American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 3.1 Thomas Jefferson

Episode Date: April 28, 2018

  This week we learn of the life of the third president up until his appointment as the secretary of state. Find out how Thomas came to write the Declaration of Independence, how he failed to ask someone to marry him, and how he often failed to be a decent human being while at the same time coming up with some fantastic ideas linked to freedom. 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Taurus Jefferson, part one. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And today we are on our third president, who we've kind of come across a little bit before. Yeah, he was the Dilly Dallery. Dilly Dally. He used to Dilly Dally. Did he? In France. Is he the one in France? Oh he was in France for a bit

Yeah No I'm getting mixed up With a guy on the quay Oh Franklin Franklin I'm mixed up with Franklin Yeah no Franklin and Jefferson

Are not the same person But they knew each other And we'll find out when Well there you go That's a mistake A lot of people make So I'm glad we've clarified In this podcast

Yes I'm glad Yeah We are going to be able To cover Up to his appointment as Secretary of State this episode. Okie doke. So everything up until then, we shall be able to cover in this episode. Do you know anything about him at all before we start? I thought I did. But you're thinking of Franklin. Yes, so no is the answer. Okay, let's start.

Jefferson was born to an aristocratic family from Virginia, the biggest and wealthiest of the colonies. Tobacco slaves, brilliant. Yeah, essentially. Over the days. Now, Adams was essentially a middle-class northern farmer. Washington was married into the upper Virginian aristocracy. If you remember, he met his rich widow Martha.

Yes. Jefferson, however, is born in that aristocracy. He's up there at the start. Apparently, one of his ancestors, although very distant, is King David I of Scotland. Oh. Yeah. That's interesting.

A little factoid for you. David I of Scotland. Oh. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. A little factoid for you. If you go further enough, or related to somebody, you know, rich and famous. I go back far enough. Related,

I think you've got to go back a good six or so years, Winston Churchill. Wow. Yeah, yeah. It's shocking when I found that out. Yeah, we did an analysis

about my family. Yeah. And I'm related to Sherlock Holmes. Oh, are you? Yeah. Yeah, he's buried near us, isn't. And I'm related to Sherlock Holmes. Oh, are you? Yeah. Yeah, he's buried near us, isn't he? Yes, he is.

Yes. Anyway. It would appear that the Jeffersons first emigrated to the New World from Wales. Oh, great. But. Yeah, they all spoke like that. Wales. That's some time before our story. The Welsh accent was probably lost.

Oh. Yeah, unfortunately so. In 1708, Peter Jefferson was born in Virginia. He did... Peter Jefferson, not Thomas. This is Thomas' dad. Oh, yeah, you've got it. Okay. Peter Jefferson did not get

formally educated, but worked hard to improve himself. He became a surveyor and a map maker, creating the first ever reliable map of Virginia. And it's still used to this day. Yeah, and people before that lost all over the place. People wandering around the fields.

Where are we? No, he sorted all that out for everyone. It was brilliant. Later in life, he delighted in telling all his children his adventures whilst map making. Wrestled a bear. yeah spacey the revenant yes in fact that happened to him yeah he was left for dead these stories apparently left a lasting impression on thomas something he remembered his father for peter jefferson was

also a magistrate a sheriff a judge a sheriff oh, he did all sorts. He was a very interesting man. He was doing alright for himself when he met Jane. Jane Randolph was born in 1720 in England. Her family moved to America when she was very young. And when she was 19, she met and married Peter Jefferson. Now the Randolphs were where the money came from. They were the upper crust of society. These are the ones that were descended from royalty.

Okay. Yeah. Therefore, on the 13th of April, 1743, when Thomas Jefferson was born, he was born into a very rich family. Unlike most of the very richest in Virginia, the Jeffersons did not live on the east coast of Virginia, but much further inland, what then would have been considered almost the western frontier, although nowadays it's in the heart of Virginia.

Very much still on the east coast. Oh, yes, very, very much so. But back then, it was quite far west. Couldn't even see the sea anymore. Wow. Yeah. Thomas had several sisters. Jane and Mary were older than her.

Elizabeth, Martha, and Lucy and Anna were younger. And he had one brother, Randolph, who was 12 years younger. So quite a large family, but not unusual back then. No, a lot of death. Yeah. Now the family lived in a place called Shadwell. However, when Thomas was nearly three years old, his father moved the family to Tuckahoe Plantation. The journey to the plantation apparently is Thomas's first memory.

His first ever memory is riding on a horse with a slave. A pillow under him to help absorb the shocks. Electrical. Yeah. Back when they were running horses on tracks for a while, trying to find a more efficient way of travel. Yeah. It didn't last. No, they tried steam power horses, but they just kept exploding.

There's only so much coal you can get into a horse. It's a 50-mile journey, apparently, from Shadwell to Tuckahoe. Obviously, this journey left an impression on him. He remembered it for the rest of his life. I guess back then, 50 miles would be like a seven-month journey. Maybe not quite seven months, but it would have been a long journey. For a six year old and his slave. Oh.

Yeah, as things were back then. Now Tuckahoe, this plantation, belonged to Peter Jefferson's friend and cousin, to Jane Jefferson. This man had died and the Jeffersons moved in to take care of the plantation and the orphaned children who their friend had left behind. That's good. Yeah. Thomas spent the next six years there in the plantation. He was bookish and he was quiet. He'd often go walking in the woods and along the streams.

He'd hunt, presumably with his father, and just generally do things young boys did back then. Sounds quite similar to John Adams, even though he's up in the north living a very different life. It's getting to know nature. I guess that's what Adams wanted to do, but he was forced to do work, wasn't he? Yeah. Well, yes.

I mean, this is before Jefferson's really formally introduced to education. Oh, OK. One thing he does love doing, however, is learning to play music. Oh. Yes. He learned to play the violin and would accompany his sister Jane while she sang for guests Became a very accomplished violinist apparently Imagine like his sister singing beautifully like, you know soprano sounds amazing him going

Gotta start somewhere everyone politely clapping start somewhere. Everyone politely clapping. That's lovely, Thomas. Kill the child. His father saying, could have been worse, could have got the drum kit. Ooh. Now, Peter, his father, being self-taught, saw the value of good education and started to think of

his son's future. So he hires various tutors to come to the house and teach his children the basics of reading and writing. At about the age of nine, the family moved back to Thomas' place of birth, and Thomas is enrolled into a school. Now, this is a boarding school ran by the Revlon William Douglas. Thomas spent most of his time at school, returning maybe three or four months of the year. So, half way in a boarding school, which apparently is fun or hideous. Yeah, depending on what you read.

Yeah. In school, he was taught Greek, French, Latin, and he took to his studies very well, despite the fact he hated his teacher. At the age of 14, however, sad news arrived. Thomas's father, Peter, had died. The world named two family friends to oversee the family finances, and Thomas was placed in a new school closer to home, enabling him to return home at weekends. That's good. Yeah.

His new tutor, apparently, was much better. He was a fierce defender of the Church of England and disliked anyone who was not part of the church, which irked Jefferson. But he did admit he was a better tutor than his old ones. Thomas spent two years learning Latin and Greek mathematics and the classics and he also spent six months learning to dance, interestingly enough. Ooh. Yeah. Like reggae. Breakdancing.

Breakdancing. Yeah. He could spin on his top. Oh, wow. Yeah. Is that a breakdancing move? Yeah, that's when you put a spin top down and you stand on it and it spins around. Right, okay, yeah. He was doing that as well as playing his violin.

That's impressive. Yes, yes it is. Around this time, news came through of a young Virginian militia major bravely fighting off the French in the Ohio region. This little nugget of news of George Washington would have had very little impact on Thomas' life. But just to root you into the now,

that's what Washington's up to at this point. Yeah, being a military. Yeah. In 1760, Thomas decided he'd learnt all he could from these local schools and he was ready to attend college, which I quite like the fact he decided this, not his teachers. He wrote to one of his guardians of the family fortune and basically said, yeah, can you send me to William and Mary College in Williamsburg, please? Which is the capital of Virginia at the time. I've learned all I can now. I think it's time I went to college. And the overseer went,

Yeah, okay, I suppose. All right. Off you go then. Now, William and Mary was the oldest and most prestigious college in the colonies, bar Harvard in Boston. So it's where all of the elites in Virginia went. So, age 16, Thomas and his slave Jupiter set off for the capital. Jupiter? Yeah, some of the slaves had interesting names.

You could tell what their master's hobbies were based on their names. Quite a few were named after Roman gods. Interesting. William and Mary. I guess that's King William and Queen Mary. Yes, that's where that comes from. So they arrive in the capital. Williamsburg at this time had about 1,000 free residents and about 1,000 slaves living there. So even though it's the capital, there's no really huge places in Virginia. No.

It's very rural. It's a town full of brick and wooden structures. Although it seems very small to us, this would have been a far bigger place than Jefferson had ever been before. So he was probably quite impressed with it. Yeah. Now, in a time and place where your name meant far more than your ability, education in college was pretty much optional. You would graduate regardless of whether you actually showed up for lectures or not.

Nice. So if you wanted to learn something while you were there, great. If you didn't, meh. Thomas, however, threw himself into his studies. He would have fun. Occasionally he would gamble and he'd drink and he'd play his violin at gatherings. You mean he drank at college? Oh yes,

he did. Shocking, I know. And he fiddled. And he fiddled. But this was all seen as good fun back then. We don't do things like that anymore. We don't fiddle in public. No. However, Jefferson was just not a huge party goer. He would study

for 15 hours a day. Whoa. Yeah. He was just one of those swatty kids. Wow. That's very sad. That is. That is at least 15 times more than we used to when we were at uni.

Yeah. And that was on a good day. I think we're in negative numbers. Yeah. His favourite professor at the time was called Professor Small who taught philosophy and ethics. Ironically, seven for three. Yeah, he was. Through Small, he was introduced to a very prominent lawyer called George

Wyve and also the lieutenant governor of Virginia who was called Fouquier. Fouquier. Fouquier. It's a hard one to pronounce. F-A-U-Q-U-I-E-R. There's just too many vowels. Fouquier. Fouquier. Fouquier.R There's just too many vowels. F-Q-U-I-R F-Q-U-I-R

F-Q-U-I-R This is how they spent their evenings trying to figure out how to pronounce his name. Yeah, so his talent on the violin went down well in social gatherings with his new friends, these prominent men. And Jefferson was treated more almost like a peer, an equal

than a student. So he's rising in social status very quickly. After two years, Jefferson finishes his college study, maybe because he actually did some work. Yeah. Yeah. His interactions with wife had encouraged him to become a lawyer. Just like Adams in Massachusetts, Thomas in Virginia had no law school that he could attend, and just like in Massachusetts, you're just taken on as an apprentice. Unlike Adams, however, Jefferson got on really well with his tutor and loved this time. He joined Wythe, copying out writs, studying the law. It was tedious and hard, but Thomas got on with it. However, Thomas had an advantage that John Adams never had.

but Thomas got on with it. However, Thomas had an advantage that John Adams never had. Wythe also thought that it was very important that an apprentice of his also learn history, philosophy and ethics to give context. So Wythe was all about bettering his students rather than just using them as a photocopier. That's nice. Yeah. Try and make him be a person. Yeah, yeah. So you don't just learn civil law, but go and find out who Justinian was and how he shaped the law codes of Europe. Go and read some history books. Go and find out what the world's about, young man. Nice.

Yeah. So Thomas spent five years studying under Wythe, which is more than twice as long than was common. Not because he was slow, but because he just enjoyed himself. And it's during this time that he meets Rebecca Burwell. Rebecca Burwell. Yes. Rebecca was from another very rich family in Virginia,

and she was supposed to be quite the looker. Jefferson was planning to go on a tour to Europe after he qualified and wanted Rebecca to wait for him. He knew that they would have to get engaged for that to happen, however. Don't expect her to just sit there and wait. So, okay, all I need to do is propose. They went to a dance, and this was the night he's going to propose. But he's so nervous that he could barely speak, and I quote,

going to propose but he's so nervous that he could barely speak and i quote he could only speak a few broken sentences uttered in great disorder and interrupted with pauses of uncommon length oh that's that's his own that's jefferson's words there that's how he described how he spoke oh i've got just got a bit of question for you, and here it is. Yes? Thomas? Are you feeling okay? Do you want to have a drink? Yeah.

