48 Hours - Caged Kids

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

Four separate reports on defendants who were children when they committed their crimes: Josh Phillips, convicted for the murder of an eight-year-old playmate; Sean Pica, convicted for murdering the father of his friend; Lisa Warzeka, convicted for armed robbery; Rebecca Hopfer, convicted for killing her newborn child. "48 Hours" correspondents Peter Van Sant, Harold Dow, Erin Moriarty and Susan Spencer report. This classic "48 Hours" episode last aired on 3/31/2004. Watch all-new episodes of “48 Hours” on Saturdays and stream on demand on Paramount+.

You made a choice, and that choice was to be thugs. They were children, all sentenced to hard time. Lisa, a promising athlete. Give me all your . She's the girl behind the mask. No, it wasn't scary. She's serving seven years. It was just sad.

Sean was 16 when he killed his friend's father. She was being abused. I was a kid with braces on his teeth that thought he was helping a friend in trouble. He got 8 to 24. I was introduced to a world. I had no idea existed. Also... We're talking about a 17-year-old girl.

Will Rebecca go free? You've been here for how many years? Eight years? So as far as you're concerned, the state then will be setting free a cold-blooded murderer. Kids, tried and convicted as adults. Should we throw away the key? What happened to the day? eight-year-old shoot somebody.

You put them in prison for the rest of their life? 48 hours investigates caged kids. To leave around between 7 and 7.30 to get there when visiting hours began around nine. Missy Phillips is on her way to visit her son Josh in the Marion Correctional Facility in Lowell, Florida. I mean, I love my son. I just, I want to support him and I miss him.

It's a trip Missy has taken once a week. every week for the last five years. And then he's always sad when I leave him there. It's hard because it's going to be another week. I love my mom. She's real strong. 20-year-old Josh Phillips has spent a quarter of his life behind bars. I'm glad that she's staying with me, though. And will remain in prison until the day he dies.

When you look into his eyes, when you see his face today, what do you see? I see my son. I see the little boy that I saw grow up. Josh is a monster in my mind because normal people don't kill their playmates. Steve and Sheila Clifton's daughter, Maddie, was just eight years old when she vanished from her Jacksonville, Florida, neighborhood in November 1998. Maddie, please come home. Mom and Daddy and Jesse are ready for you to come home. I'm going in the woods if anybody wants to go with me.

48 hours was there as thousands of people search for Maddie. Maddie is going to come home. She will come home. There was no night and day. It was just this nightmare. It was horrible. It took seven days for Steve and Sheila Clifton to learn what happened to their daughter. We found Maddie Clifton this morning.

She was dead. Oh my God. Maddie Clifton had been right across the street the whole time. Her body stuffed under 14-year-old Josh Phillips waterbed. Just a brutal, senseless murder. Josh told police that while playing, he accidentally hit Maddie with a baseball. He told the police that he carried her in the house and took her to his room and put her on the floor. This is Josh's dad, Steve Phillips, in 1998. And that she started to make noises and he got

scared even more. Scared because Josh was afraid of getting in trouble. In a panic, Josh hit Maddie with a baseball bat and stabbed her to stop her screaming. The case of the state of Florida versus Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips. Josh, who had no history of violence was charged as an adult with murder. We the jury find the defendant guilty of murder in the first degree. Mr. Phillips in the custody, please. In the early 1990s, most states, including Florida, changed their laws, making it easier to try juveniles as adults,

putting the emphasis on punishment rather than rehabilitation. It was in this climate in 1999 that Josh Phillips was sentenced to life, to life without parole. He was convicted justly. 48 hours interviewed the Clifton's a week after Josh was convicted. Does Josh deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison? I believe so.

I don't know what should happen, but I'd like to get out. This was 15-year-old Josh before he was transferred to state prison. Why did this happen? I don't know. I'm not. I don't think I had the answer.

And after five years in prison... I really don't know. Not really. Josh still doesn't have the answer. Were you angry? Were you an angry young man at 14? I had anger in me, I guess. And now, maybe I should get some kind of counseling or something,

to find out what's wrong with me. But since he's been incarcerated, Josh hasn't had any counseling. to understand why he killed Maddie. I'm just sitting here, you know. All I'm doing is sitting here eating, doing stuff at work, and that's all I do every day, and it's gonna be like that pretty much until I die. Maybe one day he's going to realize the severity

of how many people he affected by doing what he did. Sheila Clifton's life has been dramatically changed since her daughter Maddie was murdered. After 25 years of marriage, Sheila and Steve Clifton are now divorced. My husband, he was so struck in the grief. We just went in totally different directions. Watching her grow up, the dreams and the hopes that we had are gone. And that's a hard thing for Mom to accept.

