48 Hours - Chasing Catherine Shelton (Part 2) - Encore

Episode Date: December 25, 2022

A journalist finds herself in a game of cat and mouse with a skilled former attorney dogged by mayhem and suspicions of murder. Why do bad things happen to the men in Catherine Shelton’s life? "48 Hours" contributor Jenna Jackson reports.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. It was the loudest sound I'd ever heard because it was so close. So I'm thinking, run, in my head. I'm thinking, Mike is shot. She steps from the back of the car

and she screams. Shoot her. Shoot her again. I heard her voice. I heard her. Catherine. Catherine Shelton. Meet Catherine. Catherine Shelton. Get comfy. You're fine.

She says she had nothing to do with that shooting, but it's not the first time she's been accused of a crime. Fraud, sexual offense, elder abuse, more fraud, arson. I can go through all of them. Homicide. Some call this Texas woman a black widow. Men around her have died from unnatural causes. As you can tell from all these pictures and different cases on your table,

that's a lot of coincidences. My name is Jenna Jackson, and I'm a journalist. For nearly 20 years, Catherine's story has stayed with me. From a fiery 20-something right up until today, just about everywhere Catherine Shelton has gone, trouble has followed. Catherine Shelton has gone, trouble has followed. For some reason, I seem to have attracted people around me who themselves

do not lead dull lives or are up to something. An ex-boyfriend found beaten to death, case unsolved. If you had to have a number one prime suspect, it's Catherine. A man named with Catherine in a lawsuit was found with a bullet in his head.

The circumstances around it, odd. There's another ex-boyfriend who Catherine actually admits shooting in the back. She says it was self-defense. She was a lot of fun when she wasn't trying to kill me. And as you're about to hear, there's more. This is where the case kind of goes from bad to weird. A young man discovered hanging in a house she owned, dead and naked. His death ruled an accident.

I lead a dull life. There's that husband and wife shot up in an ambush. The husband died. The wife survived, telling police her former boss was with the shooter. I know it was her. I've worked with her. I've been in her home. I've been in her home. Catherine Chilton. Not me. I wasn't there. And then there was an older man.

He turned up dead, rolled up in a blanket in Catherine's house. She says he died of natural causes. She has never been charged with murder. All right, for the record, I've never killed anybody, but I have done a few things, yes. I do admit that I've never stabbed anyone, all right? And I've never shot anyone with a shotgun. Some say she knows how to beat the system. She is a former criminal defense attorney.

Maybe she didn't do any of this. Maybe she's just really unlucky. It's all coincidence. She may just be the most unluckiest person in the world. Her story has become my obsession. To find the truth. You know, I mean, do I look like I'm telling a big fat whopper? Субтитры создавал DimaTorzok After years of playing a cat and mouse game with Katherine Shelton, I've decided to meet up with her again and see if she's been holding on to any secrets. But before I do that, I got some help. Hey, thanks for meeting me.

From a couple experts. They're both 48 Hours consultants. Lisa Andrews was a long-time prosecutor. She's now a defense attorney. To hold somebody criminally responsible for something, you have to be able to prove it. And thus far, no one city, no one agency, no one has been able to prove even enough almost for an arrest. These are some of the crime scene photos. And Brian Behnken, a trial attorney and private investigator. There's no question from what we know about her past prior to this that she's capable. Right.

You know, the question is, what's the evidence? The controversy surrounding Katherine Shelton started in the late 70s. Okay, so let's recap what we know so far. She comes on the scene as a Houston criminal defense attorney. She's already got a reputation. She's connected to her ex-boyfriend, who she had filed common law marriage suit against. The one who did not show up for the court appearance

from the lawsuit that she filed. Exactly. Was found beaten to death in his garage. That is still unsolved, and we feel like there are so many unanswered questions there. They all sort of go in a circle here. And then she is charged with shooting another ex-boyfriend, Gary Taylor, a reporter here in Houston. Who she actually got convicted for.

And that's the only thing she's ever been convicted of, right? Right. And only got probation. And of course, there was a second death we talked about. It was Tommy Bell. He was named with Catherine in a wrongful death lawsuit and was later found with a bullet in his head. Investigators say Bell shot himself playing Russian roulette. Catherine was never implicated in Bell's death,

but it added to her reputation as a woman with a past. All right. Okay, cool. Thanks. Bye. And there were other old allegations of harassment, burglaries, and so forth that never got to court. But now, let's move to the next chapter in Catherine's life. In 1981, Catherine left Houston and married a small-town Texas boy named Clint Shelton. His family owned a gun shop, and he happened to be an expert marksman. Catherine told us what attracted her to him when I started covering Catherine for a 48 Hours Report set for 2003.

