48 Hours - What the Neighbors Saw

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

Late at night a couple watches as a rolled-up carpet is carted out of a nearby home. Soon after they learn the combative neighbor who lived there is missing.  Peter Van Sant reports. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As a career detective, this case is very unique. Little did I know that this would lead to one of the most fascinating cold case homicides that I'd ever been part of. How did this case begin for you? So on December 3rd of 2017, the Sheriff's Department received a 911 call from a homeowner reporting that their family dog brought back a human skull. human skull. It came back with a human skull. Yes. And it had an obvious gunshot wound to the back of the head. We kind of organized a grid search and within minutes located the clandescent grave right off in this area. So Peter, this is an area right up here. I'll follow you. Now this is quite a thicket, isn't it? It's a little thicket.

If you see this little indention in the soil right here, that's where the skeletal remains were found. We had a very circumstantial case. We literally have human bones, human remains with a gunshot wound to the head, and at that point, is this a murder? Is this a suicide? We have a model of a human skull.

Can you show us where that wound was? It's pretty much towards the back rear of the skull. skull. When you look at these scattered bones, are they telling you a story? Yes, it tells me that it's most likely the story of murder. We were reviewing missing persons cases throughout the Midwest, but nothing was definitive to who this victim was. When the cases come to the DNA Doe Project, everything's already been exhausted. Genetic genealogy is the last resort. So we use the DNA to the look at the matches and we can build family trees that way and figure out the identities of people.

In this case, that person is Gary Albert Herbst. The victim Gary was from Scott County, Minnesota. We located the home where Gary had last lived. Some of the neighbors who still lived in the neighborhood had reported some, remembering some activity back in 20 years. in 2013 that they found suspicious. It's pouring down rain. It's probably 11.30 at night. Pitch black dark. Something catches your eye across at the Herp's house. Chad, what do you see? I see the neighbors scrubbing the floors. I see them scrubbing the walls. We saw them bringing out black garbage bags.

They eventually brought out a rolled-up carpet. I didn't know what I was looking at. I had no idea. And I turned to Chad and I was like, what is going on? And Chad looked at me and he said, Kaya, I think they finally killed him. It was in June of 2020 when Linda Dane learned the disturbing circumstances of how her long-lost brother Gary's skull had been found by a dog in rural Barron County, Wisconsin. Yeah, it's kind of of a eerie type thing to think of, but it still led to finding out what happened, the truth. Linda says Gary, who was 57 when he went missing, was a loner with a difficult personality who rarely saw his own extended family, which is why pictures that exist of him are from

his younger years, seen here with his wife Connie. He could be stubborn, he could be crabby. It had been years since Linda and Gary had spoken, and in 2013, she learned from Connie that he had vanished, walking out on her and their son Austin, seen here as a teenager. What did you think of that? I was shocked. I didn't know what to think. Linda says she found it strange that Connie had not reported his disappearance to police.

And it's like, okay, did you file a missing persons report? Did you report it? Did you do anything? And they did nothing. What was her reason for not reporting that her husband was missing? She didn't give us a reason. At Linda and her family's urging, Connie filed this missing person's report with the Elko New Market Police Department in Minnesota

where the Herps lived. In the report, Connie said Gary grabbed a suitcase and left in an older gray Honda vehicle. But she claimed she did not get a look at who was driving. Six years would pass before an investigative genetic genealogist, Robin Espinson would be able to construct a family tree that led to identifying the skull. We knew that we had found the identity of our dough as Gary Albert Herbst. Gary Herbst was originally born in North Central Wisconsin.

We located family members of his in South Central Minnesota. That's when Detective Jeff Nelson from the Barron County Sheriff's Office tracked down Austin and Connie at the retirement community where they both worked. I think it was a little bit of a surprise to them because we actually found out that both Connie Herbst, Anderson, Austin, worked at a nursing home. We basically walked in unannounced and met with both Connie in Austin. When you told Connie that you had found her missing husband, likely had been, found him. Was she excited about the news or was she stoic about it? Both of them were very stoic. Never even commented, well, at least we know what's him. It's like they just glassed over it.

Brent Peterson, a special agent with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, joined Jeff Nelson to interview Connie. She was not uncooperative. She was just trying to be helpful. At least that was the appearance. Did you get into the issue about why she didn't report her husband as being missing? Yeah, that was a red flag from the beginning. Here's Connie's answer about why she didn't report it. Oh, okay. He left on his own. I said I didn't think I had to. Connie told investigators she wasn't surprised Gary walked out on them because he had a troubled lifestyle. She described Gary as a drug He would use drugs and spend all their money. He just was described to us as just being a generally kind of a volatile, angry, unpleasant person.

How was he with Austin? Um, up until the age of 10, great. But at the age of 10, when Gary would start his yelling and screaming at me, Austin would step in between. Okay. Don't you yell at my mom? He were hating you in the 30-plus years you guys were married. Once or twice.

Yeah. One time he hit me pretty hard and blackened on my shoulder. The other time he actually hit me, he pushed me. I broke my toe. In his interview, Austin told investigators his father had become enraged the day he left and later learned he had stolen $5,000 in cash and his mother's wedding ring. I heard him banging around in the master bedroom. I'm like, okay, what's going on?

Looked in, he was packing a suitcase. He's like, I'm leaving. And yeah, he got in, some guy pulled up, picked him up. Connie told investigators she was at the library that day and remembered getting a frantic call from her son. He was, dad left. Dad left. He got in a vehicle with somebody.

Investigators soon realized that Connie may have lied to them. Why? because in her missing person's report, Connie had said she was home when Gary walked out. We're suspicious of their stories right away. So there was a lot of things. This didn't match up. Connie added to investigators' suspicions when she gave yet another new detail. The 40-caliber gun was gone. And that was mine. Connie had never mentioned Gary had stolen her gun when she first reported him missing. So there's a lot of oddities that she's telling.

Had she said something in your mind that was particularly incriminating? I wouldn't say incriminating, but I strongly felt she had certainly knowledge of his murder. I figured she had some form of involvement. So investigators redoubled their efforts to try to learn more. So there's a lot of working pieces going on. Several months passed before investigators were ready to interview, Connie and Austin a second time. This time, they dug deeper into Connie's claims of abuse.

So, you know, your mom talked with some abuse issues in the family, how you were very protective of her. Yeah. And we understand that. I'm right. It was more of the fact that I hated when he would sit there and yell at her and would upset her. And the more investigators questioned Austin, the more he began to blame his father for his own demise.

Yeah, he was an angry guy and stuff, but I never expected that it would get to the point if someone would want to kill him. Directing attention toward a mysterious man with tattoos, he says his father drove away with. Do you remember a guy with a black shirt and tattoos? That's about it. It's as far as I can get,

and that I got a really uneasy sense about it. That was it. Gary Herps went missing in 2013. A dog found his son. skull in 2017. And by June of 2020, investigators suspected his own family, his wife Connie, and son Austin Herpes were somehow involved in Gary's disappearance and murder. There's some follow-up questions and information we need to gather to try to piece all this together. And during their second interview, they consented to a polygraph. The investigators from Wisconsin had

arranged with the FBI. They both agreed to take polygraphs. Line detector tests are generally not admissible in court, but investigators will use them as a tool to judge an individual's credibility. What were the results? Connie did not show any signs of deception, but Austin did. An investigator from the FBI confronted Austin. So I'm very convinced, but you clearly know what happened. I don't. I'm telling you. You can't walk away here saying you don't know anything because you clearly know something.

No. Whatever it is, you've got to tell me. I suspected that the guy in the truck wasn't exactly friendly. Just the look I got from he was, look sketchy. Either you're involved with your mom and killing your father or you're involved with someone else in killing your father. I'm not involved with it. I'm just going to tell you saying my mom's involved with that is pretty out of this world.

Detectives say Austin continued to draw the investigator's attention toward the man with tattoos, he says, picked up his father that day. Tell me, describe what you're talking about when you talk about the look of him. Tants came out with a black A shirt that was all ripped up. Doesn't make sense. None of this makes sense. The first interview, he recognized. calls his dad getting into a vehicle and leaving. Then that changed to, he remembered some heavily

tattooed man that looked, in his words, to be some sort of criminal that was the driver of a vehicle that his dad got into. So the story changed and morphed each time you talked with him. Investigators suspected Austin's story was pure fiction. I just find way too many inconsistencies in your stories. I mean, with your story, with your mom's story. And did you feel that story was rehearsed? Certainly. That he was trying to recall a script.

Script. But a feeling isn't evidence, and investigators had no choice but to let Connie and Austin go. Next, they headed to the family's old neighborhood and former home. Ironically, to a T, all the neighbors remembered Gary very well. Detective Nelson says that to a person,

they described Gary as, a mean, horrible human being. We repeatedly heard the term the biggest that you'll ever meet. If he was mad at a neighbor, apparently he had a pipe organ, and he would set up big speakers in the windows, and he would blast pipe organ music into the neighbor's house. In the wintertime, when he would get mad at a neighbor,

he would take a snowblower over and purposely blow and fill people's yards up in the middle of the night. With snow? With snow. With snow. He was just an evil person. Neighbors, Kaya and Chad Crammel's house was right behind the Herp's house. They say Gary often yelled at their two daughters and was caught secretly recording them on video.

I looked in their back window, you could see the red light from the camera on. And I walked out there and I could see the camera and Gary behind the camera. This is a video camera. camera like camcorder and he was just staring at me blatantly like on purpose wanting to you know almost show me up and be like yeah i'm recording and i sat there and i was raising my head like are you kidding me chad filed an incident report with police it sounds like this has a psychological component to it like he was messing with your mind absolutely i feel like he wanted power and he wanted everyone to know that he had that power. He most definitely tried to exercise that power by messing with people, neighbors.

Another neighbor, Jason Grimm, says he experienced that firsthand when Gary complained about the time he was snowblowing. He came out and started screaming and shouting at me, telling me I was going to flood his basement. Did you feel like he was a little dangerous? I never feared him, just surely because it was all bark, no bite. Did you feel he was a dangerous man? Absolutely. And did you the same way? Absolutely.

And when investigators interviewed Dee Hamlin, the new owner of the house where Gary and his family lived, they learned something that would confirm their suspicions about Connie and Austin. Over in this area right here, before the closets were put in, Somewhere over here, there was a big red stain. Go behind the scenes of one of TV's most watched true crime series with the 48 hours post-mortem podcast. Follow and listen to 48 hours wherever you get your podcasts. When investigators canvass Gary Herp's old neighborhood, they uncovered a trove of new clues from the time around his disappearance.

People didn't like him, we're afraid because he was very confrontational. Neighbors Chad and Kyah Krammel recalled a storm. Thunder, lightning, everything. Like, it was crazy. And unusual activity in Gary's backyard. It was maybe midnight-ish, and we looked out the window. I see a truck backed in the backyard. The truck was pulled right up to the sliding glass door,

which we knew was super strange because Gary was very particular. with his yard. He did not like anything out of order. Chad and Kaya told investigators they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors in the middle of the night. You could see directly from those windows into their house. Absolutely. And loading large garbage bags into Gary's truck. They were also carrying out a carpet or some sort of rug and also throwing it in the back of the truck. So we were watching the scene, and I turned to Chad, and I was like, what is going on? And Chad looked at me, and he said, Kaya, I think they finally killed him.

And did the two of you ever think we should share what we've witnessed with the police? Absolutely not. No, in a matter of fact, because... He was horrible. And soon after that night, they say Connie and Austin seemed completely different. It was good. It was fun to see them actually happy. A few weeks later, their neighbors saw them setting up a yard sale.

So everybody started filtering over there, myself included, and we were looking at all of the things that they had for sale. And what was for sale? Men's clothing, men's shoes, there were tools, ammo boxes. Now, did you ask her, where's Gary? Yes. And the answer was that he didn't want to be married anymore, and he left. Jason says he scored a bargain. I did.

Bought a riding lawn tractor. Neighbors say Austin and Connie began happily walking the neighborhood, offering up baked cookies. And do you think his disappearance in some ways liberated their lives? Absolutely. Their steps were lighter. It's nice not to have them roamed. All of a sudden, Connie and Austin, they would be out in the yard. stopping and greeting people where none of that happened prior to the date that Gary allegedly left.

The next break in the case came when investigators obtained a search warrant for the former Herbst House and notified the new owner, Dee Hamlin, that they would be bringing in a cadaver dog, along with her handler, police officer Dan Moldenhower, to see if she could detect the scent of human remains. So this officer said there may have been someone killed inside the house, and they wanted a dog to come in to see if they picked up any odor of death. I go, absolutely. When you got that call and you brought Radar out here, this is the very house you came to, correct? Correct. Radar is the cadaver dog who searched Dee's house.

She came back to the scene, along with her handler, to show us what she did that day. What radar wants to get inside, I'll tell you. Yep, and I follow her. I was present when the dog originally came in. I was there for the first sniff around. Hamlin says something in the garage caught Radar's attention. Radar concentrated heavily against this wall and on the brick behind the drywall pieces and the boxes.

Radar, find it. Radar's search continued inside the house. Radar would run from space to space, room to room, and almost like he had a pattern, and then we went downstairs, and that's where he slowed down. According to Radar's handler, the dog detected the odor of human remains around that red stain D had seen. She just went straight to this room, ignored every other thing else, came back, went along the wall, and then came to the corner where that closet door is. That wasn't the only area that Radar was interested in. She had a lot of order here. I mean, she checked all the walls before she came back and sat.

So there was definitely a presence of some sort of material. The guess is blood around this sliding door. Yes. Crime scene investigators tested the spots with Luminal, which indicated the presence of blood in the areas where the cadaver dog alerted. When you have the luminal literally lighting up, what is it suggesting to you? Well, it's certainly consistent and corroborates what the neighbors saw. We believed Gary was most likely murdered inside that particular house.

That's when they called Connie and Austin in for a third interview. So we went to your old house on Wagoner Way and just had a look. Trying to piece together Gary's kind of last movements. and there was some blood. Okay. Connie said Gary, who was a machinist, often worked on projects and sometimes accidentally cut himself. Usually use his fingers.

This blood that we're finding is a bit more significant than just a little cut on finger. Oh, that I wouldn't know. Investigators also questioned Connie about what the neighbors reported seen. Some witnesses saw what they thought wasn't rolled up rug being loaded in the back of the pickup. No?

I don't know. We didn't have any carpet. Just up in the living room. Her body language was, to me, was like she was defeated. Phil Naraki, a captain with the Scott County Sheriff's Office, was also present at the interrogation. Like, as long as I can continue to deny everything, I'm going to be okay.

But she didn't get rattled. Very soft-spoken. Did she sense she was in real trouble, do you think? Yes. I think she knew at that point that all the evidence was starting to gather up against her and Austin. Investigators continued to press Connie. So it sounds like Gary was a little psychologically abusive with you guys. Yeah.

What about physical abuse? One time he hit me. Not that I didn't probably deserve it because I got pushed too far. For Austin's interview, cameras were rolling as he was grilled by Detective Jeff Nelson. Do you feel that he was the husband that you should have been to your mother? No. And you stepped in and intervened several times. Did you not?

Yeah. Okay. You became a protector. Yeah. Okay. Which I would have to, with culminated. in July of 2013, and we took action to protect him out. Did you pull the trigger and put the round in the back of your father's head?

But no matter how many times Austin was asked that question, he never answered it. Once again, Connie and Austin were allowed to leave the police station. And that was a strategic plan that we had come up with, knowing full well that if we needed to arrest them, we'd be able to find them later. Now, investigators believed they had enough evidence to bring the case to prosecutors. There was some reluctance. There was no confession. It's simply a circumstantial case, albeit we felt it was a very good one.

And on November 19th, 2020, around 7 a.m., Connie, then 62 years old, and Austin, 26, were taken into custody. I tell Austin that he is under arrest for the murder of his father. The two would eventually be charged with second-degree murder. Connie had already declined the final interview with us and had been taken away to the jail. But this time, Austin was ready to explain everything. To investigators... Do you remember where you shot him? Yeah.

And later to 48 hours. And what do you do with his bomb? I sling them over my shoulder and I walk into the forest. It is not hard to destroy a college. Last season, the podcast Campus Files brought you stories of fraternity drug rings, stolen body parts, campus cults, and more. And now Campus Files is back for another season. There's a guy I screaming into his phone. He's like, I just saw Charlie Kirk Casinated right in front of me.

Every week is a new episode and a new story. It was so chaotic. It's almost like a university on a siege. Listen to and follow campus files. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Was it you or your mom and pulled the trigger? For more than four hours, Austin Herps was grilled about his role in his father's murder. What's it going to be, Austin?

Was it you or your mom? Did you get the gun, Austin? Yes or no? Is that fair to say that you think that you protected her and you feel that you protected her that day? Yes or no? Finally, Austin broke. He said something to the effect of, I might as well tell you what I did.

I said, Austin, that's what we've been asking for. On that day, when my mom came home, he blew off the handle, so I grabbed the gun, under the problem. Austin would tell investigators all about what happened that day. And now, for the first time,

he is sharing his story with 48 hours. My father, Gary Herbst, was vindictive to an extreme that I have never seen in anybody else. He was cruel, he was petty, he was violent. Did you reach an age in which you came to fear your father, or you felt like you were walking on eggshells? Very early. I'd say by six, seven years old, that fear was present. Austin says the emotional road he traveled that led to killing his own.

own father was filled with acts of violence and abuse beginning when he was a boy. Details he didn't share in earlier interviews with investigators. He proceeded to put a cigarette out on my arm and I screamed and cried and ran. I did something wrong, picked me up by my throat and threw me like down a flight of stairs. Austin says his mother was treated even more brutally. Terribly. unbelievably so. Physical abuse on a weekly, sometimes daily basis,

always demeaning, always negative. Did you ever see a time in which he drew blood from your mother, from striking her? Yes. He punched her right in the face, pure black and blue the next day. She had blood leaking from her mouth. Psychological abuse, physical abuse. Yep.

You swear on everything you believe in, and you're telling me the truth. Absolutely. Austin, just 19 years old when he murdered his father, recalls that tragic day, July 8, 2013. The start of the day seemed very normal to me. Austin remembers playing video games that afternoon when his dad returned home from work. Had he been drinking that day?

Yeah. He drank regularly. Aroundabouts, I'd say, I think it was like 2 or 3 o'clock. My mom came home, and she and, and him got into an argument about money. There was yelling. I tried my best protector. I am a wall.

I will not let this continue. Austin says his mom went to the public library. My father at this point was laying on the couch half asleep. And as I walked out, I noticed that that skirting was like crumpled up. I lifted up the skirting and I saw the firearm. Satistal. Yes. Austin says his father had never brought a gun.

into the living room before. In my heart of hearts, I knew that my mother's life was in danger and by extension my own. It all just culminated like, oh my God, he's going to kill her. All these thoughts ran through my head almost instantaneously, and I reached underneath the couch, I grabbed the gun, I pointed at him and I pulled the trigger. You know, it was surreal almost, right? Like the bang went off, my hearing popped, and it was a little.

It was just immediately, there was almost like a numbness. I've never asked this question in all my years on 48 hours. What was it like to pick up that pistol, pointed at your father's head, and pull the trigger? It broke me. It changed who I am irrevocably. I can never be the person I was or even the person I would have become had that never happened.

But that moment, are you anguished over, what you had done, are you horrified? There was a level of relief, knowing that I would never again have to have that fear, having to worry about my mother's life, having to worry about my life. Austin says he called his mother at the library and told her to come home. And how does your mom react to this scene? Sort of the same way I did. Sort of just stunned.

Austin says he placed his father's body wrapped in a rug in the trunk of their car. They drove into neighboring Wisconsin. What are you and your mom talking about? We aren't. At that point, the adrenaline's still rushing. It's still fear. About two hours later, Austin and his mom pulled onto a field next to a patch of trees. He says they dumped Gary's body at this spot and then fled.

I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. What do you mean? wildlife take care of the... Their foxes, they would devour the body, the bones would be scattered. Nobody would know. That seems a bit barbaric. Absolutely.

I was not in the state of mind that I ever want to revisit. I was at the lowest I'd ever been, both in my emotions and in my humanity. We do have information that he was not a pleasant person to be around, but being an unpleasant person does not rise to the level of being a domestic abuser. With no evidence, Austin acted in self-defense. Prosecutors Mike Groh and Sarah Wendorf said Austin and Connie would be charged with second-degree murder.

What Austin described as happening was not an emergency situation. It did not rise to a self-defense offense. Your life while he was sleeping there on the couch was not. not under imminent threat. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't legally self-defense. This was murder. Correct.

And as prosecutors prepared for trial, they questioned whether there was more to Connie's role in Gary's killing than Austin had admitted. Do you at times wonder to yourself, could Connie have pulled that trigger? As prosecutor, of course, I wonder about that. I shot my father because, If I hadn't, I would have been dead.