What do you think about when you think of Maddie? I think about it's a little girl. little girl didn't deserve to die. And I try to think, what the hell was going through my head, you know? I screwed up my life. I screwed up hers. He's not going to have a chance to do anything. It's all because of me. I believe in redemption.

I believe that there needs to be a second chance. Florida State Senator Stephen Geller may hold the key to Josh Phillips' future. We have to start recognizing that children are not just short adults. What happens if an eight-year-old shoot somebody? Do you put them in prison for the rest of their life? Under current Florida law, you can. I'm sorry, I think that's wrong. If we passed today's bill, we'll be able to do something about that.

He has introduced a bill that would make first-time violent juvenile offenders serving life sentences eligible for parole after eight years. Charles Manson gets the opportunity to have parole. Why should this 14-year-old at the time of the act? why should they not have the opportunity for parole? For now, though, prison, not parole, is Josh's reality. I was just lately the life sentence is just hitting me kind of. Every day you see a big line in the medical, every day for pills and stuff. You see a bunch of guys with walkers and stuff, and he looks like that, that might be me another 50 years.

Since Josh has been away, his father, Steve, died in a car accident. Josh loved his dad and Steve loved Josh. so I had to stay strong for Josh. I got mom now, but you know, she's all got left. But with all that has happened, Josh has done well in prison. Despite living in the general adult population since he was 15, he says he was never sexually assaulted. No, I've never really had any physical problems in prison.

Josh has gone on to receive his high school diploma and now works as a law clerk advising fellow inmates. He wants to do well. He wants to make something. to make something of himself. What do you believe should happen to Josh? I believe he should have a chance to get out someday. And surprisingly, today...

I don't hate him. I hate what he did. Even Maddie's mother has had a change of heart. Do you think that Josh should ever get a second chance at life? Maybe one day. Being put away in prison for life, I can't imagine. I don't think any child should have to suffer that. I don't think it's appropriate to lock them up and throw away the key.

And Senator Giller may have an unexpected ally. Just last week, Florida's conservative Governor Jeb Bush said he is seriously considering supporting Geller's bill. But if the bill passes, it may affect only future cases, meaning Josh's life sentence would remain. His only hope would be a grant of clemency. What would you do if you had a second chance? If I got out, I'd owe the world a lot, you know, because they gave me a second chance, and I'd try to do whatever I could to repay him.

And so I don't know what I deserve a chance or not, but I know I want the chance. Sean thought he was helping a friend in trouble. I really didn't think of the repercussions. He's had 16 years to think about it. I mean, I made a human human human. mistake. I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed. Still to come.

Now open the fucking bra right now. When we don't start to deal effectively with our situations, we're never going to be able to get past them. As much as you can try to... I'm just a good listener and you can't underestimate the power of a good listener. That's not good enough. Sometimes in this group, listening is all Sean Pika can do. I kind of can relate because I just came home myself. They are men recently released from prison.

How long were you away for? Three years. Despite the shirt and tie and a master's degree, Sean can relate to their struggles. And a lot of times, there's not too many doors open for us. That's because Sean Pica, the counselor, was once Sean Pika, the convict. It's hard to swallow that, due to my own efforts, my own hand, that I lost 16 years of my life. Sean, now 35, spent half of his life in maximum security prison. When I was 16 years old, I shot and killed my friend's father.

It was in 1986 here in Selden Long Island, where Sean Pica, a high school junior, sat next to a girl named Cheryl Pearson in homeroom. Although they were just casual friends, Cheryl confided in Sean that her father was physically abusing her. Desperate to stop the abuse, Cheryl told Sean she would pay him to kill her father. I was a very confused, mixed-up kid. I really didn't think of the repercussions. Sean, who had witnessed domestic violence in his own home, agreed to help Cheryl.

We determined that, as two 16-year-olds, that this was the only way that we were going to be able to deal with this situation. What was your relationship like with Cheryl Pearson? Did you have a crush on her? I think maybe a little crush, but I don't think that's what motivated me. I think I was just more or less, I thought I was helping a friend. It was February 5, 1986. Before dawn, Sean hid behind some bushes in front of the Pearson home, a loaded 22-caliber rifle at his side.

How did I get here? And am I about to really take somebody's life? It was pretty dark. And when the father came out in the morning for work, I walked out of the shrubbery, and I shot and killed him. It was wrong, and I know it was wrong. I knew it was wrong then. But I still believed I was doing it for a right reason.

Sean and Cheryl were arrested a week later, and the teenagers quickly made headlines. The word was hit man. And the fact was, I was a 16-year-old kid with braces on his teeth that wasn't even shaving yet, that thought he was helping a friend in trouble. Although they both pled guilty to manslaughter, their sentences were very different. Step aside, step back. Cheryl, do you have anything to say about the sentence at all?

When it was determined that Cheryl's father had also sexually abused her, Cheryl, what do you think of the verdict? The judge showed mercy. That's it. Releasing Cheryl after just three and a half months in county jail. How you do it? How do you feel? Okay.

I'm just glad it's over, you know? But for Sean, it was just the beginning. I'd never been arrested before. I was introduced to a world. I had no idea existed. Sentenced to eight to 24 years. Sean was to spend the next 16 in state prison. I spent a lot of years just getting through death.

day to day. I did what a lot of guys do. I use the only thing that's available to numb myself to escape the situation and, you know, you get high. Drugs and a bad attitude landed Sean in solitary confinement twice. Really, it was those stays in solitary where I just said, you know what, I can't live like this. Mentally, I can't take it. And I started to make some changes at that point. Those changes meant getting an education in prison, where surprisingly, Sean got a lot of support from his fellow inmates. All the men that were my mentors and were just there for me for so many years, always a shoulder to lean on, no matter what the situation was, these guys were always there for me, always had my back. While serving his time, Sean received his high school diploma,

a bachelor's degree, and a master's degree. The only thing that I carried out those gates with me was that education. And I'll tell you, when I went to those gates to be released after 16 years, I had never been so scared in my life. Sean was paroled from Sing Sing Correctional Facility in December 2002. These past few months just experiencing so many things for the first time. I mean, things that everyone around me takes for granted. I mean, I made a mistake and I'll be the first to admit it was a huge mistake. But I still believe I deserve the second chance. Today, Sean is making the most out of that second chance. This is Sean. We have men to old, we know. His days are now spent working with tenants.

in this East Harlem housing project. You looked out for me a few times too, sir. And Sean is still going to school. Now he's working towards a second master's degree in social work. What does your family think about you today in what you're doing? They're proud of you?

They gotta be. Very proud. Sean's family never gave up on him. But nothing is more important to Sean than his other family. those who have served their time too. We're going to have to start getting into some more of the deeper issues and looking deeper at ourselves.

Here at Strive, Sean helps former inmates adjust to life on the outside. The prison system is just filled with so many men like myself that got in trouble young and spent the next 15 or 20 years in prison and went to school and really do deserve a second chance. And I think that they should get it, just like I got it. Lisa was popular, athletic, a kid from the birds. She's also... Give me all your money right now.

An armed robber. Give me all your fucking money! Now! What got you here? I guess I didn't care. Hold up. Give me all your money right now. Now, open to the fucking in the back. This dramatic holdup was caught by a store's security camera in Texas.

Put it all in. It turned out to be the first in a series of five convenience stores. robberies pulled off by a well-organized gang. Come on, hurry it up! They just kept telling me you've got two seconds, bitch, or we're going to shoot you. And I couldn't get the cash register open. I was hitting all the buttons. Nothing was working.

They scared me so bad. And when you feel like you're going to die, that's not a good feeling. The hold-ups didn't make much news until the gang members were finally caught, and their identities revealed. Police say they were gun-wielding girls. residents of the suburban Kingwood community are shocked to learn four female teenagers have been arrested for armed robbery Ladies you're here before the court today for formal arraignment Four teenage girls moonlighting as armed robbers and not just girls but middle and upper-class girls

All high school students living in Kingwood an affluent area of Houston The girls boastfully called themselves the Queen of armed robbery. The first thing I thought when I saw them is that they were drug addicts. Judge Mark Ellis had never faced defendants quite like these in his court. Part of the reason

the crimes were being committed was to get money for dope. Oh, you're fucking money! No! The girl behind this mask and the frightening bravado was the last person you'd expect to commit a robbery. 17-year-old Lisa Warzica. When we first met her,

She was facing trial for robbery, a gifted young athlete with hopes for a college scholarship. I had so much potential, and I just wasted it. She's now a woman, 21 years old, and more than halfway through the seven-year prison sentence she received for armed robbery. It's gone by pretty fast. I kept myself pretty busy. But Lisa says it was almost unbearable. When she first got to prison. Two people try to slit their throats. I think another tried to hang herself.

