48 Hours - Portrait of a Killer

Episode Date: February 24, 2019

A teenager said after he killed an elderly couple “it felt amazing.” Now a controversial new California law could set him free at 25. "48 Hours" correspondent Erin Moriarty investigates.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. The master bedroom. It was the most horrific, depraved murder I've ever seen as the district attorney in this county. When you think about the terror that these two people just asleep in their own bed, where we all feel the most secure.

And you wake up to this horror movie happening to you. Happy birthday! Happy birthday to you. My mom was my best friend. I never remember a day that I didn't speak with her or giggle with her. She was my world. She had been single for a while and she had decided that she was ready to settle down. Well, it wasn't a couple of months

and my mother called me and reported to me that she had met a man and his name was Chip Northup. And he was so smart and brilliant and they were like Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy meeting over the pews at the Unitarian Church and from that moment they were inseparable. She didn't want to be away from Chip. And she went with Chip.

They went together in their home, in their bed. He talked to many of the officers. I'll say that what an impact this case has had on them, just going to the crime scene and seeing how horrific the torture inflicted on these two humans, Chip and Claudia, really was. I was certain that they were going to find some forensic evidence in the crime scene.

A fingerprint, DNA, shoe prints, something. They found nothing. How soon did you hear that there was no evidence? That this looked like the perfect crime? I think we were two months into it. Yeah. We brought 25 FBI agents, experienced task force officers from other areas, and we really flooded that neighborhood. We thought it had to be somebody close to Chip and Claudia, something that happened where there was a disagreement, some family dispute,

because it did appear to be so personal. It was a very scary time because nobody knew who had done it. Davis, police emergency. Oh, yeah. Can this be anonymous? What are you reporting? Double homicide. When this tip came in, it seemed really strange. It didn't seem to match what any of us had thought.

The reason why I want to remain anonymous is because if my mom finds out, she will send me to military school. Dumbfounded. We were dumbfounded. How do you wrap your mind around a 15-year-old killer? In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just happens to all of them.

that would still avert it. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought

a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, wherever you get

your podcasts. Take a ride through Davis, California, and you'll see why the college town has been named one of this country's best places to live and why Claudia Maupin moved here. She loved living in college communities. So she loved being around all the young people and all the new ideas. Victoria Heard says Davis was one of California's safest cities when her mother first arrived in 1995

and started attending services at this Unitarian church, hoping to meet her third husband. She had been a spiritual traveler through many different religions and denominations, and she just had fallen in love with the Unitarian church. So she said to me, my husband is at the Unitarian Church. Claudia soon met Oliver Chip Northup, one of the church's founders. Well known for his social activism,

Northup was a World War II veteran and a prominent attorney. Like Claudia, Chip had been married several times, but according to his firstborn daughter Mary, the couple's families blended easily. Claudia had that ability to make every person that she spent time with feel that special so that they would come away and say, she's my best friend.

Both Chip and Claudia's families were thrilled when the couple decided to marry in 1996. I would think then the church was filled with the family. It was packed. It was filled. Did you two ever worry about their safety? No, absolutely not. No. They had an idyllic life. They had so many loved ones around them. They had so many great neighbors. They lived in Davis. Claudia and Chip had been married for 17 years when on the night of Saturday, April 13, 2013, they said goodnight to each other for the very last time.

The next morning at church, the couple was noticeably absent. I called, and I called his number, and I called Claudia's number, and they both went to voicemail. Chip was in a local folk band. When he didn't show up for a gig that afternoon, Chip's son Robert and a grandson paid a visit to Chip and Claudia's condo. He rang the doorbell and no one answered. Everything I saw indicated they were out of town. Robert had a key, but chose not to use it. Later that evening, Claudia's stepdaughter, Laura, also rang the bell. Claudia's stepdaughter, Laura, also rang the bell.

When there was no answer, she went around back and saw this open window with its screen slashed. One looked through the bedroom window, and Laura knew that something awful had happened. She saw bloodstains. She saw enough that she made a call to get other people over there. The next morning, there's 12 missed calls from my sister. She said, there's been a break-in and there are two dead bodies in the house. And then I lost it. My brain couldn't process that.

