48 Hours - The Money Trail

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

In November 2000, bank manager and single mother Michelle Renee was in her Vista, California, home with her seven-year-old daughter Breea, when three masked gunmen broke into the house. The gunmen held them captive overnight, and in the morning strapped dynamite onto their backs. Breea was shoved into a closet, while Michelle was ordered to rob the bank where she worked. She obeyed, and the next morning she cleaned out the bank vault and gave the gunmen a duffel bag containing $360,000. Police and FBI investigation soon apprehended four suspects: Christopher Butler, Lisa Ramirez, Christopher Huggins, and Robert Ortiz. “48 Hours" correspondent Susan Spencer reports. This classic "48 Hours" episode last aired on 7/23/2010. Watch all-new episodes of “48 Hours” on Saturdays, and stream on demand on Paramount+.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals with more at it all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and even your overall well-being.

And you can enjoy Audible anytime while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial, and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. [♪upbeat music playing- no dialogue- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this part of the video- no audio for this We had gotten home right around 6.30, the sun was setting, and we were getting ready to go into the house and make homemade pizzas. I was a single mother and my daughter loved when we got to spend time together. We decided to sit down on the couch and play some Game Boy to unwind from the day. And then everything was completely shattered in one blink of an eye.

The back door to our house just came crashing in with a sound that is completely indescribable. There were three men all dressed in black and masked, rushing towards us, spot style, in a line. They grabbed us, threw us to the floor. One man was on my back, guns to my head, and the duct tape started to unroll and rip. My daughter was out of sight, couldn't hear her, didn't know what was going on, and I was screaming for her life. There's three of them.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing I could have done to protect her. I'm Michelle Renee, and I was kidnapped and held hostage along with my seven-year-old daughter. We were held for 14 hours all night long till the next morning when it was time to, as they said, go to work. That meant go rob the bank on that day. They duct taped dynamite to our backs. He showed us a device that he said was a detonation device. He said, if you don't do everything perfect, your daughter will blow up first.

You will blow up next. So don't screw this up. And then I became a bank robber. Show me the money. Tonight's 48 Hours Mystery. I start feeling anxiety when I'm approaching the house. It was here at this hillside home in Vista, California, where Michelle Renee once felt happiest. I lived in my dream house pretty much.

It was up on top of a hill, it was overlooking the ocean. She was 35, a divorced single mother, raising her daughter, Bria, and working full-time as a bank manager. I felt very, very safe. I felt like we were far away from everything. Until that awful night nine years ago when the three masked men charged through her back door. And everything was slow motion in that

moment. It was like it wasn't real. Oh my god my daughter. They pointed their guns at Michelle and Bria. I was just begging for her life. Please don't hurt her. Please don't hurt her. I heard my daughter say are you gonna kill my mommy and are you gonna kill me and they said no not if your mommy does everything that we tell her to do. This video was shot by the FBI after the break-in. They said, do you know why we're here? I said, no, I have nothing. I mean, you know, we don't have anything. Why are you here?

But it turns out this was not just some random crime. We've been following you for weeks. We know everything about you. We know you have a roommate We know everything about you. We know you have a roommate when she's coming home. And most important of all, they knew where she worked. We know you're the bank manager. That's why we're here, because you're going to get us the money

out of the vault of that bank or you're going to die. The intruders turned off all the lights, duct-taped Michelle and Bria's wrists and ankles, and then dumped them on the couch. They threatened us all night long. Okay. I was counting the minutes to the end of my life. At 11 p.m., Michelle's roommate, Kimbra, came home. The gunman overpowered her, duct taped her too, and dragged her over to Michelle.

At that point, they were really, really graphic with their sexual talks. Super, super bad. Michelle says it was always clear which of the three men was in charge. He was sort of giving the orders and he was really in control and he was the one with the walkie talkie radio. At one point Michelle heard a female voice over the walkie talkie. Oh my gosh. She says she recognized it immediately.

It just clicked. It belonged to a customer who had been in the bank with her boyfriend earlier in the day. Okay Michelle, stay calm, just breathe, just you know, stay calm. And when a light briefly was turned on, she got a glimpse of the ringleader. I knew those eyes the second I could see them. She says she knew the man behind the mask was the boyfriend. I think I know who these people are. And it just clicked in that I started paying attention

to like everything. The next morning, the gunmen strapped the sticks of dynamite to their hostages. If I push the button, all three of you disintegrate. If you try to take it off yourself, you're the only one that's gonna blow. Then they tied up Michelle's roommate, shoved her down on the bed. They had duct taped her eyes, her mouth, her hands, her feet. And pushed Bria into a closet. The weight of their lives was enormous for me.

Michelle was given a chance to say goodbye to her daughter. She prayed not the last. I just told her she was everything, everything I'd ever wanted, that she was perfect and that we're a team. And she said, just be brave, Mommy. She was telling you to be brave? Oh, yeah. She's only seven years old. Seven.

She's like, I know you're coming back, Mommy. I know you're going to come back. Michelle recalled the ringleader was crouched behind the driver's seat, aiming a gun right at her back as she drove to work, the dynamite hidden under her jacket. Every step I took with that dynamite was like a tick of a bomb. Every second. I can't mess up. I can't make one wrong turn in my car. I've got to do everything right if we have any chance of saving anybody's lives. The gunman had warned her they would be

watching everything. Don't make any phone calls. Do not call the police. None of it. When she got to the bank, Michelle parked in her usual spot. She came into the branch and she was very stoic, just off center. Loretta Myers was already at work when a subdued Michelle walked into the bank. It just wasn't like her. She's a vivacious, bubbly, outgoing kind of a person.

Michelle says she was trying to act normal, but counting the minutes till the money was delivered. I knew what I had to do, and that's all I could think about. At 8.50, an armored truck finally arrived. And all the money is now in the vault. That's your cue. And that's the cue. I grabbed my briefcase. That's your cue. And that's the cue.

I grabbed my briefcase. That was odd. I went to the vault. It was extremely odd. Never have I ever seen anybody take anything other than a pen and keys into the vault, never. For security, the bank required two people be in the vault to take out any money. So Michelle had to ask one of the tellers to join her.

She has no idea anything's wrong. No idea whatsoever that anything's wrong. Once inside, Michelle told her what had happened. She started panicking and going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. She couldn't speak. And I lifted up my shirt and I said, look God, oh my God, oh my God, she couldn't speak. And I lifted up my shirt and I said, look what's on my back. I'm gonna blow up if I'm not out of here in five minutes.

You need to help me. I have to rob the bank. Michelle took a duffel bag out of her briefcase. I just remember my hand reaching for the money and stuffing the duffel bag. And within minutes, she cleaned out the vault. Do not call the police if you call the police, we're dead. She came out of the vault with her satchel

and kind of like an odd look on her face. And she told me she had an appointment to go to and she briskly walked out of the branch. Just after nine, as the bank opened, Michelle walked out with $360,000. I robbed a bank to save our lives. The gunman directed her to a nearby apartment complex. He let me out of the Jeep.

I was to walk back to where my Jeep would be waiting, and then I was to go straight home. And then he took off with the money, leaving her with dynamite still taped to her back. Tick. Tick. Is this going to be the second that I'm going to blow up? Is this going to be the step that's

going to end my daughter's life. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harbored a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn and it harboured a deep dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still have urged it. It just happens to all of them. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn.

When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn Trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. You don't believe in ghosts?

I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more.

Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. I thought for sure once they get what they want, once they get the money, we're dead. They don't want witnesses.

Terrified and with sticks of dynamite cutting into her back... I didn't know what I would find when I got home. If I made it home. Michelle Renee raced back to the house. All I knew was that's where my daughter was. Nothing else mattered. All I could think of was getting back to her. She found Kimbra on the bed and Bria in the closet right where she'd left her. I was so excited

I was like someone's coming back. It's my mom. I think it's my mom and I was like, okay It's over It's over because if my mom's back they're gone I just wanted to grab her and never, never, ever let go of her. I just wanted to hold her. Hold her, she did. I was crouched down. I was just right in front of her, holding her,

getting the tape off of her. It hit me right then. Oh my gosh. I've got dynamite on my back. I've got dynamite on my back. I've got dynamite on my back still. But Kimbra and Bria's dynamite was gone. Kimbra said one of the men just ripped it off. Later, police took these photos to illustrate what happened.

And I was like, okay, get it off of me, get it off of me, and she did. Kimbra dashed outside and put the dynamite on the retaining wall. Then all three ran up the hill to the nearest neighbor. That security gate. Exactly. That's where you went?

The gate was closed, and so we began pushing the button frantically and saying, please let us in, please let us in. We've been kidnapped, we've been held hostage all night long. Let us in, let us in. I saw them down there. Even from here I could tell they were really distraught. Rick Brown never will forget that morning. I opened the gate, went down the hill real fast, helped them up to the house.

They were in shock, you know, especially Kim. Michelle was a little bit more composed. And the little girl was really composed. It was amazing. Police, the FBI, and the bomb squad arrived and quickly determined that the dynamite that had so terrified Michelle was fake. Here it is. It's pretty obvious when you really look at it that this is nothing more than some painted wooden dowels and a few bits of colored wire and it's absolutely harmless. Investigators then turned their attention to Michelle, questioning her for several hours. And I'm saying stuff like, I know who did this.

Michelle told them she was sure her captor was a customer, the same man who had been in the bank just hours before the robbery. You honestly could be absolutely sure of this looking at his eyes through his mask. No doubt. Through these holes in his mask. No doubt, in my mind. In fact, Michelle said he'd given her his business card,

and it was still in her desk. He handed me a business card that said, on the spot photography, and with his name on the card. I mean, this is beyond dumb criminal. Beyond. Beyond. Tell me about this. Investigator Dale Martin showed us the card so thoughtfully left behind. Butler's card, yes.

It identified him as Christopher Butler, who investigators soon discovered was an ex-con with a history of robbing banks. This was the card that Butler brought in prior to the robbery when he was discussing opening an account. But if Michelle had met him only once, investigators wanted to know, how could she be so sure it was Butler? Have you seen him at any other time?

No, I told you. I saw him in the bank. He came in and pretended to be a potential customer. That's all. They find this implausible. They acted like they found it implausible. That wasn't the only thing investigators found implausible. Her background just didn't add up to what,

at least what I had envisioned to be a person entrusted with the management of a bank. Rudy Zamora, Dale Martin, and Randy Demers worked on the case. And what was your first impression when you all met Michelle? Michelle, they learned, had a colorful past. Drugs. Drugs. Sex. Lots.

And it was coming back to haunt her. I mean, I hadn't thought about my past in years. I left that behind so long ago. And all of a sudden, here it is. Before Michelle was a banker, she was a stripper. Did you like it? I loved it. Really?

Yep. I loved it. You liked the attention? Liked the attention. Liked the music and the fact that I could disappear on stage. Not only was it fun, but it paid well. And Michelle continued stripping for nine years, long after she began her banking career. I wasn't making a lot of money as a teller, and so I would work at the bank during the day and I would dance at night. None of your customers knew. No, they did not. They did not.

Neither did her bosses, and that wasn't her only secret. Did you even have a background in finance? I did not have a background in finance at all. Did you have a college degree? I did not have a college degree. And a high school degree? I did not have a high school diploma. I lied on my application because it was the only way I could get a good job and a better future for myself. Michelle had been on her own since

running away from an abusive home at 15. She started as a teller in a small-town bank and 13 years later with a lot of hard work she was a bank manager, albeit a bank manager seemingly incapable of managing her own money. There was bankruptcies, there was bouncing of checks. A month before the robbery, Michelle had filed for bankruptcy for the second time. Leading investigators to wonder, was that motive enough to rob her own bank?

Suddenly, I'm the mastermind. Suddenly, I orchestrated the entire thing. It never dawned on me that I would be a suspect. I automatically assumed that everyone would know that I was the innocent victim. It was crushing, Michelle says, to realize that the cops weren't sure she was either innocent or a victim. I was on the verge of a full-blown breakdown. It was not a good situation. She fled to a hotel, barricaded herself and her daughter inside, and tried to cope with both her fears and Brea's. and tried to cope with both her fears and Bria's. I was dealing with a very devastated seven-year-old girl.

She didn't talk a lot after that for a long time. She was very withdrawn and very clingy and a completely different child than who she was before this. But for all their suspicions, investigators could find not a shred of hard evidence that Michelle was involved. By contrast, Christopher Butler seemed to have gone out of his way to build an airtight case against himself.

Not only was there that business card, his thumbprint also matched one left in the red paint on the fake dynamite. Big mistake. Yeah, big mistake. He was a part of the robbery. Dale Martin, Randy Demers, and Rudy Zamora began tracking Butler and his friends.

And ten days after the robbery... I got a phone call from the district attorney saying that we caught them. My immediate words were, is it the people that were in my bank? And they said, yeah, it was. Chris Butler was under surveillance when police nabbed him at this intersection. In the car with him was his girlfriend, Lisa Ramirez, whom police suspected was the woman in the bank. They were in shock.

I would be, yeah. We're totally surprised. You thought they were such master criminals they could never be caught, or what? Correct. They thought they were free and clear. So confident that they were driving around with a trunk full of evidence.

Masks, gloves, clothing, Michelle's credit cards, but not a cent of that $360,000, although they did leave the straps. Ten thousand dollars, five thousand dollars, two thousand dollars. Wow. That's a lot of money. And in the glove compartment, this gun. It's a BB gun. It's not a real compartment, this gun. It's a BB gun. It's not a real weapon, but you would...

This is a BB gun? Yes. The treasure hunt continued at this house, where Butler and Ramirez had been staying. How important was the evidence that you found here? At this residence, it was crucial, I would say. Here, investigators discovered all the ingredients for making fake dynamite.

Bits of wooden dowels, red paint, wires, and empty rolls of duct tape. Everything you could ask for in one convenient place. That same day, some 50 miles away, police picked up a third suspect, Christopher Huggins. They also recovered $93,000, stashed in a safe. I found out that these people were involved in gang activity and, you know, these are scary individuals. For as bumbling as they seemed, Michelle was the key witness against them, and she was afraid of retaliation, especially since Robert Ortiz, the last suspect,

was still on the loose. We did the best we could, but there was some danger there because we didn't know where Robert Ortiz was. If you know where Ortiz is hiding, please call our hotline right now. But after Ortiz was featured on America's Most Wanted, he was caught in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The four suspects now all were under arrest.

The ringleader, Christopher Butler, wasn't talking. Christopher said nothing. He's a professional. Two minutes. We're coming. But Christopher Huggins and Robert Ortiz began talking immediately. So how much of the money did you get? I didn't. And though it took her a while... So did you want me to answer your question about the money?

Yeah. Lisa Ramirez wouldn't shut up. She admitted being the voice on the radio. She even bragged that she was the mastermind. She took credit for the idea? But her most intriguing claim was about another woman Ramirez said was involved. Here was Lisa pointing the finger at Michelle. Determined to find the truth, investigators again asked Michelle to reenact the crime,

this time with props. Though they had reservations, they put fake dynamite on her, Kimbra, and even on little Brea and took those pictures. Were you testing her? We were allowing the evidence to guide us where we needed to go. She was going to survive or she was going to break. She was very upset, very emotional. They didn't say, we think you're innocent, but we're doing our job.

They didn't say, we have to investigate because this is our job. They didn't do any of that. Every time we pushed a button, she would react in a way a true victim should. Investigators were inclined to believe her, but still, they were puzzled. And we say, what are we missing? What did we miss on this?

You just didn't think these bozos could do it by themselves. That was always kind of in the back of our mind, is how can these four individuals pull this off without assistance? You mean just because they just didn't seem smart enough? They just didn't seem smart enough. Adding to their uncertainty was another troublesome question.

Who had the rest of the money? I wish four people being arrested was the end of the story. I wish. It wasn't. Did you know that after World War II, the U.S. government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology?

Or that in the 1950s, the US Army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public? These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well-documented government operations that have been hidden away in classified files for decades. I'm Luke Lamanna, a Marine Corps recon vent, and I've always had a thing for digging into the unknown. It's what led me to start my new podcast, Redacted Declassified Mysteries.

In it, I explore hidden truths and reveal some eye-opening events like covert experiments and secret operations that those in power tried to keep buried. Follow redacted, declassified mysteries with me, Luke Lamanna, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen ad-free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Did you know that after World War II, the U.S. government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology? Did you know that after World War II, the US government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology?

Or that in the 1950s, the US Army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public? These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well-documented government operations that have been hidden away in classified files for decades. I'm Luke Lamanna, a Marine Corps recon vent, and I've always had a thing for digging into the unknown. It's what led me to start my new podcast, Redacted, Declassified Mysteries.

In it, I explore hidden truths and reveal some eye-opening events, like covert experiments and secret operations that those in power tried to keep buried. Follow redacted, declassified mysteries with me, Luke Lamanna, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen ad-free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. ["The Wondery App"]

They said they're going to bring your character into question. They're going to bring your past up. It was a nerve-racking year and a half after the kidnapping and robbery, before the first two defendants, Chris Butler and Lisa Ramirez, went to trial. There's no possible way to prepare for what was about to happen. Michelle was the state's key witness, and she was feeling the pressure. She could no longer bear to work at the bank. She left her dream house, and now she had to face her captors. Every single emotion you can imagine was just coming at me like darts. But at least prosecutor Tom Manning was on her side. We looked under every rock and explored every detail.

I believed she was a victim, and I couldn't imagine that Michelle would put Brea in that kind of jeopardy. Early on, Manning felt pretty good about his case. Along with an abundance of evidence, he had Michelle's roommate to back up her story and better yet he had a confession from Lisa Ramirez. Even Lisa's own lawyer, Herb Weston, saw this as a long shot for his client. You play the card you're dealt and then you try to get a winning strategy. He wasn't expecting miracles. Things didn't look too bright at the beginning. Things really stunk.

But he got a miracle. The judge threw out Lisa Ramirez's confession. Well, I was real happy. Ruling it implicated Lisa's co-defendant, Chris Butler, who had never admitted anything to police. By the time of the trial though, Butler dropped a bombshell. He now claimed the robbery was all Michelle's idea.

Do I believe Michelle's statement that I'm just a poor victim? No. From the very beginning, defense attorneys raised suspicion that Michelle was involved. I have no reason to believe she's not. They cast doubt on her story. Wait a minute there's something wrong here. And then Chris Butler went one shocking accusation further, claiming that he and Michelle were having an affair. At what point did he concoct this story of meeting me?

During his interrogation, he never ever once mentioned knowing me, dating me, my being the ringleader. There was no evidence at all of any affair, but the very suggestion of it fed into the defense strategy of attacking Michelle's credibility. And unfortunately for her, she made it easy for them because she had told a lie. A little lie, but one that would have a big impact. Right out of the gate, I was completely up front with the jury and I told them in my

opening statement that she lied. It all began when a band of masked terrorists... Michelle had misled prosecutors about, of all things, an appearance on America's Most Wanted. They were with us for a long time, many hours. The deputy DA advised her not to do it because it was a pending case. Yeah, they didn't want me to do it. He confronted her and she told him she did not do the interview. There was not one single move that I was going to make incorrectly. It was something that I wanted to participate in. So what did it matter? Manning tried to

point out that the lie was trivial, but the damage was done. There's no reason a true victim has to lie. None. Then on day eight, the prosecution's star witness took the stand and tried to describe the trauma of that day. Dynamite strapped to her daughter. She herself forced to rob her own bank. It's a stressful moment. She's nervous. I'm gonna be brave no matter what. She's fidgety. There were a lot of emotions that were coming over me.

Normal and typical ways victims and witnesses act. I'm going to be strong. But Michelle was her own worst enemy. She even argued with the prosecution. You can see anger, and she gets defensive. It obviously caused concerns for the jury. Was there anything that she did well as a prosecution witness? Showed up. When it was the defense's turn, Weston went gunning for Michelle. We don't win cases

by evidence, we win cases by emotion. She did certain things that just seemed so unbelievable. Specifically, why would Michelle race home to her daughter if she believed the dynamite was real? Here's a person who's supposed to have a bomb on her back. A bomb. And she's so worried about her daughter. So she runs into the same room where her daughter was. Would you take the chance?

Does that seem believable? And if she had really been bound with tape, where were the marks? Why isn't there any tape marks? That's what tape does. It leaves marks, and yet they don't find any of that. Why? The defense also zeroed in on Michelle's money problems.

They had a field day with your finances. Oh, God. They portrayed her as a financial wreck, a bank manager with a history of unpaid loans, bad checks, and two bankruptcies. Last time I checked, filing bankruptcy wasn't against the law. It's motive, as far as the defense is concerned. It means you needed money. According to them, but I was making my payments on time.

I was paying everyone back. The defense had yet another line of attack. The story they're trying to sell isn't really true. Remember Michelle's claim? It just clicked. That she recognized the voice on the walkie-talkie the night of the kidnapping? I knew without a doubt it was the exact same voice of the woman who had come into my bank and said, Hey, Chris.

The voice of Lisa Ramirez. Michelle insists she immediately identified Lisa's voice to investigators. You told them the next day. I did. Without any question. Without any question. I feel like this person on the other end of that line said, hey, Chris, was the woman that was in the bank.

She was interviewed, I think, four times. They were always in contact with this lady on the radio. And yet, in none of those times she ever said, I recognized her voice. She was always calling. You may think you told them. I know I told them. No one else talked to her.

Michelle did tell investigators about the voice on the walkie talkie, but nowhere in any FBI report is there any record of her saying that she recognized that voice. And all of a sudden she comes up with that at the time of the trial, which opened doors for me to be able to say, why are you putting this in now? The truth is, it was Lisa Ramirez on that walkie talkie.

She had even admitted it in her confession. But remember, the judge threw that statement out. And so all the jury had to go on was Michelle's own story and the defense was determined to rip it apart. The more Weston went after her, I felt like I was the one on trial. The more combative Michelle got, I started becoming very defensive about what they were saying about me. She fought me all the way, which I love. He was intimidating. She was edgy. He was rude. If you were throwing darts out of her eyes,

I would have been like bleeding and on the floor. He was tough for me. If I can get a witness angry, the jury is going to be put off. And Michelle was angry. Way over the board angry. I was a mess. You're a victim of a crime. You have a right to be angry. But explain to me why there's these inconsistencies. After three grueling days on the stand...

It just took the breath out of me. It took the fight out of me. Michelle finally finished her testimony. I really was blindsided by this in a lot of ways. The trial took three weeks. I got the vibes in the courtroom. I knew there were issues. Now the jury had the case. But I thought the jury would ultimately come around and convict.

I worry about everything. Some of the best work I've ever done, I still lose. It's a chess game. Whoever's the better player wins. MUSIC Dracula, the ancient vampire who terrorizes Victorian London. Blood and garlic, bats and crucifixes, even if you haven't read the book, you think you know the story. One of the incredible things about Dracula is that not only is it this wonderful snapshot

of the 19th century, but it also has so much resonance today. The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in a mirror. So when we look in the mirror, the only thing we see is our own monstrous abilities. From the host and producer of American History Tellers and History Daily comes the new podcast, The Real History of Dracula. We'll reveal how author Bram Stoker rated ancient folklore, exploited Victorian fears around sex, science, and religion, and how even today we remain enthralled to his strange creatures of the night.

You can binge all episodes of The Real History of Dracula exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery+, The Wondria, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. It was 1983. Power suits and perms were all the rage. Nightclubs pulsed with energy. And from bedrooms to boardrooms, cocaine was the drug of choice. One woman was raking in cash to keep that supply chain moving.

Her name was Laney Jacobs. But Laney had her sights set higher. She dreamed of becoming a Hollywood movie producer. That's how it starts. Before it ends, someone will be shot dead. From Wondery and the team behind the hit series Hollywood and Crime comes a gripping tale of ambition, betrayal, and the dark side of moviemaking. Follow Hollywood and Crime, a gripping tale of ambition, betrayal, and the dark side of

moviemaking. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen everywhere on December 2nd, or you can binge all episodes early and ad-free on Wondery Plus starting November 11. First hour is what we call the first hour of sweat. That first hour of jury deliberation stretched into a day. Then another day.

I was waiting and waiting and waiting. Finally, after five days, the jury came back. I wanted to hear the words, guilty, for what they had done. She heard nothing of the kind. While the jury found Christopher Butler guilty of kidnapping Brea and Kimbra, he was not convicted of kidnapping Michelle. What happened? What went wrong?

Jury said later some believed Butler's claim that he and Michelle were having an affair, although there was no evidence they even knew each other. No pictures, not a phone record, not one person that ever saw us together, not one single thing to support this guy's claims. Equally shocking was the verdict for Lisa Ramirez, who had confessed, though the confession never was heard in court.

Who's idea was that? I had made a joke. I don't understand why bank robbers go in there and hold people up. They can just stick a fake device on their back. in court. The jury found Ramirez not guilty on all counts. Complete disappointment, shock. For us it was a good victory. My client got to go home that night. Herb Weston's client, Ramirez, walked out of the courtroom a free woman.

TENSE MUSIC Lisa Ramirez is guilty, and had we tried the case separating the defendants and used a confession, it's more than likely that a jury would have convicted her. They didn't use it. They didn't use it. That wasn't the evidence. Even today, you smile when you tell me they didn't use it.

Well, of course, because my girl confessed or made a statement that made it implied at least she was aware of what was going on. When the judge threw out her confession, the case against Ramirez hinged on Michelle's testimony. And she'd done herself no favors. Her credibility was shot on the stand. The jury did not believe Michelle.

One juror thought Michelle was involved. When the trial ended, did you say to yourself, you know, I did a pretty good job up there? No. What did you think? Horrible. Terrible. Beat myself up for a really long time about being so weak up there.

Michelle got a chance to redeem herself two months later when she took the stand in the trial of Christopher Huggins and Robert Ortiz. Night and day. She was prepared. And this time the entire case didn't hang on her. We had confessions from Ortiz and Huggins. Confessions in which they never once accused Michelle of being involved. It's my understanding that the jury has reached a verdict. It's my understanding that the jury has reached a verdict. This jury was out for only a day.

We the jury find the defendant Christopher Michael Huggins guilty of the crime. It found both Huggins and Ortiz guilty on all charges, including the kidnapping of Michelle Renee. The two men, along with Christopher Butler, were each given three consecutive life terms in prison. Which leaves just one nagging question. There was money missing. Where did that go to?

Remember $360,000 was taken from the bank. So in the end, you recovered what? About a hundred thousand. Yeah. And you've never known where the rest of that money is. Nope. It's gone. Gone forever. To this day, police have no idea what happened to that missing money

or who ended up with it. If you're going to ask me if Michelle has it, no. Former colleague Loretta Myers feels that the trial left an unfair cloud of suspicion hanging over Michelle. Michelle was not a part of this. She would never, never, ever jeopardize Brea. Never. Do you still run into people who say, you know what, I wonder if she had anything to do with this? I do, and I get pissed about it. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?

My daughter is my world. One up, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. One, two, one, three, down. Brea is 16 now and focused on high school activities. Cheerleading, gymnastics, but she still has flashbacks to that awful night. I don't think it's ever gonna be back to like total normal, because it's still like with us a little bit. She still has nightmares sometimes. So do I.

And when they come, we know how to talk about it and not let it rule our lives. In fact, Michelle discovered she liked talking about her experience and soon turned it into a new career. Without this ever happening, I don't know that I would ever found something I'm so passionate about. Oh, good. Passionate about telling her story.

Then we can set one up like this maybe. She first wrote a book about the crime. That's the message. Enjoy the book. Oh, this is going to be fun. And back on. Now, Lifetime has turned her book into a TV movie. Action. With Michelle in a cameo role.

Let's do it. I can count still. As a bank teller. Roll sound. Rolling. Action. Rather than running away from the worst day in her life. Thanks for coming.

Michelle continues to embrace it. I know what post-trauma feels like. With motivational speaking engagements, I need to grab control over something. TV and radio appearances, Her name is Michelle Renee. And an upbeat website, It's inspirational on so many levels.

With links to all things Michelle. Seems like you've done everything possible to keep this more or less as the focus of your life. My focus is, the center focus is for me now is about healing. It's about not letting things in your life that happen to you keep you down. I get emails from people in phone calls that say,

you have no idea how much you've helped me. That's worth a million bucks. And the bank manager should know. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wonder E comm slash survey From the award-winning masters of audio horror. I see a face right up against the window bleach white No hair black eyes a round hole for a mouth

It's flat Taylor. It's completely flat. I don't know what that is. I don't know what kind of a head is flat. Comes the return of Dark Sanctum. Look. What is that coming under the door? It's blood. Seven original chilling tales inspired by the Twilight Zone and Tales from the Crypt. Get back in your car. Lizzie, it's okay. I'm here now. Josh, get in your car!

Oh! Oh! Oh, my God! Starring Bethany Joy Lenz, Clive Standen, and Michael O'Neil. Welcome to the Dark Sanctum. Listen to Dark Sanctum Season 2 exclusively on Wondry+. Join Wondry+, and the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.