48 Hours - Crime & Punishment

Episode Date: January 8, 2017

A stepfather sits in prison for killing his wife. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. Real people. Real crimes. Real life drama my mother was feisty incredibly vibrant she was spunky she was fun she's that fun mom

hey jeanette say hi i was 10 hi hi. I was 10. Hi, Tippi. I was 14. Our grandparents picked us up to visit for the day. And when we returned home from the visit, we walk inside and she's not there. We weren't even fully in the house when Tippi, she grabs my hand and she says something's not right. That week that she was missing, I don't remember much.

I don't have any recollection of anything up until the day we were told that she was found. I got a nice bite on my fishing pole. I thought I had a fish, but it kept being so heavy that I couldn't bring it in. The way it came to the surface, all I saw was a long black tail. The bag turned over, and I saw two big feet sticking me in the face, and it scared the Jesus out of me. This body was in a large nylon duffel bag about five feet tall. It was pontip ought. And on top of that was large chunks of concrete.

When you go to this much trouble to dispose of a body, this is somebody known to the victim. If you watch enough crime shows, you know the person police usually zero in on when a wife turns up dead is the husband. And this case was no different. Their prime suspect was the victim's husband and stepfather to her two daughters, Dennis Ott. He always brought us gifts. She's got me finally. He always liked to joke and he always seemed to be happy and smiled all the time. You didn't see the other side till later.

There was one fight, but I remember being behind a door. I was so scared. I remember mom screaming for Tippi, Tippi help me. And I was frozen in fear. I felt like such a coward hiding behind a door. But I couldn't move. Did you think at that time that Dennis could hurt your mom? Yes.

Yes. We confronted him, and he basically said, you know, I've got nothing to say to you guys. We took him into custody. I remember being outside of the courtroom for the trial and I remember hearing the words, he was found guilty. And just sobbing.

And there was no stopping it. And here's where tonight's 48 Hours is a little different. We're going to show you what happens long after the verdict and why two sisters are still fighting for justice nearly 25 years after their mother's murder. You have a prepaid call, son. Good morning. Why do you think you deserve parole? I've been saying for 20 years that I'm not guilty of this crime. And I've done everything I can in prison to try to justify my release. I don't believe I'll be a danger to society. My mother doesn't get a second chance.

Why should he? I'm not that child hiding behind a door anymore. And I want him to know that I will do everything in my power to keep him incarcerated. Everything. I'm Tracy Smith. Tonight on 48 Hours. Crime and punishment. and punish me. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk-takers who brought them to life.

Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party.

So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. The scary cult classic was set in the Chicago housing project. It was about Candyman. The scary cult classic was set in the Chicago housing project. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. Candyman. Candyman? Now, we all know chanting a name won't make a killer magically appear, but did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an

actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. We're going to talk to the people who were there, and we're also going to uncover the larger story. My architect was shocked when he saw how this was created. Literally shocked. And we'll look at what the story tells us about injustice in America.

If you really believed in tough on crime, then you wouldn't make it easy to crawl into medicine cabinets and kill our women. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, early and ad-free, with a 48-hour plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. If you want to kill somebody and dispose of the body, you drive up to Sutter County and you dump them because we're the first rural open area that they come to out of Sacramento County.

Sutter County Sheriff Paul Parker was a young detective in May of 1992 when a fisherman reeled in that weighted duffel bag from the Sacramento River. You know, if it wouldn't have been for this fisherman, this would have been an unknown case. 33-year-old Pontip Ott had been missing for more than a week. And so probably less than 24 hours, I was on surveillance of her house. And the reason that we did that so quickly is that this was to us obviously a homicide. Pond Tip, known as Pond, was a hardworking immigrant from Thailand with a job at a commercial laundry. She lived with her two daughters, Jeanette and Tippy, in a modest home in Sacramento.

She's that fun mom. Oh my God. She loved music, sing along, our little old versions of karaoke. Frisbee outside, playing with our dogs. She was a strong Asian woman who didn't take nothing from nobody. Jeanette, hi. Younger sister Jeanette remembers their mother's laughter.