Victoria had to call her daughter Sarah and break the news. But all the police would share is that Claudia and Chip had been stabbed multiple times. I was like, multiple? What does multiple mean? Is there a certain number that we should know? And the coroner said, all I can tell you is that multiple means more than 12. It would be just over a year before they learned that Chip had 61 stab wounds. Claudia had 67. That's 128 stab wounds. How does anybody even have the strength to do that? And why would somebody want to do that?

But that wasn't even the worst of it. Davis Police Lieutenant Paul Doroshov says the killer had experimented with the bodies and had placed a cell phone into Claudia's abdomen and a drinking glass into Chip's stomach. We thought that, well, maybe there's some type of meaning to it, you know, but we were trying to latch on to every detail we could to help us with this case.

But there was little to latch on to. There was no physical evidence, not even a shoe print. The place isn't ransacked. There's no valuables missing. Clearly, this is not a burglary that was interrupted. Former Special Agent Chris Campion says that even the FBI profilers were stumped, unsure if they were dealing with one killer or more, or if the open window was even the point of entry. There's a screen that's cut through on the edges.

I think they had at this point developed a story that somebody with the key had done it, and that they'd cut this hole in the screen to divert attention. To make it look like someone had broken it. If you come up with that theory, then you have to look at family members. FBI agents had called us all individually, and you could tell that they were doing everything in their power to get answers, but there was nothing. Until they got to Chip's son Robert and his two sons, Oliver and Tony.

Oliver suffers from schizophrenia. We lived in the same town, not very far away. It would not have been logistically difficult for one of us to have gone over there and done that. Robert also had that key to the condo. Oliver, did you know that the police were looking at you and your brother? Well, yeah, they asked us to come in for questioning, and I agreed. That first day was about eight hours of questioning.

The next day was another six. It was just day after day, long hours of questioning. And I kept thinking, well, my father would want us to cooperate in every way. Without a lawyer. Were you scared? Very nervous. And with good reason.

When police searched Robert's home, they found the kind of evidence that gets people convicted. First, carpeting that had been steam cleaned on the day of the murders. Yeah, it was bad timing. I didn't anticipate that that would be the same weekend my father got murdered. It looked like I was covering up and removing evidence. Investigators also found a very disturbing drawing by Tony.

It was the image of a man with a knife standing over two children in a bed. The only thing I can say is that the three of them, they're not violent. If something had clicked and turned them violent, it would never have been for these two people. Did either one of you think that was possible? No, never. Never, not for a second, because Chip spent so much time with those boys. Those boys adored him. The family spent thousands of dollars hiring an attorney for Tony and repairing all the damage done by investigators. When they cut out the carpet, they took out some of the plumbing fixtures, looking for things that might have been put in the drain, and they also took out a little bit of flooring.

The Northup family, Tony in particular, felt persecuted. And even though his name was eventually cleared, Tony still felt that neighbors had their doubts about him. Three years after the murders, he would commit suicide. Oliver got this tattoo in memory of him. You've gone through a lot, haven't you? Yeah.

I think so. Two months after the murders, police got this call. What are you calling to report, sir? The double homicide that happened in April this year. What can you tell me about that? Everything, actually. A 17-year-old Davis High School student called to say he knew who killed that couple. It was his best friend. Daniel Marsh or Daniel Marsh. Yeah, Daniel Marsh or Dan Marsh. Daniel Marsh was a name that Yolo County District Attorney Jeff Reisig had heard years earlier, but not in connection with

a crime. All of a sudden he passed out and sort of flew back in. At the time, he was viewed as a young hero. He had saved his father's life. Right. He was the hero of the day. At 10, Marsh was given an American Red Cross Heroes Award after using CPR to save his father from a heart attack. I remember thinking at that time, this kid's going places. after using CPR to save his father from a heart attack. I remember thinking at that time, this kid's going places.

It didn't seem possible. Could that young hero really have grown up to be the vicious killer investigators were hunting for? Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list.

She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows

early and ad-free right now. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk-takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time,

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It's just The best idea yet. When you first saw Daniel Marsh, what was your reaction? A total shock that a boy was responsible for these crimes. No one imagined, says District Attorney Jeff Reisig, that the depraved killer of Chip Northup and his wife Claudia might turn out to be a 15 year old teenager. And certainly not this teenager who had once saved a life, his father's Bill Marsh. This is Daniel in 2009. At the time of the murders, Bill Marsh lived next door to Claudia and Chip. And I chose that location because it was in walking distance of their mothers.

