48 Hours - Kevin Cooper: Letter from San Quentin

Episode Date: January 27, 2019

Nearly 20 years ago a death row inmate wrote to "48 Hours" that he was framed for the murder of four people. Was evidence planted? New DNA tests could answer that question. Correspondent Erin Moriarty investigates.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. Nearly 20 years ago, I got a stack of letters from an inmate at San Quentin Prison. His name is Kevin Cooper, and he wrote that he had been framed, as he put it, for something that I didn't do, the murder of these four people. Cooper asked us to investigate, and today we're still on the case.

Oh, my God. Still chasing the truth. But first, how we got here. Everybody knows about it. Everywhere I go, there's someone that knows me. That I've never seen in my life, but they know my name. Why do you think they remember you, even after all this time? Because it was brutal.

It was a brutal mass murder that grabbed headlines nationwide. I'd like to take you back to that Saturday before your mom and dad and Chris and Jessica were killed. Responding to 2951 English Road, 2951 English Road. Here is 4-D-O-A. Is the subject still alive? It was very, very bloody in there. Horrible beyond belief.

Whenever I look at the photographs, I still get a tear in my eye. On June 4, 1983, the Ryan family was at home, in bed. Mr. and Mrs. Ryan were sleeping in the master bedroom. Joshua Ryan had a buddy by the name of Christopher Hughes that was visiting him. Jessica Ryan, his sister, was there too. Someone entered through the patio door there and violently attacked him. How did you know something was wrong that night? A scream. Do you remember whose scream? No, I think it was my mom's. He then heard his little buddy, Christopher Hughes, yelling for help. Help Josh, help Josh. My throat was slashed here and I got stabbed here

and hit by an axe here. I think it's a screwdriver that they said. Puncture in my back, my lung, broke three ribs. You're a miracle you know that. Yeah. Have you tried to forget what happened that night? Yeah. What have you done to try and forget it? Hey, Kathy, what's up? Hey, Graham. Oh, hi, Josh. How you doing? I have my grandma. Okay, hi, sweetie. She's been everybody to me, my whole family. I often look at these pictures and just relive memories.

It's been all we have now is memories. It's easy to tell somebody else, oh no, it'll be alright. But it's not their family that was stabbed. It was a massacre. That's what was stabbed. It was a massacre. That's what it was. It was a massacre. Today, at St. Paul's Lutheran Church, more than 500 mourners said goodbye. The pressure on the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department was huge. How can anybody do this?

It shocked everybody beyond belief. What made it even worse is a prison escapee was wanted in connection to that murder. You have a sensational crime and also a case tainted with racism. The authorities then arrested and sentenced to death a young black man named Kevin Cooper for the crime. He's sent by central casting. He looks the part that people had in their minds

for a ruthless killer, but I think they got the wrong guy. I want the truth. I'll keep yelling it from the tops. I want the truth. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bolder risk-takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time,

only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party.

So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror.

But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. In 1983, on this ranch surrounded by beautiful rolling hills, a savage massacre took place. The Bryans and neighborhood boy Christopher Hughes were found hacked and stabbed to death. I can't talk about it. They just couldn't have been more beautiful. It's a very affluent community. There's a lot of ranches up there, a lot of horse owners. This is upper middle class, virtually crime free. It shook the community. It shocked law enforcement as well.

Back in 1983, Paul Ingalls was a detective in a neighboring county. We're talking about four people brutally murdered in one room, and coming across that, it was just astonishing for the deputies that arrived there. Would you say it's among the most brutal cases you've ever had to deal with? On a scale of 1 to 10, it was a 10. At the time, Floyd Tidwell was sheriff of San Bernardino County. It seemed to be a frenzy involved in the killing. It gave you that impression by the amount of activity that took place there. It made you think that there had to be more than one person to do all of this.

Then we got information three men had been seen at the house that day. We thought maybe that was the answer to it. As bloody as the crime scene was, in 1983, forensic testing was limited and there was little evidence left behind. Nothing was taken from the Ryan home except the family's station wagon. A lot of people were going out and buying guns in the community. People were scared to death. With good reason. It was hard enough to understand why Doug and Peggy Ryan

would be so viciously butchered, but who would slash and kill children? Ten-year-old daughter Jessica Ryan and 11-year-old neighbor Chris Hughes, who was spending the night. Eight-and-a-half-year-old Josh Ryan, the only survivor, was barely alive when he was rushed to the hospital. How would you describe that time for you and Josh? It was horrible. Very horrible.

His maternal grandmother, Mary Howellell told us back in 2000 that she never left his side. His head was all bandaged and the little kid couldn't talk but he wrote on the paper how's mom and dad and I had to tell Josh that mom and dad and Jessica are dead so he just cried and says why didn't I die too I want to be with him. And what did you say to him? Well, I just felt like a thousand knives were cutting through me. It wasn't easy, but I just had to be up for Josh.

If I'd break down too, that wouldn't be good for Josh. But once she was alone, Mary says, the tears never stopped. I cried from the minute I left the hospital till I got home. Cried all night, cried all next day, all the way to work. I did that for a year. This was going to be their Christmas card. Mary's daughter Peggy and son-in-law Doug had followed her into the family business. They were all chiropractors.

And like Mary, the Ryans also raised Arabian horses. Peggy loved horses. So did Jessica. That was Jessica's colt. They look like really happy children. They were very happy children. Very happy. Their mother saw to it that they were.

After the murders, Mary took over raising her grandson, Josh. He was 28 when I interviewed him. Do you think about your family? Yes, probably every day. There's something that reminds me of my sister, my mom, and my dad, or my friend Chris. sister, my mom, and my dad, my friend Chris. While Josh and his grandmother mourned the senseless deaths, the search for the killers was on, multiple killers. The original word that we got, that they thought it was three white, possibly Hispanic people,

that was the first word that we got. Deputy Sheriff Dale Sharp, who had rushed to the hospital, was one of the first to question Josh. How did you communicate with Josh if he couldn't talk? I took his hand like this and I said, Josh, I'm going to ask you some questions. If the answer is yes, then you squeeze my hand, and if it's no, then don't squeeze my hand.

In spite of his severe injuries, Josh tried to answer Sharpe's questions about the attack. When we got to the point of asking him how many people were there, I went, one, two, three, and he squeezed my hand. Three people when things went crazy. Right. Josh had also indicated the attackers were white or Hispanic.

But just days after the murders, police got a break, which changed their focus. Down the hill from the Ryans' ranch was a vacant house. Deputies searched it and found evidence that somebody had been hiding out there and had taken off the night of the murders. The intruder turned out to be a convicted burglar named Kevin Cooper, who had escaped from a nearby minimum security prison. They started putting two and two together and identified him as the suspect. Investigators concluded that Josh then was simply confused about seeing three people. And in June 1983, they launched a massive manhunt to capture cooper i wanted to

be the one to find him i wanted to get this guy paul ingalls joined others in law enforcement hunting cooper down when you're hunting somebody if i'd have seen him i would have told him to freeze if he would have ran i would have him. Almost two months after the murders, Cooper was caught and arrested in Santa Barbara. When Kevin Cooper was arrested, did you have any question that he was, in fact, the person who killed the Ryan family? Everybody believed that he was the one who had done it. After all, who's going to believe that a prison escapee, hiding out in a house just 125 yards from the victim's home and who took off the very night the family was slaughtered was innocent. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal.

There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse

and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all.

I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases. And this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals.

Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad free right now. In San Bernardino County, police and prosecutors were convinced they had the killer behind bars. This is a very cold-blooded individual. If he had to kill to escape, he would. If he had to kill to escape, he would. And according to District Attorney Dennis Kottmeyer, that's the reason Kevin Cooper murdered the Ryans and Christopher Hughes. The prison escapee desperately needed money and transportation out of the area. Days after the murders, the Ryans' car was discovered almost 50 miles away, in this Long Beach parking lot.

Police eagerly searched the car for clues. At a later search, they found two cigarette butts. It's tobacco that's typically issued to inmates. That's pretty damning. That points to Kevin Cooper again. But there were also troubling clues inside the vehicle. There was blood found in the car, oddly, on three of the seats. And none of Cooper's fingerprints were found, not in the car and nowhere inside the Ryan home.

We have evidence in our possession that places Kevin Cooper at the crime scene. What Sheriff Tidwell says investigators did find inside the Ryan home were shoe prints that match the kind of shoes worn by prison inmates. We have some bloodstains in the house. stains in the house in the hallway away from the gory crime scene one single tiny drop of blood that a state expert said matched cooper's blood type down the road from the ryan home they located one of the murder weapons a hatchet that investigators believe came from the house where cooper was hiding out and where a sheath was also recovered the evidence is strong and both the d.a and sheriff say kevin cooper seemed to fit the bill we started looking at his background found out that he was wanted in pennsylvania they discovered

that cooper grew up in pittsburgh and spent years in and out of juvenile detention centers and jails. Kevin Cooper is a burglar by trade. Back then, Paul Ingalls was a police detective. He breaks into houses, he steals things, he takes things. And he was good at breaking out of prison when he got caught. There was also an accusation of rape, but Cooper strongly denies it and was never charged. He moved to California and shortly afterward the determined thief was arrested again, but less than 24 hours after being moved to the minimum

security section of the men's prison in Chino, he escaped, hiding out in that vacant house near the Ryan home. The circumstantial evidence is stronger than any I can ever recall. Everybody believed that he was the one who had done it. And when Cooper was finally arrested, he was paraded before the cameras, adding to the racially charged atmosphere surrounding this case. This is the old courthouse, and this was hanging from the light pole in front of it.

This is the kind of thing that was happening at the time. This is the first day of the preliminary hearing. Cooper's trial had to be moved more than 100 miles to San Diego. We're seeking the death penalty, which we have on the wall. Dennis Kottmeyer prosecuted Cooper. Case of the people of the state of California versus Kevin Cooper.

Josh Ryan, now 10, didn't testify. This is Sunday, December 9th. Instead, Kottmeyer showed jurors this video of Josh with his grandmother by his side. He is always ready to tell the truth. Answering questions a year and a half after the murders. Did you ever see anybody in the house that didn't belong there? You can't really tell at night because it could be anyone. It could be my mom or something.

What did you see? I don't really like saw could be my mom or something. What did you see? I don't really like to see. I thought the shadow or something. Josh no longer remembered seeing three white or Hispanic attackers, only a shadow. How many shadows did you see? Just one. Just the one? Kottmeyer, convinced Cooper was the killer, believed Josh was mistaken when he was first questioned — that instead the three men he described had actually come to the ranch

earlier that same day, looking for work. Why didn't you ask him directly, did you see who killed your family? Because I didn't want him to ever feel that the conviction rested on his shoulders. Because we had such a strong case, we didn't need to put that burden on him, and I refused to do it. Thank you very much, Josh. Cooper always denied killing the Ryan family and Christopher Hughes, or ever being inside the Ryan home. He even took the stand in his own defense. The big question is, was there sufficient evidence to illustrate the guilt of Kevin Cooper? And the answer to that is yes. After deliberating for almost two weeks,

the jury convicted him. Guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree. Cooper was sentenced to death. And do you believe that the right defendant was convicted in this case, Kevin Cooper? Absolutely. You have any doubts at all? None. But from the beginning, Mary Howell has always had doubts.

From the beginning, Mary Howell has always had doubts. I still can't believe that one person could do all that to my family. There's five of them, and I just know that they didn't stand in line saying I'm next. She's not convinced that Kevin Cooper did it. Typically, victim or victim's family, they don't have doubts. And typically, cops who hunt down murder suspects don't either. But in 2000, Paul Ingalls, now a private investigator, was working pro bono on Cooper's case. Trying to find out what the truth of the matter is.

And that's how this odd couple... Dr. Mary, how you doing? ...who should be on opposite sides, found themselves working for the same goal. He's like me. Whatever it takes, let's find the truth. We're close friends. I love her dearly.

We're not asking to let the guy go. We're just trying to get the truth. If the government doesn't want to get to the truth, then we all have a problem. By 2000, 17 years had passed since the Chino Hills massacre. Kevin Cooper was awaiting execution in California's San Quentin Prison. But private investigator Paul Ingalls and Mary Howell still had questions about what happened that horrific night. Why was my family murdered?

You know? Why? And who did it? It didn't make sense that Cooper, a prison escapee who needed money and a vehicle to get out of the area, would kill anyone. He's a burglar by trade. When he goes into a house, regardless of what happens,

he's going to burglarize the house. The Ryan station wagon had been parked in the driveway with the keys inside, and cash was left on the counter. If indeed Kevin Cooper did this murder, why didn't he do the burglary? He left the money there? Doesn't make sense. Why would Cooper take the car only to ditch it some 50 miles out of his way when he was headed south to Mexico.

Everybody agrees, prosecution, defense, everybody. He's in Mexico the day after the murders. And if Cooper did the murders alone, why was that blood found on three different seats in the car? But it's just hard for me to believe that one person did all that. One of the reasons Dr. Mary really believes that there was more than one assailant, she will describe her daughter Peggy as a fighter. She was strong. She was a fighter. And Peggy's husband, Doug, was no pushover either.

About 6 foot, about 180 maybe. He was strong. He was an MP in the Marines. What's more, Doug and Peggy owned guns and kept them close by. Now here's some of the guns that were found. There was a gun right over here in this bureau that they did not get to. But more troubling to Ingalls, the lethal wounds appear to have been caused by at least three weapons. Trial Exhibit 42, this is the hatchet that was found at the crime scene. The hatchet, which was discovered along this road

near the Ryans' house, never found, were a knife and an ice pick or screwdriver that were said to have been used. So how did this one man butcher so many people using three different weapons? He's got two hands. I guess you're saying he was wearing like a utility belt of murder weapons when he entered the residence. Prosecutor Dennis Kottmeyer's explanation? He's ambidextrous. He could use either hand equally well.

That's really a great philosophy, except for one little fact. There was three weapons, and I don't care how amb am by dexterity are you can't hold three. Which means Cooper would have to be very skillful and canny. His fingerprints weren't found and the only physical evidence that tied him to the crime scene was that tiny single drop of blood, so small it's not even visible in this evidence photo, found down the hall from where the attacks took place. You can see it here on a paint chip. It's called A-41, one drop all by itself, just sitting there.

It was an unusual place to find it, and that's why it's problematic. If you get cut, you don't drop one drop of blood. Everybody knows that. Investigators also didn't find any of Cooper's hair in the house, so Ingalls wondered whose hair was clutched in 10-year-old Jessica's right hand. She has several strands of long, blonde hair. As for the shoe prints found in the Ryan home,

it turns out the prison-issued sneakers were also sold retail. But the biggest problem, Ingalls says, may be the crime scene investigation itself. It was bungled from the very beginning. Evidence was contaminated when the sheriff's department allowed more than 70

people to walk through the Ryan house. That's unheard of. That's police 101. Making matters worse, within 48 hours of the massacre, D.A. Dennis Kottmeyer ordered the crime scene dismantled. The evidence was stored in a warehouse that wasn't air-conditioned. The result was the evidence was basically lost. Norman Heil, one of Kevin Cooper's defense attorneys, blames that decision for creating problems that have stymied this case for so many years. There could have been analysis of blood spatter, of the bodies, how many people were the attackers, what weapons were wielded by which of them.

That was prevented by them dismantling the crime scene. So questions linger, particularly about the number of attackers. While the only survivor initially told investigators there were three assailants, by trial, his memory had changed. How many shadows did you see? Just one.

Just the one? Still, Josh Ryan could not identify that shadow. And back in 1983, while Josh was still in the hospital, Cooper's picture was broadcast on the news. We were in a hospital. When Cooper's picture came on, I said, Josh, do you recognize that man? And he said no. And we went home, went to bed.

And when I interviewed Josh years later, I asked him about what he had seen. I had like a shadow of a big afro, which my mom also had big hair. And you don't remember the face that went with it? Mm-mm. Could it have been Cooper? I couldn't say that he was there. Yet on June 4, 1983, the day of the murders, Kevin Cooper didn't wear an afro.

His hair had been tightly braided. I wish I could remember. It just won't come back to me, though. I just wish I had more answers. And so did Paul Ingalls. Fifteen years after Kevin Cooper was sent to death row, the private investigator was convinced Cooper's case deserved another look.

There's a lot of evidence that says that perhaps he didn't do it. Like this tan Fruit of the Loom t-shirt. This here is a photograph of the t-shirt. Found down the road from the Ryans' home. These little circles indicate where blood was found on there. Ingalls believes that t-shirt was worn by the killer. It was spattered with blood, some spots consistent with Doug Ryan's blood type.

Nothing connected it to Cooper. If it wasn't Kevin Cooper, then what you're saying is that person could still be out there. It could be. Or those persons. Could be. And is that a concern of yours? Yes.

But Mary Howell is prepared. Do you still have a gun? I'm a shotgun, yeah. It would make a big hole in a person. Shortly after the Ryans and Christopher Hughes were killed in Chino Hills, another possible suspect emerged, an ex-con named Lee Furrow. He was dismissed by authorities, but he had caught the interest of private investigator Paul Ingalls. There's one person you're looking at. Right, he's in Pennsylvania. This picture was taken late 1982 or early 1983, about the time this crime occurred. In 2000, Ingalls was keeping an

eye on him. That's him. For Mary Howell and her grandson Josh, the only surviving witness. Don't, don't change lanes. Don't do it. Get out of the way, son of a. We're going to a friggin' market. Why do you keep an eye on him? So that I know that he can't get to Josh.

I want to make sure that he's not back in California. Furrow came to Engel's attention through police reports and this woman. Are you taking a risk by doing this? Oh, yeah. Diana Roper, Furrow's ex-girlfriend. Diana Roper is quite a character. Tough broad. Supreme white power.

She's a racist. She's certainly not doing this because she wants to help Kevin Cooper. I mean, there's just no question about that. She doesn't think that an innocent man should die. The people I was around with told me just to keep my mouth shut. Why? Why did they? I don't know. Because they said it was better a black man hanging than a white man. I don't care what color he is. He didn't do it. Diana Roper believed that it was Lee Furrow who killed the Ryans, as she told me back in 2000.

There's no doubt in my mind. That's because she knows he's killed before. He's just an evil, evil person. If you look at him, you look in his eyes, you can see it. If you look at him, you look in his eyes, you can see it. Furrow strangled 17-year-old Mary Sue Kitts in a targeted execution back in 1974. Retaliation for talking about a burglary. He told me that he threw her into the Kern River.

He bragged about it. Her body has never been found. But Furrow admitted to the murder and copped a plea by testifying against this man, Clarence Ray Allen, who ordered the hit. It was while Furrow was in prison that he met Diana Roper, who was visiting another inmate. And this is a guy you started to date? Yeah. Yeah. At the time of the Chino Hills murders, Furrow was on parole and living with Diana Roper. It was a life of sex and drugs. His rage, he had no control over it.

He was just, he had no control. It was what happened in the early morning hours of June 5, 1983, the morning after the Ryans were killed, that would forever link her to Kevin Cooper's case. It was like early, early morning. A car pulled up. Diana recalled Furrow coming into the house. I mean, when they came through the door, you could feel something just eerie, real horrible.

She remembers he was wearing dark coveralls. He went into the room, into the closet, and he dropped the coveralls. Two days later, she was in her closet. And I looked down, and here was these coveralls, and I picked them up. And as I picked them up, the more I picked them up, then I saw the blood. And there's more. It's not what he left in. I laid his clothes out for him.

Remember that t-shirt found near the crime scene that Ingalls believes was worn by the killer? Diana says Lee Furrow was wearing one like it the day of the murders. It was like a beige, light brown colored beige. And that hatchet police said came from the house where Cooper was hiding out? Diana said Furrow also had one. He kept all of his tools on the back porch hanging on nails. And as soon as they said I walked back there in his hatchet, it was the only thing missing. She called the sheriff's office about her suspicions. I remember two cars came out. I tried to tell them, hey, this has to do with the Chino murder.

They thought I was on drugs or crazy. God is my witness. I was clean. I was not on drugs. I know what I saw. She gave deputies the bloody coveralls she found. And they took them, they laid them over on the car, on the police car. The deputies took the coveralls and wrote up a report, but it never went any further. And the evidence was never sent to a lab for testing. Instead, six months later, one of the deputies tossed out the coveralls. What was your reaction when you found out that the coveralls had been destroyed? Oh, man. I cannot believe they destroyed such an important piece of evidence.

Back in 2000, we asked Floyd Tibwell, the San Bernardino sheriff at the time of the murders, how this could have happened. But wouldn't you say that taking in coveralls that appear to be covered with blood, not sending them to lab, not having them tested, and throwing them away before trial would be highly unusual? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know that that happened. That did happen.

In fact, this disposition report shows the coveralls were destroyed and described as having no value, discarded with the approval of the deputy supervisor. But doesn't that concern you that maybe not all the evidence was available at Kevin Cooper's trial? I can't be concerned unless I know about it. But it was something that happened when you were sheriff. It was your sheriff's department. Hey, let's bring this to a screaming halt right here.

Okay? That's enough of that crap. And there's other evidence that points to more than one killer. These women, Mary Wolf and Christine Sloanacker, reported that on the night of the murder, they were at the Canyon Corral bar just down the road from the Ryans' house when three guys came in. These fellas came in the back door, and they were kind of falling all over each other. They were Caucasian? Mm-hmm. They came over to where the women were sitting.

One was wearing coveralls. I realized at that time that he was just covered in blood, spattered in blood. It was spotted. He had a light-colored shirt on, so it was, you know, it showed. It really, I mean, it showed up. It was, even though the bar was real dark, you could still see it. He blamed it on a bloody nose,

but Christine, trained to draw blood samples, didn't buy his story. And being a licensed phlebotomist, you don't lose that much blood in a nosebleed. When you first heard that the Ryans had been murdered, what was your first thought? The guys in the bar. The jurors at Kevin Cooper's trial were told about Diana Roper and the missing coveralls. But they never got to hear about the three men at the bar because Christine and Mary didn't come forward until long after Kevin Cooper was sentenced to death.

And when they did, others at the bar had conflicting accounts. I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but I just feel really uncomfortable and uneasy about it. It just leaves reasonable doubt, that's all. Needless to say, if we had those coveralls, they could have tested them. What if some of the blood on the coveralls would have been closely matched to that of one of the victims? Unfortunately, because the Sheriff's Department destroyed those coveralls, we can never do that.

Why would the Sheriff's Department try to protect a guy like Lee Furrow? He's a bad guy. He's a killer. They're not trying to protect Lee Furrow. Let's make sure we understand what's going on here. They've got their man, and they don't want anything to screw that up. They're not about to let somebody come in and muddy the water and screw up a conviction. That's not going to happen.

So we decided to ask Lee Furrow about the Ryan murders ourselves. Do you think Lee Furrow's gonna want to talk to me? I think the chances are slim and none, and Slim's out of town. Well, we're heading out to Lee Furrow is a sociopath. Without any hesitation. Oh, absolutely. We're getting real close, guys.

Back in 2000. We got him. 48 Hours hired Paul Ingalls to lead us to lee furrow that's him and surprisingly furrow agreed to an interview here i am and i'm willing to talk to anybody so we asked him about diana roper turning in those bloody coveralls i I have nothing but the coveralls. I wear Levi's and T-shirts and stuff like that. I don't wear coveralls. Why should I believe you and not Diana?

Because I'm a good person. You're a good person? Yes, I am. Yes. I've made mistakes in the past, and I pay for my mistakes. You consider killing just a mistake? Yeah, it was a mistake. You killed a young woman at someone else's behest?

Yes. Yes, I did. According to testimony in the court, you strangled her. No. Is that correct? Yes. And then how was she disposed of? Dumped in the river. But that was all he was admitting.

Can I ask you point blank? did you kill the Ryan family? No, I did not. Or Christopher Hughes? No, I did not. I had nothing to do with any of this. Furrow says he was at a concert. It's the same thing he told authorities when they interviewed him a year after the Chino Hills murders. Evidently, they found no validity in the story and released me. The police did a very milquetoast interview of Lee Furrow.

It's a horrible interview. Ingalls says the interview lasted just 22 minutes. Why didn't they ask the tough questions? They really didn't probe it because they had their guy in Kevin Cooper. But Furrow insists he told Sam Bernardino deputies the truth. I went down voluntarily, took a lie detector test, the whole thing. You took a lie detector test? Yes, I did take the lie detector test.