Some people get that hopeless. Lisa had hoped to avoid prison. She and co-defendant Katie Dunn pled guilty, hoping they'd get probation from a sympathetic jury. But they had few answers for prosecutor Terence Wyndham's tough questions. That lady behind the county, you scared to live? daylights out of it, did you? Yes, I did.

I want your true honest feelings. If this happened to you, you want somebody to go to the pen, wouldn't you? Yes. The jury agreed, and so did Judge Ellis. You made a choice, and that choice was to be thugs, to go out and take money at gunpoint and to terrorize these people. Spare me your tears, you have sown the wind, and you have now reaped the whirlwind. Those are tough words.

Well, it's hard to feel sorry for the girls. There were violent, scary crimes, too many crimes. Was it the right sentence? Absolutely. Seven years in a Texas state prison, at the time it seemed like a harsh sentence for first offenders. There was also the risk that the teens who went in would come out hard in criminals. But four years later, in Lisa's case, it appears to be a crime. it appears as if the judge and the jury were right.

I work on the maintenance crew. Today, Lisa Warzika is not exactly doing hard time at the Gatesville Women's Prison outside Waco, Texas. You do plumbing? Sort of, yes. She's managed to graduate high school, earn an associate's degree, and has been accepted by the University of Texas

for her bachelor's degree. Do you hear from any way? from anyone from your high school class? One friend, occasionally. But while she's lost friends from home, she's regained close relations with her sister and her parents who at once thought they had lost forever

the little girl they raised. She was constantly in our face, very aggressive, very hostile. And not the daughter he knew, as Rand Warzeika told us at the time of Lisa's trial. It was like somebody had come in into her body and taking the Lisa we knew out and another bad foul mouth, bad attitude person came inside and was living in her house.

Today, the old Lisa is back. I want to say I feel grateful for coming to prison, but I have definitely appreciated the experiences in a sense because it's gotten me closer to my family. What got you here? To go that far, to you know, use a gun and rob a store. I didn't care. I didn't appreciate what I had. You always think that you have it worse.

There's others who have it worse off. Forgive me on this, but it sounds like this might have been a good place for you to come to. Sometimes I think that, yeah. But there have been disappointments. Lisa was turned down in her first attempt at parole. All I can do is, you know, apologize and move on. People afterwards thought of you as a common criminal.

I'm sure they did. But did you think of yourself that way? Yes, I am a criminal. Do you think it's possible you'll be here the entire seven years or close to it? It's possible. I'm hoping for the best, but kind of expecting the worst. In some ways you've grown up here. Right.

Eight years in prison, a convictive for the most of the best, A conviction for murder. How much punishment is enough? Could Rebecca be set free? The verdict hasn't changed. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder. Gooday, I'm Justin Wolfers, host of the Platypus Economics podcast. If there's one thing I've learned from a career teaching economics,

it's that your life is shaped by economic currents you'll never see. A single price tag can explain things a thousand experts can't. People who understand economics, they make better decisions in their careers, their finances, their relationships and their communities, and I want that for you. Listen to and follow Platterpuss Economics, available now wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking about murder. The Ohio State Parole Board today faces a momentous decision. Should it recommend clemency for a convicted murderer?

And I submit to you, this murder is one of the worst murders I've ever seen. In prison sits the murderer, 26-year-old, Rebecca Hopfer. What are your thoughts on the eve of this? I'm pretty nervous about it. This is the third time we filed for clemency. And if prosecutor David Franceselli has his way, she will fail again today. We're here again, third time for clemency, and if you truly think about it, this defendant has never acknowledged what she did.

did. 1994, prosecutors charged 17-year-old Rebecca Hopper with killing her newborn baby. You told the parole board that this was the worst murder case you had seen in 20 years. Were you really serious about that? A newborn baby was born and she took that baby, and that baby was crying and squirming and she stuffed it in trash bags and stuffed it in a trash can in the garage. If that's not heinous enough for you, I don't know what it is. so heinous that Rebecca was tried in adult court and sentenced to 15 years to life.

You've been here for how many years? Eight years. I mean, in some ways you've grown up here. Right. Right. We first met Rebecca in 1998. She was 21 and had served just three years. But memories of life before prison already were fading.

It's hard for me to remember what my personality was like. personality was like and how I was with other people. I know that I'm not the same person that I used to be. Rebecca grew up in Dayton, Ohio, a good student, talented artist, writer in the high school band. From Centerville, Ohio, the Centerville Jazz Band. But at 17, after what she says was her first sexual experience, Rebecca found herself pregnant.

It's like every teenage girl's nightmare. Basically. She never told her parents and they never caught on, in part because Rebecca showed few physical signs. It was strange because sometimes I even wondered if it wasn't just my imagination because I never felt her kick. I never felt her move. Then the inevitable. In the upstairs bathroom, behind closed doors, Rebecca gave birth, alone, to a baby that weighed just over four pounds. And so I pushed once and she just like flew out. The horror only got worse. And her cord was wrapped her under neck.

And she was all gray. I could see every bone in her body. I was like, no, she's going to be okay. She's going to be okay. But it wasn't okay. She says the baby was dead at birth. And I guess I panicked. It was like, and I put her in the bags.

and I picked her up and I carried her downstairs and I laid her in the trash can in the garage. You did nothing at all to harm that baby. No. It was not alive. No, she wasn't alive. You're absolutely sure. Yes.

Rebecca then went back into the house and watched TV with her mother. What were you feeling when you're sitting there watching TV? I was hoping I bleed to death. But she still said nothing to her parents. Soon she did confide in one friend, and that was all it took for word to get out. Suddenly we hear this at the door. Within days, detectives confronted Rebecca's mother, Brenda.

I'm about right here, and the three of them are clustered right there. We know from some Centerville people that your daughter had a baby, delivered a baby, killed it, and threw in the trash. I said, what? Brenda was shocked, astonished. Exactly who said what would be hotly disputed later. But police did get Rebecca to sign a statement. She did cry and she was still moving once I put her in the bag.

That's what she was told to write. With a very incriminating last sentence, a sentence that raises serious questions for Rebecca's father, Ken. Does not flow, does not follow. It's totally not even the way she writes. Why would you write that sentence under any circumstances? Because I was scared and I trusted the police officers. So I felt like if I cooperate with them, then things are going to be fine, whether it's true or not.

And so I wrote what they told me to write. Armed with that confession, prosecutors claim that Rebecca clearly was too hardcore to be rehabilitated in the juvenile system. So off to adult court, she went. There was talk of a plea bargain to the lesser charge of manslaughter. But Rebecca told us in 1998 that she wasn't interested. I turned it down because I wasn't going to admit to something that I didn't do. Rebecca, you'd be out by now. I don't care.

She was still moving once I put her in the bag. You wrote that. At Rebecca's trial, prosecuting the case, the very same David Franchiselli. He hammered Rebecca on the stand. Tell the jury now. Tell the jury. Was a baby alive or dead? Which story is it today?

Is she alive or dead when she's born? My story all along has been that she has been dead. But the jury didn't buy it. We, the jury behind the defendant, Rebecca Lynn Hopper, for a guilty of murderous charge. Never forget that moment, will you? It's a terrible moment. A terrible moment.

She was 17, and that's a part of this that kept getting lost. Everybody kept treating her like she was 35 years old. You know, we're talking about a 17-year-old. girl. Even the judge had misgivings, the late Lee Bixler. It was a shame to ruin her life. Prospect of this little girl being rehabilitated was excellent. But the judge had no leeway. In Ohio, a murder conviction in adult court means a mandatory sentence of 15 years to life. We don't have anything that says for a young child who is in this kind of situation, we have something less than a guy who, who chopped somebody up with an axe.

David Frances Shelley defends the lengthy sentence. She's made her bed and she needs to sleep in it. And if it's 15 years to life, so be it. In 1998, Rebecca was still a troubled girl as reflected in her drawings. What have you learned through all of this? I haven't learned a lot about myself yet, because I still pretty much hate myself.

But remarkably, Five years later, Rebecca Hopper seems a very different person. See, you laugh now, and you didn't laugh the first time I talked to you. I mean, you have changed. Hating yourself takes a lot of energy, so easier just to let some of that go than to hold on to it, I guess. But one thing hasn't changed. Rebecca still insists she did not kill her baby. As for turning down that plea bargain,

At least I know that I've stuck by what I believe to be true, so I can lay my head down at night and go to sleep with a good conscience. Right, but you're going to sleep in prison. That's okay. There's one victim here. Certainly it's fine with David Franceselli, who is back in front of Ohio's parole board, trying again to keep Rebecca in prison. A lot of girls have babies, and they don't stick them in plastic bags like that. And she comes here today, not accepting responsibility for the third time. The third time.

The bottom line to this case is how much punishment is enough. But now it's Rebecca's turn, and her attorney is about to argue that the charges against his client are unjust. Her sentence unfair. Rebecca faces at least seven more years in prison unless she wins this fight for freedom. That's next. I don't really have too great of expectations because the letdown is bad. Today, while Rebecca Hopper sits in prison, her parents, Ken and Brenda, prepared to face Ohio's parole board in a battle for their daughter's freedom.

They told us that there had never been a clemency hearing where there were 20 supporters there. And so we were going to be sure that we had more than 20. Rebecca's been a model prisoner, even earned a college degree, but growing up in prison has taken its toll. I just hate the time as taking away from her. She already feels like she's old. She says, I'm on almost 30. And what do I have to show for my life? Now, Rebecca's attorney Madri Ellis must convince Ohio's parole board to give that life back.

And are we at that point now where enough is enough and it's time to let her go? Ellis knows the board is eager to hear remorse from Rebecca. Problem is, she still says she did not kill her baby. But Ellis argues that doesn't mean that Rebecca isn't sorry for what happened. She didn't tell anybody she was pregnant. She didn't tell her mother, didn't tell any of her school teachers, school counselors, and she admits that that was wrong. Wrong, but not, he says, grounds for a murder conviction.

Rebecca has been severely punished when you compare her case to other young women who were in similar circumstances. And Ellis says in those cases, no one got a life sentence. It's always been the same. But prosecutor David Franciselli will hear none of it. That's what they keep doing. Baby was dead, baby was dead, baby was dead, baby was dead. Let us go. Never admitting responsibility for her actions.

Never saying, hey, listen, I killed my baby. I'm sorry. And this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you. Rebecca's hearing is over, but the board will take its time to decide. Farrell, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here.

We have been set back so many times and hurt so many times. It's hard to get optimistic. It really is. You just sit here and wait. Right. What's that? like nerve-wracking. One month later, New Center 7 at 6. The Ohio Parole Board is recommending that a Miami Valley woman imprisoned for killing her child be considered for

release. Fantastic. I still feel numb. Then shortly thereafter even better news. Ohio's governor Bob Taft accepts the parole board's recommendation and grants Rebecca clemency. It's just a shock. That's all I can say. You act like you're still in shock. I am. Just wanted to stand up and down and go, oh my God, is it real? You know, really, really, really.

Governor Taff's order says he acted because of overwhelming community support for Rebecca, because of her age at the time of the crime, and her achievements while in prison. Prosecutor Frances Shelley thinks the governor is about to set a cold-blooded murderer free. The verdict hasn't changed. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder, a purposeful killing of her newborn baby. That's not going to change. The prosecutor's views are of little concerned to Rebecca today.

This is very impressive looking. Yes. So you got this today? Yes. What will you do with this? Probably put it someplace very safe. She'll spend her first few months as a free woman at home. Sometimes I kind of worry that maybe my parents are going to try to pick up

where we left off. Treat you as they did when you were 17? Yes. So it'll be an adjustment for everybody. But it's an adjustment everybody is eager to make. She just needs to make some of our own decisions. And she said, Mom, if I fall on my face, then I fall on my face. But I need to do it myself.

I'm ready to have a, or at least try to have a normal life. So I'm ready. Rebecca Hopper gets to go home in May. One condition of her release is finding work, but she has a job lined up with a car dealer and an offer to intern with a state lawmaker who's been a supporter. In the years since most states toughened up their juvenile crime laws, there have already been second thoughts and some revisions.

Some states are giving judges more flexibility in sentencing, but others are just fine-tuning the harsh penalties. It'll probably be years before we can really know the full impact of the hardline approach. Sean Pica is the president of Hudson Link, an organization that provides education, life skills, and re-entry support to incarcerated and formerly incarcerated individuals.