American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 22.2 Grover Cleveland

Episode Date: January 18, 2020

Big Steve is now in the white house, and he has his mind on one thing: his dead friend’s daughter. Once married however, he settles down to some good old fashioned tariff debate. Don’t worry though, we talk about plenty of other things: ballbat, the new colossus, rail strikes and open yacht surgery!

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Rupert Cleveland R2. Hello and welcome to American President's Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I am Rob and this is 22.2. Well that's nice. In the year 2020. It's not the 2nd of February though. No. But it is Grover Cleveland. Yeah it is. Yeah, been looking forward to this one?

In a way. Yeah, it is. Yeah, been looking forward to this one? In a way. But also, I still keep thinking about the horrible things and the horrible person, the fact he was just horrible. Yeah, no, he didn't come across as the nicest of men, did he? No.

No. Oh, well, maybe he can redeem himself. Maybe this is his redemption episode. Right. Okay. Well, maybe it is. Let's start. Well, we'll have to see.

Let's see. I've forgotten to write an intro for this episode. So I'm going to wing it more than usual. If you want to start us off. Wonderful. So it's a snowy scene. Right. Okay.

But the snow. No, I can still make this work. Keep going. But it's midnight. So you can't see the snow. Well, you've got to work with it. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is.

Off you go. Oh, and it's July. Okay. That still works. Possibly to work with it. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. I'll figure it out. Oh, and it's July. Okay, that still works. Possibly. Go for it. I don't think it was quite July. Anyway. Open on snow.

Drifting through the air. There's no sound. Just the drifting of snow. Just white flecks. Drifting. Drifting. Drifting. And then you start seeing, like seeing the tops of some buildings, some scaffolding in the distance

as an American flag, just because I'm a lazy filmmaker and I want to establish where we are. Nice and early on. Do you get the article, the little writing on the bottom again? The third? The lower third. No, no, I'm doing it with flags. Washington, D.C. No, I'm not doing that. You know how in American dramas,

if anyone goes to England, they always go into a pub with a massive Union Jack on the wall? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which we just don't have in this country, by the way. Yeah, so a bit like that. So anyway, it's all in very, very slow motion. This is like the flag is slowly drifting, drifting, flapping in the wind. The snow, the snowflakes are drifting.

Yeah. Then you realize as the sound muffled starts to come in, you're hearing a rumble sound. Rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble. Slower, slower. Get one of those rumbles and stretch it out for about 30 seconds. Yeah, it's about that. It's just growing in intensity. It's like this really big, meaty noise that's happening.

I can't picture that in my ear. That sounds weird, but I can't hear the sound. You're trying to, like a earthquake-y sound? It's almost as if factory sound. It's an explosion in slow motion. Oh, okay. Because it's an explosion in slow motion. Wow.

And at this point, the camera starts to speed up a bit, and it goes down, and you realise that those snowflakes aren't snow at all. It's ash. Oh, what a twist. What a twist. What a twist. Nicely done. And you look down at all. It's ash. Oh, what a twist. What a twist. What a twist. Nicely done.

And you look down at this sort of market square from a top. You're like a drone cam. Yeah. And you just see people running and screaming in slow motion as there is this explosion in the middle of this market square. Then, as people are running away, don't fade to black, just Cleveland just sort of forms on the screen. Out of the ash. Why not? Let's go for that.

Yeah, out of the ash, Cleveland. And then slam to black. Nice. Yeah, so there we go. Okay, I'm intrigued. That's good. Yeah, we'll come back to that. But, for now, if you remember, Cleveland, we left him. He's just been elected the 22nd President of the

United States. Yes. He had found the election stressful. I mean, those newspapers kept saying things about him, things that he got up to. Yeah, I mean, no matter how true they are, there isn't much. Yeah. But he had one, and he was willing to put the rumours about him behind him. He was going to be magnanimous

about it. In fact, he wrote to a friend, I intend to cultivate the Christian virtue of charity towards all men, except the dirty class that defiled themselves with filthy scandal and ballism. Ballism?

Yeah, Reverend Ball was a reverend from Buffalo, and he had been one of the leading voices speaking out about the whole Maria Halpin thing. Ah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I can continue the quote here. I don't believe God will ever forgive them,

and I am determined never to do so myself. If that was a tweet in capital letters, I'd be uncanny. Yeah, I like it. I love you. I intend to cultivate the Christian virtue of charity. Except for the... Because that's how charity works.

Well, yeah, of course. Oh, he's still lovely as ever. Yeah. He decides to fill his cabinet with bourbon. Good man. Or bourbon, if we're pronouncing it after the whiskey. Not biscuits. Yeah.

Deutsch Bourbon Democrats. That's who he's going to put in his cabinet. These are men who publicly supported civil service reform and small business. But in actuality, in real life, because this is the Gilded Age, they had many ties to big businesses and the railroads. And they had just as many fingers in pies as many bleeding Republicans did. His selections did not cause any waves. So I'm not going to go over who they were.

All right. No. By this time, the importance of the presidency in the public eyes was very much on the wane. There was no pressing political issues to really force interest. No one really cared who the president was that much anymore. If you were talking about people of power, people were talking about the J.P. Morgans of the world,

or the Jay Goulds of the world, the robber barons, or maybe betweeds, the people who own the big businesses. We should do a bit on J.P. Morgan, because I watched a bit about him on YouTube. It's quite interesting life. Yeah. He's a bit of a nasty person.

Yeah, it's odd to these robber barons. You didn't get many nice ones. It's odd that. It's almost as if you had to be a certain type of person to happily just rip off half a nation. Apparently he had a deformed nose as well. Oh, did he? And he heavily censored all of his photographs he had of himself. Ah, that is interesting.

Any photograph you see of his nose has been changed. There's one photograph that was taken. It's of him raising his cane to beat the photographer. And they got the photograph of him. He tried to buy the pictures off him, but he didn't. And they got leaked. It's interesting. That is brilliant.

Yeah. We will. I keep saying it. We're going to do some special episodes. There is a plan in place. It just might not happen for a while. That's right. But we are going to do some non-presidents at some point.

So I think J.P. Morgan could go on the list. Yeah. I mean, the plan is to move away slightly from powerful white men, just to see more of the country. But I think we could do it with the occasional just horrible person like J.P. Morgan. The influence is inarguable as well.

So anyway, that's by the by. Because right now, we're still talking about Cleveland. And he's not making huge waves. Cleveland arrived in the capital the first time he'd ever been there, interestingly. I mean, he had no experience of Washington whatsoever. What a dump! Well, yeah. They've got the big obelisk now, though.

Is it finished by now? Yes. Oh. Literally just. They have just finished building it. He steps off the train onto washington final capstone just put on yeah exactly leveland walks past what a dump that will be the first thing to go

yeah it took a while to build that but it's big it's impressive it takes a while to build so there you go now from now on when you're imagining the washington scene yeah picture the big pointy thing in the middle phallic looking image exactly It takes a while to build. Yeah. So there you go. From now on, when you're imagining the Washington scene. Yeah. Picture the big pointy thing in the middle. Big phallic looking image. Exactly. So yeah, he's in the capital.

First thing he does is go and visit Arthur in the White House. Yeah, Chester. Chester, good old Chet. They'd met a couple of times before. They weren't strangers. And Arthur happily gave Cleveland a tour around the White House, which is nice. Here are the toilets. We've got, excuse the glass walls,

but that was Tiffany's idea from a few years ago. Yeah, no, exactly. It would be a bit like that. It looks a bit like the Crystal Palace right now. Oh dear. Yeah. So he settles in, shall we say. Then came the inaugural address.

Cleveland surprised many by giving his speech from memory. Didn't he say he's quite good at that yeah this isn't a party trick of his uh it wasn't the done thing in the day he'd just deliver a speech only 15 minutes long um and apparently quite uninspiring uh but from memory so everyone went oh, he can remember 15 whole minutes of words. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Several actors in the crowd. Just seriously, it's not that impressive. I mean, considering you do the podcast from memory. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That's more impressive. That's very impressive. Yeah. He did state that they must treat the Native American population better. That's nice. That's nice. Why is he saying that?

What does he want from them? He's saying that because that's literally what every single president has said in their inaugural address for quite some time now. Oh, so it's tradition then? Pretty much. Okay. Yeah, it's just yeah, we know that we're doing wrong, but yeah, what are you going to do? We should sort it out.

We really should. We'll get right on that. We really will. As soon as we stop figuring out how to make money from this situation, we'll get right on that. We really will. As soon as we stop figuring out how to make money from this situation, we will get right on that. But still, it's a nice start. It's a positive thing. Yeah. Even if you could question how genuine it is. He then talked about the dangers of, I quote, the servile class. Servants.

People from China. Oh. Yeah, remember. Yeah. China's very much in for the racists. How they, and I quote here, compete with American labour with no intention of acquiring citizenship and bringing with them and retaining habits and customs

repugnant to our civilisation. Oh. Yeah, so. A lashing of racism there. Yeah, you just need that in your inaugural speech, don't you? Straight after saying how they need to treat the Native Americans better. Yeah. So anyway, that goes down quite well.

Okay. Yeah. He then talked about how America wanted peace, commerce, and friendship with all nations in the world. Right. Yeah. Except China. Yeah. hold. Right. Yeah. Except China. Yeah. Cleveland comes from that class of people who fully believe that if they just say one thing that's not racist, it cancels out all the other racism.

So anyway. He's really after that redemption, isn't he? He is. He then went to settle into the White House. He immediately found out that he hated fancy French food. Really? Yeah. If you remember who's the chef at the White House at the moment? It's the guy who Arthur installed. Okay. Because he wanted the White House to be a bit more like Dalmonico's. Oh, classy. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. Yeah. Cleveland's... He has no truck with this. More than once

he asked for the servant's food to be brought for him. Really? Yeah. He pined for pickled herring apparently. No one pines for that what kind of monster is this oh my goodness he first racism and then he likes pickled herring my mom who listens to this by the way um tried to make me eat pickled herring once so you're quite you you're pretty you eat pretty much anything. Oh yeah, I am not fussy at all. I'm really not.

I eat practically anything. How was the pickled herring? It was awful. It was truly bad. Wow, okay. Yeah. Imagine, well you don't like fish, but imagine you liked fish and then someone did something horrible to your fish.

That'd be horrible. It was horrible, yeah. I can already hear people reaching for their phones to send us messages about how lovely pickled herring is. Yeah, we sounded the right kind. There is no right kind. Well, Cleveland thought there was. He loved nothing more than a herring that had been shoved in a jar of vinegar for six months. What a monster.

Yeah. Anyway, as was common with Cleveland, the first thing he did was go over the accounts to see if the White House was being swindled at all. Remember he did that when he became sheriff and then mayor and then governor. He just goes over everything with a fine-tooth comb. Is everything on the up and up? Well, that's good because you've got to know what you've got. Yeah, as far as I could tell,

he didn't really uncover anything like he did when he was sheriff and when he was the mayor. He made some quite significant changes immediately, but now everything seems to be okay. Is that just, do you think because it's so much bigger? This is general day-to-day running of the White House. Oh, just the house.

