48 Hours - The Killing of Daniel Green

Episode Date: July 26, 2020

A California man shot dead in his home — his ex-wife admits she pulled the trigger. Did a photo posted on social media lead to the man's death? "48 Hours" correspondent Erin Moriarty reports.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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ConstantContact.ca Erica Sandoval is the person that you could meet on the street and say, wow, she seems like a really nice person. She had the type of upbringing that millions of people have had before. She dated. She fell in love. She was so into Daniel. The first time she spoke about him, she was just like, oh, the color of his eyes,

and that he was so nice to her. She was just in heaven. All Daniel truly wanted was a family. That's all he ever wanted, and that's what he was trying to achieve with Erica. My name is Misty Gray, and I am Daniel's little sister. My name is Matthew Green, and I am Daniel's identical twin brother. Four minutes, give or take,

you know. Erica always wanted to just have a stable relationship, have children. They weren't together very long before they got married. When everything was going the way they should be in her eyes, she was pleasant to be around. It's only when things didn't go her way that she became nasty and things got ugly between the two of them. And from what I saw, the bad was really bad. She had cut up the couch and she had cut up the bed springs

and stabbed holes in the wall, and, you know, taken a bottle of, like, pancake syrup and just spread it all over the carpet. Just a ridiculous amount of vandalism. It was a very toxic relationship. People should absolutely know and understand that it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you're five foot or six foot, you can be a victim of domestic violence. Matt, did you ever tell Daniel to leave? Of course. A lot? A lot, yeah. He knew it was bad. People don't change. She's not going to change. That's not what happens. Daniel loved being a cop. He loved getting out into the community and making a difference

so on the day of the incident Daniel was supposed to come into work right before me when I got to the police station I asked the lieutenant where Daniel was you get this gut feeling that

something's wrong, that something bad was happening. Matt calls me, and I never heard Matt's voice like this. And he says, hey. And I said, what's going on? And he can't really get it out like I I couldn't say anything it was like there were no words

and I said you knew I said just tell me Daniel's okay just tell me he's okay and Matt said I can't. Субтитры создавал DimaTorzok On February 6, 2015, in the mid-afternoon, time stood still in Tulare County. When we in the law enforcement community came to find out that Daniel Green was executed that afternoon in the sanctity and privacy of his own home. District Attorney Tim Ward says police officer Daniel Green was ambushed at a moment when he was most vulnerable. He was executed. Here's a man who was literally on the toilet when he was shot. Green was 31 years old and an 11-year veteran of the Exeter Police Department.

He was murdered at his home in Goshen, part of Tulare County, a bucolic area of Central California lined with farmland and orchards. This crime, when this happened, really ripped apart not only this small town that he was from and was a police officer in, but kind of the law enforcement community as well. The killer fired four bullets at Green. The fatal shot hitting him in the forehead. He was found lying on his back in the bathtub where he had stumbled. Later that afternoon, when Daniel didn't report to work, an Exeter police supervisor became concerned. And one of his fellow officers is the one that discovered him that day.

No neighbors heard the shots or called 911. No eyewitnesses saw the killer enter or leave the house. And the killer fled with a murder weapon. So with one bullet fired directly into Daniel's forehead, investigators had to consider the possibility that this was a professional hit. Hours into the investigation, detectives were just piecing together the facts. piecing together the facts. They knew Daniel Green was at that point divorced and living alone, and that he had had a tumultuous relationship with his ex-wife Erica Sandoval. But she had rushed to the scene after a friend texted her and was teary-eyed when she spoke with police. She denied seeing Daniel that day. If it had been years earlier, I think I would have automatically assumed it was

her, but we'd just seen them together, you know, a month before, and it didn't seem like there was any tension. So I just didn't know. I didn't know what had happened. Matt Green, Daniel's identical twin brother, and their younger sister, Misty Gray. I was confused. I didn't know what to think. ...were overcome and terrified. I actually slept next to a gun because I didn't know if it was work-related. I just didn't know. Ever since that initial shock, Misty says

she's struggled to cope with her new reality. We will never be the same. Never. My life will forever be changed by this. That's just how it is now. Daniel, Misty, and Matt had grown up in nearby Porterville, California. We were kind of like a team. It was the three of us against the world type of thing.

