48 Hours - Both Sides Rest: Inside The Lori Vallow Daybell Trial

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Both the prosecution and the defense have rested their cases. Hear the disturbing texts between Lori and Chad that prosecutors say allude to inflicting pain and their beliefs in a death percentage system which indicated whether someone was close to death. That dramatic testimony and more from Lori, Chad, and Tammy Daybell’s close friends. CBS News National Correspondent Jonathan Vigliotti and 48 Hours producer Liza Finley bring you back inside the courtroom and share insights into the shocking witness testimonies and the new evidence brought in front of the jurors.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. Thank you for listening. A quick word. Since recording this episode, both the prosecution and defense rested their cases.

In fact, the defense opted not to call any witnesses. Closing arguments are scheduled for Thursday, May 11th. she said that she would cut me up and something about that she wasn't in the mental place to do that but that she would get herself in that place to be able to do it but that she didn't want to have to because it would be so messy and there would be so much blood and bleach and something about trash bags. And that she would bury me worse. She would know and would never find me.

I'm Jonathan Vigliotti. You just heard the voice of Audrey Baratero, a former friend of Lori Vallow Daybell's who claims Lori threatened to kill her. We'll hear more from her during this week's special 48 Hours Update, along with other people who were close to Lori and Chad. This is the fifth week of testimony in Lori Daybell's trial for the murders of her two youngest children, Joshua J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan. She's accused, along with her husband Chad Daybell, of J.J. and Tylee's murders, as well as the murder of Chad's late wife, Tammy Daybell. They've both pleaded not guilty, and Chad Daybell's trial will occur at a later

date. The 48 Hours team has been reviewing hours of court audio to bring you the key moments from the trial. And this week, 48 Hours producer Liza Finley is joining us. Liza led production on all three of our prior television episodes on this case. She was the first 48 producer I worked with. Welcome, Liza. Glad to have you here. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. It's great to be here. It's been a long road. It has. And this has been a difficult road and a difficult case from the start. And I wonder how it compares with other ones you've covered. Well, you know, I've been reporting on true crime for so many years, but some get lodged in your memory, and this is one of them.

We have been on this story since it broke over three years ago, watching it unfold as it did, you know, ending with the gruesome deaths of the two children. And that was heartbreaking. Everyone, you and I and everybody who'd been covering this was rooting for a happy ending. And there have been so many unanswered questions along the way. And I finally feel, listening to this riveting testimony, that we were finally getting a clearer picture of what investigators say happened and why. One thought I've wrestled with throughout this journey goes back to a Time magazine cover I

remember seeing in 1991. It's a totally black page with the title, The Nature of Evil. And the subtitle reads on this black page, does it exist or do bad things just happen? reads on this black page, does it exist or do bad things just happen? Wow. If bad things just happen, a lot of bad things happened in this case. Yeah. I mean, sadly, after listening to the prosecution, this case makes me think that maybe evil does exist. And we are hearing how it presented itself in the testimony of witness after witness. And let's get right into it. We heard a pretty shocking claim from Lori's friend, Audrey Baratero, earlier. What do we know about her? Well, according to her testimony, Audrey Baratero met Chad at a religious conference around 2018

and developed a friendship rooted in their shared religious beliefs. She said she read some of Chad's books and heard about his visions and past lives, which she says Chad claimed he'd lived over a million years. He said that he had been Methuselah, and he said that he had been an apostle at the time of Jesus Christ, James. Okay, so just to clarify, because I feel like we need some clarification here. Baratero says Chad claimed he was James, the brother of Jesus Christ. Yes, yeah. And that's not all.

Baratero says he told her that she had been someone special in her past life, too. Jesus Christ's wife, Joanna. Okay, so where to begin? That's a major claim to make. And then it's a major claim to believe. Barotero believed him? She says she did. Here's Lori's defense attorney, Jim Archibald, questioning her about that.

