American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 27.2 William Taft

Episode Date: June 27, 2020

It's not easy to follow a president like Teddy Roosevelt. It's even harder when that Teddy Roosevelt decides that perhaps you are no longer up to the job. Taft was going to find this hard even with his friend's help, now it's unlikely he will survive. 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Leo Taft. Part 2. Hello and welcome to American President Total's Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is episode 27.2. It's William Taft. Part 2. The Taftmeister. The Taftmeister. And do you know what? No one commented at all about taffy. Not a single comment. Oh, you're absolutely right. No one did.

No. No. I'm not going to say that I feel let down, dear listener, but I also did actually look it up so I could tell you now if you want. No. No. I want someone to tell us. Okay. I want a nice British translated answer with using words that I can understand.

Not like, it tastes like a 7-Eleven. Not that kind of thing. I wonder what a 7-Eleven tastes like. Let us know. Anyway, right. Are you ready for TAF Part 2? Yes. Let's do this then. Do you want to start us off? Go simple. Go classic. White. That's very

simple. I think I can do white. Start with a white screen. I know what I'm going to do. We're going a bit different. Start with a white screen. Oh no, I know what I'm gonna do. We're going a bit different. It's just white screen, and then you see these words flash by the screen. As the words are flashing by, you hear someone say, in a very echoey voice, I am the seventh son of a seventh daughter, and I have clairvoyant powers. And the writing's doing all the crazy stuff like it's turning corners and stuff

and it's like 3D so it's like you're zooming in and out the words but they kind of flash up as you hear the voice. Like a screensaver. You know the one with the clock that moves around the screen. I was hoping for a little bit more fancy than that but you know what? This is a low budget podcast Rob. Let's roll with that. Let you know what this is a low budget podcast let's roll with

that let's just say this is a windows 97 screensaver with the uh yeah it's just the words oh is it like just the words going from left to right on a white screen or is it the 3d metallic words that bouncing yeah 3d dodgy metallic okay Okay. Very cheap looking. We'll go with that. And then more words come up. There is something hanging over Taff's head. I cannot make out what it is. At one time, it looks like the presidency. But then again, it looks like the Chief Justice ship. And then, right, we're rolling with the Windows 97 theme.

Pan out, you realise you are just staring at a computer from 1997. And then it rotates. And it's you! There's you typing the episode. Oh, yeah, we're going meta. We're doing that. Oh, no. Yeah.

And then, without even looking at the camera, I just hold up a piece of paper that has the words Scrawled William Taft Part 2 on. And then there without even looking at the camera, I just hold up a piece of paper that has the word scrawled William Taft Part 2 on. And then there you go. Smashed to black. Oh, that's odd. It's odd.

It's low budget. One day, when this podcast is popular enough that someone with skills far surpassing mine actually goes out and makes the introductions for all these films. Oh, that'd be brilliant. This one will stand out and will be judged for all these films. Oh, that'd be brilliant. This one will stand out and will be judged.

There you go. Right, there you go. That's the opening. Did it entice you? It certainly sounds like he's speaking to, like, an omen person, maybe. Yeah. Like Roman time. Yeah.

You know, oh, in your future it's got this sort of thing. Who do you think was speaking? Some charlatan. Okay, let's find out. Right, we left William Taft returning back to the United States. He'd just been offered the job of the War Secretary, a job that he accepted because that meant he could still keep an eye on the Philippines. Remember, he didn't feel like his job on the Philippines had been completed.

No. Remember, he didn't feel like his job on the Philippines had been completed. No. He wanted the Philippines to be in a position where they actively wanted to be ruled by the United States, with a vague promise of independence far, far in the future. Yeah. Yeah, that's what he wanted. And he hadn't, for some reason, quite got there yet.

So he wants to keep an eye on it. But you know what? As war secretary, I could still keep an eye on this, he thinks. So? I can start a war. Well, he heads on home. After all, Nellie, his wife, remember, had a dream, and that was to be the First Lady.

Remember, she has always wanted to be in the White House. She's pushing Taft as much as possible to go for jobs that will be a stepping stone for the presidency. And war secretary, it's a good stepping stone. So, discussions between the two of them were had. It was decided this is a good move. So they head back to the United States. Now, as War Secretary, Taft wasn't just in charge of the situation in the Philippines, but also other things the War Department would be looking after.

Want to hazard a guess what the War Department would be looking into? It's either going to be something obvious or it's going to be something ridiculous. Roads. No, no, it's not roads. You're right with both guesses there. The first one, obviously, is the aftermath of the Spanish war and Cuba and what's going on there. That makes sense. But also the development of the panama canal because nothing says a peaceful endeavor to aid trade through the building of the canal than uh giving it to the war department to sort out yeah yeah i suppose they had just engineered a coup over there uh to uh take over the country so it kind of made sense as the War Department. So Taft was busy as the War Secretary.

In 1904, he headed down to Panama to have a look at the progress of the canal. It was progressing. So that's nice. The hole was deeper and longer. Yeah, exactly. Then in 1905, he popped back to the Philippines once more just to see what was going on.

And then he went on to Japan to do some diplomatic work. Then in 1907, he went on a world tour. However, I mean, if you're looking at that date, thinking world tour, you might think maybe there's a couple of places you'd want to avoid. Because things are getting a bit tense in Europe at this time. Yeah, this is height of the scramble for Africa, right? There's not enough room for lots of big boys to be around. There's a lot of posturing going on between Britain, France and Germany.

And it was decided, I know, let's just avoid those countries, shall we? Because we don't want to anger one country by visiting another, so... We'll just avoid Europe, generally. Let's do that. Fair enough. So, instead, he decides he's going to visit Russia. Never been to Russia. Russia's meant to be lovely, so...

Let's go and visit the Tsar, he thinks. Because everything's pretty chill there at the moment, I hear. Yeah, yeah, it'll be fine. Yeah. Well, he arrived in Russia. He received a slightly more frosty welcome than he hoped. Well, it is winter. Yeah, exactly.

He met with the Russian foreign minister, and apparently the first thing the Russian foreign minister asked Taft was how they liked things in the East now that the United States had helped the Japanese beat the Russians in the recent war, which was a bit awkward. Oh, that war? Yeah.

Yeah, Taft began his work at attempting to mend some bridges with the Russians, trying to say things like, oh, well, we were merely mediating. We didn't take sides. No. No. Yes, yes, no, I was in Japan a couple of years ago yes but no i mean i wanted to come here um this no this is not a kimono no this is uh yeah so it's a little bit frosty but it's fine he's gonna mend the bridges with the russians uh build those ties uh i mean

you want to get the tsar of r on the side. I mean, they've been around forever and will be continuing for, I mean, who knows how long. I mean, you want the Tsars on your side. It'd just be good. It's a good investment for the future. Exactly. So he decides to go and visit the Tsar, or rather it was decided, but there was a slight problem because on the cold December evening, when his carriage rolled in front of the mansion in St. Petersburg, where he was due to meet the Tsar of Russia, he climbed out of the carriage to a horrendous sound. Did he fart?

No, but you're in the right sort of region. Oh, no. Did his trousers rip or something? Oh, that's exactly what happened. As he was stepping out of the coach There was a stomach churning Ripping sound And he realised he had just torn himself Out of his trousers Or his pants if you're American

Not great, not what you want to do when you're about to meet the Tsar Not the best look No But it's fine because Nellie acted quickly. She's with her husband at the time, and she was able to borrow a needle and a thread from a lady-in-waiting nearby. Apparently people just happened to have needles and threads on them

back in those days. Well, you never know. The couple managed to find a secluded spot. I couldn't quite figure out where. Maybe they hopped back in the carriage. Maybe they went behind a bush. Who knows? But after a very hasty

little sewing session, Taff's trousers were roughly fixed. It's not perfect. I just feel sorry for the palace guards. They've just seen Taff and his wife dash off and hide behind a bush that's shaking with Taff saying, faster, quicker, quicker, quicker!

I can't get it in! I mean, I'm not going to say that happened because I don't know it did, but I mean, it happened. Definitely. Alicia wasn't trying to say it on the way. He met the Tsar. They're both walking. She's behind, like, quickly trying to...

Oh, that's even better. Let's say that happened. Okay. History. Yay. However they manage it, Taff's trousers are fixed but weak, and Taff was very worried that they were about to go again.

Any sudden movements, he figures he's about to tear his trousers once more. This is where the head of the palace guard just says, are you going to do the time-honoured tradition of bowing before the Tsar? Well... Just bow at your waist, straight to bend your legs, sir. Nice 90 degrees, that's what we like in Russia. Yeah, it was a little bit awkward

because Taff spent the entire evening, apparently, walking crab-like around rooms, trying to keep his back to the walls, just in case. When he did meet the Tsar, he was forced to walk in a shuffling motion without too much movement

and then when he left the Tsar's presence he sort of shuffled backwards so he wouldn't show the obvious repair in his trousers oh that is that is splendid yeah um so an embarrassing evening great for podcasting oh yeah I mean this is what I meant by uh last episode where it got quite depressing So, an embarrassing evening. Great for podcasting. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is what I meant by last episode where it got quite depressing.

It's like, there is one funny Taft story, but it's in episode two. So, here we go. Here it is. Yeah. He ripped his trousers. We've all been there. Well, I mean, I've not, but I imagine many people have. I have.

Oh, you have? Oh, did you rip your trousers? Unfortunate. On the gusset area as well. But luckily, they were multi-layered. There was a layer beneath, so nothing was seen. You have multi-layered trousers? Is it for

that very reason? Yeah, it is now, yeah. So it wouldn't have been so bad, but it was at school. Oh, no. Yeah. Kids can be cool as well. They wouldn't just been so bad, but it was at school. Oh, no. Yeah. Kids can be cruel as well. I mean, they wouldn't just let that go. No. No. Right, well, since we're talking about him bursting out of his trousers,

perhaps now is a better time than ever to bring up what Taft is mostly known for, which is his size. Yeah. As we covered, Taft was a large man. I mean, he was a large baby, and he grew to be a large adult as well. What is not often talked about, though, is actually his weight fluctuated a lot during his lifetime. Really?

I mean, this led to many comments and jokes at his expense during his lifetime, and that led to a legacy of stories about his size. But actually, almost all of them just aren't true. By far, the most prevalent story about Taft is that he got stuck in his bathtub once and it needed four people to get him out of it. This story's just made up completely. It's gotta be.

Well, yeah, I mean, it just is. It didn't happen. There was no record of it happening whatsoever. It's so much so that I wouldn't even bring it up, very much like I didn't bother talking about a cherry tree with Washington, because it just, I mean, it's just not true, so I talk about it. Although, interestingly,

we did get a complaint by one listener. It's one of the very few negative reviews that we've got for this podcast, and it was the fact that we didn't even mention the cherry tree, which amused me. Anyway, for that reason, I thought maybe I should mention the bathtub story, just in case people were wondering why I'm not talking about it.

Well, it's because it didn't happen. So there you go. But what is true is that he did struggle with his size throughout his life. He worried about his health quite often. And for large periods throughout his life. He worried about his health quite often and for large periods of his life he went on strict diets involving eating gluten-free biscuits. Was that a thing?

Yeah, yeah, it was about then. Wow. Yeah, they were called gluten biscuits, apparently, confusingly, because they were gluten-free, which I think is just bad advertising. But yeah, he'd have these gluten-free biscuits, lean steak, fish, chicken,

and as much salad as he could eat when he was on his strict diets. And when he was on these strict diets, he did lose a significant amount of weight. Well, he said he did the Atkins diet. He went low carb. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it didn't matter where he was

in his cycle of losing and gaining weight. The cartoonists at the time, and cartoons were very popular at the time, just got stuck on the image of him being really quite large and balloon-like. So the public image was always of him being massive, and the jokes always continued regardless of what he really looked like. So there you go. That's a bit on his size. It's a shame as well because obviously concerned

about his health but probably equally concerned about the way he looks like low self-esteem that would you know quite easily possibly but he did make many jokes himself about his size whether that was just to cover up the uh yeah the sadness inside uh or maybe he wasn't actually that bothered about it it's hard to tell with such a distance of time. But all we need to know for now, in this part of our story, whilst he was war secretary, he was in the high diet phase, and he was losing quite a lot of weight. And he was just getting on with his job as war secretary. But, I mean, he was doing it, he was getting the job done, but his heart wasn't really in the job. Because as we know, there was one job he really wanted. Secretary of State?

No. No, Chief Justice. Yeah, there we go. The Supreme Court. That's what he wanted to do. He wanted to be on the Supreme Court. And it was in 1906 that his opportunity finally arrived. Because a seat opened up.

And he had been promised that seat by his good friend, Roosevelt. However, one thing stood in his way. What's it going to be? Somebody else? Yes, there's somebody else. I'm impressed. This somebody else was obviously his wife, Nellie. She was so close to achieving her dream now.

She's going to be first lady. She had seen her husband rise through the party. He's now War Secretary. He is a close personal friend to a very popular President. He was starting to be seen, as many in the Republican Party, as a possible successor to Roosevelt. If you go and take the Supreme Court job

now, you'll never be President. So, don't. Now, we don't have the details of the conversation between William and Nellie, but we do know the outcome, because when Taft's son, Charlie, was asked whether his father would accept the Supreme Court seat, he replied, Nope, Ma wants him to be president.

So it looks like Nellie had her way. Then, a few months later, Nellie and William were invited to the White House to go and talk to Roosevelt. Roosevelt, as per usual, his bombastic dramatic self, sat in a chair in the library in front of Taft and Nellie and closed his eyes dramatically. And then spoke in a low, melodramatic voice. Oh, for goodness sake. And now this is where we get the star. Yeah. I'll quote it again.

Apparently he said, I am the seventh son of the seventh daughter, and I have clairvoyant powers. There's something hanging over his head. I cannot make out what it is. At one time it looks like the presidency, and then again the chief justiceship. Apparently William and Nellie both replied at the same time, it looks like the presidency, and then again, the chief justiceship. Apparently, William and Nellie both replied at the same time.

Make it the presidency, said Nellie. Make it the justiceship, said William. But it was decided that it would be the presidency. After this point, Roosevelt came out to publicly announce that he supported the idea of Taft coming after him as president. After that, the nomination was a foregone conclusion. Roosevelt was popular. His faction was strong in the Republican Party at the time. Yeah.

So once he put his support behind Taft, all Taft had to do was not mess up and he'd be nominated. Taft did make one mistake in the campaign though, because he was asked about the economic crash of 1907. He was asked what he would do if he was president for those struggling to feed themselves. Taft answered, God knows. Well, we've lived through times that presidents have said worse, haven't we? Actually, I mean, this is unfortunately really unfair to Taft, because that's what became well known. that was what was put in the paper that was the response that went down in history but actually it was taken out of context because his full answer was god knows they have my deepest sympathy it's an awful case when a man who was willing to work is put in this position

so actually he was quite supportive but he just came across as if he didn't care and he was being flippant. Well, it's the traitorous mainstream media. Oh, you see. The enemies of the people, it's what they do. You see, it all goes back. It does. Yeah. Anyway, the convention came around. Taft won the nomination with ease. This didn't damage him too much. He got over 70% of the vote in the first round. That was enough. He is now a nominee to go into the presidential election. Easy. Now, the presidential election would be slightly tougher than getting the nomination, however, because the Democrats, for a third time, were going with Brian. I thought you mentioned Brian before. Oh, I've mentioned Brian a few times. Remember, Brian is the very, very charismatic speaker

who has essentially taken over the Democratic Party, pulling the party far to the left, trying to make it a genuine left-wing party, whereas before they simply weren't. They were a party for the planter class. Now Brian was trying to make it into a party for the working class. Brian's already tried a couple of times and failed. But he was up against Roosevelt.

Now, up against Taft. Maybe he's got a chance, he's thinking. In fact, he was hoping that the panic of 1907 would actually help out his chances. It was proof that this hyper-capitalist society that they lived in and had been built up over the last few decades was just inherently bad for the average person. Yeah, these massive companies are making huge amounts of money, but the average Joe on the street is actually starting to starve. We need to do something about this.

Brian wanted to do things that were seen as really quite radical at the time, and let's face it, in America still today. He wanted to do things like take the railways away from the obviously corrupt businessmen and hand them to the government. So he wanted to nationalise the railway. Right. He also

wanted better protections for strikers, make it more legal for certain strikes to take place. He wanted to remove the high tariffs. He wanted to end corporations donating to political campaigns secretly, because that was obviously going to lead to corruption. And he also wanted senators to be elected directly by the people and not through state assemblies. In nowadays, he'd be called a hard left socialist, if you think of those things in America.

Well, yes and no, because quite a few of these things happened and now are just considered the norm. No, but if they weren't now, though, then he suggested those things, hard left socialist. Well, that at the time was also what he was being accused of. Oh, yeah, of course. He was seen as very radical by many. And just like before,

there were many in the Democrat Party who hated him and felt like he was destroying the party. Still, many of these policies, understandably, were very popular because many of these policies were solely designed to help people and not make corporations rich.

So the Democrats really started to think maybe they had a chance this time. However, the Republicans and Taft countered with a very solid political maneuver. They simply took most of the popular ideas of Bryan and then proposed watered-down versions of them. So Taft came out and said things like the railroads indeed needed more regulation, the tariffs definitely need revising. The Philippines must one day be independent. Brian wanted independence for the Philippines, by the way.

Campaign contributions definitely need looking at. Now, if you're not paying too much attention, that sounds like he's saying exactly the same as Brian. But there's a world of difference between we should lower the tariffs and the tariffs need looking at. Yeah, it's kicking the can down the road. Yeah, exactly. Nothing was as solid as Brian's

popular ideas, but this was enough to blunt Brian's proposals in the minds of many. Aren't they talking about the same things, these political parties? Politicians are all the same, aren't they? Doesn't matter who we vote for. That feeling started to spread, even though the parties had very different messages. And also, once again, the money was definitely behind the Republicans.

Taft was seen as a popular president's successor. And despite the fact that Brian's idea has been popular with many, Taft was just seen as a safer option. Vote for Taft, you get more of Roosevelt, was the idea. And Roosevelt was popular. Because Roosevelt's ending on a high so it makes sense really. In the end Taft got 51%

of the popular vote to Brian's 43. Even more decisive in the Electoral College. That's 321 votes to Brian's 162. So there you go. Taft had won. He is now the 27th president.