He just seemed like a, you know, kind of a man of the West type person. Clint's dad, Richard, didn't care for Catherine. She's intelligent. Don't think she's not intelligent. And she's mean to go with it. She's a bitch. 18 karat.

Catherine and Clint would later move up to Dallas. She eventually convinced a judge to set aside her conviction for shooting Gary Taylor. After her probation was lifted in 1988, she got her law license back and opened a practice. What I try to do is get justice for the people who come to me. Things were relatively quiet for about a decade until a third man's death had a link to Catherine in June 1999. So let's talk about the next case, Chris Hansen. This is where the case kind of goes from bad to weird. Chris Hansen was doing some contracting work for Catherine in her new home. He was here in the States from Canada.

It's our understanding that, you know, she was doing some immigration work for him. Mr. Hansen was found in a home that she had yet to move into, but it belonged to her. Found by her husband, Clint Shelton. Hansen was found hanging in a closet area of the home. He was naked. According to newspaper reports at the time, it was ruled an accident again. This time, instead of by Russian roulette, it was ruled accident by auto erotic asphyxiation. In her house. In her house. So have you guys seen those kind of cases before?

Not in somebody else's house. Right. I mean, they happen, but this is pretty unusual. Hanson's death may have been unusual, but the next one with a link to Catherine was right out of a movie. The lady laying on my front porch has been shot twice. Okay, do you know who shot her?

No. Is there anything to say? Was your wife involved in any way, sir? In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach

the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn Trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction.

Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing the best idea yet. A brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bolder risk takers who brought them to life.

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She's working as a defense attorney several months after Chris Hansen's body is found in her house. And this is a really big one. Yeah. Sensational, newsworthy, lots of media coverage, and a big deal in Dallas. So this happened in Rowlett, Texas.

And on December 20, 1999, there was an 911 call. Hello. Hello. There's a lady right on my front porch that's been shot. Do you know who shot her? No, ma'am. The 911 caller didn't know who had shot Marissa Hierro, but Marissa says she knew immediately who was involved,

her old boss, Catherine Shelton. She's saying, please help me, please help me. They're still chasing me. She's saying that somewhere down the way, her husband's been shot. Marissa had recently quit working for Katherine and had opened her own immigration consulting business. Katherine, she says, went ballistic. The two women soon began accusing each other

of scamming their clients. She was threatening me. She was screaming at me. We spoke with Marissa in 2003. She's screaming he won't live to see Christmas. I mean, she said it exactly like that. Catherine denies that she ever threatened Marissa. But Marissa says she was worried. She knew what happened to Chris Hansen, the man that had been found hanging in a home Catherine owned.

Marissa says she knew him and claims he had a beef with Catherine. He called my office about 30 days before he had passed. He had told me that she was taking money from him. I told him to go to the police. He told me he was afraid to go to the police because, you know, he wasn't a citizen. He had Canadian citizenship or something. Marissa says Hansen had wound up dead not long after. His death ruled an accident. Then, that December evening, all hell broke loose for Marissa and her husband Michael outside their home.

We pulled around to the back. Mike's about to get out. All of a sudden, he just snapped over, and he grabbed my arm, and he just said, oh, no. So I looked to see what he's looking at, and he's telling me, just run. Don't worry what you hear. Just go. Run. I could just see from, like, the neck down. I couldn't see any face. And I could see someone just cocking, holding something like this. And I know now, when I'm looking, it's confirming in my head that this is someone holding a gun.

It was the loudest sound I'd ever heard because it was so close. I mean, you think about it now and you think he should have ran him over. He should have done something different. He should have pulled forward and slammed into the garage. He should have done something other than get out. Marissa says she could see two masked figures. One person with a gun, a man. The other, a woman, petite with blonde hair. I'm running. I'm not even thinking that I can even get fast enough away. So I stood, and I just, I never forget because I saw, it's like a fire leaving a gun. And the only thing I could think of to do, I guess, was lift up my hand. I know when I was shot and I landed forward, I landed face down.

I know when I was shot and I landed forward, I landed face down. Marissa says as the two masked figures stood over her, the woman was giving the shooter orders. She says she recognized Catherine by her voice. She said, don't be a p*** to him. She said, I said, do it. And he told her, I did. I shot her. And she said, do it. And he told her, I did. I shot her. And she said, do it again. When he argued and said,

I did it, I just heard them like, leave. Marissa had been hit. Buckshot from the blast tore into her arm. She was seriously wounded. Her husband, Michael, laid dead in the driveway. Her husband, Michael, lay dead in the driveway. When the police get on the scene, the first things I say, I say, Catherine. Catherine Shelton. In spite of Marissa's witness account, Catherine was never arrested. She had an alibi. Her lawyer says phone records show that Catherine was talking on her cell phone and then home phone with a friend and her mother at the time of the shooting. But her husband, Clint, was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated assault.

Police had found two latex gloves and a mask made out of pantyhose in a porta potty on a construction site near the murder scene. Clint's DNA was on the mask. So many people have said, you know, Catherine has this ability to pull people in and to help her. So Clint, been married to her for several years, you know, he's just sucked into this. And sure, sure, baby, I'll go along with you and shoot your paralegal and her husband. Why not? I mean, that's just incredible.

Kind of the way it looks, though. And that's the way it looked to the prosecutors as well. I sat through it 20 years ago. Right. Sat through that entire murder trial. The prosecutor's case was Clint did this. And whether Catherine was at the scene or not, she orchestrated it. He said that.

That was his case. It had to be his case because Clint had no motive on his own to do this. Catherine had the motive. In 2000, Clint Shelton was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison for gunning down the Hieros. We spoke to him a few years into his sentence. I did not murder or attempt to murder anyone, and I was not there that night. Catherine insisted neither of them had anything to do with it. I don't know anything about it.

Marissa would later sue Catherine for wrongful death. The case was eventually dropped. It started out to be a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Marissa against me for killing her husband. It has turned into something else. That's because Catherine would then counter-sue, saying Marissa had falsely blamed her and her husband Clint for the crime and that all of her claims were untrue.

The trial was unusual. Marissa and her lawyer didn't show up, so Catherine won by default. The ruling? Marissa libeled Catherine by accusing her of murder. But Catherine was still ready to fight for damages. And the worst thing, she says in here, this thing, says, I'm a coward. Well, let me ask you something. My father wasn't a coward. My mother wasn'm a coward. Well, let me ask you something. My father wasn't a coward.

My mother wasn't a coward. The judge seemed impressed. I think it was a very well-tried case, very well explained. Your arguments are well supported. Guess what? The judge awarded Catherine millions of dollars in damages. She needs to find a job, and we hope she'll stay at it for at least 30 or 40 years, because that's how long it's going to take to pay for all this.

Catherine was angry at Marissa, and as I'm about to tell you, she would also become furious with me. I got a bodyguard. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases.

And this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, and listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror.

But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, early and ad-free on Wondery Plus and the Wondery app. November 2003. I was a little concerned. Catherine was angry with me. Very angry.

Strange things have happened to the men in Katherine Shelton's life. Katherine Shelton's saga hit national airwaves with our 48 Hours report. Do you hurt other people? Well, I don't intend to. I thought, she said all this on camera, she had to know what this show was going to look like. There's all these bodies. At the time, my boss at CBS was really nervous that Catherine would try to kill me. So my boss hired a bodyguard to follow me around.

Three months after the show airs, Catherine calls my cell phone, says, hey, this is Catherine. I'm like, hey, Catherine. I get little butterflies in my stomach at that point. And she's like, I just wanted to let you know I seriously considered killing you, but I decided not to. And I was like, hey, thank you. Click. Around 2012, I left the business. But as it turns out,

it hadn't left me. Katherine Shelton was always there. In the back of my mind. I found out she had been disbarred since the last time I saw her, but what else had she been up to? I wanted to talk to her again, so in 2016, I called her. So I think we have to get your audio pack on. You look amazing. Not only did she take my call, but she agreed to meet with me again. What time is it? It's 11 o'clock, too early for mimosas.

It was the start of a years-long, complicated relationship. Who am I to judge someone's soul? I have mixed feelings about her. You haven't seen them since all this craziness. Not except at their depositions. I find her smart, wily, and at times even funny. But look, this top does not work

with the muffin top. But she gets very serious when one particular subject comes up. There's a man in prison who doesn't deserve to be there. His name is Clint Shelton. All these years later, Catherine is still standing by her man, even as Clint Shelton was serving out his life sentence for the murder of Michael Hierro.

And everybody who knows him knows that it's not him, that it's impossible. Catherine was determined to exonerate Clint. My curiosity was piqued. I was able to get my hands on hundreds of pages of police reports that we didn't have access to when we originally covered this story. Over the next few years, I went through them whenever I had the chance to see if there was something that had been missed. So you guys know. The team also took a look.

I think everyone would agree he did not have a motive. In the end, it seems that the best chance Clint Shelton had to help himself was Catherine. Tell me from your experience, if you're defending him, what's our best case to say Clint didn't do this? It makes no sense.

You make this case about Katherine Shelton. Lisa says the easiest way to get Clint off the hook would be for him to blame Katherine. You talk about all the crazy deaths before he ever met her, and then you paint her as this psycho who gets mad and lashes out in anger. But that hasn't happened. Clint has never even suggested Catherine had anything to do with the shooting. Was your wife involved in any way, sir?

He's been in the penitentiary without anything because he wouldn't do what they wanted him to do, the prosecutor and the state. Which was? Which was give me up. And Catherine still swears she wasn't responsible for the shooting either. But for the first time, she shared that she had doubts. At one point, I thought, well, maybe I did do it. Maybe I blacked out and did it. And I talked to the

psychologist who worked with my clients. I said, look, I keep feeling like so many people can't be wrong, you know? And he said, it's impossible. I was talking to you like when it was happening on the phone. So who does Catherine believe was behind the ambush plot? Marissa Hierro. She was directly responsible. Even if she did not herself pull the trigger, she made it happen.

It's an accusation she's made before. Catherine says Marissa had been running an immigration scam, basically taking money from immigrants who wanted green cards. Attorneys who represented some of Marissa's former clients told us she did little or nothing for the money they paid her. Catherine says Marissa's husband was about to rat her out.

I know Michael was inconvenient to her. Maybe she thought if she got rid of him that she was just really going places and he knew too much. We couldn't find Marissa today, but at the time when we asked her about these allegations, she denied them. And she also denied Catherine's accusation that she was the one who set up her husband's murder. Have I always done the best thing in life? Said the right thing, made the best choices? No. But I've never hurt anyone.

No. Would I ever hurt Michael? Never. Never. But Katherine says she's got one more reason Clint couldn't have been the shooter. The gun. That is a pretty powerful weapon. It is. It's a scary weapon. It's not a safe weapon. The weapon that was used at the crime scene on that night was a sawed-off

shotgun 12-gauge. They used buckshot. Tony Leal is a former chief of the Texas Rangers. He knows guns. A shotgun is made to spread several projectiles so that when it shoots, it goes out the front of that barrel and steadily increases its width. So when you're not experiencing weapons, a shotgun is a very good weapon. You don't have to know how to really shoot a gun. He had probably 1.200 guns and he was just a very, very good shot. Catherine says her husband was a marksman and a gun expert. He would never use a crude weapon like that. The weapon was nothing like what Mr. Shelton would have used if he was going to shoot anything.

But Leal says Catherine's argument cuts both ways. If I was planning a murder that I wanted to get away with, we need to make this look like we didn't do it, to throw off investigators. It's not a bad plan. We spoke to the former prosecutor on the case, Toby Shook, who is now a defense attorney. He says Clint Shelton is exactly where he belongs and that Catherine is still considered a person of interest in the shootings. He also says he doesn't believe Marissa Hierro

had anything to do with her husband's murder. Lots of files over the years. Catherine's efforts to free Clint seem like a long shot. But since she's talking to me again, I wonder, will she talk about other cases? We've got arson accusations, murder accusations, beating, shooting, theft, and who knows what else. What about Gary Taylor? She was a lot of fun when she wasn't trying to kill me. The ex-boyfriend she shot in the back.

He had said, you know, you and I would both be better off dead. And I thought, well, maybe you, you know, but not me. Here we go. We're on our way to pick up Catherine for an interview. We will see how it goes. You never can tell. It's always an adventure. After our reunion in 2016, I met up with Catherine a few more times,

and she told me bits and pieces about the allegations against her. But I felt like she was holding back. You know, I mean, how could I know that? But now, in 2022, she told me she has more to say. What do you think she's ready to talk about? I think she wants to set the record straight and correct some things that have been said about her for 30 plus years now. And after reexamining this case so carefully, I think I'm ready to face her again too.

I thought I'd start by asking her about a man she's never wanted to talk much about. A man she once cutting wanted to talk much about. A man she once cuttingly described as a moisture. I know you remember this because you've had to hear about it for years and years. Yes. Remember the night that everything went down with Gary Taylor. I want to walk you through what he says happened and I want you to tell me what happened. Okay. and I want you to tell me what happened, okay? Gary Taylor is that newspaper reporter who told us about his torrid relationship with Catherine that ended in an ugly breakup.

Amongst other things, Taylor accused Catherine of burglarizing his apartment. Catherine did not admit responsibility for the burglary, but according to Taylor, she did offer to help get his belongings back. When Taylor went to her home, what he got instead was a bullet in his back. In 2003, Taylor walked us through what he says happened that night with Catherine. She insisted that I come over to her place and that she would have the stolen goods delivered over there.

After he got there, he says Catherine told him there was something for him in her bedroom closet. I looked in the closet and it was empty. I went in to make sure. As soon as I got in the closet, the lights went out. And I heard a gun click. I knew she was out there. Taylor says he looked through the crack

where the door hinges were, and there was Katherine. And she stepped into the bedroom, and she backed up against a wall, and she took a policeman's position like this with the pistol, pointed at the closet and I had the door between us. She looked different than I'd ever seen her. This was a new Katherine and she started talking to me.

She said, don't worry about the next life because there isn't one. And she looked down at the gun. And that's when I made my move. And I kicked open the door. I grabbed the chair. I went straight at her with the chair, like a lion tamer or something. She fired off around.

Bullet came through the chair and nicked me right above the ear, right here. And I threw the chair at her, ran down the hallway. Okay, well, his version of what happened that night was bull. Catherine denies even dating Taylor and claims he was only around because he was writing a story about her hoping to revive his career. I had news for that boy. I did have some passionate thoughts about someone, but it sure wasn't him. What Catherine told me was that after a night out drinking, Taylor went to her home for a nightcap. She says Taylor made himself a drink in the kitchen and then came back into the living room holding one of her guns. I said,

that's not loaded. And he said, it is now. Catherine says she tried to divert Taylor toward her bedroom closet. I said, those things that you want, they're in the closet up on the top shelf. I thought I could kind of go around him, but no, he has me go in front of him, back to the room. And he reaches for this wooden chair to pull it over to get up. You know, it was nine feet. And I thought, now is your only chance. And I knew I had another gun under the bed. And I just started saying, oh, please, Gary, don't kill me, whatever.

And I went down on my knees, you know, like this. Just, it was happening contemporaneous with him moving the chair. I reached under, pulled it out, stood up, turned, shot it like this with one hand. Because that's how I shoot, one hand. Not like this, but turn your body to the side and shoot as close as you can. What happened then? He had lifted the chair at the same time. The chair has then rocketed out across the room because I shot through the chair and the bullet bounced off his head and he gelled, turned and ran and I kept shooting.

I shot him out the door. You chased him out the door? Yeah. And the second shot hit him in the back. She blew me out through the door and I was laying face down on the grass outside of her place. And I was so off he says that came two centimeters close to his heart and nearly penetrate the body cavity all right it was in the soft tissue of his back the fat muscle he was treated and

released quickly from Benton Hospital night. Catherine insists that she shot him in self-defense. By the way, her claim that Gary pointed a gun at her was one she had made before at trial. We spoke to Taylor recently, and he denies that he held a gun on Catherine and says he's sure Catherine meant to kill him that night. So Catherine has told us her side of what happened with Gary him that night. So Catherine has told us her side of what happened with Gary Taylor that night.

But what about all the other rumors and accusations in her life? I've known a lot of criminal defense attorneys, and not all of them have this trail of bodies kind of in their wake that they've been accused of, right? And she'll also have to explain the most recent death she has a link to, a fifth one. Why would I have killed him? Do you believe Gary Taylor's account of the shooting or Catherine Shelton's?

Take an in-depth look at the timeline of events at 48hours.com. It's so hard to pull Katherine into focus. Is she tired of the accusations that have swirled around her for decades? People who really know me, they know I'm not that way. I mean, who could be and live so long? Or is part of her amused by all the attention?

Yep, I hear them, the sirens in the background. They're here for me. They found you. They finally located me. It's taken them 40 years. So for 40 years, there have been some pretty crazy accusations thrown at you. Yes, a few. Cases linked to you. Murder. You mean that I knew the people?

Yes. Arson, murder, fraud. Burning, robbery, general mayhem. So why? Why are all these things being said about you every which way you go? I mean, have you done all these things? If I had done a tenth of what has been said about me, I'd be dead. Have you ever murdered anyone? Murder accusations. It's really been people throwing mud at the wall and hoping some of it will stick.

Remember, Catherine was never charged with murder, but she has links to two men who met a violent end. The first man was that ex-boyfriend, Dr. George Tedesco, found bludgeoned to death in his garage on the day he was supposed to go to court in a dispute with Catherine. The other man was Michael Hierro, shot to death in his driveway. His wife, who was also shot and survived, had been in a dispute with Catherine as well. Myself, I have never killed any human being. I have never paid anyone to kill any human being, promised anyone that I would would pay them to kill another human being, offered anyone anything of value. As for those other mysterious deaths, there was Tommy Bell,

the man who was named with her in a wrongful death suit. He had killed himself or shot himself while playing Russian roulette, watching a Clint Eastwood movie. She still denies that she had anything to do with it, but she did seem skeptical about the Russian roulette story. It'd be kind of hard to envision somebody harming themselves that took care of their body, you know, and their nutrition. And she also told us she doesn't know anything about Chris Hansen's death. He was the contractor who turned up dead and naked in a house she owned. But why do these rumors follow her around? Catherine thinks the reason may be because she was always known for being

a force to be reckoned with. I had somewhat of a track record of if you hit me once, I'll hit you twice, you know, that I was taught to take up for myself. And I did. But that reputation, she says, took on a life of its own after the Tedesco murder. Catherine says she used it to build her legend. I played off a lot of that. And after the first incidents of the outrage of, like, George Tedesco, people would, you know, sometimes look at me and I thought,

well, I'll just use this to my advantage. And so if I'd, like, you know, look at them or something like that, you know, I'd see that they'd go crazy, you know, or something. So you played it up. Yeah, I did. Although Catherine insists she never murdered anyone, she does admit to some violence when she needed to defend herself. But you have done some violent things.

Oh, yes, And I would if someone put their hands on me. Catherine, however, says that she's softened with age, at least a little. It used to be, you'll only do that once. Now I'm trying to be, you know, follow Jesus and everything a little better. I'm a Catholic. And so now the rule is, all right, you have to do it twice, but then I'll beat the crap out of you. Catherine says she wants to put her past behind her, but there is now a new death with a link to her. The latest case was that of a 70-year-old man named Sam Shelton, no relation to Catherine. He was ill, she says, and in 2017, he was living in her house. He was in pretty bad shape. He was on oxygen. I mean, a lot of oxygen, a lot of oxygen.

He couldn't even move without a tank, a big tank. Catherine says she took him in because he was a veteran and had no family around. He didn't last long. He lived for, let's see, after I met him in March or April, let's see, I have to count my fingers. July, August, September, August. He died in August. He only lived five months. And he might have lived a little longer except the storm. That storm was Hurricane Harvey.

It came blasting through Houston that August. Catherine says Sam died of natural causes during the storm. There was nowhere to take him. And I tried to wrap him up in blankets. And I thought, at least here, it's cold. And he may have to stay here with me in the house so they can come get him. So I didn't know what else to do. But it's what Catherine did next that got her in trouble.

She signed his name on a lease application after he was dead to try and rent a house. She got caught. The DA's office didn't want to take it at first. And then they said, well, it's only a misdemeanor. Fraudulent use of identifying information. Felony. Bottom line, Catherine is currently charged with a felony. And she's facing trial.

She could even go to prison for up to 10 years. I'm not going to prison. I haven't done anything wrong. But how are you so sure? You're facing this case right now. It's pending. Well, I can't give away my defense. I mean, it's not a good case for a prosecutor. It's pretty, it's not a thin case. It's a case that can't be proven. Catherine says she has a reason for signing the dead man's name on that document. She says she was just trying to get a new home for the elderly man's nurse and her family.

According to Catherine, they lost their home in the storm. It's so hard to sort this all out. And after all this, I still can't make up my mind about her. How would you describe your life? Well, I certainly never expected it to be how it was. Actually, I would like to have been a librarian.

That was what I really wanted to do. Has your life turned out like you thought it would? Well, no, I haven't been a librarian. So it didn't work out. I'm who I am, period. And that's just how the cards are dealt. You've got to play the hand you're dealt. And with a few moans and groans and, you know, missed moves, I've played the hand I was dealt. Do you have anything to confess? Have you told us the truth about everything?

Anything that I've had to confess, I've confessed in the past. It's done. The confession is done. So no murder? I haven't. Not yet, I haven't. So anyway, you never know. affairs, and even murder. Do you think you know who wrote those anonymous letters? Yes, I do. 48 Hours, Saturday on CBS and streaming on Paramount+. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.