American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 28.1 Woodrow Wilson

Episode Date: July 11, 2020

He is known as the president during WWI, but was there more to Wilson? What about his early life? Did he do anything other than study? Not really, but some interesting stuff happened around him, so join us and find out!

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Woodrow Wilson, part one. Hello, and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is episode 28.1. It is the one and only Woodrow Wilson. Ah, yeah, yeah. There might be more, actually, now I think about it. But he's the only president called Woodrow Wilson.

I'm going to struggle with his name for the whole thing, I know I am. Yeah, Woodrow's a bit of an unusual name, isn't it? It's not a name you hear very often. I mean, I know Woody Harrelson, I've heard of him, but I don't know if I should have thought of Woodrow. And Woody from Toy Story. Yeah, that's him as well. Oh, well, we'll get into that, we will, in a bit.

Do you know anything about Woodrow? Bits and pieces, it's very broad strokes, though. Yeah, that's him as well. Oh, well, we'll get into that. We will in a bit. Do you know anything about Woodrow? Bits and pieces. It's very broad strokes, though. Yeah, because we're getting into a period of history I know you actually know about now. Yeah. Yeah, I do. So I know he was president.

Yeah. He's one of the instigators or one of the core people That pushed the League of Nations Which the precursor to the UN After the First World War I know he did quite a bit of reform That was up to this time Some of the biggest reforms

I'm not sure what it was Whether it was tax or boring tariffy things And he was quite tall Okay Well we'll see if those predictions are true, shall we? Okay. Shall we do our opening scene? Yeah, go on.

Go on, hit me with something. Let's go with a mirror. Liking this. The camera view is the person's eyes staring into the mirror, but the face is blurry to start with. But then it focuses and we see... A man. A man with angular features.

Long nose, clean-shaven chin. The kind of man that you don't want to say, sorry, Mr Wilson, I forgot my homework tea. Yeah. Just to be clear, this is just a man looking in a mirror. It was misty, but it's cleared, yeah? Yeah, he's just focused. As the screen clears

and is less unfocused and becomes more in focus the sound kicks in. Tick. Tuck. Tick. I know what that is. That's a clock, isn't it? You're on it.

And as the camera sort of anti-pans um out uh someone thank you listener and i can't remember who it was because this is ages ago and i didn't plan to bring it up did send me a little picture showing all the different names for all the camera movements um yeah it was very useful i don't remember any of them so the camera anti-pans and you can see that Wilson is looking into a little mirror on his desk and next to his desk is also

a clock and you also hear Is that another clock? It's not another clock. Is he tapping something? No, he's not tapping something. Is he tutting repeatedly and in rhythm? You know what? Yes. That's what he's not tapping something. Is he tutting repeatedly and in rhythm? You know what? Yes, that's what he's doing.

Because he's reading something and he's just tutting as he's reading it. And then you hear... Click, click, click, click, click, click. Window cleaner. Well, outside, just wiping. Well, I was thinking with the squeegee hitting the edge. Oh, I see. No, it's not a window, with the squeegee, like, hitting the edge. Oh, I see.

No, it's not a window cleaner. Why not put one of those in as well? It's a little Newton's cradle on his desk. Oh, that's incredibly 80s of him. It is. We're in the 1880s. No, we're not, actually. We're a bit beyond that.

But, no, he got given it as a gift in the 1880s. Then you hear... I was moving away, so somebody walking down the corridor as a gift in the 1880s. Then you hear... Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Oh, it's moving away. So it's somebody walking down the corridor in high heel in stilettos. No, no. It's him just clicking on his pen on and off. Oh.

Yeah. That is very impressive. You did that with your mouth. It sounded just like a real pen. That's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah. So anyway, all of these are coming in. It just slowly, right, it's just dead silence

apart from just these different ticks and clicks and tocks that are going off at different times. And the camera slowly pans. It's the noisiest room in the building. Yeah. The room just pans around. You're in an office and it is just Wilson reading a report. And then someone puts their head around the door.

Professor Wilson. And Professor Wilson looks up and he just says, not now. I'm reading. And he looks down again. And then, I don't know, just slowly the words Wilson drift across the screen as you watch Wilson fall asleep at his desk or something. Oh, I feel this is good foreshadowing. There you go, that's the start of Wilson part one.

Oh my god. I tried, Jamie. We'll see what we can do. Oh, no, no, go back in time. As someone says Professor Wilson and he says not now I'm reading, zoom in so you go back to his eyes again like you did at the start and his eyes glow red. Yeah, I'm putting that in.

There you go. Nice. There you go. A bit more intriguing there. Yeah, a bit more intriguing. Okay. Right. Okay, let's start.

High hopes. World War I sets off next episode, okay, so don't worry. Okay, let's start. High hopes? Um... World War I sets off next episode, okay? So don't worry. Yeah. We're now officially into modern history. Yeah. Right.

But that doesn't happen this episode, because this episode we start in a small town of around 4,000 people. Or should I say 4,001? Because on December the 28th, 1856, in Virginia, the third child of Reverend Wilson and Jesse Woodrow, now Jesse Wilson, was born. So his dad was a reverend? His dad was a reverend, yes. Oh, interesting. Yeah, the reverend, Joseph Wilson, was born and raised in Ohio. He'd worked as a printer, and then in a a school before going into the cemetery. Cemetery?

He probably rolled through a cemetery to get to the seminary. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're probably close. Joseph was apparently a nice, fun-loving guy. He loved tanning puns, apparently. Loved a good pun.

That's what she said. Yay! Pun. Let's hope that the puns were actual puns and not just that really dodgy innuendo yes i think that's what it was yeah probably tanning puns and drinking scotch were his favorite pastimes i get the feeling we would have got on with joseph wilson i think so well sort of other bits come out later, maybe less so. Anyway, Joseph had met Jessie Woodrow,

and they had wed in 1849. Jessie Woodrow was born in England, but she'd moved to the States at the age of five. She's a limey. She is a limey. Bright green she was. Walked around with an upper crust clipped British accent She used to live in a castle

She knew the Queen all sorts I knew that guy from Blackpool called Bernard Yeah exactly Everyone seems to know Now we don't know much about Jessie Apart from what we've just made up But apparently Little Woodrow Wilson inherited her eyes

This is one thing that he inherited Of his mother. Yeah. I mean, there are things you want left to you in a will, but eyeballs isn't... Not literally. The reason why I'm mentioning this, though, this is possibly the most exciting thing we're going to get this episode, so please, please cherish this.

Apparently, he inherited her eyes because, according to one source, her eyes changed colour depending on her mood and so did Woodrow Wilson's what well that's bull**** well you say that and I thought that uh but I thought let's not just leave it because I knew what your reaction would be to that so I actually did a bit of research here are you going to talk about whether they're greeny or blue or grey? Yeah, there has actually been some studies because a lot of people claim that eyes change colour according to mood. So quite a few studies have been put into this, apparently.

The answer is no, they don't. Of course. But the size of your iris and also the surrounding colours and the lighting can really make a difference to eye colour, how much light is shining into the eye, etc. Does your iris change size? Pupil, sorry, not iris. But obviously the different size of the pupil, different size of the iris.

Oh, yeah, of course. But yeah, I should have said pupil. That does make more sense. So, yeah, eyes can look like they change, but they're not actually changing colour. Apart from, interestingly, Woodrow Wilson. His eyes actually glowed bright red or bright green, depending on whether he was happy or not.

I'm saying that's true in a desperate attempt to make his life more interesting. Oh, it's true. It's definitely true. I mean, there's no way this can't be true. Especially when he's marking reports. Bright red glow. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, he didn't need to even turn on a lamp at night to read. Oh, check this out. I've got a lamp on my desk while I'm recording to Rob and I've changed the bulb to a red bulb. Oh, wow, your face is now glowing red and it's slightly terrifying. Shenwood Audio podcast. I wonder if the red light picks up on the audio there. Maybe your voice sounds

slightly more evil. I don't know what you mean. Anyway. Continue. I've turned it off now. Okay. So Joe and Jess, that's who we're talking about. Joe and Jess Wilson. They had two daughters, Marion and Anne. And then soon after that, they had a little boy and his name was Thomas Woodrow Wilson. They had two daughters, Marion and Anne. And then soon after that, they had a little boy and his name was Thomas Woodrow Wilson or Tommy. Yes. So it wasn't his first name? No, we're going

back to this tradition that we saw in the North of the children's middle name being the mother's original surname. So, okay. so Woodrow was born in Virginia, but his family was from Ohio. And England. And England. And grandparents from various other places, yeah. We'll come back to that, yeah. Okay.

Anyway, so we've got little Tommy, as he was known for most of his early life. And it's not long after Tommy was born that Joseph got a new job in Augusta, Georgia. So, we're full on south now. Not just Virginia. We're in Georgia. Augusta, obviously a good place. You can high-five

when you get there. Everyone was very happy. A lot of red hounds in that town. Yeah, definitely. This region was unfortunately known as the Black Belt. Oh. That's not going to be for good reason, is it? Well, in theory, it's because of the rich black soil of the region that really helped grow things, originally tobacco.

But in reality, it's not. No, of course not. It's all about the enslaved people there. Yay. Yay. Anyway, little Tommy was around four years old when he heard someone complaining that this Lincoln fella had just been elected and it meant war.

