48 Hours - Murder in Beverly Hills

Episode Date: February 12, 2017

Who killed a Las Vegas mob boss's daughter?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. Real people, real crimes, real life drama. Real people, real crimes, real life drama. It's a crazy case that always seems to get crazier.

I'm Jack Leonard. I work for the Los Angeles Times. She's just in her home. Somebody comes in, shoots her in the back of the head. My name is Paul Coulter, and I was one of the detectives assigned the Susan Berman murder investigation. We were next-door neighbors for nearly two years. I saw the name Susan Berman, and my heart stopped. Susan was a media personality, never boring. In a weird way, maybe that's why I became a journalist,

because there was always a story that I knew someday I would have to get, and it's my own. If you killed Susan, would you tell me? No. The defendant is a multimillionaire. The defendant is a multimillionaire. Robert Durst has been suspected in three killings over the last 35 years. It's about power and money. You pay a million and a half dollars, create theater in a courtroom,

and everybody's like, poor Bob. I mean, it is the theater of the absurd. Bob, what's going to happen is you're going to be charged with murder. There's no fingerprints. There's no blood evidence. There's no ballistic evidence. There's nothing that connects him to the actual murder of Susan Berman. I'm Dick DeGaran, and I'm lead counsel for Bob Durst. This is going to be a huge case.

Money, power, murder. I think, Bob, that you drove down to Los Angeles and killed Susan. I did hold back. The prosecution is saying he's a menace to society. He might still be able to kill some of these witnesses. He's so dangerous that their identity needs to be kept secret from the defense until right up to when they're about to testify. This is the kind of thing that happens you would expect in a mob case or a terrorism case.

I believe he's innocent. Innocent of Susan Berman's murder? Yes. You're sure of that? I'm as sure as I'm sitting here. I'm Erin Moriarty. Tonight on 48 Hours. Murder in Beverly Hills.

Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X.

In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defence attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories

of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans,

discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party. So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+. It's just The Best Idea Yet.

I do want to say here and now, though, I am not guilty. I did not kill Susan Berman. That scratchy voice is unmistakable. It belongs to multimillionaire Robert Durst, suspected in the disappearance of his first wife, Kathy, connected to the death of a neighbor, Morris Black. Durst will soon go on trial in Los Angeles for the murder of Susan Berman. I think, Bob, that you drove down to Los Angeles. Killed Susan. I do.

Back. You drove down to Los Angeles. Killed Susan. I did. We're back. Tonight, Durst sits in a jail cell serving time on a federal gun charge with even bigger problems on the horizon. As the murder case against him begins to take shape, there is new evidence that ironically comes from the defendant himself in a conversation with the same Los Angeles deputy DA who will face him in court. I know that when you killed Susan, that was not something you wanted to do.

Evidence like this interview is rarely made public before a trial. I'm going to stay away from killing Susan. Next week in Los Angeles, pretrial proceedings begin. Expect secret witnesses and a battle hard fought by some of the best lawyers in the country. One side trying to put Durst away for life, the other trying to save him. But it is a complicated story. So it helps to go back to the beginning. Here in New York City, there's rich and then there's really rich. The Durst family is in that category. They control a billion dollar real estate empire crowned by the New World Trade Center. Robert Durst is the black sheep son of the man who built that empire. Bobby, did you kill Kathy 20 years ago?

And at 73, he's become a bonafide true crime celebrity. A lot of that celebrity was powered by an HBO documentary called The Jinx. In it, a mumbling Robert Durst appeared to have made a dramatic confession. Was he actually admitting to multiple murders? Killed them all. Of course. A few years earlier, there was a Hollywood movie about him,

a thinly disguised crime biography called All Good Things things starring Ryan Gosling and Kirsten Dunst you're gonna be late the true story behind the movie begins back in April of 1973 Bobby Durst had just married the love of his life Kathy he was heir to that real estate fortune. She was a dental hygienist. There were no two ways about it. We were in love. Bob's world-class fortune could buy just about anything. Nights at famous discos like Studio 54, star-studded parties, and exotic travel. Kathy's brother Jim McCormick. They went to Europe, they went to South America, they went to Bangkok.