At the time, I thought it could be true because I trusted him. You thought it could be true because it sounded cool, huh? Is that a yes? Yes. It sounded amazing, right? Yes. I wonder what that little chuckle Audrey Barotero gives at the end of that really means. Maybe it's suddenly coming into clear focus when she hears how unsettling all of this is. Dare I say crazy? I mean, I guess if I were Jesus's wife or brother in a past life, if I really believe that, I think it was pretty cool too. I think we all would, but it is a little out there. So that's what Lori's defense attorney,

Jim Archibald, points out. In all these past lives, Baratero says Chad told her about, Chad is always someone important. She says Chad does eventually ask her to befriend Lori, right? Well, Baratero says she did befriend Lori. They met at a religious conference and developed a friendship over the phone. Baratero says she was invited to participate in something called a casting ceremony in which an evil spirit is cast out. Lori told her that Chad's wife, an evil spirit is cast out. Lori told her that Chad's wife, Tammy Daybell, had essentially an evil spirit living inside her, though Baratero was uncomfortable, and she told Lori she did not want to participate. According to Baratero, that didn't go too well.

She highly pressured me, saying, you're supposed to be my friend, you're supposed to help me, like Chad asked you to be my friend. And I reiterated that I didn't want to. And she kept on. So it sounds from Baratero's testimony that Lori was convinced there was an evil spirit that had taken over Tammy and needed to be removed. Liza, where did Lori say Tammy's spirit was? And what would happen if it was expelled? Prosecutor Tanya Rawlings asked Barotero those very questions. But as you'll hear at the end of this clip, Barotero seems to be saying she thinks Chad and Lori had more in their

minds than just removing an evil spirit. She was saying that she was in a cage or a jail or something like this. And it was the idea of like, she needs to be freed and held because some person's overtaken her body. Okay. And so she wasn't in her body anymore. According to them. According to Lori. And do you know what would happen if this dark spirit was pushed out? At the end of the friendship, when I heard Chad Daybell say something to the effect of, still alive or something like that, I

realized that they must have a different idea. Even further. Even further. And what did that mean? That they didn't want, that they didn't intend for the person to be helped, I would think. That they didn't want the person to live. I mean, to hear someone say Chad was talking about whether people were still alive or not, prosecutors must find that pretty damning. Yes, but I don't think that's the most damning thing to come out of Baratero's testimony.

Right. That sound that we played earlier where Baratero alleges Lori threatened to kill her. When did that happen, Liza? So Baratero says she went to visit Lori and her niece in Hawaii in October 2019. And on that trip, she learned Tammy Daybell had passed away. The trip was unpleasant. She says Lori was agitated. She was snippy. And Baratero returned to Idaho with Lori's niece. She says they were staying at Lori's house when she decided to end the friendship with Lori once and for all. I told her that I was going to go upstairs and pack my bag and just go to bed early because I didn't want to spend more time with her. And as I went to go and do that, I asked her the question, is there anything weird going on that I don't know anything and she said no so I took her to work

because I'm a trusting person and she as soon as I turned to start to go up the stairs she started laughing the kind of laugh as if you're laughing at someone or think something's hilarious and she said to me you're so naive

I do trust you you're like a little child you'll believe anything anyone would tell you and she said you think the world is all unicorns and rainbows unicorns and rainbows this allegedly from a woman who weeks after her children were missing was seen in photos on a beach in Hawaii getting married. I could just listening to that hear how tense that interaction was. And we know the conversation got worse. Barotero says Lori then threatened to kill her and cut her body up. But Lori's attorney

went after Barotero's credibility here. He points out that she had previously tested by before the grand jury and failed to mention this incident. We want to play this exchange between Barrett Tarrow and Lori's attorney, Jim Archibald. Do you remember taking an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Do you remember that? Yes. And do you remember your testimony that you did not say anything like this? remember your testimony that you did not say anything like this? I was scared and she had said that if you ever tell anyone I'll come to find you in the dark of night. So you now want the jury to believe that even though you previously testified under oath and nothing of this sort was talked

about, that you come here today and say you're so scared that's why you didn't previously testify about it. Objection, Your Honor. Argumentative. What was your question? You want the jury to believe that you just didn't make this last crap up? I did not make it up. During her testimony, Barataro was very emotional on the stand.