That's where Daniel lived, at his mother Sherry's house. And it's where he was staying on the night of the murders. The day the bodies were discovered, Bill Marsh was home recovering from back surgery when police showed up at his door. Knock, knock, knock on the door. Hi, I'm so-and-so of the police. Do you know Chip and his wife?

And I said, I don't know anybody. I just moved in. About two weeks after the murders, Bill Marsh says he could no longer afford the rent and moved out. I remember very vividly, one of the neighbors came up and said, hey, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but several days after the murder, the guy in that house moved out. And we didn't think much about it at that time. And investigators might never have focused on Daniel Marsh if not for that phone call from

17-year-old Alvaro Garibay, two months after the crime, accusing his best friend of murder. Well, he talked about killing people a lot. I didn't really take it seriously until he killed someone. So help me understand that this was your best friend. I know. I don't know if I can help you understand that. Alvaro says he laughs when nervous, but back then, investigators took him very seriously. He seemed to know way too much about the murders. Gory details known only to a handful of investigators and the killer. He cut both of them open just to see the insides or something. And then he went to the woman, I think, and he wanted to know how an eye looked like. So he tried taking it out with a knife, but he said it was really hard, so he couldn't do it.

Garibay was interviewed twice, leaving investigators wondering if he was the killer. Why did it take you until now to speak to us? Because, I don't know, actually. I was afraid. Alvaro says he finally came forward because Daniel had threatened to kill again. Do you think your life was at risk? Oh, yeah.

Mine, my family's, my friends. On June 17, 2013, investigators asked the high school resource officer to bring Daniel Marsh in for questioning. Daniel, right? Yes, Daniel. And he seemed more than happy to talk. It was now up to Davis detective, Ariel Pineda, and FBI special agent, Chris Campion, to get to the truth. Did he seem worried about talking to you at all?

No, certainly not at the beginning. I think he figured he could talk his way through it. What do you know, Dan? I just know that somebody broke into this old couple's house and stabbed them, killed them. Investigators would spend the next three hours learning all they could about Daniel, looking for a way in. I was that loner kid, you know, there's always that one outcast.

Dad and Mom split when you were pretty young. Yeah. And then Mom basically left, abandoned you and your family for like three or four months. Daniel's mother ended her marriage after having an affair with a woman, Daniel's kindergarten teacher, which enraged the 10-year-old. He hated her. He would tell me that I know this woman was involved in my parents' divorce, and I just want to, like, strangle her to death.

Daniel even tried taking his anger out on himself. I used to, like, harm myself. I see a scar, too, there, yeah. As near as I understood the cutting phenomenon, it was people who just kind of have this flat, depressed kind of dark outlook on life, and the cutting actually brings that sense of living. Campion says Daniel was willing to do anything to feel something, including starving himself. All the pain and depression and anger,

just like I internalized it and I directed it towards myself. Daniel was voluntarily committed to an eating disorder clinic for 25 days. And while his anorexia seems to have passed, Alvaro says Daniel's anger continued to consume him. He would tell me a lot about suicide. And how old were the two of you? When was that? Oh, man, I think 14. I attempted it four times in my life.

It seems there were several therapists and doctors who intervened, trying numerous medications. And then in mid-December 2012, Daniel made a stunning admission, telling a school counselor that he fantasized about killing people. She was so concerned, they brought the police to the school. Marsh was shortly hospitalized. But upon release, things got worse.

Did he talk about killing? He, like, brought it up more. He was just like, I wish that person would die. But in his police interview, Daniel was denying it all, including the murders of Claudia and Chip. I don't hurt people. Then, after three hours and 38 minutes of questioning, the facade finally began to crumble.

Why the heck would you just sit here and bald-faced lie to Ariel and me? I am... You guys are threatening me with... With what? The truth? Getting arrested for two murders. I am so scared right now. Of course I'm going to do anything I can to try and say that I didn't do this. That was the first sign that he was getting over that wall, that he was getting ready to talk to us about what really happened.

If you want to help me, then don't ruin my life. Anything, send me to the psychiatric hospital. Chris, were you really prepared for what he told you next? Um, no. Every time I look at someone in my mind, I see flashes of images of me killing them. For more than three hours, Daniel Marsh insisted he knew nothing about the murders of Claudia Maupin and Chip Northup. But he began to reveal more and more about himself to agent Chris Campion.

When I was 10, I thought about and plotted about killing the woman that my mother left my father. What was your plan? I was gonna slur through. Daniel says that was when he began to fantasize about killing people. Eventually, he became obsessed with something called gore porn and a website devoted to it.

I remember just like walking into his room and he was like, dude, check this out. And it's like literally people getting beheaded. And how did he react when he was watching those videos? He just sat there. I think like fascinated by it. But it's one thing to be fascinated and another to actually take a life well you strangled the cat in the street

and then i was like okay well why'd you do that it's like well i just wanted to do that it's just i hated that cat in the interview room investigators still hadn't heard Daniel confess to killing Chip and Claudia and pressed on. When was the first time you started thinking about throwing these people down the street? Yeah, I really am. I didn't. Did you start thinking about it? That night, I just, I couldn't take it anymore. I had to do it.

I lost control. There it was. The opening that investigator Campion had been hoping for. Daniel admitted that he had been hunting for someone, anyone, to kill that night when he came upon Chip and Claudia's open living room window. I got a hole in the screen. I climbed in through the back, went to their bedroom. I opened the door.

And I just kind of stood over their bed, watching them sleep for a few minutes. My body was trembling. I was nervous but excited and exhilarated. I was actually going to do it. I was nervous but excited and exhilarated. I was actually going to do it. I was there. It's finally happening. Without any outward emotion,

Daniel described how he repeatedly stabbed Claudia and Chip. What you are about to hear is graphic, but these disturbing details would become key evidence in a family's battle for justice. I put a cup inside the guy. Daniel said it was all part of his plan to confuse investigators and get away with murder. He also taped the bottom of his shoes so he wouldn't leave prints and wore a ski mask and gloves so as not to leave behind DNA or fingerprints. But hidden by Daniel in his mother's house. Investigators found all the evidence they needed, bloody clothing and the knife used to kill Chip and Claudia.

Did you wash blood off of it or did it have to have been fairly covered? I kept it as a souvenir. A souvenir to forever remember how much he enjoyed taking two lives. It felt amazing. In fact, records show that Daniel was doing so much better in school, he was named Student of the Month after the high of the murders. It was pure happiness and adrenaline. he was named student of the month after the high of the murders. It was pure happiness and adrenaline and dopamine,

just all of it rushing over me. After Daniel made a full confession, Chris Campion did something unusual. You mentioned that pretty much everybody you meet, you have thoughts about killing them and how you would kill them. Yeah. So how would you kill me? There's a lot of ways. Choking you to death with your tie.

Okay. Beating your face into the mirror until it broke and using the glass to cut your arteries. Gouging your eyes out and just smashing your face into the mirror until it broke and using the glass to cut your arteries, gouging your eyes out and just smashing your face into the wall. Nothing personal. Nothing personal? And I said I didn't take it personally because I didn't. That's his fantasy life. I mean, Chris, do you believe that Daniel Marsh was a serial killer in training? that Daniel Marsh was a serial killer in training? Absolutely. Without a doubt.

He actually talked about how he was going to take his next victim. He was lurking in the streets of Davis at night with a baseball bat, intending to beat to death some poor passerby. I don't feel sympathy for other people at all. I don't feel empathy for them. This was not the act of a broken child who had a rough life. This was the act of somebody who, in my mind, is just evil. Daniel was immediately arrested and charged with the murders of Chip Northup and Claudia

Maupin. Was there any question whether he would be charged as an adult and be tried in an adult court? At the time, no. Because of the nature of the crime, he had to be tried in adult court. With Marsh facing life in prison, two top public defenders were assigned to his case. Then, Marsh pled not guilty by reason of insanity, something Chris Campion had anticipated. That's why I'd spent some time with him.

I wanted to make clear that he's not somebody who had had a break with reality, somebody who heard voices or had, you know, voices in his head telling him to do things. Did you ever hear any voices talking to you? He wasn't anywhere close, in my opinion, to legally insane. Even psychiatrist Dr. Matthew Soulier, who was hired by the defense, agreed that Daniel was sane, even though when they met, Daniel threatened to kill him. I didn't find him to be insane. I found him to be mentally ill, but responsible for his crimes.