Oh. Yeah, Tommy rushed back to ask his father what does all this mean. But obviously, Tommy was too young to understand really what was going on. So that's going to be tricky for that family, isn't it? Because they're sort of northern, but they're maybe trapped in the south. Or they have southern... Oh, oh, is that the bad thing? I doubt he does.

Does he, like, keep people's property? Is that kind of thing? I don't know. What's your prediction here? You're absolutely right. They come from Ohio. They move to Virginia, but now they are deep south. So war comes along.

How do you think they're going to go? Well, to be honest, the fact they moved to the south could indicate they did that because they have sympathies for the slave trade. And by sympathies, I mean a blackened soul. I think it's more that Joseph was moving because that's where his job took him.

He was rising in the church. He was. He was doing well. Rose through the rain. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's see. Little Tommy asked about this war. He wouldn't have understood much of what was going on. He certainly wouldn't have quite

grasped that a few weeks after he first heard this, that a large portion of the country he lived in declared independence and then revolted against the government. He would have understood, though, that his father was fiercely defending their brand-new country. Because, oh yes, Joseph was very much a supporting the South.

He joined the militia, he served as an army chaplain, and he was involved in the inspection of Confederate hospitals. Generally doing the religious stuff that you'd expect in an army. I'll tell you what, though, this is beautiful ammunition to any of Woodrow Wilson's competitors in the future. It doesn't really come up. I think he's a bit too young and there are some other things they go after him for. I'd have used it. Okay, well, Tommy perhaps did understand that his family were not all on the same side like you pointed out this surely is not going to be easy for a family that grew up in ohio

and then moved south uncle james woodrow he was full-on supporting the south but tommy's grandparents on both sides uh were still in ohio and they supported the north so this very much did split the family in two. Then in 1863, the war would have become a very real thing for Tommy. Before that, he would have heard about it, but that's all. But in 1863, his father's church was taken over and used as a field hospital and a prison for captured Union soldiers. Now, how much of this he actually saw we're not entirely sure but he must have been aware of it at least. There was a tense moment when the Union forces led by General Sherman came close by but he

bypassed that town so it's fine. And there you go I mean that's about it for the war for Tommy. It seems to have very little impact on him for the rest of his life. He doesn't really talk about it much. It doesn't seem to influence his thinking. Repression. He repressed all the memories. Maybe. I mean, all he knew of the war, really, was that some people went to go and stay in the church for a bit. That's all he saw.

So he didn't wake up screaming every night, trying to wash his hand of blood, that kind of thing? Probably not, no. I mean, at that age, it probably seemed more like a story he was being told rather than being real. He would have heard that his side lost, but in real terms, to a boy who's still younger than 10, I mean, his life didn't change.

So he wouldn't have seen any impact of that loss. I mean, small things changed to a 10-year-old, because he would have been told that all these enslaved people that were working in the fields were now technically free. But as a 10-year-old, he would have seen very little to show him what difference that made. It just wouldn't have had much of an impact on him. Obviously, huge impact on a lot of other people, but not this particular 10-year-old.

Tommy's family, you might be interested to know, didn't own any slaves. That's good. I guess being a vicar, you wouldn't need one. Yeah, it's a sentence that sounds really nice, doesn't it? Yeah. Until you find out the reason why.

Do you want to hazard a guess why Tommy's family didn't own any slaves? Was he sort of banned from owning them because he was too brutal in the past or something like that? No, if anything, it's even worse. How can that be worse? Because that's just one instance of awfulness. And I'm about to tell you just something that's worse. It's because it was very common for the church to lease their slaves from their parishioners. Oh, so do you mean like rent a slave?

Yeah, yeah. That's how the church in the South dealt with slavery. We're not going to enslave any people because we're the church. We'll just rent them out yeah okay yeah it's not long now not long until we've got presidents born after uh slavery ended there we go that'll be good so yeah so tommy would have grown up with enslaved people around him but technically they were not owned by his parents but he very much saw slavery in its full extent and after the war he would have seen servants probably in a very similar situation so much so that the 10 year old wouldn't have really realized there

was a difference daddy what's the difference well these ones used to be slaves. These are servants. What's the difference? Well, we pay these sometimes, if we remember. Is it that kind of thing? As we've covered, the laws that came in after slavery ended actually

made living conditions arguably harsher for many enslaved people. It wasn't great. Anyway, this is Wilson's story, so let's carry on with him and his blissful ignorance, shall we? So, after the war, Tommy's parents started to think it's time to get little Tommy educated. I mean, they'd already started, but things weren't going very well. He wasn't picking up reading very well at all. Oh, maybe that's why his eyes turned red when he was reading the reports.

Maybe. He's very frustrated. Well, it took him ages to learn his letters. He just couldn't seem to read very well. They feared that he just wasn't very bright. In retrospect, looking at this and various other things, such as as soon as he got a typewriter in later life, he's improved his writing a lot. It would appear there's a good chance that he was dyslexic.

But obviously, diagnosing people in history is always very dodgy. But it wouldn't be surprising to learn that there was something like that going on. But yeah, he was a slow learner. Still, his father was determined that his son was going to learn. Joseph told Tommy, trying to help him out, how to write, how to form sentences. And what you're about to hear is the most, and obviously I like America. I study America. We do an American President podcast, and I in no way mean to insult anyone when I say this but this is the most American sounding advice I've ever heard when giving someone advice on how to form a sentence. Go on then. You ready for this? I'm ready. Picture them at a table under a tree maybe

outside on a summer's day. Piece of paper and a quill. No, they've got pens by now. They've got a pen. And little Tommy's got his pen in his hand. And Joseph looks down at his son and says, Son, when you frame a sentence, don't do it as if you're loading a shotgun, but as if you're loading a rifle. Shoot with a single bullet and hit one thing alone. Which is just amazing writing advice that that is

almost shakespearean i love it it's just great which uh possibly tells you something about the way that uh tommy was writing at the time just scattershot all over the place, leaving people in bloody heaps. There's no finesse. No. No. So Tommy dutifully got on with his studies. He was seen as a very sensible boy, not one to mess around, although there is a story that he would occasionally sneak out with the family's cockerel and...

What? Yeah, he'd sneak out with the family cockerel and engage in a little bit of cockfighting. Oh. Yeah, which sounds hideous. But that must be a pretty tough cockerel, though, because they usually get brutalised. Yeah, I did think that.

He either had a winner or he kept taking a new one and they had to keep replacing it. Yeah. Just Joseph trying to figure out where his cockle keeps going every morning. It's like, damn, the cockle's escaped again. Tommy, why do you keep bringing back bags of bloody feathers? Yeah. So, yeah, so he got involved in that.

Perhaps the war and his English mother rubbed off on him slightly because he loved playing games involving imaginary military units based on the British Navy. At one point, he declared to his family that he was to be known henceforth as Lord Thomas W. Wilson, Duke of Eagleton, Admiral of the Blue, which is nice. Duke of Eagleton is, again, the most American-sounding place name that you can imagine. Duke of Bold Eagleton. But you can really imagine a young American child thinking it sounds

really British. Regal and British, yeah. Which is great. See, Pheasantville or Pheasanton. That would definitely work better than Eagleton. I like it. He played baseball, a sport that had spread far and wide during the war as we've covered before.

Oh, it's rounders, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Rounders, but with a bigger stick and a bigger ball. He was taught to sing. He was apparently quite good at it. There you go. So there you go. That's his childhood life, really.

Playing games, singing, killing the occasional cock. Meanwhile, Joseph... Brutalising his cock. Typical teenager. Meanwhile, Joseph had been going from one strength to another in the world of the church, rising through those ranks. He'd recently received an honorary doctorate, a doctorate in divinity, and he was promoted once more.

This time, the family moved to Columbia, which is the state capital of South Carolina, where he became a theology professor, which is nice. Tommy was growing and it was soon decided he was going to go to college. And what with his father's honor degree and his uncle also working in higher education, the doors were open enough for Tommy to get into a college. So at the age of 16 he went to Davidson College in North Carolina. It wasn't the most joyous of places, apparently.

The pupils had to draw their own water from a well and cut their own firewood to keep warm. It was... Life skills. Yeah, really going back to the roots of America. Perhaps it's because of this. Maybe health reasons. It's never really been made

clear apparently but Tommy only lasted a year and then returned home. Yeah. Which, I'm blaming the well water. Well when you're mining for water it's not fun. Yeah, it's not good. Waking up at six o'clock with your two sticks, walking through the field waiting for them to cross.

Anyway, he then spent a year at home. He studied on his own, apparently, because he decided he was going to go to a college, but he was going to go to a college that was actually good. You know, one with taps. This was the College of New Jersey, or, as it was known to everyone, Princeton. Oh, that's where House is set.

Yeah. Well, we've come across Princeton before, not just in House. Madison went there. If you remember his episode, this was the episode where they froze the bell as a lark, and we tried to figure out what freezing the bell meant, and we couldn't. No.

Yeah. Well, I did it again. I fell into the same rabbit hole as I did before. I found evidence in the rabbit hole of me being there about two years ago. I really want to know what this freezing the bell is. So, again, I spent a good half an hour just searching everywhere I could to try and figure out what freezing the bell is. Could it be just simple, like, literally just stop the dangly bit in the middle

from banging the sides? Probably. That could be it. Probably, but I really want it to be more interesting than that. It's probably just that, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe you did it with like a, I don't know, a possum or something.

I still think they poured water on it on cold mornings to literally freeze it. Yeah. That's what I think. It wouldn't rain. Anyway, yeah, exactly. So anyway, we're back to Princeton with its lack of a bell. Tommy was accepted. He was on his way.

Princeton apparently wasn't doing too well at this time. The war had taken its toll because Princeton had always had a significant number of Southern students. That had dried up recently as the South had just opt and left the Union. So, yeah, they weren't doing quite as well as they used to be. And this made Tommy stand out slightly when he got there, because obviously he's Southern, and most of his students weren't.

He didn't stand out too much. I mean, Tommy might have been born and raised in the South, but obviously his family were either Northern or born outside the United States entirely. But it was enough, because Tommy, self-conscious, tried to lose his southern accent at this time, which he did quite successfully. So if you're imagining him with a southern drawl, I mean...

Y'all. Yeah, he dropped his y'alls at this point, that's what he did. Oh. Yeah. Started saying you all. That said, however, he didn't completely distance himself from his southern roots. One night early on at Princeton, him and the other boys spent a whole night talking about the war. And apparently Tommy got quite bitter about it.

Probably because he was one of the few southerners there and everyone else just mocked him for being southern. Anyway, the work at Princeton didn't really challenge Tommy. Apparently didn't challenge many people at the time. It was quite a relaxed study at this period of time in Princeton. Tommy remembers of a slow reader, but he did read all the time. So he made up for it just by reading a lot. Perseverance. Yeah, exactly. In fact, he loved reading, even though he wasn't particularly quick at it. He took classes to do his own reading, finding his own study more interesting, whatever's going on in the lecture theatre. And yeah, he just settled down to be a typical student at college, really. Pretentious, getting on with work.

In fact, a quote here, he wrote to his father, Father, I have made a discovery. I have found I have a mind. Which just sounds so like a student. It really does. Or he's attained sentience. Yeah, maybe. Maybe he just woke up one morning. Oh.

I am. Exactly. So not only was learning exciting him, but also sports. He took a keen interest in sports because sports were starting to become more important to the college scene. Although nothing quite like the frankly weird levels that you see today, where it's like football is just like hugely important to colleges. And it's seen in many places in America as more important than professional football.

Because a lot of them get picked, don't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's huge. My brother lived in America for a while. He got into his football and was telling me about it. It's just weird. Where he was, no one watched professional football. It was just all the college football.

That was far more important. It just seems very alien in England that that happens. But the game is quite unusual as well, because it's not like, because you assume it's like rugby, but it's absolutely not. No, no. It's far more boring. Similar-sized ball, but apart from that,

it's a very different sport, yeah. Yeah, it's like the ball hits the ground, the game stops, the clock stops. So if you've got about 12 seconds left on the clock, from that it's a very different sport yeah yeah it's like you the ball hits the ground you the game stop the clock stops so if you've got about 12 seconds left on the clock that's like half an hour of play i have never watched a game of american football you got into it for a while didn't you didn't you have a team or am i thinking of a different sport yeah i i did online quiz i got the oakland raiders are they good no no they lose? They lost a lot, yeah. But in the Cleveland Browns, though.

I had a team, didn't I? Who did I have? You had the Miami Dolphins. Go Dolphins. Are the Dolphins good? I think so. They used to be. I don't know if they still are.

New England Patriots, they're the top team at the moment. They're like the man city of Liverpool. They've got the word England in them, so there you go. That could be our team. I'm sure all the history fans that tune in to listen to this podcast are very glad they're hearing two

English men speculate on what American football is. But anyway, Woodrow Wilson, he loved it as well. He got into football. He didn't play it himself, but he really enjoyed it. He did, however, Woodrow. Woodrow Wilson. He loved it as well. He got into football. He didn't play it himself, but he really enjoyed it. He did, however, play baseball. He loved a bit of baseball.

He also joined a few clubs, including the Alligator Club. You don't get me alligators up north. No, no. The Alligator Club was an eating club or a dining club. Think the Bullington Club from Oxford. Bunch of toffs in a room eating and being toffee. Okay. Yeah, looking down on

everyone else. That kind of thing. Was it like the... because there used to be a club that Charles Darwin used to be a part of. It was like an eating club, essentially, where they eat rare and exotic creatures just for the fun of it. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, these clubs. I did look into it in Princeton. The Alligator Club was a precursor

to the really big ones that developed not long after Woodrow Wilson was there, which is still around today. And they are like elite social clubs. You join that social club. That is far more important than any education you're going to get at Princeton because you get to know people in the club,

and you scratch their back, they scratch yours, you're set up for life, that kind of thing. So, yeah, so he's in a club like that. You get a complimentary free back scratcher when you join. Exactly, yes. Nice. So anyway, despite joining the Alligator Club, as far as we can tell, Tommy stayed away from all the temptations

that are usually rife to university students. Apparently he drank very little, he worked hard, and he got involved in precisely no scandals. That's not being a bloody student. It's not being a student. He failed at being a student. That's what he did. He really did.

I'm giving him minus two for disgrace gate already for next week. It's awful. He did get involved in the debating societies, though. Yeah. Later on, in his senior year, he also became the editor of the Princetonian, a newspaper college.

No, try that again. A college newspaper. Yeah. So there you go. He just, he worked and he got his education. That's not much else to say. I mean, you've got to admire it in a way, but for a biographical podcast, it's a bit dull.

It's not great. It's fine. One day whilst watching football, no, playing baseball, his eyes suddenly glowed red and then he chased everyone around the diamond. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Probably. There we diamond. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Probably.

There we go. That happened. Yeah, and all in all, he enjoyed his time at Princeton. But as with everyone, it was all too soon before his father started asking him that irritating question. What exactly are you doing with your life, son? Obviously the answer is...

See, I know what you want me to say. And I will say it. Become a lawyer? Yeah, that's always the answer. Of course that's the answer. He's going to become a lawyer. But as we've seen a couple of times now, times are changing. The usual path of finding a law firm and an established lawyer

to give you a nudge and a wink through the door is not the only way anymore. Now you can actually go to a dedicated law school and learn the ropes that way. More prestigious, perhaps. Um, yeah. Might open more doors in the future. So Tommy decided that's what he was going to do, and through certain connections that he had gained,

he found himself in the University of Virginia, the university founded by Thomas Jefferson himself. This was a bit of a shock for Tommy, though, because he was used to a different pace of life in Princeton, because at that time in Princeton, it was kind of show up if you want, turn your work in at some point, and let's all head to the alligator club.

But here, you were expected to learn things. Oh. You were expected to turn up on time, and you were expected to hand the work in. You were expected to turn up on time and you were expected to hand the work in on time damn it. Gosh. Which actually for Wilson was fine. In fact he said study has made a serious business and loafers

are the exception. What? Loafers as in loafing around. Oh not shoes. Okay. Well maybe maybe those things you wash your back with. Yeah. Loafer. Yeah maybe those things you wash your back with. Yeah, loofah. Yeah, maybe that's what you meant to say. Yeah, Tommy found that the teaching was better at Virginia. Unfortunately, however, despite enjoying the work ethic and enjoying the university,

he hated the subject. It bored him senseless. Law was just incredibly boring. He wrote to a friend about how tedious all this was and how much he was far more interested in the study of politics. I'll quote him, When I get out of this treadmill of law, I intend to devote every scrap of leisure time

to the study of that great and delightful subject. And I'd like to mock someone who wants to spend all their leisure time studying politics um but then i realized i that's that's what i do that's me isn't it yeah yeah it is yeah anyway tommy was finding that uh he was having new thoughts about many things it was very much a growth experience going to virginia uh to with, his name. Tommy. Tommy. I mean, really? Who was spectables called Tommy?

You could formalise it to Thomas. Exactly. At least change to Thomas, he was thinking. But no. No. He's got a backup name, a third name, that might work even better. A bit of alliteration. Woodrow Wilson, perhaps. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? So he's told alliteration. Woodrow Wilson, perhaps. That's a nice ring to

it, doesn't it? So he's told everyone, call me Woodrow. And everyone did. So from now on, he's Woodrow. Another area he was dealing with, and I'm sure many in the South had to mentally go through what he was going through, and that is how to reconcile being proud of the South, where you grew up, where you were born, with the fact that they had just lost a war in which they were fighting to spread slavery. I mean, it doesn't look good, does it? No. I mean, we've seen in modern times people just pretend it's not about slavery, but it's very hard to do that literally just a few years after the war. Everyone was very aware what the war was about. So what do you do?

Well, it's not an easy route. Many took the arguably easier route and simply leaned into their racism hard. They were in the right all along. They were still right. The North had oppressed them. We should have spread the slavery around. This is why the KKK were rising at this time.

Because many leant into that hard. But obviously not everyone in the South was a hideous racist. So many people were looking for different ways. And this is one way you could have gone. Woodrow, and in fact I'll quote him here, I yield to no one in precedence in love for the South,

but because I love the South, I rejoice the failure of the Confederacy. He argued that slavery was rotting the country and that all the injustices of Reconstruction were actually preferable to living in a country that would live a life of, and I quote, helpless independence. So he's saying that the Confederacy was doomed from the start, we never should have done it,

I love the South, slavery was wrong, I'm glad we got rid of it. Now I should probably point out once more at this point, being anti-slavery, as Wilson just announced, does not mean you're anti-racist. Like many anti-slavery people at the time, the problem against slavery was not the racism or even the enslavement. It was the economic toll that it played on the country. And Woodrow

was very much in this camp. He personally believed that the future was in cities and businesses. A Hamiltonian point of view, he loved Hamilton. The musical or the person of view. He loved Hamilton. The musical or the person? Both. He hummed the tunes all day long.

As you can imagine, he's studying a subject he doesn't particularly like in the university that was founded by Jefferson. His views didn't necessarily go down too well. He's in Virginia talking about, I'm glad the Confederacy lost. Yeah, he stuck out a little bit. And he generally was not having the best of times in Virginia talking about, I'm glad the Confederacy lost. Yeah, he stuck out a little bit. And he generally was not having the best of times in Virginia. But one thing

was good. His love life. Eh? Sort of. Oh. Yeah. Potentially good, I should say. Because Woodrow had fallen in love. Yeah, the woman in question was called Hattie. Hattie Woodrow. What. Hattie Woodrow.

What? Hattie Woodrow. As in her surname is Woodrow? Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, she's the daughter of his mother's brother. Cousin. Oh yeah, yeah.

The two got on very well. I'm sure they did. It's not known how much Hattie realised how strong her cousin's feelings were to begin with. It's just very vague. All we know to begin with is that Woodrow really, really liked Hattie Woodrow. But then Hattie had to head home to Ohio

after she finished attending the nearby school. And Woodrow. But then Hattie had to head home to Ohio after she finished attending the nearby school, and Woodrow found himself lonely and miserable in the second year of law school. And then, after becoming ill for a while, his mother persuaded him to head home, continue studying law at home. You don't need to stay there if you're miserable. And Woodrow was more than willing, so he quit Virginia and headed home. He'd find a lawyer at some point to help him pass the bar, but he got most of the studying under his belt. It would be fine. So he did. He went home. He spent his time studying. He taught his younger brother Latin. He played with his young relatives. Generally just had a nice time with his family.

But his mind was still on the woman he loved. He couldn't get Hattie out of his head. Oh. If she was unclear to begin with about his feelings, his letters soon made it obvious. I quote, I simply love you well enough to love to write to you. Then came the explicit doodles. Yes. We do

not have her responses. There probably weren't any, which is even worse. And then, in 1881, Woodrow went up to visit his cousin. After some persuasion at a party, he convinced her to leave the dance floor and propose to her. Hattie said, no, we're cousins. So a devastated Woodrow left the party. So a devastated Woodrow left the party. You're pulling a very pained face. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that... I don't like that. What, the whole cousins thing? I mean, you can't help, I guess, but... We're definitely in taboo territory here, aren't we, Jeremy? Into what? Taboo territory. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, we are Jeremy? Into what? Taboo territory. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yes, yes, we are. We're driving up Taboo Lane. A devastated Woodrow left the party. He'd been turned down by his one true love. He spent the evening writing a letter to her, trying to get her to change her mind. A quote, for my sake and your own,

reconsider the dismissal you gave me tonight. But Hattie did not reconsider. The next day, a defeated Woodrow waited at a train station, apparently with Hattie's brother, who I'm guessing... Oh, that's awkward. I'm guessing Hattie's brother was stood there feeling very awkward.

So, cousin, um... Awesome with you! Lovely of you to visit. Um... But go away now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there was someone else there as well. Uh, it was, uh, Hattie's boyfriend.

Oh, Woodrow did not make a decision to move. He was, he was dragged there onto a train. Yes. Yeah, it was, uh, Hattie's, uh, current love interest and future husband. Uh, this was the most awkward waiting for a train. Yeah, it was Hattie's current love interest and future husband. This was the most awkward waiting for a train. I picture brother and fiancé, future fiancé either side of Woodrow.

Yeah. Pinned arms waiting for the train. So Woodrow, you're going to get on this train and you're never going to return. Is that clear? Except for Christmas. We'll send you a card at Christmas and get on the train. Yeah, a bitter Woodrow wrote a couple of years later

that he was mistaken in thinking that Hattie could even love anyone. He did not take this well. So, there you go. To mend his broken heart, Woodrow threw himself into his passion, which was political research. I shouldn't mock. I'd do a history podcast. Now, he was, unlike many we've covered, however, who used being a lawyer to get into politics or just fan into politics due to their military career. Woodrow was obsessed with politics but he didn't want to do it. He wanted to study it. He didn't want to be a politician.

He just wanted to... Well he makes a catastrophic choice in the future though. He doesn't want to be in politics. He just made a mistake one day. Went through the wrong door. Signed the wrong bit of paper. Yeah exactly. Yeah so he wrote a lot about the function of the US government and comparing it in particular to the British government and how the US government could learn a thing or two from the British government which

went down well in some areas but in other areas certainly didn't but yeah he started writing some books then somewhat resigned he started writing some books. Then, somewhat resigned, he started up a law firm in Atlanta. One of his classmates in Virginia was starting up there and invited his friend Woodrow to share the office. I've got an office.

Want to be a lawyer with me? Sounds fun. Yeah, exactly. It was time to do the lawyer thing. So he moved, he set up, he took and passed the Georgia Bar. He was a lawyer, but his heart was never in it. He did not like the move. He did not like the job.

His father wrote to him several times, essentially saying, look, everyone hates being a lawyer for the first few years. Listen to Totalus Rancium, the president series. Every one of them hated it to begin with, but eventually they find their feet. A big case comes along, or maybe just an opportunity somewhere. Just stick it out for five years. It will work out. Gravy train from then on.

But Woodrow could not force himself to enjoy where he was or what he was doing. He hated the fact that everyone was always obsessed with money and capital building, which is interesting because, as I said, he was a full-on Hamiltonian. He liked the idea of business, but it would appear in practicality

when he actually started being a lawyer, he just found it distasteful that everyone around him was always talking about how best to make money out of this legal situation. In fact, I'll quote him here. The practice of law, when conducted for the purpose of gain, is antagonistic to the best interests of the intellectual life.

Who can lead an intellectual life in ignorant Georgia? So, he's not happy. No. Sounds like a not happy. No. Sounds like a damned socialist as well, which isn't like capitalism. Well, it's interesting we see this little spark in him because he's certainly not a socialist.

But, yeah, we see this slight distaste to the idea of just making capital off other people's suffering, which you'd like to say would be a common aspect of people's humanity, but yeah. Anyway, a year after setting off on his career in law, Woodrow abandoned it. He knew that in his heart, he did not want to do this. What he wanted to do was study politics. And how could he do that as a job? Easy, become a professor. He would go to John Hopkins and he would do a postgraduate study. It was also around this time

when he decided to change his career course that he also met someone who would change his life in a very different way. This was a woman named Ellen Louise. Was she sister, second cousin? Ellen Louise Axon, you'll be pleased to know. No relation whatsoever. She was first seen by Woodrow in a church.

She was the daughter of the reverend who was there. This was a church that was near his parents because his parents were currently living in Rome, Georgia. Joseph and Jess only moved to places where they could high-five, clearly. So Woodrow was visiting when he attended a service, and

apparently he spent the service focusing more on the Reverend's daughter than the Reverend. Just wishing he got his cockerel with him. He approached Ellen and her father after the service, focusing more on the reverend's daughter than the reverend. Just wishing I had his cockerel with him. Yeah. He approached Ellen and her father after the service and then visited them sooner after. And this courtship went a lot better than his previous one.

Good. Wilson later described one of their first talks together. Our quote, passion had pretty much gotten the better of me by the time we had climbed to the top of the hill so they went on walks and uh wilson felt very passionate shall we say i'm not entirely sure what passion got the better of me means in this day and age it probably meant he was almost tempted to suggest that they hold hands uh but who knows maybe they did it in a bush. The feeling was mutual, apparently.

Ellen wrote a letter about little glows and thrills of admiration tingling out of her fingertips. Which sounds magical. Anyway, Wilson planned to propose, which was nice, but the plan went to wry, unfortunately, because

he was with his parents at this point, but his parents had moved once more and now were in North Carolina. And Wilson had arranged to meet up with Ellen so he could pop the question. So Ellen had come all the way to visit, but then had received news that her father was not well, so she'd have to cut her trip short. She sent a letter to Woodrow explaining all this, but the letter got lost in the post. So she just didn't arrive. Then, as she was waiting for her train in the hotel lobby, Woodrow just happened to walk past the hotel

and recognised the way that the woman in the hotel lobby had her hair up. Hang on, I recognise that hairstyle. So he popped in the hotel. It's like, oh, what are you doing here? Which sounds lovely, doesn't it? It's like, oh, could have gone wrong, fated to be. This also could just be

Ellen deciding that she's going to go home because she knew he was going to propose and then got caught. Oh dear. That's just speculation, though. Apparently that's not true. I've not read that anywhere. That was just what I thought. Anyway, they went on a walk. He proposed. She

said yes. So there you go. They're engaged. It was a very excited Woodrow Wilson, therefore, who started his postgraduate study at John Hopkins in Baltimore. Yeah. Now Hopkins at this time was a brand new school, mainly filled with young men obtaining

their PhDs. Only been open less than a decade at this time, was a brand new school, mainly filled with young men obtaining their PhDs, only being open for less than a decade at this point. Most of the men there were from the North, and Wilson soon developed a nickname, The Colonel, due to his Southerness. So again, he's in the Norman Institute. Howdy. Yeah.

People constantly talk about him being Southern all the time. Unfortunately for Wilson, he was soon chafing at Hopkins. This episode's a lot more sexual than I was expecting it to be. I'm going to be honest. Not in that way. Chafing as in socially. Oh. It's not new trousers.

All right. Yeah. The school was a new school, and it was based on the German model of education. Essentially, get in there, get the facts, present the ideas in a clear way as possible. Just dump the facts, basically. Leave your emotions at the door.

A knowledge downloader. Exactly. But I'll quote Wilson here, Style is not so much studied here. Ideas are supposed to be everything. Now, when Wilson imagined his studying politics, he had always imagined writing great works, like the ones that he had grown up reading,

which had flair and style. They explored the world of politics. They took you on a journey. Here, he was just being taught just the facts. Write down the facts. It just really wasn't what he was after. You could just copy out a textbook. Yeah.

It's the same thing, isn't it? It just wasn't his idea of studying politics. He also didn't particularly get on with his tutors. So soon he was finding solace in his fiancée. Many letters passed between Ellen and Woodrow at this point, full of love going both ways. They seemed to have a very good long-distance relationship going. After a while at Hopkins, however, Wilson finally starts to find his stride.

He started writing about the Constitution in length, in the style that he wanted to, damn it. And at least one of the professors there gave approval. It's not how we usually do it, but go ahead. So he starts to find his feet, but this was interrupted with some bad news because in 1884, Wilson rushed off to visit Ellen, because Ellen's father's health problems had gotten

worse. Now these weren't physical, these were mental health problems. Oh. Yeah. Depression or... Oh, well, it's unclear what he was suffering from, but what is clear in the 1880s is what you do with someone who's suffering from mental

health problems. Oh, put them in an asylum. Oh yeah, that's what happened. He was placed in an insane asylum. Ellen obviously very distressed. This is going to be awful. There's no way that this could be anything other than horrific. So Woodrow comforted Ellen for a while, but then had to get back to his studies.

He was determined that his recent writings were going to be published as a book, so he could gain some money so he could wed Ellen. She was in bits, and he wanted to comfort her. So for the next year, he worked hard on his writing. He was going to make his money through this book. Halfway through the year, however, he received some news. Ellen's father had died suddenly in the asylum.

Most likely suicide. If not suicide, possibly even worse. What's worse? Abuse. I mean, I just don't even want to go into what happened in those asylums.

Ellen, understandablyably fell to bits, writing to Wilson that sometimes she wished that she could go to sleep and never wake up again. So Wilson again rushed down to Georgia to see her for a couple of weeks. But there was a silver lining. With her father being dead, Ellen and one of her brothers inherited the money. An excited Ellen suddenly realised she was now free to go to New York and study to be a painter at the Art Student League, something that she wasn't able to do before.

But suddenly she was a lot freer. Do you think she realised it's half way through the funeral? Yes! It's a bit better half way through with him. Sorry, I just remembered a nice childhood memory. They just start, like, grinning throughout the entire service. Yeah. Well, she was happy about this.

She loved to paint. She loved the arts. The idea of going to New York, where, I mean, the cultural centre of America, according to many, it would just be amazing. Wilson was less sure about Ellen going to New York to study to paint. He was finding his work very hard, and he had set his sights on an early marriage. Let's get married as soon as possible. He really, really, really thought it was a good idea that they get wed as soon as possible. And Ellen going to art school would delay that by at least a year. In fact, he wrote to Ellen

about a possible postponement. I cannot live to work at my best until I have not your love only, but yourself, your companionship as well. This is the 1880s. I mean, he is essentially just begging her. Yeah. Because he is a very frustrated man at this point. I've had enough of the chickens. Yeah.

Fortunately, however, his frustrations did not win out and Ellen did get to head to New York and enjoyed being an art student in a city full of galleries and museums and had a nice time, which is good. In late 1884, Wilson submitted a manuscript from all the writing he'd been doing and it was accepted by a publisher. And then by January 1885, it was released. He had a book out, and it was very well received. Congressional Government was its title. Now, this is hardly a bedtime read, even for someone like me who actually finds this stuff interesting. Sounds like a page turner. Well, it wasn't. But for those who it was designed for, they were very impressed by the works of this youngster. In fact, it stayed for the next 30 years. It was used as a textbook in the country.

It was very well received. In it, he discussed the need to amend the Constitution, to move the United States government to a more parliamentary form of government, to merge the executive and the legislative branches closer together. He also talked about the cabinet that the president formed should draw from a pool of senators rather than just being whoever he wanted. So basically talking about making some quite sweeping amendments to the way the government worked. However, despite the good news of his book doing well, he was still hating the study. So he decided that he was not going to go for a doctorate.

That was going to be too much. He just could not do it anymore. He was worn out. Instead, he would finish his graduate course and then he'd find a job. You don't need a doctorate to become a professor. You can go and teach. Now, he had considered quitting his studies and finding a job before Ellen's father died, leaving the money. But the only opportunity was in a co-educational university in Arkansas. Now, Wilson didn't like the idea of co-education facilities.

Boys and girls should not mix with their education, was his view. Well, they've got cooties. Exactly. So he was quite pleased when this didn't come to pass and Ellen came into some money. However, he was now looking once more for a job and he had to reassess his views on female

education. Yeah, is that down, do you think, to just basic 1800s misogyny or just... Yes. Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. I mean, other factors play a part, but yes, this is just full-on

misogyny, that's what it is. Wonderful. Now, ideally, he wanted to go and teach in Princeton, that's where he wanted to teach, obviously, that's where he had gone when he was younger, but there were no openings. Instead, Bryan Moore College was a brand new college for girls. And they were opening up and they were looking for teachers. And Wilson thought, okay, maybe I could do this. Ellen wrote to her fiancé asking him whether there was much to be gained from teaching girls,

which gives you an interesting insight to Ellen. Wilson insisted that he had no problem with teaching girls. Girls can get a higher education. They obviously are more than capable of learning. It was simply the idea of co-education facilities that he objected to. You shouldn't mix them together. Keep them nice and separate separate you've got girls learning and you've got boys learning men needed to be taught things and women if they wanted to could could get an education do you think woodrunner's that's but i can teach knitting and sewing i'm sure it's fine oh no no he was he was off to do it

must be easy he was off to teach history and politics um yeah uh but uh it he did admit also that he would rather teach boys uh but this would do for now was essentially the attitude so with the job lined up um it was at last time woodrow and ellen wed in 1885 in georgia it was a very somber affair out of respect for for Ellen's father being dead, and Ellen's grandfather and Woodrow's father jointly performed the service. Remember, both families were from the cloth. Is that a saying?

In the cloth? Had a cloth? Of the cloth. Cloth was involved. Yeah, some sort of blanket. Anyway, they got married. Nine months later, the first of their three daughters was born. And the Wilsons moved to the new college.

Wilson taught ancient Greek and ancient Roman history, as well as American history and political science. So he would have loved this podcast. There's no way he wouldn't have. Now, up until this point in his life, I should probably point out, probably should point it out at the start, to be honest, Wilson had a very large, glamorous, flowing moustache. So he's got like a full-on tache at this point. Yeah, yeah. Big, big. Taft style. I'd argue better. It's like big and bushy and flowing. Better? In some ways,

yeah. Are there any photographs? Of a young Wilson? Yes, there will be. Look one up. With a tash? With a tash, yeah. Let's type the same thing into Google and then we'll get the same images. What are you typing? Woodrow Wilson moustache. Yeah, yeah, you've got it. Yes.

I've got a picture of Nikola Tesla, but this looks like it could be... Yeah, here we go. Yeah, yeah. Have you... Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, look at that.

It's a comparison one. Yeah, yeah, that's what I've got. Him when he's older and he's the president and one when he's younger. Yeah, oh, look at that. Oh, a comparison one. Yeah, yeah, that's what I've got. Him when he's older and he's the president and one when he's younger. Yeah, oh, look at that. Oh, it is a serious... It's flowing like a river. Serious moustache.

I mean, we have not seen a moustache like that yet. It is... It's like a walrus. It's seriously good. So now we've spent, frankly, embarrassingly long time just looking up pictures of his moustache, which I will probably cut out a fair portion of. I now have to tell you, sadly,

that this is the point that he shaves it off. Oh, mother... Why? Apparently his students couldn't understand him through the moustache. Because of whistling sound. Words got lost in the moustache.

Probably their eyes. Their eyes probably got lost in the mustache and probably their eyes their eyes probably got lost in the mustache and couldn't concentrate and eventually the mustache just started like acting like a black hole of knowledge and everything concentrated in the mustache oh that's brilliant yeah so i i should have started with the mustache to be honest so you could have pictured all of that with a mustache i'll have to go back and listen to the episode. Yeah. So anyway, he shaves his moustache off. He also didn't socialise much. It was common back then for professors to socialise with their students. The eating clubs would be open to students and professors, for example. But obviously, a girls' school, he is newly married with a child on the way.

He felt perhaps not socialised with the students too much, which is understandable. It's probably a good thing. The new family lived their new lives happily enough, although the living conditions apparently weren't great. Ellen felt like she had no privacy whatsoever

in the living quarters for the staff. But obviously they had some privacy because she was soon pregnant again with their second child. More bushes. After a couple of years of teaching there, the Wilsons then moved to a house nearby and Ellen's 11-year-old brother moved in with them, as did a cousin of Ellen's.

So the family grew quite quickly. There's a passion killer, yeah. With life a little bit more settled, Wilson then changed his mind about getting a doctorate. He decided he was going to get one. He was overjoyed, therefore, when he got in contact with his old professor, who agreed that Wilson did not need to attend any more

classes. He's like, you know what, I think you're ready for it anyway, just go for the exam, we'll see what happens. Which he did, and he got it. So, there you go. Dr. Wilson. He'll see what happens. Which he did, and he got it. So, there you go. Dr. Wilson. He then got a promotion. Perhaps Brian Marr were attempting to keep hold of

him with this promotion, but it wasn't going to work. The main reason Wilson had gone for the doctorate was so he could get the job he really wanted, which was a professorship at Princeton. And also, he was getting increasingly unhappy just teaching young women. In fact, I will quote here,

Lettering to young women of the present generation on history and principles of politics is about as appropriate and profitable as it would be lecturing to stonemasons on the evolution of fashion in dress. There is a painful absenteeism of mind on the part of the audience. He speculated that his students were simply young. I mean, it wasn't just the fact that they were female. In fact, I quote here, perhaps it is some of it due to undergraduateism, not all to femininity. Based on his future actions, it would appear that Wilson did not make the link between suffrage and interest in politics,

which for someone who spent his life studying politics, you would have thought that would be a fairly obvious one. Why aren't they interested in politics? Because they don't have the vote, maybe? His interests, though, are more sort of... Because his view is just sort of like, I just want to reform the Constitution. Well, that's what he thinks it needs.

He's probably not thinking about women. No, no. He's just gone over his head. His daughters, he has three in the end. They all grow up to be very firm supporters of women's suffrage. But they're young at this time, and they can't pressure their dad.

And we will obviously see more of this in the next episode, but at this point, no. He's just not really got any time for the idea. And he doesn't want to teach young women anymore. They're just what was the word? Painful absenteeism of mind.

Anyway, it was a very happy Wilson when he learnt that a spot had opened up in Wesleyan University in Connecticut. This was a boys' university, but it was also very far up north. Quite a change for the Southern family. But they soon settled in. Their house was much larger up there, which is just as well, because another of Ellen's brothers came to live with them and Ellen gave birth to their third daughter. Again Wilson taught history and politics but was more excited teaching boys. He also coached the football team and ran the debate society, which is nice. But all of this was very much a stepping stone, a bit more of experience until his old friends in Princeton could put a word in for him.

And after a couple of years, that's what they did. He was offered to lecture public law, which suited him just fine. So towards the end of 1890, the Wilsons moved and Woodrow started his new job in the university that he left 11 years before. Princeton wasn't quite the same as it was when he studied there. It's twice the size in terms of students. It's going up in the world. And here follows 12 years of him working in Princeton.

He was a popular teacher, apparently. He was hardworking. And in the biography I read, there were two long chapters on what he got up to during these 12 years. And I am going to spare you. Thank you. Because, wow, believe me, did that biography dry up at that point. You do need to know some highlights, though.

He taught, he wrote, and he read. He did what teachers do at a university. However, six years into his work, his right hand suddenly went numb, and he was barely able to use it. Wr writer's cramp was suggested as a reason why so he went on holiday to england to have a break his right hand yeah his right hand just just stopped working wasn't it was it wilson that didn't i don't know if i'm right you are remembering something here yeah wasn't he blind in one eye and they suspected he may have had a stroke I'll keep going I might have just said it

He went to England for his writer's cramp Is where we've got to But we'll see Due to his teaching about politics In one of the leading schools in the country He often was invited to speak at dinners Where there were prominent politicians also there On more than one occasion

He was talking at the same event as Theodore Roosevelt, and the two of them got on, apparently. Not like a house on fire or anything, sort of a house where the fire alarm's going off, but there's no actual flames yet. Okay. Also, he got more involved in politics. Now, obviously, he was always involved in politics because he studies politics, but more involved in the practical aspects of politics. Due to his background, he had always been a Democrat, fairly obviously, but the current split in the party was causing him some trouble. He did not like the rise of the populist Bryans

stirring things up. When the gold-silver debate was raging, he fell firmly in the gold camp, or rather the conservative branch of the Democrats. He opposed Bryan's radicalism. He wrote several things in support of the conservative branch of the Democrats, leading the progressives in the party to be very wary of this academic who did not do anything apart from study politics. He's more of a commentator. Yeah, exactly.

Who are you? You're not even a politician. Just be quiet. Sit in your ivory tower in Princeton. That kind of attitude from the progressives. So there you go, that's 12 years of his life. Trust me, there is a lot of detail that you just don't need to know. Teaching schedules and stuff.

After 12 years, we're now in 1902, Wilson had risen in the esteem of his colleagues, so much so that he was elected to be the president of Princeton, not like the United States. That would be quite a leap. Hell of a price. Yeah. So yeah, he's now the president of Princeton after 12 years of teaching there. And again, another couple of very long chapters that I am totally glossing over. Another couple of very long chapters that I am totally glossing over. There is a lot of detail on internal university politics.

If you're listening and you want to find out more, pick up the biography by John Milton Cooper. Good luck. There's a lot about the building of buildings and reorganising societies, re-evaluating the effectiveness of teaching, etc, etc. To be honest, I think it reminds me too much of actual work that I do in real life. It's like, I don't want to read about this.

Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Yeah. If you thought the tariffs was bad, believe me, this was worse. So we're just not going to go into it. You know, some things are so dull that it's actually quite funny and I can talk about them

and it's like, oh, isn't this dull? But it's also funny because it's so dull. No, it's actually quite funny and I can talk about them and it's like oh isn't this dull but it's also funny because it's so no it's just dull just grey white wash yeah just dull so yeah again I'll go over a couple of the

highlights though all you really need to know I'm picturing all this through a grainy drizzly day oh by the way this is the start the start of the episode. All the ticking in the office is going on. He's just in his office. Okay. It's raining.

It's raining. Yes, definitely. Occasionally, Wilson goes to stroke his glorious moustache and remembers he's shaved it off and slowly puts his hand down. His eyes glow for a second. Deep, depressed blue. A couple of highlights for you. he did quite well for the first couple

of years um but then he fell out with the dean who was a friend of his uh it was a bitter political fight that then followed for the next few years he also accepted money from jp morgan at this time and andrew carnegie uh for the building of lakes and paying of pensions etc again the progressives in the democrats took note of this what do you mean andrew carnegie is uh paying the pensions of the professors is that a problem that might be a problem only for people that want to run for politics yeah there was some unpleasantness uh when his racism popped out. It's always a shame when that happens, isn't it? You've got to tuck it away, Prof.

It's like the flop out every now and again. He didn't ban black students, but he did openly dissuade them from coming to the university, writing that perhaps there were better schools for the black population in the South somewhere, i.e. segregated schools. When pressed on the issue, he essentially said that it was a hypothetical situation. In fact, I'll quote him, no Negro has ever applied for admission, and it seems extremely unlikely that the question will ever assume a practical

form. So I'm not even going to entertain the idea. It is ridiculous to suggest. To explore this a little bit further, though, he did also write at the time that he thought that the, and I quote, the race problem in the South will no doubt work itself out in the slowness of time, leading some historians to argue that he was not, like, openly racist. He did want the race problems to go away. This, of course... I'm getting rid of the black people! Well, yeah, this, of course, This, of course... I'm getting rid of the black people. Well, yeah, this, of course, assumes a lot from the phrase sort itself out. I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean that he wants equality between the races.

No, it's sorting out in the quickest way possible, which is generally to just ignore it and hide it. I mean, it must be said, he was a fan of Brooker T. Washington. During an event that Wilson and Washington attended, Wilson said that Washington's speech was the best of the evening. Some of Ellen's family attended. They were more open with their criticism, though. They announced afterwards that they would not have attended if they'd realised a black man was going to speak. So, yeah. Not good. Anyway, he remained a conservative Democrat.

He complained to a friend that although Brian had tapped into something in the population, I'll quote here, the man has no brains. It is a great pity that a man with his power of leadership has no mental rudder. And then, in 1906, Wilson awoke to find

that he was blind in one eye. Oh, it was him. It was him, yes. He was diagnosed with hardening arteries and was told to stop working immediately. Get a more stress-free job. Exactly. So, Wilson took a break, but didn't quit, much to Ellen's dismay. But he did take a break.

I wonder how, in 1906 they diagnosed hardening arteries did they get one out and see if it shattered yeah they poked them that's what they did I don't know medicine's coming on at this point I was wondering how they wouldn't have had decent well they wouldn't have used x-rays

I think you're right I think they got one out and they held it up and they flicked the bottom and if it made a ting noise Ting! That's your after very hard one. This is a numb one. See? Noodle. Noodle. That's what you want. Yeah, a year later his hand went numb

again and it was decided a bit more of a break was needed. So he spent two months in Bermuda. I'm watching so much House at the moment that could be a that seems seems like a blood flow problem, which damages the nerves. Okay. I don't know, but it could be right. I bet you're right. I bet you're definitely right. He's, yeah. Well, he's in Princeton, so it makes sense. Yeah, exactly. Like I say, he went to Bermuda for two months. While he was there, he hung around with various people who were also taking a break. Mark Twain was there, for example.

They had a chat. But more importantly to him, anyway, he got to know Mary Peck. Got to know Mary. Well, let's discuss, shall we? Because Mary Peck was a socialite. She was in her 40s. She was estranged from her husband, and she spent all her time entertaining in Bermuda during the winter months.

Entertaining? Very much a stereotype of a woman of a certain age of this period of time. Yeah. You can very much imagine her getting on the Orient Express and there being a murder mystery based around her, that kind of thing. She kind of plays the role of a dead stoat or a fox around her neck. Yeah, I mean, we're slightly early for that. We're not quite in the 20s yet but this is the vibes I'm getting anyway.

Woodrow and Mary immediately formed a very strong friendship which would last for years. Friendship? Oh yes, and many very, very friendly letters were exchanged between them. Friendly? Oh yes. They more than once found themselves on holiday, or, I should say,

without their other halves and got to spend some time alone together. Yeah. She just said, oh, fancy finding you in here. She said. Yes. Yeah, we don't know for certain that they were doing it, but they were probably doing it. It would appear that Ellen certainly suspected

it anyway. We don't have the letter that Ellen wrote, but we do have a letter that Wilson wrote back to her while he was on one of these holidays, making it clear that he did not blame her for the cruel accusations that she had just made, for they were only natural, which is certainly not a denial. No. Yeah. At least it wasn't like 125's I'm sorry. Yeah.

Some historians have speculated that this was just a friendship because Wilson once wrote to Ellen about how President Cleveland was very weak-willed for having an affair. But this is a very, very poor argument in my mind. So what? Just because he criticised Cleveland doesn't mean he's not going to have an affair himself. Of course he'd write that to Ellen.

Yeah. I mean, if I knew someone who drank too much wine, I'd secretly judge them. Yeah, exactly. Stop me doing it. So, anyway, life as president of Princeton just carried on. More political fighting over a reform plan for the university called the

Quad Plan. The phrase the quad plan came up far too often in the biography and i'm glad i never have to say that ever again but it was hotly debated it's just like where they're gonna put a square thing yes i mean there is more obviously because you couldn't fill two i don't want to know you don't want to know i don't want to know but in the end end, Wilson's plans to reform the university failed, and the dean defeated him. Short version of those two chapters. For a few years now, Wilson had started to think that he should perhaps actually do some of this political stuff that he'd been studying and teaching about for decades now. So maybe it's

time to get into politics. Interestingly though, just as he was about to enter the world of politics, he seemed to have a shift in views. Now quite why Wilson suddenly started supporting the progressive radical wing of the party is hotly debated. Some point to his unpleasant political fighting at Princeton with the Dean and how that might have changed his thinking. I mean, he was up against some quite extreme elitism when he was politically fighting. He was against people who wanted things to stay exactly as they are,

thank you very much, because this is the way we've always done it. And Wilson grew more and more sympathetic with the radical wing that wanted to make society fairer. Well, he showed that earlier on, though, didn't he? Because he's talking about, you know, ultra-capitalistic society. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the ideas have always been there.

Equally, however, you could look at it more cynically. This is a man who had spent his entire life studying politics. He would not have been blind to the fact that the progressive movement was the one with the momentum at the moment. If he had decided that he's going to get into politics at this time, it was very clear which was the winning team. Where should I go? I'll go in that direction. I think, yeah, I think you're

probably right. I'm guessing it's probably both. Yeah, as ever, it's probably a mixture of both. You want an easy door in at the same time. Yeah, yeah. To begin with, however, it wasn't clear to many that Wilson had indeed started to sympathise with the progressive branch. And, in fact, this benefited him. Wilson, the president of Princeton in New Jersey, had obviously got to know a lot of the Democratic Party bosses rather well over the last few years. And they were more than happy to start suggesting

that perhaps Wilson would make a good governor of New Jersey. So the party bosses, the conservative branch, were fully behind him becoming the next governor. Now, progressives and the Democrats bemoaned the fact that the party bosses were squeezing in one of their own. However, after a couple of speeches, everyone started to take note that Wilson was saying actually some quite progressive things now that you actually stopped to listen to him, like the idea of standing up to corporations in order to get back the original idea of the country,

which is all men have an equal chance. Aggressives like the sound of that. When he says all men... Oh, as per usual, all white men, of course. Right, okay. All white rich men. Yes, yeah, definitely. The progressives started to warm to Wilson. The Conservatives assumed that Wilson was just simply playing the crowd. Clever Wilson, he's getting the progressives on side. So actually, a lot of support started coming his way, which is just as well because during the campaign for governor he was forced out of his job as president

of Princeton. I mean he knew it was coming he resigned rather than being fired but it was obvious Do you think they had the argument of you're fired, you can't fire me, I quit That happened with the dean, yes That's exactly what happened He'd lost the political fight in the

university. He was still very bitter about it, so he left. Still, he's got national politics to occupy him now, something he expressed as being a lot easier than university politics. Apparently some of the party bosses were quite surprised at how easily

Wilson picked this up. I mean, he was an academic after all. His response was essentially, you've never tried to be in a university and run it, because believe me, the politics there is brutal. Anyway, you'll probably be unsurprised to learn that he was indeed elected as governor to New Jersey in 1911. And soon enough, he was asked by the party bosses to endorse a certain man for Senate. We've done our job. We got you in.

Now start doing our bidding, please, puppet governor. But to their horror, Wilson refused. He was going to endorse the man who had won the primary to go into the Senate because the people had spoken. Now, at this point, if people hadn't realised before, it became very clear that Wilson, when he was saying all that progressive stuff in the campaign, actually meant it. He wasn't trying to fool the rabble. Ah, darn it! Yeah. He was asked by some about his loyalty to the party. Why are you turning against the men who gave you the job? And he replied that he owed his position to the people who elected him, not the party who supported him.

Nicely done. So then on, it was a very disgruntled Conservative faction who worked to bring Wilson down a peg or two. However, as we've seen, the progressive movement had been sweeping the country. A call for real change was high, and the Conservatives found themselves on the back foot. In fact, Wilson was doing quite well. So well that within the year there were some in the party thinking, you know what, this man

could be our next presidential nominee. That's quite a leap, isn't it? Well, it's not unusual for a governor to be the next nominee, but it is unusual for a governor from New Jersey. Usually it was one of the biggest swing states that they came from. New Jersey. Ohio, New York.

But a few things had affected the Democrats recently, which meant that Wilson could possibly be a good choice. He had a history of conservatism. Going back years, he'd supported the conservative faction in the party. Yeah. But it was now the progressives that loved him. So he could, in theory, appeal to both branches of the party. Yeah. nominated. Now, as was usual, Wilson didn't openly say he was thinking of running, but his action suggested otherwise. If he was going to get the nomination, he needed backing from one man,

and that obviously is Brian. Now, Brian's given up on being president by this point, but he's still a major force in the Democratic Party. That was actually Ellen who managed to set up a meeting between the two men. She heard that Brian was in the area, so just invited him to dinner. Wilson was out of the city at the time, so he got a telegram through urgently saying, quick, come back, Brian's coming round. So he rushed back, and they have a dinner. Brian let Wilson know that his past actions worried him,

saying, I quote, you were against us in 1896, which, I don't know why that quote amused me. I'd love to tell someone that they were against me in a certain year. It just sounds like you really... You were against me in 2002. It just sounds like he was really holding a grudge there. He is holding a grudge. But Brian did admit that Wilson's work since becoming the governor had pleased him.

And who knows? Essentially the meeting left with, I'm not supporting you, but I'm not against you. I won't be your enemy. So with that, Wilson went all out. He publicly declared he was a radical progressive. I'll quote him, the so-called radicalism of our time is nothing else than an effort to release the energies of our time. Yeah, the word radical sounds scary, but we just want a better society. He even announced that, and you get the feeling he was gritting his teeth here, that Jefferson had the right idea

and maybe Hamilton had got it wrong. Oh. Yeah. He loves Hamilton. He does love Hamilton. It's his favourite musical. The Jefferson musical's terrible. Oh, it really is bad. It's avant-garde jazz. Exactly. Hip-hop for Hamilton. He does love Hamilton. It's his favourite musical. The Jefferson musical's terrible. Oh, it really is bad. It's avant-garde jazz. Exactly.

Hip-hop for Hamilton, jazz for Jefferson works in theory. It was a bold move. But the idea to make it improvised every night and therefore every performance is at least 15 hours long. Yeah.

It just didn't work. It drives your crowds away. Yeah, it just drives you crazy. It's not good business. No. Yeah, I mean, this went against pretty much everything he's ever said in his life. You get the feeling it's through gritted teeth. But Jefferson was held up as a hero with the progressives in the Democratic Party at this time, so he had to kind of say, yay, Jefferson.

There was a slight problem when it came out that Wilson had applied for a $4,000 pension paid for directly by Andrew Carnegie. Yeah. Is that per year? Yeah. It's like, what? By then, yeah. It's like, you're going to get paid by Andrew Carnegie $4,000.

Are you just in the pockets of the robber barons? Wilson had to point out, oh, I applied, but that's just kind of standard procedure at Princeton and I'm not doing it anymore and I'm not receiving the money on this. He had to backtrack very quickly. But how dodgy is that?

I mean, okay, it wasn't literally Andrew Carnegie rocking up with his checkbook. It was a fund, but yeah. Fund, yeah. Rich men paying the professors in the universities for their retirement. It's like, yeah, you wonder where their research is going to go. Anyway, it soon became clear, however, that many of the robber barons of the age were not actually pleased with this academic running.

Hearst, remember we've talked about him before, he used his newspapers to rip Wilson apart at every opportunity. It became very clear that Wilson was not a pet of the robber barons. Anyway, at last the convention season was upon them. As we've seen, the Republican one was very dramatic. This is the one where Roosevelt won the primaries hands down, but not everything was primaries. You still had the convention and the votes uh and the convention game gave the nomination to taft and then roosevelt stormed out and formed his own party fine i'm not playing then essentially was this the first case of like there's obviously two major parties now and independence will never

win even if it's a really popular person well this this is the only time uh in american history where a third party does better than one of the two leading parties. Oh yeah, it beats Republicans by quite a way. It beats Taft by more. Yeah, yeah, it does. Very dramatic convention. I mean, the Democrats could not believe their luck. What's that? The Republicans have split. Well, that's it then. We've won. I mean, it doesn't matter what they do. They've split their vote. Surely there's no way we can lose. So therefore, whoever wins the nomination is almost guaranteed to be the next president. However, for Wilson personally, this was very bad news because Wilson was seen as a possible candidate to pull Republican

progressives away from their party. If the Republicans had gone for Taft and Roosevelt had not formed another party, the progressives in the Republicans may have left their party and voted for Wilson, who was openly progressive. However, because Roosevelt had set up his own party called the Progressive Party, it's very unlikely the Republican progressives were now going to go to the Democrats. So what is the point in putting Wilson in charge anymore from a Democratic point of view? Come the Democratic convention, it would make far more sense to go with a safe pair of hands who would appeal to the Conservative and the Progressive branches of the Democratic Party. Let's play it safe, we can't lose. So it's not looking good for Wilson. And this is exactly what

happens. A man named Clark, who was the current Speaker of the House, was exactly that compromise, that safe pair of hands. He was a well-established party member who was liked by the Conservatives and the Progressives. Everyone could get behind him. So going into the Democratic Convention, he had won the most votes through those states that had set up primaries. Wilson had come in second, but it wasn't looking good for him. And then in the convention, Clark utterly dominated. He extended his lead for the first nine rounds of voting.

Clark was being backed by Bryan and many of the progressives, plus most of the moderates. It was looking pretty good for him. In fact, he had a majority of the votes. But in the Democratic convention, you needed two thirds. So he hadn't quite won. But if you've got the majority, it's only a matter of time. In fact, it certainly was because then Tammany Hall, the very powerful New York conservative faction, essentially threw in the towel, went fine, OK, then we'll go for Clark. And they threw their votes behind Clark. Clark was now very close to winning. He almost had two thirds.

He had votes from both extreme factions in the party and the moderates in the middle. The momentum's with him. But there was a problem. Because Tammany Hall voting for him actually caused the problem. Because Brian let it be known that he would not support any candidate that Tammany Hall supported. If the hardcore conservatives were voting for Clark, Clark must be in their pocket. So suddenly, Clark lost the votes from the progressives. Oh, no.

Brian then telephoned Wilsonson and let him know you know what we've met a couple of times now and you're all right if you announce now that you will refuse any tammany hall support i will bring the progressives to you wilson thought about it for all of a second and said yes yeah right that. Now, it was a very long and drawn-out convention, but this swung the tide after 46 rounds of voting. Oh, yes, a long convention. That's one of the longest we've ever come across, yeah. Wilson was selected as the nominee.

He was alone in his library when he got the call to say his won. He went to go and see Ellen, who was packing for a trip to England, just in the event that he'd lost. Which I personally think says something about Ellen's thoughts on Wilson's chances. I'll just pack the bags just in case. I'm not saying you're going to lose. But which socks do you want to take to England?

Yeah, Wilson came in. Well, dear, I guess we won't be going to england this summer after all he said i'd like to think in a smug voice oh i think he also went to twiddler's mustache with him damn it eyes just seared red and then went deep blue sorrow yeah yeah um and then the election happened we've already covered the election of 1912 uh so i'm not going to go into it in detail but yes this is the election that saw three parties vying for power uh the republicans were out of the running early on no one saw taft as a serious contender now if the democrats had gone for a less progressive candidate like clark perhaps roosevelt could have won this because he would have been seen as, by far, the most progressive choice.

Maybe some Democratic progressives would have gone for Roosevelt. But Wilson was able to pretty much match Roosevelt in terms of how progressive I am. So the campaign went on. Roosevelt got shot, remember, which is nice. At least it was nice

for Wilson because he got a break because he was able to say, oh, Roosevelt's been shot, I won't campaign against him anymore, which made him look really magnanimous, but actually meant he got to have a break because he was really worn out by that point. Roosevelt apparently was quite annoyed by that political move. And yeah, the campaign rolled on. A couple of of issues race relations uh many of the black population actually saw wilson as a real change for the democratic party really our quote here he will not dismiss black men from office he will remember that the negro in the united states has a right to be heard wrote the editor of Crisis, a magazine of the National Association for the

Advancement of Coloured People. You're grimacing. Well, nothing in his past suggests that is going to be the case. Nothing publicly, nothing out loud. Yeah. Opinions will change, let's just say that. But at this time, this is the first time really where we start to see some of the black population starting to go, you know, maybe the Democrats aren't the party of slavery in the Civil War anymore. Maybe they've changed. Remember, Roosevelt got into some hot water not long before with his just firing all of those black soldiers down in Texas

just because they essentially they were black. So Roosevelt and the Republicans had already annoyed quite a lot of black people. So is this the big, like, maybe since Roosevelt then, is this the pivot between the Republican Democrats? It's not the pivot, but it's the first time you start to see some shift. There were definitely bigger shifts further down the line, but yeah, we're starting to see some shifts here. Also, women's suffrage was also a hot topic at the time as well.

Wilson somewhat half-heartedly, it should be said, endorsed women's suffrage. I love it when women suffer. No, Mr President, that's not what we mean. Well, no, I mean, he just wasn't that interested in it, apparently. It just didn't really concern him. But the party realised, actually, if we say we're in support of women's suffrage, then maybe we'll get some more votes.

Not from women. Not from women, no, but you did get some men that weren't massive misogynists. So, yeah, you never know. Maybe they might throw a vote or two your way. Hopefully not two. That's not how it works. So, yeah, movement for women's suffrage is now in full swing.

We don't have time to cover it here. We certainly will in a future episode. This will be something in season two that I look forward to covering. But, yeah, just know that's going on in the background. Anyway, in the end, with just over 40% of the vote, Wilson, thanks to the Electoral College, wins in a landslide. 435 votes to Roosevelt's 88 and Taft's 8. That's an annihilation.

It's what happens when you split the vote of a party in a two-party system and you have something set up like the Electoral College. Yeah. There was no way Wilson was ever going to lose. I say that. Roosevelt could have maybe put a challenge, but with my retrospects on, as I'm going to call them. Retrospects.

Yeah. Which is a pun that there's no way I've made up someone must have said that before but it's only just occurred to me and I just amused myself. I'm going to say that it seems fairly obvious that the Democrats were going to win this one and sure enough they do. So Wilson is elected as the 28th president of the United States two years before the largest war in all of history breaks out. So there you go. That's Wilson part one. Actually, the build-up to the war should be quite interesting as well, because I know the US stayed neutral to start with. I probably should, however, right now,

make expectations clear, a bit like I did just before we hit Lincoln. We weren't a Civil War podcast, and we're not a World War I podcast. I know, I know, I know. I know you're interested, but there simply will not be time to go through all the ins and outs of World War I, but obviously we will discuss it. You'd need your own series of multiple seasons to do that.

Oh, yes, yes, you certainly would. But it'd be interesting to see the American view, though. Yes, definitely. The certainly would. But it'd be interesting to see the American view, though. Yes, definitely. The fact that the United States, if you look at all United States history, which we literally have done in this podcast, the fact that America decide to go to Europe to fight a war within two years of this point is just insane. There's no way you'd predict that.

Yeah, yeah. It is just insane. There's no way you'd predict that. Yeah, yeah. It's just crazy. Well, actually, they don't go within two years of here, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Well, I suppose they've been to the Philippines. That's far away. They know that they can find their way back across the oceans now.

They never would. Yeah. Hopefully they didn't go to Europe via the Philippines, though. We're just waffling about World War I now, so we should probably stop. Right, there we go. That is Wilson, part one. Thank you very much for listening.

Yeah, and don't forget you can download us on Podbean and iTunes. And you can follow us on Twitter and Facebook. Yes, and all that needs to be said then is... Goodbye. Goodbye! Should, uh, should be here soon? Yep. Oh. They're always a bit late, aren't they? So far.

I mean, not that it's late now. I mean, it's still two minutes. Well, that's according to the clock, yes. Look, look, old boy, about hat. No! But I just... No. We've just been very close that's all

I will break your arm well one minute till it's due yep did you have a nice evening after I left? Fine. So, I was thinking of coming up again at Christmas.

Absolutely not. Yes, well, I suppose... I suppose that's fair. Oh, thank God the train's here. Right, OK. Um... But it was... Yes, right, I'll, um... I'll be seeing you then.

No, you won't. Oh, that's the whistle. Thank God. Right, OK, it's going. Oh, that's the whistle. Thank God. Right, OK, it's going. OK, well, yes, goodbye. Yeah. Bye. Yeah.

Bye. Bye. See you at Easter. No!