didn't want to give it up. And for good reason, Rodriguez knew Vanessa had everything to lose if she admitted knowing anything about the crime. Why don't you have then talk to Matt Baker, you know?

I said, we're going to have to break her. Matt isn't talking with us anymore. Because she's the one that knows exactly what took place here. But after interviewing her, Vanessa was still holding back. So the prosecution gambled and subpoenaed her to testify before the grand jury. Was that a little risky? We didn't have anything to lose. Crawford Long gave Vanessa immunity, promising not to use her testimony against her.

Abdon Rodriguez added a warning. I know what you did. I know what you know. And I said you better tell the truth that that's because I'm going to be sitting there. If you perjured yourself, said, we will turn around and charge you with it. But on the stand, Vanessa stuck with her story, until this question. I said, did Matt ever tell you anything about Carrie's death? And she said, yes.

He said, I killed her for you. My jaw probably dropped down on my chest. Matt even told Vanessa how he did it. He told her that he had smothered her. Nearly three years after Carrie's death, Crawford Long had all the proof he needed to finally indict Matt Baker. Oh my gosh. It was unbelievable news for Linda Doolin.

I remember just falling to my knees and I was crying and I was overwhelmed. In March 2009, Matt Baker was re-arrested. and charged with Carrie's murder. How do you wish to plead? I'm not guilty. And the state star witness, Vanessa Bowles. I don't think she's still never think. I don't, I mean, there's still more.

The stakes are so high. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. This is what we had been working for. The criminal trial. Nearly four years after claiming he found his wife dead. Carrie's last day of life was on Friday, April 7, 2006. Matt Baker is now on trial for murder.

You'll hear Matt Baker say, his wife has just committed suicide, that he's found a note, but Matt has a variety of stories about what happened that night. Matt was a dangerous man. He had to be stopped before he hurt someone else. Carrie's mother Linda is surrounded by her family. To me, he looked smug. He looked like he's going to get away with this.

You'll hear him repeatedly and consistently say, he never had an affair with Vanessa Bulls. You're going to hear from Vanessa Bulls. You're going to see her. Assistant District Attorney Susan Schaefer promises the jury that they will meet the other woman. She's going to tell you how Matt brought her into their marital bed while Carrie was still alive.

Matt has always denied that affair, so no one in the courtroom was quite prepared was quite prepared for what his defense attorney, Guy James Gray, had to say. Matt Baker was, in fact, having an affair. I got fooled. Got fooled by Matt Baker. When did you realize that Matt was lying about his involvement with Vanessa Bowles? Roughly a month before the trial, something like that.

How tough was that guy? For me, pretty tough. Both of them lied to the families. Both of them lied to the cops, and both of them lied to the cops, and both of them lied to. to try to color up this affair. That doesn't mean Gray says that Matt killed his wife. Instead, Gray goes on the attack and tells the jury

that Carrie was in a precarious emotional state. At the time of her death, she took a mixture of medicine. I was trying to steal myself for the stories they were going to spin about Carrie. She used sleeping pills on a regular basis. She wasn't there to defend herself and that broke my heart. Gray also zeroes in on the lack of evidence.

You've got no physical evidence. You will see a lot of suspicion. You've got no cause of death. You will see a lot of theory. You can't even be really certain that it was a murder. Was it a suicide? Was it a murder? I'd describe it as the most difficult case I've ever prosecuted.

Assistant DA, Crawford Long, expects to get help from a surprising witness. It's all the truth. Everything that is from me is the truth. Matt Baker himself. Matt was unusually talkative in the years before his trial. You're not nervous about talking. If it ever goes to trial, something you might say here could be used against you.

And if it is, then you deal with it at the time. And that time is now. Matt's contradictions and lies are coming back to haunt him. She was awake. She was awake. Correct. She was talking and she said goodbye to you? When I left, she was asleep.

While a defendant can't be forced to testify, everything Matt said already can be used against him at trial. There are interviews with 48 hours. Did you have an affair with Vanessa? Oh, no, I did not. Civil depositions. I proceed to talk to 911 operator as I put her clothes on her. And his statement to police.

I knew she was depressed. I knew she was down. Matt's claim that Carrie was a despondent, dysfunctional parent, is disputed by witness. To me, she never seemed better. After witness. To me, she seemed excited. Even her grief counselor. You did not feel that she was suicidal, is that right?

That's right. Okay. Stay called Linda Duhlin. You're solving us swear the testimony you're giving this matter will be... Three days into the trial, Carrie's mom, Linda Doolin, finally comes face to face with a man she's. face with a man she is convinced killed her daughter. I am... I'm sorry.

Mother of Carrie. Do you need to take a man? No, I'm okay. I apologize. I had this inner dialogue with myself, telling myself to get it together. Linda testifies that after her daughter died, Carrie's grief counselor told her that Carrie had found

crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Carrie feared he was going to harm her. Linda later confronted Matt. He told me that clearly some youth had found his briefcase and spit the pills in there so that they wouldn't have to take them. And that he reported this to security. Security at the youth center where Matt worked. Were you able to make any determination that it was reported?

It was not reported. And there's Matt's claim that in the time it took paramedics to a report, arrive around four minutes. He managed to dress Carrie in her shirt and panties. No, no, no, she's not breathing at all, no pulse or anything. Get her to the floor. And perform CPR. You're going to do it fast and hard 400 times. All while cradling the phone on his shoulder. Do you believe that he is moving her at all while he's on that 911 call? I don't even think he's in the room. Pictures taking the night of Carrie's death also contradict Matt's story.

was on the bed. He told investigators that he found Carrie's body with both arms stretched out flat on the bed. He actually drew a diagram of how he claimed her body to be. On her back, slightly at an angle. Slightly at an angle. There's no way. No way.

The proof, crime scene photos which show an uneven pooling of blood, or levidity, in Carrie's arms. The fact there was more levidity on her left arm as opposed to her right, said what? It said that that that arm. was lower than the rest of her body. Blood sinks to the lowest point. So either her head was on the other side of the bed

with her left arm hanging off, or her head had to be at the foot of the bed with her left arm hanging off, neither of which was what he described in diagrammed. And then there are those computer searches. Matt visited online pharmacies, searching for the sleeping pill Ambien. Is your business, your internet business,

a library or a store? We're not in the information business. We're purely a commercial business. This witness who flew in from Spain, says that pharmacy has one purpose. The number one reason why you find yourself in this situation is because you want to buy something. He says Matt attempted to buy a generic form of Ambien

and placed it in his online shopping cart. But when cross-examined by defense attorney Gray, They went through the process of looking at it, but it was aborted and no purchase of Ambien was made. Correct? Yes. No further question. And there's no evidence that he bought Ambien anywhere else, or that he forced Carrie to take that or any other drug.

If there is not clear-cut proof, then we don't convict. You solemnly swear the testimony you're given this matter to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. But the defense's biggest challenge is yet to come when the state star witness takes the stand. We had no knowledge of what she would say until she'd tell. justified in the courtroom. You really need to turn yourself in, or I'm going to tell what you did. And he said, you better not do that. Do you have a dark curiosity?

Heart starts pounding, horrors, hauntings, and mysteries is a weekly podcast hosted by me, Kailen Moore. Each week, I'll take you on a dark journey through terrifying true urban legends, bizarre, true crime cases, chilling tales of backwoods horror and more. So if you're looking to join a passionate community of the Darkly Curious, Check out Heart Starts Pounding on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, stay curious. This witness is a pretty woman.

Would you please state your name for the record? Yes, it's Vanessa Bowles. She obviously loved the attention. I was raised strict, Southern Baptist. She was a mistress of a preacher. Now, you're not saying that at that time you were pure as the driven snow, right? Oh, no. That's not good anywhere around here.

That's really not good. Four days into Matt Baker's trial, the moment everyone has been waiting for. For the first time, we were going to hear exactly what happened. On the stand, the prosecution star witness, the self-confident, almost smug, 27-year-old teacher, Vanessa Bulls. Were you worried the jury might really dislike her? Oh, yeah. We were very aware of that problem going in. Assistant DA Susan Schaefer has another problem with the witness.

There was a lot available for attack by the defense. Did you tell the truth about the affair? I know I didn't admit to it. For years, Vanessa Bowles lied to everyone about her relationship with Matt Baker. The jury might just dismiss her as a liar. Sure. I completely denied everything. But you were willing to go with this?

We believed that this was in fact the true story. One time I was sitting by myself. and the church. Vanessa begins by telling the jury how she met Matt at church in the fall of 2005. He came in and he just sat down and started talking to me and said whoever finds you is going to be a lucky man. Vanessa was a single mom going through a divorce. He said that he'd counseled people with divorce before. He said he's lost a child and God could get you through anything. She says Matt often complained about Carrie. His wife was so depressed. He said she was a horrible mother, a horrible wife.

They didn't have sex anymore. And at the time were you buying into what he was telling you about Carrie? I was buying into everything. In early March 2006, Matt invited Vanessa to continue counseling at his house. He asked if he could hold my hands to pray. And he did. Then afterwards, he started to kiss me. Then he just took my hand and let me to the bedroom.

It was the first time, she says, they had sex. I was extremely remorseful. I couldn't believe what just happened. But still, the affair continued, and so did Matt's bitterness towards his wife. He referred to her as a fat bitch, said that he wanted her out of his life. Just a few weeks later, Carrie was dead. Within days, Vanessa says, says, Matt told her exactly how he did it.

He said, I'm going to tell you what happened that night one time. Then he said, I never want to talk about it again. Under the guise of a romantic evening, Matt gave Carrie a mix of wine coolers and pills he said were sex stimulants. He said he handcuffed her to the bed and started kissing her and touching her all over until she fell asleep. But Vanessa says, Matt had filled her. the capsules with crushed Ambien to knock his wife out. He said he kissed her on the forehead and either said give Cassidy a hug for me or give Cassidy

a kiss for me. Then he said he got the pillow and put it over her face. Matt thought Carrie was dead, Vanessa says. So he was startled when Carrie suddenly gasped for air. He said, oh, sh-h-h-it. And then he said he put the pillow on her face. but then he said he did this with his hand where her nose was, so he would be sure to suffocate her. I know what my child was screaming inside of her head. She was screaming out for her babies.

I know that. I know that. Even more devastating for Linda Doolin. Her daughter didn't have to die. Vanessa admits she knew Matt was plotting to kill Carrie. He talked about maybe putting something in a milkshake, making it look like she'd hung herself, maybe doing a drive-by shooting, make it look like she overdosed on sleeping pills, tampering with the brakes of her car. Vanessa even knew the day Matt intended to murder his wife, April 7, 2006. And you didn't report that to anybody? No. Vanessa could have saved your daughter.

Yes, I know it. I know it. She knew what day your daughter was going to die. I know. And she never told anybody. I know. Two weeks later, a smiling Vanessa Bulls was by Matt's side, helping to chaperone Kenzie's 10th birthday party.

Has it not occurred to you that if he'd killed one wife, he might kill another? I thought he would, but he promised me that he would be so happy that he would never do that. She continued dating him and kept her mouth shut. Not only had I known about this and not done the right thing, in truth, who would believe me? He was a preacher. And so I felt like I was stuck. And even after she broke up with Matt months later, when police began looking into Carrie's

death, he started saying, I killed my wife for you, and now you're leaving. Vanessa says she was afraid to talk. At that point, I was worried that he would come after me and put a bullet in my head to be blunt. If what she said was the truth, it was pretty dramatic and pretty damning. Matt Baker's lawyer, Guy James Gray, says Vanessa is a liar, pure and simple. I don't believe much of what she said. And when it's his turn to cross-examine Vanessa...

Mr. Gray? Gray attacks her credibility. Was that statement true or not true? It was absolutely false. I was untruthful. I was still keeping that part in. I'm pretty sure I denied that completely. Isn't it possible that Vanessa Bowles is finally telling the truth?

Possible, sure. Not very likely, though. Mr. Gray, call your first witness. When the defense presents its case, Gray only calls one witness. A forensic expert who speculates that traces of DNA found on the suicide note might be Cary's. Out of all of the people that you tested, which one had the highest probability of a touch? Carrie Baker appears to have the highest number. Nothing further, Jim.

Gray hopes this will create out in the minds of the jurors. If the primary source of DNA on that piece of paper was Carrie Baker's, then she must have taken her own life. It's now in the hands of the jury. The jury started deliberating this afternoon. I felt we had proven our case. Right now we're waiting for the jury to return a verdict. I was concerned how the jury would feel about Manasseh.

Seven women and five men now deciding if the former preacher is guilty of killing his wife. As they deliberate into the night. We have a note from the jury. The jurors have a series of questions for the judge. Is it possible for us to see Matt Baker's complete deposition video? It made me very, very nervous. We've received another note from the jury.

We were concerned. Do we have to find guilt by use of drugs and suffocating? It was frightening. Can we have a transcript of Vanessa Bull's testimony, please? Ease, you know, it may be that they can't figure it out. As the hours went on, I became more nervous. I went off by myself and just prayed a lot. Oh my gosh, what if?

What if they don't convict him? What do you do? You're always nervous until they come back in. There's no such thing as a slam done. Especially in this case, after prosecutors lost their chance, to put Matt Baker on the hot seat. It's the only case I ever tried that I didn't put my client on the stand.

Defense attorney Guy James Gray couldn't risk it, he says, and for good reason. They had a trap, you know. The trap? This fireman's dummy at just about Carrie's weight when she died. This is very close to what Matt faced trying to move Carrie.

Yes, quite close. The prosecution's plan to have Matt Baker demonstrate in front of the jury, what he claims he did after he found his wife dead and naked in their bed. 911, they have an emergency? When I'm on the phone with the operator, I'm putting her clothes on her and taking her off the bed. Phone to his shoulder. Her lips are blue, hands are cold.

Dressing her without sounding out of breath. No, no, no, she's not breathing at all, no pulse or anything. All right. Okay. Once he says that he has her dressed... Okay, put her on the floor. Correct. He has to move. How did you get her off the bed?

I put my hands under her shoulders and pulled. He moved her. There's a reason that the term dead weight is used. I'm going to need your help. And all this is happening in what period of time? Oh, I measured it at a little less than 90 seconds. I don't know that Houdini could have done that, and I didn't think he could either. Because Matt didn't testify, the jury never got to see him do the demonstration.

And as the hours tick by, it seems like Graham made a little bit more. Seems like Gray made a wise call keeping Matt off the stand. Generally, the longer the time, it's better for the defendant. More than seven hours go by. All right, bring in the jury. And finally, jurors reach a verdict. We, the jury, find the defendant, Matt D. Baker, guilty of the offense of murder.

Guilty, a first-degree murder. I felt absolute relief that Matt Baker would never again be in a position to take a life or destroy lives. What did you tell your client? Since the day he walked in my office and told me he was lying. I talked to him only for strict legal necessities, and I had no other conversations. Incredibly, the attorney who once so believed in his client

stopped trusting Matt once he confessed to the affair. You cannot be a good lawyer for somebody if you don't believe him. And that's a position. I was in. Prior to trial, Gray had asked to be taken off the case. I gave him my advice. They needed to go get a different lawyer to handle it. I did not want to be there.

But Matt insisted that Gray remained his lawyer. The judge made me be there, and they requested that I be there, and I did my duty. Guy, are you sorry you took on this case? Oh, yes. I've never in my life been forced to go to trial. in a case that I didn't think I was on the right side. Hardest thing I've ever done. Still, Gray says he defended Matt the best he could under the circumstances.

I still think I did a decent, credible lawyer job, but I had no heart in it. At sentencing, Linda Dooling gets the last word. I'm talking to you, Matt, today, okay? You haven't looked at me in almost four years. Can you look at me today? You murdered the mother of your children. But the most tragic victims, Matt, are Kinsey and Grace. Those sweet, sweet babies.

Matt Baker's sentence? 65 years with the possibility of parole. Are you finally ready to admit that you killed your wife? No, because I didn't. I did not suffocate, did not shove pills down her throat. did not do anything to hurt my wife. You're saying that Vanessa Bowles lied about it all. Absolutely.

Why would she lie about this? She thought she was going to be with me, and I walked away from the relationship, and she was upset and mad. How close did Matt Baker come to getting away with me? Incredibly close. If the Doolins hadn't pursued him, he certainly would have. The Dooland's ordeal was not over yet.

Kenzie and Grace were still living with Matt's parents. They've been taught to hate us. We were portrayed as the people who caused their father to go to prison. A year and a half after Matt went to prison, Jim and Linda were back in court, seeking custody of their granddaughters. The odds were not in our favor. To their surprise, they won. This is Grace's room.

This is her hangout. Now they say their home is. the girls home. Grace is 12. She loves the arts and she's in band and she plays the piano. Kinsey will be 17 next week and she is very excited about the prospect of college. She's a hoot to be around. All we want now is for the girls to be teenagers and we never want them to feel like they have to choose who to love. I live with three women. And the other night, they were all laughing and giggling and just having a grand old time.

That was a symphony. I see Carrie. I see her every day in her daughters. She would be relishing what we're experiencing. dancing.