48 Hours - Eric Smith: Gambling on a Killer

Episode Date: March 27, 2022

When he was 13 years old, he committed an unthinkable crime. 28 years later, Smith is out on parole. What’s next for him? "48 Hours" contributor Jim Axelrod reports.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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ConstantContact.ca He was convicted of a monstrous act. Eric Smith has served 28 years for the killing of four-year-old Derek Robey in 1993. We never forget our boy. He was, you know, a wonderful child, and we miss him terribly. Happy birthday, Eric. Happy birthday to you. Yeah, a lot of people don't know the full gamut of what we go through,

and nor should they. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It's the first time I've ever let him go anywhere alone, and it was one block down the same side of the street. When you have a family member that has been murdered, every time that inmate is up for parole, you relive, I think, what happened. There are clearly people who make choices

which reflect pure evil. In my view, this heads the list. The events of that morning of August 2nd, 1993. Riding through the woods. He gave me a kiss and I said, I love you. He says, I love you, Mom. And he went hopping off the sidewalk. At some point during the midday, I learned that a child was missing in the village of Savona.

And consequently, a search for Derek began. Late in the afternoon, the body of Derek Robey was found. It was just a brutal, brutal killing. I've lost my boy. You know, we've lost him. He's gone. Our instinct was to believe the killer was some adult evil person. Love you, Eric.

Love you, Eric. Love you, buddy. Love you. And it's another kid. What do you think is going to happen? So you find the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree? Yes. Is that unanimous?

Yes. Eric Smith was sentenced to nine years to life in prison. First time before the parole board. Denied. We knew the first one was coming, but then after that, we got to do this every two years. First time before the parole board, denied. We knew the first one was coming, but then after that, we got to do this every two years. For them, every two years must have felt like every ten minutes. Second time before the panel, denied. It upsets me, the fact that we have to beg to keep this killer behind bars.

Can you foresee the day when you would say, I don't care whether they let him out or not? No, we'll take this pain to our grave. That one, daddy! 2006, parole denied. 2008, parole denied. You can make with me a monster, a cold-blooded killer, a demon child, Satan incarnate. 2010, parole denied. 2012, denied. I don't care what the name you give me, doesn't mean that that's who I am. 2014, 2016, 2018, denied, denied, denied. I can live in society and function as any other normal individual. Ooh, that last sentence was a chilling one. Another normal individual.

Boy, is that a reach. Parole granted. Eric Smith, who gained national attention almost three decades ago for killing a four-year-old, has been set free. In Savona, there's one small grocery store on the main street. And all I could imagine was Doreen Roby standing in line at the checkout line and looking behind her and seeing the person who killed her son. Thank you. After being locked up for 28 years, Eric Smith, who at age 13 murdered a child, is now free.

He's out on parole here in Queens, New York. Smith insists he's a changed man, deserving of freedom, that he has a plan for a fresh start, even a fiancé. But others worry Eric Smith is still a flat-out threat. Dale and Doreen Roby feared this day would come. Our story begins with them.

Dan Rather covered the case for 48 hours when it first broke. In the summer of 1993, Derek Roby and his family lived just down the street from this park. It was and still is the social center of the small town of Savona, New York. You're looking at me. Watch the ball, hon. Dale Robey coached tee ball. It was his son Derek's favorite game. Here you go. This one's for you, Mommy. Good job, Deej.

Derek was all boy all the time. You know, he was going to get me a home run. He usually did. He loved it. Derek also attended a recreation program here at the park, and Doreen Roby always watched as her son made the short trip. But one August morning, Derek's baby brother was crying, and Doreen Roby had her hands full.

Dalton was very fussy that morning, and Derek says, It's okay, Mom, I'll go by myself. You know, it's no problem. The kids are probably going down the street. Derek was nearly five and knew the route very well, so Doreen Roby allowed him to walk by himself. She packed his lunch, and off he went. He gave me a kiss, and I said, I love you. He says, I love you, ma'am.

So he has a block, only a block to go. No streets to cross. No. It was a dead-end street. It's the first time I've ever let him go anywhere alone. A short time later, as storm clouds moved in, Dory felt something close to panic. I had an awful feeling. It began to pour, and Doreen Robey had an overwhelming sense that something was wrong. And I swear that that was the moment he died.