Very loud. Very prideful, never wanted to ask for help, so she did what needed to be done in order to take care of Tippy and I. The light's blinking up here. It's recording right now. Also at home, their mom's new husband, 41-year-old Dennis Ott. He was a Coast Guard chief petty officer and spent months away at sea. petty officer and spent months away at sea. He spoke with us by phone from the Solano prison in California. She was a beautiful woman and she was a gentle soul. I still miss her daily. But you had nothing to do with her disappearance and death? I had nothing to do with her

disappearance and death. Did you see Dennis as a father figure? I think I was more welcoming. I think he was charming and a nice guy. I wasn't as hesitant as Tippy was. We wanted a complete family, or at least I did. Jeanette and Tippy's grandfather, retired military man Larry Lewis, married Pond's mother. He first met Dennis Ott on Coast Guard Island in Alameda, California. I think one of the biggest mistakes I've made is, well, anytime you get some free time, just stop by the house, you know.

And then it just happened that when he came over, that Pawn and the girls were at our house, and that's where he met Pawn. Do you feel guilty? Yeah. I've never said that before. How could you have even imagined? You don't imagine.

Only a sick person could imagine. Hey, baby. What you got cooking? Dennis Ott says the last time he saw his wife was Sunday morning, May 17, 1992. And I said, uh, do you want to go out and do something? She said, no, I have plans. And she picked up her little black purse and walked out the house. And that was the last I saw of her. Jeanette and Tippy say Dennis told their grandparents a very different story. When you pulled up, what happened? Dennis was leaving. He was in his car. My grandparents asked if our mom was home, and he said yes, that she was inside. And so our grandparents said goodbye

to us, and we got out of the car, went inside the house, and she wasn't in there. And when it came time to file a missing persons report with police, it was their grandpa Larry who filed it, not Pond's husband, Dennis Ott. He got really upset that I'd done it. Now, why would he get upset? Why didn't he file a missing person case? Dennis Ott told us he tried to file a missing persons report, but he claims he was told to call the hospitals first. Still, he admits his marriage to Pond was troubled. My girl, my shadow, hi. Hi, everybody. Something both her daughters saw early on.

I started really noticing it before she became missing. There was a lot of fights leading up to that day. And how old were you? Nine or ten, probably. And I can hear her screaming right now. It got that bad towards the end. Pontiff and I had two altercations during our marriage. One was verbal, and the other one was physical,

where I had just returned home from work. I followed her into our room, and I said, what's going on? And she scratched me on the face, and I grabbed her by the hands. I threw her back in our waterbed, and I held her by the arms there, so she would stop scratching me. According to Larry Lewis, Ott could be just as angry when he was away from the family at sea. There was letters that he had written while he was at sea that you and Tippy can take a long walk off a short pier. He had written that to Pond?

He had written that, yes. Life with Ott was tense, and Pond wanted protection. She filed a restraining order saying she was afraid of him. That was about two days before she went missing. That's a huge red flag. Yeah, there was red flags popping up all over the place on this. Even though the cops were on the case, Pond's family was desperate for answers. Grandpa Larry set out on patrol to try to find out what happened to her.

Every morning, I would drive to their house, and I would just circle the block, go through the alley, just to see if anything, just anything, any little thing, but I never did. Anything, just anything, any little thing, but I never did. But he'll never forget what he observed when he came face to face with Dennis Ott shortly after Pond had vanished. I saw some marks on his neck. He had said he tried to hang himself, but that was rope burn. You think he was hauling the body? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, into the river. Detectives found it strange. Ott had called the sheriff's department several times about a report in the local newspaper. He immediately called us and said, I read that you guys recovered a body in the river, weighted down with cement. And, you know, my wife is missing, and I want to know if you've identified this body yet.

Well, doesn't that sound like a concerned husband? Well, it does sound like a concerned husband, except for I don't know why he would just automatically assume that because we found a body weighted down with cement, he would think that was his wife. Parker had a hunch Dennis Ott knew more about what had happened to his wife, a lot more. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn,

and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have urged it. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice

that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held

the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defence attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created.

She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. She just didn't know how to stop. Early and ad-free right now. When their mother, Pon Ott, disappeared, Tippy and Jeanette moved in with their grandparents. I remember walking in the house and it was dark and everyone was crying. For nearly two weeks, the sisters had been holding on to hope she would be found alive. Grandpa took me to the backyard and he just looked at me and he said, She's gone. Your mom's not coming home. Do you remember Jeanette's reaction?

Crying. Crying. Ten-year-old girl. This monster, he'd done so much damage. When her body was found, it was instant. We knew that he did it. There's no doubt about it. You had no doubt? No doubt.