And I think my understanding is that they went ahead and continued to pursue a defense of insanity. Without Soulier as their expert witness. Without Soulier as their expert witness. A year after the murders, Daniel Marsh went on trial. The defense argued that the antidepressant drugs given to Daniel for his anorexia and suicide attempts had caused a temporary insanity. Zoloft made me do it. Deputy District Attorney Amanda Zambor wasn't having it. But when you actually looked at the medical records,

he was having these thoughts and fantasies before he was ever on Zoloft. Bill, I know that you believe that a lot of your son's problems are connected to the medications he was taking, but he had fantasies about killing before he started on the drugs. He killed animals before he started on these drugs. He killed animals before he started on these drugs. I don't know that that's true. There's a whole series of confessions by people who have been on these drugs that have false memories. They believe certain things happened that never did. The question now was, would the jury agree? Would they find Daniel Marsh insane and decide a psychiatric hospital was more appropriate than prison? Were you more nervous about that?

Yes. The immediate thought is that somebody would have to be insane to do something like this. On September 26, 2014, the jury deliberated for just under two hours before finding Daniel Marsh guilty of first-degree murder. They also found Marsh sane, allowing the judge to sentence him to the maximum, 52 years to life. We are very, very pleased with the verdict. For me, we feel justice. We all exhaled. Yeah. I mean, that was great. But it wasn't over yet, was it? It wasn't over, Erin. No, it wasn't over. That's because two years later, California voters passed Prop 57 and gave Daniel Marsh a second chance. You'll recall that in this case, District Attorney Reisig made the decision to try Daniel Marsh as an adult. But under the new law, that decision would now have to be made by a juvenile court judge.

How do you call a family that sat through an entire trial, how do you call them up and say, sorry, you have to come back because there's a chance he may end up being pushed back to juvenile court where he would be

potentially released at the age of 25. A judge would now listen to evidence and decide if Daniel Marsh should have been tried as a juvenile. If so, the state might be forced to set Marsh free on his 25th birthday. He's 21 now, so in about three and a half, four years, he would be out with no supervision, no parole. He would just be free. I went into PTSD.

Immediately. And I said, I can't do this. I can't do this. I'm moving forward. But before a hearing date could even be set, a striking video appeared online. Hurt people hurt people. Through a prison rehabilitation program, Daniel Marsh took center stage in his very own TEDx talk.

The secret down. Deep, deep down. Declaring that he's reformed and deserves a second chance. I came to realize that there are no such things as evil people in this world. Only damaged people. And I'm watching it like a deer in the headlights, you know? I can't pull my eyes away. If I kept allowing myself to be trapped by my emotions and to be disconnected... How dare you was all I could say to the screen.

Marsh also took the opportunity to raise a shocking new claim, that he was the victim here. When I was a child, I was sexually abused multiple times by two different people. But he wouldn't say by whom and never even told his best friend. I don't recall anything like that. He never talked about being sexually abused. He was asked routinely about trauma and abuse and denied it every time. I believe he wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. Bill Marsh stands by his son. But why wouldn't he have said it earlier? Knowing Daniel, he probably feels

he has some sort of loyalty. I felt alone and ashamed and disgusting. You don't believe he was ever abused? I don't. I think it's a ploy to get sympathy now. Embrace our humanity. We knew our first and most important thing to do was to get the video taken down right.

Claudia Maupin's granddaughter, Sarah, took on the challenge. And within 48 hours, it was gone. It was taken down off of YouTube. A small victory, but nothing compared to the battle ahead to keep Daniel Marsh behind bars. All rise, your orders, sir. Marsh's fate was now in the hands of family court judge Samuel McAdam. Life in prison, or possibly just four more years. Let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William Marsh.

Marsh's original defense team returned to represent him, attorney Andrea Pellichino. And I think the court will be overwhelmed by the changes that he has made in a very short amount of time. Remember Dr. Matthew Soulier, the psychiatrist who Daniel Marsh had threatened to kill? He recently interviewed Marsh again and took the stand this time and said he thought Marsh had changed.