You believe that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that he was the moment he died. You believed that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that he was letting me know. Derek was very close to us. If there was any way he could tell us he was leaving, he would have tried. Doreen raced to the park to pick up Derek. She was told that he had never arrived. Nearly five hours later, searchers found Derek's body in a small patch of woods. He was told that he had never arrived.

Nearly five hours later, searchers found Derek's body in a small patch of woods, just a few yards from the park and a few hundred yards from his own front door. Blow kisses. Derek had been choked and beaten to death with rocks. Neighbors placed a cross at the scene. The biggest thing I remember was... Go ahead. Is that when you told your dad that you wouldn't be able to do the things that he did with you? I got one! I got one! Daddy, come here!

Keep reeling. I got him! Derek's first big fish, yay. The streets of Savona were empty as worried parents kept their children inside. The immediate assumption was that Derek Roby's killer was a stranger from out of town. That's what Eric Smith's grandfather believed. When this terrible thing was done, I think everybody, including myself, thought it was an adult. How could anybody do such a terrible, terrible thing?

Grandpa! Grandpa! Eric Smith grew up just across town. Okay, Eric, let me see your stuff. And liked to spend time with his grandparents, Red and Edie Wilson. He always come in and give us hugs and kisses. Hi. Hi. He loved being a clown. He liked clowning around.

He definitely wanted to be paid attention to. Yeah. But Eric's bright red hair and freckles made him a target at school for years. And as a teenager, he was seen peddling around town for hours on end, alone. Why did he do it? I don't know why he did it. I asked him why he did it. His words almost verbatim were, I don't know, I just saw this kid, this blind kid, and I wanted to hurt him. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park.

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In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true Crime shows early and ad-free right now. It's hard to comprehend somebody doing what Eric Smith did.

On August 2, 1993, the body of Derek Robey was found in a small patch of woods, midway between the park where he was headed and his home. He chose to end Derek Roby's life. And he chose to do it in a way that was much more than just killing. Prosecutor John Tunney vividly remembers the crime scene and the brutality of the murder. He could have simply killed Derek, but he chose not to simply kill Derek. Directly behind us is the scene where the homicide occurred. Charles Wood was lead investigator. The evidence showed that Derek was lured from the sidewalk and strangled.

The killer's identity was then still unknown. Then he discovered and dug up one very large rock and one smaller rock, and he battered Derek with those rocks. He went into Derek's lunch bag, and he smashed a banana and took Derek's Kool-Aid, and he actually poured that Kool-Aid into the wounds that had been made by the large rocks. And he sodomized Derek with a small stick that he had found.

Lastly, the killer arranged Derek's body. The left sneaker had been removed and was lying near Derek's right hand, and his right sneaker had been removed and was lying near Derek's left hand. It almost looked like the body had been posed in that position. in that position. Eric continued to deal with Derek's body because he wanted to, because he chose to, and most frighteningly, because he enjoyed it. The word enjoy, so disturbing in this context, would come up again and again in the course of the investigation. The very first time was four days after the murder, when Eric Smith walked into the police command center to see if he could be of help in solving the crime. Totally enjoyed it. Totally enjoyed it. Didn't want it to end.

This is John Hipsch. He and other investigators repeatedly talked with Eric Smith and had no idea the killer was sitting right in front of them i mean he's looking right at me he's you know he's kind of hunched over a little bit and he's very very upbeat very happy uh he likes the fact that he's being talked to at first eric denied seeing derrick robey but then he abruptly changed his story this is right across the street from the open field and and that's where I saw Derek. And when he said that, he about knocked me off the chair.

He's putting him right on top of the crime scene. I mean, you just got to walk across an open field, and you're at the scene where the murder was. So we asked him, well, what was he wearing? And he went on, he said he had a white T-shirt on, and he had this lunch bag in his hand. Can you tell me about the lunch bag? And he said, it was kind of cool, really.