Why? Never considered anybody else. Don't know how to explain it. It was just something you knew. After all, it was no secret Dennis Ott's marriage to their mom had hit rock bottom. We all knew that they weren't happy. Mom wanted a divorce.

Mom wanted a better life for her and for us. Why did she want a divorce? She never said. I don't know, because Pond kept secrets. It seems they both may have kept secrets. Pond suspected her husband was cheating, and she apparently had a boyfriend. I found these cards that had been written to her the summer before. I said, who is this guy?

I got in her face. I was kind of ashamed of this, but I was trying to get her to talk. And I called her a couple of names that I'm not going to bother repeating. How do you think that looks? Oh, I think it's very condemning. It makes it look like I was a very hostile individual. Authorities questioned Pond's boyfriend after she went missing and quickly ruled him out as a suspect. boyfriend after she went missing and quickly ruled him out as a suspect. They were, however,

very anxious to talk to her husband. And as it turns out, he too had an important question for detectives. He goes, does this have to do with pawn tip? The detective that was talking to him said, yes, and we need to talk to you today. We need to talk to you right now. And he says, okay, I'll be there in a few minutes. Ott never showed up, according to Parker. And there was something else the detective was curious about. A few days earlier, he'd noticed Ott had been spending a lot of time in the backyard. He wanted a closer look and got a search warrant. There looked like there was some new fence posts that were erected in the backyard. The concrete anchors needed to hold up the fence posts were unlike anything Detective Parker had ever seen.

They were shaped like an H. And Parker remembered that when Pond's body was recovered from the river, it had been weighted down with rocks and chunks of cement in that very distinctive shape. I found two or three of these cement H-shaped anchors lying around in the backyard that were pulled out when he was repairing the fence that were an exact match for the anchor that was in the bag. That's when I really started lasering down on this guy. Something else puzzled Parker. That white nylon bag that held Pond's body had a patch cut out of it. And lo and behold, after a long search with much assistance from Coast Guard intelligence,

we actually found a person that had an identical bag that was available to the Coast Guard. And where they stamped their lot numbers and ID numbers on the bags was the exact spot where this 4-inch by 5-inch was cut out. And these were only available to people in the Coast Guard. There's a picture of you holding up one of these bags. Right, that's it. That's the duplicate that we got from the Coast Guard. At the same time, there was nothing to tie Dennis Ott directly to that bag. Right, other than, you know, he's in the Coast Guard,

he had access to them. To Parker, the concrete in the bag seemed like significant physical evidence, but they were hardly a smoking gun. And while the detective believed he had the right man, the DA's office wasn't convinced there was enough evidence to arrest Dennis Ott for murder. They wanted a little bit stronger case. They just thought it was a little bit thin. And the investigation into Pon Ott's murder slowed to a crawl. I remember questioning why he still is going to work. Why is he still out and about? Why is he still free? Why does Dennis get to live a normal life and our mother's gone?

He felt like no one was going to be held accountable. So about 18 months after your mom was murdered, you decided to do something, Tippy. I wrote a letter. My grandfather suggested I write letters to the Coast Guard intelligence, to the DA. My name is Tippi Marine, and I am writing you because... Tippi read us a portion of the letter she wrote when she was just 16. Do you honestly think that waiting any longer, you will find more evidence to prove this man, Dennis Ott, guilty? Do you have any idea how hard it is for me and my 11-year-old sister to live each day and know that her mother's life was taken and the man who did it is not in prison?

When Parker read Tippy's letter, he knew he couldn't let this case go cold. These things rip your heart out. It just kind of makes you want to dig in your heels. We just kind of got it in our head, you know what, we're not going to let this punk get away with this. We got it in front of the grand jury, and the grand jury agreed with us. I remember me and another detective went down to Coast Guard Island to pick him up. What was that like? He said something along the effect of, well, you can indict a ham sandwich.

And we said, yeah, well, okay, maybe. And oh, by the way, here's yours. And we took him into custody. And that was that. In November 1994, Dennis Ott was arrested and charged with his wife Pond's murder, more than two years after her body was recovered from the Sacramento River. What were the challenges of this case? There was no DNA. Sutter County District Attorney Investigator Vicki Van Atta. Fingerprints? No fingerprints. Blood evidence? No blood evidence. Murder weapon? No weapon. It's hard to prove a murder case without a lot of physical evidence. And when Dennis Ott's defense attorney got a hold of this case, prosecutors were in for a big surprise. Somebody made a mistake in the forensics. As prosecutors prepared for Dennis Ott's murder trial,

Detective Parker was learning more about the relationship between the Coast Guard seaman and his wife. Say something. I am saying something. This guy's a very controlling person. You can't get any more. If your spouse comes to you and says, I don't want you going anywhere, and, oh, by the way, here, give me your driver's license, I'm tearing it up, and then takes your car and hides it, if they feel that you're slipping out of their control, what do they do?

