48 Hours - Post Mortem: The Night of the Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Join us for Post Mortem, a new companion podcast to 48 Hours. CBS News correspondent Anne-Marie Green will go behind the scenes with the 48 Hours correspondents and producers who know these stories best. In the premiere episode, veteran correspondent Peter Van Sant and producer Liza Finley take you inside their latest reporting on the fatal stabbings of University of Idaho students Kaylee Goncalves, Maddie Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin. You’ll also hear about 48 Hours’ first national television interview with Xana Kernodle’s family, along with new theories from the families about what may have happened the night of the murders as we await the trial of Bryan Kohberger, who has been charged with the murders. If you missed “The Night of the Idaho Student Murders,” you can catch up with the 48 Hours showcast or on Paramount+. 48 Hours airs Saturdays 10|9c on CBS and Streaming on Paramount+.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours. So I'm your host, CBS News correspondent Anne-Marie Green, and each week we will take you behind the scenes with correspondents and producers who know these stories best. We go deeper into each episode, explaining how the reporting came together and their personal experiences with investigating these crimes. Now, not only do I report for 48

Hours, but I am personally a huge fan of the show. So I'm really excited to take a closer look at these cases with the 48 Hours team to hear their stories, including, you know, brand new details. And we're talking about details that never made it into the episodes. We're going to start, though, by answering some of your biggest questions about the Idaho student murders. This is a case that captivated and continues to captivate the country. And joining me now is longtime 48 Hours correspondent, Peter Van Sant, and producer, Liza Finley. Welcome, guys. So good to have you guys here. Thanks, Anne-Marie. We're very happy to be here. Yeah, this postmortem is something we dream about because we have so much information,

particularly on this story, that we can't get to in the limited time. So this is a wonderful opportunity to expand and share with our viewers and listeners, in this case, some new details. Before we get to our postmortem, let's listen to an overview of this week's episode. It's been a long and painful journey for the families of Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, the four University of Idaho students who were stabbed to death in the pre-dawn hours of November 13, 2022. Do you ever dream of your sister? Yeah, I've had some dreams of her.

It just gives me some peace knowing that I know she's okay. Zanna Kernodle's sister Jasmine and father Jeffrey are speaking out for the first time since Zanna's murder. This happened, you know. What do you do? You can't do a damn thing. Everybody's going to work and you look out the window and there's kids running down the street laughing. And you're just like, how can you be out there playing? My daughter's dead. On the night of the murders, Christy and Steve Gonsalves' daughter Kaylee was in the same bed as her childhood friend, Maddie Mogan. childhood friend, Maddie Mogan. The Gonsalves' say-coroner, Kathy Mabbitt, told them before a gag order, the killer attacked Maddie first, then moved on to Kaylee. There's evidence to show that

she awakened and tried to get out of that situation. The way the bed was set up is what... She was trapped. She was trapped. A judge has entered a plea of not guilty on Brian Koberger's behalf. The murders of college students Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Zanna Canodal, and Kaylee Gonsalves shocked the country in November of 2022 and really captured the attention of the country. and really captured the attention of the country, I think part of it had to do with that this is a time in your life that is supposed to be one of the best times in your life. And every photo that you saw of them was bursting with life.

So the idea that those lives were cut short, I think, really shook a lot of people. This is such a deeply personal story, perhaps the most that I've ever been involved with. I'm a father of six, six who've all gone to university. I attended Washington State University, eight miles from where this murder scene was located. State University, eight miles from where this murder scene was located. And when I went to school there, the idea of crime might be a kid stealing a candy bar from a store. It was just simply unheard of. So it's deeply personal. And to connect with the family, the Gonsalveses, Christy and Steve, and to speak with Jasmine and Jeffrey Kernodle, Jasmine is Zanna's sister and Jeffrey her dad, was the most profound

interviews I think I have ever done. And Liza was in on this. We were all so moved. It was so emotional. It really was. You know, genuinely had tears in my eyes at times. And as I watched this hour for the eighth time, And as I watched this hour for the eighth time, I still get tears in my eyes because the sense of loss is profound and it is felt all over the world. And you're right, Anne-Marie, this time of innocence, the adventure of learning, the deep friendships formed at university. And to see it interrupted like this, allegedly by a person they still don't have a motive for, just shocked everyone. The Gonsalves, they moved to the general area because they wanted a safe place to raise their kids. Yeah. Talk about ironic. They lived in California. It was getting kind of dangerous there, they felt. They have five children. So they went on a road trip and we were going to find America's

best place to live, the safest place to raise our family. And they settle on this beautiful, beautiful little town in Idaho. And lo and behold, just a few hours away by car where Kaylee went to school, the worst crime imaginable happened. they regret moving you know they go if only we hadn't moved there's also something else i wanted to mention at this point that the gonzalves's shared with us that we weren't able to to get into our broadcast their daughter kaylee gonzalves uh was a true crime fanatic. She watched all these shows. She loved watching 48 Hours. And she was concerned enough about crime

that she would take notes, her mom said, during the broadcast. And she came up with a plan of action. Hey, if any of us are ever assaulted, if we're ever in a crime situation like we've seen on 48 Hours and these other shows, this is what we should do. She actually typed it out and the family had a nickname for her. They called her the protector because of this. And I talked to Christy about it.

Can you imagine the horror when the worst possible nightmare, in this case, it's not a cliche, is occurring. Her best friend in life, Maddie, killed alongside her. And now the assailant is attacking her. You know, one of the ironies, though, which you were talking about her philosophy after being such a true crime show fanatic was separate. I'll go right, you go left, so one of us will survive and be able to call the police and come to your rescue. Well, those two young women were killed in the same bed. They didn't have a chance to separate. She was trapped. Kaylee was trapped. There are so many components of this

that sort of give you chills. You focus on the families, which cannot be easy. I can't imagine it was easy to get them to talk. We have a great colleague out in California named Greg Fisher, who had established a relationship with the family. When we did our first hour earlier in 2023, I did a Zoom interview with Steve Gonsalves, and I felt as though we had really connected. They said, okay, you've got five minutes, because he was going from reporter to reporter. And we really connected and we talked for 25 minutes. And when that story ran, we understood that the family appreciated how respectful we were. There was no sensationalism. This is 48 hours. This is CBS News. And that connection continued. And so Greg Fisher was talking with the family out there and said, Peter would really like to sit down and have a longer conversation with you. And because, and Liza is really strong on this, they believe that transparency and getting these words out is important for them to find justice. They agreed to the interview.

There's a gag order, and that was issued by the judge, and it basically prohibits attorneys, law enforcement, officials from speaking. false information out there that he believes that real journalists real officials should be dispelling these these false falsities so he he agreed to this very long interview six seven hours yeah i heard peter is legendary for his long interview he is famous for that in our shop we're gonna go two more hours on this. But it was great. They were extraordinary. And once, you know, people, families, everyone has to remember this. Families that have gone through this kind of shocking trauma, they don't interview one another, right? That's not the way we talk. All of us have lost someone in our families.

When that's happened in my case, I don't interview my sisters about how you're feeling and things. And so sometimes when when a person like myself comes into the picture, it's such a catharsis for them. There's so much they want to say. valued about it is their willingness to pull us into this moment in their life, which is the most painful moment that they will ever experience. And it's going to go, it's going, it's not a moment, it's their life now. But we often, you know, sometimes when we tell these stories and 48 hours is an excellent job at being compassionate and fair, but it is an hour and a whole case. And we don't sort of get a chance to slow down and be reminded of the human victims that are still alive. Zanna's sister, Jasmine, has never spoken before. Her father, Jeffrey, never spoken before. And in this case, you didn't pre-interview them? You didn't get a chance to talk to them ahead of time? No, not at all. Not with the Gonsalveses either.

But I prefer that. I prefer that we get to know each other in the course of this interview. You always begin very gently. You talk about the sister that she loved, the daughter that he loved, and you work your way into the details. And I find when we both are trying to sort each other out, if you can make that connection, it becomes a profound thing and they really open up. Jasmine Kernodle, oh, Santa's sister. Amazing.

She's just, it gets me talking to right now about it. She's the power of the grief inside her to be able to express some of that. And Jeffrey, which you saw in the hour, and you'll see him in other interviews in the future too, he physically reacts. Sometimes his body movement is even more powerful than his words. When you talk about when they heard the words from police that they're they're his daughter her sister that she was dead oh my god how it hits him and that was so genuine and so genuine um when i was getting ready to watch the hour i was sort of preparing myself for grief. I thought I will be so saddened by this. But instead, I found myself impressed with their strength, their power. There was sort of a weight

to that grief. Does that make any sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. It becomes becomes you know for for those of us who work on these stories uh we do so many of them and they're all so horrendous and there are those moments where you're sitting across from somebody or looking at them in the edit room and you go how real this is and that was so real these these families you know yeah it's a it's it's heartbreaking the gonzalez's you know it's as loving a family as you will ever meet and right away they they started digging in and as steve has said we were not going to sit back and just wait for justice and when you realize what his daughter, Olivia, accomplished in her deep dive, which we'll get into,

but they moved ahead instantly. They channeled that grief into action. So let's talk about it a little bit, the incredible amount of investigating that the families did, especially Kaylee's sister, Olivia. She found the ride-share driver who dropped Kaylee off at the home that night, something that she says even law enforcement had not discovered. I want to play a little sound.

Olivia got into her sister's call log and frantically started cold calling recent numbers. She says a friend told her that Kaylee had been at the Corner Club bar around 1.07 a.m. and later texted a rideshare driver, who Olivia managed to track down. The rideshare driver said around 1.45, Kaylee had texted him requesting a ride from the Grub Truck, which is the local mac and cheese food truck, to take her back home to 1122 King. And she had with her another female. Olivia then uncovered one of the most important leads in the case. The rideshare driver told her about a camera mounted on the grub truck. So I was able to look it up and find Kaylee on the video,

and I saw the girl that she was with was Maddie. So at that point, I knew Kaylee and Maddie were together. They got into the car to go home together and alone. The driver told her the exact time Kaylee and Maddie were dropped off at their house on King Road. 1.56 a.m. A timeline, she says, she confirmed before the police. I immediately took it to the police officers. Here's her phone information.

Here's the ride share driver's name. You know, what's interesting about that right there is that the police had the wrong time when they returned home. They, by 11 minutes. So she was able to put that timeline on track, which is sort of, you know, a domino effect. Yeah. They get the right time, they get home, they get this, they get that, they get that. And she was able to correct that right off the bat, which got them mobilized and moving in the right direction. There is still so much to get into here. So when we get back, we're going to talk about Brian Kohlberger's trial,

what the defense might say to poke holes in the case, new evidence the prosecution might present, and a possible link, yeah, a link between Kohlberger and the victims that the González's think that they've discovered on Instagram. Stick around. they've discovered on Instagram. Stick around. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty.

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by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet. All right, welcome back, everyone. The trial of Brian Koberger had been set for October 2nd of 2023, but it was postponed because he waived his right to a speedy trial. So the question is, what do we think we can expect once this kicks off? Liza? Essentially, what they're going to challenge in the prosecution's case, they're going to challenge, one, the collection of the DNA. There were three male other DNA samples found at the scene, two inside the house, one in a glove outside. They still don't know who those belong to, and the defense wants to know why. They say there's no connection,

none at all, between Koberger and any of the four victims in that house. And if there's no connection, there's no motive, why would he have done something like this? And then to me, one of the most intriguing ones, if it's true, we don't know any of this because we don't it hasn't been litigated and hasn't been argued in court. They claim that there's absolutely. Now, mind you, this is one of the bloodiest crime scenes ever. I mean, four people slaughtered with a military style. And we saw the blood on the outside of the house. And I know you probably went back and forth as to whether or not you should show that, but I think it really sort of gave you an idea of what went on. Yeah. And the family told us they want the world to know the, and this is the word they use, the ferocity of these murders. It's important, the savagery that went into this.

Right. And as Peter said, that house was literally bleeding. If the house could talk, what would it say? That's a wonderful question. But so back to this intriguing statement that the defense has put out there, they say there's this bloody crime scene. We know how easily it is to get a hair or a speck of blood. They say there's absolutely We know how easily it is to get a hair or a speck of blood. They say there's absolutely no DNA evidence of anyone from that house or that house in his apartment, in his car, on his person. And if that's true, that is pretty intriguing.

So let's talk about a receipt from Walmart and a Dickies tag that was found at his apartment. Though we don't know what items were listed on the receipt, what does the Gonsalves family think this discovery really means? The family has a theory. They believe that he brought what they call a kill kit, that he had a bag that had a change of clothes in it. That's what they're calling it. What they're calling it. And they said that, and we do not have time for this in the hour, but that during the course of

this search warrant that was done at Kohlberger's house, they have a receipt and that the receipt, according to the Gonsalves family, is in evidence right now. And it may suggest that he bought a clothing that perhaps that he wore during the course of this murder is what they're suggesting. And that that clothing was not found at his apartment after when the search was done. But even so, as Liza said, because we have done so many of these stories, the notion, you know, when you're using a knife, for instance, and there's called castaway blood, as you raise it up and then back down, the hair, skin, blood, the notion that nothing at all was found in that car, nothing at all, is really quite extraordinary. And the defense is going to

be playing that up. And remember, they say about his alibi for that night, Brian Kohlberger's, he admits he was out driving late that night. He was driving around. That's what he says. That would explain the cell phone in the vicinity and also seeing that car on the surveillance cameras. And among the things, of course, they're going to talk about in the prosecution of this case was the 12 visits prior to the murders in that neighborhood. But also there was a 13th visit the day of the murder, once it became publicized, because this occurred in the early, early morning hours.

Well, later that day, prosecutors say that Koberger's, according to the affidavit, his car was in that area again. But remember, he's studying criminology. And I'm sure their people would argue, yes, he was fascinated by this horrible crime. And as a criminologist, he drove over, as many people did, into that area to see what was going on. But then there's always the theory that the criminal returns to the scene of the crime because they want to see what's going on and they want to sort of get the last laugh. Ha ha, I got away with this. Look at everybody running around. Look at everybody. Right. Well, one theory that is out there that the Gonsalves family has come to believe is the notion that Brian Kohlberger may have been inside that house

prior to the day of the murders. And they base that on the fact that the coroner in the case told them that the assailant entered the house and the first people that were attacked were on the third floor of the house. There were others on the second floor. And that suggested to the Gonsalves that the killer knew to go to the third floor. How would he know that if he hadn't been in the house before? So this is the family's filling in the blanks, though. This is the family's conjecture. That's some information. They're trying to explain it. Right. We have not had any investigator tell us this. Of course, there's this gag order, They're trying to the murders. When you really think about this whole thing,

how does this person in this house that has three floors know where to go and how to do it and kill so rapidly? As one of our people said, he's a student. He's not an assassin. Right. But it seemed like he was so efficient, which is, I think, one of the reasons why the Gonsalveses believe he had to know where he was going when he got in there.

He had to know who he was after and what he planned to do. Now, Christy, Gonsalves says, she thinks he went in to kill one, but he killed four. So that he was caught off guard by the fact that there were two people in the first bedroom. Exactly. And there was also the bit about Kaylee's dog, right? Kaylee slept with that dog every night. And that was their routine. And when officials got to the house and discovered that horrible scene, the dog was in a separate bedroom by itself.

And so that just raised questions with the Gonsalveses that, did he know there was a dog? Had he seen a dog in a visit? Had he actually even maybe given the dog a treat where it wouldn't bark at him? And did he put the dog in that room? It's just something that the Gonsalveses have focused on and raised with us. So we've been talking a lot about the different theories about how Koberger may have committed these murders. But what is also new in this hour is the Gonsalveses discovered what they think is a possible connection between him and the victims.

So the Gonsalves family heard the name Brian Koberger. Olivia Googles his name, and they end up finding this Instagram account that the family believes was a genuine one. I want to play a little sound from the hour about the connection that the family feels might be there. You would go to Maddie's Instagram account and look at her pictures and he liked them. Brian's name was under a lot of Maddie's pictures, like that picture and that picture and that picture and that picture. So he was actively looking at the Instagram account.

And the importance of that is what? Just digital evidence that this particular account had some type of connection with the victims. And if that's true, that's huge, because what it does is it establishes a relationship, a connection between Koberger and the victims, at least two of the victims. And the defense is saying there's no connection. So which is true, that will be a very important point to be made

at trial. As has been said by one of our experts in the hour, if there's no connection, there's no motive. Everyone who watches 48 Hours, who's listening to this right now, knows you don't have to have a motive. Prosecutors will tell you all the time you don't have to and serial killers you know ted bundy didn't have to have a motive for each of his killings he just had a satisfaction in killing someone and the gonzalves's believe that that uh coberger who again is accused of this not convicted of anything as as yet of course, that he did this, in their opinion, simply to be done by somebody, the viciousness of it, by somebody who takes pleasure in it or has a sense of arousal from it. Did you reach out to the Kohlberger family?

Yes, we've done that many times. And we're still hoping that they will change their mind and talk about Brian. And we hope that happens. What I'm hearing is that the Koberger family does not believe he did it. But there is something very, very interesting that Steve Konsalves was very clear about, that he's going into this trial with an open mind, that he thinks, they think, that it looks like coberger did it however maybe he didn't and they have uh an open mind about that well steve has an open mind about that i was surprised by that because that is typically not something that you hear. No. After someone's been arrested, usually families of the victims are convinced, usually, that, you know, that's the right guy.

Yeah. Yeah. And he has an open mind. And we, as journalists, also have to have an open mind. Yeah. Because the facts of the case are being held so tightly, so closely. There's a lot we don't know. And we have to remember that. And that was another challenge in doing this hour, I think. Right, Peter? Yeah.

And absolutely. And Kohlberger has said through an attorney when he was arrested in Pennsylvania, he looks forward to his exoneration. There were others, though, that you reached out to that also didn't want to talk. Maddie Mogan's family, her parents, they did not speak to you for this episode. Maddie Mogan, Maddie was the only child of her parents, and they have spoken, of course,

at these memorial get-togethers and things, but it is so devastating and you look at her face you look at maddie's face and you see this this bright and she's intelligent this big hearted woman with everything in front of her uh and they invested everything and all their love and wisdom in this one child and that child is taken from them under these circumstances, we understand. Ethan Chapin's family, who obviously are suffering enormous loss, they have chosen to not do an interview with 48 Hours for this. Perhaps one day they'll want to talk, but we completely understand that they don't want to. And of course, we respect that.

Well, what a moving episode for the first one of this season of 48 Hours and for the first post-mortem podcast. I really want to thank you, Peter and Liza, for being here. Thank you, Anne-Marie. It's our honor to tell this story. It's so profound. Absolutely, it is. It's touched all of us. Thank you, Anne-Marie. Be sure to join us next Tuesday for another Postmortem.

Watch 48 Hours, Saturdays, 10, 9 Central, on CBS, and also streaming on Paramount+. And be sure to follow 48 Hours wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch.

It was called Candyman. The scary cult classic was set in the Chicago housing project. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. Candyman. Candyman? Now we all know chanting a name won't make a killer magically appear, but did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was.

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