And we heard her mention Lori's niece a couple of times. That niece is Melanie Polowski. There are two Melanies in this case, right, Liza? It can get a little confusing. Right, it really can. Lori had two women named Melanie she was very, very close to. One was her niece, Melanie Palowski, formerly known as Melanie Boudreau. And then there is Lori's friend, Melanie Gibb. Now, you remember that Gibb is the friend who testified that Lori told her to lie and to tell the police that JJ was staying with her when they were looking for him in November of 2019. She's also the one who recorded that secret conversation between herself,

Lori, and Chad that she later turned over to the investigators. So sticking with Melanie Pawlowski, her husband Ian was also called to the stand last week. What was his role in this case? But Ian was also called to the stand last week. What was his role in this case? Ian Palowski married Melanie in late November 2019. And according to his testimony, Melanie, quote, unquote, dumped all of her fears about what was happening with Tylee and JJ. And were some of the things you heard regarding Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow?

Yes. Did you have concerns for their safety or their well-being after what you learned? Yes. So what she told him scared him so much that he went to law enforcement with his concerns, and they asked him to record conversations that may be relevant to the investigation, which he did. Those recordings were not played. The judge did not allow them admitted into evidence. So we don't really know what was said. No, no, we don't. Did Lori or Chad ever instruct you regarding whether or not to cooperate with law enforcement?

Yes. And what were you instructed? To cooperate as little as possible to avoid them. There was just kind of this arrogant, flippant attitude toward law enforcement. You know, it was just none of their business, and we needed to get out of town was another thing that they instructed us to do. And did those instructions come from both Chad and Lori? It was mostly Chad pushing us to get out of town.

Both Chad and—Chad had a more serious tone. Lori was presented this lighthearted attitude toward cooperating with law enforcement to kind of avoid it. And was part of that telling you that some of the law enforcement officers were dark spirits was Detective Hermosillo, who you might recall from the first week of trial when he testified that he found Lori's children buried in Chad's backyard. Polowski says he was told that Hermosillo was one of the zombie officers and that law enforcement was out to get them. Liza, what else did Ian hear? I mean, it's just unbelievable. But Ian also testified that he heard Lori say that she could cast out Satan. Lori said that she was able to cast Satan out by folding him up into the shape of a taco and locking him in a box in Antarctica. I don't know how to react to that.

So I think we just leave it right where it is. When we come back, testimony from those close to Chad's wife, Tammy Daybell. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of them. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story

that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch.

It was called Candyman. Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, early and ad-free on Wondery Plus and the Wondery app. Welcome back. I'm here with producer Liza Finley,

and I'd like to focus on Tammy Daybell, whose birthday incidentally passed during the trial. She would have been 53. Specifically, I'd like to narrow in on her friends. Alice and Todd Gilbert, friends of Chad and Tammy, knew them well from church. They were close. Alice testified that she saw Tammy twice a week, while Todd was even a central character in one of Chad's books. What else did they have to say, Liza?

Well, when Tammy died, the Gilberts say they were called soon after, and Chad made a request that Alice just could not abide. She couldn't do it. And what did Chad tell you? He told me not to tell anybody and to wait for about an hour. And I said, well, I need to call the bishop. And he said, no, don't call. But I still did. well, I need to call the bishop.

And he said, no, don't call. But I still did. And also, the Gilberts say they learned Laurie had entered the picture shortly thereafter, very shortly thereafter, about a week after Tammy died. We asked him how he was doing, and he said, actually, I'm doing really good, and that he'd met the woman he was going to marry.

And you recall this being around October 26th, and Tammy had just passed away or been declared dead on the 19th? Yes. Did you find, did it surprise you that he seemed to be doing so well? Yes, we were shocked. Well, you can hear the emotion in Alice's voice. It was obviously very shocking. And the Gilberts say that they met Lori at church,

and then they had the new couple over at their home, and they both said that Chad and Lori appeared incredibly affectionate, giggling, touching, like they were teenagers, in a way that they'd never seen Chad behave with Tammy. It was during that visit that Gilbert said Chad told them something really big. Yes, we asked her if she had had any children, and she said that she'd had many, and that Chad spoke up and said that she had a daughter that just passed on. And so we didn't really ever get a straight answer of how many children she did have.

Wow, so just to punctuate this moment, because I think it's so critical, Chad allegedly told her Lori's daughter died. And now this is before Tylee had been found. Alice also testified Chad, after Lori's arrest, tried to backtrack that he ever said Lori had a daughter who died. Here's Alice recounting that conversation she says she had with Chad. You told me when we met that she had just lost a daughter. And he said, no, I didn't. I said, yes, you did. And so I knew that it was Tylee that he was talking to me about. I asked him also, where are they? I asked him, where are the kids, Chad? And doesn't Tylee want a life, a job, a car, a boyfriend? And he said she didn't like people and she didn't like me.

And what struck you about those statements? Because he said didn't. He is the past tense. He is the past tense. Very chilling testimony. We also heard about Tammy's life insurance policies. She had two. One for $300,000 that she and Chad had purchased.

And another offered by the school district Tammy worked for. Those life insurance policies were both paid out, according to Detective Mattingly. How much did Chad get in total, Liza? He was paid out a total of $430,000. You know, if Tammy had died just two months, this is so interesting, if Tammy had died just two months earlier or any date before September 1st, it would have been a lot less. And why is that? Well, Angela Yancey, the school district's payroll and benefits administrator, testified that on September 8th, Tammy changed her coverage. In fact, she maxed out her coverage

at five times her salary and even added an additional option, which increased the policy benefit to $130,000. Okay, so maxing out a life insurance policy less than two months before you die is definitely suspicious. Do we know why she did that? No, we don't. But we do know two days after Tammy died, Chad Daybell reached out to Yancey to claim the life insurance. Here she is testifying that that was unusually soon. I explained to him that we could not submit a life claim until we had the original death certificate to go with it.

And he said, that's okay, I've already ordered eight of them. And in your experience, how many death certificates do most people order? When they share that information with me, I've heard maybe three at the most. Three at the most. And Chad Daybell ordered eight death certificates, a life insurance policy that Chad wanted to claim less than 72 hours after his wife died as well. To a jury, this could all be, I would think, suspicious, especially when we heard Detective Mattingly testify that he believed Chad was living off the proceeds of those policies while he and Lori were in Hawaii. Liza, I know there's one more witness who we have to talk about. He testified to what could be some of the most damning evidence we've heard thus far. Yes, there was compelling testimony from an FBI agent named Doug Hart.

Amongst other investigative work on the case, Hart spent more than 200 hours combing through Lori's iCloud and found texts, voicemails, and photos that helped them piece together the relationship between Chad and Lori. Well, from the beginning, it was clear that the relationship between, the romantic relationship between Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow was the driving force behind the crimes that are alleged to have taken place. So the text messages reveal that Chad and Lori were romantically involved before either of their spouses died. After the affair began, there then began to be communications regarding the deaths of Charles Vallow, Tammy Daybell, J.J. Vallow, and Tylee Ryan. Hello entirely, Ryan.

Some of the most shocking texts revealing this relationship were sent months before Tammy died or just days after Lori's previous husband, Charles, was shot by her brother, Alex Cox, in what he described as self-defense. These texts were often romantic, sometimes sexual, punctuated with heart and kiss emojis? Yes, and what really stood out to me in Hart's testimony was his reference to the term obstacles used by Chad Daybell in regard to the couple's former spouses, Charles Bellow and Tammy Daybell and Lori's kids. And what's really interesting, the text also demonstrates Chad's feelings of being trapped. Listen to this text from July 26, just two and a half weeks after Charles died. From Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow. Tonight I figured out who I feel like. I'm a grown-up version of Harry Potter, who has to live with the Dudleys in his little space under the stairs.

Every few weeks I get to escape and have amazing adventures with my goddess lover, but then I have to return to my place under the stairs, feeling trapped. But I sense permanent freedom is coming. Then there's this text exchange before Tammy died. From Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell, I'm so alone without you, it is devastating. Line 824 from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow, I feel so alone too. We are surrounded by telestial relatives that are simply obstacles. I'm so sick of it.

Line 823 from Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell, me too. What is it that you really want? Line 824 from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow. I want to be with you. That is my greatest hope and dream. I would happily join you tomorrow if it felt like heaven would not strike us down. And the way they talked about physical bodies, spirits, zombies in these texts is interesting. Here's an exchange between Lori and her brother, Alex Cox, referencing Charles on March 26th of 2019. This is four months before Alex would shoot Charles. And a reminder to our listeners, Alex died of what authorities say were natural causes on December 12th, 2019.

Text from Alex Cox to Lori Vallow. Correct. Charles's body is alive. Line 1762 from Alex Cox to Lori Vallow. What did you learn? Line 1761 from Lori Vallow to Alex Cox. A lot. Still working on it.

We'll call you later. Why was this series of the SMS included in your summary? These short texts actually contain a lot of information regarding what was taking place in the investigation. How so? Chad Daybell had identified Charles Vallow as somebody who was a dark entity whose body had been possessed by any number of spirits, which were named with various names. And so this first text, when Alex Cox is reaching out to

Lori Vallow, he's affirming that Charles Vallow's body, his physical body, is still alive, and inquiring what Lori Vallow had learned about that, which she replied she had learned a lot and would contact him later. Here's another text. This is on July the 30th, 2019. Text from Chad David to Lori Vallow. Yes, we might need to release a little steam when we talk.

Anyway, this is the chart that checks what percentage mortals are still in their body. This number system is a little hard to follow, but Hart testified that the numbers Chad refers to is a, quote, death percentage. It sounds like the closer a death percentage was to 100 or to a zero, the closer that person was to death. Lori's defense attorney, John Thomas, asks Hart this in cross-examination. All right, and you testified today that either being a low percentage or a high percentage could mean death. Is that correct? That's my understanding. All right. So basically, isn't it your understanding that you really don't have an understanding

about what's going on here as far as these percentages go? I disagree. I think that Chad Daybell's writings were inconsistent, but it's clear that he designated J.J. and Ty Lee and Tammy Daybell as he had them in his death percentages, and all three of those individuals ended up dead. Okay. It's not possible that this was all about fantasy,

that it's more of a Dungeons and Dragons, pull out your 64-sided dice type of thing. Is that possible? Absent the three people being killed, perhaps. Here's more from Agent Hart. So my question is, what happens when a person reaches a zero percentage? According to the case, that means that they're ready for death. They're ready for death.

They're ready for death, or they're dead, or they're what? Well, clearly at that particular point in time, J.J. wasn't dead, but within six weeks he was. A person's number reaches zero. They are ready to die. There are three total conversations or sets of text strings regarding the death percentage for J.J., Tylee, and Tammy Daybell. There's this one, there's another that occurs on July 30th, and then the third one occurs on August 10th. Listen to this. Listen to this. And what information did Chad Daybell provide to Lori Vallow about a number associated with Tylee?

He indicates that she is at 0.13. And what number did Chad Daybell provide about JJ's death percentage? 99.99. He also mentioned a number system alluding to turn up the physical pain inflicted on Tylee. Text from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow. Quote, she is at 0.13. I turned up the pain to 10 and placed a spiritual virus in her. Here's more from those texts.

Now, turning to a text communication on July 29, 2019, do you see that on slide 37? I do. Okay. Why did you include this text communication in your summary? I included it because of its references to causing pain to children. Okay. Can you please read the text communications into the records?

Line 1877 from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow. One question. Do you want me to cause pain yet to those two threes you're riding with? Line 1876, from Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell. Probably hold off on then till we arrive. They will be a mistake to deal with, but I'll text you if they start acting up and we can zap them. Line 1875 from Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell. Miserable, not mistake.