I guess some people kill them. With no DNA, no fingerprints, no murder weapon, cops were certain Ott killed his wife, but they weren't sure how he did it. We were pretty confident that she didn't crawl in that bag by herself and somehow hop it into the river. Back in 1995, I was a reporter for the Appealed Democrat. You don't often see a military man on trial for a strange murder like this. Frank Hartzell had covered a lot of murder cases.

But this one was different. The autopsy report on Pawn Ott's body revealed elevated levels of carbon monoxide. Initially, they believed that she was killed by automobile asphyxiation, and I was very intrigued by that. Then, a week before the trial, Ott's defense attorney delivered prosecutors a bombshell. Sutter County District Attorney Investigator Vicki Van Atta. Our pathologist used some old methods, and they were able to get another pathologist

that said his methods weren't correct. So that got thrown out. Then what did they say the cause of death was? Well, we knew she was dead and it looked like possible strangulation. But it was never determined for sure? Never determined for sure. How often does that happen? I mean, how often does it happen that the theory of the crime is thrown out just before the trial and the prosecution continues just as if nothing had happened? And now we had no explanation for the cause of death. That was definitive. Sometimes you just don't have a cause of death.

You know, if you get a body in the water after about a week, you're going to start losing evidence of that. It's clear what evidence you didn't have. What evidence did you have? Well, we had evidence they got into a fight. He went to her work. He threatened to kill her. He called her all kinds of real bad names. Witnesses who heard him say,

I'll kill you, those words? Yes. And after that, she filed for a divorce and he got served divorce papers on the 15th of May. The last time Pond was seen alive was two days later, Sunday, May 17th, 1992. I can't imagine my son murdering anybody. I just don't see it. Grandma, who's this from? Dennis Ott's mother, Marin Atkinson, remembers how Pond's daughters, Tippi and Jeanette, called her grandma. In August 1995, she had a front row seat at her son's murder trial.

Watching Dennis handcuffed and shackled and everything, I just wanted to scream in agony. It was horrible. Prosecutors presented a pile of evidence against Ott, including a wooden fence post from his home and that H-shaped concrete anchor discovered inside the duffel bag. Remember, authorities believe the concrete used to weigh down Pond's body came from Ott's backyard. There was concrete found in the bag, but it was not an absolute match. So it was physical evidence, but not like DNA. Sometimes you make cases on circumstantial evidence, and it's just as good as direct evidence or anything else, especially if you have enough of it. One of the things that people said during your trial is, hey, you're from the Coast Guard.

The woman's body was found in the water. Doesn't that seem like something that somebody who's very familiar with the water, has spent his life on the water, would be capable of doing? I've been to the Bering Sea and on the water, would be capable of doing. I've been to the Bering Sea and across the Pacific Ocean and down south the equator. To equate the ocean with the Sacramento River is a very, very deep stretch of imagination. Reporter Frank Hartzell also paid close attention to Ott's demeanor in the courtroom. I remember him sitting there very stoically, very seeming unemotional, unreactive. He's thinking, why isn't this guy reacting?

And I wondered why we didn't hear more about him and more about his life. Maybe he just didn't make a good witness. Not everybody is a wonderful witness, but does that make him a killer? You both testified. What do you remember about testifying? I remember taking the stand and just crying immediately from state your name and spell your name. It's a lot to take in for being so young and to talk about your life

and what you remember and little details of putting the investigation together, bits and pieces, to help the detectives. It's very intimidating to sit and stare at the man. That did this to your mom. I don't recall what exactly was said during my testimony. You don't remember? I remember going in the courtroom, sitting down,

looking at a room full of people. I remember him sitting there. But as far as what I said during trial, I have no recollection of it. Jeanette may not remember, but what she told the jury was something she had never revealed to anyone in the three years since her mother's murder. On the witness stand, the teary 13-year-old testified she saw Dennis Ott put his hands on her mother's neck during one heated argument. How important do you think Jeanette's testimony was in your trial? Did you ever put your hands on your wife's neck?

