48 Hours - Road to Redemption

Episode Date: November 29, 2015

Can talking to a killer help one woman heal in the aftermath of the murders of her sister and brother-in-law?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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The journey of the last 25 years has really tested my faith. Palm Sunday, 1990, I'm in my choir robe at the back of my church where I still sing in the choir today. This glorious music is playing, the church is full, everyone is singing. It's this joyful procession. And the last thing I expected was to have the church secretary come to me and put her hand on my arm and say, you have a phone call. And that's when my heart started to pound because I thought something's wrong, really wrong. And it was my father on the phone. And the first thing he said to me is that Nancy and Richard have been killed.

And he said someone killed them. This happy young couple with everything to live for, with no enemies, with no reason that anyone in the world should want to take their lives. And right before she died, she drew this message in her own blood. By his body, there's the shape of a heart and the letter U. Love you. My name is Jean Bishop and I'm the sister of Nancy Bishop Langert and the sister-in-law of Richard Langert. Who could have looked at Nancy's eyes, the beautiful light shining there, and pulled the trigger?

Why? Why them? Why Nancy and Richard Langert? It took 23 years to get the answer of why. Ready? Yeah. You can't see too far in front of you. It really is kind of taking one step, and then another step, and another step.

It's about a two-hour drive down I-55, and I go just about every other month. Nancy is always in my heart when I make this drive. This is my one story and it's been incredibly healing. When I first started in this journey I had no way of knowing that I would be in the place I am now. We're in front of Pontiac prison where I come to visit the person who killed my family members. I can't close him off. He is part of this story. So you believe he deserves a second chance, he deserves an opportunity... Yes.

...to perhaps get out. Yes. I knew the first time I went there to see him in that prison that I'd be shaking the hand that held the gun that killed her. I'm Maureen Maher. Tonight on 48 Hours... Road to Redemption. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets,

the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created.

She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informant's Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, and listen and listen to more exhibit C true crime shows early and ad free right now.

Did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder early and ad free with a 48 hours plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. Winnetka is this village on the north shore of Chicago, right along the lakefront. village on the North Shore of Chicago, right along the lakefront. More than 25 years after the brutal murder of her sister Nancy and brother-in-law Richard, Jean Bishop still lives in the wealthy Illinois suburb they grew up in.

It was such a happy childhood. I was the middle of three girls, my younger sister Nancy and my older sister Jennifer. It's a community where many Chicagoans move to raise their families, and it was used by filmmaker John Hughes for movies like Home Alone to convey picture-perfect middle America. It looks pretty idyllic when you're walking down the street. It's a real quiet, safe community. That's what made the sound of sirens so shocking that Sunday in April 1990, Nancy's father, Lee, went to check on his pregnant daughter and her husband.

daughter and her husband. He had gone to the townhouse and rung the doorbell and there was no answer. So he let himself in and then noticing the light on in the basement, he went to the top of the basement stairs. He looked down and there were Nancy and Richard. And he could see them frozen in death, his youngest daughter and his son-in-law. But who would commit such a gruesome and deliberate crime? It would take a long time to answer that question. And even longer for Nancy's family to find a path to forgiveness. Two and a half decades later, it is still a work in progress. How would you describe this 25-year-long journey that you've been taking since your sister's murder?

Oh, I think it's been this incredible adventure. Oh, the heart of it was Nancy. Every time I get to say her name, every time I get to tell her story, it's a way of making sure that the world does not forget her. She was the comedian, and when she got older, she was kind of the one who could get away with anything. Oldest sister, Jennifer. She was fun. Fantastic sense of humor. My mother is a very, very classy, well-mannered, elegant lady, And Nancy would be the one that could just make her laugh to the point where she would say, oh, that's awful. Oh, that's awful. Joyce Bishop says her daughter Nancy was also a gifted performer, excelling at Winnetka's

competitive Nutrier High School. But Nancy's aspirations stayed rooted in family. She wanted to be a wife and a mother. Exactly. And have a home. That was all she wanted. And she was on her way. In her early 20s, Nancy met Richard Langert. I thought he was just this perfect match for Nancy

because he was this tall, handsome jock. And he would just be kind of basking in this glow that she cast. He would kind of look at her like, isn't she the most wonderful thing? I would look outside and he would be out mowing our lawn without having been asked, now, is that a good guy? That is a good guy. That is a smart guy. I declare that Richard and Nancy are husband and wife. They married in 1987 and were soon working together for a growing coffee company.

Every month, she was hoping and praying and wishing that she would get pregnant. Within a few years, Nancy found out she was pregnant. She actually said in 1990, this is going to be our year, because they had been married three years they were expecting their first child they were moving into their first house she was so happy. But until their dream house was ready Nancy and Richard were temporarily living in this townhouse owned by her parents. They really were just living out of the suitcase, more or less.

On Saturday, April 7th, the family got together at a restaurant in Chicago to celebrate Lee's birthday and Nancy's big news. Nancy and Richard were just in their heyday. They loved it. I had a baby gift already for Nancy, and we were just the happiest family you can imagine. What do you remember being the last

words that you said to her that night? Oh, I remember exactly, because I never say them now. I hugged her goodbye, and I said, I'll see you tomorrow, and I never say that to anyone anymore because you don't know that that will be true. When Nancy and Richard returned to the townhouse that night, their killer was already inside, waiting. The husband was executed, shot once in the head with his hands handcuffed behind his back. The wife was shot three times in the upper body. Everything in me stopped. If you had sliced my wrist, I would not have bled. I was frozen. I didn't cry. I didn't feel a thing.

Surreal. Surreal. I didn't cry. I didn't feel a thing. Surreal. Surreal. I didn't cry until the next day. The news of a double murder hit at the heart of this quiet community. Whoever killed them broke into the house while the couple was away. As neighbors waited for answers, the investigators at the crime scene had many questions about the killer. There was nothing taken. Nothing.

No jewelry, no electronics, $500 of cash strewn on the ground. Almost as if it had been handed to him like, here, take this, and he had tossed it aside like, that's not why I'm here. What did that say to you? That said to me, this is a crime that is meant to be seen as an assassination, as an execution. That it was planned, this is a crime that is meant to be seen as an assassination, as an execution. That it was planned, methodically planned.

Yes. A multi-town police task force was assembled, and Sergeant Gene Calvados was put in charge of solving the murders. It was hard to understand. As much as some things look professional, other things just look so amateur. One thing they did quickly determine was how the killer came and went undetected. In the backyard, right near the point of entry to the patio door, there's a fence there. Once you're over the fence, there's a bike trail down there, and you can go all the way to basically Chicago on it. Rumors spread about an outsider bringing big city violence to Winnetka.

But the question of why them remained. You do a check on everybody. I mean, when you have no suspect, everybody is suspect. But what if it turned out there was a connection between the suspect and someone in the Bishop family? Everyone and everything is fair game. I understood that and so did my family. What troubled me was the notion that my sister's investigation was hijacked for some other purpose. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha

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generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I knew that if someone killed them, that evil had intruded into our lives like nothing that we had ever known before. In the days after the murders, the Bishop family learned from investigators chilling details of what happened in the last moments of the couple's life.

Richard died first. The gun was put to the back of his head. He was shot once execution style. Nancy was shot twice in her side in Amteman. And then I think at some point she must have realized she was dying. And so she dragged herself by her elbows over to Richard's body where he lay. The last thing that she did before she died was to leave us a message in her own blood. She took her finger in her own blood and she drew a heart and a U. Love you. Well, it's probably the most heartbreaking thing that you could ever imagine. When I saw that heart there, mine broke.

When Detective Gene Calvados walked into that basement, he saw the brutality of the slayings firsthand, along with some odd clues. It was blood everywhere. You could smell it. And it was a set of handcuffs laying there. Near the back fence, a single glove. From the onset of that case, we had very, very, very little evidence to go on. Investigators looked into Nancy and Richard's lives. Rumors of a drug connection to the coffee business they worked for were quickly dismissed. Meanwhile, family members racked their brains for any clue they could come up with. Could you think of anyone who would have wanted to hurt them, Meanwhile, family members racked their brains for any clue they could come up with.

Could you think of anyone who would have wanted to hurt them or any sort of revenge or anything out for Nancy and Richard? Absolutely not. Completely mystified. Not a single thing. But other tips came in, including one that involved a possible link to the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, and to Jean. a possible link to the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, and to Jean. Jean, who along with being a corporate attorney, was involved with human rights work. The FBI had a theory that because I had been doing human rights work in Northern Ireland, the IRA had thought that my human rights work was actually a cover for being in the CIA, and they had come to Winnetka to kill me and had mistaken Nancy for me and that they killed the wrong person and that now I should tell them everyone I knew in Northern Ireland and all about them so that they could solve the murder. The FBI also claimed that there had been a death threat made against Jean by the IRA and given the fact that she had just returned home

from a trip to Northern Ireland three days before the murders, investigators had some questions for her. When I confronted her with that threat, and she simply denied it. She didn't believe it. I was so shocked at this theory. I said, the IRA doesn't target Americans.

I kept expressing that, Jean, I said, you have to understand where I'm coming from. You have your sister who was pregnant was killed. Her husband was killed brutally. I need to find out who did that. And I go, I'm kind of surprised that you don't want to help. She wouldn't budge. Did you feel like suddenly there had been a line in the sand

drawn between your family and investigators? I felt at the time that they were considering me uncooperative, and that's a thing that you never want to be. But that's how the media in Chicago was playing it. Winnetka police have indicated that Jean Bishop, shown here with other family members, has not cooperated with authorities in the investigation of the double slain. And so on the news, they actually did this kind of little spotlight around me, you know, as if like there

she is. And I thought, really, if you believe that my life is being threatened and I'm still a target for whoever didn't succeed in killing me, and now you're highlighting my picture on the news. for whoever didn't succeed in killing me, and now you're highlighting my picture on the news? But the IRA story and a connection to Jean never checked out. As the weeks dragged on, it looked like the killer actually might get away with it. Did you get to that point that you thought,

we may never know who did this? Yes, although my heart didn't want to accept it. I mean, I just felt so strongly that, you know, it would be this terrible, you know, shadow over my mother and my father and my sister and myself. Meanwhile, Gene Calvados was still holding out for that one perfect tip to come in. I was just hoping that somewhere along the line that we'd get the break that we needed. After following a series of false leads, dead ends, and spending about a million dollars, the task force had been shut down. Then, nearly six months to the day of the murders, two teenagers walked into the Winnetka Police Department with an incredible story and blew the case wide open. So I called Gene Kilvitis and I said, Gene, you're not going to believe this, but a kid just came in here and told me he knows who killed the Langerts.

Six months after the murders of Nancy and Richard Langer, Winnetka Police Sergeant Patty McConnell was on duty when two teenagers walked into the station asking about the Witness Protection Program. Do you think they're playing a joke, or do they look afraid? No, they definitely were not playing a joke. He was clearly very nervous. He was Fu Hong, a senior at New Trier High School who walked in with his girlfriend.

He said, you know, I know who did the Winneka murders. My friend, David Biro, he told me that he did it. David Biro had bragged to his good friend about the killings, but said nothing about his motive. He said, you know, he's got a gun in his room. He showed me the gun, and he said he got afraid that he thought he was going to kill again. Biro was no stranger to the Winnetka police. A small-time punk to me is how I would characterize him. You know, I was very skeptical. I believed that David had told him that he killed him, but I didn't believe David did it. That is until Hong described something Bureau had said about what happened at the crime scene. He said, you know,

he got nervous after he was talking to them and he popped off around. And when this kid said that to me, all the hairs on my arm and my neck stood on end because I knew that they had discovered a round in the wall on the first floor just above the baseboard. And I knew that that detail had not been in the newspapers. So only the killer could have known. Yes. And I was, like, chilled that, oh, my God, he did do it. And I was, like, chilled that, oh, my God, he did do it. Biro was arrested the next day without incident outside his family's house,

and a search warrant was issued for his padlocked bedroom. And the first place we went is I looked under the bed to see if a gun was laying there, and, in fact, there was. It was a stolen.357 Magnum, which Tess concluded was the murder weapon. That's not all they found. Biro had handcuffs similar to those found on Richard and a scrapbook of articles on the killings. But Biro told police he was only holding the gun for a friend. Did you question Biro?

I did. I would say he was very arrogant, smug. Partly, I think, because there was all kinds of speculation in the newspapers about a professional hit. I think he took a great deal of pride in that. He never admitted that he had been involved in it. David Biro was charged with two counts of first-degree murder, intentional homicide of an unborn child, burglary, and home invasion. He pled not guilty. You have this horrible crime,

and the idea is that it's someone coming from the outside. It has to be. It has to be. And in truth, it's, I mean, it's so ironic that it's someone, you know, just a kid from the neighborhood. No one was more surprised than the Bishop family. I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked that a 16-year-old boy could have put a.357 Magnum revolver to the back of a grown man's head and pulled the trigger. Even more shocking, David Biro was the son of a grown man's head and pulled the trigger. Even more shocking, David

Biro was the son of a family friend. I know the Biros. David Biro's father worked for my husband at one point. I thought, well, that's a mistake, I'm sure. Every year, the Biros would send a Christmas card to my family with a picture of them, the parents and the kids. And I thought, oh my God, I've seen a picture of this killer. But as information trickled out, Jean learned more about who that kid on the Christmas card had become. What did you find out or hear about him? Very disturbing things, that there had been a history of violence, that he had fired out of his window with a BB gun at passersby,

that he had lit somebody on fire. David was going down the road of a sociopath. True crime writer Gerilyn Kalarek wrote a book about the case and described a deeply disturbed David Biro, who at age 14 tried to poison his family. His brother and sister are sitting down at the table for lunch, and they drink some milk, and the milk is tainted. Somebody put wood alcohol into the milk.

Within hours, Biro's parents checked him in to a psychiatric hospital for juveniles. But after less than two months, they let him come home against doctors' recommendations for continued treatment. He convinces his father and mother not to let him come home against doctor's recommendations for continued treatment. He convinces his father and mother not to let him go back. And they didn't even bother doing any follow-up psychiatric with him. That was it. That's all he ever did. That's it. A hospital assessment written just after Biro left read, at the time of his leaving the hospital, we believed that he was dangerous to himself or to others.

His parents didn't agree. I hold them partially responsible. They knew he was dangerous, and they let him walk around unsupervised with a padlock on his bedroom door. Behind that padlock, a gun. He sought thrills. They gave him a rush. Now three years later and awaiting his murder trial, Biro's behavior remained arrogant and cocky. The authorities now believe the Langricks were chosen as victims

less because of who they were than where they lived. The motive they believe, an attempt to commit the perfect crime. In the fall of 1991, Vero went to trial with prosecutors using that perfect crime motive. Their case was strong. They had Vero's confession to his good friend and all that evidence found in his bedroom, including the murder weapon. It was one of the most sensational murder cases in recent history. As the trial begins, many questions remain about the murders. But in a surprise move,

Biro would take the stand. He's accused of two murders, but he's taking the witness stand in his own defense. 18-year-old David Biro is speaking out in public for the first time. Biro stuck to his original story, that he was just holding the gun for another student who had actually committed the murders. Prosecutors and investigators dismissed the claim outright. NANCY GRACE, When I looked at him in the courtroom, what I saw was a brash, cocky young man who pretty much believed he was going to outsmart all of us. AMY GOODMAN, Did you ever have any doubt that it was anyone other than David Biro who killed Nancy and Richard? No, no. And neither

did the jury. After a two-week trial, it took them just a few hours to reach a decision. The verdict is in for David Biro, guilty on all charges. I just exhaled in relief. I think I felt my jaw loosen and unclench for the first time since they were murdered. David Vero received two mandatory life sentences without the possibility of parole for murdering Richard and Nancy. The judge also gave him a discretionary life sentence for the death of their unborn child. The judge made a speech in which he specifically talked about his age, and he wanted it in

the record. He had every privilege in his upbringing that he killed them for sheer entertainment, and that he was the most deserving of life without parole because he was truly the most dangerous human being. Did you all have a collective agreement on the sentencing that you wanted for him? Yeah, we wanted the maximum sentence, which is the one he got. He'll die on a cold prison floor like Nancy died on a cold basement floor. The killer was going away for good, and with him went the answers they never got in court. We all wished that part of the sentence would be that he would sit down with us and we could ask him, why? How could you do this?

That answer would come, but it would take 22 years, a leap of faith, and an incredible change of heart. There was only one person who knew the answers to the questions that I had, and that was David Bureau himself. I see. Men, we're in emergency. Yes, I need the Winnetka Police for emergency. I've had two murders. Long before David Biro's arrest and conviction, Jean Bishop was consumed by one extraordinary thought. I knew instantly that I didn't want to hate anyone.

And I said those words, I don't want to hate anyone. When Nancy and Richard were killed at such a young age, I saw how short life is, how it can be taken from you at any minute. And I thought, oh my God, I'm wasting this life that God gave me. And what can I do with it? What Jean and her sister Jennifer did was transformative. You both changed your lives and your livelihood because of this and after this. Both women began to work

as outspoken advocates for gun control and against the death penalty by lobbying and speaking around the country about Nancy and Richard's story. I have done a great deal of good work

trying to change our violent culture and to help victims of violence. You're right here. Look at Nancy on the top of that pyramid. Amazingly, both Gene and Jennifer had forgiven David Biro, even though he never admitted he was the killer. Yeah, I think here's what my forgiveness was like.

It's like this. I forgive you, and now I'm wiping you off my hands like dirt. It is not for you. It's not about you. It's for me. I'm sad for him. I'm sad for how cold and empty his life must have been,

and I am not going to hate him. In fact, Jennifer reached out to Biro, inspired by a movement known as Restorative Justice, which encourages reconciliation between offender and victims and their families. And I said in a very short letter, here's my address, I would welcome a letter from you if you would like to talk to me. That's all I said in a very short letter, here's my address, I would welcome a letter from you if you would like to talk to me. That's all I said. That letter, written about 13 years after the murders, was not exactly embraced

by Vero the way Jennifer had hoped. And he said, I'm not going to confess to this crime, but I'd love to be your pen pal. It would be fun. Those were his words? Those were his words. And I said, I wrote back again a very short letter. You're clearly not where you need to be. If you ever change your mind, you know where to find me. Meanwhile, Jean, a well-paid corporate attorney at the time of the murders, made a complete 180-degree turn in her career. I became a public defender with Cook County, you know.

Wait, a public defender? Yes. The reason? Jean says it's because of the way the FBI treated her in those early stages of the investigation, when her human rights work was linked to the murders. when her human rights work was linked to the murders. So most people, Jean, they would think that you would run straight to the DA's office and say, I'll work for free because I want to catch the bad guy. I understood what it felt like to feel so powerless.

And what if you were someone who didn't have the resources that I did? They need a good advocate. resources than I did. They need a good advocate. But Jean remained passionate that juveniles with mandatory life sentences, like David Biro, should be behind bars for good. You even vowed not to say his name ever. And I didn't for 20 years. I would call him the killer, the intruder, the murderer, because what I wanted was for Nancy and Richard's name to live and for his to die. That all changed after she met Mark Osler, a law professor who was on the opposite side of the juvenile justice issue. Osler's mission is to seek reduced sentences and often clemency. She had a moral platform, and that was, this life was taken from my family, that he didn't

even accept responsibility for what he did. And something remarkable happened. Jean may have forgiven Biro, but now she felt called to do more. It was really my Christian faith being challenged that caused me to see David as a person, to say his name, to start to pray for him, to realize I had to move beyond just forgiving him and wiping him off my hands to engaging with him. She started by writing her own letter to Nancy's killer in 2012. I didn't even think about the outcome as I was writing it.

I just knew that I had to. And I thought, oh my gosh, I have been sitting back for decades waiting for this young man to apologize to me. I'm going to go first. I'm going to say, I forgave you a long time ago. And if you want me to come see you, I will. Several weeks later, an envelope landed in her work mailbox. This is the envelope. There's this name. Well, that must have stopped you in your tracks. Oh, I froze. To know it's his name and that's his handwriting. Right. And my heart started hammering because I thought this is it. She couldn't open it just then. She waited 48 hours, then passed it to Mark Osler. And I opened it. It's 15, 18 pages. And it was remarkable.

He said it's good. And I just sank down in the chair beside him and in relief. The letter contained the one piece of information she had been waiting more than two decades for. I think the time has come for me to drop the charade and finally be honest. I am guilty of killing your sister Nancy and her husband Richard. I also want to take this opportunity to express my deepest condolences and apologize to you. And I started to cry. I never thought I would receive that.

And to have it was such a burden lifted. It was just like this rock being lifted off of me. For him to understand the magnitude of what he took and to own it. Then the man who murdered her sister agreed to meet her face to face. Five months later, Jean made the two-hour drive to Pontiac Prison. Well, at first it was kind of a shock. The last time I had seen him,

he was the skinniest 16-year-old boy. The person I saw walking through the door was a 40-year-old man. So I mentioned on one of our visits... It would be the first of dozens of visits. This video, taken by a newspaper photographer, captured one of their more mundane conversations. She's written about those experiences in a recent book called Change of Heart. written about those experiences in a recent book called Change of Heart.

What do you think of the book? I actually wrote you a letter. I don't know if you got it. Not yet. Has he ever told you what happened that night? Oh, the first thing he wanted to do was to tell me. This is his explanation. He went to do a burglary, wanted to wait for the homeowners to come home, wanted to take their wallets and their car, and they saw him.

And that's when he said, I knew I just, I had to finish it. I had to finish it. Yeah. And when he said that word, it, I thought in that first meeting, oh my God, that it you're talking about is my sister and her husband. And that's been part of the reward and the blessing of this journey of these visits with him is having my sister and her husband transformed from an it to these people. In June of 2012, a few months before Jean's letter to Biro arrived, there was a major U.S. Supreme Court decision deeming mandatory life sentences for juveniles as cruel and unusual punishment. That means that David Biro could qualify for a reduced sentence or even be released. Jean Bishop is now advocating that her sister's killer get a chance at a second chance. He methodically gunned down two people in your family even though he knew your sister was pregnant and she was begging for her life. He just doesn't strike me, Jean, with all due respect, as the poster child for second chances. Does he deserve another chance? Yes,

I think he does. Why? Because I think everyone does. I think that it's utter hubris for us to say to any human being, this one thing you did was so bad that we're going to freeze it in time forever. All you will ever be is killer, and our punishment for you will be endless until you die. But, as you might imagine, not everyone agrees. It all boils down to one thing. Are there some people for whom permanent separation from the rest of society is sadly necessary? Is David Barrow that person? Yes, he is. Did you ever think that you would be here discussing the possibility of him being re-sentenced and possibly seeing the light of day again?

No, it never occurred to us. It's November 5th, 2015, almost 24 years to the day from when David Biro went on trial for the Langer murders. And Nancy's sister, Jennifer, and mother, Joyce, are back at the same courthouse as a legal hurdle to Biro's case is argued. I think it's an exercise in futility myself. But if he's going to go down there, I'm going to go down there. Are both sides ready to proceed? All right, you may proceed with your argument. Biro, who was not in court, has denied our requests for an interview.

As you stated, Your Honor, this... The Supreme Court ruling guarantees that David Biro will be resentenced for the two mandatory murder convictions, which means he could get a reduced sentence, be released, or it could stay exactly the same, life in prison. It's only mandatory sentences that have been struck down by the Supreme Court. Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Biro. There is one legal hitch. Because the third sentence for the murder of Nancy's unborn child was not a mandatory life term, it could impact the judge's decision on resentencing. So a discretionary sentence like the one that David got for killing the baby on purpose,

that could still be in place no matter what happens to the other sentence. It cannot be said that the sentencing... Vero could be resentenced as early as next year. So as we sit here today, do you think that he should be released? I don't know. I've never seen his prison record. I've never read any psychological evaluations of him, either as a 16-year- old or as a 42 year old

there is so much that I need to know and there's a lot more she wants David Biro to know no matter what the outcome of his case I mean one of the most rewarding things about visiting him and telling these stories about Nancy and Richard he gets to know her better and And as he knows her better, he says, you know, the more I know, the worse I feel about what I did. Do you want him to feel worse? I do want him to feel bad about what he did. And then that imposes an obligation on him to do good,

no matter where he is, whether he's in prison or out. To my last breath, will he ever get that? Every day, Joyce is reminded of the loss of Nancy and Richard. After the murders, she and her husband moved into that townhouse. I think that being here almost makes me feel like, well, Nancy and Richard were here, and that's nice too. I take comfort in that, that she was here. Joyce says she cannot forgive because she cannot forget. You know, if he said, forgive me, would I say, are you kidding? I come to the part in the Lord's Prayer where it says,

and forgive me my sins as I forgive those whose sins it gives me. I don't say the second part. I don't forgive. Not that one. Would you be afraid for your safety if David Vero was out? Clearly. Clearly. Yes.

The general public is in danger. He has not gotten any better. He's still manipulative. He never confessed or apologized, admitted to the crime until the Supreme Court ruling. And you don't see that as a coincidence. You see that as calculation. Absolute, like everything else he does. You know, there's a cost to stepping out like this. I know that it has to hurt to all of a sudden feel that we're not on the same side anymore, in a sense. And that has made keeping a promise made a long time ago challenging, but not

impossible. It was the first time I saw her after Nancy and Richard were killed. As we were holding on to each other, I remember saying to Jean, were killed. As we were holding on to each other, I remember saying to Jean, it'll never be just the two of us. It'll always be the three of us. And it still is? It still is. We agree to disagree. We love each other deeply. And I'm proud of my family. And I know that they are proud of me. Despite their ideological differences, Joy says her daughters have found their own way to work through them. The girls can have different opinions without being, you know, broken up about it. Not everybody is the same.

We all think differently, but we're all family and we all love each other. We're all family and we all love each other. Every Palm Sunday after we process up that aisle and we go up into the choir loft, I'm looking at that procession of children, and every time I do that, I cry. It's been said there is no one or right way to grieve. It seems the same is true for healing. If he has to spend the rest of his life in prison, I'll still be making that drive down I-55. I'll still be buzzed through that door. I'll still sit down and visit with him. I'm not telling you this is this formula you have to follow. I'm saying that I have to forgive. I'm blind but now I see. David Biro is one of approximately 80 offenders convicted as juveniles awaiting resentencing in Illinois.

Across the country, more than 1,000 offenders may qualify for resentencing under the Supreme Court ruling. Do you believe David Biro should get a chance at freedom? Chat now with correspondent Maureen Maher on Twitter. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.