Line 1872 from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow. Sounds great. Yes, if they are going to act up, we'll at least give them a reason to scream. I love, cherish, treasure, and adore you. The wonderful memories just keep coming back. The prosecuting attorney asked Hart why these texts were included in the presentation. He prepared to accompany his testimony. The references to hurting children and giving them a reason to scream are relevant. Okay. In any of these references, and I think you've mentioned a couple of times that concept,

did you ever see Roy Vallow protest, like, don't do that? No. Listen to this. And in this situation, looking at all of the messaging and communication that Lori Vallow had, did you ever see any evidence that J.J. Vallow was alive after September of 2019? No. Did you ever see any evidence that Lori was looking for him

or trying to support him or help him after September 22, 2019? No. As for Tylee, did you ever see after September 8th of 2019 in any of her email accounts, any of the information, her text message, that Lori Vallow was looking for her? No. Did you ever find any evidence that Lori Vallow had that Tylee was alive after September 8th of 2019? No. And what's really interesting, based on these texts,

Lori doesn't show much sympathy for those affected by the deaths around her either. Hart says she ignores JJ's grandmother, Kay Woodcock's pleas for Lori to let JJ attend Charles' memorial service. And then in another instance, from the day after Alex shoots Charles, there were texts from Lori to Charles's sons, Zach and Cole, informing them of their father's death, but not telling them how he died. The son's text asking for answers. Isn't that correct? Right.

And Lori was not responding to them. But according to Hart, she was still texting Chad. Here's an exchange from just three days after Charles Vallow died. From Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow, I need so badly to just gently kiss you for hours. Line 2888. From Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow, it would likely lead to other activities. would likely lead to other activities. Line 2887, from Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell, likely or luckily, line 2886, from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow, it would luckily lead to nakedness.

It's quite a text. And it's clear that Charles' sons are incredibly frustrated by the radio silence based on this text from the next day. They also express concern that they haven't heard from the children, Laurie's oldest son Colby and Tylee and JJ. Okay, Laurie, it's been three days. You let us know our father passed away over a text message. Three days and we haven't heard from anyone. He passed away over a text message. Three days and we haven't heard from anyone.

The only information we have is that one text from you saying he passed away. You disappeared after that. We need any information you have. What happened? When did it happen? How did it happen? Where is he now? Are there any funeral plans?

And can Zach and I be part of it? We talk to him all the time and now he's gone. He was our dad and we loved him very much. We deserve answers. Also, why have you been the only one to contact us? We haven't heard from Colby or Tylee. I know they are affected too. I called Colby recently too, but he didn't answer.

Is JJ safe and what does he know? I need to be kept in the loop about this all. This isn't a nonchalant topic you can just throw a text at and be done with it. This really is heartbreaking. You know, those two sons lost their father and there's such a lack of empathy and caring about him. And Chad shows a similar lack of empathy regarding the death of his wife, Tammy. On the night she died, he wrote to Lori saying, not fun without you. And the next morning, the two talk how much they miss each other. Line 515, from Lori Vallow to Chad Daybell,

that's true. I do feel you. I feel lovesick. I can't sleep. I don't want to eat. I just want you. It's so consuming. Line 514, from Chad Daybell to Lori Vallow, I know exactly how you feel. I'm feeling sad, but it isn't for the reason everyone thinks. I mean, what's clear here, at least from the perspective of these children, they were ghosted as they were trying to find answers about what happened to their father. Lori and Chad having these, at times, what seem like romantic conversations, very much active as Laurie is being very quiet with whatever did unfold with Charles Vallow to Charles's sons. The web of people impacted by this case only continues to grow. We're going to end with this clip from Hart.

In his cross-examination with Laurie's defense attorney, John Thomas, he asks Hart this. As a whole, as the state has indicated, you reviewed all these texts, or a large number of these texts. Isn't it true that Lori was, for all intents and purposes, a pretty good mother. With the exception of what happened to her children, yes. Our team at 48 Hours will continue our reporting on the Lori Bellow Daybell trial. We'll be back next week with the latest coverage and analysis throughout the trial exclusively on the 48 Hours podcast. In the meantime, be sure to follow and listen to 48 Hours wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Liza, thanks so much for being with us today. We'll check back with you soon. Thanks so much, Jonathan. It was great talking to you.

If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey. yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defence attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access,

I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly?

Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bolder risk-takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal

first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party. So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early

and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet.