48 Hours - Karrie's Choice

Episode Date: March 24, 2019

Could a teenager be brainwashed by one parent to help murder the other parent -- and then make it look like a suicide? "48 Hours" correspondent Erin Moriarty investigates.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. Today is February 13th, 2018. We are currently at the Stubank County Sheriff's Office conference room. Present is Carrie Nyrider and also her attorney. The time now is 10 58 a.m. At what point did your dad first approach you with this plan?

It was him and I. We were home. He was saying like that he was going to kill himself. He brought up that there was this other option kind of thing where he wanted to kill my mom. First bite. Oh, Carrie, don't push the bib up. Carrie is doing a good job. The story in my eyes is about Lloyd and Michelle. And there's the door, and there's my husband. He was such an attentive father.

Wow. I thought he was a really amazing person. He's very charismatic, shows a lot of care. Care is too cold to be happy. Michelle is a lot of care. Michelle is truly a brilliant person. She's got a wonderful sense of humor and this great wit. What's your favorite toy outside, Carrie? My baby swing. Your baby swing?

My first impression was that they were sort of like a very perfect, ideal family. And they were really good at putting up that front. But over time, that perception sort of started to change. I was Michelle's lawyer. Her husband had filed for divorce. Michelle was surprised that he filed for divorce. She was a stay-at-home mom. She had done everything she thought she could do to make him and the family happy.

Carrie was at RIT. She was set to graduate in another year. She says her dad came to her. I can't afford to pay the bills. I can't afford to pay your mother. There's no way out. I have to kill myself. I'm sorry.

You guys have to go on without me. Or I got plan B here. You were trying to kill my mom. It's so... It's true. He made you choose? No. I don't want to sign it.

There's something strange happening at our friend's house. I thought I saw the mother standing in the stairway, but she's motionless. And I could see through to the stairs and see that somebody was clearly at the bottom of the stairs. And they looked like they needed some sort of help. Did you ever think this case would go the way it did? No. 2993 for an update. We're out with a male subject on the top floor of the Spring Street garage. He's on the ledge.

Do you have live video of this up there? We just don't have cases like this where this level of pervasive evil trickles through an entire life and then ends in such a horrific event. No, no, please, on top of the parking garage, he's gonna jump. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access,

I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. The scary cult classic was set in the Chicago housing project. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. Candyman. Candyman? Now, we all know chanting

a name won't make a killer magically appear, but did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. We're going to talk to the people who were there, and we're also going to uncover the larger story. My architect was shocked when he saw how this was created. Literally shocked. And we'll look at what the story tells us about injustice in America. If you really believed in tough on crime,

then you wouldn't make it easy to crawl into medicine cabinets and kill our women. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, wherever you get your podcasts. We're out with a male subject on the top floor of the Spring Street Garage. On a cold January day in 2018, 45-year-old Lloyd Nyreider was surrounded by local and state police. He's on a ledge on the fifth story of a parking garage in Princeton, New Jersey, threatening to jump. It wasn't supposed to end this way.

Almost 30 years earlier, in 1989, 16-year-old Lloyd had fallen for an older classmate, Michelle Launde. They were going to the same high school, and she was graduating, and we told her she could invite friends, and she invited Lloyd. Michelle's mother, Jeannie, remembers how quickly the relationship developed. How did she feel about him?

Oh, she was falling in love. I turned down two husbands and wife. Two years later in 1991, Michelle and Lloyd tied the knot. The newlyweds headed off to college. Will we be lovey-dovey now? No. Michelle gave birth to a daughter and two years later, a second child, Carrie. Who's that? It's my sister, Carrie. Well, hi, Carrie.

The family settled in the upstate New York community of Corning. Steuben County District Attorney Brooks Baker. It's the kind of place where a lot of folks still don't lock their doors. Corning is a quaint family place. doors. Corning is a quaint family place, best known as the headquarters of Fortune 500 company Corning Glass. Lloyd worked there as an engineer. Hi, Mama. Hi. Michelle gave birth to a third daughter and she homeschooled the kids. I'm making a movie of you. You are? I'm afraid I'm not being very interesting right now. Later, she would teach at a local college.