Yeah, it's like, are we being overcharged for the firewood kind of thing? I'm with you. All right. Yeah. He then starts his job proper. As per usual, first shock was the office seekers. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, despite the whole civil service reform starting to kick in, Cleveland was still inundated with people seeking favour for some past interaction with Cleveland. And like Arthur, Cleveland did not have office hours and then leisure time like Arthur did. Yeah. Yeah, no, Cleveland, very much a workaholic. He had a, his desk was apparently only steps away from where he slept.

Really? So he'd be able to get up and just take a few steps, sit down and start writing. Wow. Yeah, he was a busy man. In my head, that means there's just a massive bed in the middle of the Oval Office. Which is great. Not that the Oval Office is there at this time, obviously. But that's what is in my head, that means there's just a massive bed in the middle of the Oval Office. Which is great. Not that the Oval Office is there at this time, obviously. But that's what is in my head.

Apparently, he'd get up when the sun rose. And he'd be at his desk reading and writing very shortly afterwards. As with his time as governor, he had thought about who the hostess of the mansion would be. And like last time, however, he did not decide that perhaps it would just be easier if he simply didn't entertain. Because entertaining is kind of part of the job as president.

Can't get away with it this time. So, lifelong bachelor, who's he going to send for? You're frantically searching your notes. Francis? Maria? Maria would be awful who's maria maria howpins the person he um oh yeah his dead friend's wife not his dead friend's wife dead friend's wife's daughter not his dead friend's daughter yet that is francis who you

just mentioned oh okay um yeah no this was his sister rose okay who he thought about last time uh yeah he's going to bring rose along rose apparently was a highly intelligent very serious woman who loved to study and also saw no reason why her being a woman should hold her back she had views as the men would say at the time. Yeah. We're really starting to see the start of women's suffrage movements starting to creep in. Yeah.

And Rose would have been someone who would have pointedly pointed out to Cleveland, it's a good way to point things out, pointedly, that, yeah, she can work as hard as any man. And apparently she did do a very good job of running the mansion whilst her brother ran the country. Now, Cleveland appears

to have gone full into workaholic mode. He occasionally went fishing and had recently developed another hobby, the watching of a sports game. This was a game where men hit a ball with a bat and they ran around bases.

Ball bat. Ball bat. Yes, you've heard of it. Yeah. Also known as baseball. Interesting. Yeah. Like rounders.

Yeah, rounders. I did read there's a controversy about that. Oh. Yeah. If you don't know, if you're in America, rounders is a game that's played in schools but not really popular outside of schools where you have bases in roughly a pentagon shape I think and then you stand with a bat and someone bowls a ball at you. You hit the ball with a bat and then you need to run around the bases and then when you get to the end you score points. There was an English man after seeing baseball the first time who said, oh, this is rounders.

And there was this huge campaign in America about how no, baseball was invented in America by Americans. Nah, it's rounders. It's rounders. It quite clearly came from England. But there were some people who say it just independently sprung. What's that called? It's called divergent evolution or something like that. Yeah, something like that.

So maybe it is that. Yeah, yeah, not true. But maybe. That's why I say, yes, the English we speak as well. We invented that. Yeah, maybe some of the people who went over to America from Europe took some of their sports with them and they slightly changed over time. Who knows?

Who knows? Anyway, this baseball, it's been around for a while. The first mention of baseball in America written down apparently is in 1791. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it went over early. Yeah. It was an unregulated game, apparently, with ever-changing rules for about 50 years.

I don't know how ever-changing, like halfway through a game. Change the bat size. Yeah. Anyway, in about 1845, the knickerbocker rules were written down by the New York knickerbockers. So they had a set way of playing in New York. Yeah. It still wasn't hugely popular, though. Apparently, up until the 1850s, cricket was far more popular in America than baseball was, which I had no idea about.

But yeah, apparently cricket, thing in america for a while interesting cricket cricket yeah can't get anything more english than that can you no i mean not that many people like cricket in england anymore it's boring incredibly boring we're offending so many people today you know that there is a pickled herring cricket loving listener out there who will never listen to us again but anyway the civil war apparently helped the growth of the game there you go silver lining for the civil war men all around the country or at least all around the north would gather together and play baseball and soon for whatever reason it was the new york style that caught on so everyone started playing the new

york style of baseball and then when everyone went back to their home states, the New York style spread. So there was now more consistency in the game, which is quite nice. By 1870, professional teams had started to emerge and play in leagues that were being formed, including the Chicago White Stockings and the Boston Red Stockings.

They changed to Boston Red Sox, is that why? I'm guessing so. I didn't even think to check. I just assumed they did. Yeah. Then in the 1880s, the sport was popular enough through the north of the country. It wouldn't become popular throughout the whole country, apparently, until after World War

II. Okay. But in the, like, the north-east of the country, it's really popular. I guess it would have been quite regional then, but with, you know, after World War II, it's starting to get television. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you can spread it more.

So in the 1880s, especially up in, like, the Buffalo area, and then you've got Boston and Chicago, yeah, baseball became really popular. And obviously that's where Cleveland was. So he became a big fan. In fact, he had been friends with one of the Buffalo Bison players when he was sheriff. So not long after becoming president, the Chicago White Stockings came to Washington for a game.

And Cleveland invited the team to come to the White House. So there you go. First time we've seen a sports team being invited to the White House. He served them all McDonald's. He didn't serve them McDonald's, no, because he's not weird. In return, they invited him to come and see the game. Cleveland declined, stating that the public would not expect him to, and I quote, waste my time going to a ball game.

I can only imagine there was an awkward pause after that. He was quite thin that way, sir. Talking to the professionals who played the sport. I love the sport, but I wouldn't waste my time watching it. Thank you, sir. Have a good day. In Cleveland's defence, I'm guessing he did want to go and see the game, but... It's the optics of his. Yeah, it's the optics.

I'm here wasting time playing a game or watching a game. I should be at work. So, yeah, maybe he didn't say it in quite such a snooty way, especially not with the English accent. Anyway, Cleveland was actually very sensitive about what the press said about him. After all, he was still very angry with the way the whole Maria Halpin affair

had been handled by the press. I mean, they'd told the truth. Told the truth and stuff. I mean, it was awful. And because of this, he became openly hostile with the press. He would not let the press into the White House. Instead, they'd have to stand outside the mansion and wait for people to enter or leave if they wanted to get a quote on something. Interesting. So when there were rumours about Cleveland's love life that started to

circulate, the press found it very hard to get details. But we know the details now. Yay! If you remember, which I know you do, Grover had a good friend named Oscar, Oscar Folsom, who was, it would appear, in some unknown way, involved in the whole Maria Halpern affair.

And then he had died in a carriage accident. Yes. Grover was put in charge of the family's estate and essentially became the guardian of Oscar's widow, Emma, and their 10, 11-year-old daughter, Frank. Her name was Frank. I said Francis last week.

Her name was actually Frank, named after an uncle, which is brilliant. Love it. Love the names. Yeah, when she grew up, she decided Francis maybe would suit her a bit better. Can't blame her for that. Yeah. But no, it's Frank. Grover and Francis had met when Grover was 27 and Francis was zero.

Right. She grew up referring to Grover as Uncle Cleve. Nothing creepy about that. No. And Uncle Cleve would always call Frances by her real name, Frank. When Oscar died, Uncle Cleve became closer to the family. As I said, Frank being 11 at this time. And then she grew up some more.

And then she went to Wals College in New York when she was 18. Cleveland asked Emma, the widow, for permission to write to Frances. And permission was given. The two exchanged letters for some time, and it soon became romantic in nature. And then he proposed. Oh, that's 27 years her senior. Yeah, and like literally watched her grow up.

Oh, that's, no. Like bought her baby crib for her. Oh, no. Probably played dolls and all sorts. It's just not. Oh, creepy uncle. It's just, he is It's just not. Oh, Creepy Uncle. It's just Dickie. It's just he is Creepy Uncle Cleave.

He's Creepy Uncle Cleave. Unfortunately, he is. One of their letters survives, by the way. So we have one of their letters. Oh, go on. This is Cleveland to Francis. Right. He's already proposed, so they are engaged, although it's very quiet.

I'm not surprised. My message went to Congress last Tuesday. It's a pretty long one, but if you could see all the papers say about it and hear all the people talk of it, I honestly think you would be proud of your old man. Oh. While I love you, Frank, as dearly as I can, it pleases me very much to read what you write about your improvements and all

that. I am glad to believe that you appreciate something that is before you as the wife of the president and the lady of the White House. I guess there never was anyone so young and so unused to such responsibilities who occupied the place before, and my anxiety is, my darling child, that you should be as well prepared for it as possible. Of course, the more other people admire Eww. Lots of love, Uncle Cleve. Oh. I made that last bit up, probably. Yeah, yeah.

The old man, little girl. Yeah, he's approaching 50. Yeah, ooh. She's like 20. It's just like, there's nothing wrong. There's nothing illegal. It's just slightly icky, isn't it? It really is.

It really is. Anyway, the reason why the press were having a hard time figuring out the rumour of the President's love interest is that he was clearly interested in a Folsom woman. But they couldn't really figure out whether it was Emma or Frances. Emma made more sense. The

widow of his friend. They're roughly the same age. But all of the evidence is pointing to the child. So, yeah, they were struggling to piece this together. When he was asked whether he was engaged to Francis, he responded, I am not going to say a word on the matter, but let you go on in your way

until you get tired of dragging the name of the poor defenseless child into cruel publicity. The wedding date was set and the service was to take place in Francis' grandfather's house. Unfortunately, Grandad died just before the wedding. Cleveland did not want a church wedding

and they couldn't go to Grandad's house anymore. So it was decided the White House would be the perfect place. Oh. Yeah. This would be the first wedding at the White House. We've seen a wedding before but we've not seen a president get married before. So yes, it's the first presidential wedding. They got married on June the 2nd.

All the cabinet and their wives were in attendance apart from one cabinet member who stated that he had vowed never again to attend any festive event after his wife had died. Which I think personally was just the first excuse he came up with. Yeah, his wife is alive and well. Yeah, or died like years ago. Yeah.

And it's like a one-use trick, that though, isn't it? And you've really got to commit to that one. And you have to have committed all before as well, because you can imagine, but you're at the Christmas party, Greg. Well, that's it. Greg can't go to any more parties for the rest of his life. But maybe he felt it was worth it to skip this wedding, who knows? Anyway, after the service, a dinner

was served and congratulatory messages were read out, including one from Queen Victoria. Oh. Yeah. Then the couple headed to Maryland to have their honeymoon. Unfortunately, the press found out about the location. Cleveland was forced to accept the fact that the public wanted to know

about the man, nearly 50, marrying the 21-year-old. Yeah. In fact, the public wanted to know about the man, nearly 50, marrying the 21-year-old. Yeah. In fact, the public largely thought that it was a splendid thing. Cleveland was seen largely as a non-entity in most of the country. All right. Who's the president? Oh, that Cleveland fella.

Okay. Kind of shows that most people just thought the presidents were interchangeable, they all did the same things. Yeah, you get the feeling it really was at this point. Ever since maybe Grant, because Grant was a big name i mean he won the war yeah but ever since then it's just been one sort of nondescript hairy man after another who's in bed with big business what does it matter who the president is but oh but now a young beautiful wife is on the scene almost like a princess figure the country doesn't have royalty for that weird obsession of

following princesses. So, I mean, this will do. We've got Frances now. Princess Frank. By all accounts, she seemed to be very pleasant and very welcoming to those she met. Really good with people. Just easy to get on with. Just a nice person. Those in the Republican Party started to openly say that Cleveland

is going to be a lot harder to beat in the next election now that he was married to such a person. She made him better. Meanwhile, Cleveland was trying to juggle the fact that the civil service reform was supposed to get rid of the endless revolving door of jobs. Yeah. And the fact that the Democrats have been out of power for an entire generation and now there are a lot of Democrats that wanted jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Now, the reformers, in particular, the Republican mugwumps who came over to support the Democrats in the election, were horrified when the president caved into pressure and started shipping out thousands of Republicans for Democrats, simply because of their party affiliation. So, small government jobs.

Yeah. You're a registered Republican. Sorry, you're fired. This kind of stuff was supposed to end. But, I mean, the Republicans have been in for so long, the Democrats just want to get some of their people in. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that's probably fair.

More tensions arose when Congress approved a bill that would approve a pension for all soldiers who fought for the United States during the Civil War. That's nice. Of course, that only means Northern troops. Cleveland vetoed the bill immediately. Why? We're only two decades from the end of the war.

I know we've had a few episodes since, but we're only 20 years off the Civil War. There were still a lot of Democrats who had strong feelings, shall we say, about the Confederacy. Right. So he wants to bury the bad blood. Cleveland saw it as unfair that only Northern soldiers got a pension. There were people who risked their lives in the South and they don't get a pension. Yeah.

You can see that argument. There were hundreds of thousands of men who were forced to fight for reasons that didn't really matter to them, but they were told to go and fight it's money and food for them yeah and there were people in the south starving and injured and why should only the northerners get a pension you can see that argument but then you can see the flip argument which is they were literal traitors yeah yeah i mean should we really be paying pensions to people who were traitors?

Fought against this. Yeah, it's not easy. But you can imagine, the South loved it, the North hated it. He vetoed the pension bill. It did not help that people started talking about how Cleveland had dodged the draft by paying for someone else to go to war for him. The Polish guy. Yeah, and now he was stopping men who had served from getting a pension. That is not good, is it?

No. And then Cleveland's war secretary decided to issue an order that all captured Confederate flags and banners must be returned. Like trophies. Yeah. Oh. That didn't go down well. No. It's like, well, why should they have them back?

We won. They're traitors. It's not their flag anymore. have it from back we were their traitors it's not their flag anymore now those who had opposed the democrats coming into power saying that all they wanted to do was bring back the confederacy i mean they were pretty much laughed at right all of a sudden it started sounding less ridiculous i mean 20 years is a short and a long time at the same time so it's not that far from the civil war but it's long enough politically for people to start feeling comfortable again. And all of a sudden we're starting to hear about anger in North and South. Yeah. However, it wasn't just the North that Cleveland was angering

because a drought hit Texas. People really started to suffer. The farmers' crops were failing. Famine starts to kick in. I mean, it's not good times in Texas. A bill was put together that would support the farmers so they wouldn't go under and hopefully the economy could tick over in that state still. Got a great idea, lads. Cactus farms. Exactly. It was a good bill. It was going to work. Cleveland vetoed it.

Oh? Yeah. It was not for the federal government to aid people within a state. That is the state's government's job. Not the federal government. Don't within a state that is the state's government's job not the federal government don't forget the bourbon democrats states rights yeah yeah yeah we're back to this age-old argument in fact i'll quote him here though the people support the government the government should not support the people what yeah a political statement that would not go down well nowadays.

No, no, no, no, not at all. But remember, in their minds, small government. You don't want a government that can overpower. They want a small government that just, like, deals with the little bits. Yeah, yeah. However, there was one area that the president felt he could intervene in, and that was business.

And that meant tariffs. Now, last time, i skirted around tariffs by saying oh arthur probably wasn't too interested in tariffs we'll talk about it next time yeah we're going to talk about it a little bit this time really i was hoping i know i know it's like can i get away with just not talking about tariffs but you kind of have to to understand what's going on brilliant can't wait okay so you ready for the little tariff tangent? Oh, I can't wait. I might have to wee first because I'm just...

Okay, you go for a break. All right. And then when you come back, we tariff it up. Yes. We've got to tariff it up. right tariffs tariffs just so we're clear everyone listening because i will forgive you if you're not fully up to date with tariff knowledge or just generally what they are because you hear the word tariff and you switch off that's human nature i assume it's a payment for the selling of goods to the countries right yeah tariffs are just a tax on foreign imports yeah that the other country

pays no so if if chad from new jersey wants to buy something from europe what's he want to buy a new baseball he wants to buy a new baseball. For some reason, let's say, in this hypothetical situation, all the best baseballs are produced in Hull, England, obviously. Yeah. So where are you going to buy your baseballs from? Hull, in England. Yeah. Now, to get those baseballs, you'll have to send overseas for your baseball. They get put on the baseball ship, dedicated ship that they had, and it's sailed over the seas. It arrives in New York and all the baseballs are taken off and sold. Right. If there's a tariff on baseballs, however, there is then an extra tax on buying

those baseballs that go to the United States government. That the buyer has to pay. Yeah. Is that almost not quite a punishment but uh you're buying from somewhere else so yes exactly okay yeah so when there's a tariff war between china and the raise of tariff that doesn't hurt china oh no it hurt the companies because they won't want to buy from china because people won't buy it from their company yeah um despite what the current president's apparent understanding is, tariffs are paid for by the consumers of the country raising them. Right. Yeah. Trump quite often says something very different. That's not true. Wait, not true. Wait for his episode. Scoop. I mean, I know. Stop

the press. So in that case, then what's the point in having tariffs? Well, in the 19th century, there were two main reasons. Number one, raise money for the government. Yep. Particularly in the Civil War, when the government needed money quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Number two, protect domestic manufacturing.

If the American baseballs that are inferior are artificially cheaper, because you've got to pay extra for the foreign stuff, US citizens will start buying the US products. Those US companies will then become richer and, in theory, will start producing better products and generally doing better. Or, the robber

baron who owns the company will pocket all the money, but, you know, yeah. Anyway, during the election, the Democrats had pretty much stated similar aims to the Republicans in regards to tariffs, which is keep the tariffs high. Remember me saying the two parties didn't really have many differences? Yeah, yeah. So the idea was keep the tariffs high

because it would protect the American industries. Right. That's what the Republicans said. The Democrats said, however, it was to protect the workers. If the factories go under, people will lose their jobs. So they came up with different reasoning, but it would still keep the tariffs high. However, as with many things, it's actually a bit more nuanced than that, because most Democrats actually wanted to lower tariffs, particularly in the South. But they were just a little bit too afraid that if they said

that out loud, the electorate wouldn't like it. Now, the reason why the South in particular wanted lower tariffs is because the high tariffs were bad news for most farmers, who often relied on imported goods to run their farms. Not only this, many people were angry that in this day and age where the poor were getting poorer and the government seemed to be absolutely raking it in, why are the government making such a profit on tariffs still? I mean, you can understand it's not a civil war. There was a war on, but why now? In fact, where's all this public money going?

Who's making this money? Where's it going? What's it being spent on? What's going on here? In fact, both parties argued that the revenue made through tariffs must come down. It was admitted, no, we're making too much money as a government. They're getting suspicious. Ah, ho, Mr Morgan. New carriage. We'll get to that. Yeah, so both parties say, yeah, no, we need to bring the tariffs down. We shouldn't be making a profit. We should be running the country. But the two

parties were based split on deciding how to bring that surplus down. Turn it down. Yeah. Well, the Democrats said just reduce the tariffs. The lower the tariff, the less money the government would make. Yeah. The Republicans said, oh no, put the tariffs up. Because if you put the tariffs up, there'll be fewer imports into the country. If there are fewer imports into the country, less tax will be paid on those imports, so the tariffs will go down. Yeah, it's a warped logic. Right, but in their heads they're actually thinking, I'm going to lose cash here. Oh yeah, yeah. Before you think that the Democrats and the Republicans were genuinely trying to figure out a way

of making a better economy for the country, no, they just had different opinions on how to make the businesses they were involved in more money. So, yeah, it depends what industry they're in and other factors. But, yeah, this was generally politicians had fingers in pies and they wanted to make money. It's sad that that mentality hasn't gone. Ooh, no.

From any politician in any country. No, no, it really hasn't. Anyway, once Cleveland had become president and he was installed into the cabinet, he soon became convinced by the large low-tariff faction in his party. Due to this, he spent a lot of time arguing over this matter. Like, a huge amount of his time. He became obsessed with tariffs. A bill was introduced to reduce the tariff. However, it failed to pass Congress,

so that didn't work. Even so, some remarked that, oh well, at least it's good now the two parties actually have a difference. We have an ideological split at last, and it's not about slavery this time. We can talk about it. Yeah, it's about we can talk about it yeah it's about tariffs and the great thing about debating about tariffs is most people don't care i mean it does affect them but you say tariffs and people just tune out because why wouldn't you i haven't been listening for the past 20 minutes i'd be amazed if anyone had um yeah in the wider country as you can imagine very little attention was paid to these debates. The inequality between the rich and the poor,

between the robber barons and the workers, was ever widening. And the cracks in society were starting to show. No one cared about tariffs. People were just annoyed or angered or outraged at the fact that these rich fat cats were sitting up on Banker's Hill raking it in. Workers in Chicago had decided to strike, demanding an eight-hour day.

But this time, employees could just tell you to work all the hours under the sun. And if you didn't, they could fire you. They wanted an hour limit on how long their employers could make them work. Fair enough. Yeah, the factory owners in the city refused, and the city ground to a halt when the workers struck. Went on strike. Went on strike.

A citizens' group was hastily put together. A union? Oh, no, no, no. Other side. This was the rich businessmen in the city formed a citizens' group. They were concerned as concerned citizens. They need to decide what to do. It was decided that the two leaders of the strike,

this was a man named Parsons and a man named Spies, would be watched. That's our quote here. Keep them in view. Hold them personally responsible for any trouble that occurs. Make an example of them if it does occur. Basically beat them up. Yeah. Yeah, as you can imagine, tension in the city rises.

Yeah. You've got a lot of angry people wanting to go to work because they're poor and they need to feed themselves and their families. You've got people who don't want to go to work because they're fed up with being just abused by their employers. And then you've got the rich people angry that they're not making as much money as usual.

There's a lot of angry people about. Yes, a lot of people unhappy for very different reasons. Yes. On the 3rd of May, business owners attempted to get new workers past the picket lines to go to work to break the strike. We'll just bus some new men in, put them in the factories. They'll do. There's always someone desperate enough to work in these poor conditions. In the next few sentences, are you going to use the word riot at all?

Riots then broke out. Yeah. And the police fired into the crowd. Four people died. Many were wounded. Oh dear. Now, Spies, one of the leaders of the strike,

was outraged and rushed to a printing house that he had access to, and printed the following. Revenge. Working men to arms. You have worked yourselves to death. Your children have sacrificed to the factory lord.

Why? To satisfy the insatiable greed. To fill the coffers of your lazy, thieving masters. When you ask him to lessen your burdens, he then sends his bloodhounds out to shoot you. To arms. We call you to arms. He's really going for it, isn't he? Yeah, this is revolutionary talk.

Yeah, but it has traction as well. Oh, yes. A meeting took place in Haymarket the next day. About 3,000 people were gathered. Big meeting. Yeah, speeches were being had. Lots of people talking angry about how they have been treated by the factory owners. However, the weather was really bad that day,

and nothing really seemed to be happening. So as the day went on, the crowd dwindled. There were only a few hundred a few hours later. Then 180 policemen arrived to break up the meeting. As arguing started, a bomb suddenly exploded in the middle of the police. Yeah, this is the start. This is the start, yeah. The police started firing at the crowd indiscriminately,

killing several people outright. No proof was ever found who detonated the bombs. I mean, there was just no way of telling. A bomb just went off. Parsons and spies were both hanged. Oh, wow. Yeah. Another leader of the strikers, while in his cell,

placed a stick of dynamite in his mouth and then detonated it. Oh, wow. Yeah. Another leader of the strikers, while in his cell, placed a stick of dynamite in his mouth and then detonated it. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. That's the way to form a cavity, isn't it? Oh, yeah. When I say things were simmering, I mean, it's really coming to the boil now. Yeah. There were a lot of angry people about the sheer inequality of society.

And if I were a robber baron at the time as well, I'd be possibly, very possibly, putting money into the hands of police. Oh yeah, yeah. The police were just owned by the rich, definitely. Anyway, back in Washington, some in the political class started to realise that perhaps something more than lip service

needed to be done about this situation. They'd been saying for a while that we need to sort out the inequality in society, but no one really was doing anything. Maybe we need to do something. Like climate change at the moment. Yeah, I mean... We should probably do something, but we will at some point.

Yeah, very much like that. Yeah, this kind of action is only a couple of steps away from full-blown revolution. However, very much like the current climate crisis debate, I think that's a good comparison there, most politicians were fully on the side of big business owners if they weren't the big business owners themselves. Right. Anyway, Cleveland called for legislation that would, and I quote,

provide for the arbitration of disputes between labouring men and employers. Again, lip service. Right, yeah. That one really cared. And also, there's more exciting things going on. Oh, good. Because someone's going to build a Colossus statue in the waters of New York. That's exciting.

A what? A Colossus statue. Why? Why? I don't know. It's just like the Colossus of Rhodes. It was great. Cool. Yeah, Cleveland got to go and open it.

Oh, nice. That was really good. Yeah. We don't have time to go into the ins and outs of just why certain people in France decided to raise money to build this colossal statue and give it to America. Pennies just dropped, hasn't it? Yeah. But it was decided not long after the Civil War

that a present to celebrate 200 years of the American Republic would be a good idea. Oh, nice. France would pay for the statue. The United States would pay for the plinth and nice yeah i know which one i'd rather be doing yes much easier to spark the imagination it's like we're what you guys get to build the exciting statue and we're just going to build a rectangle of block it's like a star isn't it's like a star shape yeah 11 it? It's like a star shape. Yeah, 11-pointed star, if I remember correctly. I have no idea. Yeah.

It's quite impressive to see, but it's smaller than you think. Oh, is it? I've not seen it in real life. Or it was far away. Don't know. Maybe it was. It was President Grant who had accepted the offer. It was Hayes who had chosen the site, or at least confirmed the site,

to raise funds for the building of this plinth. Because, or at least confirmed the site, to raise funds for the building of this plinth. Because, as I say, it's hard to raise funds for building a plinth. The arm with the torch was built first in France, shipped over to America and put on display in Philadelphia and then in New York.

Oh, like an encouragement. Hey, look at this. Look at this. You can go and stand in the torch and everything. Look what we could have. Look at this. Look, you can go and stand in the torch and everything. Look what we could have. Yeah, exactly. And then it was shipped back to France. What? Yeah, so they could build the rest of it.

I remember seeing a photograph of the arm being built in France. Or there's a picture of bits. So in France, the design was led by a man named Batoldi, which sounds very Italian, especially when I say it like that. But the engineering fell to a man named Gustave Eiffel, a man who had made a name for himself building bridges. Okay. The Eiffel Bridge, for example.

Yes. In a few years, he would build a temporary tower in the middle of Paris. All right. Yeah, which they decided to keep up. Yeah. Because it was only meant to be up for a few years yeah yeah i can't come i'll take that down actually they some people made a fortune selling the eiffel tower to scrap metal merchants oh pretending to be the government it was a common con in france for a while and at the time when the eiffel tower was built it was

the tallest building in the world yes yes it surpass. It surpasses the Great Pyramid of Giza. This is off the top of my head, I might be wrong. I think, for this brief period of time, it's actually the Washington Monument, because it's just been finished. And then the Eiffel Tower beats it. Yeah, that's my memory of it, because it wasn't until Empire State was built in the 30s. Yeah. Or 32, is it?

Then that was... No, no, the Chrysler Building. The Chrysler Building was built first, like 31. Yeah. Like 32, is it? Then that was... No, no, the Chrysler Building. The Chrysler Building was built first, like 31. Right, yeah. Something like this, and then the Empire State was 33. This is how we should do all our podcasts, just us two half-remembering facts. Yeah.

Anyway, but yeah, I didn't know Eiffel was involved in the... No, I didn't know that. No, so there you go. That's very cool. The statue took years to build. It was made from an iron skeleton on the inside and an outer shell that would... Yeah, a copper outer shell that would

hang on the frame. So, unlike most statues where it's like an exoskeleton, it has an interior skeleton. It would need one being that big, wouldn't it? Because copper's quite a malleable... Well, actually, it can move slightly in, like, high winds, so it doesn't crack, which is quite cool. Well, actually, it can move slightly in, like, high winds. Yeah. So it doesn't crack, which is quite cool. In 1884, it was completed and remained a full bronze-coloured

statue in Paris for quite a while, while they attempted to finish raising the funds for the plinth in the United States. So there was a period of time where you could go to Paris, and you wouldn't see the Eiffel Tower, you would just see the Statue of Liberty. How surreal would that be? Well, going back in time from now, how surreal would that be? Especially as it was a fully bronze coloured Statue of Liberty because it had just been built. And in fact, there's a picture. Oh wow! Oh, that's fantastic. That's really cool. If you can't get access to a picture, which is easy enough to Google, just imagine the Statue of Liberty, but in a different place. It's got some scaffolding around it.

That's really cool. Oh, that's amazing. Eventually, the plinth was underway, and in 1885, the statue was dismantled, boxed up into pieces, and shipped over to New York, where it arrived much like an Ikea Colossus statue would. Yeah. Really frustrating instructions. Yeah.

Massive Allen keys. Yes. Absolutely huge. Took a whole team of workmen just to turn it. So that's like a run up. Yeah. From a catapult. Go doink.

Hits it. Spins around a little bit. And the really chunky man that's drawn in the instructions was huge as well. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. He was the site supervisor. He'd just clunk around. Spoke Swedish. He was the site supervisor. He'd just clunk around. Spoke Swedish.

That was good. It took several months to piece together, which is common for any piece of IKEA furniture. But in October 1886, Cleveland arrived on site to preside over the official opening ceremony. I'd like to think they'd found a massive

sheet and they'd put it on top so he was able to whip the sheet off. I'm sure that happened. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Definitely. So there you go. Not only can you imagine the Washington Monument now, you can also imagine the Statue of Liberty's there. It's starting to feel like America now. It's starting to feel like America.

It was generally agreed that this was a fine statue, showing how America had liberated themselves from the British and freed the slaves just a few years later. On the tablet, is it like, bring me your poor... Not on the tablet, it's a poem on the plinth. Poem on the plinth. Yes, there were chains on Lady Liberty's ankles

that have been shattered to show the freedom of the slaves. Oh. Yeah. Not everyone was impressed, though. In fact... I hope it'd be bigger. It's not that. It's an African-American newspaper wrote this shortly afterwards.

Liberty enlightening the world, indeed. The expression makes us sick. This government is a howling farce. It cannot, or rather does not, protect its citizens within its own borders. Shove the Bartholdi statue, torch and all, into the ocean, until liberty of this country is such as to make it possible for an inoffensive and industrious coloured man to earn a respectable living for himself and family,

without being kukluxed, perhaps murdered, his daughter and wife outraged, and his property destroyed. The idea of liberty of this country enlightening the world is ridiculous in the extreme. Fair point. It's a fair point, yeah. And also highlights that the problems are still there. Oh yeah, the problems are still there.

Hugely still there. So the big statue to celebrate how wonderful we are now didn't go down well with many but cleveland had no time for talk like that because the next election's already coming up and cleveland decided that the tariffs were far more important an area to focus on than any of the civil strife that's going on the democrats easily decided to support cleveland in the election the tammany hall faction if remember, still weren't happy with him, but the Bourbons simply were too powerful.

Alan Thurman was named as his running mate. Thurman had the nickname of the Old Roman. Ooh, I like it. Been a while since we've had a Roman reference. So high fives all around. Hey, yeah. Cleveland seemed not to be too infused about this election, however. He wrote to a friend that he thought that his party would be more energetic if another man was nominated in his place, this election, however. He wrote to a friend that he thought that his party would be more energetic if

another man was nominated in his place. Which is hardly fighting talk. No. He also claimed that he was too busy to campaign. Meanwhile, the Republicans had nominated none other than the grandson of William Henry Harrison. Benjamin Harrison. Hmm. Yeah,

so we're back with the Harrisons. The election was a slow one. There were a couple of chants. You ready for these're back with the Harrisons. The election was a slow one. There were a couple of chants. You ready for these chants? Oh, yeah. They might be the worst I've come across yet. Really? Oh, yeah.

The Democrats cried about Harrison. His grandfather's hat. It's too big for Ben. And the witty retort came back. The same old hat. It fits Ben just right. That's tragic. Well, yeah, I imagine everyone then just sort of looked down in embarrassment and shuffled away, unable to meet each other's eyes.

Because that's the only thing you can do after those kind of chants. Yeah, and just pretended. Like, what? Who said that? What? Who was that? It's really bad, isn't it? Never mind. While Cleveland did not campaign, his running mate did, however.

The old Roman. Oh, he went on tour. Yeah, he did. Trouble is, he's 74. Oh. Yeah. He got tired easily. Oh.

Yeah, he collapsed twice on stage. Oh. It's not the best look if your nominee is not campaigning and his running mate is literally collapsing on stage. Shouldn't laugh, but yeah, not great. A rumour then appeared in the press that Cleveland had been beating his new wife in a drunken rage. This did not go down well with the public, as you can imagine. Now, we have no idea whatsoever how true these rumours are. However, I will say that Frances herself issued a statement saying that this was, and I'll quote her,

a foolish campaign story without a shadow of foundation. I'm writing these on my own free will. Well, it would appear that there are no other indications of this happening throughout their married lives together. Perhaps it was just a malicious rumour. We just don't know it's uh one of those cases where if cleveland was someone else i might go yeah that's just clearly a rumor but there were warning signs with cleveland out there so not violent though so far just more sort of yeah so maybe maybe not anyway just know it was a rumorour that was going around, and I imagine people reacted very much in the same way that we're reacting now, of a, really? But maybe.

So, it doesn't go down well. As ever, New York was a key swing state. The current New York governor was a Democrat, but a Tammany Hall Democrat, and the state did not go out of their way to support their own president. So, all of this adding up, you can probably imagine what the result's going to be. They were, once again, very close. We've had a few close elections.

In 11 million votes, Cleveland managed to get 100,000 more. He wins the popular vote. Yay. But Harrison had taken New York and Indiana. Ah. So Harrison got 233 electoral college votes, and Cleveland got 168.

He had lost. Oh. Yeah. Even though most of the people in the country voted for me. Yeah. Weird system that one. It's because it's a broken system. A broken system that broke about 200 years ago.

Almost immediately it broke. Yeah. Never mind, eh? Ah, well. It's only democracy. According to one story, Francis, whilst leaving the White House, ordered that the staff look after the furniture because they would be back. But she didn't say that.

That was written after the second. That probably happened afterwards. Anyway, the couple moved to New York City. They took in the shows there. Cleveland played a lot of cribbage, apparently. Ooh. Yeah. Now, I could have looked up what cribbage is, but I decided I'm just going to pretend in my head what cribbage is.

And that's probably more interesting than the real thing. Card games with babies. I think it involves cards, but I have a feeling it's more than just cards. I think dice or dominoes or something. Maybe it's dice, dominoes and cards combined but you've got to do it whilst on a tightrope across the room yeah unicycle unicycle tightrope

you've got to flick the cards like magicians do to knock the dominoes over yes and they hit a die it's rolls it's a whole goldberg machine kind of thing yeah and the card indicates or the card you throw doubles the value of the the domino yeah on the north side that lands and that then indicates you multiply the result of the die that gets that not pickled herring baseball loving fan of ours is also probably a huge cribbage fan in the world cribbage society Adam. He's part of the World Cribbage Society. Even more. I just thought my life would have a bit more mystery in it if I never find out what cribbage is. So I'm not going to. Yeah, that's

nice. Nice to have that. Yeah, because it's probably really boring. And in my head now, it could be really exciting. Do you ever think, though, that you'll be your last day? You're in hospital and you hear the beeping. And you're still lying there wondering, what is cribbage? Pick up your phone, quick Google. Oh, put your phone down. Yeah, in hospital and you hear the beeping. And you're still at that line wondering, what is cribbage? Pick up your phone, quick Google. Oh, put your

phone down. Yeah, that's what I'll do. Last moments. That'll be my last moments. Anyway, Cleveland, however, he found out what it was. He loved it. Through connections he had made over the last four years, he was able to make money doing some quiet work for a prestigious law firm.

In the background, he didn't like put his name on the partnership or anything. This law firm looked after the interests of none other than J.P. Morgan. And the two men soon met and became quite friendly with each other. Cleveland then settled into a life familiar to us, because it was quite similar to that of Chester Arfers. He's now in New York, cigars and brandy, hobnobbing with the robber barons. Just imagine slightly different rooms

because this is the Democrats, not the Republicans. Yeah, less fancy. He'd still be going to the same fancy places, though. Yeah, he purchased a cottage in Cape Cod in Massachusetts to get away from it a bit, where the Clevelands could retreat, just have a nice time. Nice. It was around this time that Francis gave birth

to the first of their five children. At the age of 54, Cleveland wrote to a friend to say that he found he had entered the real world for the first time, now that he was a father. No, he hasn't. He's got a maid. He probably barely saw the child. The girl was named Ruth.

Ruth, really sadly, only lives for 13 years. However, she lives on in the public memory because 17 years after her death, the Curtis Candy Company decided to name a chocolate bar after her called Baby Ruth. Apparently, that's still a popular

candy bar today. I've heard of Baby Ruth. As far as I could tell, Baby Ruth seems to be a bit like a Snickers bar. It's like chocolatey and nuggety and peanutty. So they're around. Yeah, now the fact that this chocolate bar was named after a child who had died 17 years earlier to a president that had been out of office for quite some time just makes no sense and was clearly a lie by the candy company.

Because the famous baseball player babe babe roof was around at this time yeah and the company clearly had just trawled the history books looking for a similar name yeah and then when they released it went oh no no that's uh cleveland's uh daughter yeah that's who we named our chocolate bar after but your chocolate bar has a baseball on the front one of the fancy ones made in Hull, England. So, there you go. That's a little chocolate bar tangent for you. Anyway, meanwhile, Harrison was getting on with running the country.

Now, I don't want to get into what he did too much, because it will spoil his episode. But we do need to cover a couple of things, so it makes sense when Cleveland gets back into office. The tariffs had been raised to the highest levels in United State history. Wow. Republicans go tariff happy. The rural communities in the north that were traditionally Republican were not happy with this at all. So they start to organize into large alliances.

These are farmer alliances. The Southern Alliance, the Colored Farmers Alliance, and the Northwestern Alliance all developed. You can probably imagine where they are in the country. I can guess. Yeah. Now there was an attempt to merge all of these alliances together to make a really powerful alliance but you can probably guess the problem here. The Southern Alliance insisted

on separate lodges for whites and blacks which the Coloured Farmers' Alliance and the North Western Alliance both just refused. Went, no, that's just racist. So, yeah. So they're like, yeah? That's the point. Yeah, the Alliance of Alliances never happened, unfortunately.

But they did still have the same message. The farming industry was falling apart. The cost to grow crops and then transport them while paying for the mortgage to the bank was more than you could get for selling your crops. Now, it was bad enough before the tariff, but it was now becoming unsustainable. Yeah. They started advocating for more paper money in circulation. The more money, the easier it would be to pay for goods and mortgages.

Of course. Because of inflation. The more money, the less the money is worth. So the debts that the farmers have will not be worth as much. They actively want the inflation, so their debts are lowered. Well, it's easy to... I get the point. It'll be easier to pay for things with more inflation.

Because you've got more cash going around, so it's easier to break it down. Yeah, and that's the problem the farms have at the moment. They just don't have the ability to move money around. Yeah, it's like saying the set value of this is 50,000. Yeah. And you've only got, yeah. I was trying to make a point then. I know what I mean.

Yeah, it takes a while getting your head around this. Yeah. But it does make sense what they're arguing for. You've got to balance it. You can't. Well, it makes sense what they're arguing for to a point. And also only if you believe in what they believe in. But yeah, this isn't just a they don't understand economics, so print more money. It's not that simplistic.

Anyway, the way to do this, they argued, was not to print more money, but instead to base the dollar on not just gold, but silver also. Have a two metal system. The more precious metal in the country, the more paper money available. They've got that in Finland, a double-metal system. They've got black metal and death metal. You can have a ranking point for that. Yes!

Genuinely, I thought you were going somewhere with that. No, I never do. No. Now, this argument was going nowhere. I mean, silver hadn't been used as a currency since 1873. Sort of. I'm simplifying here. It's more complicated.

However, recently, some silver had been discovered. And there were now quite a few rich robber baron silver mine owners who suddenly started pushing to have contracts with the government to make silver coins. Right. So suddenly the farmers found themselves in alliance with rich silver mine owners. That's always good to have on your side. In 1890, the Sherman Silver Purchase Act was created. The government would now purchase a certain amount of silver every single year from the silver mines and paper money would now be based on gold and silver. However, this did not do enough to mollify the farmers, because although this was a step in the direction they wanted,

the economy is really struggling. Cleveland starts to travel around the country and just happened to mention to any crowds that happened to be gathered that all of their problems were due to the high tariffs and the silver-backed money. And if, I don't know, a Democrat was back in charge, all your problems would disappear. It soon became clear to all in the party that Cleveland wants to run again. Now, some opposed him in the party, as ever, the Tammany Hall faction. But also, now those who really liked the silver-backed money.

So you start seeing the Democrats splitting into silver men and gold men. Oh, like a weird game of chess. Yeah. However, just know that at the moment, these silver men are in the minority and Cleveland was nominated on the first ballot. He's going to run for president again. In a compromise

to the silver men, a man named Stevenson was chosen as vice president. He likes silver, but we'll put a silver man in vice president. Compromise to the silver men, a man named Stevenson was chosen as vice president. He likes silver, but we'll put a silver man in vice president. Compromise, we've seen it lots of times before. We've never seen that go wrong before. No. The election was a bit different than any recent ones, however.

For a few reasons, I'm not going to go into this episode, but I will next episode. But I'll go into a little bit of detail. The Republicans had somewhat reluctantly chosen Harrison once more, although many in his party feared that he would lose. To complicate matters, the Farmers' Alliances had created a new party, known as the People's Party or the Populist Party. This was a genuine left-wing party. First one we've seen.

They wanted to do these crazy things, like take the railroads off the corrupt businesses and give them to the government to run, in the hope that the government would be less corrupt. But you can see why you get them out of the hands of the corrupt businesses. That makes

sense. They wanted shorter working weeks. They wanted direct election of senators, because that's not a thing at the moment. They wanted an income tax that, because that's not a thing at the moment. They wanted an income tax that took into account how much was earned. Just things that we take for granted today, basically.

So anyway, this election, the vote was split three ways. Although, to be fair, the People's Party only got 10% of the vote overall. So it wasn't an even three-way split. But 10% is enough. It's not sizable. It's enough to sway the election one way or the other. You're not going to win, but

you can make a difference. With the People's Party vote largely being taken away from Republicans, the Democrats were able to take the victory with relative ease. Cleveland got 277 to the Republicans 145. The People's Party, 22.

There you go. He's back in the White House. Not only that, the Democrats now have control of the House and the Senate also. Oh, so just pass whatever we want. Oh yeah. Cleveland's second inauguration was a cold affair. A blizzard had just hit the Capitol. Everyone was a bit freezing, as you can imagine.

Ice formed in Cleveland's moustache as he recited another speech from memory. Good God, it's cold. Yes. And that was it. Yeah. He called for unity, and he talked about how much fairness was needed in society. But that fairness must be achieved in a

fair way. Right. Yeah. In other words, obviously we need to be fairer, but we're not actually going to do anything about it. We must treat the Native Americans better. Oh yes, definitely. The Clevelands did not immediately move into the White House. A scarlet fever scare in the building had persuaded to keep Little Roof out for a while. However, once they did move in, they were surprised to see these newfangled electric lighting that had been installed.

Now, this wasn't new to them they weren't like screaming witchcraft no i mean they've been living in new york for a while new york had plenty of electric lighting by this point but we're doing an edison thing now no no we're not going there sorry uh but yeah no he had his uh he had his powerhouse and everything all that is going on but yeah it was nice to have some electric lighting in the White House. Yeah. However, all was... That's a weird humming.

That was just people nervous. Yeah, yeah. However, all was not well. As the president took back the reins of government, the economy utterly collapsed. It's another panic. A fifth of all the factory workers in the country lost their jobs. An already simmering country felt the heat just go up that little bit more. The Democrats, including the president,

pointed at this as proof that the Republicans' obsession with high tariffs was bad for the economy. See, they ruined the economy in just one term, was their argument. Easy to say that, isn't it? Well, one reason for the economy struggling, they ruined the economy in just one term, was their argument. Easy to say that, isn't it? Well, one reason for the economy struggling, they argued, was that people, or rather businesses who could afford to do so, were selling silver to obtain the equivalent in paper money and then using that paper money to buy the equivalent in gold.

Buying gold of lesser value. Well, just basically exchanging silver for gold is what they're doing. And then hoarding the gold. Because in reality raise the prices yeah well in reality no one believes that silver's as good as gold so you're basing both of them it's not as shiny like even if you say the gold's worth more than the silver it's like still people want the gold they hoard the gold yeah of course cleveland was certain that the only way to fix this and make sure the gold, they hoard the gold. Yeah, of course. Cleveland was certain that the only way to fix this and make sure the gold's not hoarded is to go back to follow gold standard. The Silver Purchase Act was overturned within its first year.

Yeah, so he's got rid of the Electrum standard. Yes, that's... It's a bimetallic... It's not bimetallic, it does have a name. Electrum. It's Electrum. It's the Electrum. Standard, yeah. Standard. That's exactly what it's called. Alloy. Yeah.

That's what they think the Great Pyramid was capped in. The top of the pyramid was Electrum. Nice. So it shone and glowed in the sunlight. Egyptian desert. That's why it's not there anymore. Exactly. Yes, very much so. There was another problem, though. The treasury was in a bad way

because the government was running out of gold because everyone was hoarding the bloody stuff. Yeah. Are those gold trousers? I thought you were walking funny. Well, Cleveland set up a meeting with none other than his new good friend, J.P. Morgan. It was agreed that a

banking syndicate led by J.P. Morgan would buy government bonds in exchange for hard gold, half of which would come from overseas business ties they'd got. So this would get the government more gold from outside the country as well as from in. To relieve the... Relieve the pressure, yeah. And then the banks would have a very favourable IOU from the government.

Okay. A very favourable IOU. Oh, yeah. And then the banks would have a very favourable IOU from the government. Okay. A very favourable IOU. Yeah. Oh, yes. This did not go down well with the public or Congress. J.B. Morgan refused to publicly admit how much he was going to profit from all of this, which made everyone go, oh, it must be really bad then. Three quadrillion.

Yeah. And everyone just went, oh, so that's Cleveland fully in bed with Wall Street then, is it? Ah. Yeah. His time in New York seems to have changed him. Oh dear. At least in people's eyes. Cleveland was then somewhat distracted from his official duties when he discovered a lesion in the roof of his mouth.

A lesion, not a legion. Ah. Yeah. Stop marching in there. Well, he assumed it was nothing more than a dental problem, common in the time, so he chose to ignore it, like many people do. However, after a month, it had grown so much that a doctor was called, and he was quickly diagnosed with cancer.

Ah. In fact, I'll quote the doctor here. Crap. It's a bad-looking tenant, and I would have it evicted immediately. Oh, that's a great... I would love a doctor that, wouldn't you? Yes. Let's say his name was Dr it evicted immediately. Oh, that's a great... I would love a doctor that. Yes. Let's say his name was Dr. Doctor as well.

Oh, yeah. It's a trend by this point. However, with the country in the middle of an economic crisis and violence starting to spark up, it was decided that the public really didn't need to know about the president's illness. A particular concern was that the vice president was a silver man. If Grover died, then all his push to get the gold standard would come to nothing. Wall Street, already shaken, could genuinely collapse

if they even thought that the vice president was going to become the president. So on the morning of June the 30th, 1893, the president and six of the country's best surgeons met on board a yacht belonging to a friend of Cleveland. A yacht? A yacht. Not the most stable of platforms.

But secret. Yes. Because, as far as the public were concerned, the president's going on a fishing trip. He's going to go up to his residence in Cape Cod. He's just going to have a bit of a holiday. It's fine. Once on board,

the president sat smoking cigars, waiting for the boat to sail. Well, they didn't know, did they? They didn't know. They didn't. Yeah, there is a theory that it was his chewing tobacco that actually caused this, but it's obviously not known. Yeah.

Yeah, it's all very secretive. Apparently, these six doctors, once they got onto the yacht, had to stay below decks because there was a hospital nearby and they might be recognised by the hospital staff. For God's sake, take your white coats off, man. And your name badges. Those big shiny things that they strapped to their heads for some reason. I'm guessing it's to reflect light so they can see it, I'm guessing.

Creoporations. Yeah. Never really thought they can see it, I'm guessing. Clear operations. Yeah. Never really thought about it, though, to be honest. No. But they definitely got those on. They set sail. Once far from the harbour, the operation area was set up. Because that's right, they're going to do it on the yacht.

They're not sailing somewhere. Now, you're a doctor. You're on a yacht. Yep. Where do you do the operation? Bearing in mind it needs to be as stable as possible. The bottom of the boat. The middle at the bottom of the boat would be the least moving.

Good. And what is in the middle attached to the bottom of the boat? The anchor? Not the anchor. The mast. That's the most stable bit where the mast hits the boat. I guess, yeah, because at the bottom it would be stable. Nice and stable. It was realised the President didn't really need to be lying down for this operation. Oh no. So it was realised the president didn't really need to be lying down for this operation.

Oh, no. So it was decided the most stable they could get him was to tie a chair to the mast and then strap the president in. Oh, good lord. Oh, yes. So would they then have to, like, rope his head back? Yeah. Keep his mouth open? Oh.

As we've seen in Garfield's episode medicine was ongoing a revolution at this point uh we're now seeing the other side things are getting better that's true do they clean their tools the instruments were all boiled clean wow nobody didn't see water nobody just got their finger and stuck it in various holes. It's great. Yeah, it is an improvement. The doctors wore clean, crisp clothes. Nice and prepared they were. A light bulb charged with a battery was held nearby for extra light.

All very high tech. Laughing gas and ether were used to make sure the president did not feel anything. And for the next hour and a half, the surgeons, whilst bobbing up and down in the sea, stretched out the president's cheek using some kind of tool and started to operate via the mouth. Like they do, just like a big stick

into his cheek against the other side of the boat. Like they're pressing in. Just stay still. Bit like matchsticks in the eyes but through the mouth that kind of thing. Obviously they wanted to keep this a secret. Now the easiest way to get this would have been to go through the face because it's in the mouth but

it's up into like his jaw. This tumour is. But they don't want to go through the face so they go through the mouth instead. Oh, that's awkward. Oh, yeah. The tumour, which was sizeable, five teeth, his upper left palate, and a good portion of his upper left jaw were all removed. Oh. This was serious surgery. It was all done in an hour and a half whilst bobbing up and down in the sea. And apparently it was completely successful.

Wow. Even now. This was good surgery. This is the complete opposite end of the scale to Garfield. You get the feeling that Garfield, whilst this was happening, was just rotating in his grave. What the? And every time he swore, his face would hit the soil. We'd turn around grave. What the? And every time he swore, his face would hit the soil. We'd turn around again.

What the? That mother. That sort of thing. Yeah. I can't believe it. Lots of confused people. Just a family bringing flowers to a recent-to-be-grandparent. What the hell?

He reached Cape Cod. He had his fishing holiday. Well, obviously not. He was recuperating, resting. Well, you could argue the surgeons did. Well, yeah. The surgery healed remarkably well, like really quickly. This was good.

But he had part of a jaw. It must have been... But his face was completely misshapen. Yeah. Yeah. Still, three weeks pass. Back on the yacht to go home, and that's when they fit in with an artificial jaw.

Oh, yeah. Surely it must be like a false teeth style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something that goes in. It's not like a... Yeah. Yeah, his face regained its prior shape, apparently, and he was able to speak properly once more.

Within four weeks of this quite intensive surgery, he was able to appear in public with no signs whatsoever that anything had happened. That is phenomenal. Yeah. It was literally decades later that this became public. That is amazing. Yeah. Impressive.

Wow, it really is. Yeah. Paul Garfield. His wasn't even life-threatening. No. Yeah. Poor Garfield. His wasn't even life-threatening. No. Anyway. Meanwhile, in the country, however, things were not going quite as well. Ragtag armies of farmers were starting to gather and talk about storming the capital.

Oh. Yeah. One such army did so, but it's a bit of a sad tale. It started well. They all died, didn't they? Not quite. There were thousands of them. They were angry.

Pitchforks and torches kind of thing. Yeah. But America's a big place and let's march on the capital sounds good. It probably works well when you're in England and London's not that far away, wherever you are. You can walk there within a few days. Yeah, exactly. Most places. Washington's quite far away. At least a thousand miles. Yeah, exactly. In most places. Washington's quite far away.

At least a thousand miles from Texas, surely. Well, their leader, a man named Coxie, however, was determined and carried on. But by the time they reached the capital, it was a much smaller crowd. Coxie was then arrested immediately for walking on the grass outside of the capital. He just ignored the signs, please keep off the grass.

Had the signs up there for a reason. Yeah. Penalty, instant arresting. He spent 20 days in jail, and by that time his army had kind of gone home. I thought he went sad. I thought he went genuinely heartbreaking. It's just pathetic.

Really pathetic. It started like real revolution. Thousands of farmers storming the capital. It ended up with being arrested for walking on the grass. Yeah, being incarcerated for loitering, essentially. Yeah. However, there were definitely more serious things going on as well. It's just that one amused me, so I thought I'd start with that one.

In Chicago once more, another strike had just broken out, this time against the Pullman Company. George Pullman was a typical Robert Barron type. He made a fortune out of his sleeper cars that he'd created for the railways, so people could sleep more comfortably on trains. Most trains in the country had at least one Pullman carriage on it. So, yeah, fortune. Pullman figured that the best way for a company to operate efficiently would be to have the workers live near the factories. Makes sense. Cadbury style.

Yeah. So he built a village for his workers. How nice. Cadbury and Rowntree style. Yeah. If you're not sure what we're talking about, Cadbury's is a company that makes a lot of the chocolate in this country. They also built a worker village for their workers. This worker village in America,

though, this Pullman one, was very typical of the kind of worker villages that sprung up in the world around this time, because this is the sort of Cadbury's factory kind of time. They were just dens of economic oppression. Oh yeah, workers living there, they were forced to live there, otherwise they lost their job. And if you lived there, you had to buy your food and water from the company at prices set by the company. This is quite a lot more expensive than usual. This was bad enough.

But then in 1894, Paulman cut the workers' wages by 25%, but did not adjust the price of food or water. He sounds like an arse. He sounds like a factory owner. This is not untypical. This is why the country's so angry. Some protested. They were fired immediately.

And if you're fired from the job, you've got a reputation. You found it hard to get another job. There was no just, well, just quit your job and find another job. There were no other jobs. The economy's bad. So if you were fired, you were in serious trouble, starving to death.

Anyway, the Pullman employees then appealed to the American Railway Union for help. They highlighted the awful conditions that they were forced to live in and then finished the letter that they sent with this, I'll quote, And thus the merry war, the dance of skeletons bathed in human tears, goes on, and will go on, brothers, forever, unless you, the American Railway Union, stop it, end it, crush it.

They do like their language, these strikers. They really do. Yes. Good rhetoric as well. Oh yeah, yeah, it's good. The American Railway Union decided, yes, they were going to strike, and soon it's good. The American Railway Union decided, yes, they were going to strike, and soon it was put out that Pullman carriages would not be worked upon. If a train had a Pullman carriage, people would not work on it. Now, like I said, that's most trains.

Soon enough, the whole country came to a standstill. As we have seen, a way for employers to break strikes was just to ship in new labourers for the short term. This often ended in violent struggles, as the strikers attempted to stop the picket line from being broken. Yeah. The violence escalated. The railroad companies asked Cleveland for military aid.

Cleveland was unsure to begin with. After all, he did not send aid to individuals and states. A state issue. Should he really send aid for the railway companies? Yes, he decided. Yes, he should. Yeah, he should. The rail companies, they delivered the mail, and that made it federal.

And he knew a lot of... That's coincidence. Oh, yeah. Coincidence. Pure coincidence. Yeah. He is said to have said, I'll quote here, If it takes every dollar in the treasury and every soldier in the United States to deliver a postal card in Chicago, that postal card should be delivered.

Meanwhile, things were just getting worse in Chicago. A crowd of 500 had gathered demanding that the strikers be listened to. A general protest. The police and the troops sent by Cleveland advanced on this crowd and attempted to persuade them to disperse using barbed-wired clubs and bayonets. This is now turned into WWE. The crowd were dispersed ruthlessly. Oh. Onlookers looked on in horror and then joined in

when they saw the crowd were just being attacked. In fact, I'll quote here, the ground over which the fight had occurred was like a battlefield. The men shot by the troops and police lay around like logs. So again, we've got another massacre going on.

Several of these are going on, and they're all arguably bigger if not as big as the Boston Massacre that we talked about at the start. Yeah. Things are not going start. Yeah. Yeah. Things are not going well. No. 13 people were killed in this one, many more seriously injured.

And as you can imagine, the strike was crushed. By the end of the strike, over 30 people had been killed. Now, legally, the government aided the railroads to place an injunction on the union. Yeah. Because the strike continued, the leader of the union was arrested after being demonised in the press for being a dictator. Obviously, it's very easy

to demonise someone in the press when you own the press. Well, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't happen now, though, I think. Oh, no, no. Not at all. Anyway, the working and living conditions for those working in the Pullman Company did not improve whatsoever. They were forced to bury the dead and carry on. So there

you go. That's the end of that tangent. Pleasant times. A couple of other events do happen during Cleveland's presidency, but for time reasons, we do need to cut them short. Just know there was a diplomatic row with Britain at one point over Venezuela and land, and the US firmly announced that the Monroe Doctrine was still a thing, definitely, and if anyone from Europe comes around messing around in the Americas, they'd have to face the United States. Pretty bit more confident though, aren't they? Oh yes, they were. They flexed a bit of muscle and they rightly pointed out, just as before, like we're a long way away from you, you're going to struggle to come over here and keep yourselves provided for. And we're stronger than we've ever been before.

Which is true. Yeah. So war drums start to beat. People start really going a bit gung-ho for the idea of another war with Britain. But then certain big business owners realised that actually war can be profitable for certain

companies, but there are a lot of companies that figured it wouldn't help them. Certain pressure was put in certain places, and all of a sudden the newspapers were a lot less pro-war. This is the British Tribute Edition. Everything we love about the Queen. Also, some stuff's going on with Hawaii, but that links to Harrison, so I'm not going to go into it here.

We'll save that for his episode. I don't know if he's even found Hawaii. It's such a small place in the middle of the ocean. We'll go into it more next time, don't worry. We will. Just know that Cleveland reversed some decisions that Harrison made that made annexing the island possible. Okay.

So Harrison wanted Hawaii, Cleveland saying we don't need Hawaii, at least not in this way. I'll go into details in the next episode. And then his term was coming to an end. By this time, the internal politics of the Democrats had shifted. The People's Party had collapsed completely. It was a short-lived thing. And most of their supporters had headed to the Democrats.

Their faction was now the dominant one. And they were calling for silver currency, and they labelled their own president as a gold-obsessed Wall Street puppet puppet it's not too far from the truth no it's not during the convention their leader brian that's his surname william brian spout with a y but it sounds amazing delivered a passionate speech ending with our quote here you shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns. You shall not crucify mankind upon this cross of gold. One of those sentences

that sounds really good and then you look at it a bit more and go, hmm? Yeah. Why use one word when you can use seven? Yeah. Brian swept away the competition and took the nomination. So we could, we could have had a president brian wow unfortunately

we don't oh yeah uh but i mean we're starting here the very very start of recognizing the modern democrat party okay it fluctuates and changes yeah we are now starting to see from the Democrats not states' rights, planter-owner rights. We're starting to see the more worker rights going into the left wing, kind of. We're starting to see that shift. You say left wing. Well, yeah, exactly. Like I say, it fluctuates and changes, but this is the first time we're going to recognise anything linked to the modern Democrat Party. And we're very now close to 1900 as well. Oh, yes, we are. I'm going to recognise anything linked to the modern Democrat Party. And we're very close to 1900 as well.

Oh, yes, we are. I'm going to start knowing things. Wow. The Republicans chose the man who had pushed for the higher tariffs during the Harrison presidency. The tariffs were known as the McKinley tariffs because the man was named McKinley. McKinley. McKinley, yeah. But whoever won out of them, it's McKinley. I've heard of President McKinley mckinley mckinley mckinley yeah um but whoever won out of them it's mckinley

i've heard of president mckinley yeah cleveland was out and that hadn't been certain by the way some had supported him for a third term but it was not to be so he retired once more this time the clevelands moved to new jersey grover and francis had more children for a while he was a trustee at princeton he was still vocal on some matters. For example, as the women's suffrage movement started up, he made it very clear. So, what are you expecting? Women should not be able to

vote. I'll quote, sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by man and woman in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, in 1907, that's right, 1907. Oh my goodness. Seven years away from World War I. Yeah. He became ill. Insane. It is insane.

We're so close. His health had not been good for some time. He'd slept with a stomach pump next to his bed, apparently. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's pump next to his bed, apparently. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's not just feeling a bit unwell. No, no. That's a...

Anyway. That's I need to remove stuff. In 1908, he suffered a heart attack and died. His last words were said to have been, I have tried so hard to do what is right. So we now get to judge to see if he really did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

That's statement shit! Okay, so, rapid rise through the government. Some might say obscenely so. I mean, he was sheriff, mayor, governor, and then president within just a couple of years. So it's like he paid for it or something. I don't think there's any evidence of that. But I think there is any evidence of that.

But I think there is a certain case to be said that it's a perfect example of being in the right place at the right time. Yeah, yeah. He stood for certain things, such as the anti-corruption, which really meant that he stood out in certain places. And he just got bloody lucky. And he worked really hard as well. And a combination of those two things, yeah, he just found himself being the president incredibly quickly. While in the posts, like I say, he had no truck with corruption. There wasn't a whiff of corruption about him, really.

No. Maybe a little bit towards the end. But, I mean, we're way off Chester Arthur. Yeah, that's true. He often personally made sure that things were on the level. Saying this, however, he didn't really do too much to end the spoils system. I mean, he fired literally thousands of people just so he could give democratic supporting people jobs. Now, this is nothing new. This has been going on since America started. But things were supposed to be different now. Things were supposed to be

changing. And they're not quite there yet yeah so is it i i guess you may have justified that by saying yeah but i'm anti-corruption yeah yeah i mean it's maybe it's a bit harsh to say well why didn't you sort this out why weren't you the first one to sort it out because it needs to be done he did it in a sort of a you know things take time there's a process towards any any big movement you can't do it in one because that just causes problems. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, you could say that. He is known as the veto president, or at least he was at the time. He vetoed anything

that he felt was not federal government's business. And at the beginning you could argue actually he had a point. He may not agree with it, but it was a fair point. He fully believes in small government. I don't personally believe necessarily in the small government, certainly not the style of small government that Cleveland was

going for. Doesn't mean that it's inherently wrong. And he did believe it and thought it was right so maybe we shouldn't criticise him too much because at least he followed his beliefs in the idea of small government. And lots of people did as well. Yeah. That said, a bit harsh on the Texans. Yeah.

Come on. We money's out here. Yeah. We're dying. There's an argument to be said that he stabilised the economy. He reduced the government's purchase of silver and he acquired more gold. The economy was in an awful way. It completely crashed and he did help it to

mend. It's not great that the likes of J.P. Morgan made a huge amount of money whilst doing it. But you could argue it's a means to an end because it overall did support the country even if he had to make a sacrifice. Yeah it just doesn't look good. It doesn't look good but you could argue that. We didn't go into the whole Hawaii thing but just know that many were looking to simply take over the island. Cleveland stated it was not the business of the United States

to do it. So, I mean, that's quite positive. So it's anti-invasion, isn't it? Yeah. More anti-Chinese laws were passed, fully supported by Cleveland. For example, if a Chinese person left the country, they were not allowed back in. Even if they went on holiday? Yeah.

Oh. Yeah. Okay. So that's about it really. I mean he's he's not bad. He's not bad but there's a bitter taste though. Yeah. I don't think he was a bad president. He certainly isn't a wonderful one though. I mean nothing amazing happens. Oh that's the next

round. Don't worry. Sorry. I'm very eager. I think a 5 or a 6 is I think middle of the road. I don't think it's anything amazing. I don't think i'm very eager i think uh five or six is i think middle of the road i don't think it's anything amazing i don't think it's awful put me down for a five matching me that's a total of 10 well let's go through some things let's start with the big one the most uncomfortable and depressing and horrible one maria hal Now, if we believe the worst case scenario, that Grover Cleveland raped a woman, got her pregnant, took her son off her, placed him in an orphanage, and then tried to get her committed to an insane asylum, it sounds awful. Really,

really bad. Or we could take the best case scenario showing Cleveland in the best possible light in which case it was Folsom's child and the rape did not happen but all the rest still did in which case it's still awful just maybe not quite as hideously awful

so it's a choice between really bad or really really really bad that's something we don't know there is no way of knowing but what I'm going to say is that So it's a choice between really bad or really, really, really bad. That's something we don't know. We don't know. There is no way of knowing. But what I'm going to say is that whatever it is, it's awful. Yes. So I think we can just chalk it up as a really bad thing that happened.

Yeah. Instead of really, really, really bad and really bad, just average it to really, really bad. Yeah. Let's say that. Then we've got the fact that he marries the child that he watched grow up, which, as we've said, is just icky. I mean, there's nothing illegal. I mean, you can happily argue there's nothing morally wrong.

It's two adult consenting people in a relationship where they appear to love each other. But at the same time, she called him Uncle Cleve. I mean, we are viewing it from modern eyes. We are. Because I imagine this are viewing it from modern eyes. We are. Because I imagine this thing happened probably more... Yeah. Back then, but it's still weird. Let's face it, it still happens now. If you get a rich enough old man,

you get young women attached to them quite often. But yeah, so, you've got that. There is the rumour that he drunkenly beat Francis. But like I say, this one has no supporting evidence whatsoever, unlike the others. It's just... Yeah, it's very hard to make a judgement of that.

But you could, like playing devil's advocate there, you could also say he was very good at hiding information, like his operation. Yes. He knew how to do that. There is certainly that, isn't there? He was an obvious sexist and racist, although he had little opportunity for it to show officially. Obviously, the whole Chinese thing, obviously very officially racist. And the suffrage thing. Yeah, but he wasn't

in an official capacity there. That was his personal opinion. That's disgrace. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, my point being that he doesn't show through too much in history because in an official capacity it doesn't shine through. But when you're looking into little details, he just seems like a bit of a horrible person. Yeah. Okay, in his defence, however, because I've just been hammering on at him here,

he worked with blind kits for a year. He did. But to be fair, though, he was horrified at the situation yeah he was and he didn't revel in that he didn't enjoy it he thought this is really bad for those people yeah so yes there you go yeah that's it that's all i've got well he paid the old guy back at the beginning remember he's they they paid for his tuition he did pay someone back who had loaned him money he did also pay for someone else to go to war for him. Cancel that straight away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which, um... I'd argue that's worse. I think that actually, yeah, minuses it even more. I mean, again, it was a legal thing to do, nothing illegal. And also, it's like, you can understand why people don't want to go to war, so I can understand that. And I'll be honest, I would probably do that if I was in that position. Send me, I know you would. I that if i was in that position me i know you

would i would send my own child instead of me but then he also became the president and uh i just realized what he said he also then became president and then stopped soldiers from getting a pension i mean that just but i think i got the reason why for that i don't think it was critical you can also understand why people were so angry yeah i don't the reason why for that. I don't think it was hidden critical. You can also understand why people were so angry. Yeah. I don't think the reasons for that were bad. I think he had a good reason for doing that. But like you said, that wasn't a popular thing.

No. Because there were also good reasons to be angry about it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Any thoughts? That's definitely minus. That's my main thought.

Where are we going? I'm going high. I'm definitely going high. See the slave thing though. The slave thing, but remember in context. Owning slaves when you're in a society with slaves, being born into a slave economy means you're going to own slaves. If there are no slaves around, then that can't happen.

Anyone born in the South to rich parents would automatically own slaves. It's about what they did in that situation. So we tended to score a base level, some points on slavery, for presidents that owned slaves. But those presidents who then went on to try and get rid of slavery, we didn't punish too harshly. Those that tried to push slavery, even though they didn't own slaves, were getting in about the minus sevens.

It was more about their actions afterwards. Fair point. Minds eight. Minds eight. Okay. I feel I'd persuaded you about halfway through speaking there. Yeah, you could have stopped about a minute ago. Yeah.

It just feels horrible putting numbers to some of these things because it's just nasty, horrible stuff. It's so hard to do, yeah. Yeah, so I'm not going to dwell on it too much. I'm just going to go for a gut feeling. I'm going to join your eight, minus 16. When we started, the whole idea of Disgracegate was I had Watergate in my head.

I had, like, scandals. There's scandals and then there's, like, scandals. Yeah. Right, next round. Silver Spring. I think this is a bigger round for him, actually. OK. He was born to a relatively poor family.

Not destitute, but relatively poor. He worked the canals for a while to make some extra money. He worked as a clerk, if you remember. Really wanted to get educated, but his father died. So to make money, he went to go and work for a year in a blind asylum. See, this would be one or two episodes where he builds on

to be quite a nice guy. And then he goes to Buffalo. There you go. That's one episode in the show. This is the debauchery episode. Yeah. Oh, we were contacted by a listener who grew up in Buffalo. He agreed there was definitely a pub on every corner. Excellent.

Well done, Buffalo. You're an example to us all. Whilst in Buffalo, he became a lawyer, which is impressive from pretty much nothing. He hated the firm he worked for to begin with, but eventually he got a job there as a lawyer. He met his good friend Oscar Folsom and started a law firm with him. He also met Folsom's wife and then their baby daughter. He then got involved. I'm just going to say got involved because we don't know all the details and let's not dwell on it anymore, but with Maria Halpin all that happened. It was all very unclear, but we know that it was not pleasant. That's a depressing episode. Yeah. Around the same

time, he became the sheriff and then the governor and then the president. I mean, that sounds like it's going to be several episodes, but I mean, that would be one episode. Yeah. Because, oh, sorry, I missed out mayor. He became the mayor, the governor and then the president. But yeah, it happened rapidly. Then he marries his good friend's daughter. Oh, Oscar died in a tragic accident. We could have that. We could actually link that to some kind of weird conspiracy because we're making a film, why not?

That's true. So yeah, they get married in the White House. That's nice, isn't it? He could do something about that. He becomes president. He loses the presidency. He gets the presidency back. He has surgery on a yacht. Oh, that'd be a great episode. And then the country starts falling apart

because people are fed up of the rich taking everything. I think it's quite an interesting story. Yeah. It's not amazing, but it's not bad. I think it's five or six. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking mid-marks. That's what I'm thinking. I'm going to go

for five. Yeah, right. Ten Missabilities. Here we go. Oh, look at that tash. Oh, yeah. This is not a bearded president. This is a mustachioed president. Our first one. I like that. Yeah. I do like that. You're getting bonus points for a moustache.

That is bushy as hell. Yeah. Imagine that with the icicles in it. Oh, they'd be going down tooustache. That is bushy as hell. Yeah. Imagine that with the icicles in it. Oh, they'd be like down to his chin. That is beautiful. And very stylistically similar to like Washington. You've got the red table, the dark wooden chair. Yeah, we're back on the chair with the table and the dark red again. And it's very Victorian now, very Dutch.

It's not the best table and chair combo because it's a bit zoomed in. There's no constitution lying there. There's no Roman buildings in the background. It's that sort of Victorian formality now, isn't it? It's more sort of stately rather than grand. I mean, it's got a bit more detail than just a plain background, though. So I do like that. It's all right.

I'm going six. I'm going five. I'm not as impressed as you. No, I'm actually going six. I like the moustache too much. Yeah, no, that is the moustache that pulled it up a bit for me. So that is a total of three for canvas ability. Bonus! Terms.

Two. Non-consecutive. Which toyed with the idea of a bonus point for that because he's the only person to do it, but then I thought, no. No, two terms. Yeah, two terms. Two points. If I liked the guy more, maybe he would have got a bonus point. Assassination. No.

No? Not even his doctors. Election. If you get both of them and average them, you get one. However, we now have a discussion. Because he lost an election. Do we consider that? Should we say

if you lose an election, you should have a point taken off you? Because if you lose an election, you should have a point taken off you? Because if you lose the popular vote, you have a point deducted. Usually meaning you end up with zero because you probably didn't win by that much. It's been a while since I've explained how this particular round works because I worked it all out at the start. But you get all elections that take place. Yeah. Successful elections that take place.

All elections that take place, successful elections that take place, you then get their electoral college wins, and you get an average of what percentage they won their elections by. Right. Oh, yeah, like a landslide or... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There is a cut-off point at 70% that I've said is a landslide. Cleveland, if you take his two victorious elections,

got 58% of the electoral college. So he gets one point for his victories. Cleveland, if you take his two victorious elections, got 58% of the electoral college. So he gets one point for his victories. But he lost an election, which is pretty bad. So I'm thinking take a point off. So zero. Zero. But he won an election.

And I think for that he needs 0.5. But we have had in the past presidents that won the election but lost the popular vote. And then you got one. And they get zero. Really? Yeah. Okay. All right.

Zero. There we go. Right. Zero it is. Cool. If I do decide to edit some of that out, just know that that conversation lasted a long time. Two hours. Right.

Okay. Right. American or American. Oh, hell no. No. American or American? Oh, hell no. No, just definitely not. Absolutely not. Definitely not. No way in hell. We've come across some wrong-uns.

He's one of them. He's one of them, definitely. I think it's safe to say I would not share a beer with him, given the opportunity. No. Or you could do just as ask why. I would. Why why i'd spend the entire time having a beer explaining what podcasts are in the future and what score he got oh fantastic okay right there we go that's cleveland and that is our halfway point really

yeah oh wow that's if we had done one episode per president, which was the original plan, I think we even say that in the first episode, this would have been Trump's episode. Wow. Yeah. We'd have finished. We would have done. Gosh.

But we're doing two, so we're only halfway. Interesting. That also means that next time in the president slot, we do not have a president episode. Well, we do have a president episode, but we're not reviewing a president. We're having a mini break to do a State of the Union episode, but a special halfway point

with a mystery guest. In theory, we've not actually completely set that up yet, so hopefully it'll happen. I genuinely have no idea what's going on. Rob is not disgusted with me, but I'll go, yes, it's very exciting. i assumed you'd seen through the twitter personal message thing no you clearly haven't read that yeah no no no in theory

in theory fingers crossed uh probably should have organized it a bit more than that to be honest now i'm thinking about it it's in two weeks so we need to get that sort of exciting but yeah so yeah we're going to do a halfway point to review. That's our plan next time. Unless the interview thing falls apart, in which case we'll just do a normal episode. So you'll find out soon enough. Right, okay. Anyway, thank you for downloading us on Podbean and iTunes,

and thank you for following us on Facebook and Twitter. And yeah, do all the reviews, and happy President's Day, if you happen to be listening to this in the future on Presidents Day which it's not when we're recording no and why would you listen to Grover Cleveland's second episode fools

there are definitely better episodes better Presidents to focus on on this day the holiest of days right okay until next time goodbye goodbye ah chad oh um hi i I wasn't expecting you today. Well, today is inspection day of the new project.

I saw the money you've invested in this, so we're hoping for something good. The money you've invested has been spent brilliantly. I'll say that right away. This plinth, rock solid. That's good. I can see that. Are they dog footprints in the concrete? Yeah, we'll sand that down or something. Okay. Yes, no, That's good. I can see it. Are they dog footprints in the concrete?

Yeah, we'll sand that down or something. Okay. Yes, no, it's fine. It's fine. The plinth. The plinth. I am proud of the plinth. It's a good word, plinth.

It's a very good plinth. Plinth. Any update on the statue? Yes. No, well, I suppose you can see it, can't you? I can see a massive sheet. Yes, well, we decided it would be a surprise, a big sheet, pull it off.

Ah, so nothing has gone wrong? Wrong? You haven't put the sheet on because you're hiding anything? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I can definitely say it is a statue. Ah, so could I see this statue then? Well, yes, no, no, no, no. Oh, good. No, I can definitely say it is a statue. Ah.

So could I see this statue then? Well, yes, obviously. Quick question. Did you ever see the design that the French sent over? We have many, many blueprints. Oh, so you do know what it's supposed to look like? From every angle. Right.

Okay. Interesting you say from every angle. You can see a lot of the angles. Ah, because looking at the blueprints, it's not very angular. No. Um, no. Chad, take off the sheet. Well, I really would.

It takes a team of like a hundred people. Chad, take off the sheet. It's quite heavy. Pull it. Dad, we're going to practice Operation Bedsheet! Yeah, no! No, no. Yeah, no, I'm under orders. We're doing it.

Oh, dear. God almighty. What? What's the matter? It's a bit more abstract than I was expecting. Yes, no. I was surprised, too. Did you not see the revised plans the French sent over?

Yes, no. They decided last minute, apparently, to really go for more of a feel of America rather than a literal representation of a personification of an ideal. A feel of America? It's like the feel of a car accident. Where the hell's the face? Oh, well, if you turn your head sideways and if you look, look, no, look further down, further down. Yes, by the feet further down, further down. Yes. By the feet. Oh, dear God.

I mean, that's half of it. And I think the other eyes, I want to say it's that bit there. I don't know. I understand these are very stressful times. Instructions are hard to follow. You are under a time limit. I can forgive that. That will go in my report, Chad.

Oh, good, good. But I do have one query. Yes? What's with the dragon? He won't go away. Um, it would appear... Ah! Beer is spilling.

Would you like a thing? A word I can't say. I screamed halfway through a sentence. A manly, manly... Raw. Raw. A manly raw over my spilled beer.

What sentence was I on? Oh, yeah.