American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 24 Mid Way Review

Episode Date: March 8, 2020

We are half way! And what better way to celebrate than to chat through our rankings so far with the wonderful Jerry Landry from the Presidencies Podcast. Not only that, but we answer your questions (read in a variety of different accents by Jamie!) What more could you want?

You say it, because I'm forgetting how to speak. I don't know what you're saying. Jerry's podcast. Oh, you're just pointing at the microphone. That's where Jerry is! Okay, me! Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Midpoint Review.

Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. I'm Rob. And I'm Jerry. It's a third person. It's amazing. It is. Our mystery guest is, of course, the wonderful Jerry from the Presidency's Podcast, who was just so fun to talk to last time.

He's back on the show. Hello, everyone. Right, okay. It's our midpoint review. This is episode 23. We are halfway through the Presidents. Did you think we'd get there, Jamie? No, it seems really too early.

I guess comparing it to Roman Emperors, this is, well, nothing. I think we've got 45 presidents. Well, no. 44. 44, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Good start. Yeah, so, I mean, it's been fun.

I've enjoyed it. It's been tricky at times, but we'll get into that later. Speaking for the listeners, I can say that we've been enjoying listening. Oh, thank you very much. It it's good this is like instant listener feedback instant validation thank you right so you might be wondering why what is this

what's going on in the midpoint review so we've put a lot of thought and effort into this haven't we Jamie and after a lot of deliberation we have decided we're just going to have a bit of a chat about each of the rounds and where the presidents fit in those rounds and to support us with that

we think we'll get a genuine real life American to help us yeah for when we're struggling to remember which one's which yeah and then we've got listener questions you guys have sent us loads of questions some fun some serious some mathematical I liked those ones. Yeah, so

we're going to go through those. So let's start. I think sound guys need it. Okay. Statesmanship. Okay, statesmanship. I think this is our most traditional round in terms of looking at presidents and ranking them. Yeah. I think this is a... In my head, this was always the straightforward,

how good were they as a president? We're basing it on their presidency rather than their life. Yeah. You have to remind me, did we count their pre-presidency? So if they held office, for example, like John Quincy Adams did, who was Secretary of State, did we... Yes, he was, Jamie.

That was impressive, pulling out a fact there. I like that. It's amazing what we can do with Wikipedia printed out in front of you. Wikipedia is our friend. We have, in the past, we have been judging on not just their presidency, but what they have done for the country. Yes. Officially.

It's generally how we've gone for this. So what we're going to do is we're just going to have a quick look at our top five and see if we think we're right. So at the moment, as it stands, we have got in fifth place, we have got Monroe. Oh, and coming in closely at number four, we've got Madison. Well, sort of. Because in joint second place. Yeah, yeah. See, and coming in closely at number four, we've got Madison. Well, sort of. Because in joint second place, yeah, yeah, you see look there, we've got Washington, Jefferson

and Madison in joint second place, all on 17. And then we have the man himself, Abraham Lincoln. Turkey gobbler. Yes, on 18. So, that is us officially saying that Lincoln, as a statesman, was better than Washington and Jefferson and Madison and Monroe.

That's quite a bold statement. It is a bold statement. And I don't know how much people would agree with us. And this is where, instead of just idly speculating, we can turn to our genuine American and say, Jerry, do you agree? I actually do. And I think that this gets to kind of with the statesmanship category. With Lincoln, so much of his statesmanship is based on his presidency. Whereas you see with Washington and Jefferson and Madison and even Monroe, they had these extensive careers before getting to the presidency, and in some cases,

a little bit after. But with Lincoln, I think just what he was able to achieve as president, he faced a situation unlike anything that his predecessors and even arguably his successors have faced. The nation disintegrated. The nation came apart and it was up to him to figure out how to bring it back together. And for that alone, I think that you're right in ranking him up as the highest. And likewise, many historians of presidential history have done the same. of presidential history have done the same i'm not gonna lie i'm slightly disappointed in us because it is the boring answer it's lincoln and i was kind of hoping for something different but i mean did think uh going into this oh well it's he won the civil war and then he got killed so obviously he's going to be seen as brilliant but then I got to the point where I thought, well, what if he hadn't won the Civil War? What if the South had won?

It's like, you know what? I'd still be impressed with him. Because it wasn't just the winning of the Civil War. It's the way he managed to hold the Republican Party together and the Democrats that were around still. It was genuinely politically impressive. Yeah, I mean, 18 out of 20 is pretty much top mark. What do you think, Jeremy? Would you give Lincoln 20 or would you err more towards the 18, 17 sort of mark? I would probably aim more towards like the 18, maybe 19 mark. just because I think that, I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect score.

And part of that is because, and speaking as an American, we approach the presidency in, as a reflection of our, our hopes and our ideals, and nobody's ever really going to live up to that. You know, we, we all have this idea of what the presidency should be and, and that's different for everybody. So I don't know that we're ever going to get to that perfect statesman, but Lincoln comes very, very close And especially to your point, Rob That he not only worked to bring the nation back together But he also had to be a party leader He had to keep the Republicans together And he had to help to attract people

Who were on the Democratic side But not necessarily secessionists, not, you know, wanting to support the effort. And you see that with his choice of Andrew Johnson as his running maid in 1864, trying to appeal to that group. It was challenging. And I almost wonder, because you see with some of the folks who came right before Lincoln, Buchanan, You see with some of the folks who came right before Lincoln, Buchanan, Pierce had been in politics before, Polk had been heavily involved in politics. And you wonder if it had been somebody who had that extensive history, if they really would have been able to do what Lincoln did, if his being an outsider helped him in some respects. Interesting talking about the presidents that surround Lincoln, because this leads us perfectly into who's at the bottom of this round. Because we've got in joint 17th place, Garfield, Fillmore,

and I'm afraid to say, Harrison. I know that pains you But then, in 20th place, we've got Pierce with a single point, and then in joint last place we have the two men who sat either side of Lincoln. We've got Buchanan and Johnson. They didn't get a single point. It does make me wonder how much is Lincoln praised because he's surrounded by these, let's be polite, not very good presidents. And also how much are Buchanan and Johnson vilified because they are sandwiching Lincoln, which is an interesting sentence. With Buchanan and Johnson, again, you see these people with pretty extensive careers that were also very divisive. Buchanan alone was on paper one of the best qualified people to come

to the presidency. He had this extensive career. He had worked in various roles as U.S. Minister to Britain, as Secretary of State. He had this wealth of knowledge and had been involved in politics for decades, but the nation fell apart under him. He wasn't able, and not only fell apart, his cabinet, some of his cabinet members were actually helping in that effort. And so I think they definitely, and you see with both of them, they typically, when historians are asked, they typically show up at the very bottom. And I think for that reason, because they were so divisive and this idea of the presidency being something, being an office that brings people together, they were the exact opposite of that. that brings people together, they were the exact opposite of that.

Yeah. So I think, as this is our most traditional round, I think it makes sense that we have a list here that is fairly typical, fairly standard. I imagine people who know their American history would have been able to predict the broad strokes of what we've done there. But then we go on to our next round, where things are a bit different.

This is great. So in fifth place is Grant, Harrison and Van Buren, with only minus four apiece. That's respectable, out of minus twenty. We've got three joint second places. We've got Adams, John Quincy Adams and Lincoln. Pretty good for the Adams family there. And then, obviously, number one, and I'm still not 100% certain this is correct, but it's Hayes getting zero because he is such a happy man he's a lollipop isn't he he is and uh apparently

as far as i can tell he never did anything wrong but he would not surprise me if i just missed something um can i just say i'm so glad that y'all enjoyed Hayes so much when we when we talked the last time I think I mentioned that Hayes was one that you could look forward to and so I was very glad that that prediction proved to be correct it was an interesting one researching Hayes I genuinely one of the hardest points in doing this entire podcast was starting to research Hayes. I got about three or four days into looking into his life and it's like, how do we make his life in any way interesting? And then I started reading his diaries. And it's like, oh, this is amazing.

And now he is probably my favourite president. So yeah, no, that's really good. I don't know, have you ever come across anything that you think means Hayes should have picked up a point or two? Were we too kind on him just because we loved how ridiculously optimistic he was? I actually don't think so. Hayes is one that's always fascinated me. And as I was going through, because I did a project where I read a biography of each president from the beginning. When I got to Hayes, again, he's one that even most Americans don't know much about.

And so I didn't know much about him. But the more I read, the more interested I got in him. And the fact that the only way that he's really known nowadays, if at all, is for the election of 1876 and all the controversy about that. But you see in him this president who comes to office under this cloud and really works for four years to try and prove himself and prove that the nation can trust him again. And it succeeds. You know, the fact that Garfield was elected in 1880 is a testament, and elected without question, is a testament to how much Hayes was able to do

to restore confidence in himself during his four years and in the party and in the institution of the presidency. We talk about hidden gems a lot in the Roman Emperor series. I think Hayes is the hidden gem in the presidency so far. So I think it's also fair to say he's not really known, certainly in the UK. Oh, not at all in the UK whatsoever. I've never heard of him.

No, and I'm also, I'm guessing I'm not too far off in saying the average American probably wouldn't really know much about him either. Absolutely not. No. Right, so, well done, Hayes. You are our least disgraceful president, which is great. Now we go to the other end of the list. And again, in the Roman series, this is just fun, but it just stops becoming fun in this series.

Yeah. Because you just get a group of people that you'd really rather not spend any time with. In 19th place, we have Andrew Johnson. Oh, joint with Tyler. Yeah. 20th place, we have Cleveland. Yes, very recently done.

In 21st place, Buchanan. Oh, and in 22nd place, he's the man. He's Jackson. Yeah, it's a full marks minus 20 for Jackson. Thoughts on that? Have we been too harsh on anyone there? Or have we been too nice on them?

I think these are pretty fair scores, and especially Andrew Jackson is one that in terms of my podcast, I'm almost dreading getting to because I've read so much about him over the years and I just I don't like him the the only the only light-hearted part of it is you, all the duels that he had and the assassination attempt where he ended up beating the guy with the cane. But even that, it's just like, he's just, this is a very violent and awful man. Yeah.

Yeah. He's an interesting character. I'll give him that. he is definitely a character and he clearly stood for things um and some of those things you can admire he fully believed in a democracy that wasn't just for the elite to an extent um and uh that's good certainly for the time that was good but then there are other things about him that you just go no jackson um and then it always comes back to it in my mind the four steph marches because as soon as you get four steph marches i mean he just tips it over uh i i don't see how he could not have got four marks in this round you see people like cleveland um again somebody who's not well known but then you start digging into and and especially

with his personal life i mean it's it is very disgraceful um yeah ty Again, you know, it's almost a mix of his personal life as well as his political life ending up basically endorsing the Confederacy, becoming a part of the Confederacy government. And Buchanan as well. And it does become a mix of how much do you count the personal versus the professional. But I think that it's justified in judging both in that it bleeds over. If somebody is not a kind person in their personal life, then how do you think that they're going to approach their professional life yeah yeah um i don't know jamie any more thoughts on disgrace gate before we move on i just think about jack was calhoun around at the same time as jackson yes he was around the same time as jackson yeah do you not remember the toe stuff yeah well i'm thinking now were they the same person no but they were the perfect foils for each other it is um one of the main things i like about that time in history is uh it's the time in american history where

it most feels like you're reading about characters rather than actual people and i do like getting presidents and making them seem like real people because they were real people but when you've got jackson and calhoun going against each other it is an element of comic book starting yeah which i quite like and and to be fair to to jackson that's one of the few redeeming qualities that he has is that he he so opposed john c calhounoun. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which, again, Edg Jackson is an interesting character. You can't help but be drawn to him.

He was a rabbit lover. Who, Calhoun? No, no, Jackson. Yeah, Jackson. That would make sense. So many rabbits. So little time. You can see why Jackson's a name that people remember.

I would debate whether he's remembered for the right reasons, though, sometimes. But that leads us quite nicely, seeing as the segue here, to Silver Screen. Silver Screen. Because our number one for Jackson, cancelling out the minus 20 for Disgrace Gate, is his full marks for Silver Screen. The only person to get full marks in this category.

Yeah. Well, he's as despicable, as vile, as horrendous as he was. It was interesting. You'd make a fantastic HBO series. His life. You've got the beginnings of his life where he is struck round the face by a British officer.

Oh, yeah. Scarring him. His whole family dying of the lurgy, I think it was, if I remember correctly. That's cooties, if you're an American. And then, like you said earlier, Gerry, the jewels do make it interesting. His whole life story is punctuated by these short, horrific, violent acts

that are just about long enough ago for you to get a bit interested and excited about rather than horrified exactly and and it's it's fascinating to me um the fact that there's been a john adams mini-series and not one on andrew jackson i mean i've got to think that somebody in hollywood has thought you know how do we bring jackson to the silver? He seems like the perfect character and especially in almost an anti-hero that people would be interested in. It'd be so tricky though, to make him likable.

I think even though you've got the distance of time, like just a death march is alone. You can look at him and go, Oh, there's a card. I mean you you wouldn't necessarily need to make him likable though you just have to make him but if you want to make the character like your lead characters often quite relatable aren't they yeah you kind

of see an ounce of goodness in them yeah and and i think that may be where his relationship with rachel comes in yes you see that he has this soft side of him and i think that may be a point where people can start to relate but i think you really do have to portray him as an anti-hero as somebody who isn't really likable but is interesting like dexter exactly yeah i mean the fact that i mean again going back to calhoun is like who's the obvious villain in jackson's story well it's it's essentially jackson it's just somebody else who is uh just equally reprehensible in so many ways um but anyway i i can't disagree with my past self. I think he deserves the 20 marks for just being a fascinating character in history.

Whether anyone will ever make a series about him, I don't know if it's possible, but I would watch it. I know that for sure. Well, if we keep those donations coming in, you never know. We could do one, couldn't we? Suck puppets?

Yeah. Okay, that can be our one million download special. Sock puppet video on Jackson's life. Yes. Fantastic. That's a guarantee. That's not a guarantee. Number two, joint number two, Washington and John Quincy Adams.

I believe we talked about John Quincy Adams and why we've given him too many points last time that we talked to you, Jerry, if I'm remembering correctly. Because every time I look at that, I go, oh, is that too high? But then I just remember all the stuff that he did, going around Europe and going all to the fancy balls and everything.

I like John Quincy Adams. And even the more mundane stuff, like him being a lawyer in his younger years. Was that just out of the blue there,eremy you just just hedging your bets no i watched i watched the show so i i know we got the guy off after killing of course you've seen the yeah his father's mini-series haven't you plus i listened to the report of course you also listen yeah yeah well and and and john quincy i i think he's one of the presidents that people know the name but don't really know much about him but once they start learning about him i've heard more people you know talk about how interesting he is how fascinating he is how

they're kind of drawn into his story so i I think that is justified, having him up at the top. And likewise, you see Washington up there. And of course, Washington's got to be up there. His life is this epic. But the problem with Washington and the problem of getting him to the big screen is the monument of Washington, this idea of Washington just being this almost deity in American history. And for me, the more interesting parts of Washington's life are times that he wasn't so great, that he really does reveal his humanity. And I think that that would make a great translation,

but I really think you have to do that and avoid this, this idolatry, this, this worship of Washington and, and it, the story just isn't as interesting. Yeah. Um,

I, it was fascinating finally getting to learn about this name. Who's just such a big name. The thing that's always stuck with me with Washington is, like you say, his story is amazing, but him as a person, he just seems so boring. He had a fascinating, interesting life, but you know if you were going around to visit him,

he'd just be talking about crop rotation. He'd be talking to you, but you could tell that he just wants you to go away now because he's got stuff to do. Yeah, I wasn't quite expecting such a stubborn man who just had a sense of what he should be doing. I was expecting more charisma from the founding father of America. We've been spoiled by Hollywood, haven't we?

Yeah, I think so. But I like that fact. I like that Washington was like that. Exactly. And to me, that would be a more interesting story, seeing this person who is such a public figure, who can't, you know, at a time that, and we can't really think of this nowadays, we think of

knowing so many famous figures and knowing what they look like. People didn't necessarily know what, you know, John Adams or Thomas Jefferson looked like, but they knew Washington because Washington's likeness was all over the place. And so he was trapped in what we think of in the 20th century and 21st century, this idea of a star. He couldn't travel anywhere without everybody knowing who he was, but he rejected that. He didn't want that pomp and circumstance. But he rejected that. He didn't want that pomp and circumstance. He saw himself as being a simple person. He wanted to go and plan a new barn for Mount Vernon. He wanted, like you said, talk about crop rotation. He didn't necessarily want the fame and the glory. And I think that that tension, that would be an interesting story and an interesting movie. Yeah. One of my favorite stories of Washington, and there are a lot, but the one that sticks in my memory is when he changed the signposts to his house so people would get lost if they were trying to get to Mount Vernon.

I'd forgotten that. Because he was so sick and tired of people just turning up. Exactly. so sick and tired of people just turning up exactly and and and especially turn up and he would have to you know they they'd be lodging there he'd have to feed them you know you'd get sick of that yeah yeah he always seems like um because i have a memory of what when he like before he was put in charge of the army that's what he really wanted where he you know he had his own uniform yeah he made his medals, that sort of thing. He wanted that glory. I'm not entirely convinced that that last part...

Oh, no, you're right. Sorry, I just forgot. And then he sort of did all that, had the glory, and just got a bit sick of it and thought, oh, this isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore. Exactly. And that's one of those fascinating stories you know you know be careful what you wish for you you got the glory and now you can't go to dinner by

yourself you've got to feed 20 people right and then we get to the other end of silver screen when i was compiling uh this list uh if you're listening i've just put a little uh table of the top and the bottom of the list so we can read them. And I was putting this together, and we've got, I'll just read out the names, Arthur, Van Buren, Hayes, Tyler, Fillmore, and Polk. And as I was doing it, I was thinking to myself, I'm struggling to remember the life story of Polk and Fillmore,

but then I realised that's the point. That's why they're there in this round because they just were not that interesting lives. Not everyone can have an interesting life where you start a world war and then go on to lead a revolution

and Polk certainly didn't do that. Nope. But, I don't know, have we been unfair on these people? Do you think maybe they are more film worthy? I think that Arthur and Van Buren are probably a little more interesting. But you do get to Polk, and that's the thing. Polk was a workaholic. I mean, how are you going to fill up two hours with him scribbling notes and writing letters and having meetings.

It just are presiding over the house when he was speaker. There's just not that draw to him. And I think in terms of his life, Polk is more known for his achievements, you know, what he was able to achieve in four years. And the fact that he was able to come in with a clear agenda and accomplish everything. But in terms of his life, it's not really that interesting of a story. No, I think we're fair here. No one's rushing off to watch the Polk film. No, no. In cinemas this summer.

Okay, right. Well, we've got one more round to talk about. Yeah. And it says silver screen in my notes, but it shouldn't. It shouldn't be. Okay, so, I mean, it's difficult to say what this is, this round. I mean, we could argue that it is us judging the artistic merits

of the oral portraits. But it's also us just deciding how hot they are, slash do they have a beard? So, I mean, take your pick, really. It's just how we're feeling. What's the feel we get when we

look at those pictures? The most subjective round, as there is no facts in this at all. No. In joint fifth place, we've got Garfield and Hayes. They score highly, and let's be honest here, because they've got beards. Oh, of course, yeah, yeah. They've got impressive beards. I think I prefer Hayes'. I think Hayes has a nicer, longer beard.

Joint in second place, we've got Fillmore, Taylor and Lincoln Lincoln's got that funny little beard thing chin beard, chin strap Lincoln's portrait is just so iconic oh yeah and that pose is in two different paintings and as for Taylor

and Fillmore I can't really remember why we scored those ones so highly. Because also, do they look presidential? Does it match their story as well? Maybe they're just the air that looks like Taylor. Taylor, if you remember, had his military. And there was a Mexican city in the background, probably on fire, if I'm remembering correctly. Burning children in the background. Something like fire. If I'm remembering correctly. Burning children in the background.

Something like that. It's Fillmore's. I just can't really remember why we liked Fillmore's painting that much. No, I don't know. No. I don't know. If it's the one that I'm thinking of,

I think it does have a good amount of color and he does look very presidential in it. But it's interesting to note with taylor and fillmore no beards no no beards and they've managed to get quite high there they have but then we've got the number one place i mean it's it goes without saying yeah uh you can't have sideburns that impressive and not score highly in this round oh yeah because chester arthur comes number one. Which I don't know,

might surprise some people. Because we're definitely in the large and hairy phase of American presidents. And usually they're not rated as high up in the good looking presidents. What is it? Not the golden age, what's this called? The gilded age. The gilded age. Will that be why?

Yeah. Well yes, exactly. Quite literally the fat cats. Yeah, this called? The Gilded Age. The Gilded Age. Will that be why? Yeah. Well, yes, exactly. Quite literally the fat cats. Yeah, that's what's going on there. I know. Were we too kind on Arthur and his chops? I don't think so. Because Arthur, even though this is the bearded Gilded Age, Arthur is very distinctive. He has this distinctive look about him. And so I think

that he is deserving of this. And honestly, this will probably be the only category that he'll ever rank highly in. He does have that distinctive look that I think really stands out. So I'll say this for Arthur. I really enjoyed researching him. He is one of my favorite presidents to look into. He was, in many ways, awful. But in a way, you've kind of got to grudgingly respect

someone who's just going to sit in front of the press at a party and openly brag about cheating the election. Yeah. It's like, oh, wow, that's really bad. But yeah, no, he just went ahead and did it. People we didn't like the look of.

Number 19 is Adams. It just wasn't a good portrait. I can't even remember it. It's just, he looks slightly sad. Oh, no, I do remember it. He looks shocked. Yeah. It's dull. Yeah. I think we thought it was a copy of the first as Oh, no, I do remember it. He's the second one, wasn't he? He looks shocked. It's dull. Yeah. I think we thought it was a copy of the first as well,

like no originality in there. No, it was quite different from the first. Oh, was it? Yeah. I can't remember. That was a brave attempt, though. I tried. Yeah, no, you remember Washington's got the whole Roman thing going on.

Oh, yes. Yeah, the Adams one is him just sort of like looking, and it's just black, if I'm remembering that correctly, then we got Johnson. There was nothing special about his. I hate to say Harrison's down here because again, I know this pains you, but he just wasn't a strong look.

It looked like a gust of wind in a three hour speech would knock him over. Well, and the sad thing about so many of these presidential portraits it's just you know head and shoulders in front of a you know black or plain background and it it there's not really anything special about some of these these official portraits and especially like with harrison he has better portraits but that was that was how his official portrait ended up and and that's how you got to rank him yeah you gotta go with the official do you think he was disappointed by it did you think like oh i can imagine like 200 years people rating this and just being really

you know me not scoring well well luckily by the time scoring well. Luckily, by the time... I say luckily. By the time the portrait was painted, he wasn't really worrying about much of anything. Oh, that's good. Yeah, silver lining. Fair enough. That's probably his last thought was, I don't need to worry just in case

there's a bad portrait of him, which is judged in 150 odd years' time. I will not know it. Yeah, exactly. But of course the very worst one I did see this portrait again recently and it made me laugh.

It's Buchanan's which honestly looks half finished. It really does look like someone when you know what, I can't be bothered. He was awful. I don't want to paint a picture of this man get the paint roller out yeah it's just uh i think it maybe it's just aged badly uh but uh we've got some interesting ones coming up though see i'm not going to ruin anything for jamie because i certainly don't have the pictures here uh but i i know of a couple coming up that i

really like do you have you got any that you know of that you think will score highly? I'm thinking that TR is probably going to score pretty high. If it's the portrait that I'm thinking of, it's very distinctive. The one where he's grabbing hold of the banister? Yes. Oh, that's the topless one, isn't it? I'm not wearing it for you, Jamie. I'm not, but this is a

teddy so possibly but it really gets at his character and it it it's how he would like to be portrayed so i i think that one will score very high yeah i agree that one, I think JFK is going to score highly in this round. Oh, yes. And I will be interested to see how Jamie takes to Obama's. Yeah, I remember Obama's. That's more modernistic, isn't it? It's very different. Not quite impressionist, but very different.

Yeah, it's a very different style. See, I'll like that. Yeah, well, I'll get there at some point. So, total scores then here we go um let's do the bottom first who are the worst least interesting if you have to choose someone not to look into who would you skip kind of presidents well coming at out of 22 so far yeah coming in at 18 is cleveland at 19 fillmore 20. 20 is Buchanan. 21, Tyler. And 22 is Andrew Johnson.

Yeah. Buchanan, Tyler and Johnson all scoring negative points. Yeah. We're saying that the United States genuinely would have been better off had they not existed. I look at that list and I go, I would not want to have a beer with any of them. So I'm happy they're down there. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah, and in terms of how rankings typically end up, that's pretty much where all of them do end up.

So I think that's a fair assessment. Good, good. Right, okay. Who's really good, though? Who did we take to? Well, number 10 is Van Buren. Yeah. I did like Van Buren. Yeah.

I liked all the fact that he was in the background. I liked the fact that in my head, he created the Democrat Party, and everyone in the world seems to think it was Jackson. It's like, no, no, it's Van Buren. He's working away in the background. And that was the most seems to think it was Jackson. It's like, no, no, it's Van Buren. He's working away in the background. And that was the most fascinating thing about him. He was, yeah, like you said, background worker.

Yeah, yeah. Behind the scenes, making deals, conversationalist. Yeah, no, I liked it. I liked his story. Number nine, we've got Adams. He's in the top ten. There you go. I don't think we've been too harsh to Adams.

I know a lot of people like Adams, but well, and, and having done the series on Adams, I think that he really doesn't get enough credit. And especially in terms of his presidency with Van Buren. If you, if you look at his presidency alone,

it's really not great. And you can see why he usually ends up somewhere in the middle of the pack. With Adams, I think that he needs a little more credit. You know, at the time there was the push for war with France, and Adams said, that's ridiculous. You know, we're not in any position to be able to do that. We need to try and pursue diplomacy, you know, not give away the farm, but at the same time, go ahead and try and see what we can do in terms of finding an amicable diplomatic solution. And he was opposed, he had to face down his own cabinet. Also, just giving him a little credit,

he came after George Washington. That's not going to be an easy place for anybody to be. And I think that he approached the office in a way that is very admirable. So would you have given him an American? Because Van Buren and Adams are the only two in the top ten who don't get an American. Do you think we were too harsh there?

I probably would have given him an American was it Adams that co-wrote or partly wrote the Bill of Rights to the Constitution or something he actually wrote it didn't he? no that was Madison Madison

and then you've got Jefferson Declaration of Independence Madison who's number 5th? oh yeah they're in there don't worry Madison ah yes and then you've got Jefferson Declaration of Independence Madison who's number 5th oh yeah they're in there don't worry they're in there yeah so

Van Buren by the way is on 17.25 Adams is on 19 then in number 8 Hayes on 19.75 oh then

I think he just scores highly because we like him so much yeah number 7 is Jefferson 23.5 i still struggle with jefferson he was a very important person to the founding of america i agree with

that but i just didn't ever take to him i didn't like him uh yeah and especially in the last 30 40 years historians have struggled with jefferson because there is so much that's to be as kind as I can be. It's not honorable. It's, you know, you look at his views about race, you look at the way that he remained a slave owner, even though he said that, you know, this, this is abhorrent, but he never, he never put himself in a position to be able to divest himself of that and, and to be able to set up the people that he enslaved to be free. able to set up the people that he enslaved to be free. Also, you look at his relations with his family, you look at his relations with women, and there's so much not to like. But at the same time, he is this pivotal figure in American history. He was, in many ways, the dreamer of America.

was in many ways the dreamer of America. He wasn't always realistic about what he felt could be the future, but he also had big dreams, and he did feel, at least for white men, that everybody should have a say in the government, that everybody should be involved in our government. And that carries forward and has been expanded so far. And that's a legacy also to remember of Jefferson, besides just the bad stuff,

that he did inspire things that even to this day are the best of America. In that way, he reminds me of Jackson a lot because he was an important figure, but important doesn't necessarily mean good. Absolutely. Right, then we get quite a jump from the seventh place to sixth place

because the score goes from 23.5 all the way up to 31.5 one row um and in fact we get the two together who often lump together monroe and madison monroe and sixth and then madison and fifth well and and here's kind of where you get to um like you were saying with van buren and the democratic party really the the jeffersonians would not have been what they became if not for Madison and Monroe. They were, in many ways, acting behind the scenes and doing some of the work that Jefferson wouldn't. You know, it was Madison that was, well, and Monroe, too, who were writing the articles, defending their policies, attacking the Federalists. You know, they really provided that base of support

that helped to propel Jefferson to what he became. Okay, number four, Grant. I'll admit, I think this is a bit too high in retrospect. I think, and I think this is the only president where I, since doing it, I've gone, I'm not sure I did that right. Well you've got the book whose points from Silver Screen. Well yeah, that's it

because Grant was winning the Civil War and literally out there fighting the fights I think I got too wrapped up in that in his episodes and not enough on his presidency. I think I would be harsher now

knowing more about the Gilded Age and the fact that Grant's administration essentially ushered in the Gilded Age. I think I might be a bit harsher on him in his statesmanship, which if I double check, 14, yeah, you see, I think I would not score him quite as

high now. But, like you say, he got most of his score in Silver Screen. And it is a fascinating story. Yeah, he's definitely getting a high Silver Screen score. And I think that that's... With Grant, so many people think of Grant the General. They think of Grant as the guy who won the Civil War. And his presidency really doesn't get that much attention. And in terms of his presidency,

it wasn't necessarily that he didn't approach the presidency well. It was that he brought on people who were completely untrustworthy and were doing everything they could to benefit themselves, to exploit the system. But that has to play into your thoughts on him and on his presidency. Why did he choose these corrupt people and put them in power and in some cases defend them? You know, that has to draw him down a bit. Now, there were some good people in his administration, and one of the more admirable things about his administration is that the Justice Department, the Attorney General,

pursued the Ku Klux Klan, because this was the point where the Ku Klux Klan was really starting to gain prominence and gain power and they did work to prosecute those individuals and try and quell some of that but again

this is where the Gilded Age really gets kicked off. You've got these people in prominent positions who are just abusing the system. And Grant does have to be held to account for that. And I think in some ways in his lifetime, he was held to account for that. The fact that he sought the third term and was denied it. Yeah, if I was just drawing this list from scratch i think i'd knock him down a peg or two right well um let's move on to our top three three we've already talked about a bit before so we probably don't need to dwell on these too much but in third

place john quincy adams which i think might surprise some people. I don't think many people would think of John Quincy Adams as being so high. But then we get the obvious two. It's just a question of which order these two would have been in, I think. Although, I mean, looking at the scores, John Quincy Adams on 35.25. Washington's not that far ahead on 37. No, he's only... He's not, like, running away with it. 1.75 away.

Yeah, so we've got Washington in second place, and then Lincoln in a... of a pleasingly round 40 points. That's beautiful. Yeah. So I'm happy with Lincoln being on number one. Lincoln is not as perfect as some people make him out to be, but there is a lot good about Lincoln,

so I'm happy with him being number one at the moment. Yeah, I mean, he had a good story. He had the pressure of the Civil War which is you know I think if any half decent president would have been around at the time would probably get a very similar score I do like the stories about him just

poring over maps deciding to learn exactly how this war thing should happen and then he just kept sending out orders and then being completely ignored and just getting so frustrated by it uh yeah no i liked that yeah i mean if you're going to choose between washington and lincoln then in in this very vague not who's best but just who is more interesting who would you go for absolutely i think that lincoln deserves to be at that top spot if for nothing

else you you get the stories of lincoln popping in at you know the telegraph office and starting to tell one of his tales yeah and you get a little more sense of he has a complex personality. He's got so much on his shoulders, but he's still kind to people and still, still talking with people, still trying to establish that personal connection that you just, you don't get from Washington. Washington wanted to be left alone. You know,

Lincoln's got that charisma that I was expecting. Exactly. I was expecting the charisma in Lincoln and I found it. What I wasn't expecting was the, the depression and the mental health issues. That was very interesting. But that just makes him even more interesting to learn about. Absolutely.

Stories as well. I think his stories weren't necessarily boring people just got fed up of hearing stories when they were meant to be planning the war that's what i mean it's like we're a bit busy sir yeah and and have you seen the uh the wincoln movie that came out a few years back yes yes yeah although not since uh doing the podcast so uh i'd be fascinated to watch it now because i'd actually know who people were exactly and exactly where they'd come from you've got this one point where lincoln starts to go into one of his stories and i believe it's edwin stanton who is just like oh no not another story and runs out. Yeah.

Right, okay, so we're halfway. Lincoln's top, Washington's second, John Quincy Adams third. Do you think those top three are going to change? I'm thinking John Quincy Adams will probably go further down. It'll be interesting to see if Washington stays second. I'm imagining that Lincoln will probably stay first. Who do you think might take Washington's space? I think I know who you're thinking, but go on. There are a few possible contenders. McKinley?

Probably not. I was compared to him by one of our listeners, so that's why I was hoping. That's going to be an interesting two two episodes to listen to um yeah great we'll look forward to that when when you look at um historical rankings you typically see up towards the top um fdr is usually up there um jfk is usually pretty high um i'll be interested to see what you think of truman um tr is usually towards the top yeah that that's the one i was thinking of um i'm seeing silver score screens going well for him. Oh, yes. Right. Okay, well, we will see.

Okay, so that's our look. Look back on how we're doing. So now we're just going to take some questions. You guys have sent in loads of questions. I sent on Twitter and Facebook any questions for us, and we've got loads. Far too many to go through all of them, probably. At random, we'll pick some questions. We're going to start with morgan mccreary

of all the things thus far is that a definite way that morgan speaks i'm doing accent for each question how's that that is but different region of america there's only one region in America, surely. Southern. That's all we can do. That's right. That's right, damn. I think I'll do regions of Britain. Of all the ones thus far, which one would you each... No. This is harder than it looks, isn't it?

Yeah, this is why I stumble all the time. Of all the ones thus far, which one would each of you actually enjoy sitting down and talking to? I'm going to say... Do you know what? I'd love a chat with Van Buren. Yeah, Van Buren would be interesting. It's like, is this what you intended? Do you like Jackson? Is he a means to an end? Do you regret this? And drink? What magic do you know? Yes, you regret this and drink what magic do you know yes yeah because that might be interesting um i would sit down i've got to know whether hayes is actually a sociopath i i want to know what he was actually like inquiring minds want to know yeah there's that sociopathic question isn't there you? You can ask somebody. What, is it, your child has just died,

do you think it was a splendid trip? Yes, yes. Because if the answer's yes, then something's not quite right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I don't know, I think maybe Hayes. Garfield, maybe? Just ask him if he needs

any help. A band-aid. Do we need to poke your hole no one's inserted a finger in it for at least half an hour so yeah i don't know jerry what who are you talking to if you're going back in time well you can probably guess harrison well yeah yeah no i can guess but besides harrison Harrison. Well, yeah, yeah, no, I can guess. But besides Harrison, I'd have to say John Adams would be interesting just to see, you know, was he really as curmudgeonly as he sometimes comes across as? Yeah.

And, you know, you get like Jefferson was known as a conversationalist. And Lincoln, just to hear him go into one of his little stories would be fascinating. Yeah. Okay, then. Right. Thank you, Morgan, for your question. We've got Josh Heller next. I was thinking we'd just take in terms to read the questions, but I am now fascinated to hear these different accents. So, go on.

Jamie. Which president reminds you the most of Rob? Rob. Does Jamie seem similar to any of them? I see Rob as John Adams. Jamie is more of McKinley so far. I love the fact that to most Americans that would just be a Game of Thrones accent.

Of course, yeah. Yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah, it's really weird that the Northern accent is now like internationally recognised. As like a good accent instead of just what people say up North. Right,

okay. I didn't actually take any of that in, I was too busy. I've got to read the question again. So you're someone who sees more of a John Adams type. Oh, I try not to be offended by that. Especially since the word curmudgeon was just used. Sorry about that. You see, I'd like to think that I'm more of a...

I've got an idea. Go on then, who do you think? Do you know, I see more of a John Quincy Adams. Really? No, no, yeah, you're quite eloquent with words, you're quite well spoken. I'm still trying to read Paradise Last. Yes, yeah. You're very logical, very methodical with your thinking. So I'd put you

as that. Plus I've just seen this series. Fair enough. I'm going to choose for you Arthur. Arthur. Chester Arthur. Yes. I can't help but feel if you ever found

yourself as president, it was to be in no way because you tried to be. Wake up one morning in the White House bedroom like, how the hell did I get here? Yeah, I can't help but feel that would be why you became president. Yeah, probably. One hell of a night drinking. Yeah, and let's face it, you'd enjoy the chops.

Oh, I would, yeah. Oh, how about... See, Jerry's quite knowledgeable jerry is very knowledgeable he's american that helps he's american so he really fits with most step number one step number one do you see yourself as a particular president honestly out out of this group the one that i probably see myself the most as is haze. Um, just because I, I try to not, not the, not the potential sociopath, but, um, because I do try and take a more positive approach to things. I'm not, you know, completely rose colored glasses, but I do try and look at the bright side of things, and even in bad times, just try and keep going. Also, I would think if I would become president,

I'd try and, like Hayes, try and act honorably and try and do my best to serve the nation. Oh, that's nice. That's nicer than being Arthur. Yeah, I think so. Or John Adams. Well, we've not done McKinley yet. So I know very little about him,

apart from his love of the old tariff. He does love a good tariff. He does. Would you say Jamie's McKinley? I don't see that. It would be interesting to hear Why he thought McKinley Well we're doing him in the Two presidents time

So it won't be long before we find out Well no no no screw that Josh why am I like McKinley And what things I don't know anything about him It's not surprising So write a postcard Right okay next question

Yeah I think we need to do question seven Because this has been Okay. Write a postcard. Right, okay. Next question. Yeah, I think we need to do question seven. Because this has been very much researched by Rob. I have. I know the answer to question seven. Kevin W. Luby. I apologise for butchering your name. You're thinking of an accent, aren't you? Oh, I really am.

You've done the two you can do You're right there What is the square root of minus nine? Kevin the Scottish pirate Yeah Glaswegian pirate Well Kevin I'm glad you asked

Because as we all know A square number is any number multiplied by itself. Yeah? We happy with that? So a square root is the reverse. So, for example, 2 times 2 equals 4. The square root, therefore, of 4 is 2. Are we all happy? Yes. Okay. I agree with that. However, if you multiply any two numbers, including negative numbers, you always end up with a positive answer. So it is impossible

to get a real number for an answer to the square root of a minus number. However, there's more. I drank him however. You can use imaginary numbers, notated with an i usually. So, if we say that the square root of minus 1 is equal to i, then the square root of minus 9 would of course be 3i. Oh, that is beautiful. Fantastic.

Thank you, Kevin. Thank you for your question. And I hope you've enjoyed the answer. Rilling. Presidential history at its best. I think it's very important. Right, I'm going to go for oh, this doesn't have a number because I've done it

wrong. 8.5, a question by Brian McAlpine. Yes. You might, whilst you're doing your accent, either censor part of it or do such a heavy accent you can't actually understand one of you might whilst you're doing your accent either censor part of it or do such a heavy accent

you can't actually understand one of those words I'll do Battlestar Galactica okay that means nothing to me okay so Brian number 8.5 says play Frack Marry Kill

with Johnson, Buchanan and Tyler good one yeah the controversial mining technique Play Frack, Marry, Kill with Johnson, Buchanan and Tyler. Good one. Yeah, yeah. The controversial mining technique. Yes. Pressurise those rocks with fluid. Right, so I need to marry Johnson, Buchanan or Tyler,

kill Johnson, Buchanan or Tyler or go mining with him. Yeah. Right. Okay. I think we can do this. Who wants to start? I don't want to start. If I had to,

I'd probably marry Tyler. He has got a massive gun. But maybe that will come into use if you're doing some mining with them. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, marry Tyler. Go on. I'm going to say kill Johnson.

Yeah, I'm killing Johnson. Johnson is dead. Yeah, Johnson's gone. Buchanan, you know what? I'm marrying Buchanan because he was an awful president, but he did like a party occasionally and had a very fine silk handkerchief collection. That's something to talk about on long winter evenings.

I'm not sure that I would want Tyler to hang out. So, you know, let's go ahead and go mining and that's it. Are we all agreeing then? So, Johnson's dead, Buchanan we're marrying, and Tyler's down the mineshaft. I'm willing to make that sacrifice, yes.

Okay, great. Do you want to choose a question next, Jerry? Yes. Let's see. Jerry yes let's see how about let's go with number 11 question by Max Condrat Max Condrat

how's your Welsh what is your favourite no not even close Edinburgh what is your favourite quote from Hayes' diary that you weren't able to fit into his episodes?

This is an easy one to answer There are no favourite quotes from Hayes' diaries that I did not fit into the episodes Every time I found one, I put one in I did not read all of his diaries from cover to cover. I just did not have time to do that in the time frame that I put the research together. So what I would do is I'd find out an event had happened, such as the death of a child, find out when it happened, and then look up the diary entry. Just on the off chance, he'd said something ridiculous.

and then look up the diary entry. Just on the off chance, he'd said something ridiculous. And it was at least, I'd say, 60%, 70% of the time, I found a really good quote every time I dived into that diary. When I have more time, I am definitely reading his diaries cover to cover because they were great. But yeah, it's just brilliant. If you've not just had a dive in, just pick a random

day and just read it and see what's going on. It's great. And it's just online for free. Just type it into Google and there you go. Yeah, so unfortunately no new stories. No. Which is a shame. Go on, Rob, what number do you want? It's quite a long one. Do you want to read all of that question out in a weird accent yeah i've got the accent this one for the whole thing yeah okay so uh question three uh harley burton hi guys loving the show so far was wondering what was the most surprising thing pleasant or otherwise you've learned from all this. Mine is probably just how racist everyone was back then.

Even a lot of the anti-slavery folks. I know, different time, obviously, but damn! Okay. Yeah, this is a question similar to Will Ternan's question, who mentioned they found the sheer scale of corruption being quite surprising as well. Most surprising thing? I think for me it's how normal slavery was for people.

Like, even people in the North, they knew it happened and probably weren't happy with it morally, but it was almost accepted as it's a thing. It was part of the economy. It kept the country going and it was just very almost brushed under the carpet for something that was so

barbaric. Because we all know slavery happened, it's just I didn't realise how bad it was. Yeah. So going back to how racist everyone was back then, especially the anti-slavery folks, I think I understand that

you kind of get the feeling if you haven't looked into it in much detail, you assume the anti-slavery people were also anti-racist, and that just really wasn't the case. A lot of people were anti-slavery because they didn't want to be priced out of the job market,

which isn't something I'd really thought about before, although I wouldn't say it surprised me because it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. But what I will say is this idea of everyone being racist back then, there was a lot of racism back then, but I'd argue there's a lot of racism today. Oh, yeah. And there were a lot of people back then who were not racist.

I think it's slightly dangerous to say that we should be judging it on the morality of the time. Well, whose morality? There were a lot of people who were in America who were not racist. A lot of black people, for example, who did not think that they should be slaves. So should we really be judging the morality of the day based on a few rich white people? I'm not convinced it would be a bit like someone judging my morality based on Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Well, and to your point, Rob, part of the

thing that we have to keep in mind when we're studying history is who is writing the history. Because there are so many people, especially in those times, whose voices are lost, who didn't know how to read or write, who weren't able to have things published or whose writings haven't survived to this time. So we have to be cognizant of that and careful about painting a broad picture of, well, everybody was racist. Well, A, we have instances where, no, there were people who, by our definition of racist, were not. But then we have so many people that we just, we don't know. We have to assume based on what information we have in the present day. This links to Mark Greger, who said perhaps we'd been too harsh on some of our judgments on the presidents because we were looking at it through a modern lens. And the presidents were racist by today's standards, but back then they weren't. I personally don't think we've been too harsh here.

And this is something I've thought about a lot. And it's tricky to do, especially in what's meant to be a fun, light-hearted historical podcast. But I think it's important that you do stop and think about this. And let's take Jefferson, for example. Jefferson's views were common, but they weren't the only views at the time it wasn't everyone writing actual books about how certain races were inferior to others and at the same time you've got the likes of Lafayette who was physically going around the world

trying to free slaves both of them aristocratic white men both of them very different opinions so who's to say which one was the morality of the time Both of them aristocratic white men. Both of them very different opinions. So who's to say which one was the morality of the time? So I personally don't think we've been too harsh on the presidents from the early times. I don't know, Jerry, what are your thoughts? Well, especially, and I think that the example of Jefferson is an important one,

and it's one that historians have been grappling with for a long time. has this different view about certain men, about certain people, that just it's hard for us to grasp how could these two ideas, this great concept of equality, but then this idea of racism exists in the same mind. And to your point, we have people today that still have some of these same ideas. This hasn't gone away. But what has happened is an expansion of a general idea of humanity, of a general idea of humanity, of society coming together and starting to ask some of the tough questions. Because with Jefferson and his generation, there were so many of the leaders who just said, okay, we realize slavery is an issue. We're just not going to deal with it because we can't figure it out. I think you see in history, the people who stand out as people that we can admire, as people that we can find ourselves drawn towards are the people who say,

you know, I've realized that this is a monumental challenge. Lincoln. Yeah. And he does it anyway. He's like, this is my responsibility. I'm not going to just, he could easily have said, well, okay, we're two nations now. And he said, no, no, we're going to become, we are one nation. We just need to get back there. We need to figure out a new union. And that was the bigger ask. That was the challenge. But he took it up versus people like Jefferson who just didn't. And so I think that you're very fair in criticizing leaders for not accepting a challenge that they knew was a challenge. They knew this was a problem. Even as early as Washington, you see people talking about, well, the nation's probably going to split apart.

Oh, slavery is a bad thing. We need to deal with it. And in that time time they didn't the nation fell apart it took a long time it took many decades it took another generation but the nation fell apart because they didn't take on the challenge yeah Yeah. And that is why Lincoln stands out. It was hard. Yeah. But he did it. I think if you run the risk, if you go too far down the line of you shouldn't judge people in the past by today's standards,

you're almost infantilizing the past. They didn't know any better. How could they possibly have understood? Absolutely. No, these were very intelligent people who did know what was going on. Absolutely. And to Jamie's point from earlier, that is one thing that we also have to be aware of, that slavery, it wasn't just, oh, well, I'm just going to free my slaves now. I'm just going to free the people that I'm enslaving. It was, there was economics wrapped up in it. There were legalities. There was an entire institution of slavery that permeated through the entire culture.

that permeate it through the entire culture. And I think that that's, it is a very surprising thing for some individuals from the modern day to look back on and really try and grasp just how much of an institution this was. this was. And then it comes to, you understand, the monumental task to take down that institution, to dismantle it. But it happened. You know, there were vestiges of it that still last to this day. And racism being one of the key parts of that, we still have, we're still grappling with issues of racial inequity, of social injustice, but we don't have, we've been able to start dismantling some of that system, we've been able to start dismantling some of that system but it's still a big challenge and and we do need to recognize that but not discount people who realized that this was a problem and just ignored it yeah that was a that was a deep question that was yeah i think we should uh

that's brought the mood down i think we should continue with the very serious questions and go for 24. Oh, yeah. Very serious. Tony Thieker. If Grover Cleveland left the White House at 12.15, travelling at 15 miles per hour, and Chester A. Arthur left Congress Building at 1pm, travelling at 20 miles an hour,

at what time would they pass each other? Rob, have you thought about this question at all? Well, don't worry, Tony. I've thought about this question. Oh, good. No problem, Tony. The answer is 1pm. What?

The answer is 1pm. There you go. Do you want more detail? No, that'll do. Thank you. Does Tony want more detail? Well, yes, do, thank you. Does Tony want more detail? Well, yes, actually, I could do that. I can see you've written quite a lot wrong. Well, I'm glad you've asked Tony.

Because the most direct route from the Congress building to the White House is Pennsylvania Avenue, according to Google Maps, the quickest way to walk is 1.8 miles, although this does take you through private roads. But I figure Cleveland and Arthur will have access to those private roads, what with them being the president. So, this

walk usually takes about 30 to 40 minutes. However, that's walking at the average speed of around 3 miles an hour. Now, according to you, Tony, Cleveland is really pushing it today because he's going 15 miles an hour. He's building up a sweat, isn't he?

He is quite impressive. I don't know if he's meant to be in a carriage, but he's going on the footpaths in my journey. I think he's running. So he is legging it. There is clearly an emergency going on in the Congress building. Tie coming loose. A mustache blowing in the wind.

So, because he is going so fast, it is only going to take him seven minutes and 12 seconds to get to the Congress building. He will arrive at precisely 12, 22, and 12 seconds. Now, as the question does not stipulate what Cleveland is going to do at the Congress building, I'm assuming the emergency was something to do with the doors collapsing. Because when he gets to the building, he stops at the door to check the frame using his frame checker that he's got. He was well known for that.

He was quite detailed. Yeah, exactly. He was. It was the minutiae with him, wasn't it? Frame checker Arthur was his nickname. Well, now we get to Arthur. We're talking about Cleveland. Good old frame checker Cleveland. Well, Arthur's also now coming down because we also know Arthur. He likes a doorframe or two. And when he leaves the Congress building

at precisely one o'clock, he will walk directly past Cleveland checking the doorframe at 1pm. So there you go. Tony, I hope that you like the answer. Oh, Jamie, don't question the maths. No, no, no.

Jamie is looking confused. Because it says Chester Arthur left the Congress building and went for travelling at 20 miles an hour. Yeah, yeah, he was going really, really fast. But Cleveland's 15. He didn't stop to say hello. Okay. Fair enough. He just bolted out of the door. really quick he didn't stop to say hello okay fair enough he just bolted out of the door

fair enough obviously Cleveland's already at the entrance Cleveland was to the side checking the door frame yeah okay got that all I can say is I am really really pleased that Tony didn't take

the time to make sure that one of them wouldn't already arrive at the other building because otherwise this would have been a nightmare to solve. And the first of Estabri. Yeah. Right. How are we doing for time? Probably two or three more questions.

Oh. Got it. Suspense. Okay. Go on. Okay. Suspense. Number 19. Number 19. This is John from Twitter. Oh.

Have you tried a New York accent? No. Can you do a New York accent? Oh, I can try, but it's not going to work. Can you do a Louisiana accent? Because we've got one of them on the line. That's Southern, isn't it? Oh!

Oh! Oh, I'm just getting offending. I think that ship has sailed a long time. Who has the best... No. Who has the best facial hair among the presidents so far? Is that...

No, that's not Louisiana. That's the same as the last accent. That's my American accent. Who wears the best feet? No, same one. Who has the best... No. British and posh.

That wasn't meant to be Louisiana, was it? I don't know. I don't know what it is. Throw in a little Phil Diddy. Phil Diddy. Who has the best facial hair among the presidents so far? Cancel the presidency score and be damned. No, same accent as before.

Peaky Blinders. That's become big in America, hasn't it? Do you know what I'm saying when I say Peaky Blinders. That's become big in America, hasn't it? Do you know what I'm saying when I say Peaky Blinders? Blandon. Yes. You do. Yeah, so Peaky Blinders is big enough that it's hit America. That's a Birmingham accent.

Oh, Birmingham? Yeah. Nice. For me. Yeah, all right. Who has the best facial hair among the presidents so far? Can this ability score be damned? I only ask this because they both seem to give

extra weight to the solid beard and moustache going back to Roman times. That's a little more Liverpudlian. Yeah, I was thinking that because I live in Birmingham and no one speaks like that. We're doing the Beatles instead. Fair enough. The old Liverpool slash Birmingham accent.

Twist and shout. Again, I have no idea what you just said. I'm going to read the question myself. Right, facial hair. Right, okay. Who's got the best beard moustache combo? Right. We've got some... We've got hard data for this. Yeah, I actually printed

off some pictures. I've come prepared for this one. Ooh. So, facial hair. I mean, it all begins with Lincoln. And then, I mean, Johnson. What was the point in him? He didn't bother. But then we've got Grant with his neat beard. And then Hayes. Oh, Hayes is just an impressively big beard. Grant is nice and chunky. Do you know who we're missing? Van Buren. Look at his chops. Oh yeah, I suppose so. That's a good point.

Even Quincy Adams actually Yeah yeah I wouldn't sniff at them They'd get angry No Van Buren's Sideburns are hugely impressive They are They're just spiky

They're fantastic I still can't go over Pierce Looking at that photograph Do you not remember I still can't go over Pierce. Looking at that photograph, woof. Do you not remember a young Hayes? Young Hayes is definitely the hottest president so far. He looks like Stephen Mangan. He really does.

Oh, you know what? I think... No, because these are photos, not their presidential portraits. I know, but this is more accurate, isn't it? Yeah. I was going to say, why did Van Buren not score higher? Because this is a photo of him, and he looks insane in this photo. Hay, isn't it? Yeah. I was going to say, why did Van Buren not score higher? Because, ah, that's because this is a photo of him and he looks insane in this photo.

Hayes has got a badass beard. Right, facial hair. I am going for... I'm going for Van Buren's sideburns. Wow. Yeah. Curve. No, not even in the bearded area.

Area? Era is what I meant to say there. Do you know, I think I'm going for Hayes. Hayes. I've forgotten how good his beard was. It is a good beard. You could put a bird nest in there. You could.

And he would find it splendid. Yes, it would be a jolly day for Hayes if he ended up with a bird's nest. They would sing with him in the forest as he walked, skipped, skipped through the forest. They'd be tweeting on his show. Oh, whistle while you work. The band that he commanded in the army were behind them oh yeah oh let's see i'm trying to think this is a tough choice um because arthur also has the the distinctive sideburns but in terms of a beard i would have to say haze oh yes it's a good beard it is a good beard i suppose if you're being strict with normal facial hair if i'm choosing

beard it's going to be haze's beard but the sideburns i've forgotten how amazing they were you could put glass for those. Quick one. Question 21. From Chris Haywood. Was Dr. Doctor a Jeffianus as I suspect? If you don't listen to our Roman series, that will make no sense. Or if you didn't understand what James just said. Or is it a Jeffianus? Was Dr. Doctor a Jeffianus as I suspect? The answer's simple, yes.

Yes, he was. He was. If you don't know what we're talking about, listen to our Roman series. But yes, he was definitely a Jeffianus. Let's go for a more serious one. So this is Ibn Babushka. Cockney. Cockney.

You're right. What role did the last Seven presidents play In seizing native land Waging the Indian wars Did the army or Thomas Or Tom I'm from London

Don't know that word Did the army do it on their own Pursue that Or was there a top down plan Long term project That happened mostly in this period, with federal direction that hadn't been heard of much of it? Sorry to be grim.

What do you think, Jerry? We are such a ridiculous podcast. So, yeah, this is a complex question. And, again, it's one of those things that up until I'd say probably the last 30 or 40 years didn't really get as much attention when talking about presidential history as it's received since. is an awful story. It was definitely, I won't necessarily say a top-down plan, but all parts of the federal government were aware of what was going on and were contributing to the policy towards Native Americans. And so talking about the last seven presidents, so that gets us back from Cleveland back to Lincoln. So during this time, Native Americans, I mean whole nations of Native Americans had been forced to relocate to land reserves. So they didn't have as much land as they had previously.

And just the delineated nature of the reservations was detrimental to their culture. And one thing to note here, because we think of the Trail of Tears as being one of the most well-known examples, but in some instances, there were Native American nations from the West Coast that were relocated further inland. When I was doing a little research to prepare for this question, one of the examples I came up with was the Modoc, who were moved from what's now California to Oklahoma. moved from what's now California to Oklahoma. And this movement of whole nations of people didn't take into account that there are people already in these lands. And so this created conflict because lands were taken from others at the expense of these other people who were already there. And so it created conflicts between Native American nations and peoples that hadn't previously existed.

Plus, on top of that, and especially as we're getting past the Civil War, but even before that, we were still in a period of westward expansion of white settlers. So all these people had been moved from what was seen as the quote-unquote prime lands on the east coast, on the west coast, moved inland. When those lands started filling up or they weren't as affordable, people were moving inland and saying, well, we want this land now. And so, again, you have people being relocated off their land, and the government did very much help to facilitate this. much help to facilitate this. On top of that, you see, and especially after the Civil War,

you see the transcontinental railroads going in. So you now have not only settlers, but you have technology that's encroaching on the ways of life of people who had been there for generations, who were used to having animals migrating across the Great Plains. And now you've got railroads in the way, you've got land being fenced off. You have this disruption in just the natural way of life of those lands. in just the natural way of life of those lands. And in this period, 1865 on, there were different responses to what to do about this encroachment. At this point, there was a movement called the Ghost Dance Movement, which is more of a, it was a religious movement. And it was, some Native Americans turned to movements like this for a sense of peace in the face of such devastation. You know, their entire culture, their communities were being disrupted and they needed

some sense of peace. So they turned to this religious movement in order to find that solace. But you see others that are fighting back. And so we get what is now referred to as the Indian Wars. And even though there were some victories for Native Americans, Native American forces at this, at these times, ultimately it was unsuccessful. And the U.S. government was very much involved with, this wasn't just the army going out and saying, oh, well, let's go and fight these people. They were typically directed to do so by the government in Washington. You also have civilian agencies like the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which was created by our old friend John C. Calhoun during his tenure as Secretary of War under Monroe. The Bureau of Indian Affairs had started, it was more directing trade with Native American nations.

But under Jackson, it became more heavily involved in the removal of Native nations. And then you see this emphasis on assimilation. You know, we don't necessarily want to destroy you, but you've got to be more like us. You've got to adapt our culture, our ways of being. And that is just as disruptive in terms of culture and society as this physical disruption, as a military intervention. As a military intervention. And so it's a very, it was very much a part of the government at the time. And really, you don't see in terms of the political parties at the time, you don't see much. People kind of felt that this was okay. They had different approaches to it, like with Clay versus Jackson. Jackson was very much for removal, but Clay, he didn't really want removal, but he was okay with assimilation. And so again, it's one of those complicated issues that, you know, even people who you would think, oh, well, you know, that

they don't want to kill this, these, this entire groups, these entire groups of people, but they, they really weren't what we would think of nowadays as being more progressive or, or or more diverse and inclusionary. It's an area that I'm very aware we have glossed over in recent times. Yeah. Because unfortunately, the way we are doing biographical stories of presidents, it's something that is very hard to neatly fit into our style episodes, which

did really bug me for a while until I came to peace with it, because in my head I now have several episodes lined up of other biographies that we can cover in the future when we have finished the presidents, where I'm hoping we can cover some non-presidents and we can see the other side of some things that are going on. So, yeah, so if you're listening and you're hoping for more of just what is happening with the Native Americans and what happened, we are definitely planning to do something at some point. Because, like you said, Jerry, it's a huge story of American history that is often underlooked. Well, and for so long, it was not really talked about when talking about presidencies. There may be a brief mention here or there.

like a brief mention here or there. But post-1812, you see the frontier moving ever farther west. And so it was one of those things that was happening out there. And it wasn't really in the day-to-day conversations in Washington. There weren't really debates over it. And so it is easy in terms of where the attentions of the people of the time, the leaders of the time were, they weren't really on that, but it was this massive tragedy in history that was happening at the same time as all these other events. It's just, it's a matter of perspective.

Okay, let's go for a couple more then to finish off. 16? Yeah, yeah, number 16. Might be self-validating. This is Northlandsman, but I'll just point out Jason McDonald had a similar question. There were a couple of people asking this question. 50. How do you prevent burnout as teachers and

podcasters? What does Jamie actually do other than songs? Obviously accents. Accents. Yeah. Moral support. Moral support is all we're asked for. You can do it, Rob. Thank you, Jamie. Jerryents. Yeah. Moral support. Moral support. You can do it, Rob. Thank you, Jamie. Jerry, well done.

That was a stellar performance today. Thank you. There you go. See? Lots of things. How do I prevent burnout as a teacher? It helps I only work four days a week. There's no way we could do weekly releases if I did five days a week teaching.

I'm a real teacher. I do five days a week. Yeah. Well, some of us have podcast stuff to do. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I don't know. This would not be possible without Jamie.

It wouldn't. It would be me talking to myself. It would be very boring. You know when people buy a puppy because they're lonely? It's a bit like that. Probably got someone to talk to on a dark, cold winter night.

Exactly. And tell Roman and American facts too. It would be a very lonely life if I couldn't come round to Jamie's once a week and just say history at him. So, yeah. lonely life if I couldn't come round to Jamie's once a week and just say history at him so yeah but as for the burnout I drink I

good answer the Roman series we are now 130 emperors in and I still get to a new emperor, pick up the book, start reading about them, and I just want to know what's going to happen next, because we've reached a period in Roman history where I know very little about it at all. We started off in a place where I knew, but we soon got past that. So I'm learning at the same time, and that keeps me going.

I must admit, the American one is harder to do, significantly harder to do, because there's a lot more to research. A lot of what you're researching is just quite depressing a lot of the time that makes you just want to go, I just want some funny stories to tell. But no, everyone's just trying to kill people because they look different to them. Yeah, but saying that, I'm still keeping going because, again, it's that moving story onwards. What's going to happen next? And I very much decided, let's do an American series after Trump got elected. And I wanted to know, how did America get here? Well, let's start at the beginning.

So I'm looking forward to catching up, which the Roman one won't, because that will just end at some point, whereas this one, we're going to get to the modern times and either go, wow, where did that come from? Or, oh no, I now understand exactly why we're here. It now makes sense so yeah it's just getting to the end there

is what I'm looking forward to doing Jerry how about you? I mean running a podcast do you ever get that kind of ugh? Well what I will say about your podcast is the detail is insane and it's sometimes I end up in a rabbit hole and I have to get out of it.

You seem to live in the rabbit hole with the rabbits. Pretty much. Yeah. It's so comprehensive. Do you ever just go, no, I need to move on now? Or do you just love getting all of the, all of the details in? Well, and it's interesting and kind of getting to starting with the broader scope. I've had numerous folks that have approached me and asked about podcasting. They were interested

in possibly starting a podcast. And one of the things that I advise, make sure that it's something that you're really interested in. If it's going to be something that's ongoing, where it's going to be a lengthy series, make sure that it's something that you're really passionate about and you're interested in, because otherwise you will get to that point, well, I really don't want to do this. It's taken up a lot of my time. I don't really, I don't know if people are listening because there are so many, there are so many diversions that people can take and take you away from the work of podcasting. So I think you really do have to have that passion

or you just have to say, I just want to do a six episode series or I just want to do something quick. But if you're if you're going to go for a longer series, you have to be in it for the long haul. And so for me, the delving into the details for me is what draws me to it and keeps me coming back to it. Being able to get to some of those details that really make people, people and taking this from not just being the story about, you know, this larger than life figure that everybody knows,

but knows little about let's bring it down to, well, what were they like as a person? Who were the people that were important to them? Who didn't they like? well what were they like as a person who were the people that were important to them who didn't they like why didn't they like them what happened um getting to those details that's what keeps me going and has kept me going for now over three years and i i don't see an end in sight yeah it is it is that one of the hardest things i find is uh having to go right that's really important but we do not have time to cover that so if we don't have time to cover that i might as well not mention this or this as well, even though I know they're important. And I feel like every episode, what I discuss with Jamie is probably about 10, 15%

of what I've researched. And then what's edited of that, usually it's down to about 10%. But it's so that narrative can keep going forward. So that's what we as a podcast have decided to do. What I really enjoy about your podcast is it doesn't have to move forward at that speed. So you do get that much better sense of what's going on. Exactly.

And even with that, I still have some points where I realize I'm getting too much into, you know, what's going on in Spain, what's going on in French history at this time. I do have to draw myself back in certain instances and say, okay, well, this is what we really need to know for the American presidency at that time. And so I can't go down every rabbit hole, but I try and make sure that the ones that I go down are really key or tell something that people may not know otherwise right I think I think we'll end on a very serious question the last one question eight Christopher Fitch do you have one more accent in you? Oh. Let me just cross my legs for this one.

Accents. I don't have that many accents. I'll just do the same one again and again. You can do the same. Ah, g'day. It's your Ostrogoth accent. Yeah. Struth, which story made you cringe more than Pierce's Saddle Story or Garfield and his Pro Bangs? That's Australian.

Don't know where that went. North Australian. Very unique. Central. Central Australia. Yeah. Alice Springs. You don't often hear the accent.

You don't. Okay, so we've got Pierce's saddle story. So just to remind listeners if they've forgotten. He was thrown forward in his saddle and... Things came loose. Yeah. Certain things connected with the pommel. And no one wants certain things to connect with the pommel.

Yeah. A bit of grinding. It was so hard that it actually knocked him unconscious. And he fell off his horse. Well, you would, wouldn't you? You really would. So there's that.

Then, obviously, Garfield. I don't think we need to go into Garfield. I think all listeners will remember that episode for a very long time. Holes and fingers. In fact, when asking what your favourite moments were, the top two were either garfield and his probing yeah or lincoln's turkeys interesting um however i think you've missed one here yeah i was

actually about to say i think there's one that needs to be in this mix yeah go on then. Polk. Oh yes. Was that the operation he had? Oh yes. Oh yes. That came flooding back. That was sort of lift them out of the way whilst I go in. Here's your brandy. Here's your brandy and a bible. I would say,

who would I rather be out of those three? I'd rather be Pierce. I don't want to be Pierce, but out of those three, I'd rather be Pierce. At least he was knocked out. Exactly. And he survived to tell the tale

and he had children as well yeah that was a sad story oh god yeah yeah but for just cringing yeah Polk's made me cringe the most I don't think I cringed much with

Garfield because I spent two solid weeks of my life just reading about this awful experience he went through. I think I just became desensitised to it. I think hearing it as well, it was a shock of the, not incompetence of the doctors, that'd be unfair

because that was their knowledge. Yeah. But the difference in, obviously, medical... The fact that Cleveland had his jaw replaced, like, a few years later on a yacht. Yes. They didn't blink an eye. It's like, yeah, we'll whip that out, put a new one in, no problem. On a boat, sure, why not?

If it broke there, it'd be fine. It's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. What about you you jerry who would you be i i i'm with you i i would definitely opt for pierce but in terms of cringing the polk story it it's still i i can't think of polk without thinking of that story now. Yeah, yeah. It's not good. It's that pained expression in his presidential painting, isn't it? It's like a shocked expression. You can see it in the eyes. It's deep in the eyes, but you can see it.

It never went away. But with Garfield, I'm kind of like you, Rob. I know the story well enough now but even and i was trying to think of whenever i first heard about that it's it just seems awful but it just doesn't seem as cringeworthy as as polk or even pierce and i know it shouldn't be funny but there are elements to that story that just are funny. Maybe that just makes me a bad person. His doctor was called Doctor Doctor.

The whole thing just does seem like a farce. Yeah, exactly. It was. It became farcical. It must have been awful to live through for everyone concerned. But through time, it has just become ridiculous. And the fact that it lasted so long. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Medicine had got to the point where they could prolong his suffering for as long as possible. Yeah. Just imagining me is better. Thanks, guys. Nice knowing you. what oozing oh nasty that's it they kept doing it as well didn't they let's poke it some more let's get rid of it it

just kept going without spoilers are there any other cringe worthy stories that you know of without spoiling them should we prepare prepare for any? Oh, gosh. I don't... Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling anything along those lines. There are a few instances that I'm going to be interested to see, and especially Jamie's reaction to them

is going to be good to hear. But I think in terms of C cringeworthy i can't think of anything off the top of my head okay right we have no more time for questions thank you very much for everyone who sent in questions though uh i did enjoy the questions they were amusing insulting and brilliant so thank you your were insulting. I think that was the insulting part. Oh, highly, highly insulting. I am now very disappointed, though, if your accents weren't spot on.

So please, if we read your question out, give Jamie a rank out of 10 of how close he was to your accent. Yeah. That would be brilliant. And if I was slightly out, tell me how many miles out I was. On the moon. Yeah. Right, right okay jerry thank you very much for

joining us again it is always a pleasure to talk to you and just mind your your mind for knowledge of the president's crack your mind thank you so much for having me um As always, this is great and looking forward to seeing how the next half goes. And like I said, I've already got some stories in mind that I can't wait to hear Jamie's reaction. Brilliant. That sounds good. Would you be willing to join us for the end of the series as well for another summary? Absolutely. Fantastic.

That would be great. Right. Well, let's do a three-way sign-off. Never done one of those before. Yeah. Okay. Don't forget you can download some Podbean iTunes and Stitcher. No.

Don't forget you can download some Podbean and iTunes. Because you never organized Stitcher for the present one. No. Because we don't know what Stitcher is. No, I'm not entirely sure. I have no idea. the present one. No. That's because we don't know what Stitcher is. No, I'm not entirely sure. I have no idea. Never used it.

No. Oh well. You can listen to our Roman episodes on Stitcher though. I don't think you can download the president's hair.

You say it because I'm forgetting how to speak. I don't know what you're saying. Jerry's podcast. Oh, you're just pointing at the microphone. That's where Jerry is.

Okay, me. podcast oh you're just pointing at the microphone that's where jerry is okay me sorry jerry promote your own podcast and i hope you'll check out the presidencies podcast uh which is available anywhere fine podcasts can be found um i'm also available on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Okay, then. Until next time, then, all that needs to be said is goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. tragedy in history that was happening at the same time as all these other events it's just it's a matter of perspective are you still there can Can you hear us?

Hello? No, I think he has gone. Joey! Joey, come back, Joey! We've lost you. How long were you speaking until you realized we weren't there? I think it was about a minute or so. Fair enough.