His inauguration came along. The weather was so bad that his speech was delivered inside the Senate chambers. It was just too cold to go outside. Too snowy. Taft had a very long inaugural speech written. However, at some point

it was decided that perhaps it would be better if he read only part of his speech and then published the whole thing in the newspapers so people could read it at their leisure, which was seen as a sensible idea. Yeah. His son, however, didn't quite trust his father

and feared that maybe his father would actually go ahead and read the whole damn thing. So his son had sneaked a copy of Treasure Island into the Senate chambers with him to read during the speech just because he was afraid. But in the end, it's fine.

He didn't need to read the book because Taft did go for the shorter version and the speech went down reasonably well. Roosevelt bounded up to Taft afterwards and exclaimed Bully's speech, old man! And then probably punched him in the shoulder. It's the kind of thing I imagine

Roosevelt doing. Yeah, a lot of injured people whenever he leaves a room. He's a very physical person. So there you go. The Tafts then headed to the White House. Nellie had finally achieved her dream. She felt no sense of disappointment whatsoever now she had reached

it. There was none of that oh, I've made it now, what do I do? No, she was loving it. I'll quote her, I felt as Cinderella must have felt when her mice footman bowed her into her coach and four and behaved just as they had conducted her to a court ball every night of her life.

Quite literally felt like a princess. Yeah. So that's nice, isn't it? Yeah. It's a dream come true. Yeah, Nelly is cock-a-hoop as they say. Taft, however, soon started causing some ripples of uncertainty

within the party. He had stated many times during his campaigning that he was going to be a continuation of Roosevelt, even suggesting that he would use the same cabinet. However, once he was elected, he decided maybe this isn't a good idea, so he started to appoint his own men to most of the top jobs, almost all of them corporate lawyers that he knew and trusted. This caused a little bit of uncertainty in the party. What's he up to here? But it's fine. It's OK. It does make sense.

New president, new cabinet. I'm sure it's fine. Yeah, he hasn't gone rogue, thank goodness. Well, Roosevelt himself, however, was perhaps starting to have doubts. Apparently he told journalists right at the start of Taft's presidency, off the record, that Taft, I quote, means well, he'll do his best, but he is weak. Which is not the best endorsement from the person who's literally endorsing you.

No. No. Taft, however, sought to reassure his friend by writing to Roosevelt, I fear the public will feel as if I have fallen away from your ideals but you know me better and will understand that I am working away at the same old plan so don't worry I've got you, I've got this

it's fine. So, Taft began his presidency dealing with you've guessed it, are you ready for this? Tariffs? Oh yes yes, of course. Of course, it's tariffs. Oh, good old, I love a good old tariff. I know you love a good old tariff. I love a tariff.

Everyone loves tariffs, don't they? Just out of interest, how long does this section last in the podcast? Oh, very, very short. I'm not doing it. I refuse to do it. Okay, listen, skip ahead two minutes. Well, doing my research, there were chapters on this. Oh, no.

Because it's important. But as with fishing rights, important does not mean the same as interesting. So if you're listening and you really want more details on all the tariff debate that's going on at this time, look it up. The information's there. Yeah, Google. Yeah, yeah. It's riveting stuff. I will give you a summary, though, because we do

need to vaguely know what's going on, but I force myself to keep it under 150 words. Okay, so skip ahead two minutes now. Well, we saw how McKinley just hiked up the tariffs ridiculously high, only then to pull back because the United States had become a global competitor. So now maybe why not open up trade to the world a little bit more? However, the Republican Party had not all got behind McKinley and then Roosevelt's views on tariffs. And actually, the party is starting to split in three different ways. The three-way split were three factions.

The first faction wanted to reduce the tariffs a lot. Not as much as the Democrats, but still, we need to reduce the tariffs a lot not as much as the democrats but still we need to reduce the tariffs and we want to open up trade more um then you got the middle faction or the moderate faction they wanted to reduce the tariffs a bit not too much just a little bit we're about right and then you got the third faction who wanted to just keep hiking the tariffs up just keep protecting US industry, go, go, go. Taft was in the middle group. He was a moderate in this and had, as mentioned, campaigned telling people that he would revise the tariff situation. So Taft announced that he would do just that. He said he'd do it in his campaign. That's what he's going to tackle first.

One of the leading hike Cup, the tariff faction members, pointed out that, well, actually, Mr. President, you campaigned on revising the tariff situation. That doesn't mean necessarily getting lower. You could still raise them and still not have been a liar.

But Taft refused to consider this. This was obviously disingenuous. So soon enough, there was a bill that was introduced lowering a lot of tariffs, but raising some. Trying to keep as many people happy as possible. So there you go. That's 150 words on tariffs. Yeah, that is...

You don't need much detail, in my opinion. That's all you need to know. There's some rumblings about tariffs. Taft is trying to halt the middle line of the party. Okay. Welcome back. You've just skipped ahead. I'm pretty sure I've passed that like three times during that.

I mean, here's the difference between ancient history and modern history. A lot more boring. Ancient history is all about like coups and plots and battles modern history just seems to be economics yeah and it's only going to get worse yeah it is anyway uh whilst taft is dealing with those tariffs leave him over there talking about tariffs to someone we can go and talk about something more interesting that's going on. Because the Oval Office is being built. Oh, is this the one on the ground

floor? Yeah. Well, as we saw in Roosevelt's episode, he extended the mansion and he popped on a wing on the west side of the building and called it the West Wing. And then moved all the official offices into that wing. So that's where

all the work got done. I posted a video onto our Twitter and basically it's like a virtual tour of the White House. So it shows you an image of the room and it's Michelle Obama and Barack Obama talking about the history of the room and why it's important. It's really good. The trouble is

I was watching it whilst washing up and the angle of the picture looked really weird. It's like, why is it showing me like the corner of a room that's so stupid until i clicked on my phone and it's like a 3d image thing and you were just pointing into the bottom corner of a room somewhere yeah nice it's interesting it's a really interesting thing about the history of where certain things are signed. Yeah, yeah. No, the White House is a fascinating building. It is. The West Wing that Roosevelt built was never intended to be a permanent structure.

It was a case of just whack something up for now whilst we decide what to do properly about where we actually put the offices. I like that. A bit like prefab buildings. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Coventry post-war is what I'm imagining. Dodgy concrete.

That will do for now, and then we'll build something better in a bit. So when Roosevelt left the presidency, there was this West Wing that was a bit naff, but the plan had been all along to do something a bit better. So by the time Taft was in there, it was decided, actually, the West Wing is a good place. Let's keep it exactly where it is, but let's actually build a permanent structure. So that's what they did.

So the West Wing was built up and it was extended with a new office for the president. Now, you mentioned in Roosevelt's episode that you always pictured the Oval Office as that round, sticky out bit on the front of the main building, which I think is fair to say what most people have thought at some point

until they were told otherwise, because it's a reasonable thing to assume. Yeah. After that last episode, that's when I had luck and... Oh yeah. I mean, there is a reason why lots of people think this. The room you're thinking of, the sticky out bit at the front, is actually

known as the Yellow Oval Room. It's been used for various things since the White House was built. A reception room, Phil Moles turned it into a library, several presidents used it for their office. So, I mean, there was an Oval Room, or there is an Oval Room, in the White House that was sometimes used as the presidential office, but not always. Well, when they were designing this new West Wing, they wanted it to look like the rest of the building. They wanted it to be in keeping with the rest of the architecture. So it was decided an oval sticky out bit was what they needed. There was one on the main building, let's put one on the

wing as well. And actually, let's make this oval room that we're building the president's official office So that's what they did. The oval office was built It's in the middle of the south wall of the new West Wing. Now that is not the same oval office as we have today We will see at some point it gets destroyed But that said it is almost identical in size and shape as the current Oval Office. So you can quite easily just imagine what this room looks like. Imagine the current Oval Office,

but imagine it at the bottom of a pond because it wasn't flooded or anything. It's just the walls were a dark, muddy green. The floor was dark wood with a dark green rug on it. It was very green, very sort of pondy. I'm sure it looked nice at the time, but there you go. Yeah, it doesn't look good now. It looks very 70s now, but I'm sure it was good.

Good at the time. I'm sure Taft loved it. So there you go. From now on, you can now picture the president beavering away in the Oval Office, which is nice. So Taft is enjoying his new office. He's debating his tariffs, something that I'm sure he was finding very exciting, when something awful happened because Nellie had been living her dream. She was overseeing the changes in the White House,

she was performing the duties of the First Lady and generally having a whale of a time. Then, when out on the presidential yacht one day, she suddenly suffered a stroke. She lost control of her right arm and her leg and lost the power of speech. This was a serious stroke. Taft took this badly to begin with, understandably. It was

not pleasant seeing your wife going through such a thing and it really knocked him for a while. But apparently he rallied and then spent the next year, whilst being president, whenever he could also helping nurse his wife back to health. It was a slow, painful process, apparently, but Nellie did start to recover. According to one employee at their summer house at the time, Taft would always be full of laughter and patience, attempting to ease Nellie's frustrations, teaching her how to speak again.