I mean, in the 1970s, wow. Kathy had also started a new career, med school. But soon, the marriage began to run off the rails. Robert Durst himself says they both started having affairs. And Durst also had violent tendencies. The one time I saw physical violence was when he was impatient to leave my mom's house in New Hyde Park. He came in, asked her to leave. She didn't jump up. He turned around and walked over and grabbed her by the hair and pretty much yanked her off the couch.

He grabbed her by the hair? By the hair and just kind of pulled her. In retrospect, I wish I had reacted and ripped his face off. More and more, Robert Durst found himself turning to another woman, someone he trusted deeply. It was an old college friend turned magazine writer named Susan Berman. Susan had a very colorful childhood. Susan was raised like Eloise at the Plaza,

only it was by the gangsters in Las Vegas. I'm Stephen Silverman. I first met Susan Berman in 1975 when I was a brand new magazine editor in Los Angeles. My father, Davy Berman, worked for Meyer Lansky and Frank Costello. These were men who had one skill, gambling, and Nevada was the only place it was legal and holy. In 1999, the year before her death, Susan Berman spoke about her life. All the celebrities would come, Liberace, Elvis Presley, Rosemarie, Jimmy Durante, the Andrews sisters. Whoever was in town was always our guest. But Susan experienced some of the hard edges of mob life growing up. In the mob parlance, there's a word for having your parents die suddenly and tragically by murder, and that is they died an unfortunate death.

Many of my friends do have parents that died unfortunate deaths. Author Lisa DiPaolo. For Susan's entire life, it was Bobby, Bobby, Wonderful Bobby. Susan Berman and Robert Durst met at UCLA when they were both students, and there was an instant connection. They became best friends. They both had these two larger-than-life fathers and two mentally ill mothers Bobby Durst's mother killed herself by jumping off the

roof of their house in Scarsdale Susan Berman's mother as the story goes killed herself in a mental hospital so when things got tough in Durst's life, he turned to her. Susan was my best friend. Susan Berman would become an important figure in this story. In January of 1982, Durst's wife, Kathy, suddenly disappeared. Her friends say the couple had a fight at their suburban New York weekend house. But Durst tells a very different story. He says he dropped Kathy off to catch a train back to New York City, and that's the last time he ever saw her. Four days after she disappeared, Durst

called the New York City police to report her missing. But that was before he called her friends or family to ask where she was. When questioned by Los Angeles D.A. Lewin, his answer seemed strange. How come you didn't call them first before you called the police? I was not looking forward to talking to them at all. How did you find out that Kathy was missing? February 4th, maybe 8 or 9 o'clock at night, the phone rings. Jim, this is Bob. You know, that raspy kind of voice. I said, yeah, Bob, what's up? He goes, have you seen Kathy?

And I said, no. Did he sound worried? No, he just, it was almost casual and almost rushed to get the phone call over with. Back in New York, local media picked up on the story of the real estate millionaire's missing wife. Robert Durst turned to his confidant, Susan Berman. She became his spokesperson when the media started calling and asking him questions about his wife's disappearance. In spite of efforts by police, Kathy's family and friends, investigators never found her.

And the case went nowhere for almost 20 years. It is a cold, cold, cold case. When in 2000, the then Westchester County District Attorney reopens the Kathy Durst investigation. We'll get to the bottom of what happened to Kathleen Durst one way or the other. That fiery new District Attorney was Janine Pirro. I have no reason to believe that she isn't dead and that this wasn't a homicide. Talk to me.

When D.A. Pirro went public with the news she was going to track him down, Durst disappeared. Has Bob Durst been cooperative in this investigation? Absolutely not. We want to talk to Bob Durst. He won't talk to us. Because Durst had vanished, Pirro's investigators started looking for his confidant, Susan Berman. They finally found her in Los Angeles. December 23rd of the year 2000, I remember my investigators coming in and saying,

boss, there's good news and bad news. Susan Berman definitely lives at this address, but she's dead. There's no doubt in my mind. I believe Robert Durst killed Susan Berman. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror.

But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, early and ad-free on Wondery Plus and the Wondery app. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10

that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of us i'm journalist luke jones and for almost two years i've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from pitcairn when there's nobody watching nobody going to report it people will get away with what they can get away with in the pitcairn trials i'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction.

Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. A lot has happened in the 16 years since Robert Durst vanished and Susan Berman's body was discovered. I think you want me to go through details of Susan. I do. I do. In a nearly three hour long conversation without his lawyers present, Durst recently talked to the LA County Deputy DA, John Lewin. Maybe there were two people who killed Susan. One person could go into the house and shoot Susan and the other person could be the driver.

It's like he didn't learn from talking to the jinx how this could put him in trouble. And still, there's Robert Durst talking to the prosecutor. I'm very willing to talk to you. Watch as the deputy DA tries to get on Durst's good side, hoping he'll win his trust and maybe get a confession. Do you know the biggest problem with all good things? get a confession. Do you know the biggest problem with all good things? Ryan Gosling's portrayal of you, the real you, he didn't get. This prosecutor, you can tell he's trying to build a rapport,

and he's really trying to flatter him. You have an incredible sense of humor. I mean, I have a very dry sense of humor. It's a fascinating interview. It's like a cat and mouse game going on. You did not just find Susan's body and somebody else killed her. I did not find Susan's body. Slowly but surely, Lewin pushes Durst to talk about the months leading up to Susan Berman's murder,

after Durst learned authorities were reopening the investigation into his wife's disappearance. What made you run? I really can't say why did I run when I did. In November 2000, Durst picked up and moved to Galveston, Texas, and he took on a new identity. He dressed himself as a woman, a mute woman. Is it fair to call Bob Durst a cross-dresser, or do you think that was simply as a disguise? Simply a disguise. Galveston detective Cody Casalas says Durst rented an apartment in this modest complex under the alias Dorothy Siner. He was so afraid that he picked up and ran off to Galveston dressed like a woman. Now, can you imagine the fear that must have been in his mind?

Longtime close friends of Robert Durst, Emily and Stuart Altman, defended his strange behavior. He really thought Jeanine Perre was trying to make her political life on Bob's back. And he actually believed that an indictment was imminent for something that he didn't do. A month after he went to Galveston in December 2000 and 1,600 miles away in Los Angeles,

homicide detectives were investigating the murder of Durst's best friend, Susan Berman, whose body was found on Christmas Eve. She was driving an old clunker car. She was behind in some of the bills. Paul Coulter, now retired, was a detective with the Los Angeles Police Department. He says the life of the one-time mafia princess now played more like down and out in Beverly Hills.

She was behind in her rent payments. She'd had run-ins with her landlady over the conditions of the residence. She was pretty much living destitute. She was embarrassed by those living conditions. How was she killed? Well, she was shot in the back of the head. One shot? One shot in the back of the head.

To me, you're shooting them in the back of the head so you don't have to face them when you kill them. I mean, that's just it. There was no forced entry to the residence. There was no ransacking to the residence. And it's just the way that the body is laying there, like somebody just left her there and got out of Dodge.

The initial reaction was her father was in the mafia. She was shot in the back of the head. This is like a mafia hit. And I thought the mafia isn't after Susan. Paul Coulter says the way Susan's body was left at the scene tells him she knew her killer. Somebody rolled her over or placed her in that position. Why would you do something like that? Because you care for that person. You're not just leaving them slumped like that. They want her body found so it could be properly taken care of.

And then there was this letter postmarked the day before Berman's body was discovered. And it addressed Beverly Hills Police Department with her address and the word cadaver. And again, to me, that means it's somebody that knows her, cares for her,

doesn't want her laying there decomposing. They want her body found in a timely manner. As part of the investigation, Colter learned that Berman had received two large checks from Robert Durst shortly before her murder. How much money had Durst sent her, and how did you find that out? Well, through her bank records, there was a deposit of a large sum of money. In November, you said you sent her $50,000, correct? Two checks. Yeah, for $25,000.

In his interview with the L.A. County prosecutor, Durst admits he gave Berman the money, but said he was just helping out an old friend. I remember giving her money whenever she asked for it. At that time, Durst was not even a prime suspect. Berman had problems with her landlady and a former manager, and there was that talk that her death might be a mob hit. Chip Lewis is part of Robert Durst's defense team. Susan Berman had cried out soon before her murder

that she was about to expose the mob in really writing something, a tell-all book about what she knew. That's why she was murdered. If you realistically look at it, what would be the motive for the mob to kill her? Plus, all the old mobsters from her dad's era are probably 100 years old or dead. Nine months after Susan Berman's murder, Robert Durst rose to the top of the suspect list when something shocking happened back in Galveston, Texas.

Something that made police in three cities believe that Robert Durst could be a serial killer. Cutting through a bone is not easy with anything. In late 2001, several garbage bags full of human remains washed up on the Gulf Coast of Texas and led police directly to Robert Durst. It was stunning. New York Times reporter Charles Bagley. It was stunning. New York Times reporter Charles Bagley. We get word out of Galveston, Texas,

that Bob Durst has been arrested for murder, for dismembering a neighbor and tossing the body parts into Galveston Bay. I was the one that arrested him. Durst was charged with killing his neighbor, Morris Black. Cody Casalas, Galveston major crimes detective at that time, told me that he had rarely seen a more clear-cut case of murder. He probably walked up behind him and shot him in the back of the head. But Durst said that's not how it happened at all. He claimed that on the night of the shooting,

he arrived home to find Morris Black sitting in his living room with his gun. Good morning. You may all be seated. Durst was charged with first-degree murder. At his trial, he testified that he and Black had an argument. According to this defense animation, it was during a struggle that the gun went off, killing 71-year-old Black accidentally. that the gun went off, killing 71-year-old Black accidentally. But Detective Casalas was unconvinced. There was nothing to suggest self-defense. He never said self-defense until after the defense attorneys got the case. Durst's claim of self-defense was even harder to believe because of what he did after the shooting. Instead of calling 911, he carved up Black's body, shoved the parts into plastic bags, and dumped them into the Galveston

Bay. What kind of person would you say would be capable of cutting up another person's body? Someone he says was a friend of his. A psychopath, someone with no conscience. Casalas believed that Durst used a bow saw like this to cut off Morris Black's arms, legs and head. So by the way, cutting somebody up with a saw is a really difficult thing to do. I agree. In the newly released interview, Durst casually details the dismemberment for John Lewin. Cutting up that body the way I was doing it was the hard way. The proper way is what a surgeon would do with a scalpel,

and he would cut around the ligaments and then do it in the joint, not on the bone. So we're talking about a very bloody process here. Extremely bloody. There was body parts in different bags. There was like a leg in one bag, another leg in another bag. I think he assumed that the tide would take the bags on out to sea, but instead the tide was coming in, and so the bags just stayed right there by the pier.

But Black's head, where he had been shot, was never found, so the police could not determine whether it was an execution or simply an accident, as Durst claimed. According to Durst's lawyers, the reason why he cut up this body was just to try to hide it, that he panicked. He didn't panic. Everything he did was cold and calculating. I have him on videotape four to five hours after the murder, calmly buying a money order to pay Morris Black's rent so that it would appear that Morris Black just paid his October rent and sometime within October moved away. And this guy's in the video just as calm as a cucumber.

He's not a danger to anybody. The public doesn't know what we know. Durst had the best defense team money could buy in Texas, including Dick DeGaran and Mike Ramsey. One of the first things they did was hire well-known Houston psychiatrist Milton Altshuler to help figure Durst out. Do you think Robert Durst is a dangerous man? No, ma'am. Dr. Altshuler says that Durst suffers from a form of autism that at the time was called Asperger's syndrome, a disorder that can limit a person's

ability to interact socially. DR. ALTRULER, Emotion is very difficult to him. DR. RUTH BADER GINSBURG, Are you saying that Robert Durst can't feel any emotion? DR. ALTRULER, He can feel it, but it's very dulled at best to him. RUTH BADER GINSBURG, Dr. Altruler asserts that because Durst can't feel strong emotion,

he can't get angry enough to kill. Some people, though, will listen to you and say, oh, come on. This was just a diagnosis set up for trial to, you know, help get him off the hook of this murder case. I understand that. But his whole life's history is so compatible with the diagnosis of Asperger's disorder. While Dr. Altshuler never testified about his findings, his diagnosis was used at trial. It would have been an explanation for some of the inappropriate, and obviously it was inappropriate, to dismember a corpse behavior that Bob went through. member of corps behavior that Bob went through.

But in that newly released interrogation video, Durst finally reveals his thoughts on that diagnosis. The whole Asperger's thing, I have, so I never thought that amounted anything. That was the psychiatrist coming up with an explanation, and it was never necessary at the trial. We didn't need the psychopathy. Right. Bob, you agree. That was a load of bulls**t by the shrink.

Yeah. Maintain your emotion in the courtroom until you have left. Will the defendant please rise? After a seven-week trial and five days of deliberation in 2003, the verdict shocked everyone, even the defendant himself. Will the jury find the defendant, Robert Durst, not guilty? Not guilty. That was the most emotional three days of my life.

We cried. I broke down a couple of times. The jurors were widely criticized for the acquittal, but say they felt they had no choice. While they knew Durst had cut up Black's body, they weren't convinced he was guilty of premeditated murder. Robert Durst was on the stand himself for three or four days. The prosecution had an opportunity to trip him up and put holes in his story. They couldn't do it. He was on trial for the murder of Morris Black, and there was no evidence to prove that that happened. But Detective Cazalas still believes Durst killed Morris Black

because Black figured out who Durst really was and became a threat. Do you think Bob Durst got away with the murder? There's not a doubt in my mind. There isn't a doubt in my mind. What's the chance that one guy has two people disappear out of his life? There's a possibility. There is a possibility that Robert Durst is the most unlucky man in America. You believe that?

I said there's a possibility. But Durst's lot was about to run out, and he would only have himself to blame. How you doing? Nice to see you again. He agreed to be interviewed for a six-part documentary series about his life and said things that would eventually help him get charged with Susan Berman's murder. Excuse me. Ryan Gosling clearly got something right in his thinlyveiled portrayal of Robert Durst in Andrew Jarecki's All Good Things, a movie that caught the attention of Durst himself. He voluntarily called me around the time that my film was coming out and said,

I've heard about this movie, I'd like to see it. And then he volunteered to come and sit for an interview. When I asked him why he sat for these interviews, he told me that he thought he could say anything he wanted. Charles Bagley, who covers the eccentric multimillionaire for The New York Times, says Durst believed he was immune to prosecution. This was an old case, and no prosecutor would go to the expense of bringing a case against him 33 years after his first wife disappeared and all these many years after Susan was murdered. He was wrong, wasn't he?

He was absolutely wrong. Durst's interview with Jarecki became the foundation for the six-part HBO documentary series The Jinx, The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst. I will be able to tell it my way. But that's not what happened, says Durst's lead attorney, Dick DeGaran. Bob trusted them to do a good job in telling his story, which he wanted to tell, and that trust was misplaced. And I think that they were not truthful with him from the very beginning as to what their intention was. In Jarecki's documentary, Durst seems to incriminate himself, especially when it comes

to evidence like the so-called cadaver note, that anonymous letter sent to police at the time of Susan Berman's murder, telling them there was a body in the house. So, obviously, I want to ask you about the cadaver note the envelope addressed to the Beverly Hills police held an important clue the word Beverly was misspelled well these are audio tapes that were in Berman's stepson gave jinx filmmakers a letter written to susan berman by robert durst and just like the cadaver note the word beverly is misspelled can you read me the spelling of beverly hills in his final interview for the jinx durst was confronted

with both letters and can you tell me which one you didn't write? No. But the most explosive moment in the series wasn't the comparison of the curious letters. It was a controversial piece of audio recorded without Durst's knowledge. While he was in the bathroom, Durst began muttering to himself. There it is. You're caught. Kill them all. Of course. How damaging is that scene in the jinx? It was breathtaking. I was at Andrew Jurecki's apartment for the broadcast of the final episode, and in the room were Kathy Durst's brother and his wife and their daughter. There was a very quiet sobbing through much of that episode.

What was your reaction when you heard that? My first reaction was, what in the world are these guys doing to send somebody into the bathroom? There's not a more private place. And they know that Bob talks to himself. And that's just one of his quirks. When you listened to that, didn't Bob Durst confess to murder? No. How else could you interpret that? Oh, there's a hundred ways of interpreting it. In March 2015, as that final episode of The Jinx was about to air, Durst vanished again,

and officials feared he was on the run. The Jinx is what spurred him into action when they went and arrested him. Do you think that this prosecution would be happening at all without the film The Jinx? I do not. I know that the prosecution team has been working on this for years and years, but why now? Robert Durst was apprehended in a hotel room in New Orleans

and arrested for possession of a gun. And that's when top L.A. prosecutor John Lewin made his bold move, flying to Louisiana to interview Durst in the early morning hours before the defense team arrived. I'm John Lewin. I'm a deputy D.A. Durst tried to raise doubt about his seemingly incriminating statements in the jinx. I was on meth the wholex. I was on meth the whole time. I was on meth.

Personally, I don't believe that. He didn't look like a jumpy guy. He looked like a guy that had smoked a lot of pot and was kind of down, if anything. And Lewin clearly wasn't buying it. You know, I'm going to lay my cards on the table. I don't think you feel that badly about Morris. I don't know how you feel about Kathy. But here's what I do know. I know that when you killed Susan, that was not something you wanted to do. Do you know how I know that?

I'm going to stay away from killing Susan. Lewin's theory of the crime is pretty clear. He believes Susan Berman was killed because she knew too much about Kathy Durst's disappearance. He brings up what Robert Durst had talked about in the jinx that Susan Berman had called him and told him that detectives had wanted to talk to her about Bob Durst's missing wife and that she was planning on talking to them. Susan definitely told me that she'd been contacted by him. I'm going to tell you something. That wasn't true. Lewin then takes Durst by surprise.

They had not contacted her. They were planning on contacting her. Susan lied to you about that. It's like he's stunned for a moment. I think that Susan was trying to subtly squeeze you for money. Lewin also tries to catch Durst off guard with that infamous cadaver letter. You know that the killer left a note, right? I know that.

The cadaver note. Why would you think the killer would have left a note? I'm going to stay away from that. But Lewin continues to push. One of these is the one you wrote to Susan before, and one of them is the cadaver note. Can you tell me which one of these you didn't write? I couldn't begin to.

Yeah, because they look identical, agreed? If not identical, extremely similar. The one real difference? The cadaver letter was written in green ink you like green pen why do you like green pen i liked it it was different people recognize all this bob's handwriting john lewin was very smart to get down there and conduct that interview and get whatever he could out of it. Former Los Angeles County District Attorney Steve Cooley. How damaging is it that Durst admits he loves to write in green ink? About as damaging as it is that when they searched his place down in Houston,

all of his pens were in green ink. Whoever wrote the note was a part of killing her. Yes. You agree, right? Yes. No question, right? Whoever wrote that note had to be involved in Susan's death. If they can connect that letter, and you believe they can, to Robert Durst,

the fact that he's then admitted whoever wrote that letter was part of the killing. Right. That's almost an admission. It's an acknowledgement. And it may explain why Durst does something rather shocking. He appears to be fishing for a deal. If there's something that I could do that would be worthwhile for somebody else and they could do something for me, then there would be a direction.

Bob was astoundingly close to the edge. He had a feeling that maybe he would fess up. Kathy started doing these things to start fights and then go tell her friend, look what he did to me. If she could prove that I'd been beating her up, she would get a bigger salary right that's robert durst talking about the tense days before his wife kathy disappeared 35 years ago maybe she accepted that i was going to be get her divorce but she didn't want me to look like I came away the winner. So she had to get a lot of money. The fact that Durst is telling these intimate details to the same man who will prosecute him for the murder of Susan Berman

infuriates Durst's lead attorney, Dick DeGaran. I was angry. I was angry that the prosecutor had gone in and talked to Bob Durst knowing that he was represented by lawyers and that the lawyers were on their way to talk to him. He'd had no sleep. He'd been up over 24 hours. He'd been suddenly arrested. He was tired.

He was confused. It's going to be a battle royal. And what disturbs DeGaran even more is that the prosecutor recently filed the full video of that conversation, making it public. Making a public filing like that was an effort to hurt Bob in the public's eye. Durst's admissions may be damaging at trial. When you listen to Robert Durst in that interview it sounds like he's pushing for a deal. No. If there's something that I could do that would be worthwhile and they could do something

for me, you'd like some details from me if I knew about where Kathy's body is and about what happened. And you would agree that you're in the position, if you want, to tell me more than you have. I'm not about that. I'm not about to go that far. If I tell you those things, I'm pleading guilty. You're not going to see outside again as a free man. So if I was to accept that, I'm not going to be out of prison. Now the question is, where do I want to spend my time?

I don't control which prison you go to, but I can absolutely make a recommendation. Bob Durst is not pushing for a deal. He's not asking for a deal. He doesn't want a deal. He wants to be found not guilty, as he is. DeGaran predicts this trial will be unlike any other. I can't disparage the prosecution team at all. They're tough. They are good at what they do.

I think I've put together a pretty good team too. It's an all-star legal team that has reportedly already cost Durst $4 million. And he's eager to go to trial. Thank you all for being here. You've got maybe the most formidable legal dream team since the OJ murder case, Dick DeGaran. He's the guy who's wearing a cowboy hat, walking into court. He really is a legend in Texas law. And he's the guy who helped get Robert Durst off his murder case in Galveston. Not guilty. From the West Coast, more high-powered defenders. It's an attack to protect the rights of Mr. Durst. David Chesnoff. He's represented Britney Spears. He's represented Paris Hilton, Mike Tyson.

And a leading L.A. trial attorney, Don Ray. On the other side, top prosecutors. Good morning, Your Honor. Habib Balian. Habib Balian. And John Lewin, the one who convinced Durst to talk, who is also known as the king of cold cases. That man kills witnesses.

That's what he does. This week, the state is bringing in a secret witness to testify. As they move closer to the trial, prosecutors claim that Robert Durst is so dangerous they have to keep the name of this witness under wraps. In the filing, it says defendant has demonstrated a willingness to use deadly force to escape justice and has killed witnesses before. That's their claim. I mean, that's their whole the whole basis of this prosecution. They think that Susan Berman was killed because she was a witness. They think that Morris Black was killed because he was a witness. There's no evidence of that.

But in fact, you saw the jinx. I think a lot of people who saw that and saw Robert Durst's handwriting on letters to Susan Berman, and saw the quote-unquote cadaver letter, thought the handwriting, even Robert Durst says the handwriting looks exactly the same. He can't tell the difference. And can you tell me which one you didn't write? No. That's pretty damaging evidence. I wouldn't agree with that, but I'm not going to get down in the weeds with you

and discuss that evidence. I'm'm not going to get down in the weeds with you and discuss that evidence. I'm just not going to do it. Former Westchester County, New York, prosecutor Janine Pirro. The green ink cinched it for me. Robert Durst only writes in green ink. Green, the color of money that he loved so much. When he was arrested in Galveston, there were green pens, green ink. The, the color of money that he loved so much. When he was arrested in Galveston, there were green pens, green ink. The man loves green. And the cadaver knows green ink? It's in

green ink. Yes, it is. But while some want to see Durst convicted, others just want justice for Susan Berman, a talented writer and larger-than-life personality. I miss her. You need people like Susan in your life. You know, there's so many dull people. Susan was never, never dull. This may be the final chapter in the 35-year-long saga of Robert Durst, and many believe his luck has run out, that he will finally be convicted of murder. His attorney says, don't count on it.

Bob Durst did not kill Susan Berman, and he does not know who did. You know, I've known Bob for over 15 years. known Bob for over 15 years. And I've seen the toll that being under suspicion for what's practically a lifetime can have on a person. Bob was arrested because of a television program. And I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from that yet. Next week, a secret witness in the Susan Berman case will reportedly

offer new testimony. Kathy Durst's family has filed a civil suit against Robert Durst. They're asking for $100 million. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.