That's not true, says Paul Ingalls. He lied. Why did he lie? Good question. But according to Dennis Kottmeyer, it's irrelevant. The big question is, was there sufficient evidence to illustrate the guilt of Kevin Cooper? And the answer to that is yes. But was there any evidence found at the scene that could be tied to Lee Furrow?

I don't know. It was never checked. I'll guarantee you this. If they didn't have anyone in custody, they would have probed that a lot more. And I also bet you that the coveralls would not have been thrown away. Which takes us back to Diana Rober. Furrow thinks she contacted the sheriff's department out of spite. It was just a girlfriend being mad because I was dating another girl in town. Yeah. And it was just completely absurd. How do I know you're not just setting up Lee Furrow? Because, I mean, he ran off with your best friend.

We both were sleeping with her, so what does it matter? You know, I mean, it was no big deal. I gave him to her. Do I know for sure he's involved? Of course not. Do I know for sure Kevin Cooper is innocent? Of course not. But there's all these questions lingering. If you want the answer, it's real easy. Do the DNA testing, and we'll get closure for everybody. DNA testing wasn't available when the murders occurred in 1983.

But in 2000, California passed a law allowing inmates to ask for post-conviction testing. Kevin Cooper hoped to be the first death row inmate to use it. Everybody knows that I want to know the truth. Mary Howell, Paul Ingalls, and Diana Roper wanted the same thing. And they hoped the state would test some of the most significant pieces of evidence,

especially the tan T-shirt. I think it should be done. You could just let this go. I can't. How can I let it go? That young boy, I can't even imagine what he lives with every day. It's just not right.

It turned out Josh Ryan also supported DNA testing. I want to know if he really did it. With no clear memory of the massacre, also supported DNA testing. I want to know if he really did it. With no clear memory of the massacre, Josh told us he had grown up wondering if the wrong man had been punished for the crime. I couldn't live with myself knowing that, well, there could have been a chance that he didn't do it. That's not right.

In 2001, the state agreed to test some of the evidence for DNA. That blood stain paint chip known as A41. Saliva on those cigarette butts. The hairs found in Jessica's right hand and some of the blood stains on that t-shirt. By then, Kevin Cooper had been on death row for 16 years. Everyone was anxiously waiting for the results. We need the DNA testing to prove something. Then we'll go from there. I think it's great. It clears their name or it points the finger at them.

The testing was completed in July 2002, and Kevin Cooper says he couldn't believe it. The paint chip and the two cigarette butts all tested positive for his DNA. The tan t-shirt that had never been connected to Cooper suddenly was. Cooper's attorney Norman Heil. He was shocked. He was absolutely certain that foul play had occurred. Cooper immediately claimed that tested evidence had to have been tampered with or planted by authorities. As for the hairs in Jessica's hand,

there wasn't enough DNA to test. But Cooper's fate was sealed. He was on track to be executed. Does that make you feel confident that Kevin Cooper was definitely involved in this? Yeah, it's pointing at him. While Josh Ryan expressed relief, his grandmother, Mary Howell, remembering what Josh had originally told investigators, still had her doubts. I just cannot see one man doing all that that he did and handle three instruments. I'm still not convinced that this is the whole truth. And she may be right.

Kevin Cooper may not have been the killer at all. Up next... I want to know the truth. I want to know why my family was murdered. In 2002, authorities said this blood drop from the crime scene and this tan T-shirt tested positive for Kevin Cooper's DNA.

But Cooper and his attorney claim the evidence was planted. When Kevin Cooper was arrested, they took two vials of blood from him, and that's the blood that they could have used. Cooper's attorney points the finger at this man. We have the person who we think killed the Ryans. I have nothing to do with this. Can brand new DNA tests close this case? Is it really likely that you would be able to find out

the wear of this t-shirt 35 years after a crime? Those tests can be very reliable. So are these DNA tests a matter of life or death? They are for Mr. Cooper, for sure. Any further test is not going to take away the evidence that we have that Kevin Cooper committed these murders. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app.

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