She was an English professor when I met her, so she was big on reading and writing, and she would always really encourage her girls to be well-spoken and educated. Meena Raj met the Nye-ye Riders' middle daughter, Carrie, in ballet class. Hi, my name is Carrie, and my dance is the three little pigs. And the two quickly bonded. All of our dance families were very close. Her mother, Cynthia, would become one of Michelle's closest friends.

When's the very first time you met Michelle? I met Lloyd first because he would bring the children to class, dance classes. He would do their hair, and the mothers were rather smitten with him. But as Cynthia's daughter Mina spent more time with Carrie, she became concerned about Lloyd's overbearing parenting style. There were times when I'd call my mom and tell her that I was worried about

how strict of a disciplinarian he was for really, really small things. It was sort of like you never knew when he would snap. And if he decided he was mad at one of them, he would call them over, yell front and center, have them drop to their knees in front of everyone. The first time I witnessed that, Carrie was very close to me, and I could physically see her body shaking. I've seen him slap them. Slap?

Across the face. On the face, yeah. Would he do things to Michelle? He would put her down with a smile on his face. And then, around Thanksgiving 2007, Michelle suddenly cut ties with her parents. Her mother believed Lloyd was behind the rift. What do you think happened? I think that he threatened her, either to harm the children or to harm her.

either to harm the children or to harm her. She said, Cynthia, it was Lloyd that made me cut off contact with him. He didn't want her to have a place to go if she wanted to leave. But it turned out to be Lloyd who left the following year. In 2008, he took a new job in New Jersey, leaving Michelle and the kids behind in Corning. Once he was gone, Michelle seemed like a different person. Better. Better. She seemed much more relaxed.

And in 2013, after the couple had divorced, Michelle moved into this new house with the girls. And that's when the real trouble began. Lloyd wanted sole custody of the children. Lloyd was relentless in using the legal system to harass Michelle. It just never ended. Michelle's divorce attorney, Susan Betjotomer.

There were 26 separate sets of filings post-divorce. And how unusual is that? That is super unusual. If you have two or three, it's a lot. To have 26 is astounding. And what was he suing for? What were these filings for? He continually filed things, making false claims against Michelle.

Lloyd was trying to get out of child support. And Michelle accused Lloyd of trying to turn the kids against her. The oldest daughter was already living with Lloyd, and Carrie had gone off to college. But Lloyd continued to fight for custody of their youngest child, them 14 years old. We agreed not to show recent pictures of her. I think anybody who worked in the courthouse had heard about the Nye Ryder case, this husband and wife were going at it nonstop. So this is one of those cases that everybody sort of heard about or talked about over the water cooler or at a bar outing the name came up. It was one of those cases that just didn't go away.

But in late August 2017, Lloyd did something unusual. Susan got this text from Michelle. And she says, I'm in shock. Lloyd did not show up for the appearance for his petition for sole custody. He did not withdraw. He did not ask for an adjournment. He did not answer the court's phone calls or emails, nothing. How unusual is that for him, knowing how many of these violences he's made? It was very unusual. It was very unusual. It was unthinkable, really. Because of Lloyd's no-show, the case was dismissed. Michelle seemed relieved and happy.

It was summer, and she had a mutual friend of ours and the children sliding on big blocks of ice down a hill of grass. Two days later, Monday, August 28, 2017, a family friend came to pick up the Nye Riders 14-year-old for swim practice. Instantly, he knew something was very wrong. Nye, I want something. Something strange happening at a friend's house. Corning Police Sergeant John McDivitt was the first to respond to Michelle's house that afternoon. All right, so tell me what you did.

So I walked up to the front door here, and through these three panes of glass, I could see inside, and I could see a female laying at the bottom of the stairs. Opened the door. A dog came running out. I came running in. And as I got closer, I could see

there was a rope around her neck. There was no pulse. She was cold and stiff to the touch. Here, he found 46-year-old Michelle Nyrider dead. So your first thought when you saw her was what? It appears to be a suicide by hanging. But Corning Police chief Jeff Spalding wasn't so sure because you couldn't figure out how she got a mark here no I didn't I didn't like that that was unsettling it appeared as though somebody had

gone behind and thrown a rope over the neck and pulled back and down and caused that. What's more, Michelle's youngest child, the 14-year-old at the heart of the custody battle and who was supposed to be picked up for swim practice, was nowhere to be found. Obviously, the number of possible outcomes there that are bad is tremendous. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand,

lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still a virgin. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it,

people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn Trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely, Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bolder risk takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario,

the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party.

So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just The best idea yet. I said, if we checked basements, if we checked attics? Have we checked garages? In the hours after police arrived at Michelle Nyreider's home, a frantic search was on. Lieutenant Jeff Heverly couldn't find her 14-year-old daughter anywhere.

She should have been around. I knew that she resided with Mom. Later that day, he got a phone call. This is Lieutenant Heverly. Can I help you? Hi, my name is Carrie. It was 19-year-old Carrie Nyrider, Michelle's middle child. My friends called me earlier today and told me about my mom and that she, I'm sorry. That's okay. Take your time. They called and told me that my mom called me.

Carrie told the officer that her younger sister was safe. And she's still with you now? Yeah, she's in my apartment. She was nearly 100 miles away with Carrie in Rochester, New York. Carrie then told Heverly how it happened. She had driven back to Corning late Saturday night to spend one last night in her bedroom at home. When I got there,

my mom started freaking out. She would freak out a lot. Carrie said her mother raged at her, accusing her of taking her father's side in their family court battles. So she started freaking out and screaming, and she woke up and was afraid and she went to her room and she was yelling. Carrie says she decided to leave, taking her younger sister with

her. She claimed that she was concerned for her younger sister. So she had taken her outside, put her in the car and then had driven her to Rochester. While police were relieved that Michelle's youngest was safe, Carrie's story didn't really make sense. Why would Michelle be so upset on the same day she had been celebrating her court victory? Those who knew Michelle best couldn't believe she'd take her own life. I never believed it. She was determined to have a successful life, and she did. She had a great job, and it was not the place in her life

where she would have committed suicide after all of the really difficult years she had been through. While it appeared Michelle had hanged herself, there was that odd ligature mark on her chin. As police awaited the results of the autopsy... I thought we would get some definite results. They would say, oh yeah, 100%, this is a homicide. Or, yeah, 100%, this is a suicide.

But the medical examiner's conclusion surprised them. They tell us undecided, undetermined causation. Michelle's mother didn't need an autopsy to tell her what happened. I did not believe she killed herself. She immediately thought murder, and one name came to mind. I'm thinking it's more than likely Lloyd killed her, but I couldn't figure out how because he had an alibi. Lloyd Nyrider was in fact more than 2,500 miles away

in California for a job interview when police discovered Michelle's body. How long has he been in California? Since yesterday. Carrie told investigators all about it. Was he been in California? Since yesterday. Carrie told investigators all about it. Was he in Corning at all yesterday? No, he helped move me into my apartment on Saturday, but he wasn't in Corning. Even if Lloyd wasn't in Corning, he had been close, about 100 miles away. So all of a sudden, he's only an hour and change

away up in Rochester. Carrie says that after her father helped her move into a Rochester apartment on Saturday, he spent the night in a hotel and flew out to California the next day. He was still there when the family notified him of Michelle's death. He flew back east and within 36 hours showed up at the Steuben County Family Court. He came to turn off his child support and maintenance payments. That's the first place he went when he had heard his ex-wife had committed suicide? That's correct. Police caught up with him outside the courthouse. Investor Gatorvoli? Hey, how are you? Good, just cautious about how I approach a car. I don't want

to startle anybody. And they sit down in the investigator's car and they do a videotaped interview and have a long conversation. Did Michelle know she's coming or? She did, yes. Lloyd calmly echoes Carrie's story. In the hours before Michelle's death, he was in Rochester, helping Carrie move into her college apartment. I go check in at the mic hotel. Lloyd says he checked into that hotel Saturday. Hotel security cameras back him up. Carrie came over for a while. Dark parking lot video then shows both he and Carrie heading to her car.

I walked her out to the car. When you go back to the hotel? Yeah. I invited her to breakfast the next morning. And at 7 a.m. the next morning, cameras show Carrie arriving for breakfast, now with her 14-year-old sister in tow. And you also then checked his phone. Where was his phone during that time? Checked his phone. It kind of corroborated what Carrie had told us, that Dad stayed at the hotel.

But the hotel video tells a different story. When Lloyd walked Carrie to her car that night, he could be seen getting in the car with her and then driving off. And the video doesn't show him coming back that night. So while Lloyd's phone was in the hotel room all night, where was Lloyd? Investigators had to wonder, especially when they looked at the hotel video from the next morning. We don't see Lloyd all night long. Here it is, 6.30 in the morning, and here he comes onto the camera. He's walking across the parking lot, and he's walking to his vehicle. He still appears to be wearing the same clothes that he had on the night before. Lloyd's story was that he stayed at the hotel room all night.

The video evidence is saying, no, he didn't. Police were now certain Lloyd was lying to them. They dug deeper, looking for a motive. He was not in a good financial place. Lloyd had over $100,000 in credit card debt, and he was paying his ex-wife almost $6,000 a month. Baker says that after Michelle's death, Lloyd tried to collect on Michelle's life insurance for a payout of $260,000. They suspected Lloyd killed Michelle and Carrie might be covering for him. So we decided to go up on a wiretap

on Lloyd's phone and Carrie's phone. I'm freaking out. Me too. Almost two and a half months after Michelle's death, police began listening in. Oh, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Hi, sweetie. How's your drive so far?

Oh, it's fine. Very good. In fall 2017, a little over two months after Michelle Nyrider's death, Corning Police began listening in on Lloyd and Carrie Nyrider's phone calls. Well, we didn't go up on the wire until mid-November. This had happened at the end of August, beginning of September. So it had been, you know, two months, and there wasn't a lot that was being said. So in order to, you know, kind of refresh things,'t a lot that was being said. So in order to, you know, kind of refresh things, we did what was called Tickle the Wire. Tickle the Wire. It's a ruse familiar to cops working drug cases. An investigator calls Carrie saying they have more questions.

Corning Police Chief Jeff Spallding played the recording for us. Hi, is this Carrie, the narrator? Yes, this is Chief. Okay. This is Investigator Volpe with Corning TV. The reason I was calling, I didn't know if you were going to be around, if you had time to meet up with me, or what time you might have to stop in to see me. I should be able to meet with you Monday if you're available. Okay.

After hanging up with police, Carrie quickly called her father. Just like we hoped, the next phone call is to Lloyd, saying, what do I do? What exactly did you tell him? I don't know. And Lloyd says, oh, it's probably just form. Don't worry about it. But then he says, and this is where we sort of put our doubts aside. He says, well, I don't think I want you talking to him. Tell him, I'm sorry. I got, I got a counseling appointment back in New Jersey tonight and tell him this has

been really hard on me. Yeah. Could you cry? I'm like. God, it would be nice if it was just over. That would be the dream. Why lie? Exactly. Why not just go sit down with the investigator, spend 20 minutes, and tell the same story you already have? Well, if it was anything more serious, I guess you'd have people coming after me anyways, right? Yeah, he wouldn't ask you to come walk in his front door. He'd say, I have a warrant.

Yeah. So it can't be that. Police are clearly suspicious. But with that undetermined official autopsy holding the case back, the DA asked a private forensic pathologist to take a new look and confirm finally whether Michelle was murdered. We take all the pictures from the autopsy, we take all the findings, the documentation, evidence, and we go and sit down with him. There was no body for him

to examine because Lloyd had Michelle's remains cremated. But the pathologist saw that rope mark on Michelle's chin and petechial hemorrhaging in her eyes. And then he leaps through a few more things, kind of the way doctors do, in silence, and says, this is a homicide. Michelle Nyrider was strangled to death. Police headed out to confront Lloyd and Carrie. I mean, at that point, you're thinking Lloyd's the ringleader. No question. Lloyd and Carrie. I mean, at that point, you're thinking Lloyd's the ringleader. No question.

Do you think that if, in fact, Carrie Nyrider was involved, she was going to be the weak link? I thought that she would be the weak link. You put her in an interview room without Dad, without her cell phone, and you do a hard interview with her, I thought she would be the first to give. On January 24, 2018, five months after Michelle's death, two investigators showed up at Lloyd's office in New Jersey. At the same time, a pair of state police troopers find Carrie at her college internship in Syracuse, New York. Was this your Hail Mary pass? Was this it? Yeah, that's what we considered game day.

Investigators break the news to Lloyd. And they say, Lloyd, look, we've got to tell you something. The medical examiners ruled this a homicide. Were you down there that night? No. Rochester. And so that night, you were in your hotel room all night? Okay. And they suggested

that, geez, Lloyd, maybe you want to take a lie detector test. And to my surprise, he said sure. So they gave him directions to a police station down in New Jersey where we had a polygraph operator that was already on call. Lloyd appeared confident in his innocence. 200

miles away in Syracuse, Carrie was anything but. Carrie cracks. Carrie cracks. My dad came down with me Saturday night. There it was. In barely a whisper on a police audio recording, Carrie admits her father went to her mother's house

with her that night, and she helped him get in undetected. You walk in the front door of the house. You tell me at this point, where was mom? She was at the top of the stairs. So she saw my dad come in. And then they started arguing. So he went upstairs, and it suddenly got very quiet.

At first, she tells police she didn't know why, but then she admits. You saw her? Yeah, I know you did. I know you did. I saw her. I saw her? Yeah. I know you did. I know you did. I saw her. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know.

I'm sorry. I just lost her. I'm sorry. When you saw her, was she still alive? No. It was one of those holy cow moments. It was like, wow. Investigators then took Carrie to a police station.

They wanted the whole story on video. She says her father came to her a week before the murder. She says her dad came to her and says, I can't afford to pay your mother. There's no way out. Lloyd gave Carrie an unfathomable ultimatum. And so basically he was going to kill himself. Or there was this way to make it so he would kill himself, which was killing my mom.

She says Lloyd laid out his plan. They would make it look like a suicide. I just don't want to tell her, Mom. It's my plan. And then put the rope around her neck and hang her. Carrie says she stayed downstairs, watching over her younger sister asleep in the living room. The commotion woke up Carrie's sister. Yeah, she woke up, so I had to take her out.

I was freaking out. I didn't know what was going on. I was like, oh my God. And then I put her in my car. When Lloyd was finished, he sneaked out the back of the house, around the side, and then climbed into the open rear hatch of Carrie's car. According to Carrie, her 14-year-old sister never knew her father was there. Police were now ready to arrest Lloyd. When you close the hatch, you're not going to be locked up, Jim. Police were now ready to arrest Lloyd. The only problem, he never showed up for that polygraph test.

He had disappeared. They lost him. And they did. They did lose him. But Lloyd still had his phone, and we still were up on the wire on Lloyd's phone. We knew that his phone was in downtown Princeton somewhere. They managed to trace it to a municipal parking structure and there on the roof was Lloyd Nyrider. When the officers moved in to confront Lloyd and to pick him up, he bolted and hopped up on the rail and threatened to jump off the five-story

parking garage to commit suicide. For two hours Lloyd and Eyewriter kept police at bay. When he turned his back, they made their move. This New Jersey State trooper who played football somewhere, he makes a 10-yard sprint and just flattens him. Tackles him. Lloyd was arrested and charged with first-degree murder of his ex-wife, Michelle Nyrider. How'd you do it, Carrie?

Their daughter, Carrie, who the police believed had been manipulated by Lloyd, faced second-degree murder charges for helping her father get into the house that night. What was your reaction when you heard that? Not Carrie. Not Carrie. In February 2018, District Attorney Brooks Baker began preparations to face off in a courtroom. This became essentially our nerve center, our war room for the trial.

This is not typical for the cases you usually try here. No. Even a murder case, usually we can survive in a box or two, but to go four or five boxes demonstrates how much material there was here. There's a reason why you have that up there, don't you? Yeah. This is Michelle's, the final day of Michelle's life. It is? It is. This is the Saturday she was murdered. This is a good, the final day of Michelle's life. It is? It is. This is a Saturday. She was murdered. This is a good day for them.

They went icing. You can't really see it, but they're on great big ice blocks. This reminds us why we're doing it, because this lady's not here to have another day like this. Baker knows his odds of convicting Lloyd will greatly increase if he can convince Carrie to testify against her father. She is looking at 15 years to life. If she cooperates with the understanding that if she does not cooperate and is not truthful at trial, she'll face 25 years to life.

truthful and trial, she'll face 25 years to life. It takes Carrie, sitting in a jail cell, a couple of weeks to decide. She agrees to testify against her father and plead guilty. But then, during an interview with investigators, she surprises everyone with a new detail. He opened the door and my mom was laying on the floor and he said he needed my help lifting her. Admitting for the first time, she had an even bigger role helping her father cover up the murder. We dragged her around the corner, and he tied the rope to the one prong of the banister

and lifted her up and put her over the side. Sorry. That's okay. Okay. She laid her hands on her mother and felt her mother's cold, dead body. That's pretty hardcore. This is the woman that gave you life, and you maybe didn't directly take her life,

but you helped the individual that did. It was so hard to understand. How could a child do this to her mother? Could Lloyd really have manipulated Carrie into this? And I had that same problem and even as we were preparing for trial I said Carrie you're gonna be asked that question. There was a moment when you your father says to you it's either I have to kill mom or or I kill myself and you have to help me. And those are the only two choices. And why?

She's a smart girl. She could have said no. Well, and, you know, all those folks in Jonestown could have said, we're not going to drink the Kool-Aid. You think she was brainwashed? I really think she was brainwashed. We found out that there is a definition for what he was doing. And are you talking about parental alienation?

Yes, I am, yeah. a definition for what he was doing. And are you talking about parental alienation? Yes, I am, yeah. Parental alienation. It's when one parent consistently badmouths the other in front of their children, and it's something Michelle worried about. In fact, in these court documents,

filed in the years preceding her death, Michelle actually accused Lloyd of turning Carrie against her. The district attorney thinks that's exactly what happened. I can understand how you could cause your children to dislike the other parent, but to kill that other parent? That seems like a step too far. I don't think it's causing dislike. That's not what this predilection is. It causes them to absolutely devalue them as people. Case in point, two years before her death, Michelle was backing out of her driveway while Carrie bickered with her

and tried to block her car from leaving. Friends say Lloyd then convinced Carrie that Michelle tried to run her over. Carrie even called police on her mother. And while the charges didn't stick, the idea seemed to. If you can brainwash your daughter into thinking that her inching out of the driveway was your mother trying to run you over, then, well, she tried to kill you,

so it's okay for you to help try to kill her. And when Lloyd later gave Carrie that ultimatum... So basically he was going to kill himself. Or there is this way that he would kill himself which was killing my mom. The DA says Carrie felt she had no choice but to choose her father over her mother. But would the jury believe it?

As Lloyd's trial approached, the DA was determined to paint a picture of Carrie as Lloyd's pawn. But Lloyd had his own plans. Is his defense going to be that she did it? It has to be. How much were you looking forward to trying Lloyd Nyrider for murder? You know, you never look forward to a trial because it means 90 hours of work every week.

This one I wanted to try. I wanted everybody to see who Lloyd was and for Michelle's sake to see what he had done to her. The evidence against Lloyd Nyrider was circumstantial. All the district attorney had was Carrie's word, and the jury might not believe her story. What he needed was physical evidence linking Lloyd to the murder of his ex-wife, Michelle. We took Michelle's clothes.

We had them reexamined by the state police looking for touch DNA. When we got done, what we found was Lloyd's DNA had had contact with Michelle's clothing, the pajamas she was wearing the night she was murdered. Prosecutors gave Lloyd the damning news and a final opportunity to come clean. We made to him an offer I sort of expected he would never, ever accept. He had to plead guilty as charged to first degree murder. He would face a sentence of 25 years to life with the possibility the judge can sentence him

to life without parole. And just two weeks before trial. So what did Lloyd decide to do? He decided to plead guilty. As part of his plea deal, Lloyd had to recount his role in the murder. But when it came time to take personal responsibility... I thought we were going to go bad from minute one because he starts off blaming Michelle. There were no cameras in the courtroom, but Lloyd tells the judge he killed Michelle because he believed she might hurt their children.

That would be Lloyd. Blame everybody else. Blame the victim. But then he sort of said, but that doesn't matter. I have no excuse. Murder is wrong. And he went through and allocated line by line of what he did. In the end, Lloyd fulfilled his end of the plea deal, admitting he planned and carried out the homicide and that he manipulated Carrie into helping him. So what should happen to him? I want him to have life in prison.

Don't want him to ever get out and ever hurt my grandchildren again. He has an evil mind. Michelle's mother Jeannie spent days writing a statement she hopes will persuade the judge to give Lloyd a stiff sentence. She read it to us. Lloyd and I, Ryder, abused and tortured my daughter for 25 years. He coerced his own daughter into helping him kill her mother. Carrie is now in jail, facing the possibility of years in prison.

Lloyd and I, Ryder, should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again. Please, Your Honor, give him life without parole. And that's exactly what the judge would do. And what do you think about what happened today, the outcome? Oh, I'm so overjoyed. I'm so happy. It's life without parole. And Michelle got justice. Thank you.

But there was still the matter of Carrie. And what price should she pay for her mother's death? That's a hard one, isn't it? That's a hard one. I don't believe she should go to prison. I think that she needs psychiatric help. I think she needs a lot of therapy. District Attorney Brooks Baker would agree.

Carrie needed therapy, but he didn't think that would be enough. She has to pay a price. She has to serve a sanction. I think for her own sanity, she needs to serve some penance. Remember, Kerry initially pled guilty to second-degree murder, a charge that could put her in prison for 15 years. But the DA supported a decision, allowing her to now plead guilty to a lesser charge, second-degree manslaughter. Jeannie again wrote to the judge. I always ask myself, what would Michelle want me to do?

I do not believe my daughter, Michelle, would want a long prison sentence for her daughter. She would want her to eventually lead a happy life. And the judge would be lenient, very lenient. Carrie Nyrider was sentenced one to three years in a state prison. It's a huge relief to Jeannie. With time served, Carrie may not be locked up for very long And when Carrie's released Jeannie plans to tell her and her two sisters All about Michelle

And just how much she loved them She knew that she had lost them The two oldest And she wanted them to be happy. And she hoped that someday they would realize what was done and come back to her and see how hard she fought for them to have a good life. She wanted to live a beautiful life, to have a beautiful life, and for them to be happy. And for them to be happy. Shortly after her sentencing in December 2018, Carrie Nyrider went before the parole board.

Her parole application was denied. Carrie will be eligible to apply again in February 2020. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.