There were distinct differences in his maturity, his empathy, his insight into himself, his sense of responsibility. I don't think he's worth throwing away, in my opinion. He's killed two people. Right. I mean, isn't it possible that's the kind of person who just can't be saved? I don't believe that.

I don't believe that at all. Just when everyone thought the defense was going to rest its case, the courtroom was stunned. Daniel Marsh had decided to take his fate into his own hands. The families of Chip and Claudia were horrified when a 21-year-old Daniel Marsh took the stand to plead for his freedom. And I stared at him the entire time.

I was a really damaged, screwed up, sick kid. Maybe that's still how I come across and I really hope that's not the case. To me he was doing everything in his power to say the things that would help him in his case. I mean it's night and day you know I no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of my anger and hate. I'm not who I used to be. While trying to convince the judge, Marsh also took the opportunity to address his victim's families for the first time.

I'm sorry I took them away from you. I can't even bring myself to look at you. I think he didn't look because he realized he couldn't feign empathy. It's hard for me to even wrap my mind around how I could have done something that awful. And I guess I've just been afraid to actually face that. But before Judge McAdam would decide if Marsh should be treated like a juvenile and receive a lighter sentence, he asked the prosecution to call an expert on psychopaths.

Dr. Logan, good morning. Forensic psychologist Matthew Logan. Some of the traits are glib superficial charm, pathological lying, lack of responsibility, inability to feel remorse. While Logan never met Marsh, he did examine his records. I spoke to Dr. Logan via FaceTime. Is Daniel Marsh a psychopath? In my view, yes. After his conviction, Marsh scored a whopping 35.8 out of 40 on the widely used psychopathy checklist, one of the highest scores Dr. Logan has ever seen. It's generally accepted as the gold standard for diagnosing psychopathy. Do you believe that Daniel Marsh could kill again

and will kill again? I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again. And Dr. Logan says Marsh's testimony did nothing to convince him otherwise. I've interviewed hundreds of psychopaths and they've all seen the light. And one of the things that is very typical

of the psychopath is that ability to con and manipulate. The two-week hearing culminated on October 24th, 2018, when a packed courtroom convened to hear the judge's decision on Daniel Marsh's fate. Let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William Marsh, Judge McAdam first sent jitters throughout the courtroom. Marsh is coping well with being incarcerated. He is not exhibiting the signs of a serious mental illness. He said he found the testimony of Marsh to be credible, but in the end concluded that Marsh's release just wasn't a chance worth taking. Marsh's original sentence would stand.

The defendant is remanded to state prison to serve the balance of an indeterminate life sentence with a minimum of 52 years. You could kind of feel the relief in the courtroom when the judge read his final decision from the family members. I went outside and was like, okay, I need to take a deep breath. And I could not catch my breath. And I still feel that way. I still feel that it's not still feel that it's not over.

Because it's not. In September 2018, California Governor Jerry Brown signed a new law known as SB 1391, which makes it impossible to ever try a 15-year-old offender as an adult, even one like Daniel Marsh. So what 1391 says is that the DAs can never, ever prosecute a juvenile that's 14 or 15 years old as an adult, no matter how heinous the crime, no matter what torture they inflicted. no matter how heinous the crime, no matter what torture they inflicted. Marsh's lawyers have vowed to do what they can to have Daniel retroactively included under that new law. We're going to fight that every step of the way.

We might lose. And if we do, Daniel Marsh will come back to our county and he will be sentenced as a juvenile, where he would be eligible for release at 25. If that happens, the state will have to argue every two years to keep Marsh behind bars. which means a still grieving family may never fully heal. We just went through this entire year having to rehash everything. It was literally like being in the trial all over again.

And even more so because I had to hear him. It re-traumatizes me every time. Special Agent Chris Campion is just as traumatized at the idea of Marsh ever being set free. Daniel Marsh is in the top three of the people I'm most scared of. What was your plan? I was going to slither through. Because he's got that combination of being a psychopath and this deep, dark desire for murder and gore and bloodshed.

It's the most exhilarating, enjoyable feeling I've ever felt. And it doesn't go away. It just doesn't. In California, there are at least three other pending cases where juveniles have been convicted of murder and sentenced as adults. Under the

new law, their sentences might be dramatically reduced. Watch more of Daniel Marsh's testimony at 48hours.com. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.