No, not like that, no, never. Do you think that Jeanette was lying? No, I don't think it was a lie as such. I think what it was was an implanted memory. Memory, especially for a youngster, can be very malleable. especially for a youngster, to be very malleable. Ott is convinced Jeanette's testimony sealed his fate. The jury took just three and a half hours to reach a unanimous guilty verdict.

Did you kill your wife? No, I did not. It felt good to know that 12 other people believed us. They knew what we knew, that he did it. And we didn't need a confession from him to prove that. Now, more than 20 years after their mother's murder, Tippy and Jeanette would once again come face to face with their stepfather, the convicted killer Dennis Ott, who desperately wants a second chance at freedom. On a Friday morning, September 25, 2015, more than 20 years after their mother's murder,

Tippie and Jeanette make the 70-mile drive to the place Dennis Ott now calls home, California State Prison Solano in Vacaville, California. You know you're going to see him in just a couple of hours. It's a day they've been dreading, the parole hearing for their mother's convicted killer and their stepfather, Dennis Ott. An article about her mother in the hearing today. It's going to be an interesting day.

Is it like a trial waiting for a jury verdict for you guys? Pretty much. You're in a room, a very small room. You just have to sit feet away from the man who killed your mother. It's not something very easily to do. You can feel a palpable chill walking into the room. A chill in the room. I'm trying to imagine, I mean,

Jeanette and Tippi see you as their mom's killer. What was it like to sit face-to-face with them? I have so much sadness for those two little girls, and the fact that they are looking at me as the culprit is tragic, but still at the same time, it's something I have to face. Video cameras were prohibited at the hearing, but 48 Hours was granted permission to document it with a still camera. Is there a part of you that just wants to lunge across the room? Always. Always. How do you control that you that just wants to lunge across the room? Always. Always.

How do you control that? You just have to. Me jumping up and going across the table isn't going to benefit anybody. So I think you just have to grin and bear it and hold the bottom of your seat to keep yourself from jumping out of it. And hold the bottom of your seat to keep yourself from jumping out of it. We weren't allowed to photograph the two commissioners, a man and a woman, who presided over the hearing. Like trial lawyers, they grilled Ott about the crime and his time in prison. It's up to them to decide whether he'll get parole.

They are Dennis Ott's judge and jury. At its most basic level, our parole hearings in California, what we look at is who was the person at the time of the crime, who are they today, and what's the difference? Jennifer Schaefer is the executive director of California's Board of Parole Hearings. Has parole been successful in California? Yes, it has been quite successful in California. Why do you say that?

Because the recidivism rate is so low. Recidivism is when a person who's served time in jail or prison commits another crime. The recidivism rate for people who've been given parole after being sentenced to life is what? Less than 1% in California. It's a very difficult process. We have to find that the person no longer poses an unreasonable risk to public safety. The people that get out are people that have truly changed. Dennis Ott believes he has changed, and he says he wants to help other inmates, veterans like him, if he's granted parole. When you look at your file, it sounds like you're a model prisoner. Are you? Well, I believe so. I've also earned a couple of associate degrees in the last couple of years.

You know, I'm doing everything I can. I'm not trying to make the best of a bad situation. Tippy and Jeanette have said that the only reason you're doing all of these things is to make it look good when you come up in front of that parole commission. It's not true. I'm doing what I feel is only the right thing to do. And explain to me, how are we supposed to believe that? Well, that's something that you're either going to have to believe or not believe. I mean, I think that actions speak louder than words. He's over 60 years old now. He's served more than 20 years. Sutter County District Attorney Amanda Hopper represented Tippy and Jeanette at Ott's parole hearing

and prepared them for the possibility he could be released. I explained to them that I thought he had a decent chance. Do you think that Dennis Ott is a dangerous man still? I absolutely do. I absolutely think he is a danger to society in general and probably to the family. What makes you so sure? Because I sat there and I watched him and I watched the anger in his face. But more importantly, I've seen that he has absolutely no concept of accountability. And that may be a sticking point at his hearing.

Ott has always said he didn't kill his wife. And while inmates don't have to show remorse to get parole, Ott knows it might help. You know what, Dennis? It almost seems like it would be easier, certainly for Jeanette and Tippy, and maybe easier for you if you just admitted it. Admit guilt.

How interesting. It's not that I haven't thought about that. It would have been actually a whole lot easier a long time ago to say, yeah, I did this crime. But that's not true. I didn't kill Pond. I'm not going to say I did. Whatever the parole board decides, they are keenly aware the hearing process can be stressful for everyone in the room.

When people come to a parole hearing, it's because they feel compelled to come. It's not that we mandate that they be there. Is it fair to these victims' families? That's such a loaded question. Do I think it's fair that they have to go through the trauma of parole hearings? No. But I would not want us to do that process without sitting down and having a live hearing with the inmate. Han's family listened patiently for more than four hours during Ott's parole hearing.

Then it was Jeanette's turn to speak. What did you want the commissioners to understand? That he hasn't changed. That our family is victimized over and over again. I want them to know that even behind bars, there's a sense of control that he still holds and has and tries to maintain. The little girl who once hid behind a door during that explosive argument between her mother and stepfather stared him down and didn't hold back.

He deserves to rot and die in prison, plain and simple. He took everything from us, everything. And I want to take everything from him now. While the parole board decides Dennis Ott's fate, Tippi and Jeanette wait. They have families of their own now and can only imagine what life would be like if their mother's killer is set free. I don't want to see him outside of the walls of that prison, which is where he needs to be, where he deserves to be. I don't want my children to ever see him.

But I'm not scared of him. If you had a chance to see him one-on-one, what would you do? I don't know. I'm sure there'll be a lot of words exchanged, and I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be able to sit in my seat as I am now. Look at Tippy and Jeanette, you know? This monster took their mother away at the worst possible time in their lives. How about you?

What are your emotions? Well, look at my hand right now. Angry. Angry. I'll be 93 in November, and I hope Dennis can come home. I hope we can have some good years together, because he deserves it. Marin Atkinson is anxious to spend her final years with her son Dennis as a free man. She knows life is short, and tomorrow is not promised.

I'm living because I want him to get out. I feel like if I become a hunter, I'll go up there and bang on the doors. And, you know, really, it doesn't make sense that he has to stay in prison. But for now, his cell will be his home. After five hours of testimony, the board would take less than one hour to decide Ott should stay in prison. Parole denied. So, Dennis, why do you think you didn't get parole?

Why didn't I get parole? The fact that I do not accept or admit culpability for this crime. They always go back to that. The parole commissioners called you evasive. Were you being evasive? That moment when you heard parole denied, how did you feel? You exhale. You get a brief sense of satisfaction. Another small victory. Yeah, but we'll be back here again. And hopefully again. When the hearing was over, an observer noticed one of the commissioners, the man, seemed teary-eyed.

These decisions that the parole commissioners are making are life-changing, obviously for the inmates, for victims' families. How heavily does that weigh on them? It's a very difficult job. Reading the crime reports, reading transcripts of criminal trials, it weighs very heavily on them. In just two and a half years, Ott gets another chance for parole. His life sentence has become their life sentence, too.

It doesn't end. It never ends for the families. We're victimized over and over again. It's frustrating. In the meantime, Jeanette and Tippie are waging their next battle. March of 2015, I was diagnosed with stage 3 lung cancer. And in June or July, we learned it spread to my pelvis area. And at that point, because I had metastasized, I was bumped to stage four. Do you ask that, why me? My gosh, didn't you suffer enough?

What more can one person be given in one lifetime? She has to get through it. I can't be without her. She's all I have left. And she'll beat it like she always does. I love you. I love you. I love you, too. When they were young, Jeanette and Tippy often wondered

about the fishermen who discovered their mother. Come on, girls. Grandpa's here. I won't bite. And over the years, he wondered about them, too. We arranged for the three of them to meet. My goodness, look at you two. You don't look anything like I remembered. It's a pleasure.

I told you to keep it together. Oh, that's all right. Thank you. They met for the very first time at a marina on the Sacramento River. I told you to keep it. Oh, that's all right. Thank you so much. They met for the very first time at a marina on the Sacramento River. My, you've grown up into some good-looking chickens. Thank you. Thank you.

It's the place where their mother, Pawn, was found. It was right here. It's where we brought your mother in. Why would we be if you had not found her? There's no telling, darling. I know. It's a chance to look back with gratitude before starting down the rough road ahead. Look at us 20 years later,

and it's just as hard today as it was yesterday. And the year before that and the day it happened it doesn't end wow it's so peaceful out here it is Dennis Ott's next parole hearing is scheduled for October 2017. Tippie's health is better and both she and Jeanette plan to continue fighting Dennis Ott's release. Tippie and Jeanette share their emotional journey at 48hours.com. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.