As teens, the Green Boys found their calling when Daniel became friendly with a local cop. Daniel took a shining to him. It was probably about the age of 14 that he did decide that he wanted to be a police officer. Matt is now a lawyer, but like Daniel, he also started out as a police officer. I always thought it was neat that my big brothers, who are twins, were both police officers at the same time. And I actually have the same photo of the two of them. And I cherish it. Daniel Green settled into his job where he became known as a hard-nosed,

by-the-book cop. But off the job, Daniel was more of a free spirit. He even joined a local motorcycle club that calls itself Team Flatline. That's a little odd name for a motorcycle club, isn't it? Yeah. It's just showing that Team Flatline, you're going to ride until you go, until you flatline. It's the love of riding. Club member James Bonds. Yes, you heard it right, James Bonds. Yes, you heard it right.

James Bonds grew close to Daniel. So you and Daniel bonded over motorcycles, right? What is that? What is it that you love? It's a freedom. It's an escape. Some people go hunting. Some people go fishing

some people drink but when you're on a bike you're just free those who knew Daniel Green say he enjoyed the fast lane on a bike and also when he was dating how would you describe the women that Daniel would date did he date a lot growing up? I'll let you take that one. That's yours, yes. Thanks for that. Daniel liked to dates. I don't know if he liked the attention, but he definitely liked to date.

That's for sure. There was a period of probably two years where every family functioned. There was someone new. And we were getting together pretty regularly. Yeah, we were. We were getting together a lot. At the end of 2009, Daniel met Erica Sandoval. end of 2009, Daniel met Erica Sandoval, and his revolving door of girlfriends stopped. I think he loved her. In his way, he wanted the family. He wanted so desperately to have a family. Matt was married. By then, I was married, and he was the only one that was not. Erica became part of Daniel's family, but she was about to turn his world upside down. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee

when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military, and when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. The scary cult classic was set in the Chicago housing project. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror.

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with a 48-hour plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. Matt Green says he doesn't remember much about how Daniel met Erica Sandoval, but he does recall his brother being excited about what was then a new relationship. He was, you know, infatuated with her. It's like a little girl, like, you know, when they get candy, they get super excited. Erica's friend, Angelica Ramirez, says there's no doubt Erica, at least initially, felt the same way about Daniel. She was so into Daniel. Was she? She was.

Erica was from a close-knit, middle-class family from Southern California who had moved to Visalia during her high school years. who had moved to Visalia during her high school years. Erica's brother, David Sandoval, says that as the only daughter in the family, Erica was made to feel special. We spoiled her in every kind of way. I mean, she was the only girl. She was the princess. When she turned 15 years old, her family threw her a party, a traditional quinceañera. Erica's whole life was in front of her. She wanted to find the right guy and then obviously start having a family. Less than a year after Daniel and Erica met, they surprised their friends and family

by getting married in Las Vegas. Daniel was 26 years old, Erica 23. I remember getting a text message at 10 o'clock at night with a picture of a marriage license in Vegas. With a picture of her marriage license in Vegas. A few weeks later, Erica's family threw her a wedding reception. And Erica did it up big, complete with a wedding gown. It was a happy time. I think that's what she wanted. And that's what he wanted at the time.

Daniel's motorcycle buddy, Herb Adami, attended, even though he was no fan of Erica's. A few things happened before they even actually got married. And I pulled Daniel aside and I said, dude, don't marry this chick. Tell me why. What happened that made you say that? It was all the incidents at the house. It was all the incidents at the house. Herb says Daniel had told him the story about Erica cutting up the furniture with a razor blade. Matt had seen that damage firsthand, and both he and Misty on separate occasions said they had heard Daniel crying after Erica laced into him. It devastated me to hear my brother crying

and to hear the way that she was talking to him. It broke my heart. Erica was trying to create a rift in the family between us. To Misty and Matt, it all felt far too familiar. The reason the Green siblings were so close, they say, is because they grew up in a troubled home with an abusive stepfather. Alcohol. Drugs, alcohol, abuse, stuff like that.

Were any of you abused? Just physical abuse, probably, and some neglect and stuff. Would your stepfather hit you? Yeah. With his hand or with... With belts, boards, I guess whatever was laying around. Matt and Misty's stepfather had a long criminal record that included arrests for assault, domestic violence, and driving under the influence.

The Green Boys often took the brunt for Misty, who was three years younger. Matthew and Daniel always protected me. They would get in between my stepdad trying to physically harm us. And when I would get scared, I would go crawl in bed with my brothers. When I would get scared, I would go crawl in bed with my brothers. Their mother at one point did get a restraining order against their stepfather, who is now dead. The domestic abuse that Matt and Misty saw as children seemed to be repeating itself with Daniel and Erica. In the case of my brother, he was the one constantly being controlled and isolated and verbally and emotionally abused. As an officer, he would probably run into women who were being abused. Would he not recognize himself in that same

situation? I think he did. He just probably felt like he had nothing he could do about it, that he was maybe trapped in a cycle. I think men don't come forward for many of the same reasons that women don't come forward when they are experiencing domestic violence. Katie Meter is chief executive of Tulare Family Services, and she says she recently expanded the Visalia Women's Shelter to include rooms for the men who were fleeing the abuse of their female partners.

Erica would cut up mattresses and couches. Is that domestic abuse? Absolutely. Property damage is very common. Female victims, they will often describe, well, my partner never hit me, but he did punch a hole in the wall. And so there's this threat of physical violence. If I can do this to your property, if I can do this to the things that you love, what can I do to you? But Angelica Ramirez says Erica told her that Daniel was the abuser.

She would tell me constantly that he would grab her and choke her. She told me he choked her and that she felt like she was going to pass out. The problems in Daniel and Erica's marriage came to a head in February 2011. Neighbor Josh Miller witnessed the confrontation. She was cussing at him and this and that. It sounded like she was like trying to get him to put hands on her. But he knew as an officer, you're not going to do that because he's not going to risk his career. At that point, he's all just called, call the cops, Josh, call the cops. And I dialed 911. The police came and both Daniel and Erica were arrested for domestic abuse.

No charges were filed against either of them. But that was the last straw for both. Divorce papers were filed, and the marriage was officially over in January 2012, a little more than a year after it began. I remember thinking he escaped this without, you know, anything terrible happening, and that maybe he could get peace and be happy. But then came news that Erica was pregnant with Daniel's child.

I was like, geez, he's stuck with her for 18 years. The marriage of Daniel Green and his wife, Erica Sandoval, was over. But not the relationship. Just months after the divorce, Erica began telling close friends, like Angelica Ramirez, that she was pregnant with Dan's baby. It was the spring of 2012. And I was mad. You were. That's the one thing I told her not to do. And how did she feel about having a baby?

I think she had mixed emotions. But those mixed emotions did not stop Erica from moving back in with Daniel. His siblings, Matt and Misty, were apprehensive, but hoped for the best. When she got pregnant with Aiden, Matt and I tried again. We're going to put all of the past behind us. We're going to try and bring her into our family and see what happens. But a big part of Daniel's life was riding his motorcycle. And that did not sit well with Erica. She hated that motorcycle. Yep. Despised it. You know, he'd get on his bike and he'd take off and, you know, she couldn't sit next to him in the passenger seat

yelling at him. Arguments about the motorcycle came to a head one day when Daniel was out riding with his friend Mark Cortez. They reached this busy intersection and Cortez says he was shocked when he watched Daniel blow right through a red light. So we stopped there, and I'm like, hey, what's going on, man? Daniel told Cortez that his brakes had failed. He grabbed both hands, and he just grabbed all the wires, and he just pulled them out. It was all the wires were all cut up, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is crazy. were all cut up. And I'm like, oh my goodness, this is crazy. Daniel told Cortez that he had no doubt who had cut them. He had no question it was Erica. Yeah.

Erica denied she had cut the brake lines, telling a friend she had just snipped wires. telling a friend she had just snipped wires. It was a harrowing incident, but Daniel never reported it to the police and initially didn't even tell his siblings. He hid a lot of the stuff that was going on. I think he knew that it would upset us. No one quite knows why, but Daniel continued to live with Erica,

and on January 5, 2013, their son Aiden was born. I don't have any doubt that the day his son was born was the happiest day of his life. Daniel, Erica, and the baby all lived in his home in Goshen, and outwardly, it seemed a happy time. There were times where everything was good. They were happy. He was just a proud father. It changed him. Daniel even sold his beloved motorcycle. Him having a kid was the best thing for him. On his Facebook, every day it was a picture of his

kid. That was his life. That was his pride and joy. But Facebook is not real life. And behind closed doors, the tension was mounting. In June of 2013, about six months after Aiden was born, Daniel asked Erica to move out. She did, but she took Aiden with her. Aiden's absence shook Daniel, but made him determined to fight for custody. to fight for custody. The couple began to engage in a war of words.

Nasty and contentious texts between Daniel and Erica became part of the court record. Dan Chambers is Erica's lawyer. There's a lot of bitterness and anger throughout these text messages, no question about it. I mean, Daniel does call Erica some very bad names in here, and Erica does the same. And yet, inexplicably, no matter how bad it got, the draw was still there, and the couple continued to spend an occasional night together. We know that children who are raised in homes where there's been domestic violence or other abuse are much more likely to end up in these types of relationships going

forward. Family Services Chief Katie Meter. You will model relationships that have been modeled for you. One night in the fall of 2014, when the couple was once again sleeping together, Daniel told friends he got the shock of his life when he awoke to find Erica pointing a gun to his head. He told you that she woke up, dreamed that he had been with another woman and held a gun to his head. What did she say to him at that point? She said that she was going to kill him. If he left her? Yeah, or if he cheated on her. Daniel and Erica went their separate ways yet again, but came together in January 2015 to celebrate Aiden's second birthday with a family party. Matt and Misty were watching them closely.

It was one month before Daniel's murder. We thought that Daniel and Erica were getting back together. Before we all left, Daniel actually kissed her on the cheek. And I was like, yep, it's going to happen. Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe they're finally growing up and it's okay. And as long as everybody's happy, that's all that matters. But then, weeks later, Daniel told friends he was dating a new woman.

I think he probably expressed that this was somebody that was going to be around, you know, maybe forever. You think that really is what set everything off? I do. I truly thought one day that she was going to kill him. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still have heard it.

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She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informants Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery Plus. Thank you. The morning of February 6, 2015, Daniel Green dropped off his son Aiden with Erica Sandoval's mother and then went to the gym. turned home to Larry District Attorney Tim Ward says Daniel was shot dead with bullet wounds to his hand, his chest, neck, and forehead. This was not anything other than a cold-blooded calculated execution. The next day, sheriff deputies, aware of the toxic relationship Daniel had had with his ex-wife Erica, brought her in for questioning. And her stories started to shift. There are recorded interviews where different statements are given. Erica had said she hadn't been inside Daniel's house in weeks.

But investigators told her that a neighbor's surveillance camera told a different story. The video that is out there shows a female enter into that home. Investigators were not able to ID the woman in this video, but they tricked Erica, telling her they knew it was her. tricked Erica, telling her they knew it was her. Detectives placed Erica under arrest, and they say she confessed and led them to an empty lot where they recovered the murder weapon, a CAR 9mm gun belonging to her former husband. The evidence against Erica seemed overwhelming, but nearly five years passed

before her first-degree murder trial finally begins on October 1st, 2019. Counsel, are you ready? I am. Assistant District Attorney David Alavesos tells jurors Erica killed Daniel one week after he posted this Instagram photo featuring his new 20-year-old girlfriend, Brenda Vela. Is it possible that Daniel Gray would still be alive if he had never posted that picture on social media? That's an impossible question, but you wonder. It's such a tragedy that we'll never know.

You know, we'll never know. But it does point to motive, and Alaveso shows jurors what was found in Erica's purse when she was booked. A yellow sticky note with Brenda Vela's name and birth year. Erica also bombarded Daniel

with 167 phone calls in the days leading up to the murder. I think when Erica found out that the girl was hanging out with her son and that kind of made her snap. Yet when it's his turn, defense attorney Dan Chambers shifts the spotlight away from Erica to Daniel Green himself and in essence puts the dead police officer on trial for the way he treated his ex-wife. And at the end of the day, he was abusive. Chambers says Daniel Green would obsessively record their verbal battles,

like this one, when the couple is fighting over Aiden, who was a baby at that point. Give him back to me, Daniel. Don't touch me. You're going to f*** me, right? Don't hit me. Okay, all right. You're going to jail. But only one person can really talk about what happened the day Daniel was murdered. about what happened the day Daniel was murdered.

And so, Chambers takes an extraordinary and risky step and puts Erica on the stand. It was a collective decision, and it wasn't an easy decision. At that point, we were arguing a lot. In direct testimony, Erica begins with a litany of stories about the abuse she claimed she suffered from Daniel over the years. He grabbed me by the shirt, my shirt, and he started shaking me back and forth. And as he was yelling at my face, shut the up. He's like, you know, I could kill you and make it look like an accident. That's when, um, when he, uh, grabbed me from my ponytail, he slammed my head up in the

dashboard while I was holding Aiden. There was a witness to that incident, but Erica did not call police then and says she rarely reported abuse because Daniel was a cop. It appears now that the objective of some of this is to murder his memory. And as horrible as the relationship was,

Erica admits that she and Daniel continued to have sex. Again, she blames Daniel. He would allow me extra time with Eden in order to go over and do a sexual act with him. So why did you feel like you had to do those things? I preferred a happy Daniel as opposed to an angry Daniel. She testifies that two even had phone sex on February 5th, 2015. Just one day later, she tells jurors, she showed up at Daniel's house

to just snoop around. Saw the kitchen window and I figured I'd try to see if it was open. And so I took off the screen and I wedged it and it was open. Moving through the house, Erica says she grabbed two of Daniel's guns. Erica spotted Daniel's open safe and she found what she says were two photos depicting child pornography. The first picture I saw, it was like a girl. She looked to be maybe like 12, 13, next to a bed. Her story takes the prosecution by surprise. Erica had never mentioned the photos in any of

her previous statements. That was the very first time that we ever had even heard that or anything close to that. Ward says no such photos were found, but Erica insists she saw them and left them in the safe. watching this kind of stuff around my son. What's the next thing you remember doing? I heard his truck. That's when Erica says she ducked into Aiden's closet, where she had her ex-husband's two loaded guns. Do you believe Erica's story?

Hear how Erica spent the day after she shot her ex-husband on Facebook at 48 Hours. One month into her trial, Erica Sandoval explains for the first time publicly how and why she killed her ex-husband, Daniel Green. She tells jurors she was obsessed with fears that Daniel may have been abusing their son. I was thinking about Aiden. I don't know if he was doing stuff to Aiden, maybe. Erica explains how she hurried into her son's bedroom closet when she heard Daniel come home that afternoon. And I heard him coming down the hallway, passing by the room. I was scared. I didn't know where he was going. When Daniel was in the bathroom, Erica says, she snapped and did the unthinkable.

I stepped out of the closet and I stepped out of Aiden's room and I stood right there in front of Daniel. He was in the toilet. As soon as he saw me, he said, I'm going to f***ing kill you. And he started

getting up. As soon as he started raising my arm, then he shot. How many times? I didn't know how many times I shot, but then I shot. It's such a shocking admission that her attorney, Dan Chambers,

tries his best to take some of the edge off. Do you regret what you did? Of course I regret it. Every day. I regret it every day. As it comes to you. My son. My family. In 2011, you didn't mention anything about recording. Erica sticks to her story, even when cross-examined by Assistant District Attorney David Alavesos,

who clearly doubts her claim about finding photos of child porn. You know they're not in the report, so you just expected them to magically show up. No, I advised my attorney as to what I saw. And nobody else? No, just my attorney. Erica says she deliberately didn't tell investigators. I didn't trust them. They've never given me a reason to trust them.

Daniel always told me how they always had each other's backs. She's going to come up with whatever narrative she thinks will work at getting her off. The question hangs over the trial. Did those child porn photos actually exist? Or is Erica lying to make her actions more understandable to the jury? Alavesos has an answer. That's a disgusting lie. To make you feel Daniel's not worth a murder charge. To defile him as a human being. That is the sole purpose of it. But Chambers counters that Daniel had hundreds of pornographic videos and photos of adults on

his phone and computers. Chambers also says there were thousands of unknown images that were somehow deleted from Daniel's cell phone in the years before he was killed. 17,000 images deleted. Why? What were they? Why would somebody need to delete that many photographs? And you asked why what? But the more important images, according to the prosecutor, are the ones Erica would rather forget.

He forces her to look at photos of Daniel after she shot him. One of your shots, people seven, went right through Daniel's neck. Yes. It's right up Daniel's neck. Yes. It's right up there. Look at it. Yes. After nearly two months, the attorneys make their final arguments. Alavesos tells the jurors that Erica was the real abuser.

And he plays more audio and sometimes video recordings that Daniel made. Erica, leave me alone. Can you get ready for work? No, you need to chill. I didn't do anything to you. You're bothering me now. I have to get ready for work. No part of that is too difficult for you to understand. You don't have to yell at me. I'm right here. Okay, leave me alone. Go. Go away.

So let me get this straight. The prosecutor's argument is that this... And in his closing, Dan Chambers puts the blame on both Erica and Daniel, tied together, he says, by a traumatic bond that is difficult to understand. Both are victims and both are aggressors. On November 20th, 2019, the case finally goes to the jurors. If they find Erica guilty of murder in the first degree, lying in wait, she could get the death penalty. Do you, either one of you, worry that there might be one juror? My biggest fear is that she won't pay for what she's done. The jurors deliberate for nearly four days before telling Judge Joseph Kalashian they can deliberate no more.

I am going to declare mistrial. A mistrial. The jury deadlocked at 11 to 1, with one single juror refusing to convict Erica of murder in the first degree. These three jurors agreed to discuss that holdout juror. It became evident that day after day, hour after hour, that she wasn't going to waver. And then the reality of a hung jury started to sink in. And she just never gave much reasoning behind why she felt the way she did. They say the holdout's position even led to a screaming match between two jurors. Tensions just got high and they started yelling at each other and they were getting emotionally involved. As for Erica's allegations that Daniel Green possessed child pornography photos. There was never any pictures that we saw.

You can tell she obviously lied on the stand and I think a lot of the trial was spent by the defense not defending her but rather attacking Daniel. I think every juror had empathy for her they also had empathy for him we saw just how vindictive or forceful that she was towards him. And why is she still staying there? Why is he still staying there? As for the defense, Dan Chambers says he feels good about the outcome. In the defense world, a hung jury is always considered a win because it means you get to live to fight another day. But Chambers says Erica is struggling with the reality

that she'll need to sit through yet another murder trial. Right now she's got to process a lot of emotions. She's kind of a whipsaw of emotions. Daniel's sister Misty and his identical twin Matt declined to talk about the mistrial. They are still grappling with the loss of their brother. It's devastating. There's a hole that'll never be filled. It'll never heal, ever. The siblings do, however, have at least one reminder of Daniel that brings them joy.

His son, Aiden, now seven years old. Erica's parental rights have been terminated, and Matt and his wife decided to adopt the child. You're raising Daniel's son. Was that a tough decision? No, not at all. The least that I could do is make sure that he knew how much his father loved him. Erica has a new attorney, a public defender.

Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly? Introducing the best idea yet. A brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. And the bold risk takers who brought them to life. Like did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time,

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It's just the best idea yet. You labeled the president a danger to the republic. Specifically, how how is there racial animosity within the force itself how do we embrace this moment and turn it into real change this moment is everything If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey.