American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 16.2 Abraham Lincoln

Episode Date: June 15, 2019

The war is on! The south want to secede and carry on enslaving people, the north want the south to stay (and mostly carry on enslaving people). However, Lincoln is more and more thinking that this whole slavery thing is a bad idea. If only he could get at least one half decent general and win the war, perhaps he could put an end to it…

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Abraham Lincoln Part 2. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is 16 part 2. It's the second part of Lincoln. Yeah, he gets assassinated in this one. Spoilers, Jamie. Spoilers. Oh, yeah. Spoilers. Sorry. Are you ready for this?

I think so. It's been a while since we recorded part one because of various reasons. It has been. But I know he's president now. Yes, yes he is. He's very clever. Yeah. He had a wrestling match. Yes.

He got a boat over the river. Yes. Near the thing. With the thing. By re-weighting it. Yes. There we go. He was haunted his entire life by turkeys.

Yes. Seeking revenge. You've got it all. Right, okay. You're ready to start this episode. Let's do this. Start on an empty room. How empty?

No people, but there's a desk. Okay. A chair, there's some important-looking paperwork. Right. The lower third says Richmond, Virginia, Confederate headquarters. Fourth of April, 1865. Ooh. You hear footsteps?

Clop, clop, clop, clop, clop, clop, clop A man enters the shot In fact, I'm going to say it It's just a big black shape enters Because it's really close to the camera And then you realise that it's a stovepipe hat Being held in someone's hand As the person walks past Stovepipe hat? held in someone's hand as the person walks past.

Stovepipe hat? What's that? A top hat. Oh, okay. Yeah. The kind of one Lincoln would wear. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, right. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, this hat is being carried into the room and then eventually you get to see that it's a man and say, it's Lincoln. You can tell it's Lincoln. He walks right up to the desk.

He walks around the desk. He looks around the room a bit. Isn't it Confederate headquarters? What? I'm guessing they're just one land or something. He sits down in the chair, smiles to himself. And says... Nothing. He just smiles.

He's not the smiling type though, is he? Oh, he is today. He opens one of the drawers and he just takes out one of the fancy pens and just pops it in his pocket that's his now takes a little sniff it oh but yeah he can say say one thing when he sniffs the ink from his new fountain pen he just says spoils of war and then pops it pops it in his coat pocket that's the kind of thing linker do. Yes, yes it is. And then, I'm going to fade to black this time.

No smash. Fade to black. It's like a Metallica song. Yeah. And Lincoln part two, but not that Lincoln. Yeah. Okay, that's how we're starting. Nice.

So I'm guessing it ends well. After that, he lives happily ever after. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, it's great. Goes to taking a show. Yes. Okay, so, the country is on the brink of civil war. Everything is going to pot. South Carolina went, remember, in

1860. At the end of 1860, Mississippi followed not long afterwards and then just like dominoes, day after day, Florida went, Alabama went, Georgia's gone, Louisiana's gone, and then finally Texas. All of those states have rebelled. They've decided to

join forces and become a confederacy. What does that mean? It means a group. Oh, okay. Yeah. It does sound better than group, though, doesn't it? It does. I think that was the first meeting. So instead of calling yourself like, we are the independent group. Yes. We are yourself like, we are the independent group.

Yes. We are the Confederacy. The independent group just sounds a bit naff. Yeah. I just kind of think it'll break up after a while. Yeah. Current UK politics joke for those not in the know. Ba-dum. Anyway, Lincoln has just been elected and he's got to deliver his inauguration speech, knowing that the entire country is falling apart around him.

He does his best. He's got one speech to try and turn everything around. Ah, bugger. It's got to be a damn good speech. It really has, yeah. There was a lot in his speech about how the federal government was important and cannot be ignored. Seriously, Florida, Mississippi, you got that? Got that Alabama? No? Oh, there you go. Is that California? He also said that his government would shed no blood unless forced to do so. That's nice. Oh, he's a nice pacifist. Oh, no, he's not.

Yeah. We will kill you and your family. Yeah, I'll quote him here. In your hands, and not mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. He's talking directly to the rebel states here. He has to shout quite a bit. Yeah. The government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without you yourselves being the aggressors. So he's saying if you want to start a war, you pull the first move. Yeah. You do it. Yeah. It's your call, big boy. That is almost exactly what he was saying. Nice.

Yeah. The old general, General Scott. Do you remember General Scott? He's still hanging around. Apparently just after the speech he muttered, thank God we now have a government. Now obviously there is only one issue that Lincoln has to deal with. Everything.

Everything. Yes. Well, Major Anderson has just sent word from Fort Somter. The fort was now surrounded and he was running out of supplies. Anderson's predicted that it would take a force of approximately 70,000 well-trained troops to lift this siege. And we have six farmers. Two of them have no legs. So what do we do about that? I guess their army's not that big at this point. Not really, no.

Because you need 70,000 because it's such a well-defended place. So mines. Place mines in the walls, blow up the walls. That'll make it easier. No, they want to defend the fort. Oh, in that case, take out the mines. Yes. Don't want that.

No. Anti-mines. They actually improve the strength of the wall when you set them off. Well, that's not the way this conversation went. Or if it was, that was shut down immediately. We've got stuff to do here. That'd be great, General. Well, Seward was now the Secretary of State. Remember, Seward was one of Lincoln's rivals within the party. Lincoln brought Seward on as Secretary of State, hoping that that bridge

would be mended. I guess they have similar ideologies. It's similar. Not quite the same, but similar. Yeah, definitely. So anyway, Seward was all for giving up on the fort. We can't defend the fort. If we try and fail, we'll look weak. So let's just give up on it. Well, you'd have to balance out what strategic value is it.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a fort for a reason, so it's probably going to have some strategic value, but may not be of this time. Yeah, and the political damage, perhaps it's not worth trying to defend it. Yeah, good point. And if we give up on the fort, whilst that's being done,

we can use that time to talk to the seceding states and maybe figure something out. Yeah. Yeah. So much did Seward think that this was indeed the way forward. He sent word that this was what was happening through to the new president of

the Confederation, Jefferson Davis. Oh yes. Yes. Oh wonderful. Yeah, he's just been elected so he's in charge over there now. Yeah, so Seward just sent word, like, yeah, we're going to do this. Seward, remember, is politics man through and through. Yeah. In the old Whig party.

And yeah, he kind of thinks maybe he can push Lincoln around a bit here. I mean, Lincoln's just from the sticks, some lawyer. What does he know? Yeah, he can swing an axe. Yeah, exactly. But so what? And also, Seward wasn't the only person saying this. General Scott, the most wise and revered

military man of the age, was also suggesting to Lincoln that, yeah, actually, look, give up on the fort, we can't defend it. Lincoln was utterly amazed and horrified. His first act as president could not be to give in to the rebels. Yeah. It just

looked bad. Fair, fair point. But you'd have to be clever, though, because like you said, if they went to try and take it, or, no, if they went to defend it, and they lost, which there's a very good chance of that happening, that's massively humiliating. Yeah, it's a tricky situation. He's got to politic his way out of it. Well, what he does is he announces that he would indeed send supplies

to his men in Sumter, in the fort. So he wouldn't go there and attack and fight his way to the fort. He'd just send supplies. And therefore, it was entirely up to the Confederacy whether they started shooting or not. Nice. Clever. Yeah. That's clever. So, Lincoln

issues this order and awaits some news. Get used to this. This happens a lot. Okay. A lot of waiting around. Yeah. So you might want to be picturing this office that he's in quite well. If you've seen the film Lincoln, just picture that room. That's what I did whilst writing my notes. That's years ago.

Yeah. Oh, it's a dark room with maps on the wall. Okay. It's not oval. Yeah. It's still a square room that they're in. They haven't quite sanded around. Filled in the corners.

No. Yeah. Anyway, news does eventually come back. It's not good. The South, feeling betrayed after Seward's reassurances, that then completely fell through, had indeed opened fire on the fort when they saw it was being resupplied. Ooh.

Yeah. They allowed Anderson and his men to be rescued, to give them credit, but then they took the fort. Yeah. So there you go. So they drew first blood. Yes. They've kicked this off. And Lincoln made that happen. Yes. Lincoln kind of made sure that he didn't fire the first shot. He's not a bad guy.

We're the victims here. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, the cabinet needs to meet now because this looks like it is on. This would now end in disillusion of the Union or blood. Probably both. So, it was decided they would call for a 75,000-man militia to be created to put the rebellion down.

That's a lot of people. Rally the troops. Are there that many people in the US at that point? Oh, believe me, yes, because more than that die. Oh. It gets grim. Anyway, the next day, word is sent out, the war is on, rally the men, time to choose a side, dammit.

To Lincoln's dismay, people start choosing sides. Ah. Yeah, within days Virginia announced that they were off to join the Confederacy. Ah, bugger. It's fine. It's fine, said everyone. Virginia announced that they were off to join the Confederacy. Duh. Bugger. It's fine.

It's fine, said everyone. It's fine. It's a flesh wound. It's all right. It's all right. It's fine. Then Arkansas left. Duh. This is the equivalent.

You know Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where the Black Knight's getting both his legs cut off? Yes. This is it now. Then North Carolina. Oh. Yeah. Right. And then I can only assume the one that hit hardest.

Tennessee. Because that's where they make the whiskey. Oh yeah. And you don't want to lose your whiskey producing state. That's a massive release of states isn't it? Yeah. Yeah it is. It's still got Kentucky though and they make whiskey as well. And chickens. Yeah so it's fine. It's not too

bad. But yeah i mean this is a good chunk the the south you could almost call it of the country yeah has now pretty much gone so what you're saying is it's almost like a south versus the north kind of yeah some kind of north south divide that's what's going on why don't people just say that then i don't know yeah anyway lincoln decides to meet with Scott. Like I say, Scott's getting on his 75, but he is the most respected military man in the country. No, Scott, no.

Sort of. He was a little bit like that. I mean, he had led a force of 14,000 men in the Mexican War, so that made him one of the most experienced men around. Yeah. These numbers pale into insignificance in the upcoming war, however. Everyone has to learn very quickly. And also, Scott also points out he's a little bit too old

to be leading the Union troops. You get to an age and you don't want to be traipsing around fields, wading through blood and... With a dicky heart and a wooden bladder. Yeah, exactly. It's not what you want. No. So, he says, don't worry. I know a very talented general who can lead our troops. Dickie Hart and a wooden bladder. Yeah, exactly. It's not what you want. So, he says, don't worry.

I know a very talented general who can lead our troops. There is a very respected general who seems to be doing quite well called Robert E. Lee. Robert E. Lee? Yeah. Oh, I've heard of him. Yeah, yeah, you'll have heard of him. I imagine he turned size quite quickly. Well, Lincoln sent word to Lee, who was nearby.

He lived in Virginia. He really wasn't too far from the capital. And Lee was offered the position to lead the Union troops. You seem to be the best man we've got. People are saying good things about you. Would you like to lead the country back to unification? Leans back in his chair, strikes a match against a slave, lights his cigar.

Nah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Lee turns this down. Well, I don't know if he did the match thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, there was no way Lee was going to fight on the same side as those radical abolitionists. Yeah. Now, Lee cut very much from the same mould

as we've seen plenty of before. Lots of talk about how slavery is really bad. We'll do literally nothing to actually try and end it. Yeah. Although he actually goes one further and starts fighting to defend it, which really isn't great. No. He chooses his side. He decides to go and join the Confederacy himself and lead the troops against Lincoln.

So what he's saying is, he's a bad man. What I'm saying is that the most respected and brilliant general of the country has decided to go and fight for the other side. Oh. Anyway, so news also comes through to Lincoln after he hears about Lee's defection, that Baltimore's rioting. Oh, were they in a bit of a quandary? Half of them want this, half of them want...

Baltimore, obviously, is the main city of Maryland. Maryland, a slave state. Yeah, oh yeah. Lots of them there want to join the Confederacy. Yeah. And obviously, Washington, D.C. is on the border of Virginia and Maryland.

They really, really can't afford for Maryland to defect. No. Because if they do that, Washington is surrounded by rebel states. So yeah, as you can imagine, people started to really worry that Maryland was about to go over to the other side. Yeah. That would be a big problem. They'd lose the capital.

People start saying things like, where's this militia? I'm sure we ordered 75,000 men. At the moment, there's like Steve and Chad outside. They're not inspiring confidence. Lincoln was forced to agree to move Union troops around Baltimore rather than

let them pass through. He wanted troops to get to Washington. Baltimore was so against the idea that he had to avoid the city when he was moving his troops. That's how bad things were getting. Right. Although that didn't mollify Maryland enough, because

a delegation was then sent to Lincoln saying that they did not want any Union troops in their state whatsoever. Lincoln replied, whatsoever. Lincoln replied, our men are not moles. They cannot dig under the earth. They are not birds. They cannot fly. How the hell am I supposed to get my troops to me if we can't go through Maryland or obviously Virginia? Yeah. Yeah. So things are looking a bit tense. People in the capital are starting to wear secession badges. Oh dear. Bumper stickers. Makes lots of

people feel very uncomfortable and that kind of thing. Yeah. Many around Lincoln started to tell him that, seriously, the capital could fall at any moment. This is like a powder keg. We're about to lose the city. But then, the troops start to arrive. Yay! It breathes a huge sigh

of relief. Almost overnight, Washington turns into a vast military headquarters. At last, they can act. Lincoln and his cabinet decided that the first thing they were going to do was blockade the southern coast. This would damage the south. Stop trade, stop resources, because they can't get it from the north, so. Yeah, exactly. Nice. And they've got the ships to do it, so they do. Blockading the South was actually relatively simple.

But as you say, it stops trade. Who's it stopped trade with? Spain, Mexico, Britain. Yes. Third time's a charm. I'll cut out all the other countries you said before Britain. I'll just put that in. Lithuania.

Democratic Republic of the Congo. All of those. Yeah. But mainly Britain. Right, right Yeah And Britain They weren't too happy about this They made a lot of money out of the cotton

From the South of America They didn't want the South to be cut off But Lincoln and his cabinet Deemed it was worth it Because it would strangle the economy of the South And the war would be won quicker Yeah Yes

The biggest problem, after all, was not foreign opinion. It was Maryland, Missouri, and Kentucky. Because those were all slave states. Yeah. But still in the Union. Yeah. And it really, really was

only a matter of time, according to some, before they left. And if they went as well, it becomes less and less likely that the Union would win this. The noose tightens. So it's decided we're going to frame this war as a preservation of the Union. Yes, a lot of people were talking about slavery and abolitionism. The more people talked about that, the more likely it was the border states would leave. So you sort of hide that reason and say,

no, it's not about that. It's just about making So you sort of hide that reason and say, no, it's not about that. It's just about making, you know, we're fighting and cutting and killing them so that they are our friends again. Yes, yeah. It's very much, let's preserve the union. The union is how our country should be. No one's allowed to leave.

Yeah. We'll preserve it by killing everyone. Yeah. Perfect. No one mentioned slaves. Meanwhile, it was decided they needed to sort out their respective departments. It's always hard enough for a government to get up on its feet once it's been put into power. Yeah.

Yeah. This government was trying to do it during a war when there was such mobilisation of men that the country has never seen before. Yeah. Yeah, so it wasn't actually going too well. The departments were really struggling. The War Department in particular started to collapse under the strain. Wow.

Yeah, it just was not set up to do this. I guess they never imagined this sort of thing. Any war they'd had in the past would have been minuscule compared to... Oh, yes, yeah. And suddenly... Before, we were just going down south into Mexico. Killing the natives.

Yeah, killing some Mexicans. It didn't really bother us. Whereas the south have a lot of men and we've got a lot of men. So things aren't looking great, to put it bluntly. Lincoln had little time to deal with that, however, because word was coming through of the federal forts, especially Fort Monroe.

Lots of slaves were turning up to these forts seeking asylum. Are they going to be clever? You can be a soldier. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh. That would anger the border states. Oh. You can't anger the border states.

If they leave, everything falls apart. So they sent them to the border states. They turned them back. No, not quite. Put them in cages. We'll see, shall we? I we that's very in season yeah um the slaves were turning up and demanding asylum and they were being taken into the forts slave owners from the south were demanding that the slaves be returned to them under the fugitive slave act but we're at war you're a country. That can't apply to you now. That was made in Washington.

Yeah, I know. It's a bit rich, that one, isn't it? What? You can't leave the country and then demand we uphold the laws that you... Anyway. Yeah, that kind of argument went on for a bit. One of the generals in control of one of the forts had pronounced the slaves in his

fort as contraband of war. Oh. So if you describe slaves as property, then legally we can take them as contraband. So he just refused to send them back. Lincoln was worried, however. This is a little bit too close to emancipation. Yeah.

Yeah, and he's not said anything about freeing the slaves. No. He hasn't made any form of proclamation yet, has he? Exactly. I mean, after all, the border states, they're shaky. If they thought Lincoln was about to free slaves, he would lose them. So no, slaves must remain in the South and slavery must be gradually reduced. That was always Lincoln's plan.

That said, however, Lincoln could not see an alternative, really. He wasn't about to send runaway slaves back to the enemy. Right. So he approved the move. Yes, they can be contraband of war. After this, many slaves started fleeing to the north and declaring

themselves as contraband. Fair enough. Fine, you're calling me property? Fine. I'm now contraband. Then word came through. The whole blockade thing had finally reached Britain. And Britain were not happy at all. They wanted it lifted.

Yeah. Yeah, we want to trade with the South still. They had a lot of business and they didn't want to see it go. Seward in particular was outraged by this and wanted to send a threat of war back to Britain if they didn't just butt out. He is mental. You can't do that.

I imagine the cabinet room that day was, oh, so it, no. No. No. Or he just, door open, someone grabbed him by the mouth, just dragged him out of the room. No, no, no. He didn't say that. Carry on.

Well, on the other side of this argument was Sumner. Now, we've come across Sumner before. He's the man who was almost beaten to death on the Senate floor. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, he's up and moving again now. Oh, good. Yeah. In a limited way. Yeah. He's very, very anti-slavery. He's

radical anti-slavery. So he's very much in the radical Republican side. Right. Seward is much more of a conservative Republican. Okay. He found out about Seward's opinion of threatening war with Britain and was just outraged and shocked. He couldn't believe what he was hearing. You idiot!

We can't go to war with Britain and the South. What are you talking about? So he advised Lincoln a more diplomatic approach would be better. After all, if they angered Britain, Britain would recognise the Confederacy, the rest of Europe would follow. It's going to be a lot harder to declare the rebels as rebels if they've got all of Europe saying, yeah, they are a legitimate country.

Yeah. So we need to approach this carefully. Still, Seward's Secretary of State, so it's his job. He toned it down a bit, but he was still very blunt with Britain. That's fair. Yeah. And Britain, for now, backed down. Probably because they realised, hang on, America's literally ripping itself apart.

Ooh. We've been trying to do that to them for a while. Wonderful. Let's just sit back and watch, shall we? Oh, we love empire building, don't we? Yeah. More than likely, there's going to be two countries at least come out of this. And then we can economically dominate them all the easier.

So Britain decided to take a step back and not take a side. So Lincoln then settles into a routine. He studies maps. He inspects troops. He goes and inspects new weapons that are being invented, like machine guns. Oh, wonderful. Yes. These will come in handy.

This is what I really want, is to kill lots of people in a very fast, frantic kind of way. Yeah. Occasionally, he would go to the theatre with Mary. Oh, I love going to the theatre, don't you? It's nice, isn't it? Yeah, it's lovely. Yeah. But that was a rare occurrence. Most of his time was spent overseeing the vast army

that he was sure would put the rebellion down in a matter of months. By Christmas. Well, to be fair, it was a shaky start, but now it was starting to get up and running. The cabinet had every reason to be very positive. Okay. The North vastly outnumbered the South in population. Oh, really? I guess the South's bigger space but yeah yeah

more cities and stuff yeah we're talking like double population at least they're also far richer they had far more infrastructure built industry factories yeah railways oh yeah far more weapons oh gosh it's mechanized yeah i mean the North cannot lose this. It's like a mechanised city versus like an agrarian. So it's fine. We build up a huge army, a grand army in fact, and we'll just crush them.

So, they find a general because obviously Lee didn't fight for them so they found someone else. This was General McDowell. Although I warn you now, don't get too attached to any generals that I mention. Because one of the main stories about the Civil War is how Lincoln just could not find a decent general.

Is that because they get fired or they get dead? Mostly fired. Okay. Yeah. There's a couple worth noting, but McDowell's not one of them. I won't write his name down. No.

So, the troops are being built up. This is taking place over a period of months. The main rebel army is now 25 miles south of them in a place called Baldwin. Right. Although there is build-up of troops also in the west as well. Yeah. But I'm not going to focus on that for now.

Anyway, Lincoln suggests to Scott and McDowell that perhaps, you know, now we have been building and training the army for two months, perhaps you'd go and, like, attack? Go and put down the rebellion? Do a bit of offensive? Yeah. Because, I mean, it's great.

Any wage? You're doing all your drills and stuff. That's fantastic. But it would be great if we could put this down. Yeah. Preferably before Christmas. Like, you can't call yourself a football team until you play a match. Yeah, exactly.

So, can we get this done, please? The generals shook their heads. No, sorry, Mr President, we're not ready. The troops are far too green. Well, take the damn leaves off them then, man. Well, Lincoln points out that the rebel army was just as green as his. Yeah? Yeah, so why don't you go and take them and gain that experience that they need?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even so, it still took another month before the army did eventually start advancing. However, so confident was the mood in Washington that politicians and their wives travelled with this grand force to go and watch the show. No! Yeah.

This is almost like Roman style, isn't it? It really is. Have a jolly good outing, little Chad. You're coming to watch the slaughter. Yes, Daddy. Wonderful. Oh, bring the gardener as well. I'll give you one guess to what's about to happen.

Oh, decimation. Well, Lincoln watched them go, waved out of the White House window. Bye! Bye, good luck! See you soon! Try not to die! You're probably not going to be surprised to learn,

when news reaches them, it was of a full Union retreat. Oh dear. Huge losses. Oh dear. By midnight, soldiers were returning in dribs and drabs. Someone who was at the battle that Lincoln knew. This is someone who'd gone off to go and watch it. He arrived

and reported to the shocked president that the battle had started really well, but suddenly the Union forces had turned and fled, running through the spectators with their picnic baskets and opera glasses. Really? Yeah.

Wow. Wow. So they then became Really? Yeah. Wow. Wow. So they then became the front line. Yes. Chad, quick! You brute! Get away from... Oh, you bent my opera glasses! You've just crinkled my picnic blanket, you monster! Oh, he stood on my scotch

egg as well. Lincoln and the rest of Washington braced themselves for the invasion of the capital that was inevitably going to follow. I guess that's quite disheartening. A little bit. You start off really jolly, like, yeah, this is going to be amazing, it'll be wonderful, then, oh, oh, oh. Yeah.

Oh. Oh. Fortunately for the Union, however, the Confederacy were just as confused in victory as the Union was in defeat. Scott got it right when he said everyone's a bit green. No one really knew what was going on and discipline wasn't brilliant. So obviously the lesson of no retreating hadn't been taught yet. Yeah, and also the lesson of if the enemy retreats, follow them and run them down and kill them and then invade their capital soon afterwards.

But no, the Confederacy didn't take advantage of this for various reasons. But one of them is that they just weren't quite disciplined enough at the start of the war. So yeah, no attack came. But predictive death counts did. Over 500 had died, and 2,500 had been

wounded. That's a lot. That's a lot of death. That's a lot of death. That's the kind of death we've been seeing in war so far. Mm. It doesn't stay like that. I imagine it's a lot worse. We start seeing ancient Roman numbers quite soon. Wow.

Yeah. Anyway, the blame game starts up, and Scott hinted publicly that it was Lincoln who had forced the battle. I didn't want to go and do it. The president forced me to. A shaken Lincoln decided, okay, maybe I made the wrong call there, and he decides to listen to Scott. Okay, well, what is it that you want to do, then? The plan

is to take important points in the East and the West. Namely, take the Mississippi. Control that river. That way, you completely encircle the South. Because we've already blockaded the sea. If we can blockade this river as well, we really hamper the South, because we've already blockaded the sea. If we can blockade the river as well, we really hamper the South's ability

to move things around. So let's take the Mississippi, and also let's take Tennessee, because we want our whiskey, and then move again into Virginia in coordinated attacks. That's the plan. We can still do this. Okay, bad start, but this is fine. It's a glitch. Yeah, it's a glitch.

500 person glitch. We've got the numbers. There's no way we can lose. We'll win eventually. Lincoln agrees. And also decides to fire McDowell. And replace him with the popular Democrat. So this is a Democrat that's still in the Union. Not all Democrats decided

to leave for the Confederacy. This Democrat is called McClellan. Now, do make a note of McClellan. McClellan was a very confident, proud 35-year-old with a massive moustache. That's all I need to know. He's a great guy. He didn't much like the Republican president,

but he was very proud of his new position. He impressed the president with the zeal that he put into reforming the army. Lots of new drilling went on. Lincoln inspected the troops and he liked what he saw. McClellan then wrote to his wife, and I quote here, I seem to have become the power of the land. I almost think that if I win some small success now,

I could become dictator or anything else that might please me. But nothing of that kind would please me, so I won't become dictator. Pops rubbing his moustache, twirling it at the end. Yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't say that unless you had. Yeah, I really wouldn't. Still, he's pleased with himself. Yeah.

Yeah, it's this young whippersnapper. Anyway, we've been talking about the East, but obviously things are going on in the West as well. California style? No, no, Western Frontier, Mississippi River area. Oh, because they're trying to take that and control the river. Yeah, in fact, I'll just point out now, the Civil War generally has an Eastern theatre and a Western theatre.

The Western theatre tends to be ignored a little bit because more politically is going on in the Eastern Theatre, and I admit we're going to do the same today. But, we have a person called Grant in the West and we have an episode on him. What's his first name? Is it Ulysses by any chance? Yes, yes it is. Is his middle name given an S?

Yes it does. So we'll have a chance to have a look at what's going on in the West in more detail another time, but just to give you have a look at what's going on in the West in more detail another time. But just to give you a brief idea of what's going on, Vermont, remember the first Republican presidential hopeful, is leading troops over there. And he just suffered a defeat to the Confederate forces. So he declared that all slaves in Missouri under rebel control were now declared free.

Oh, that's a problem for Mary London. You've got it in one. Lincoln was shocked. I mean, this could tear the border state away from the Union. This is a balancing act, and here's Fremont just throwing around proclamations. So he was forced to override Fremont's ordering him to reverse the order, which really did not go down well with the more liberal faction of the Republicans.

Yeah, you can see why, but, oh no, yeah, I get it. Many in the Republican Party start to mutter that Lincoln's going to lead the country through a war without dealing with the issue that started it. The border states are just about being kept under check, but now his own party's starting to

have doubts about him. So anyway, Lincoln's hoping that things will maybe settle in the West slightly, but then more reports come through. Fremont was not only incompetent, apparently, but he was also being creative with the funds, shall we say. So, like, putting money into dodgy investment companies, or... Certain things were resting in certain people's accounts. Ah!

That kind of thing. Yeah, apparently Lincoln said later he was convinced Vermont wasn't corrupt, but he was badly advised. Yeah, anyway, Lincoln was forced to fire him. So, it's not going well. All he's done so far is lose, and he keeps having to fire generals. See, Trump keeps firing people in his cabinet, and everyone moans about it, but Lincoln did it as well. Exactly. The parallels are uncanny. It really is.

Anyway, various reports of losses then start coming through to Lincoln, and a confused president starts to get angry. After all, the North had double the population of the South easily, and that included slaves. So, we've got double their population, but that counts the slaves they've got. And they're hardly going to fight. No. Yeah. So the North, it's like, we're richer. We've got better infrastructure. We're technologically more advanced. Why the hell are we not winning this?

What's going on? We have lasers, for God's sake. Yes. And why are the generals not willing to fight? Because he keeps sending orders to the West. Go and attack the enemy and nothing's happening. So is this a fault? You're probably going to answer this, but is it a fault with Lincoln in terms of hold it down?

You need to train your army. The size doesn't matter if they can't even hold their gun the right way. Or is it a fault of the generals just being meh? I think you could argue there's a mixture of a lot going on but i think mainly it's the fact that a country that's never had a real standing army yeah suddenly has hugely militarized yeah and it's hard to do that overnight yeah oh yeah and yeah it's you can't suddenly have perfect military precision in orders working. It takes generations to develop that.

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, Lincoln's getting frustrated, though. He keeps looking at his maps, going, we should be invading here. We should be attacking here. He's sending orders and nothing's happening. Then Scott has to resign. He is too old for this bleep, he said, which confused everyone. But he's getting old, it's the kind of thing he started saying.

Yeah. One reason, he couldn't stand the young whippersnapper McClellan, who Scott told Lincoln was greatly exaggerating the enemy troop numbers so he didn't have to attack. Oh, just saying. They got like a billion, sir. Two billion. I'd attack today,

but, you know, can't be those numbers, can you, sir? No, no. Six billion, I heard. I'd attack today, but, you know, can't be those numbers, can you? No, no. Six billion, I heard. Yeah. Scott accused McClellan of being a coward who was delaying action. Lincoln refused the resignation to begin with, but there's only so much he can do. Yeah.

The man can barely stand up on his own anymore. No. So, yeah, come on. So he finally caves. He's got to replace him with someone, so he replaces him with McClellan. Wonderful. Good caves. He's got to replace him with someone. So he replaces him with McClellan. Wonderful. Good choice. It doesn't start well. McClellan starts to resent Lincoln. The president kept badgering him. McClellan was a military man. Lincoln was a civilian. What does he know about military matters?

Mm-hmm. And this president kept turning up, telling his damn stories. Lincoln would turn up. That is brilliant. Ask what's going on. McClellan would start to answer, and Lincoln would just go, that reminds me of a story. McClellan would grind his teeth. So the General starts to actively avoid Lincoln.

This gets to the point of almost farce when he returns home one night and sees Lincoln in his living room. Lincoln's trying to pin the General down. That's fantastic. Find out what's going on. Lincoln's trying to pin the general down. That's fantastic. Find out what's going on. That's a comedy film one of those. We've been avoiding Lincoln all day. It's like, gets home.

Whew. Made it. Front door open. Lincoln's in the living room. MacLeod sippers on. Talking to his wife. Or he goes in. There's no Lincoln.

Decides to pour himself a whiskey. He goes to his drink cabinet. Opens. There's Lincoln inside. Oh, love it. Just sat in goes to his drinking cabinet, opens, there's Lincoln inside. Oh, love it. Just sat in there. Or opens his whiskey cabinet, no whiskey in there. Turns around, hand with a bottle of whiskey. Yeah. Whiskey, sir? Well, what actually happened

is McClellan took one look into his living room, realised the President was there, and carried on walking up the stairs and went to bed. Wonderful. Yeah. And who is in the bed? Ha ha ha! Series of the stairs and went to bed. Wonderful. Yeah. And who is in the bed? Series of comic events where he's just running around Washington. Yeah.

Lincoln just keeps popping up. In the shower. Yes. Every time he thinks he's gone away, he just hears a faint, that reminds me of a story. No! Run, run, run, run. Yeah, anyway, the two of them aren't getting on too well, as you can see. Still, Lincoln is busy doing other things,

because he's trying to grapple with the slavery question. What, for example, if they introduced a law that reduced slavery over three decades with compensation? As in, you're a slave for three, 30 years, and then... No, as in states need to get rid of slavery within 30 years, but you will receive compensation for every slave that is freed. Okay. That's the kind of thing Lincoln and his cabinet are starting to think about. We want to get rid of slavery slowly,

not just kind of get rid of slavery, but we do want to reduce it. So how would we start doing this? That's a good way. That's a nice approach. I mean, I imagine quite a few people that approach Sabre go Yeah, I can see that as a positive It's very much a compromise kind of situation

Yeah Lincoln's hoping that this is the kind of thing that lots of people go Okay I mean, life expectancy was, what, 50 back then? So, I'll be dead by then, yeah Go for it They could try it out in Delaware, they said Some people went, sorry?

Della who? Delaware. Oh, they're a state, aren't they? They've not been mentioned since literally the background episode we did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the freed black population in Delaware could then be taken and settled in Central America, they think. Lovely. Yeah, forced colonisation. Why not? Let's try some of that, they think. Lovely. Yeah. Forced colonisation.

Why not? Let's try some of that. That always works well. Yeah. Sumner, upon hearing about this plan, encouraged Lincoln to go forward. Brilliant. You're talking about freeing slaves. This is what I want to hear. But the plan hits a problem immediately. It was not going down well in the border states.

Yeah. It's like, no, no, no, no. You said you weren't getting rid of slavery. I don't want any of this getting rid of slavery slowly business. No. Just stop talking about that. We're not getting rid of slaves yet. Yeah. Well, Lincoln needs to keep them happy.

So he told Sumner that his personal thoughts were close to Sumner's, but Lincoln was the president of the whole country, not just the radical Republicans. Yeah. So Lincoln feels like he can't really press this. It's not going to fly. Yeah.

Anyway, back to the war. Lincoln decides to replace his war secretary after an investigation by Congress found that he was about as corrupt as those under Buchanan. Wonderful. Yes. In his place, Lincoln put the gnome-like Stanton. A little gnome of a man, apparently.

Very serious. His daughter, his wife, and then his brother had all died over the last couple of decades, resulting in him being a very serious man. It would, wouldn't it? Yeah. Under him, however, the War Department finally started to actually operate. I just... It just takes that organisation, that that um yeah audits were done

for a start what have we actually got yeah i imagine that was the first thing stanton said so what what do we have what do you mean you don't know right open your drawers every pencil counted we're gonna start with this office and work our way out yeah like you say they can finally see how much of everything they've actually got. And then they can start organising it. Yeah, because then you can budget it. Yeah, exactly. The two men, Lincoln and Stanton, were not too sure about each other to begin with, but soon developed a respect for each other.

They both realised they were doing a good job. Good. And they both agreed on one thing. McLennan, who was Stanton's friend, incidentally, needed to stop delaying things and actually go and fight. I'll quote here, the champagne and oysters on the Potomac must be stopped. You've got very much a general class that were just whining and dining. It's almost like not quite getting the severity of the situation, isn't it? Yeah.

So your lifestyle might not last another couple of months. Yeah, you really need to get a grip on this. Anyway, Lincoln decided to call on the General-in-Chief. It's time we turn the corner here. We're going to go and fight the enemy. He turns up at McClellan's headquarters, only to be turned away. McClellan was too ill for visitors, apparently. And also, he wasn't ready to tell anyone what his plan was for the next part of the war.

That's what I say when I don't have an idea. So you'll find out. You'll find out. Yes. I've got an idea. Yeah. It's all in here. Yeah. No, it's fine. No, no, I can't tell you. I'm ill. Yeah. Anyway, the lack of action was really starting to affect people's belief

in the president and many sneered that, and I quote, all was quiet on the Potomac. Yeah. Yeah, morale's starting to plummet, even though nothing's really happening. His own attorney general implored Lincoln to simply take charge of the army and lead it himself.

I'm an axe wielder. Yeah. Although the same man then went home and wrote in his diary that Lincoln lacked will and purpose. Probably because he said no, I'm guessing. Yeah. Although the same man then went home and wrote in his diary that Lincoln lacked will and purpose. Probably because he said no, I'm guessing. Yeah. However, Lincoln kind of got the message because he started getting military strategy books out of the library. Military strategy for idiots.

Yeah, determined to learn how to win wars. Was he reading that? Is it Sue? The Art of War. Yeah. Yeah, he's reading that. Wonderful. He listened to a Roman podcast to get an idea of who was good and who was bad.

I knew it. I should have the fighting ability of Caracalla and the morality of Caligula. No, sir. No. Wrong episode. Listen to the first one. The strategic planning of Julianus.

Sir, no. Pay one dollar. you can listen to the Julius Caesar episode. Wonderful. I've got a plug-in, I've got a plug-in. I'm impressed, that was good. So yeah, after a bit of reading and a bit of looking at his maps, Lincoln was feeling a bit more confident and sent word to his generals fighting in the West. Why exactly are none of you actually fighting?

When is the earliest you will be ready to attack the enemy? Send me details immediately. All he got in reply was that they were not ready. They needed more men. Stop saying that. Yeah. Do something. MacLennan was still out of action.

He was ill still, apparently. So a frustrated Lincoln announced that if MacLennan wasn't using the Eastern Army, perhaps he could borrow it. Yeah, that kind of perhaps if MacLennan wasn't using the Eastern Army, perhaps he could borrow it. Yeah, that kind of perhaps made MacLennan realise he needs to start doing something. Oh, coal's clearing up. Yes. Well, Lincoln had devised a plan and shared it with the War Secretary, Stanton.

It was fairly simple, really. Attack. Yeah. All Union forces would simply all attack at once. The Confederacy would not be able to resist because they didn't have the numbers to defend all areas. Like, yeah, that's what modern hackers do. No, not hackers, but if you want to disrupt a survey,

you just bombard it. Yeah, exactly. Until it crumbles. By this time, McLellan had finally managed to drag himself out of his sickbed and turned up to a cabinet meeting with all the leading generals. Oh, hi guys. I know you were worried about me. Well, yeah, apparently the meeting was quite uncomfortable with lots of awkward silences

and mutterings and a breath and... Idiot. Yeah. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. Anyway, McLellan announced that he did have a plan after all. He told them, I've got a plan. What are you doing making plans without me?

I've got a plan. I know what I'm doing. Why are you a bunch of civilians attempting to plan this war? So he was then asked the obvious question. So what is your plan then? I can't tell you. Is what he said. Yeah.

It's like, no, I can't say. There are too many people here. There are people who just cannot keep secrets. And he said that while staring right at Lincoln. Ooh. Yeah. So when does he get fired? Not yet. Lincoln lost all patience and pulled the president card, which I like to think was a literal card that he kept in his pocket for emergencies. It's just a silhouette of him in his hat with the word

President next to it. He'd had enough. Yeah. Everyone was to attack. I am in charge. You are all attacking East and Western fronts. Forced into a corner, McLennan then eventually caved and told Lincoln his plan. He was planning to take the Eastern forces down the Potomac

and strike at Richmond, the Confederacy capital." Fine, says Lincoln, that's fine. That fits in with my plan, which was basically just attack. Someone please attack! So yeah, go and do that. So, off they go. Lincoln waited, and waited, and waited some more. Finally, some news comes through. The two attacks in the West were actually working. A young brigadier named Ulysses Grant had impressed many. By taking a couple of Confederacy forts. Lincoln suggested promoting this Grant fellow to Major General. He seems to

actually want to fight. This is more of what I need. However, some personal things start to worry Lincoln at this time, and his mind is taken off the war, because the sickness was sweeping the capital and both little Willie and Tad had become ill. Little Willie and Tad. Tad because he looked like a tadpole. Willie because his name was William. Yeah, definitely that.

Anyway. Yeah, the illness of the two young boys had an effect on the White House because the two young boys had an effect on the White House because the two young boys were the life and soul of the White House at this time. Oh, little children playing. They're fighting for their innocence. Exactly.

Well, no, they were running around and causing a nuisance. That's what they were doing. Stop drawing on the wall! Yeah, well, sort of, yeah. They'd sneak into the kitchens and they'd eat all the food, especially the delicacies that were being prepared for official dinners. That's the ambassador! Yeah, it's like all the strawberries went one day for a steak dinner.

It's like, oh, they're gone. You can just imagine how angry the chef was that day. Tell them off, it's the president's children. Oh, you little angel, you! Crabs him by the neck, he rubs his hair. Oh, I could do this all day. He's going blue, chef. Yeah, they'd occasionally just barge into meetings that Lincoln was having

with official people demanding a pardon for one of their dolls. Lincoln was more than happy to do this and pulled out some official paper and wrote, and I quote, The doll Jack is pardoned by the order of the president. Oh, that's really sweet. Yes, they got an official pardon, which is nice. Can't imagine Trump doing that, can you? Don't you know little, is it

Baron walks in? Oh, my little toy needs a pardon, Daddy. I could imagine it with Eric, though. Yeah. Little Tad soon learned a trick, which was to stand at the bottom of the grand staircase and charge visitors a nickel to go upstairs. That is fantastic. Which I imagine it was, oh, you wee scamp have a nickel.

But I'd like to think there were some people who were like, do I have to do that? Is this genuine? I don't know. There isn't a sign. I mean, the ambassador to Britain just went up and he paid a nickel. Maybe I've got to pay a nickel. Have a nickel?

And he just drops it into a pot that a few months earlier would make a big hollow doink. So now it's just a go, chink. It's so full. One particularly fun day, Tad discovered the attic. Oh. One particularly fun day, Tad discovered the attic. Oh. Inside the attic was all the inner workings of the bell system that ran through the White House.

Oh, that'd be so tempting. Yeah, many important rooms were interconnected via bells, so you could alert people that they were needed. Dealing, yeah. Oh, yes. Tad spent a merry afternoon ringing all the bells and giggling as the White House was sent into pandemonium. Eventually, he was found. Probably with a big grin on his face, just pulling at cords. Oh, Tad.

Little scamp. Grab him, grab her. Yeah, so the White House seemed subdued, understandably, when the boys became ill. But the chef was loving it. The chef was loving it, but everyone else was a bit sad. The doctor was called, and Mary and Lincoln were reassured that everything's fine, it's not severe. They just need to rest, basically. And the family attempted to continue with the routine of meetings and dinner parties and formal events.

But it was soon noted that Willie wasn't actually getting any better. And soon the parents were spending all hours with their son. On the 20th of February, William died. Mary collapsed completely and Lincoln went into shock. It's a sad look on Jamie's face for the listener's benefit. It's really sad.

It's really sad. We know that Lincoln's coped with depression previously, so this isn't going to help that. It's not ideal timing. I mean, that's just selfishness from William's part, but... Too soon, James. Too soon.

Yeah, the White House ground to a halt, as you can imagine. Black drapes lined the walls. Mary couldn't attend the funeral. She was too distraught. But almost all officials in Washington did. It was't attend the funeral. She was too distraught. But almost all officials in Washington did. It was a very public affair. Mary didn't recover quickly, if indeed at all. No. For months she refused to eat. She would just wail for hours. She started to speak as if Willie and Eddie, Eddie remembers the child that died last week, visited her at night.

Oh. Yeah, it starts looking really bad. After weeks of this, a very worried Lincoln pulled Mary to a window of the White House and pointed across the landscape at a mental asylum that could be seen in the distance, and said my quote here, try and control

your grief or it will drive you mad and we may need to send you there. Tough talk. Tough talk, but did it work? Not really. Oh, no. I guess it wouldn't, would it? No. The relationship between the two, always patchy as we've seen, never really recovers from this.

Mary became very jealous of any woman that Lincoln talked to at any event, and Lincoln started to distrust his own wife, thinking that she chatted too freely to her friends. So he just stopped telling her things about his job, worried that what he said would end up in the papers. Which a couple of times it did.

Yeah. To add to Lincoln's woes, after McClellan finally moved into Virginia and attacked the rebel forces, they had pulled back. So the rebels had retreated. Well, that's good. Yeah. The victory was blunted, however,

by the fact that the rebel camp that they had taken was clearly a fraction of the size that McLennan had claimed it would be. For months, he had been saying the Union forces were not ready to attack, that they needed more men. Turned out that that simply wasn't true. They could have attacked ages ago. Bugger. Lincoln said that a lot recently, that they needed more men. Turned out that simply wasn't true. They could have attacked

ages ago. Bugger. Lincoln said that a lot recently, hasn't he? Yep. So, Lincoln makes a decision. All generals, from now on, report directly to Stanton. In other words, McLennan's demoted. He's no longer general-in-chief. Good. Yeah. Lincoln would act as commander-in-chief. Ah!

He's read some books. He's studied the map. He'll be fine. He also signed several bills that came through from Congress. The biggest one was the one that outlawed slavery in all territories. This is not states. This is the territories.

Oh, the ones that aren't quite states yet, but... Yeah, exactly. This is essentially reversing the Dred Scott decision. Oh, good. Yeah. Another bill started putting funds to one side to colonise freed slaves.

So we're going to need some money to send all the slaves off to Central America. So let's start saving up. Give us your cash. Finally, some good news. From the West this time, New Orleans has been taken. Another step to controlling the Mississippi is done.

But the good news from the West did not last long, unfortunately, as report after report came through of rebel victories pushing the Union back. Again, it just seemed that they couldn't cut a break. They're doing remarkably well, aren't they? The Confederacy. Yeah, is it because of Scott? Sorry, Robert. Or is it because there's just really bad generals in the Union?

A combination, yeah. Now, yet again, Lincoln found orders that he sent out were just being ignored or delayed. And yet again, he grew frustrated about how his army wasn't functioning smoothly. Then word came from McClellan outside Richmond. He had repulsed an attack and

won complete victory against General Lee. Wow. Yeah. Lincoln was ecstatic. Brilliant. This is fantastic. This is the end of the war, surely. Lee was in charge of the major rebel army. This is the end. Richmond's about to fall.

In fact, has he already taken Richmond? Find out. Go and find out what's going on. So Lincoln waits for a bit, and then more news comes through. It turns out that McLennan's idea of a complete victory wasn't quite what Lincoln's idea of a complete victory wasn't quite what Lincoln's idea of a complete victory was.

To Lincoln, it looks suspiciously like MacLennan had pushed back an attack from Lee and then retreated. Yeah, not taking Richmond at all. Oh. In other words, he hadn't died. That was Lincoln's reaction.

You could imagine by this point, he's quite frustrated with a lot of things that are going on. Well, then he receives a word from McLennan asking for 50,000 more men. Lincoln lost his temper and said the following. We don't have 75,000 men in the entire Eastern Theatre. The idea we can send you 50,000 men immediately is absurd. You d***.

Yeah. I'll beep that out. The next Lincoln heard from McLennan was to boast about how masterful his retreat had been. A masterful retreat? Yep. He had saved the Union army. It was about to be destroyed by Lee, but because his retreat was so amazing, he had saved the Union. That is the, that is

just making the best out of a bad situation. That's almost professional standard. Not finished. Oh. If Lincoln could simply send 100,000 men, McClellan was fairly certain he could win the war in six weeks. Have him killed. I almost imagine

Lincoln starts just doing the slow clap at this point. Oh really? Oh really? You know, I also think if I sent you a million men we could win within two weeks. We don't have the bloody men. A billion men? Five minutes probably. He's had enough. He decides

to go out and actually meet McLaren. Scene of Lincoln getting off the carriage. McLellan there, ah, Mr. President. Lincoln walking up quite stern face. McLellan peering around Lincoln's shoulders. So, did you bring the men with you?

And as that's happening, Lincoln just walking up faster pace, faster pace, arm outstretched. McLellan slumps to the floor. No men then. Well, he points out to McLennan slumps to the floor. No men then. Well, he points out to McLennan that the general had lost 23,000 men

so far. Wow. And had won nothing. That's a football stadium of people. Yeah, for nothing. Literally nothing at all. However, then Lincoln kind of looked around him after he looked up after spitting at McLennan on the floor probably.

He couldn't help but notice, actually, the army does look in a really good shape. And considering they just had to retreat from an advancing General Lee, maybe McLennan had a point. Maybe he did retreat quite well here. Maybe he did manage to keep the forces in order.

Payons be payons. Luton Lee puts his hand out. McLennan is pulled up. And then Lincoln just lets go. Haha. Kick. Still hate you. So Lincoln inspects the troops, tries to raise morale, and then announces that he's leaving.

McLennan then hands Lincoln a letter. It's not a resignation letter, is it? No. It's a letter of advice. Things Lincoln perhaps could do a bit better. Oh. Oh. You know when you get a kid in your class that does that? You ever had a child in your class that,

maybe so you should consider this. And it's like, you've got to put the smile on and say, I'll take that into consideration. But in your head, you know it's parents' evening next week. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not going to do well. No.

Do you want to hear McClellan's advice? Oh, yes. Yes, please. Lincoln needed to make sure that slavery was kept after the war. No one was fighting this war to end slavery. So make sure you do that. That was the official thing. Yeah.

But rumours are starting to go round that Lincoln wants to get rid of slavery. So nip that in the bud thing. Yeah. But rumours are starting to go round that Lincoln wants to get rid of slavery, so nip that in the bud, if you would. And also, you need to appoint an actual general-in-chief, because you're not one. McClellan offering himself for that one by any chance? Yes, yes, actually. I mean, he's got experience of doing it before. Oh!

Yeah. And down below is my list of people that could do their job. Number one, McClellan. Yours sincerely, C. Oh. And down below is my list of people that could do their job. Number one, McClellan. You're sincerely, see above. Lincoln, probably seething, goes back to Washington, but does reluctantly realise the wisdom of this. I mean, he's not a military man. Yeah.

So he arranges the appointment of a man named Hellock. Lincoln then has a visit from Sumner. He's got an idea. You keep talking about how you need more men. Well, you've got thousands upon thousands of men in your country willing to fight if you let them. Surely you should just let the black population join the army because they they will fight, and they will swell our numbers. Lincoln was warming to this idea. He had been for a while, but he felt that the damage would be too much politically. He's still got to think about those border states. However, to Sumner's delight, he was starting to waver on slavery itself. I'd like to think it's because McLennan handed him that letter. Yes! Fine!

Okay, I'll take your advice on board. In Congress, Liberal Republicans, Conservative Republicans and Democrats were all fighting over the slavery issue. Bills were being created that would free slaves of rebels. And they were debating them. Now Lincoln, seeing the tide turning here, decided to go one further. He was president and in times of war he could use his executive power.

So he proposed that all slaves in all rebel states would instantly be freed. This is the Emancipation Proclamation. So he's declaring law on another country. Well, that is one of the problems, of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the Confederacy see themselves as a different country, but the Union doesn't.

They're rebel states, so... Yeah, Lincoln proposes all slaves in the rebel states would be freed. The Congress had been debating that slaves of people actively rebelling would be freed, but Lincoln just goes, no, blanket, everyone in those states will be freed. Lincoln's cabinet was shocked by this. They've had no military victories to speak of in the North. They were not, and they all hated to say this,

didn't want to put too fine a point on this, they were not winning the war. They should be. It really should be, and we're not winning, so... You say you want to free the slaves? This is just going to look like a desperate last gasp of a losing sight. Why don't you wait until we've got a

solid victory, his cabinet told him. Lincoln probably ground his teeth at that point. I'd love to wait until we've got a solid victory. That would be lovely! When the army's... Still, Lincoln saw the wisdom in it, and he puts the idea to one side, but he promises in his head,

next big victory, first big victory we get, then I'll announce this, and it will sound like we're moving forward rather than retreating. I'm proclamating the hell of this emancipation. Yeah. So he starts working on this politically.

He met with prominent leaders of the black community to discuss colonisation of Central America, as I've already mentioned. I'll quote here, You have suffered the greatest wrong inflicted on any people, said Lincoln to the leaders of the black community. And they said, yes, we bloody well have. Well, I think they just kind of smiled politely through gritted teeth.

Yep. Lincoln then went on saying, the fact is that, but for your race amongst us, there would be no war. Without the institution of slavery, the war would not exist. Yeah. I imagine teeth will ground even more at that point. So let me get this right. Lincoln is possibly suggesting it's their fault this war's happening.

Yeah, there's a reason why he's their fault this war's happening. Yeah, there's a reason why he's doing this. He's trying to convince prominent black leaders to encourage the black population to volunteer to move to Central America. Lincoln is saying, look, we wouldn't be fighting this war if it wasn't for you, and it would be selfish of you not to consider moving. Yeah. Ooh. Not good. This is disgrace-gate. This is one of these things that isn't often mentioned about Lincoln. Yeah.

Yeah. That's it, though. Even the most noble, moralistic people we can think of at the time were still racist. Oh, yeah. Were still horrible people. Everyone was horrible back then. Lincoln's just slightly less horrible than everyone else. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. We're still horrible people. Everyone was horrible back then. Lincoln's just slightly less horrible than everyone else. Yes. Yeah.

Anyway, this meeting went well, amazingly. Yeah. Lincoln managed to convince these leaders that white and black people could not live side by side after the war. It's not hard to convince people of that back in this day and age. Let's face it, everyone's at each other's throats. The only way to avoid decades of civil strife would be for everyone to just get away from each other. That's his argument. So he asked this delegation to encourage others

to talk positively about colonisation amongst the black community. And the leaders that he met told Lincoln that they heartily agreed. Yeah, they were like, actually, that'd be wonderful. You know what, we're out of here because this place is awful. Bye! But they were very much in a minority,

as you can probably imagine. The average black person in the United States at the time was outraged by the idea that many had families in the country that went back longer than many of the white families in the country. Why the hell should they be the ones to leave? I loved it

if the leaders in the meeting went yeah, no, you're right. We should separate. After you. I hear Jamaica's lovely this time of year. Off you go, white people. We'll take the United States. That's fine. Yeah.

So Lincoln realises that this is actually going to be a problem. This isn't going smoothly. It was all a bit of a pipe dream. So he puts the issue to one side. I'll deal with that later. Yeah. However, the slavery issue was now all many could talk about, and Lincoln attempted to clear up his position. And I'll quote, If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it. And if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would also do that. And if I could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leaving others, I would also do that.

What I do about slavery and the coloured race, I do because I believe it helps save the Union. Hmm. He then went on to further clarify, I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, according to my view of official duty. And I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free. So that's quite clever. It's sort of, it's quite a bipartisan sort of message there.

Yeah, it is. It's politically I'm open to anything. So you can interpret me however you want. Personally, I want everyone to be free. But as president, I realise that that's not necessarily the way this is going to go down. I just want the union to be better and I'll do anything I can to do that.

See, I found this quote interesting though because the first line of that is a quote that is often used about Lincoln. If I could save the union without freeing any slaves, I would do it. That is often used by people who claim that Lincoln wanted slavery, which clearly isn't true That's just someone using these out of context. Yeah, it's taking it massively out of context

But it was interesting seeing the whole quote. Yeah, and he found it once. Oh, that's where that comes from Oh, that's been taken out of context Anyway back to the war in the West things had once more crawled to a halt and in the East more bad news Oh, yeah,. Two armies in Virginia, one under MacLennan and one under Pope. I'm fairly sure it was a general, not the Pope. Ah, but it was the Pope. But maybe the Pope popped over.

Ask Pontifax. Yeah, we'll get in contact with Pontifax then. Anyway, MacLennan and Pope were not cooperating as Lincoln wanted. Same old story basically. Yeah. This was then followed by devastating news that Pope had just been crushed by General Lee in the Second Battle of Bull Run. Oh.

Yeah. This one was a lot more deadly, though. Oh. And then things got worse. Lee went on the offensive and invaded Maryland. Oh. To Lincoln, this seemed the pivot point. This is it now.

Yeah. If they can defeat Lee in Maryland, he could claim that as a victory. He could issue his proclamation and free the slaves. If they lost, there was a very good chance that Britain would recognise the Confederacy. So it was to Lincoln's joy that MacLennan soon sent him word that he had won complete victory in Antietam. He said that before. Yeah, you picked up on it.

Yet again, complete victory did not mean in MacLennan's case what Lincoln thought it would mean. What do you think it should mean in this case? You win, you take the place, you can secure it, you have it. And what's happened to Lee? Possibly dead? Yeah, definitely not. Or captured?

Definitely not, no. In this case, complete victory meant that he had halted Lee, but not defeated him. Right. And then Lee had retreated back to Virginia. He's still intact. Lee retreated, I mean, that's a victory. It's a victory, but not a complete

victory. No. This was probably the conversation Lincoln was having. I'll give you victory. It's this complete part. Lincoln was angry, basically. I mean, yes, it's a victory, but come on, you could have defeated... Anyway, he's going to take this as a sign.

It's still victory enough. Yeah. He announced in the border states a gradual emancipation would now be the goal. With compensation paid, after all, you didn't revolt. Well done. Thank you very much. As for the rebel states, if they did not surrender

by the end of the year, he would free them of thenceforth and forever. Nice. Reaction to this was mixed. Black people, overjoyed. Yay! Yeah.

Radical Republicans, very happy. Brilliant! Democrats, outraged. You mother... Yeah. They were only working with Lincoln because he had promised over and over again that he would never do this. Yeah. Containing slavery is what you said, not freeing slaves.

Yeah. Support for the war took a massive hit, and in the following midterms the Republicans suffered heavily. Democrat McClellan was outraged. He was not leading the Union to victory to free slaves, dammit. Lincoln pointed out that McClellan wasn't doing much of anything. Yeah. Burn. McClellan hadn't moved for weeks yet again. McClellan angrily told the President that the horses were too fatigued to move. That's why he hadn't moved. Lincoln replied in our

quote here, Will you pardon me for asking what the horses of your army have done since the Battle of Antietam that fatigues anything? Lincoln finally had had enough with the mustachioed general and fired him. And in his place, he put... Are you ready for this? Yeah. General Burnside. I know him! Why do you know him personally he's what after

sideburns are named after oh yes he is ambrose burnside he is the original sideburns oh there he is there's a picture wow there's some nice hefty sideburns there that go into his mustache she needs a halo that is beautiful yeah the sideburns are named after him apparently it's uh in the the turn of the century burn sides for some reason flipped sideburns side of your face makes sense yeah that is amazing there you go a little fact for you the sideburns are out elego balis will be pleased yeah i mean to be fair they're around the 1700s but they didn't have a name then though no but look at them yeah, we'll be pleased. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, they're around in the 1700s. They didn't have a name then, though. No, but look at them! Yeah, exactly.

It's like his strap, like, lamb chops the side of his face. Exactly. I mean, how are they going to lose now? They're not going to lose now. They're not going to lose. So, with General Burnside now in command of the Eastern forces, Lincoln pushes on. Things don't go too well, however.

No. No, Burnside soon fought and then lost a huge defeat in Fredericksburg, suffering 12,000 casualties. Ah. Yeah, it's not great. One of his sideburns was sliced off as well. Yeah, it's devastating. Lincoln received word and kind of spun into another depression.

Just things aren't working. In a war that he had been told time and time again was unlosable, he certainly wasn't winning. On top of this, his popularity was plummeting. And also, his plan to move the slaves to Central America simply wasn't going to work. Some numbers have been crunched by this point. Some very clever chap down in accounts had worked something out.

Roger. Yeah. There is no way we can afford to do this. It would cost an astronomical amount of sum to move that many people to Central America. Let's put aside all the obvious problems that would be caused. We simply can't afford to do it. Still, one silver lining,

if Lincoln was hated as much as he was at the moment, it could do him no more political harm to include black men in the army. Yeah, if you don't go all in, do it. Yeah, so why not? The end of the year then hit, and Lincoln announced that all slaves in the rebel states were now free. The rebels had not surrendered, so that goes into effect. Now, as you pointed out, in reality, this does very little.

He didn't control those lands, so nothing really changes. But now the war was no longer being fought to stop the spread of slavery, but to end slavery. So he's changed the objective of the war. Britain and Europe were now far less likely to get involved. Britain had been banging on about how they are morally superior, because they got rid of slavery ages ago. So they can't come and support slavery. Lincoln then hears some reports that Burnside was a wreck. Burnside didn't have the heart to fight.

He'd seen too many people die. He had suffered a big defeat. That's going to take his toll, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, tens of thousands of people were dying regularly by this point. It was awful. Now, after some more defeats and accusations of a breakdown of command, Lincoln was forced to remove Burnside and then put Joseph Hooker in charge. And then Lincoln was forced to take another drastic step. They still needed more men because the men kept dying. Damn it. Yeah.

So it was decided to start a union draft. Ooh, okay. Yeah. Conscription. Yeah, this doesn't go down well. This causes even more troubles. Peace movements start to spring up. Draft riots start in New York, ending up with over 100 people dead.

Gangs of New York. Gangs of New York I was thinking of, yes. Yeah, this is now Gangs of New York, where Lincoln's twin brother is the leader of one of the gangs. Oh, yeah. Or like cousin or something. Yeah, yeah. Some kind of relative. Yeah.

Weird accent. Weird facial hair. Yes. We should watch both films. Oh, no. At the same time. Yes. Still, it's unpopular, but it does get the more men.

And Hooker's Potomac Army, by this this point is 130,000 strong. Wow. Like I say, we're getting into Roman figures now. Yes. So, it's time to finish Lee off once and for all. They can't lose with this army. Turns out they can lose with this army. Yeah, news comes through that Hooker was in full retreat from General Lee.

17,000 men had been lost in the latest battle. Oh. No, that's brutal. Yeah. Lincoln was reading from this news when message from Grant in the West comes through to him and I quote here, you may not hear from me for several days.

Mysterious. Mysterious. It's what you want from your military communication, I think. An air of mystique. A bit of suspense. I shall be a whisper on the wind. Lincoln, along with everyone else, held their breath. What on earth's this all about?

But finally, when news came through, it was good news. Grant had won several battles, and now was close to taking the last stronghold on the Mississippi. But things were going nowhere in the east against Lee. Hooker was then replaced with a man named Meade, so yes, another general. And finally, the two sides meet near a town called Gettysburg. Flash of recognition from there.

Do you think Lincoln will make any sort of address while he's there? I think he might do, yeah. Some sort of speech. I don't think he's going to do that just yet, though. It's a bit premature before the battle. Yeah, Lincoln was somewhat distracted by the news of this battle, however, because Mary had just been thrown out of her carriage when her seat was unscrewed. Nasty.

Ooh. Yeah, the screws came off this carriage and it just fell apart. She was fine, but very bruised and in pain. So Lincoln's dealing with that whilst the Gettysburg battle's going on. Reports come through. The sheer quantity of casualties was frightening. Over 50,000 men had died. Oh my goodness.

Yeah. It's getting like World War I figures now. Wow. But Lee had lost. Oh. Yeah. They'd finally bloody won something. And Lee was retreating back over the

Potomac. Lincoln was angered by the last part. I mean, what did that mean, Lee was retreating? You need to defeat him. You need to completely defeat him. Meade needs to destroy Lee, not just let him wander off yet again. And I quote Lincoln here, we only had to stretch forth

our hands and they were ours. He wrote a letter to Meade, and again I quote, he, Lincoln was quite angry. Yeah. Still, the news was mostly good. And the news from Grant in the East was also good. The Mississippi was now taken. They'd got it. They'd got the whole river. The letter Lincoln sent to Grant was far more glowing. Well done.

Yeah, pretty much. Lots of love, Lincoln. Someone told Lincoln that Grant was drinking too much on the job, however. Oh dear. Yeah. A story then circulated that Lincoln replied that he should find out what Grant's brand of whiskey was so he could, and I quote, send every general a barrel of it.

Lincoln laughed when he heard this story. Apparently it wasn't true. He didn't say it, but he did of it. Lincoln laughed when he heard this story. Apparently it wasn't true. He didn't say it, but he did like it. He liked the idea. And not too long, Grant was given command of all armies in the West. And this was the turning point of the war. With the Mississippi taken in the West and Lee's major invasion defeated in the East, things start to look far more positive. But obviously it's not over. The draft riots continued. A real feeling of unrest still lay thick upon the country. Lincoln was then invited to a speech

that was being given in Gettysburg. He wasn't going to be the main speaker, but perhaps he could say a few lines that would inspire a demoralised nation. Come on, you mothers! Was his first draft, yeah. Yeah. The main speaker, a man named Edward Everett, spoke for two hours.

Oh, that's too long. Talking about the battle that had taken place very nearby. We won! We won! It's just a battle for two hours. Yes. And the lessons to be learnt from history. Then, at last, Lincoln stood up. And I'm guessing some groaned.

Oh, God. How long's this gonna be? I've already been there for two hours. How long do you think? I think a few minutes. I'm sure all Americans know this. It's probably one of the first things you learn when you go to school. Apart from, there's the toilet. Don't eat this crayon. The Gettysburg Address is surprisingly short. Yeah. Yeah. It's just not something I've really come across. I obviously knew of the Gettysburg Address, but I didn't realise how short it was. Do you want to hear it?

Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Oh, I heard that. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who

here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this, but in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here. The irony there.

But it can never forget what they did here. It is for us, the living rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task of remaining before us, that from those honoured dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion,

that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth. Nice. They don't call it a phrase, do they? But I recognise that. Yeah, yeah. And that's when the jets start hovering behind him. Yeah.

And we shall celebrate our Independence Day. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone cheered. It was great. And that's it. That's the entire address. Lincoln then went and sat down, dun, dun, dun. Yeah. Everyone cheered. It was great. And that's it. That's the entire address. Lincoln then went and sat down, probably smoking to himself slightly.

So I aced that. Knocked that out the park. Because Everett then leaned to him and said, I wish I could flatter myself that I had come as near to the central idea of the occasion in two hours as you did in two minutes. Sorry. One minute 52. I could have done it quicker if I didn't do the dramatic pauses. And this is very much seen as the turning point. Lincoln then heads back to Washington, but he wasn't feeling very well.

Oh no. Yeah, there was a little bit of smallpox in the air. Oh dear. A mild strain, to be fair, but both Lincoln and little Tad got sick. Not little Tad. Little Tad. No. No, you'll be glad.

Oh, thank goodness. I mean, it doesn't make it too much further than his dad does, but he's going to survive this episode. Oh good. Yeah. Lincoln, whilst he was sick, made the joke that he'd be happy to see all the continual office seekers that he usually had to turn away, because he now had something he could give to everyone. Quite witty, actually.

Yeah. Anyway, Lincoln then has to start thinking about the next election. Really? Yeah. Not good timing. Well, it had been decided that the Republicans and the remaining Democrats would put their differences to one side and run as a union party. Ah. Sort of. Not all the Democrats were on board with this.

But some were. But this is essentially the Republican Party. Yeah. With a lick of paint on top. Yeah. However, Lincoln is hardly universally popular with the Republicans, and the Democrats now despise him.

So there was a very good chance he was going to lose the nomination, let alone the election. So, yeah, things looked uncertain for a while. However, Lincoln had enough support. He was going to get the nomination. So he could just get repeated Gettysburg Address. I think so.

Especially that last bit. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Motherfucker. He used to just go around saying that. You got my vote. Yeah. So yeah, he told people, no, it doesn't matter who you choose as my next vice president.

That doesn't really matter, does it? Put a Democrat in for all I care, for unity's sake. Whatever, just... Look, if that keeps the border states happy, do it. As long as everyone's happy with my plan for ending slavery, we're fine, okay? So it was decided that Lincoln would run with a man named Andrew Johnson as his running mate.

Andrew Johnson? Oh, yes. President Johnson. There's a Johnson, isn't there? He will be our next episode. Ah, wonderful. Because obviously the vice president becomes very important. Oh, so Lincoln wins this then.

Meanwhile, on the war front, Lincoln decided it was time he did what he'd been thinking about doing for quite some time. Someone needed to defeat Lee instead of having these complete victories that people kept claiming they were having. Actual victories would be better. And he'd been going through the generals quite a bit, but there was always one that seemed to get results. So he decided to put Grant in charge of the whole army. that seemed to get results.

So he decided to put Grant in charge of the whole army. He moved Grant east and he took over with another general named Sherman taking forces into the heart of the South, into Georgia, sieging Atlanta. Sherman, who Sherman tanks are named after. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Things are looking quite good.

However, Grant and Sherman both found resistance tougher than they hoped. And the move that Lincoln should just end the war started to grow. Look, just compromise now. Heal the country. Give the South slavery, but contain it. Yeah. Just like you said you wanted at the start. Weed then came to see Lincoln, remember Weed? Backroom deal guy? Oh yeah. Pulling the strings in the background. Yeah, he came to talk to Lincoln and bluntly told him, look, you're not going to win this next election. Yeah, screw you. There's no way you can win this. You're too unpopular. You might

have got the nomination, but the war's too unpopular. Give up now. You're terrible. The Democrats that had not joined up to the Union Party have nominated someone, and he's quite popular. Yeah. There's a good chance he'll beat you. Oh, yeah, who's... Peter Opula. No, no, not

Peter Opula. We've no, not Peter Opula. We've come across him. Who do you think's winning against Lincoln the President? Oh, McClellan. Oh yes. Oh. Yeah. Oh, what a git.

McClellan wanted slavery back and he wanted the war over. And a lot of people felt the same way. And the way things were happening now, McClellan was going to win and Lincoln was going to lose. So much so that I quote Lincoln here. Bugger. This morning, as for some days past, it seems exceedingly probable

that this administration will not be re-elected. Then it will be my duty to so cooperate with the president-elect as to save the union between the election and the president-elect as to save the union between the election and the inauguration, as he will have secured his election

on such ground that he cannot possibly save it afterwards. Oh, nice little burn there. Oh, yes. Seeing the end coming, Lincoln caved and announced to his cabinet that he would offer Davis the following. Fighting would end, the South would recognise the Union government,

and slavery would be discussed at a later date. So essentially slavery would be kept. Right. And we'll discuss it later. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. That can that we've been kicking collectively down the road for generations,

we're just keeping kicking. I mean, the paper's torn on the can and the image is faded, that we've been kicking collectively down the road for generations. We're just keeping kicking. I mean, the paper's torn on the can and the image is faded, but it's got some time left. It's fine. Soon afterwards, however, Lincoln changed his mind. No, no, I can't do it. Probably sent someone running after the mailman.

Yeah. No, don't deliver that. Tackle him to the ground! Yeah. And then Atlanta fell. Yay. Sherman was sieging it. Sieging? That's what you say in the moment, Juan. Still sieging.

Attacking. Attacking. Dominating. I'm still saying sieging. I like it. Lincoln, who was obviously having a bit of a miserable time, used this victory for all he could. And then several other victories followed. Wow. Just in time. The war suddenly starts to look like it might be over soon

regardless. And then the election was upon them. That's instead of timing. Oh, yes. And although it had been looking quite dire not long before, the tide had turned just in time. The popular vote was 55% to Lincoln, 45% to McClellan. So a comfortable victory. The Electoral College, however, was an utter landslide. 212 to Lincoln, 21 to McClellan. I just imagine Lincoln's smug face at all that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The Republicans had benefited from the recent victories, but also had downplayed emancipation as much as possible. Yes. The whole election campaign was basically, don't mention slavery.

much as possible. Yes. The whole election campaign was basically, don't mention slavery. A much relieved Lincoln threw himself back into his work, meeting senators, writing out pardons, which he did non-stop, because people kept being executed for desertion. And Lincoln didn't like that, so he kept writing pardons all the time. They're scared, leave them alone. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, meeting with his cabinet, the usual stuff.

Sherman was cutting through Georgia at this point, like a hot knife going through something that a hot knife can go through quite easily. Depends how hot the knife is. 3,000 degrees. Oh, most things. Yeah. Yeah, Sherman had a new plan for the war. It was

basically make everything so terrible for the South, they would give up. Brilliant. Yeah, so he just went through Georgia burning and pillaging, basically. Oh, that sounds very Roman. It really does. Yeah, again, it's never really described as pillaging, but it sounds Roman to me. Lincoln and Grant were hesitant at first. But, oh, no, actually, it seems to be working, actually.

So let's just let that happen, shall we? We'll call it off the books. Yeah. Lincoln, feeling that the end of the war was finally near, decided it was time to push for the 13th Amendment. And this is when the Lincoln film kicks in. It's around here. Yeah. Wonderful. They missed out quite a bit.

Yeah, the Constitution would be changed and slavery outlawed. Lincoln feeling that a constitutional amendment was the only way to make this really stick. I guess he was dominating and I was like, let's just end this. Yeah. It caused massive problems. Well, the vote looked like it was going to be tight. So Lincoln ordered his cabinet to go and procure the votes.

Everyone looked at each other. What do you mean, Lincoln? Here's your bet. Just go forth and make sure the vote goes the way we want it to. But what do you mean by that? How far do we go? Just don't tell me. Just don't tell me.

Yeah, the extent of the bribes that took place isn't really known. But let's be honest, this isn't much better than Buchanan's bribes over the Kansas situation. This isn't democracy. As moral as we think it is, that's not democracy. Well, as Thaddeus Stevens, who's played by Tommy Lee Jones in the film, said, and I quote here, the greatest measure of the 19th century was passed by corruption,

aided and abetted by the purest man in America. So with a bit of lubrication, shall we say, the amendment passed and slavery was abolished throughout the United States. Wow. From here on in, we no longer need to talk about slavery. Apart from all the times we need to talk about slavery still. Yeah. But there you go.

It's gone. Slavery's finally ended. Lincoln commented that no one would have anticipated, and I quote here, that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Yeah. Because, after all, the war was still raging on.

Yeah, yeah. Still. Still people were dying. Still they could not pin down Lee. Lee had written to Grant recently, suggesting that the two men sit down and settle the war between them as men. Arm wrestle. Fighting

men. Yes, exactly. Arm wrestle. And a wood chopping competition. That too, yeah. So stages, add stages. Yeah, yeah. Steak eating competition at one point. Yeah, just generally manly American things. Yeah. They're still in the background. They still watching they're still watching they've been very quiet they've been very quiet yeah i don't need to get involved at the moment

they're just watching because because he's been through bad times they're sort of enjoying that but now he's sort of winning so they're like they're closing in yeah if you just look at washington from above you can just see a massive circle. Ring of turkeys. Just slowly creeping closer. Yeah. Anyway, Lincoln sent a polite note to Grant, pointing out

that he would be the ones making political decisions, not Grant. You make the military ones, I will make the political ones. Yeah, Grant, you'll never make political decisions. Yeah. And then Lincoln decides to go and meet up with his general-in-chief, who was near Richmond. The final battle looked like it was near,

and Lincoln wanted to be close at hand. So Mary, Tad, and Lincoln go off. Go and see what was going on. There was a slight problem when Mary, who was arriving slightly later than Lincoln, saw Lincoln greeting the troops. But instead of waiting for her, he had gone forward to greet the men with a general's wife who happened to be there.

Mary grew very angry and started shouting at her husband in front of everyone that the soldiers would think that this woman was her, and how dare he. Very embarrassing scene. Lincoln simply walked off, fuming. As you can see, their relationships never really recovered. Still, Lincoln was cheered when Grant hinted that the next battle may well be the last. Grant heads off for nearby Petersburg, where Lee was, leaving Lincoln waiting news.

He hears gunfire in the distance. He sees flashes in the sky. But that's all. When news finally comes through, it was good news. Complete victory. Yay! Lee had fled. Yeah, it's clear he said, yeah, oh, hang on.

But actually, he had fled and it was looking really bad for him. Also, Richmond had fallen. The capital had fallen. Yes. And Davis had fled also. Grant assured Lincoln that they were hot on the heels of Lee. Seriously, we're getting in no time. This really is coming to an end now.

So an elated Lincoln decided to go and visit the Confederate Capitol. Let's go and see what it's like down there. It's a complete mirror image of Washington, D.C. Oh, yeah, but everything's in reverse colour. Everything's just left to right reversed. Yeah. Which really confused people using taps. Yeah, especially driving carts. Yeah, and opening doors.

Oh, yeah. Doing your buttons up on your shirt. Yes. In fact, it was a bit of a nightmare. This is why they lost. Everyone forced right with their left hand. Yes. Yeah, Lincoln steps off the boat, greeted by cheering people on the docks, mostly black men who had been there working,

enslaved. So, yeah, they all start cheering. However, once into the city proper, it was an eerie quiet. Disapproving white faces appeared at the windows to look at this conquering invader who had destroyed their way of life. Lincoln entered the rebel Congress building and located Davis's office. He sat in the chair.

Stole his pen. Stole his pen. Had a quick sniff before him. Yeah. And it wasn't long after this that Grant sent news. Lee had surrendered. Lincoln, who was back in Washington by this point, ordered the celebrations to begin. The band played Dixie, which wasn't a mistake. No. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Oh, not that one. It's so embarrassing. No. Lincoln had always really liked the song Dixie. And one of the things he really hated

about the war was the fact that the South had just taken the song as theirs. So Lincoln said, no, we've won the war and we're taking the song back. And it'll no way be remembered as your song. Yeah. That didn't work. No. But he tried. So yeah, the band played

Dixie and then Yankee Doodle. But celebrations were short-lived because it dawned on everyone that the country was an utter mess. There wasn't a single person in the country not affected. Everyone knew someone who had died in this war. Yeah. Slaves had been freed, but what did that mean? Namely, questions like, well, can they vote?

Can they run for office? Can they have jobs? Yeah, what's going on now? Can they own property? And the rebels as well, can they vote? Can they run for office? Can they have jobs? Yeah, what's going on now? Can they own property? And the rebels as well, can they vote? If they rebelled, are they allowed to vote? Does that mean we're allowing black people to vote, but white people can't just because they rebelled?

A lot of racists didn't like that. Yeah, so there were a lot of tough questions, and everyone knew that this was going to be very difficult. They needed a master politician to steer them through what was going to become known as the Reconstruction. Fortunately, they had just the man, because Lincoln was raring to go. Yes.

He was just going to pop out to the theatre first, though. I'll take in a show, just to celebrate. Yeah. You can't blame him, you know, after all that bloodshed and guns and violence, he just wants to get away

from that. Exactly, exactly. It was a foggy night when Mary and Lincoln, who had both debated on whether they should go or not during the day, both of them had decided

not to go at one point and then changed each other's minds. They'd invited Grant and his wife, but they'd politely turned it down mainly because Grant's wife couldn't stand Mary

it's a shame yeah so they're in their carriage trundling through the foggy streets the sounds of turkeys raising they were late due to the fog and having to go around the patches of Turkey. So the play had already started when they got there. Well, that's annoying.

That is annoying. That did not stop the band from playing Hail to the Chief when Lincoln entered, though, which I quite like. That is brilliant. Halfway through a monologue. Alas, poor young... Oh, mother! Yeah. Everyone stands up. Lincoln heads to the box.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Unfortunately, he went through the wrong door, though, so he's got to skirt all the way down an aisle. Like, getting people to stand up. Excuse me. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Then realise he forgot the popcorn, so he goes all the way back. It's really awkward. The. Then realised he'd forgot the popcorn. So it was all the way back.

Yeah. It's really awkward. The band's still playing Hail to the Chief. It's... 15th time. Yeah. Eventually, however, they get to their box. It's Mary.

It's Lincoln. It's the couple that they found to go with them that wasn't Grant and his wife. Two strange looking people. You know what I mean. Oh, yes. Wearing hats and face coverings. Long dress and a long coat. Yeah.

Suspiciously stalky legs at the bottom. A trail of feathers behind them. They were certainly very keen on coming. They're foreign, dear. The play started again. The lead actor ad-libbed, and I quote, This reminds me of a story, as Mr Lincoln would say. And then they carried on the story they were performing.

And everyone laughed. Lincoln furious. It was during the third act that a shot rang out. And Mary saw her husband slump. People in the audience turned and to their shock saw the famous actor, John Wilkes Booth, jump onto the stage from the box. That's weird. He's not in the play.

He also caught one of his spurs in one of the flags and landed awkwardly and broke his shin. Oh, that's, if you're giving a speech after that though and you've broken your shin well he then cries something out maybe he had a speech planned but yeah only was able to say one thing it it's debatable what he said uh some people report that he said something along the lines of, the South will live on. Some people say he shouted, Sic semper Tyrannus, and then gave himself a high five for the Roman reference. Yeah. And then he limped off stage

before anyone could think to grab him. Oh. Yeah. Lincoln, meanwhile, was taken to a nearby house, and the doctors were called. He wasn't dead. Where was he shot? In the head.

Oh. Yeah. Yeah, he can survive it. Not for long. No, not for long. No, but he wasn't dead. First episode of Deadwood, same thing happened.

Guy got shot in the head by a Trixie. Yeah. He's alive for 20 minutes apparently. Yeah, so there you go. It's true. Lincoln lasts a bit longer than that. The doctors are called. They look at him.

They say, no, there's nothing we can do. This is a mortal wound. Tad was called for because he was at a different play watching something. So come and say goodbye to your father before he goes. While he dribbles and spits blood everywhere. Yeah. Sumner arrived. He was in bits.

He insisted that Lincoln was alive, which was technically true. It took the entire night, but the following morning, Lincoln died. And there you go. Right? Let's write him. Oh, this will be interesting. Statesmanship! Okay, you get the impression this will be a good round for him.

Yeah. At the start of his presidency, the country had split, like literally. Yeah. By the end, he had forced it back together. Had he? It was still split. The war had just been finished. Yeah. It's over. Yeah, the official war was over, but I guess I'm thinking

about the social split is still going to be very raw. That's still split now. I mean... Still seeing the ramifications of the Civil War to this day. Wow. That is insane. But the actual split is... Yeah. So there's that. I mean, that's a good point. Still seeing the ramifications of the Civil War to this day. Wow, that is insane. But the actual split is, yeah. So there's that. I mean, that is a big one.

Yeah. He had a very firm moral code and rarely wavered from it, even if he knew it would damage him. So he knew that freeing the slaves politically wasn't the best idea, but that's what he wanted to do because he morally thought it was the right thing to do. So went forward with it yeah i i think i think that's true but i wonder how much of that is due to him wanting to injure the south as well like he's quite emphatic with it near the end but was that just more of a ah take that i'm sure that would be part of it yeah but you get

the feeling that for the first time we've got a president who hates slavery and actually did something about it but the war allowed him to do it as well oh yeah yeah definitely yeah um uh but you can't get away from the fact that he ended slavery though i mean it's a bit it definitely you can't deny that he was able to steer a very narrow course between the border states that wanted slavery and the radical Republicans who wanted it to end. It was a balancing act the entire time. The fact that he manages to steer that all the way through the war without everything collapsing is phenomenal. And that speech he gave, giving his position as well. Yeah.

See, that is a good example of somebody, I wouldn't call it sitting on the fence, but sort of certainly stating a position that's effective. Clever politics. Yes, very much so. Yeah, that's what it was. And then, my last note, which we jumped ahead to, obviously the ending slavery. And like you say, it's not just him. Others deserve credit. Some, arguably more

so. But we're comparing presidents and he is the president who ended slavery so um yeah he's got to get massive points uh bad however because there was some the bribery's not good no now it's uncertain how much he knew of what went on but i mean we get the feeling that well he did say do what you need to do that's more theorized we don't really know how much he knew but yeah i i mean that that that's the moral thing there's like you could say well it's anti-democracy to do that however the outcome outweighs that in a way

because that leads to further democracy and further freedoms for people it's a moral debate isn't it it really do the ends justify the means i would argue yes okay How much of his reputation is overblown hype? After all, he is the perfect storm for being revered. Yes. He was a war hero. He was assassinated just after victory. So he gets all the benefits of winning a war and has nothing to do with all the hard work of reconstruction. You could argue we've never seen him as a traditional president because he

never was one. Yeah. He was a war president. Yeah. Any president that wins a civil war will automatically look good. Yeah. Any president who is assassinated will automatically be remembered more fondly than those that aren't. So Lincoln does have this sort of perfect storm. He ticks every box. He started poor, had a moral code, he ended slavery, he pulled the union back together, and then he was assassinated. Does that mean what he really did in real life is sometimes overblown hype? Possibly. But I mean, if you're looking just at the facts of what he did... It's impressive.

Yeah, it's not bad. What are you going to go for? I'm going to go for a nine. Yeah, I'm going to go for a nine as well. I'm going to leave one off because there could be the overblown thing there. There's the bribes. Yeah, I've got to take something off for the bribery, I think. I'm very impressed with how he managed to balance everything.

Yes. Politically, he was very very good and he managed to to keep the country together when it was on its knees so it's going to be very high marks yeah but yeah i can't give him full so that is 18 which is the highest mark in this round so far yeah with washington jefferson and and Madison scoring 17 apiece. Oh, wow. So Lincoln just manages to defeat them. Is that right?

I mean, they created the country. Have we been too generous on Lincoln here? I don't think so. Okay. 18. 18. Next. Disgrace getting it.

There's nothing really at all. No, I mean, it's a bit depressing. But I mean, certainly not something to give points in this round. He was universally liked, it would have seemed, by people around him because he kept telling amusing stories all the time. His relationship with Mary is sometimes called into question, with Mary usually ending up the worst off, which I kind of feel is unfair to a woman

who has gone through the deaths of two of her sons and also is going to lose Ted quite shortly. Oh. Yeah. Eric and William, wasn't it? Eddie. Eddie and William. Yeah.

Yeah, usually Mary's blamed for everything wrong in their relationship and she dragged him down is usually the story that's given, which I just don't personally see. No, that's the trouble with deifying somebody. Yeah, exactly. I think it is a relationship that wasn't great. It wasn't terrible. We've certainly seen worse relationships

in this podcast. But we've certainly seen much better relationships. I don't think it's worth anything in this round. One of the main criticisms is that Lincoln tried to have Mary put in an insane asylum. But again, when you look into that, it's like, oh, that's taken out of context.

You could definitely take that as in a, look, if you keep like this, you will be put in there, snap out of it. Maybe a bit harsh, but it's not like he was getting out the straitjacket or anything. He was a bit uncomfortably racist at times,

but he was less racist than almost everyone of the age. For that reason, I'm going to take off a point or two. Because that's... It is of the time, but it's not good. Yeah, no. A minus one just for the attempting to kick out all black people. It's not

great. No. He did realise that it was never going to work and stopped, but I mean, he just... It was a bit... come on, Lincoln. Joint lowest score in this. Well, technically joint highest score in this round. But yeah, a minus two next round. Yeah.

Silver Spring. Born in a log cabin. Pretty good. Yeah. Trips down the Mississippi. Yeah, that could be a good episode. Yeah. South Tor, wielding his axe, generally.

Series one would be his early life, wouldn't it? Yeah. Just character building for series two. Exactly. Then he starts teaching himself law. He works as a clerk. He's really bad with the ladies, and he wrestles some locals. Yes.

Yeah. He then turns the town around, and everyone loves him, so he gets into politics. He passes the bar with no mentor. Literally does it off his own back. He starts a law firm and then meets Mary and things don't go well due to him feeling inferior and her family agreeing.

That would all be one episode. All his law stuff, that's all one episode. Yeah. And meeting Mary at the end. Okay. Then the depression really starts kicking in. Yeah. He manages to turn the situation around with Mary and they marry. But then their

first child dies. Which isn't good. No. No. But dramatic. Yeah. Very sad episode. Very gloomy episode. Yeah. That episode would be very much him fighting with depression. Those times where he'd be in his office, which was a mess, and he'd just be reading his newspapers

trying to stop thinking about the futility of existence. If I was producing that episode, I'd have honestly five minutes of just the camera on his face with his hand against the wall, staring. Yes. Very dark. Just warm candle. That's all I'd have for five minutes. Then you've got all the political fighting

with Douglas that we covered last week, remember? Or him following Douglas around, debating him, talking about how Dred Scott is awful, the law, not the person. Yeah. Then he fails to beat Douglas in the race for Senator, so

all that effort and he fails, but his name's put forward for President. He wins the President, and then the Civil War breaks out. He walks a tightrope, trying to keep everyone happy. Trying to get his useless generals to do something. That's great, because in all those episodes, you just have, like,

flashes to the front of them debating Lincoln's eyes, ignoring him, whatever. Then you just get really annoyed. Yeah. Then, the 13th Amendment. You can make a film about that. They've done it. Yeah. Yes. And then, obviously. They've done it. Yeah. Yes. And then obviously you've got winning the war.

He achieves everything that he hoped he'd achieve. And then he is assassinated on the evening of his victory. Which you could probably deduce would be maybe the final episode of the series. Quite possibly, yeah. So it's good. I think it's good. It's very strong. I don't think it's the strongest

No because I think We're not in full mark Washington was Yeah On sort of He was there in the fray Yeah Lincoln not as much

But I'm thinking Seven Yeah I'm high But I'm not like Seven or eight Full marks It is Rags to Riches Which is really good

That always gets things You've got an assassination In the end That's always really good And you've got all these Funny anecdotes That you can do. Yeah. And that can help an episode take a long. Yeah. It's really strong.

Seven or eight though, like you say. I'm going for seven. I think I'm going to go for eight. Okay. That's good. That's a total of 15. It's a high score. So next round. TEMPORALISABILITY! Here's his official painting. Quite relaxed. Quite chilled out. He's leaning forward, grasping his chair in one hand. His other hand is on his chin as if he's listening.

This is actually an image of him in a different painting where he sat with Grant and they're discussing the war and a couple of other generals. Okay. And the painter just took that image of him and put him in an empty room. Okay. Yeah, so that's him listening to people talk

is essentially what that is. That's a message. It is. I'm going to say I like this. I quite like it. We've never seen somebody sitting in that way. Yeah, it's not standing there, look at me, I'm a Roman consul,

which a lot of them try and do. Yeah, yeah. It's not him just in a black background. It's almost like he's in the middle of something. Yeah. He's too busy to have his painting done because he's got a war to win, dammit. Yeah. He's stroking his chin. He's thinking is that the sound

of turkeys? There's one under his chair. You can actually see a feather under his chair. Yes, yes. Now you can. And also, actually looking at him as a person, I like the fact that he clearly tried a lot to look presentable um but he still looks a disheveled mess i like how disheveled lincoln always looked yeah it's good it's very very lanky looking and yeah his hair was always all over the place yeah um yeah i i like it it's it's a strong one. I'm going nine.

Nine? Yeah, I like that one. That's one of my favourites. I'm not voting for it. I'm going with seven. Okay, fair enough. That is a four in total. Bonus!

And here is where he picks up a few bonus points. Oh, yeah, of course. He only gets one point for terms. He won two elections, but he only completed one term. Yeah. One point. Sorry, Lincoln. But two points for assassination.

Our first one. Our first one. Oh, yes. Two bonus points. I mean, if you're going to be killed, you at least deserve some bonus points. Yeah. Two for assassination. An election.

His second election was an utter landslide, as we saw, but his first one wasn't. And if you get the two and average it, it just scrapes into the landslide category. It does. So he just gets two points in there as well. So five points there. So, Jamie, what is Lincoln's score?

He's got bang on 40. That is an impressively round score he's got there. But more importantly, that is three points more than Washington. Really? Yeah. He created a country. Yeah, yeah. That puts Lincoln ahead of Washington and he is now our new winner.

It's not that surprising that Lincoln and Washington is in the lead. We're not breaking new ground here. But we're discovering why these two are often held up as they are uh yeah he's not a runaway winner no it's relatively close with only three points between them you happy with that i'm yeah i'm happy with that i feel like sums up quite well but is he an american american or american well i i think the fact that he managed to eliminate official slavery, for me, is an absolute yes.

Yeah, it's not really debatable, this one, is it? He's eliminated the worst part of American history. Yeah. I mean, we've still got all the horribleness to come. He's officially eliminated. See, the saying that another human being is property. Yes. That's just humanity.

Yeah. So there we go. You can't say no to this one, really, can you? So that is a definite, well done, Lincoln. You are an American. Yay. All right. There we go.

That's one of the big ones out of the way. That's one of the big ones. Yeah. With also a few more in the past, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. You one of the big ones out of the way that's one of the big ones yeah with obviously a few more in the past but yeah yeah there we go you happy with the outcome

part of me expected more because he's so hyped up do you know what I mean I'm not disappointed but I thought there would be more I know what you mean but I understand also

you may have not put everything in oh there is a ton of stuff that we didn't have time to cover obviously it's broad brushstrokes, this. Yeah, yeah. That's for sure.

But I think what stands out to me is he's like a ray of sunshine. Yes. In a day where it is just raining feces. It has been so awful recently. And all of a sudden someone comes along who's not awful. This is how you do it. Show some humanity. And, oh, not everyone was truly awful back then.

No. Yeah. There was some glimmer of hope. Yeah. Andrew Johnson next. Oh, dear. I'm sure he'd be wonderful. Yeah.

Absolutely splendid. Don't forget if you can download us from Podbean and iTunes and can follow us on Facebook and Twitter, please do ask us questions. And please leave reviews as well because yeah yeah okay great so um until next time then goodbye goodbye Daddy! Daddy! Ah, Tad, how are you? I mean, I am in the middle of a meeting, but... Daddy? Yes, Tad?

Can you pardon Jack for me? Jack? Yes, Jack, my doll. Okay, Tad, so what did Jack do? Has he been naughty? He helped the enemy. Oh, did he? Is he a very naughty doll?

My son. Yes, he was sending McLaren's troop numbers. The 4,000 transferred. Tad, can I have a quick word? Just follow over here. When did you hear that, boy? What? I didn't. Jack did. Jack?

Yes, he sent the troop numbers to a Mr. J. Davis. I told him not to, but he told me that you'll be angry if you found out. Okay, Tad, I think there's enough silliness now. I'm the president. I'm in an important meeting here about the war. You're coming here telling me silly stories. Now, give me your doll. Is that Jack? Pass him to me.

Was it? No, this isn't Jack. This is George. George? Well, where's Jack, your other doll you're talking about? Jack, my doll. I got him six weeks ago. Six weeks ago?

He was delivered to my room. Delivered to your room? He's much bigger than this. He's almost your size. What? Where's Jack? Go get him. Oh, Jack.

Daddy wants to meet you. Jack. What, Lincoln? Call Stanton. Tell him we've had another fairly obscene lack of security here.