So, yeah, that's a shame. Nellie spent her whole life dreaming to be First Lady, and she was only there for a few months, and she suffers a stroke. Okay. Yeah. That's just really sad. However, Taft had a job to do,

so after deciding it would be better for Nellie to stay in their summer house rather than in the White House, he found himself alone in the presidential mansion, running the country. Eventually, the tariff bill was agreed upon and signed into law. Just so you know, because there might be some people still thinking, but Rob, I really want more information

on these tariff bills, so. No you don't. Well, maybe there is someone. So just so you know, there were 654 decreases in tariffs, 220 increases, and 1,150 unchanged items. The average duty was now 21.09%, down from 24.03%. So just in case you really wanted to know that, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. They've gone down a bit, but not all of them. there you go. Yeah.

Yeah. They've gone down a bit, but not all of them. Cool. To put more simply, or more importantly to us, the bill was a compromise bill, essentially, with the factions of the party. This was Taft trying to keep everyone happy. But unfortunately, as is the case in politics often, if you try and compromise,

all you end up doing is upsetting everyone. No one seemed particularly happy with this tariff bill, but it kind of passed anyway because no one could think of a better one. Still, onwards and outwards, Taft decided to tour the country. That would be a good idea. He always liked going around the world and seeing new things. He's president now, so let's tour the country. He could defend his tariff bill, he thought.

So he visited Colorado and then Utah and then San Francisco and Los Angeles, all around the country. Good tour. Then off to Texas. It's important he went to Texas because Texas bordered Mexico, and Mexico was having some problems.

Now, it's beyond the scope of this podcast to go into the Mexican Revolution that lasted between 1910 and 1920, so we're not going to. But just so you've got some background, however, all you need to know is that there was a general named Diaz. Diaz had been in charge of Mexico since the late 1870s with one small break where he let his friend have a go.

He'd been president for seven terms at 31 years. Then in 1910, when he was 80 years old, a lot of people in Mexico started to think that maybe it was time for someone new. And perhaps, maybe, I don't know, limited terms would be a good idea. Diaz made some motion that he supported this, but then announced that he would be running for president again in the next election. You just know that election was not going to be a fair and transparent election. So tensions grew between Diaz and possible successors, including his old Secretary of War, a man named Reyes, and a political opponent named Madero. Incidentally, if you are a computer game player, and you have played Red Dead Redemption, the first one, this is the war that features in that game, which I just went, oh yeah, they didn't even change the

names of some people. So that's what's going on in Mexico. A revolution is about to take place, but no one knows it yet. There's an old general in charge, and he's going on in Mexico. A revolution's about to take place, but no one knows it yet. There's an old general in charge and he's refusing to budge. So with this going on in Mexico, Taff decides to go and visit Texas. And then Mexico itself. The southernmost state of the US. Yes. Well, there were many in Mexico going into the United States to buy arms for the obvious upcoming trouble.

And Taff was worried about this. This would cause complications, he figured. And Mexico starting a civil war with US arms, it's not ideal. So he ordered the US forces to start heading down to the border. He didn't want to start a war, and in fact he made it very clear that he believed that only Congress could order them to engage in any fighting, because only Congress can declare war, the president can't. And don't forget Taft was a stickler for the rules and the constitution, so he wasn't going to do anything that was beyond the scope of the constitution. Saying that, however, he felt that should Congress need to declare war at any point in the future, it would just make sense to have the troops in the right area.

So I'll order all our troops to the border. It's up to you guys in Congress to declare war if you feel it's needed. Now, Taft and the US government openly supported Diaz, the Mexican president. They wanted to see the old man continue for as long as possible for the simple reason being that, and I'll quote Taft here, we have two billions of American capital in Mexico that would be greatly endangered if Diaz were to die and his government to go to pieces.

In other words, it will cost us money. Yeah, on the status quo, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So an embattled Diaz and Taft agreed to meet in person. Diaz hoped that this would help put down some unrest as the US was on his side, and Taft hoped that this would make it clear to the invested businesses that he was on their side.

In other words, he wanted to make sure that the likes of J.P. Morgan weren't getting too upset. So the two presidents meet in the fascinating city of El Paso slash Juarez. For those of you who don't know, this is a city that straddles the U.S.-Mexican border. The north side of the city is American El Paso. The southern side is Mexican Juarez. Now, this is a city that sat on the Rio Grande, and then after the Mexican invasion by Polk, and all the land wrangling in the Compromise of 1850, the city found itself with the northern part in a newly defined state of Texas, and the southern part in Mexico. Still, at this time, the city largely worked as one settlement, understandably. I mean, yes, there's a river runs through it, and yes, technically two

different countries, but it's one city and people just moved around and just got on with things. It was a remote city. It was not easy to get to. However, as with all remote Western cities, the invention of the railway had increased the population quite dramatically in recent decades. And by 1909, the city had a reputation of lawlessness. Now, if you've ever been imagining desert scenes and Mexican architecture when you're thinking of your Westerns rather than the likes of Deadwood, this is it. This is the sort of desert-style Western place this is.

Oh, yeah. Ponchos and stuff. Yeah, exactly. It was decided that this would be the perfect place for Taft and Diaz to meet. That way, Diaz could meet Taft in the United States, and then Taft could meet Diaz in Mexico. All they had to do was cross a bridge.

Now, there were some other reasons for meeting in this city. The city was a stronghold for those who opposed Diaz. So Diaz hoped that putting on a big show there would help put down any rebellion. Because if he turns up with a whole bunch of his loyal troops and a whole bunch of American troops, people opposing him would go, we can't win this fight and would give up.

It probably does raise his assassination likelihood. Well, that was the flip side, yes. There's probably a pool going on. Well, there were definitely some worries. It was only eight years since the last assassination of a US president and only 28 years since the one before that. No one was keen to see this become a habit. Was it really safe for the president to go to a

known trouble spot on the verge of revolution, to meet a man who may well be on the verge of a civil war? Is this sensible? No, said many, but enough said, yes, we need to make sure that the powerful businesses in America are not too unhappy with the government. I guess, yeah, it's probably a risk to take, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. That was what Taft saw in us. Plus, he possibly thought, well, there might be a danger, but it's Diaz, it's the guy who's really in danger, surely. Surely I'll be fine.

Anyway, 4,000 troops were set up to create a bodyguard for the president. That was just the US troops. There were also obviously Mexican soldiers as well. And this was the first time that a US president met a Mexican president whilst they were present. Really? So there you go. Yeah, first time it's happened. It's just as well that so much was put into the security detail,

because when the presidents met, there was a commotion a few feet away from their procession. A man was discovered with a palm pistol, literally just a few feet away from Diaz and Taft. He was arrested immediately after being disarmed. However, it is debatable whether this was an assassination attempt on Taft. It was more likely that Diaz was the target. And also, this was a remote city where guns were very, very common. I mean, maybe the guy just had a gun on him. Do you think he just started shouting about his Second Amendment rights?

Probably not. No, it wasn't a thing back then. Seriously, the idea of Second Amendment rights just is not a thing until about the 70s. No one associated it with uh gun ownership it was all about the militia we'll get into that when we reach it um anyway so there you go i mean taft you could argue escaped an assassination attempt um but maybe not we don't really know uh he himself made a joke of it afterwards. If anyone wanted to get me, he couldn't very well have missed such an easy target, he said.

Everyone laughed, and he probably cried a bit on the inside. Incidentally, Taft, once becoming president, had abandoned his strict diet. He was back to eating steak for breakfast, and then pretty much what he wanted from there on. He had gained a significant amount of weight once more, and once more resembled closer the cartoons that were constantly drawn of

him um so there you go he's met the mexican president uh the meeting did what it had set out to do on the united states side certain business owners were now reassured and the markets ticked over the government will stick up for our interests in Mexico. Nice. It was less successful for Diaz because he was overthrown just over a year later, kicking off the Mexican Revolution of 1910 to 1920. But still, we're not doing Mexican presidents totalus rancium. We're doing US presidents totalus rancium,

so we'll just leave that story there. Anyway, back to Taft, because he is about to be drawn into his only major scandal of his presidency. Are you ready for scandal time? I can tell by your tone it's not going to be as amazing as I hope.

Tell you what, give me a bar. How low is your expectations here? Um, a faux power at a dinner is what i'm thinking okay i'll see if i can beat a faux power dinner um i i'm i'm gonna say it now before any hopes are risen whatsoever if the current president did this it would barely hit the news let alone become his downfall um Well, because everything he did, I mean the fact, and this is ridiculous, it is ridiculous, the fact

that he got mocked on TV because he had to pick up a glass with two hands, that's a dodgy thing to target somebody with, I think. I mean, is it as bad as that? Can he pick up a glass with one hand? Oh no, no, it's maybe worse than Glassgate, but...

Let's go into it, shall we? It's complicated. It involves lawyers, conservationists, cabinet positions and backdated memos. Yeah? It's about a tree. Birds in a tree. A backdated tree. Here we go. I'm going to try and explain this to you. It took me a while. Birds in a tree. A backdated tree. Here we go.

I'm going to try and explain this to you. It took me a while to get my head around it. You've got to ask whether it was worth it. But here we go anyway. Because it's about the only scandal that happens. Right. One aspect of Theodore Roosevelt that we didn't really cover at all was his conservationist work.

He was a keen conservationist. That was proven by all the killing of animals. Yeah, exactly. He really, really liked animals. Yeah, he was very worried that in this fast-paced industrialized world, the beauty of the places that he loved to hunt in would be destroyed. Therefore, he used... Perhaps I'm being slightly disingenuous there, but... Yeah, he did do a lot of genuine conservationist work,

which has been praised ever since. It's definitely a plus point of Roosevelt. It's one of the reasons why I was happy to go as high as eight for his statesmanship. Even though we didn't talk about it, it was in the back of my head. So yeah, Roosevelt did a lot of conservationist work. So therefore, he used executive orders to withdraw a lot of land from the public domain in the hopes of preserving it, turning it into national parks. This included an area of land in Alaska.

Now, when coal was found in this land in Alaska, the business who had discovered the coal scrambled to attempt to claim the land back off the government. Right. So Roosevelt said, no, this is now public land. A company went, oh, we've just discovered coal there. We're going to legally challenge you for that. Now, this meant making a claim through the General Land Office, a department of the government being run by a man named Ballinger. So, Ballinger in charge of the land department.

Now, Ballinger approved the claim. Yes, the business has the right to the coal. We will give you this land. Big business. The business, by the way, do you want to guess who actually owns it through several shell corporations? Who owns everything at this point?

Oh, J.P. Yeah, of course it's J.P. Morgan. And a couple of others, to be fair, but yeah. So, I mean, we're talking the major robber barons want this land for their coal, and the head of the land department, Ballinger, said, Yeah, fine, go ahead, have it. However, something seemed a bit fishy about this whole deal, and an agent who worked in the land office, a man named Glarvis,

came out and accused his boss, Ballinger, of a conflict of interest. Essentially, Ballinger's been paid off by the robber barons. He's corrupt. Now, Glarvis was supported at this time by a man named Pinchot. Pinchot was a leading conservationist in the country. He was the head of a new department that had been created called the United States Forest Service. He was a very good friend of Roosevelt.

Together, they wanted to protect the forests of the country. That's nice. Pinchot did not like Ballinger. He thought he was corrupt and wanted to do anything to bring Ballinger down and maybe get someone who will fight against the big corporations in the land office. So to try and simplify that, just in case you got lost,

you've got Ballinger in the pocket of Robert Barron's, giving away land. Yeah. And against him, you've got Glarvis the whistleblower saying, my boss is corrupt and he's been supported by Pinchot, a leading conservationist and good friend of Roosevelt

Are you with me? Yes. Good Now, the accusations of corruption were seen as important enough that the president would have to get involved So Glarvis, the whistleblower was invited to a meeting with Taft with a letter in his pocket from Pinchot supporting his account. Please believe this man, he's telling you the truth.

However, there was a problem. Taft was no fan of Pinchot. Taft thought Pinchot was a bit of a fanatic. He loved trees a bit too much. Who is this hippie, essentially? So, Taft was predisposed to believe Ballinger's side of the story. Ballinger, incidentally, was a man who had receipts for a lot of things and liked to talk about the law.

These were the kind of things that Taft liked to talk about. Everything seemed above board in Taft's mind. So much so that after hearing Glarvis's side of the story and reading Pinchot's letter, Taft wrote to Ballinger. Well, what's's side of the story and reading Pinchot's letter, that Taft wrote to Ballinger. Well, what's your side of this story? He asked Ballinger to write up a memo concluding that Ballinger was completely innocent, but write it as if Taft had written it. So put your side of the story down, write it as if I wrote it, because it will just save us time because you're clearly innocent. Ooh.

Yeah, it's a little bit dodgy, isn't it, to say the least? Well, an assistant of Ballinger did exactly that. He wrote up a memo as if he was Taft, saying Ballinger is completely innocent for this reason and that reason. Remember, that is Ballinger's assistant who wrote that. Yeah. Yeah. Taft then, for good measure, fired Glarus the whistleblower.

It was insubordination. It's just not what you do in government. How dare you go against your own government? There's no room in the Taft government for such disloyalty. Right. Now, Taft, from this point on, kept a very keen eye on Pinchot, refusing to believe that this man was actually acting on behalf of, like, trees and rivers and stuff. Pinchot must have an agenda here. He's trying to bring me down. No one cares about nature that

much. So, Taft decided that he was probably going to have to fire Pinchot as soon as possible. In the meantime people started asking the president about his firing of Glarvis the whistleblower well what was going on there? How did you know Ballinger was innocent exactly? Why are you ignoring these accusations of corruption? What is it that made you so convinced Ballinger

was telling the truth? Annoyed by all these questions Taft asked his Attorney General to prepare a memo explaining why Ballinger was innocent. This memo was far more detailed than anything had been created so far. It just set everything else nice and neatly and legally why Ballinger was innocent. Taft then asked his Attorney General to backdate the memo so it looked like it had been written before Glarvis had been fired. Oh, like rub out the date sort of thing and change it sort of thing.

Yeah, exactly. This would make it look like that Taft was in full possession of all the facts when he decided to believe Ballinger rather than just taking his word for it. However, this would turn out to be a big mistake. Glarus, the whistleblower, was not going to go down quietly and was very loudly telling everyone just how corrupt the land office was, doing interviews with magazines and newspapers, claiming that the robber barons owned the land department. Huge corruption in government. Eventually, the political pressure grew and grew until Taft agreed to a congressional investigation.

Fine, have an investigation, then that will put an end to it. Things then get worse, because Pinchot, through a senator, let it be known that Taft was not actually in possession of all the facts when he had fired Glarus. Pinchot had heard that the memo had been backdated. So Taft agonised what to do. He really, really wanted to fire Pinchot. Pinchot was becoming a thorn in his side.

He was convinced that Pinchot was trying to bring him down. But he also knew that it would look really bad to the general public. But perhaps more importantly, it would really anger Roosevelt. Am I the only one currently listening to this thinking that Pinchot sounds like a dog? Maybe. All right maybe just the name yeah Pinchot it does sound a bit like a dog if you want to picture him as a dog you can

I have been past 10 minutes you know those pictures of dogs playing cards and snooker yes a dog like that so he can still be doing stuff yeah fair enough so yeah as I was saying uh taft was uh worried that roosevelt would be angered remember pincho is a very good friend of roosevelt and together they're determined to uh save the forests and the rivers from the pollution he's a loyal

friend you could say exactly so taft gets an idea he would fire pinot for his insubordination and just generally not being a good boy and he would put in place another leading conservationist, hopefully therefore convincing Roosevelt that it's fine Roosevelt, your policies are safe I just want to get rid of Pinchot, I don't like him but then things get even worse

because in the trial that was going on it became very clear that Taft had backdated the Attorney General's memo it all just came out in the trial that was going on, it became very clear that Taft had backdated the Attorney General's memo. It all just came out in the wash. Therefore, it became public knowledge that Taft had based his decision to fire Glarus on a memo written by Ballinger's assistant. Ooh. Which is just really dodgy.

So Taft tried to explain himself. Yes, he had backdated the memo. I only did that because I wanted it to look more honest. Apparently, he didn't want it to look like he had thought of these things later than he had. I mean, yes, the memo might have been written later, but in my head, I had all those thoughts. So if you think about it, it's more honest to backdate the memo to when I was thinking about it rather than when the memo was actually written. What an idiot.

Is what a lot of people responded. However, this was good enough for Congress. Congress was very much on Taft's side. He had the numbers and this was enough for him to get away with it. But the damage had been done. The public

saw Taft as corrupt and in the pocket of the robber barons. Much of the press let it be known what they thought. In particular, progressive political magazines that were popular in the day. They started attacking Taft regularly. In a very petty

move, Taft feeling attacked then asked Congress to raise the postal rates on political magazines in the country, arguing that the government should not be subsidising journalists who failed their duties to, and I quote, occupy a disinterred passion as controllers of public opinion. Controlling free speech. You could argue that, yeah. First Amendment. It's not a great look, is it?

No. I mean, I'd argue this is worse than the the the glass yeah you know definitely uh more damaging to taft uh than the dent in public opinion however was that his friend and ex-president roosevelt was fuming he had concluded from all of this that taft was actively trying to dismantle Roosevelt's conservationist reforms. And actually, now Roosevelt thought about it, that tariff bill that Taft had put together near the start of his presidency really wasn't that good, was it? In fact, now he really thought about it, Roosevelt started to think that Taft was just the wrong man for the job. Maybe he shouldn't be president. Awkward. Yeah, Taft attempted to mend the damage by writing to Roosevelt,

but instead of explaining any of his actions to his old friend, he told Roosevelt to just read all the publicly available information and come to the conclusion that Taft was not against Roosevelt. I won't explain anything, just read it for yourself and come to the conclusion I want you to. Yeah. It's not the most persuasive argument, is it? Yeah, just read the transcript. Well, this was not enough, and Roosevelt refused an invitation to the White House to discuss things further,

claiming that it wasn't on for ex-presidents to go into Washington. But, I mean, that's a weak excuse. That had certainly happened before. And then Roosevelt went on the attack. The Supreme Court had recently made a couple of decisions that Roosevelt disagreed with. And Roosevelt started to talk about the need to reform the Supreme Court,

reform it in a way that the popular vote could overturn Supreme Court decisions. This was the only way in Roosevelt's eyes that an inherently conservative branch of government could start passing Court decisions. This was the only way in Roosevelt's eyes that an inherently conservative branch of government could start passing anything progressive. If we're going to do anything decent in this country, the Supreme Court needs to change. Now, Roosevelt wasn't just saying this to his friends.

He was starting to make public speeches about it. Taft saw this as a direct attack. Now, remember, he loves the Supreme Court. All he ever has wanted to do is be on the Supreme Court. And Roosevelt is now purposely coming out and saying it's not fit for purpose. It needs to change. It's like attacking his own child. Almost.

I mean, Haft loved the Supreme Court so much that when he was sworn in to be president, he used the same Bible that the Supreme Court used to swear in Chief Justices. I mean, that's how much he loves the Supreme Court. Do you think it's a fantasy then? I'm now getting signed in as Chief Justice for life. He replaced him, his head.

Yeah. Yeah. In a monologue, I'm using the Chief Justice Bible so maybe I am Chief Justice. No one can prove otherwise. Yeah, maybe. He's not happy at this point, though, because his old friend's just attacking his beloved court. When he heard the news that Roosevelt was giving these speeches,

Taft hurled a golf club in frustration, showing a bit of that anger we saw in his first episode when he beat a man's face into the pavement. Oh yeah, I'd learn about that. Yeah, yeah, he's got a bit of an angry side, this Taft. Anyway, Roosevelt and Taft had then become open political enemies. The Democrats were largely forgotten, it seems. Roosevelt and his faction of the Republics were seen as the opposition by many. One area where they started fighting was over monopolies, or trusts as they

were known. As we've seen, Roosevelt had always ruled with a square deal policy. That's how he'd describe it, essentially taking case by case, using what he would describe as common sense to decide whether a company was a bad monopoly or trust or a good trust. A bad trust being one that used a monopoly to dominate the markets. A good trust being a company that worked to create jobs and grow the economy. In other words, it was how Roosevelt felt on the day which company he'd go after. Taft, however, was and always had been a stickler for the rules and he did not like this use your judgement style, it was obviously

open for corruption, the law was the law the Sherman Antitrust Act must be followed to the letter so Taft started to do so he decided to go after US Steel, who had just become the first billion dollar company in the world, it was currently

making a quarter of all steel on the planet wow yeah it was run by obviously take a guess jp morgan yeah yeah of course yeah it was jp morgan and also andrew carnegie and other robert barons of the age but yeah the same group roosevelt had never gone after US Steel. He personally saw it as a good monopoly. It seemed to be doing a good job. Taft, however, disagreed with such opinions and filed an antitrust

act against the company. We're going to dismantle the company. I'm sure JP Morgan, Carnegie and etc just went, yeah, fair play, fair cop, gov. Not quite. And to add fuel to the fire,

the Justice Department announced that U.S. Steel had profited from the crash of 1907. Whilst everyone was struggling to feed themselves, this monopoly was actually raking in the money still. The reason why U.S. Steel had managed to profit so much is because Roosevelt had gone to J.P. Morgan and made a deal with him to help save the economy.

If you remember, we covered this in Roosevelt's episode. Yeah. Now, the insinuation was clear from Taft's government here. J.P. Morgan had fooled Roosevelt into thinking that he was saving the economy, but instead J.P. Morgan was just lining his own pockets. And Roosevelt

had fallen for it. So not only was Taft his own pockets. And Roosevelt had fallen for it. So not only was Taft going after U.S. Steel, he was also making it very clear that he thought Roosevelt was a fool. Yeah. A furious Roosevelt wrote an article for Outlook magazine declaring that Taft was far too aggressive with his antitrust laws and that this would bring the economy to ruin. Trusts had to be regulated,

he claimed, but Taft just wants to destroy them all, regardless of how much they could benefit the country. The article was so aggressive, in fact, that many wondered if this was Roosevelt gearing up to run against Taft in the next convention. And it was, because that was exactly what Roosevelt had decided to do. He starts to publicly criticise almost all of Taft's decisions, including the further fortifying of the Mexican border, because things were looking a bit dodgy down there. Taft felt hurt, personally attacked. He said afterwards that Roosevelt put all presidents into two camps,

a Lincoln camp and a Buchanan camp. He lamented that Roosevelt had always seen Taft as a Buchanan president and Roosevelt had always put himself in a Lincoln president camp. Taft then complained that this is very much like a schoolgirl who would come home and decide on her own that she was the best in the class rather than being told by the teacher. Ooh. Yeah. As you can see, it's all getting very bitter.

Gloves are off. Gloves are off. Anyway, Taft came out in a speech. He decided he was going to fight this attack from Roosevelt. He said he was very disappointed to have to fight for the nomination, but fight he would. I'll quote him, I'm a man of peace.

I don't want to fight. But when I do fight, I hit hard. Even a rat in a corner will fight. Basically calling Ruzza a rat. Oh, no, no, no, you've misunderstood. I mean, that would possibly have worked reasonably well. Unfortunately, this is Taft referring to himself as the rat. Oh.

Yeah, it's not a good look, is it? If you're going to use a metaphor, don't make yourself the rat in Oh. Yeah, it's not a good look, is it? If you're going to use a metaphor, don't make yourself the rat in a metaphor. He's putting himself as the underdog, isn't he? You can tell. It's almost like mentally he realises that he's no contest. He will not be able to defeat Roosevelt.

Anyway, the battle lines are drawn. There were many in the Republican Party who were more than willing to back Taft. Or indeed anyone, rather than the loose cannon Roosevelt. They didn't care that he was popular. In fact, the fact was that Roosevelt was in no way controllable, and he was becoming more and more radical with his progressive views. So although Roosevelt was a popular president,

he wasn't actually hugely popular in his party. So there were many in the Republican Party more than happy to back Taft. However, Roosevelt had a large following outside the party and also just with your average Republican. And this was important because the way the nominations were being done had just changed. Instead of having a national convention where delegates would turn up and vote for their man, which we've seen every episode so far, many states were starting to introduce primaries where people would vote for their nomination. Now, we're not at the point where all states do this yet. Many states still selected in the old way where delegates would select.

So what this means is we've got a nomination that comes in stages. You've got those states that had a primary. Those votes would be counted up and then there would be a national convention and the rest of the votes would be counted up and everything would be put together. That seems fair. It's certainly fairer than it used to be. Things are looking a bit better. The primaries aided Roosevelt because obviously he was very popular with the general people. And when the primary results came in, Roosevelt crushed Taft completely. 278 delegates

to 48. That's a lot. Just so you know, the first man to 504 votes would be the winner. So, in the National Convention, Roosevelt's already done a lot to win this. Taft is sinking fast.

However, despite having the disadvantage in the primaries, the reverse was true for Taft in the Convention. Because those states that were selecting via representation, who were about to give their votes, were mostly party loyalists. And they were more than happy to vote for Taft rather than this loose cannon Roosevelt. The votes in the convention were completely decisive. 561 votes to Taft, 107 to Roosevelt. So it didn't matter that the primaries were so much in favour of Roosevelt. The national convention gave it to Taft.

Roosevelt and his followers were outraged because they were convinced that some dodgy dealings had been going on. No, that never happens. Well, a lot of votes in the primary section actually hadn't come through straight away because they were being contested. And almost every single vote that was contested was awarded to Taft instead of

Roosevelt, even though he so strongly had won all the others. It did seem a bit dodgy. It's still not clear whether actual dodgy stuff happened here. That sounds familiar. That sounds like 2015, 2016. There have been a number of dodgy elections in American history, yeah, and this definitely is a dodgy nomination process. Roosevelt and his faction felt that they had been robbed of their nomination. So angered, in fact, was Roosevelt and his faction that Roosevelt announced that he was quitting. He was no longer a Republican.

In fact, he was forming his own party. Thank you very much. The Progressive Party, which became known as the Bull Moose Party, because Roosevelt kept talking about how he was as strong as a bull moose. What's a bull moose? A big moose.

A really big moose. Oh, like a male moose. Yeah, a big, big, big moose. Big antlers. Yeah, exactly. The highest cause of road casualties in Canada, I believe. Is it? I don't know.

I'll believe you. Let's just say that's a fact. Yeah, this announcement came as a huge shock to the Republicans, almost seen as treasonous to some. Roosevelt was taking his substantial faction and forming a new party. This would obviously split the Republican vote. They would then have a three-way election, giving the Democrats a huge opportunity to slip into the White House while the Republicans and the progressives fought. Who's the Democratic nominee?

A man named Woodrow Wilson. Ah, I wonder who wins? Well, let's find out, shall we? Roosevelt was very determined to push ahead, even though he knew that it could make the road to the White House easier for the Democrats. Yeah. Taft was very angered by this, saying about Roosevelt, the fake, the juggler, so far as personal relations with him are concerned, they don't exist. Yeah. All friendship ties just cut. Taft was in fact so angered that he let it be known that

he would rather Woodrow Wilson win the election than Roosevelt. Ooh. Rather a Democrat than Roosevelt. So he's attempted to throw the election almost. Oh no, he'd won himself. Yeah. But if he was going to lose, he'd rather lose to Wilson than Roosevelt.

And then a three-way election starts up, which we don't see very often at all. The progressives called for reform, essentially. Reform in the labour laws, for example, getting a minimum wage in place. A general end of corruption. A reform in the Supreme Court that Roosevelt was talking about before, so more progressive ideas could get through that stubborn branch of government. Generally, we're still very much looking like

we're in the Gilded Age here. We need more reform to get out of it. The Republicans went hard on the idea of the Constitution and how it couldn't be changed. The Supreme Court was the backbone of America, so just ignore what Roosevelt's saying, essentially. It's a very conservative view, isn't it? and how it couldn't be changed. The Supreme Court was the backbone of America. So just ignore what Roosevelt's saying, essentially. It's a very conservative view, isn't it?

Yes, the Republicans are being pushed more to the right at this point. The Democrats were pushing more the idea of economic reforms, lowering the tariff. They just banged on about tariffs a bit, essentially. Oh, God. So you've got three parties all with actually different messages. It's very unusual in American politics. But it became obvious almost immediately that the Republicans were in trouble here. The Democrats' economic policies were popular. People were struggling. Economic policies to make us not struggle sounds good. The progressives had Roosevelt, who was calling for change. A popular president saying we can make even more changes to make your life better.

That's a strong message. The Republican message was pretty much, this is all right, isn't it? What you all moaning about? Let's just keep on like we are now, even though most of you are struggling to feed your families i imagine someone's saying that while they're sitting at their desk with their feet on the desk smoking a massive cigar surrounded by bags of cash yeah exactly i mean the republican party have managed to fight themselves into a corner where they just are coming across as very out of touch elitist not caring about the people.

It's not a good look. Taft simply just was not popular. I'll quote him here. Without knowing much about me, they don't like me. He apparently became quite philosophical about it. He decided that people didn't like him just because they didn't know him. If they got to know him, they'd like him. It was just politics. You should have started a podcast.

Yeah, exactly. Actually, no, he kind of did. I didn't really talk about it. During his and Brian's election campaign, a new technology had been brought out where they could record their own speeches, press them into a record and play them through

gramophones. There's a theory the reason why Taft managed to defeat Brian, who was such a good speaker, is that Brian wasn't very good at being recorded. He lost a lot of his bluster and his emotion, whereas Taft, who was just very straight down the middle, talked about legalities, actually came across quite well on the gramophone.

Oh, that's scary. So Brian was like the audience, fed off the audience and the cheers. Yeah, exactly. Like turned around and looked at them rather than his opponent, that sort of thing. I'd like to think Brian did the two fingers and a wink kind of pointing motion quite a lot.

Yeah. And take that away from him, it just wasn't as good. So there are some theories that that's why Taft was able to come across as more presidential than Brian during their election. So Brian came across as Boris Johnson. Taft came across as Keir Starmer. Yeah, if you want to go modern with your analogies there, then yes, you could argue there are some similarities.

To American listeners, Boris Johnson is the British Prime Minister and Keir Starmer is the leader of the opposition party. Also, in your analogy, the policies in no way line up whatsoever, but in terms of style, yeah, certainly. Anyway, why did we talk about that? Oh yeah, you said Taft should have started a podcast. It's the closest thing you could get to a podcast about then. That was a weird, weird divergence, I felt. Yeah, I perhaps should have mentioned that near the start, but you know what? Yeah, deal with it. it anyway we're now in his second election campaign, not his first one and people just

are not liking Taft, the Republicans are struggling, then Roosevelt was shot before giving a campaign speech and then gave the speech anyway, I've heard about this this is what I was thinking of how do you compete with that? you can't, You just can't.

Just imagine Taft. It's like, so he was shot and he did the speech anyway. Can I do that? No, sir. We strongly advise against that. Yeah. Things were looking very bad for the Republicans. And they looked bad for the Republicans because they were bad for the Republicans, and they looked bad for the Republicans because they were bad for the Republicans. Election Day came along, three-way race.

Taft got 3.5 million votes. Roosevelt got just over 4 million, and Wilson got just over 6. Wow. Electoral College votes, Taft got 8. Electoral college votes, Taft got eight, Roosevelt got 88, and Wilson got a whopping 435. Splitting the Republican vote just destroyed them. They got annihilated, even Roosevelt. Yes, they did. Wow.

Yeah, well, they split their vote. Yeah. It just opened the door for the Democrats. split their vote. Yeah. It just opened the door for the Democrats. The Republican Party, who had been in power almost non-stop for half a century, had just come third in a system that

was an entrenched two-party system. Wow. That's about as bad as you can possibly do in an election. That's not great, is it? So there you go. Taft is out. He's no longer the president. His presidency was seen by many as a complete disaster perhaps unfairly to be fair um because actually you could argue

it was more roosevolts doing the party split but i suppose it takes two to tango as they say yes um but as embarrassing as this is for taft uh he gets a happy ending, you'll be pleased to know. I went for massage. Not in that way, Jamie. No, not as far as I'm aware, anyway. Because about ten years after being president, he was finally appointed to his dream job. Oh, he got it. He finally does it. He is put on the Supreme Court.

I'm not going to go into details, because we don't do much details in post-presidency life, but apparently he was much happier in his role than he ever was as president, or at least to begin with, because unfortunately his health starts to fade. He starts to mistrust his memory and his own ability to do the job. He starts to think about maybe retiring because obviously he wouldn't be able to make judgments properly. But then he changes his mind and just refuses to retire, because if he did, the current president, this time a man named Hoover, would be able to put someone in the court. And I'll quote Taft here,

I am older and slower and less acute and more confused. However, as long as things continue as they are, and I am able to answer my place, I must stay on the court in order to prevent the Bolsheviki from getting control. Wow. This early on. Oh, yes. So that's nice. He decided to just stay on as one of the most important judges in the world, even though he didn't think he could do the job just because he didn't want his replacement to be more left-wing than him.

Nice to see things have changed. Yeah. Anyway, nearly a decade on the court with the failing half, William Taft dies in 1930. Wow. Yeah. It's not very long ago, was it? Well, 90 years.

But I mean, still still We're getting closer So he died When my When probably our Grandparents were born Yeah Yeah around then Yeah

We're only Three generations off So there you go That's Taft Any thoughts before We go to rate him? He's not going to score Highly I don't think

Oh well let's find out Then shall we He's going to flatline Statesmanship Okay Statesmanship! Okay, statesmanship. You might not be surprised to learn he's historically not done very well when he's been judged on how good a president he was. However, it should be said this perception is changing rapidly, or at least so it seems, because Taft was a stickler for the Constitution and the rules. And for whatever reason, it's hard to pinpoint,

it would seem that historians right now in the United States are starting to look back at a president who was a stickler for the rules with great fondness. Like within the last four years. What is really interesting is the biography that I read about Taft is the first biography I have read that was written post-2016. Interesting. Oh, it shows. It really shows. Just after every page, and this is how presidents should be. It wasn't quite that bad. There were a few references to the idiocy that was the Brexit referendum,

a few references to presidents just not following the constitution. Yeah. The views were made clear. And it was generally decided that no, Taft wasn't great, but at least he wasn't playing fast and loose with the rules. So there you go. So you can say that about him. But I mean, the fact is, though, his presidency is just dominated by the fact that he fell out with Roosevelt and then the party split. He did, to be fair to him, go after many trusts,

almost double the amount that Roosevelt did. So he was trying to crack down on the monopolies and the corruption. And he didn't believe in using his own judgment to decide which ones to go after. He followed the rules. He kept it legal. It takes away the emotion from that and takes away even more corruption.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that's a positive. But Roosevelt, however, pushed the idea that Taft was like Buchanan. He kept mentioning it and this kind of stuck in the public consciousness. But I think this is a bit unfair. I mean, Taft was perhaps not great, but he wasn't actively harming the country like Buchanan was. I mean, if you remember,

Buchanan's government was actively selling arms to the Confederacy at one point. I really don't think that you can put Taft in the same league as Buchanan. But that said said he is just very much a president it's like yeah yeah he's he's a fart in the wind on in a on a very windy day yeah I mean it's there but it's just you could argue uh that he maybe he should get some points because it was very widely accepted he was a better judge on the Supreme court than the president.

He actually did some good job reforming the courts and that is statesmanship, just not presidency statesmanship, but we have considered things before the presidency before and some things post. So I think maybe a little bit for that. But also, but you know, the fact that he's such a stick of the rules is sort rules shows how he was led by the law and the rules.

It does show that judgment. Yeah, you see, being a stickler for the rules is all very good when the rules are good. That is true. When you've been living through the Gilded Age and everyone's up to their necks in corruption and people are struggling to feed their families while businesses make a fortune,

maybe the rules need to be changed. That's true. Which is what Roosevelt's argument was and also what the Democrats' argument was, and that's what most people thought, and it's why the Republicans were utterly crushed. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I don't know. I'm not too convinced. I don't think he can pick up many points here. He's not awful. I'm not, like, giving him nothing. No. I'll probably give him three. Yeah, I'm thinking around three.

It's just not great, is it? There you go. That is six. Next round. Disgrace game. He beat a man's face into the pavement because he said something nasty about his dad. We've all done that.

That's an odd story. There's nothing else quite like it that I read about apart from he'd thrown the golf club. Yeah. And the whole court thing and the court thing that that like the dog oh yes yes um yeah i was about to get into that um so yeah so you've got the anger and then like you say you've got the the scandal i mean it's just a little bit corruptiony isn't it it's not great backdating memos to try and persuade people, but that's what you were thinking, honest. And getting the person whose side of the story you're listening to to write up his own defence and put it in your own words is just not on. So that's not great.

Considering he was such a stickler for the rules, apparently, he definitely seemed to be willing to bend them quite a bit there. I was expecting more from Taff, to be honest. I was disappointed in him. That's what I was. That's worse than being angry. Exactly. So, you've got that. And then, third and finally, as ever, racism.

We need to talk about racism. He obviously is racist, but it does seem to be a subconscious racism. Obviously bad, because racism's bad, but at least he didn't actively go out of his way to be racist, write racist books, commit genocide, the things that some other presidents have done. So that's good.

The worst stuff comes from the Philippines, where he was just being incredibly condescending. Not very nice. Imperialistic. Yeah, exactly. In his defence, however, he does seem to have been a restraining factor on the US military. You can very easily argue that things would have been worse in the Philippines if he hadn't been there holding the military back slightly.

Or he hadn't liked the Philippines. Yeah, so again, he's there's obviously the racism, but I think he would have been hurt if he found out in the future he would be seen as racist because I don't think he would have seen it in that way. He's just been grown up being told all his life that he is superior and he

didn't bother to question it. Again, obviously bad but not as bad as some other presidents. So there you go. Overall, I really don't think we've got much here. I mean, you've got to give at least a point for smashing a guy's face into the pavement. I'm probably giving minus two.

Yeah. The big scandal thing. Yeah, I think I'm going for that. I mean, the scandal wasn't actually huge. It just wasn't really on. Yeah, minus two. That's what I'm going for. I'm going for that. I mean, the scandal wasn't actually huge. It just wasn't really on. Yeah, minus two. That's what I'm going for. I'm agreeing with you.

So that's minus four. How's he doing so far, Jamie? He's got a total of plus two. Okay, let's see. Maybe his next round, maybe this is it for him. Silver's Green. He was born. He went to school.

He went to college. He trained to be a lawyer. He was given various political jobs. He was given various judgeship jobs. He was then given the job where he went to this time. He was essentially given the president job by Roosevelt after this. And then Roosevelt took it away again. And then he got his dream job at the end. And then he stubbornly kept hold of it even when he couldn't do it anymore just to stop those damn lefties.

Yeah. So, uh... I think if you can do a series on this that the Philippines and the Roosevelt arguments would be your arc for the season, wouldn't it? I definitely think you could do something on the Philippines, but I think Taft would be not like an extra. I mean, he'd have a significant part, but he wouldn't be the main character.

And that is by far the most interesting part of his life. I mean, apart from that, he's just given job after job. He never seems to have to work for it doors just fling open for him what do they fling open because he's good at his jobs no no no I mean it's not to say he was bad at the jobs but he wasn't being given jobs because people were going oh wow have you seen what William Taft's up to it's amazing it was let's give this job to William Taft his name is William Taft, son of Taft. So he didn't earn anything.

No, no. And when you're just given jobs, there's less drama. So there's less to do. It's just not that interesting a life. I agree. I suppose maybe you could go into the personal stuff about his struggles with his weight. Incidentally, after he became president,

without the stress of being the president, he was able to diet a lot again and spent the rest of his life reasonably trim. But again, cartoons were stuck in the imagination of the public, so that's the image that people have of him. And like you say, obviously you've got Nellie as well. Nellie, far more interesting. Yeah, very determined and the tragic, I don't want to't say ending but a tragic sort of as a teenager she dreamt of being the first lady and then she she really worked hard doing everything she could to become first lady when she finally got there she suffered a stroke i mean that i mean that that silver screen that that's some good story there but unfortunately we're not doing

nelly we're doing williamelly. We're doing William and his life just wasn't as interesting. I'm going to go for just because of the Philippine stuff, two. I'm going to give him a three. That's a mere five. Next round. Conversability. So here is his official

portrait. Ah. I like the background. The background's nice. Blue. We don't usually get blue in the background. The background's nice. Blue. We don't usually get blue in the background. No, it's quite calming. Yeah, usually it's red. But, I mean, I'm surprised you're talking about the background because there was one obvious great thing about Taft. Oh, he looks like a seal.

He's got an amazing moustache. Yeah. I mean, that is just good moustache-age. It's twirly. It's a twirly moustache. I mean, it's not like full-on twirly, but it's getting there. Kicks up at the edges,

which is, that's good. And as some people have said on the comments, he's the last president with facial hair, I believe. He is the last president with facial hair, which is a shame. I mean, one day it'll happen again, I'm sure. But no country should go over 100 years without any facial hair.

It's just, it's not right. But there you go. Interestingly as well, it's a lot more arty than a lot we've seen so far. You can actually see the brush strokes. They've not attempted to make it look photorealistic. Yes, they've gone for the more, not quite stylised. Yeah, which might be because photography is now so prevalent. There's less of a need to be photorealistic.

Just more go with a feel. I quite like this one. Yeah? I like his moustache. I like the blue. I just like the fact that it looks like someone's sort of slapdash. Just popped it together. Yeah.

I'll go in slightly above. Can I go for six? I was thinking exactly the same. I'll go for six as together. Yeah. I'll go in slightly above. Can I go for six? I was thinking exactly the same. I'll go for six as well. Okay. Actually, no. I'm going to go for seven because it's the last one with Faze River.

Fair enough. Okay, so that's six for you, seven for me. So that is 3.25 for Canvas Ability. Not too bad. Bonus! One term, he sank like the Titanic. Hasn't happened yet, though.

No, no, it did. It happened during his presidency. When did he stop being president? Officially, he lost the 1912 election, so he stopped being president in 1913. Yeah, it would have been, because the Titanic sank in April. Yeah, oh, wow, interesting. So there you go. In fact, there's a quote of someone near Taft saying, I don't know which will be the longest lasting disaster,

the Titanic or Taft, which is a bit harsh. Yeah, so one term. Assassination, we've got a debate here. No, I'm not counting that. That's what he caught with a gun. No, but I mean, apparently he was going to go for it. I mean, it's not very clear who he was going for. But nothing happened.

It's not an assassination attempt. Nothing happened. Well, with that argument, there's never an assassination attempt. Because if something happened, then the guy got killed. So that's just an assassination. Yeah, but he could have shot and he could have missed. Yeah, but maybe they weren't aiming. But Roosevelt had an assassination attempt, for example. He got

shot and carried on talking. Yeah, okay. Okay, I'm willing to say no. Okay, so no points for assassination. Election won. He won, but not in a landslide. 66.5% of the Electoral College votes against O'Brien. So, yeah, there you go.

That is two for the bonus round. So, spend a while adding those up. He's got a total of 12.25. 12.25. That's not good. But fair, I think. Should we compare with Roosevelt? Go on then.

With corrections, you've got 38.5. Yeah. Taft will be disappointed with that. But I think most of history have said similar things to what we're saying. He just wasn't that good, unfortunately. But he was doing his dream job. He probably didn't care. He's probably not bothered.

I'm just going to say it. I'd say he's actually the least interesting president we have done yet. But he wasn't an awful, awful human being, so he's not got the lowest score. Wasn't McKinley pretty boring? McKinley was pretty boring, but I'm slightly biased because just researching him was such a nightmare. He got zero for Silver Screen.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. McKinley was also quite dull. Yeah. It's a good job we had Roosevelt to talk about for a bit, isn't it? Yes. Right, OK. Next, oh, no, sorry. We need to say no to the next thing.

American or American no right so next time Woodrow Wilson heard of him before first world war guy oh yes because we're about to enter modern history yes modern history as some people call it yeah so look forward to that next time

but that is next time and this time we are done so thank you very much for listening. Thank you for the reviews. And don't forget to download some Pubby and iTunes. And you can message us on Facebook and Twitter. Yes, you can. Great to hear from you.

Yes. Great. All that needs to be said then is... Goodbye. Goodbye. Ah Taft, welcome to the afterlife. This is not what I was expecting. Yes, it's a lot less cloudy than I was imagining.

There's also a lot fewer people. There's only 26 of you. Is that Lincoln? Yes, that's Lincoln there. Hang on, sorry, I've just... Still got the hole. I've just realised, you're Fillmore. It's you, isn't it? You're Fillmore. I am Fillmore.

Is this the president afterlife? This is the presidential suite of the afterlife, yes it is. We get our own afterlife. We get to spend the rest of eternity talking to each other, spinning yarns, telling tales. It'll be fantastic. Don't talk to Andrew Jackson. Really? He's got quite a temper.

Right, okay. Thanks for the warning. Well, since you're here, why don't you regale us all with a story I know. Tell us your biggest scandal. What's your most scandalicious story? Scandal? Yeah, we've been dining off Tyler's massive gun story for weeks now. We could do with something else. Oh. So come on, what you got?

Okay, well, no, there was one scandal during my presidency. Are you ready? It's a bit exciting. Come on lads, gather round. I mean I was embarrassed at the time but I had a new perspective on things. Yeah, no, I've got a story for you. Are you ready for this? It involves the General Land Office a backdated

memo. And... No, that's it oh for god's sake