48 Hours - Out of Reach - Encore

Episode Date: August 11, 2019

After 30 years, the prime suspect in the brutal murder of an American woman living in South Korea speaks out and maintains she’s innocent. Peter Van Sant investigates.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. We were a bunch of women who came from all over the world to Seoul in 1988 to teach English. Korea was transforming and opening up its doors to the West. The 1988 Olympics really represented South Korea's debut on the world stage. We were helping teach English to Koreans so that they were prepared for the new world

coming into their peninsula. It was an interesting time. It was a interesting time. It was a dangerous time. There was Sandra. She took me under her wing. And we definitely bonded. Kathy Patrick. She was the head teacher, kind of our boss. I was definitely a party girl.

And then there was Carolyn Abel. She was sparkly. She was beautiful, really funny, she had a wicked sense of humor. My sister Carolyn was an adventure. People did notice her. She was vibrant, she attracted people's attention. She had become friends with all of us, but particularly with Kathy.

They were like sisters. Life that year was great. We had so much fun. We worked hard. We played hard. We partied at night. Everything was going so well. All our fun came to a sudden crashing halt when one of us, Carolyn Abel, was murdered. It was absolutely horrible, brutal, violent. There were multiple stab wounds.

I can't even begin to describe what that loss has been, like somebody had detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of the family. So whoever killed Carolyn is still out there. We're at Newark Airport about to head overseas to try to find some answers. What happened to this woman? Carolyn Abel. And where did Carolyn live? Carolyn lived over there. Out in this direction? Out in this direction. I've been asking questions for 30 years.

What happened the night that Carolyn was killed? Everybody loved Carolyn. Who was in the room? Who put the knife in? Why should anybody be able to get away with murdering somebody and never face charges? More than 30 years later, our investigation has brought us here, to a university in Bellingham, Washington, where Carolyn Abel's alleged killer works. We just got word. We're going to make our move now. OK, this is the building.

We were so sure the enemy was on the outside, it never occurred to any of us that the killer was among us. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for

the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party. So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty?

Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created.

She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. For writer and author Nancy Burkhaw, flying to South Korea in the winter of 2018 reopened a painful chapter in her life, one of murder, loss, and fear. Not only were we devastated about the loss of Carolyn, we of course wondered who's next.

Back in Seoul, where should be our first stop? Well, I think we should go to the school, to ELS, where we all taught. ELS is the English Language School. This is the neighborhood. Where Nancy met fellow teacher Carolyn Abel back in 1988. This is the school, and the world was never the same for any of us who are in that building together on December 20th. The events of that day have haunted Carolyn Abel's family for more than 30 years. And the damage that's been done was just so devastating. Wanda Abel remembers her younger sister Carolyn

as the center of attention from an early age. This is our very first passport photo. Carolyn is on the right. This is a passport picture with three people in it? Yeah. She was the youngest and the cutest and the baby of the family. The youngest daughter of professors Dr. Francis

and Evelyn Abel, Carolyn had a love of photography and a wanderlust that took her around the world. My mother said in retrospect it was almost like she knew she didn't have a lot of time. She wanted to do as much as she could in the time she had and not waste a second. By the time she graduated from college, Carolyn had already lived in Pakistan, East Asia, Germany, and France. She would get restless.

She didn't like being just in one place for too long. That restlessness compelled Carolyn to join the Peace Corps after college, serving in Nepal, where she taught English. In 1987, Carolyn took another teaching job in Japan, where she met this man, Tomoyuki Ayagaki, a customs agent. She's always cheerful. Did she make you laugh? Yes. She's funny.

Carolyn and Tomoyuki began a relationship that very quickly became serious. Did you fall in love with Carolyn? Yes. Tomoyuki did propose to Carolyn. And what was her answer, do you know? Carolyn was trying to decide whether she would be happy being married and staying in Japan. While contemplating a future life with Tomoyuki, Carolyn received an offer for another job, 330 miles away and across the Sea of Japan. And in the fall of 1988, Carolyn set out on her next great adventure in life,

teaching English here in Seoul, South Korea. And from the minute she walked into the staff room, she was just breath of fresh air. She sort of looked a little bit like Farrah Fawcett. That's where Carolyn quickly fell in with Nancy Burkhardt and the other American teachers at school, like Sandra Ames, who requested that we alter her current appearance for this interview. She was making her students laugh and sing and have fun learning English.

And Tamara Doak. She made friends with everybody. She was very, very friendly. So this is Kathy. She made friends with everybody. She was very, very friendly. So this is Kathy. Carolyn also hit it off with the head teacher at the school, Kathy Patrick. Carolyn and Kathy Patrick were extremely good friends. They were considered, if I can use a modern term, besties.

The women taught, traveled, and partied together. Expat life in Seoul in the late 80s was wild. And one place where our worlds collided, and that was Itaewon, the red light district. This is where Kathy and Sandra and Carolyn and Tamara and I would come. So what we did is we danced and drank like crazy people. and Tamara and I would come. So what we did is we danced and drank like crazy people. On the weekend of December 17th, 1988, just three days before the murder, Sandra, Kathy, Carolyn, and some Korean students

took a trip into the mountains. Carolyn took these pictures. We spent the time looking at temples and hiking and then partying in the evenings. Classes were winding down for the winter break. Tomoyuki was getting ready to fly to Seoul, hoping to get an answer to his marriage proposal. On Tuesday, December 20th, Carolyn never made it to work.

And a lot of us missed work on occasion for various reasons. I was not at that point concerned, but Kathy was concerned about Carolyn because she couldn't get her on the phone. Kathy was asking all of us, had any of us heard from Carolyn? No. all of us had any of us heard from Carolyn. No. Kathy was very upset, convinced that something had happened to Carolyn. And I said, well, maybe we should go over there.

At that point, some of our students drove us to Carolyn's apartment. We went into the apartment, and Kathy discovered the body. She was murdered brutally and horribly and in a way that she did not deserve. And we were just all in shock, just trying to figure out what happened. I think we all just felt like, what the hell's going to happen now? Are we in danger? How will Sandra and Kathy ever recover from the shock of seeing their dead friend?

Where do we go from here? As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder,

wherever you get your podcasts. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have heard it.

It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction.

Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. The The The The The The The The The The The The

The The The Carolyn's apartment was on the 15th floor. So here we are. I'm Peter Van Sant, and I'm a reporter for CBS News. And we were working on a story about a woman named Carolyn who used to live in your apartment. And we came by to ask you if we may have permission to come into your apartment to take some video pictures.

Early in the afternoon on December 20th, 1988, colleagues and students of Carolyn Ables came to this apartment building after she failed to show up for work. Kathy, Sandra, and three Korean men walked down this hallway. Surprisingly, the door was unlocked, and they went inside. Who was the first person into the apartment? Kathy. She went, did a beeline right to the bedroom. Kathy came out of the room and said, Carolyn's dead. We need to call an ambulance. No, we need to call the cops. And she didn't want me to go look at the body. So we have our shoes off and we're ready to check out the murder scene. This is the room where Carolyn Abel left this world and she put up a fight in her last minutes

of life. She had a number of defensive wounds and she took the brunt of it. More than 30 stab wounds including a cut from ear to ear on the throat. And there was blood everywhere in here, on the walls, on the bed. It was a mess. Korean police and press swarmed the apartment, which had been ransacked. And within hours,

the murder led the national news in South Korea. And I remember watching the news and the cameras panning around the room and they kept going in on this teddy bear. And it was really horrible. The impact of seeing her body wheeled out in a body bag really made it quite real. It wasn't a dream.

It became the nightmare that it really still is to this day. How did you get the news of what had happened to your sister? I was at home, and my mother called me. She told me that Carolyn had been murdered, and I just, I we're just crying trying to figure out I think how could this happen who would want to do this to her everybody loved Carolyn why with the killer still out there Carolyn's friends wondered could they be next?

We were all certain that perhaps a Korean had probably killed her. If a Korean hated an American this much, was he coming after the rest of us? The shocked friends turned their attention to Kathy and Sandra, who had discovered Carolyn's body. They seemed horrified. I was so concerned about them. They were hysterical. It seemed as if they were having a nervous breakdown. Days later, Kathy

Patrick led a memorial service for Carolyn. I think it was quite moving. Even now thinking about it, you tear up a bit. Kathy also wrote Carolyn's parents. Wanda still has that letter.

Please know that I love Carolyn as a sister and a dear friend. My roommate and I are the two people who found Carolyn in her apartment. Let me know if I can tell you anything. In Japan, Tomoyuki learned the love of his life was gone. But he decided to make his trip to South Korea anyway. He stayed with Kathy and Sandra. Even today, after all these years, 30 years, this still gets to you, doesn't it?

Yeah. Sorry. In Seoul, rumors were swirling, and South Korean police cast a wide net. We were all suspects. Every single teacher on the staff was interviewed. You know, the Korean police were in our faces, just like, where were you? How did you know Carolyn? What's your story? Why are you here? Why did you come to our country? Are you secretly FBI? We just kept thinking, why are you asking me this? Get out there and find the real killer. I just kept thinking, why are you asking me this? Get out there and find the real killer.

Then Nancy took a phone call in the teacher's lounge that moved the investigation in a whole new direction. Sounded like a Korean woman. And then very quickly she said, I know who killed Carolyn. I said, what? She said, an American military officer. Nancy told the South Korean police who brought in detectives from the U.S. Army.

And very quickly thereafter, John Boatwright walked in. John Boatwright was a legendary chief of detectives for the Army's Criminal Investigation Division in South Korea. He quickly eliminated the U.S. military officer who was pegged as a suspect by his ex-girlfriend. He did not know Carolyn Abel, and it appeared that she was just trying to get revenge on him for the bad breakup. Three weeks after the murder, an autopsy revealed the cause of death, a stab wound to her right lung. The report also confirmed her throat was cut. In my opinion, her throat was cut after she was deceased. After?

How unusual is that, based on your experience? Very unusual. So what did happen at Carolyn's apartment? And I was convinced that whoever did this probably knew Carolyn. Why? Because there was no signs of poor attention to the apartment. It appeared that whoever was in that apartment knew her. There were two coffee cups found in the room. If there's a break-in, generally a criminal would

not say, hey, let's have a cup of coffee before I ransack your place and attack you. That certainly would not be normal. Like his South Korean counterparts, Boatwright decided to question Carolyn's colleagues, who told him... You really should look at the two girls who found the body. Those two women? Sandra Ames and Kathy Patrick. We assumed that a Korean had probably killed her, but little did we know that the enemy was inside

that staff room with us. Just weeks after Carolyn Abel's murder, the investigation by John Boatwright was focusing on the two friends who had discovered her body, roommates Kathy Patrick and Sandra Ames. And do you get a chance to question each of them? No. Kathy Patrick had already gotten on a plane and left Korea. We had encouraged her to go. She must have lost 15 pounds. She just looked like someone who was about to break.

Kathy returned home to Washington State, but Sandra was still in Seoul. I took a statement from her, and then I asked her, did you kill Carol? And she just sort of sat there and stared at me. She's just staring at you.

That's correct. After about 30 seconds, she was very quiet, but she said, no, that was just not normal. Sandra maintains she had nothing to hide. So two months after the murder, she waived her right to an attorney and agreed to take a lie detector test. I remember being hooked up to all the wires in a darkened room.

He asked her, do you know where the murder weapon is? And she said no. And she really peeked out on that, indicating that she was not being truthful. I said, I'm not lying, I'm telling the truth. So we took it again with the same results. And at that point, I said, let me tell you about this picture in my head. The picture was a dark shape on a bed, covered in a quilt that I knew was a body.

Sandra described that picture in her head as a fragmented memory of that night. As Boatwright asked her for more details, she told a new story. It was nothing short of a bombshell. The story began with being in bed and having Kathy at the door of my room and coming in and saying, I think I killed Carolyn.

What with? I asked. And she said, a knife. Where is it? I asked. In the kitchen sink. Sandra said she was in disbelief and asked Kathy to take her to Carolyn's apartment, where she saw her friend's brutalized body on the bed, covered in blood. To the best of my recollection, we sat in the living room at Carolyn's apartment, and she convinced me, manipulated me, to help her make it look like a robbery. Though she didn't mention it when we spoke with her, Boatwright says that during their interview, Sandra made another statement about her own actions that night after she walked in and saw Carolyn's body.

She says, I touched her arm, and it was warm. And at that point, I realized that she may be still alive and that she might testify against Kathy. And so I went to the kitchen and got a knife and came back, and I cut her throat to make sure she was dead. And I cut her throat to make sure she was dead. Remember, Boatwright believed that wound was inflicted after Carolyn was already dead, from the stab wound to the lung. So what Sandra is telling you is actually forensically matching up what was done to Carolyn's body.

Absolutely. But Sandra's story quickly changed. In these official statements, Sandra wrote that Kathy had admitted to cutting Carolyn's throat. And today, Sandra claims that the only reason she made that admission was due to false memories implanted by investigators. But she doesn't deny going to the crime scene or handling the murder weapon. You did tell authorities at the time that you cleaned a bloody knife. I did. I did, and that was because I remembered putting the clean knife into the dish rack. Kathy had said that that was the knife she had used to kill Carolyn.

It may seem far-fetched, but Sandra claims those memories had been suppressed deep in her subconscious mind until the interview with Boatwright. So are you telling me the truth? Yes. Yes. Because some of these lapses in memory are kind of convenient. Oh, they're very convenient, but no, this is the truth as I lived it. Though Sandra's story was bizarre, to say the least, investigators believed the core details, which never changed, that Kathy woke her up and confessed to killing Carolyn, and the two of them staged it to look like a robbery. And the evidence they collected appeared to back that up.

Each time that she was interviewed later, she kept changing the facts to limit her involvement in the murder. But she never denied that Kathy did the murder, and she never denied that she was present just after the murder. Who do you believe

held the knife and murdered Carolyn Abel? Kathy Patrick. After her confession, Sandra Ames was kept in house arrest here in Seoul. Five months later, in July of 1989, she pleaded guilty to harboring a criminal and suppressing evidence. I was fingerprinted, photographed, and put into a holding cell.

But why would Kathy want Carolyn dead? Investigators uncovered a secret which provided a potential motive. Kathy really fell for Carolyn. Tamara Doak was one of the few teachers who knew Kathy was gay. And she would confide in me, you know, I really like this woman. I think she's into me. And I'm like, Kathy, I don't really think she's gay. You should really be careful.

Kathy told me that she was in love with Carolyn and that her feelings were not necessarily returned. I believe that Kathy and Carolyn were alone during that initial attack. The thing that makes most sense to me is Kathy tried to kiss Carolyn, and Carolyn pushed her away and rejected that kiss. I think Kathy was so enraged and angry that she lost control. Kathy Patrick was now the prime suspect in Carolyn Abel's murder. A murder warrant for her arrest was issued in South Korea. Back in Japan, Carolyn's boyfriend Tomoyuki heard the news.

You stayed with Cathy at her apartment? For her part in the alleged crimes, Sandra was sentenced to one year in prison. Meanwhile, Kathy Patrick was back at home in Washington state. The South Korean government made diplomatic requests to return her to Seoul from the U.S. to face a murder charge, but hit a wall. There was no extradition treaty with Korea at the time. Once she left, they couldn't get her back there.

Why couldn't we see through Kathy and Sandra? It's just unreal. You know, so in one fell swoop, you learn that your friends are involved in this crime and that the one who might have been the killer is free because of this loophole in American law. In the States, Carolyn's family pushed for an arrest. The U.S. attorney in Washington State said,

no, you can't arrest her because she hasn't committed a crime in the United States. There was no jurisdiction to arrest her for murder. And that's what pushed my family to say, wait a minute, this isn't right. But American authorities weren't finished with Kathy Patrick. And soon they would come face to face with her. Did you ask Kathy Patrick flat out, did you murder Carolyn Abel? Yes, I did. So this is one of the last pictures taken of her alive.

Right, right. In the days after Carolyn's murder, Wanda worked overtime during the holidays to bring her home. We got her back in time to hold the funeral on New Year's Eve. Gone, but never forgotten. Wanda Abel and her family were pushing the government to pursue a case against Kathy Patrick, who had left South Korea just weeks after Carolyn's murder. So do you believe this sudden move from South Korea to the United States

was in a way an expression of consciousness of guilt? Yes. Well, Kathy knew she did it, so she had to suspect that sooner or later somebody was going to put it together or that Sandra was going to crack and tell on her. So she spent as little time in South Korea as possible after she killed Carolyn. With Kathy Patrick back in Washington state, Carolyn Abel's family was fearful they could be targeted. I was worried that Kathy would try to kill us because Kathy

wrote these letters to my parents that she was her great friend and that, you know, she'd love to meet them. And I was working through my mind, what would I do if I saw this person or if she showed up at my house? Despite the lack of an extradition treaty, there was still that South Korean arrest warrant for murder for Kathy Patrick. My name is Stephen Schroeder. I'm a retired assistant United States attorney, and I worked in Seattle.

They also asked the U.S. government for help. What did the South Koreans want you to do? Among other things, they wanted me to take a deposition of Kathy Patrick and ask her some questions about the murder that occurred in Seoul. It was 1989 when Schroeder was assigned the case with John Boatwright and FBI agents. Along with her lawyer, Kathy Patrick willingly sat down with them to be questioned. Did you ask Kathy Patrick flat out, did you murder Carolyn Abel? Yes, I did. What did she say? She said she did not. And did you present her with what her roommate had said?

Yes. And what did she say about that? Simply it wasn't true. And did Kathy try to shift blame at all? Did she point the finger of suspicion at all at Sandra? Not with me. Kathy also denied under oath that she was in love with Carolyn Abel. Do you believe Kathy Patrick lied to you? There was enough indication of that to justify us doing further investigation, yes. My strategy at that point was, if the Koreans did not prosecute her, then to look whether we could for basically false statements, perjury, obstruction of justice. Even though lie detector tests are inadmissible

in federal court, they are a tool used by investigators to confirm deception. Kathy Patrick willingly agreed to take one and answer questions about Carolyn's murder. The examiner concluded that she was deceptive. And deception is... Lying. Lying. Lying.

After the polygraph, Kathy Patrick, whom South Korea still wanted to arrest for murder, was free to leave. Is that frustrating? It was very frustrating. Compounding Carolyn's family's grief, Sandra Ames was released from a South Korean prison after serving just six months of her one-year sentence. And it wasn't because of good behavior.

Is it true you got out of prison because someone bribed a judge to get you out? Yep. Absolutely. We just couldn't believe it. Absolutely. We just couldn't believe it. I mean, six months for assisting a murderer and covering up the crime scene and making it look like a burglary and not even telling anybody, not talking. I don't understand. When Sandra returned to the United States, she was recruited by the FBI to go undercover and secretly record a reunion with Kathy Patrick in hopes of eliciting a confession.

I didn't even call. I simply went to her house. And what did she say to you? Sandra, what are you doing here? I simply went to her house. And what did she say to you? Sandra, what are you doing here? Probably. And I think I said something along the lines of, how could you have done that? How could you have killed Carolyn?

And she said, I don't know what you're talking about. Without incriminating statements from Kathy, the feds were not able to press charges for perjury. As long as she stays within these borders, she's a free woman. That's correct, yes. And with no extradition treaty in place, South Korean authorities put the murder case on the shelf. I think the South Koreans were taking the murder case on the shelf. I think the South Koreans were taking the attitude that this is a U.S. problem.

It's two U.S. citizens. Meanwhile, Carolyn's family carried on with their quest for justice. My dad contacting every congressman, every senator. He wrote to news stations, 60 Minutes, because he was hoping that if that happened, then there would be more publicity, more pressure. While Kathy Patrick carried on with her life. If it is true that Kathy Patrick murdered your sister, is she a danger today to the public?

I think she probably is. And who knows what would trigger that kind of violence again. Kathy declined to meet with 48 Hours, so we went to her in Bellingham, Washington, where today she's a counselor at Western Washington University. We're going to make our move now to Kathy Patrick's office. Hi, Kathy Patrick. Hi, Peter Van Sammel, CBS News. My sister never got to live her life. Why does Kathy get to live a full life?

For almost three decades, Kathy Patrick has lived a quiet life in Bellingham, Washington, north of Seattle, where for the last 18 years, Patrick has lived a quiet life in Bellingham, Washington, north of Seattle, where for the last 18 years, she has worked as a student advisor at Western Washington University. Okay, this is the building. Okay, so when we get in, let's move quickly to her office. Kathy turned down our request for an interview, saying Carolyn's murder was too painful to talk about. But on this day, her past was fast approaching. Hi, Kathy Patrick, Peter Van Sant with CBS News. There are investigators from two countries that have now are certain that you

murdered Carolyn Abel. What do you have to say? I have to say that I'm innocent and that I don't know what happened after I found Carolyn's body. These are Kathy Patrick's first public words on the murder of Carolyn Abel in 30 years. Now, your roommate says just the opposite, that you confessed to her and that the two of you then went back over

to Carolyn's apartment and staged the scene as a burglary. No. That never happened? No. So she's lying to us when she told us that? I believe she is. You flunked a polygraph test.

How did that happen? I don't know the science of polygraphs. I'm not surprised that I would flunk it in retrospect, given how clammy and nervous I am right now. And I'm even shaking. It was a frightening experience. experience and I absolutely do not know what happened before I went to her apartment and found her body. It has been 30 years since this. Isn't it time to come clean about this? Investigators are certain that you committed this murder. They are wrong. If you didn't, who did? I believe it must have been Ames. Sandra Ames. She says you did it and you had her go over and help manipulate the room to make it look like a burglary. That's not true. Another circumstance in all of this is that people have... Do you want these people to leave?

Can we stop right now? These are important questions to be asked about this. There were 30 stab wounds on Carolyn's body. Friends say that you attacked her after she rejected you. Your romantic advances. No, this has to stop now, please. You're really sidelining me here, and I'm not prepared to answer questions here at my place of work. This happened 30 years ago. I have been available to investigators in Korea and in the U.S.

In her interviews with South Korean police, a deposition, and a polygraph test with American investigators, Kathy Patrick did not point a finger at Sandra Ames. Stephen Schroeder had a question about that for Kathy. Well, why didn't you tell us that 29 years ago? When we recently contacted Sandra Ames, she told us she wasn't surprised that Kathy tried to blame her and denied having participated

in Carolyn's murder. If it went to trial, I would be willing to testify. I would need to testify. Where should Kathy Patrick be today, in your opinion? She should be in prison. Plain and simple.

Thanks to the Abel family's lobbying efforts, in 1994, Congress passed a law that allows for the U.S. prosecution of U.S. nationals who kill other Americans in foreign countries. And so today, American families, if their loved ones are murdered abroad by an American, will have a very different experience than Carolyn Abel's family did. And I think we all owe them a debt of gratitude. But in Carolyn Abel's case, any trial seems highly unlikely. In South Korea, the statute of limitations for her murder

has expired, and the Abel family says investigators told them the physical evidence in the case has been destroyed, evidence that would have been crucial for a trial in the United States. No one should have to go through what my family went through. How do we live in a world where a U.S. citizen can go murder a U.S. citizen and then come back and live like nothing happened? That's the outrage of this. In a case where nothing is simple, the long path to justice may never reach its destination.

to justice may never reach its destination. I honestly can't picture her old. Because she was just always so vibrant and so energetic, and I think she still would be. You know, I miss her. She was like my best friend. We've all continued our lives as adventurous people, but, you know, we kind of carry the memory of Carolyn behind us, whatever ground we walk on, it's hard not to remember that there's another one of us who could be out there on the same path.

The law that Carolyn Abel's family helped pass has led to three successful murder prosecutions. Learn how we uncovered this unique case at 48hours.com. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.