Investigators pushed Eric to pinpoint where he last saw Derek. And that's when he started to get emotional. His voice started cracking. He put his head down, and he brings his fist up, and his fists were vibrating a little bit, and he goes, you think I killed him, don't you? Myself and the other two investigators are just like, wow. Eric asked to take a break and his father brought him a glass of Kool-Aid.

Just as we get back into it again about where he'd seen Derek again, he grabs the red Kool-Aid and just throws it on the ground. Now, we all knew that Derek, the boy that was killed, had red Kool-Aid and just throws it on the ground. Now, we all knew that Derek, the boy that was killed, had red Kool-Aid spilled all over him. You know, I'm thinking that, you know, this kid's seen something that's very, very traumatic, and there's a block in there, and I can't get around it. The next day, investigators asked Eric to get his bike

and show them where he was when he saw Derek Robey. Okay, why don't you go up here and you start. Investigator Wood was there. And as you can see from this police videotape, Eric looks calm as can be. During the reenactment, I would have to say he enjoyed it. He was having a good time. But it quickly became obvious that Eric could not have seen all that he described from the distance he claimed to be.

There was a discrepancy in Eric's story. Red Wilson, Eric's grandfather, says the family knew Eric was hiding something. In no way did we feel that he had done it. We felt that he knew something. Maybe somebody had threatened him that's why he wouldn't tell five days after he was killed derek robey was buried in his baseball uniform just two days later, his killer confessed. I was there.

I was there when my grandson confessed. And it was... It was terrible. Family members sat Eric down and begged him to tell what he knew. The truth was more terrible than they ever imagined. And he just said what? I'm sorry, Mom. I'm sorry.

I killed that little boy. It's still hard to believe. I love you, Eric. I love you, Eric. I love you, Eric. I love you, Eric. The question is, you know, to me, why, how? How could I take the life of a little boy? All rise. A year after Eric's confession, the question remains.

What could possibly compel this child to kill another? Does he know what he's done? Does he know what's wrong? A stricken community is looking to this courtroom for an answer. The evidence that you're going to hear in this case is going to be horrible. Will the trial of Eric Smith put an end to the mystery that began on August 2, 1993, the last day of Derek Roby's short life. All rise. The county court is now in session. The Honorable Donald G. Purple Jr. presiding.

The trial of the people versus Eric Smith is finally underway. He's about that tall. He weighed 40 pounds. Prosecuting attorney John Tunney. He lived four years and ten months. And that person killed him. Eric Smith choked and battered the young life out of Derrick Roby. Look at Dad. In New York State, murder is the one crime for which a 13-year-old can be tried in adult court.

You're a father of five. That's correct. You must have thought about that, must think about it in the context of trying a 13-year-old son of another family. Yes, but you know where I first thought of it? It was when I looked at 4-year-old Derek Roby. The face of every one of my five children was superimposed on that child's body. Tee, tee, tee. At the heart of this trial, the haunting question, why did Eric kill?

The fact is that Eric chose to do something horrible. Defense attorney Kevin Bradley says there was no choice. Eric Smith suffers from a very serious mental disease. To pick this up and throw this down on a little boy's head, does that suggest calm, deliberate action, a plan? You're going to hear testimony by people that say, Eric just seemed like a normal child. And then the rage explodes.

It does not diminish the fact that he understood what he was doing. Tunney says it's murder, plain and simple. Eric analyzed the situation and chose to do it. To help him with his case, Tunney will be calling on Derek's parents, Dale and Doreen Roby. She has to personalize the tragedy, the loss, the terror, to bring Derek Roby, the person, into that courtroom. Describe Derek. He was my cute little firecracker. But bringing Derek Roby into the courtroom...

Come on, Derek, run! He was my little t-ball player. He was a very good athlete. ...is not going to be easy. How did he get along and interact with people? Derek participated in the recreation program. What was he participating in? I'm going to object again at this point. The judge agrees, and Doreen is not permitted to say much at all about Derek.

Go, Mommy, kiss. I wish I would have gotten a chance to talk about Derek a little more. You know, it really wasn't fair that I didn't get to tell them what kind of kid he was. It's time for the defense to present its case. Bradley begins by calling on two people who know more about Eric than anyone else. His mother, Tammy Smith, and his stepfather, Ted Smith. The jury heard that as a toddler, Eric threw temper tantrums and banged his head on the floor. He had speech problems, was held back in school, and relentlessly bullied.

He would say things like, I'm stupid, I'm nobody, I'm, you know, I'm never going to be anybody, that kind of stuff. I remember him coming up to me in the kitchen. He was really upset, and he was crunching his fists and shaking and told me, he said, Dad, I need help. I feel like I want to hurt somebody. And he said, Yes, I do. I want to hurt something. At one point, he turned and told me that he did it.

I asked him why, and he just kept saying, I don't know, I don't know, and he cried. Defense psychiatrist Dr. Stephen Herman diagnosed Eric with intermittent explosive disorder, uncontrollable rage. People who have this disorder describe feeling as if they're about to explode. After the episodic rage, the child may appear to be, quote, normal.

An expert for the prosecution disagreed with Dr. Herman's diagnosis. It's a rare disorder, rarely seen at the age that Eric is. And specialists from both sides subjected Eric to extensive medical testing. They examined brain function, hormone levels, and found nothing to explain his violent behavior. Because of the sexual nature of his crime, the question of whether Eric was abused was repeatedly raised at trial, but repeatedly denied.

Did he indicate to you generally and consistently that he had not been either physically or sexually abused? Yes, he has always indicated that. However, there was testimony that Eric's older sister, Stacy Hebner, was sexually abused by their stepfather. He molested me. I'd want to know if he was molested. There had to have been something bothering him. Still, there was absolutely no evidence that Ted Smith or anyone else sexually abused Eric. Are there issues? Are there problems?

Sure, but it does not regularly produce killers. Did he know what he was doing? Did he know when he was strangling Derek that he was strangling a child? And if he knew that what he was doing was wrong, that he shouldn't have been doing it, then he can have every psychological, psychiatric problem in the world, and he's still responsible for what he did. Under the law. Under the law.

But what does the jury believe? She thinks they have a verdict. All rise. The county court is now reconvened. All rise. County court is now reconvened. So you find the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree? Yes. Is that unanimous?

Yes. Eric's parents, Ted and Tammy Smith, were devastated, convinced their child was sick. Take the young man in custody. He would be sentenced to the maximum, nine years to life in prison. The murdered boy's parents, Dale and Doreen Roby, cried with relief, not knowing that they were being sentenced too. The Robys, they're serving a life sentence. Every time that inmate is up for parole, they relive it.

So it's just a nightmare for them. It really felt like, you know, at a certain point, why do we have to? Wasn't the crime enough? In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn. And it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of them.

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Take the young man in custody. When Eric Smith was sentenced, was there a sense, now we can get on with our lives? You hear the nine years to life. And I think back then, everybody was focusing on the life side of it. Dale and Doreen Roby were relieved that the boy who murdered their beloved son was locked away. We were still trying to get over our loss. Then I think we almost got settled in for a year or two.

Then it hit us. What hit them was the harsh reality that Derek's killer would one day be eligible for release. Eric Smith's first parole hearing was in 2002. They could decide that, well, now he's done his time and we're going to let him go. It scares the hell out of me. The Robies weren't allowed inside the closed-door hearing, so they wrote letters and made home videos to remind the board about their devastating loss. It upsets me, the fact that we have to beg to keep this killer behind bars. It upsets me, the fact that we have to beg to keep this killer behind bars.

Smith's parole was denied, but two years later, he was back before the board. Hi, my name is Eric Smith. You first met me 11 years ago. In 2004, Smith was 24 years old. This is a statement he read for our 48 Hours cameras. I know my actions have caused a terrible loss in the Roby family, and for that I'm truly sorry. I think that Eric Smith was incredibly troubled. Leave me alone! And I think that he was a dangerous young man. Joni Johnston is a clinical forensic psychologist.

For more than 20 years, she's been evaluating inmates who are up for parole. When we're looking at a very inexact science, if you will, trying to predict whether somebody is dangerous, it's like balancing a scale. Are we willing to take a risk? Johnston has never met Eric Smith, but we asked her to look at his case. I don't see Eric Smith at all as a kid who snapped. I see him as a kid who escalated from herding animals starting at around age 11 and who eventually progressed to herding a child. She also read transcripts of his parole hearings. 2004 was really the most frightening.

This is somebody who goes into a tremendous amount of detail in terms of what he did. Back then, John Tunney shared some of what Smith told the parole board. Question. You convinced him to go to this field. What did you do next? Answer. Put my hands around him and strangled him. All these years later, Eric Smith's words are still chilling. When you were doing that, was that something that gave you a good feeling? Answer. At the moment, it did, yes.

Probably the most significant and frightening thing is this is the kid where the narrative seems to have been this kind of rage or this person's inability to control his anger, and yet the emotion he expresses is pleasure or enjoyment. Question. Why do you think that was? Answer. Because instead of me being hurt, I was hurting somebody else. Growing up, I was always picked on, disrespected, made fun of. Eric was tired of being the victim, in his mind. And he wanted to see what it felt like to be the victimizer. There's a question, Mr. Smith.

If you had not admitted to someone that you had done this, do you think it would have been a fair statement to say that you probably would have done it again? Answer, yes. That confirmed Tunney's belief that Smith, at 13, was a budding serial killer.

I was afraid then, and frankly, as I sit here now, I think that Eric Smith may very well have done it again. Because it was such a positive experience for him. It made him feel good. He got a lot out of it. Had he not been identified, he wouldn't have paid a price. The parole board's decision in 2004 was no surprise. But for the Robies, there was always another hearing looming.

Must have felt like a weight hanging right over your head. Yes. There's all of these really happy times that are supposed to happen throughout your life, but there's always that. We always got a letter about three or four months prior to that. Ours always fell around Christmas. You know, here putting the Christmas tree up and we're reading this letter that, here we go go again it just made me angry it's understandable that you know they would never want me to be out in society this is Eric Smith in 2009 just months before

his fifth parole hearing my anger wasn't directed at Derek at all. It was directed at all the other guys who used to pick on me. And when I was torturing and killing Derek, that was what I saw in my head. Smith, almost 30, was interviewed by WENY-TV as he prepared to face the board. The only thing that I can say to him is, I'm not the same person. There's not a day that goes by in some way, shape or form that I'm like forced to remember what I did. I'm automatically thinking I killed Derek and the pain that I caused Dale, Doreen, and Logan.

The problem is how sincere is it versus how contrived or calculated it is. I certainly can't tell as I sit here. You can't? No. For us to have any real hope, he has to be accurate when he says, you know, I'm different, I'm self-aware, and I have every reason in the world to behave. It's not a question of does he believe it. Right. Is it true?

Is it accurate? Exactly. I did kill Derek. And for that, you know, I am sorry. And there's nothing I can do to bring him back. I mean, if I could switch places with him and take the grave for him to live, I'd do it in a second. Remorse is important, for sure. Joni Johnston also wants to know if it's the truth,

but cautions that expressions of remorse at a parole hearing can be difficult to judge. Is it genuine remorse? Let me tell you, there is no psychological test. There is no face. There is no behavioral indicator of remorse. We don't really know if this remorse is real. The parole board in 2010 turned him down again. But as the years passed, Johnston says Smith seemed to be changing.

You're starting to see some compassion from him for other people. So I'm seeing a little bit of hope for him now. Is Eric Smith growing, or is he simply refining his message? I think both. Certainly parole boards have to always separate that out, which is why they're not just relying on what this inmate is saying in the parole hearing. You know, thank the Lord.

They're going to be looking at all this person's history, what has this person done or not done in the two years since he's been here. They're looking at the parole interview as one piece of that puzzle. But for the Robys, decades of endless parole hearings have taken a toll. It's not fair that we have to keep doing this. Did you ever lose the energy to keep going with this? I can't anymore. Yeah, I mean, he would say, but we're doing it for him in his memory. And I'm like, you're right.

And I know that some people probably think, geez, you should just get over this and move on. But any parent that has ever lost a child knows that you don't ever get over it. don't ever get over it. On October 5th, 2021, 41-year-old Eric Smith went before the parole board for the 11th time. You have somebody who's completed a ton of programs. He's got some more educational goals. His risk is low, according to risk assessment that had been done. Smith even told them he was engaged. He says his fiancée was studying to be a lawyer and wrote him asking about the juvenile justice system. Over time, he says, they ended up falling in love. Eric Smith, at 13, is not the same person that he is at 31 or at 41.

He has changed. We all change. You kind of go, what else can he do to prove that he is no longer a danger to society? Now we're at the point where it becomes, is this about punishment or about rehabilitation? Breaking news. The Savona man who killed a four-year-old boy in 1993 has been granted parole. Dale was at work when he heard the news he'd been dreading for so many years and called Doreen. We found each other on the porch and gave each other a hug. I have some sympathy for the people who are called upon to make that decision. And that's why I have such hope that they're right.

At the end of the day, still a little bit of a gamble. Oh, no, no. It's a huge gamble. This parole decision is a high-risk enterprise, to be sure. enterprise, to be sure. Do you think Eric Smith has changed? Go back to the beginning and review the case at 48hours.com. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly. Introducing the best idea yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time,

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Weeks after Eric Smith was granted parole, dozens gathered in Savona to peacefully protest his release. They wanted to remember Derrick because all the attention was now on Eric being released, so they didn't want people to forget. It was very touching. Many in Savona feared Smith wanted to move back to live with his mother. I wasn't so much worried about us as I was everybody else. I just knew where a lot of the people in town, the village, stood.

You know, we don't want him here. We better not send him here. And the parole board agreed. Smith's release was delayed for months until approved housing was found for him in Queens, New York, more than 200 miles away from Savona. This is breaking news from News 8. Eric Smith, who's been behind bars for nearly three decades, is no longer in prison.

And then on February 1st, 2022, after being locked up for 28 years, Eric Smith quietly slipped out of Woodburn Correctional Facility, out of view of cameras, a free man. I understand why after so many years they decided to give him a chance. And that's fine. You know, for him and his family.

It would begin a new chapter for the Robies, who had fought for so long to keep Smith in prison. You know, he's been released, but in a way, so have we. No more parole. I can get on with our lives. Now the true healing can begin. Doreen says part of the healing process has been letting go of her anger.

I would rather laugh than cry any day of the week. If you let it, it's going to eat you alive. The anger. Yes. The Robies say they choose not to think about Eric Smith, but instead focus on friends and family, especially their son Dalton, now 30. You have to find the joy in life. You have to enjoy each other because life is way too short.

And just live. August 2nd, the day we lost him, we always try to go do something fun. White ice cream with sprinkles. That's what Derek called vanilla, so we try to do a... Wherever we are, we have to go have... We have to go find ice cream.

Even though it's sad, it's happy. You know? As for Eric Smith, since his release, we've been unable to contact him. But in 2009, he told WENY-TV he had big plans for his future. I want to, you know, get married, raise a family, you know, hold on, you know, a job, pursue the American dream. He also said he wanted to counsel kids who've been bullied, just like he had been. The question is, will Eric Smith be a success story or somebody that we're pointing to and saying, system blew it with that one? That's exactly right.

I keep going back to my hope. Time will tell. Back in the summer of 1993, to honor Derek Roby, volunteers, including Eric Smith's great-grandfather, bulldozed the scene of the crime and put in a new ball field in memory of the little tee ball player. Watch the ball, hon. Today, up on the hill, watching over the field, is a statue of Derek. It was sculpted by Doreen's uncle and funded by people from all over the country. Dedicated to be a gentle reminder of what childhood is meant to be, Derek J. Roby.

is meant to be. Derek J. Roby. Hi. I love that he's the only person in town that has a statue. A lot of people called him the mayor of Savona because he was... Busy on the corner. He was pretty well known. At four years and ten months? Yes. He just, he was so much fun.

He just was a great kid. A Silicon Valley executive worth millions kidnapped. Char was in the prime of his life. Very brilliant, relaxed, but highly motivated. He was dabbling in the cannabis industry as well. He was targeted for a reason. Where are you to, Char?

What happened? 48 Hours, Saturday on CBS. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.