48 Hours - Was Kevin Cooper Framed?

Episode Date: January 27, 2019

Nearly 20 years ago a death row inmate wrote to "48 Hours" that he was framed for the murder of four people. Was evidence planted? New DNA tests could answer that question. Correspondent Erin Moriarty investigates.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app today. Even if you love the thrill of true crime stories as much as I do, there are times when you want to mix it up. And that's where Audible comes in, with all the genres you love and new ones to discover. Explore thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. thousands of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, with more added all the time. Listening to Audible can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits,

and even your overall well-being. And you can enjoy Audible anytime, while doing household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. In 2014, Laura Heavlin was in her home in Tennessee when she received a call from California. Her daughter, Erin Corwin, was missing. The young wife of a Marine had moved to the California desert

to a remote base near Joshua Tree National Park. They have to alert the military. And when they do, the NCIS gets involved. From CBS Studios and CBS News, this is 48 Hours NCIS. Listen to 48 Hours NCIS ad-free starting October 29th on Amazon Music. It was nearly 20 years ago that I started getting letters from San Quentin. I'm Kelly Cooper. I'm on death row. Cooper claimed he had been framed for the murder of four people. I lived under the murder of four people.

I lived under the threat of death 24 hours a day. After all this time, there's now compelling evidence that could finally settle this case once and for all. There was a terrible home invasion in Chino Hills, California, one night in 1983. There was a family of four with a young boy who was an overnight guest. Four of them died. One survived even though his throat had been cut. Did you have some injuries? Yeah. throat had been cut. Did you have some injuries? Yeah.

My throat was slashed, got stabbed here, hit by an axe here, screwdriver, punctured my back, my lung, broke three ribs. Authorities say more than one weapon was used in the brutal murders. The authorities then arrested and sentenced to death a young black man named Kevin Cooper for the crime. This occurred in a upper middle class neighborhood, a horse country. When you have such a gruesome crime in a neighborhood like that, finding somebody to pin it on

was very important. And Kevin Cooper was a convenient person to pin it on was very important. And Kevin Cooper was a convenient person to pin it on. The problem was they didn't have the evidence. I believe the evidence was planted against them because they were under great pressure to solve a brutal, horrible crime against a white family. I am very confident, no, more than confident, 100% certain Kevin Cooper committed these murders. Those people said that I killed four people and attempted to kill a fifth person in four minutes. How the hell is that possible? I've always heard that maybe Kevin Cooper didn't do it

and that there might be someone else out there I need to know because I lost four people that night There is abundant evidence suggesting three or four white perpetrators We have the person who we think killed the Ryans And can I ask you point blank Did you kill the Ryan family?

No, I did not. Or Christopher Hughes? No, I did not. I have nothing to do with this. I'm Tom Parker. I'm a retired FBI agent. I was brought into this case at the request of the lead attorney, who wanted me to come in and just go

through this case A to Z. The more I dug into it, I began to realize that there was something seriously wrong with the case. I think Kevin is innocent. I also think that he was the victim of a horribly racist prosecution. The criminal justice system isn't good at reversing course. Once somebody has been convicted, there is a momentum that tends to take them to the execution chamber.

He's very determined. He's got a lot of people pulling for him, not only within the prison, but outside. It was thrilling to see the reaction from everybody, from the pope to Kim Kardashian, and a lot of others in between. I think they got the wrong guy. I can go. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informants' Lawyer X exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

And listen to more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad-free right now. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still a virgin. It just happens to all of us.

I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years, I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

I want to know the truth. I want to know why my family was murdered. I want to know the answer. The passage of time had not made life easier for Mary Howell. In the summer of 2000, she was still haunted by what happened to her family 17 years earlier on June 4th, 1983. In one night, one unspeakable crime, Mary lost her daughter, Peggy Ryan, son-in-law, Doug, and her granddaughter, 10-year-old Jessica. An 11-year-old neighbor spending the night, Christopher Hughes, also lost his life. All stabbed and slashed to death. Here is 40, always. One second, you're still alive.

The only one who miraculously lived through that night was Mary's grandson, Josh Ryan, then eight and a half years old. What does something like this do to a person's life? Changes your life. You lose somebody and it hurts. You lose somebody and it hurts. There was strong evidence pointing to multiple assailants.

A bloody hatchet was discovered near the Ryan's Arabian Horse ranch. Investigators believed it was just one of three weapons used. And according to the coroner, the victims had some 140 wounds. The Ryan's family car is missing and presumed taken by the murder suspects. It's a 1977 Buick four-door station wagon. Neighbors reported they saw three people drive in a car that looked like it. And Josh, when questioned by Deputy Dale Sharp

at the hospital, still too wounded to speak, also indicated that there were three attackers. When we got to the point of asking him how many people were there, I went, one, two, three, and he squeezed my hand. Three people when things went crazy. Right. Where were you hurt?

My ear, my back, my neck, and my chest. Josh thought the attackers were white or Mexican, and yet police soon zeroed in on one man. This man, Kevin Cooper. The prime suspect, escaped prisoner Kevin Cooper, is still at large. Cooper was a career burglar who'd escaped from prison and was on the run. He had been hiding out at a vacant house near the Ryan home before the murders. Authorities believed he killed the Ryans to steal their car. A hatchet was reported missing from Cooper's hideout house,

and a hatchet sheath was later recovered there. The huge manhunt was finally over, with Cooper being sly enough to evade them for months. The case of the people of the state of California versus Kevin Cooper. By the time Cooper went on trial in 1984, the memory of the only eyewitness, Josh Ryan, then 10, had faded. What did you see? I don't know, really, like, saw almost like a shadow or something. had faded. What did you see? He no longer remembered three attackers. How many shadows did you see? Just the one? We the jury of the above entitled cause

determined that the penalty shall be death. Kevin Cooper was convicted and condemned to die, although he told the jury then what he told me by phone, that he was innocent. Why should someone believe you, Kevin? I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I'm asking people to look at the evidence. And the evidence does raise questions. And the evidence does raise questions. It's hard to believe one man would use three weapons and leave no fingerprints and none of his hair anywhere in the Ryan home.

What was found, clutched in Jessica Ryan's hand, were strands of light-colored hair. When I saw that little hand, she must have fought terribly. The scene was incredibly bloody, and yet the state's experts said only a single drop in the entire house matched Kevin Cooper's blood type. A man walking his dog spotted the Ryan car in a church parking lot yesterday morning. And then there's the stolen family station wagon. A man walking his dog spotted the Ryan car in a church parking lot yesterday morning.

And then there's the stolen family station wagon. Police eagerly searched the car for clues. Blood was found in the car, but if Kevin Cooper used it to get away, why was the blood on three seats, not one. Two cigarettes were also discovered, but not until a second search of the car by sheriff's deputies. And if Kevin Cooper didn't do it, would the real killers come back to finish the job? That was Mary Howell's deepest fear. If somebody's out there that thinks that maybe Josh could identify him,

if they went after Josh, they'd go after me, too. I'm concerned. I'm a protective grandmother. Do you still have a gun? I'm a shotgun, yeah. It would make a big hole in a person. In 2001, with both the victims and convicted killer pushing for DNA tests, the state finally agreed. There wasn't enough DNA in the hairs to test. But those cigarette butts, a tan t-shirt believed to be worn by the killer and that tiny blood-stained paint chip were

all sent to the lab. A year later, when the state announced results, no one seemed more shocked than Cooper. The evidence tested positive for his DNA. It was devastating. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you. I thought I was going to walk out the door. Cooper was convinced that somehow investigators had tampered with and planted the evidence. But who would believe him? Not Josh Ryan. It's time to face it. The DNA is pointing to Kevin Cooper.

So he was there. He needs to pay for his crime. So we have closure. But his loving grandmother disagreed. I haven't changed my opinions at all. She still couldn't believe one man killed her family. I still am looking for the truth. I feel the killers are still out there somewhere. Kevin Cooper, after 19 years on death row, was scheduled to die by lethal injection on February 10, 2004.

Would you go watch him die? Yes. You would need to do that? Yes. He was there, so he needs to pay for that. If Kevin Cooper is executed, you believe that they'll be killing an innocent man? Yes, I do. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge?

Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly. Introducing the best idea yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk-takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario,

the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala? From Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discover the surprising stories of the most viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party. So follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

It's just the best idea yet. As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. It was about this supernatural killer who would attack his victims if they said his name five times into a bathroom mirror. But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an actual murder? I was struck by both how spooky it was, but also how outrageous it was. Listen to Candyman, the true story behind the bathroom mirror murder, early and ad-free, with a 48 hours plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. February 10, 2004, Kevin Cooper's date with death was set. And then, with just hours to go...

The execution that was supposed to happen a few hours ago is now on hold. The execution that was supposed to happen a few hours ago is now on hold. A surprise ruling late tonight that stayed his execution and stunned just about everybody. But for the moment, that execution is on hold. The Ninth Circuit Federal Appellate Court stepped in and saved Cooper's life. He later described that moment to me. How close did you come? I came within three hours and 42 minutes of being strapped down to that gun and physically tortured with lethal poison.

After the court stayed his execution, attorney Norman Heil, working pro bono, joined Cooper's defense. I think Kevin is innocent, and I also think that he was the victim of a horribly racist prosecution, and I just don't give up. For the next four years, Heil fought to get Cooper a new trial, petitioning court after court. But the boxes of legal documents continued to pile up. And that was her hairdo at that time. Mary Howell still refused to say it was over. Everybody knows that I want to know the truth. Why my family was killed? Who did it? Why?

And I don't want to die without knowing it. Sadly, the 93-year-old grandmother never got the answer she hoped for. Love you, Grandma. In 2008, Mary Howell died. Kevin Cooper had been on death row for 23 years. In 2009, Cooper finally got a break. By now, his case was back in front of the Ninth Circuit Court with 27 judges. While the majority refused to review his case, 11 of them disagreed. There is not a single case in U.S. history

where 11 appellate judges said that they felt that the person had not gotten a fair hearing. One judge, William Fletcher, wrote in a scathing 100-page dissent, the state of California may be about to execute an innocent man and there is substantial evidence that three white men, rather than Cooper, were the killers. Please join me in welcoming Judge Fletcher of the Ninth Circuit. In a lecture, he pointed to contradictions in the only survivor's account. Josh Ryan first indicated the assailants were three white or Mexican men.

By trial, his story was different. How many shadows did you see? Just one. Just the one? Judge Fletcher believes Josh's memory was influenced by a deputy who had visited Josh approximately 20 times during his hospital stay. The deputy got Josh to change the story so that he no longer said three or four white men did it. The judge also noted Josh never identified Kevin Cooper. During

his stay in the hospital, Josh twice saw a picture of Cooper on television. Both times, he said Cooper was not one of the killers. It's what Cooper's lawyers have been saying all along. As soon as they identified Kevin Cooper, a black escaped prisoner, in the house down the hill from the Ryans, they stopped looking for those people and focused entirely on proving that Kevin Cooper had killed the Ryans. Judge Fletcher also questions the key piece of evidence in this case. That drop of blood the state says proves Kevin Cooper was inside the Ryan home.

The criminalists said it was one blood type, and later, he said it was another. When he found out that he'd put the wrong blood type down, that he had not matched it to Kevin, he changed his notes to say it was the same blood type as Kevin's. The judge says the criminalist altered his lab notes and claimed that he had misinterpreted his results. But that's not all. Remember the cigarette butts found in the Ryan station wagon?

Defense attorney Norman Heil believes they came from the home where Cooper had been hiding out. When they found the Ryan station wagon, they planted those two cigarette butts. What's more, Heil says that one of those cigarettes inexplicably grew from one state test to another. The previous tested cigarette butt was 4 millimeters long, and the one in 2002 was 7 millimeters long. Judge Fletcher says deputies discounted, disregarded,

and discarded evidence pointing to other killers, like evidence provided by Diana Roper. She called the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office after she found bloody coveralls left in her closet. I tried to tell them they had this house to do with the Channel murder. She said they belonged to her ex-boyfriend, a parole killer by the name of Lee Furrow. by the name of Lee Furrow. Furrow killed a 17-year-old witness by the name of Mary Sue Kitts

on the orders of gang leader Clarence Ray Allen. Just an evil, evil person. I mean, if you look at him, you look in his eyes, you can see it. It wasn't just the coveralls that alarmed Roper. On the day of the murders, she remembered that Furrow was wearing a t-shirt, like the blood-stained one found near the Ryan home. It was like a beige, light brown

colored beige. And she says she told investigators that Furrow also owned a hatchet that looked like the weapon used on the Ryans and Christopher Hughes. Well, he kept all of his tools on the back porch hanging on nails. And as soon as they said, I walked back there in his hatchet because there was nothing missing. Yet the bloody coveralls were never tested. Instead, a deputy threw them out before Cooper's trial. Kevin Cooper believes they could have helped his case. And so does Judge Fletcher.

The bloody overalls were, to say the least, inconvenient, so the deputies threw them away. Kevin Cooper, the man now sitting on death row, may well be, and in my view, probably is, innocent. Doesn't that give you pause? Doesn't that make you feel that you have to do whatever you can to make sure that the right person's being executed? The right person is being executed. District Attorney Michael Ramos inherited Cooper's case in 2002. It doesn't give me pause at all because you're talking about a sending judge of the Ninth Circuit Judges' Court of Appeals, which is federal, you know, with all due respect, a very liberal circuit.

The majority opinion was not only guilty, overwhelmingly guilty. By 2010, Kevin Cooper, 52 years old, had been on death row nearly half his life. His appeals had run out, but the state of California had halted executions. He was in legal limbo. And then a newspaper columnist 3,000 miles away took notice. I'm Nicholas Kristof. I write op-ed columns for The New York Times. What caught Kristof's attention was Judge William Fletcher's dissent. I had never read an opinion like this with a respected circuit court judge arguing that somebody on death row had been framed. Christoph is a Pulitzer Prize winning writer covering genocide and human rights issues.

And there was something about Kevin Cooper's case that struck a chord. Prosecutors kind of seized upon him as that, you know, he's sent by central casting. He looks the part that people had in their minds for a ruthless killer. And that it's particularly problematic when a black person is charged with the killings of a white person, or in this case, white people. And I think that made it a lot harder for Kevin Cooper to be tried fairly for this crime. Kristof is haunted by another death penalty case. Cameron Todd Willingham was put to death by lethal injection in 2004. Two years later, evidence surfaced showing he was likely an innocent man.

I wish that I had written about the case back then. I think I screwed up. I don't think my writing would have particularly made a difference in that case, but you have to try. And so I'm trying in Kevin Cooper's case. try. And so I'm trying in Kevin Cooper's case. Kristoff wrote about Cooper's case in 2010. But for the next seven years, the case seemed frozen. So Kristoff wrote another column in 2017. It just disappeared without a ripple. In fact, it was one of my worst read columns in 2017. Then in May 2018, he tried again. Kristof and a team from the New York Times

did an in-depth investigation into Cooper's case. They took a fresh look at the evidence that has long been questioned. A41, that tiny bloodstained paint chip, and the tan T-shirt that the state says tested positive for Cooper's DNA in 2002. Kristof's conclusion? You believe, as you're sitting here right now, that there was evidence planted?

I believe that there was evidence planted. But if that's true, how did Cooper's DNA get on the paint chip and on that tan T-shirt? Defense attorney Norman Heil has a theory. Authorities had Cooper's blood. When Kevin Cooper was arrested, they took two vials of blood from him, and that's the blood that they could have used. And before the DNA tests were performed, this glass scene envelope, which contained A41, was checked out overnight, signed out to the same criminalist who first

matched the blood to Cooper. His reason? He said it was to assure there was enough evidence to test. Earlier this month, I spoke with Cooper. Kevin, what do you believe happened when he took out what we've been calling A-41, the single drop of blood that they say connects you to the case? I think he put either lava or blood in there or something in there.

He had it out for 24 hours. And you only sign it and date it when you open the container. And the date is on there. You know, I've seen the picture. As for the T-shirt, a judge who held a hearing on evidence tampering in 2003 determined that the shirt had not been checked out or looked at by anyone prior to DNA testing. But that's not accurate. The state showed us the t-shirt a year before the DNA tests were done, when we first started looking at the case. Can you turn around and hold it though? Right, yeah. If you were going to test this shirt here, you would test it for what?

To see if there's any DNA there that can be tested. Kristoff believes there's a suspicious pattern in Cooper's case. I think this is unusual in the enormous amount of evidence that suggests that Kevin Cooper was framed. The way consistently a place would be searched, no evidence would be found. And then once they knew they were looking at Kevin Cooper,

then they would search again and abracadabra, they would find critical evidence that they needed against him. Former District Attorney Michael Ramos says claims of evidence tampering have been dismissed by both state and federal courts. As far as planning evidence, that's absolutely impossible. There was no evidence tampering at all. The New York Times also produced a podcast to accompany Kristof's column.

I'm ashamed of a lot of things that I've done in my life, but I'm not a murderer. That's real. Kristof called for new DNA testing in Cooper's case and got a huge response from readers, politicians, even celebrities. Kim Kardashian West sent out this tweet. Governor Brown, can you please test the DNA of Kevin Cooper? And what was your reaction when she actually went on social media saying you deserve to get testing? I'm very thankful that she cared enough and took the time out of her busy life to do that. I understand even the Pope. The Pope weighed in. Yeah, how great is that?

You saw the article written by Nicholas Kristof. Right. Is he wrong? Absolutely wrong. And I wish that he would have taken the time to go over the evidence, the evidence that was presented at the trial, the evidence that was presented to the pellet courts,

the federal proceedings. I truly believe that he didn't do his homework before writing that one-sided, very one-sided story. So if you disagree with my conclusions, then test the evidence. The best response, if you don't like my argument, is to prove me wrong with the evidence that is sitting in lockers and has been for 35

years. More than three decades after Kevin Cooper was sent to death row, with so many people asking questions, we went back to the man who has always searched for the truth. How are you doing? I'm good. Long time no see. Good to see you. Private investigator Paul Ingalls. Look at the dust on this.

Well, it's been 16 years. Oh, my God. Even after all these years, he's hung on to his files. Here's the hatchet. Oh. When it was found. That's from the crime scene. As you sit here today, do you think it's possible

that some of that evidence was planted? Absolutely. Planted or contaminated. Or maybe both. And Ingalls has always been troubled by evidence that points to multiple killers, not one. Where are we heading right now? We're going to head up to the vicinity of where the murders took place.

Chino Hills. He took me up to the vicinity of where the murders took place, Chino Hills. He took me back to the Chino Hills neighborhood, where the Ryans once ran their Arabian horse ranch high up on a hill. You're left on English Place. OK, this is different. 900 feet. You'll arrive.

And he showed me where some of the evidence that Cooper once tested was found. Where was the hatchet found? In this vicinity here, it's changed. It used to be this was all weeds and stuff. The hatchet was believed to have been dropped by the killer or killers after the murders. So the murderer would be turning exactly like we are. Next, we drove to where the Canyon Corral bar once stood.

In half a mile, turn right onto Payton Drive. That's significant. I remember three. Because on the night of the murders, witnesses said they saw three white men in the bar, one of them wearing a light-colored t-shirt and another wearing bloody coveralls. I realized at that time that he was just covered in blood, spattered in blood. He had a light-colored shirt on, so it really, I mean,

it showed up. Even though the bar was real dark, you could still see it. When you first heard that the Ryans had been murdered, what was your first thought? The guys in the bar. And not far from that bar is where investigators found an orange towel they believe came from the Ryan home and the tan, blood-spattered T-shirt. So doesn't that lend some credence that those three guys could have walked into the bar? Absolutely. I mean, the evidence is right there. The one piece of evidence that I don't think could be tampered with is the sweat on the inside of the neck and under the armpits. I mean, how would a corrupt deputy plant sweat on a T-shirt?

Can't do it. That's exactly what Diana Roper told us back in 2000. DNA the sweat off the t-shirt. That's all I got to say. Roper, who died in 2003, insisted that her ex-boyfriend Lee Furrow had been wearing a tan t-shirt the night of the murders. State investigators had discounted her story and questioned her credibility. They thought I was on drugs or crazy. God is my witness, I was clean. I was not on drugs.

I know what I saw. We wanted to hear from Lee Furrow, so I asked Paul Ingalls to help me track him down. By then, Furrow had moved across the country to Pennsylvania. Please fix your hair. And he agreed to talk. Here I am. I asked Furrow about the bloody coveralls

that Roper said were his. I never had any coveralls. As for the tan T-shirt, Furrow had told investigators he was wearing a tank top the night of the murders. Can I ask you point blank, did you kill the Ryan family? No, I did not. Or Christopher Hughes? No, I did not. I had nothing to do with any of this.

But Furrow doesn't deny he's killed before. That 17-year-old witness, Mary Sue Kitts, her body was never found. How did you kill her? That's yeah between me and in the courts. According to testimony in the court you strangled her is that correct? Yes. And then how was she disposed of? Dumped in the river. Is that the only time you killed anyone? Yes. The coveralls are long gone, but will forensic testing of the tan T-shirt tell a different story?

Today, those tests are sophisticated enough to identify DNA from sweat. Can the person who wore this t-shirt 35 years ago be identified? We took our questions to Dr. Dan Crane, a biology professor and DNA expert at Wright State University in Ohio. And we provided him with lab reports in Kevin Cooper's case. I mean, is it really likely that you would be able to find out the wear of this t-shirt 35 years after a crime? Well, first, the time isn't particularly important. DNA is a very stable molecule. It would persist for many decades, maybe even centuries. Those areas you're talking about sampling, the collar, the armpits, that's routinely done. Those tests are very straightforward. They can be very reliable. So you think there's a good

chance that you will get a DNA profile? I'm very comfortable saying that I would be very surprised if a DNA profile was not generated from those samples. As for that hatchet discovered near the crime scene, testing may be more difficult. It's been dusted for fingerprints, so the dusting process could have moved DNA from one part to another. Just looking at the photograph, it appears as if there's a lot of victims biological material here. I expect you'll see a DNA profile that corresponds to the victims and you may not even be able to get a hint that there was somebody else's DNA there. The defense also wants that hatchet sheath and orange towel tested but there are challenges with testing this old

evidence. Now the problem may be it may be a mixture of many people's DNA. And why is that a problem? Well, mixtures are very difficult to interpret. And this is part of the reason the state is opposing new testing. Dr. Crane, what about the state's argument that this shirt has been handled by so many people, including jurors at the original trial, that there's simply too much of a risk of contamination to trust the results? Well, I think it's a reasonable point. Cooper's DNA on the shirt, but a specific other alternative suspect's DNA. Then I think the burden shifts over to the prosecution to explain how that DNA might have been transferred to the shirt while it was in their care. To show us how easy it is to transfer DNA, Crane did a simple demonstration using a packet of sugar. And so if we just rip it open, you know, I can put some of that sugar in my hand.

We'll spread it around a little bit. There's still some sugar on my hand. Let's shake hands. If you look carefully, you'll see there's sugar on your hand. There's some on mine. Not only is there plenty of sugar grains there, there's also plenty of my DNA there now, too. It's really easy to transfer DNA from one thing to another, from one person to another. Kevin Cooper's defense suspects Lee Furrow was part of the crew that killed the Ryan family and Christopher Hughes. But to prove it, they need to get a sample of his DNA. More than 35 years since the brutal murders in Chino Hills, California, there is still no peace for Josh Ryan and the family of Christopher Hughes.

They believe Kevin Cooper is responsible. In a letter to California Governor Jerry Brown last April, Josh wrote, Kevin Cooper is in my mind every day. He is a nightmare which plays over and over in my head. I can never get away from him. But Cooper, facing death, still insists he's innocent. Well, I can't not take responsibility for motives that I did not commit. And he's asked Governor Brown to take the extraordinary step to order new DNA tests. I don't see that as a bad gamble from our perspective. What have we got to lose?

But the state is fighting it. Former D.A. Michael Ramos believes the victims' families have suffered enough. The tests have been done. Any further tests is not going to take away the evidence that we have that Kevin Cooper committed these murders. You talk about cruel and unusual punishment, that's what you're doing to the family. If you allow this murderer manipulator to work the system to get these further, quote, tests that aren't going to disprove anything.

Still, Cooper's attorneys are so confident that new tests will clear Cooper, they're offering to pay for them. They believe that DNA from sweat on the t-shirt will match Lee Furrow, that paroled killer. Defense investigator Tom Parker, a retired FBI agent, says he's now found new witnesses, one who says Furrow admitted he was involved in the murders. These people had no reason to make any of this up. They gained nothing from it. They are willing to testify, but we're not going to divulge who they are right now. What is Lee Furrow's connection with the Ryans? What would be his motive? Well, that's something that we have actually developed a lot more information and possibilities.

Defense attorney Norman Heil believes the connection between the Ryans and Furrow may have been Clarence Ray Allen, who ordered Furrow to kill once before. Allen owned show horses. So everybody's been wondering, well, what was the motive here? And we have four different connections between the Ryan murder and a horse deal gone bad that related to the Ryans.

And we think that is the reason why the murders took place. But Furrow has always said he had an alibi. He was at a concert that night. He was 30-plus miles away from the crime scene when this murder occurred. We tried to talk to Furrow again earlier this month, but he wouldn't talk to me. to talk to Furrow again earlier this month, but he wouldn't talk to me. To try to prove Furrow is involved, the defense team wants a sample of his DNA,

and Furrow was willing to give one. Were you surprised that he was just willing to hand over his DNA? I was astonished that he would be willing to do that, and I asked him why, and he said he really had nothing to hide. Furrow was seen here with a relative at a meeting that was secretly recorded by Investigator Parker. So, if you wouldn't mind opening up your mouth, I'll do this side here.

Furrow was willing to give his saliva, but not his blood. I'm not doing blood to where it can end up on evidence like that. Not whatever they did to him. No, no. Lee Furrow still disputes he ever owned or wore a tan T-shirt, like the one his ex-girlfriend, Diana Roper, said he was wearing the night of the murders. You never had a tan T-shirt like that? No, no.

It's not what you have. No. Well, DNA's going to tell us. Even 35 not, okay. Well, DNA's gonna tell us. Even 35 years later, those skin cells are still gonna be there. We have the DNA of the person who we think killed the Ryans. That's Lee Farrell.

It was up to California's governor, Jerry Brown, to decide whether any of the evidence in Cooper's case would be retested. And in December, just 14 days before Brown left office, Cooper got a surprise. The news made headlines everywhere. Governor Jerry Brown has ordered new DNA testing for death row inmate Kevin Cooper, including social media. How did you hear about it? I found out about it on Christmas morning when I was watching the news.

The governor's order is limited in scope. DNA tests will be allowed for only four items, the hatchet, the sheath, the tan t-shirt, and the orange towel. A retired judge was appointed to make sure the tests are done properly. I'm just trying to stay positive and hopeful, but I'm also skeptical. So are these DNA tests really a matter of life or death? They are for Mr. Cooper, for sure. Does he know what he's up against?

He continues to believe he has hope that someday he will ultimately be exonerated. Let's use the technologies we have to figure out who wore the tan t-shirt. Maybe they won't provide answers, but it's also possible that they will resolve this case. And how can we leave that stone unturned? And how can we leave that stone unturned? Attorneys for both sides are working out the details for Kevin Cooper's new DNA tests. The testing is expected to take place in the next few months. All right, this year I'm hosting the Grammys, and I need us to all come together as one, okay? So Gaga, I'm gonna need your support.

And Janelle, I know you can step up to the plate. And Cardi, I see you. All right, guys. Let's do this. Alicia Keys hosts the Grammys. Live, CBS, February 10th. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey

at wondery.com slash survey.