My mother would have been dead. What are the options that his son could have done other than kill Gary? He could have grabbed the gun and left the house and told the police what had been going on. Prosecutor Mike Groh. All of those things are possible and very doable except shooting him in the head,

which is the last thing that a civilized person would supposedly do. Once Austin Herbs confessed to killing his father, he agreed to plead guilty to second-degree murder. It was what we call a straight plea, which means there was no promises made by the state as to what you would get. Connie Herbs pleaded guilty to aiding an offender, accomplice after the fact. Austin said, yes, I was the one that killed my dad. And then that's when we decided Connie would be charged with the aiding and offender after the fact. Without a trial, prosecutor Sarah Wendorf says there were many unanswered questions about Austin and Connie's claims of physical abuse.

We have never seen any information to suggest that there was any abuse that Gary had committed against Austin or his wife. They never said anything until they were in trouble. And then they told these reasons why they were abused. The prosecutors in this case say, well, there's no real evidence that any of this happened. Of course. And I can't refute that. I can't refute that there is no evidence that occurred. It is all hearsay. Austin told 48 hours he and his mom had never reported abuse to the police, friends, or extended family members because they feared for their lives at the hands of Gary. I've been told, if you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know, go your own way, I will find you and kill you. Another question for prosecutors involves Connie's whereabouts on the day of the murder. You said that your mom was at the library at the time that your father was shot, correct?

Well, prosecutors say investigators were never able to find evidence that that's true, that she was there. and they wonder if your mother was the one who killed your father and that you, as her protector, have told a story where you're taking the responsibility for something that she did. My mom would never allow me to take a fall like that if she had done that. And I need to ask you that question. Did your mother, Connie, shoot and kill your father? I'm telling you right now, on every...

Everything on whole deer. My mother did not shoot my father. Prosecutors said a potential motive for Gary's murder was hate, illustrated by how Austin left his father's corpse in these woods to be eaten. That is inhuman. That is barbaric. Inhumanity that at the time seemed to have left Austin overjoyed. I experienced more happiness afterwards than I had from

my entire 18 years of living with him. You're having cookies with the neighbors while your father's corpse is being eaten by animals. Yeah. It was a strange dichotomy. It actually brought me a sense of almost shame that my happiness is on the feet of the ultimate act of violence. It still makes me wonder what kind of person I am

that that could have happened. At Austin Herp's June 2021 sentencing hearing, at the Scott County District Court in Minnesota, prosecutors asked that he be sentenced to 30 years in prison. I made it clear to the judge that he deserved the highest sentence because of the callous way that he was killed and the body was treated. But Judge Caroline Lennon said she found Austin's claims believable. In her ruling, she said, I find it credible that you believed that he was going to kill your mom. And later said Austin felt an underlying obligation to protect his mother.

He was sentenced to 12 years, six months, and will be eligible for release in 2029. It's horrendous because if we allow that kind of justice to go, nobody's safe because they'll say that I have been abused. That's why I did this. Gary Herp's sister Linda seemed a bit overwhelmed. 12 and 8. That does not seem very relevant to someone's life. It seems very, very light.

Eight months later, Connie Herps was back in court for her sentencing. We also recommended for Connie the highest end of the guideline sentence, which was 57 months. That would have been almost five years in prison? Yes. But the judge decided Connie would get two years and three months. Under Minnesota sentencing guidelines, she served just three months behind bars and was released in May of 2022. I think that he was psychotic. And back in the small town of Elko, New Market, Minnesota, where the murder took place,

a few of Gary Herp's former neighbors had hoped Austin and his mother Connie wouldn't do any hard time for a little. Eliminating a man they considered a monster. I felt sad because I didn't really want them to be caught. I don't feel that they're a danger to society. Jason Grimm even had a message for Austin. I hope he's doing well, and when he gets out, please look us up. I'd like to help him in any way I can. Really?

Yeah. Do you feel in a way, though, he got a 12-and-a-half-year sentence. Was that too much? I think it's a little bit excessive. Hopefully he can pick up the pieces and move on with his life. Do you believe that what you did was justified? I believe that there are a lot of reasons why the act was justifiable. So under the same circumstances, you would still shoot him again?

I believe so. And when you get out, what do you want people to know about whether you will be a potential danger to society or a contributor to society. My only goal in life is to leave something behind that's worth remembering. This isn't it. This isn't it. I want to leave behind a legacy other than I killed my father.