Just really, really awkward. Oh, that's really sad. He couldn't get his words out. He didn't propose that night. The next spring, he was devastated to learn that someone else had proposed. Oh, no. And she had accepted. No. He threw himself into his work.

Oh. Yeah, he missed his moment. He had a whole year. Yeah, it's a bit weird, isn't it? It's like, there's nerves, and then there's the phrase, the next spring. It's like, come on, Jefferson. Put your finger out. Yeah. That's like, come on, Jefferson. Put your finger out. Yeah.

That's a shame, though, isn't it? Anyway, he starts getting into politics around this time. The Stamp Act had just been rolled out. It was hard not to be involved in politics in the colonies. Jefferson was in the foyer of the House of Burgesses when a member named Patrick Henry, angry at the British for this tax, declared, and I quote, Caesar had his Brutus, Charles his Cromwell, and George may well, and then the rest

was drowned out by shouts of treason by other people. Thomas was very impressed by this, however. I thought it was a stirring speech. It mentioned some Romans and that pleased everyone. Yeah. mentioned some Romans and that pleased everyone Thomas proudly British, he's an English gentleman but also very proudly Virginian and these two ideas start to conflict in his heads that's going to isn't it

anyway his five years by this point are about up studying under Wythe and he applied for the bar, he's going to be a real lawyer, now to get in back then you didn't have to sit a test. Someone had to swear that you were up to the job to a committee. So Wythe did that.

It's not just that, though. It's a bit more rigorous than that. After someone swore that you were up for the job, you were then asked a couple of questions, probably the most important being name. Jefferson, ah, yes ah yes wonderful so you studied law brilliant well thank you very much brilliant and how's your father wonderful yes so that's part two it's three-part process though so uh part three you then went out for a meal with your examiners. Oh, okay. Yeah, and you celebrated.

Jefferson passed this rigorous process and became a lawyer. I imagine you probably would have found why he did harder than if he'd just done a test, though. Have him go out and, you know. He wasn't the best public speaker, was Jefferson. So maybe he would have done. He was a bit shy at times. So maybe he would have found the questions of name quite tricky. But it wasn't particularly difficult. But then Jefferson, you get the impression,

definitely would have passed any test they gave him. He was very bookish. He threw himself into his work. Anyway, in 1767, as a fully-fledged lawyer, with arguably the best education that the colony was able to provide for him, he was ready to continue with his life yes now one of thomas's earliest cases was a father and son dispute thomas took one case and wythe took the other nice it's not clear but it would appear that thomas wins against his mentor in this one really yeah it's not recorded um but he was paid twice as much in the end.

So we assume he won that one. It's a while done. Interesting. Yeah. He was also elected to the House of Burgesses. A formality, really, for him, as everyone knew he'd get the post. Yeah.

He's Thomas Jefferson. Yeah. So there you go. He's in the House of Burgesses. As I've said, he wasn't a great speaker, apparently. He was hesitant. He was quiet. But he started to build a reputation for being able to write.

He could quill. Nice. Like, quill with the best of them. Oh, yes. He was well known for his elegant prose that managed to distill long arguments into short paragraphs. He could get to the nub of the situation. Like a Feynman, then.

Richard Feynman, a great explainer in science. He could make something really complicated and summarise it beautifully and really simply. Then yes. I thought you were just talking about a fireman. No, no, not the fireman. No hoses here. But yeah, yeah.

I don't know who that is, but I'm going to say yes. Yeah. Just like him. Now Thomas started thinking about having a home and a family. He's sorted his career out. I mean, he's...

He's lost his chance now. Well, no, he's still young. He can still have his family. How old is he at this point? He's still in his 20s at this point. So, I mean, probably thinking about retirement, to be honest. He's a Virginia aristocracy. But, yeah, time to settle down.

Yeah. Yeah. He decides he wants to build his own family home rather than live in Shadwell we don't really know why there are theories that he did not get on very well with his mother and wanted to get away from her and start his own family house

but that's speculation he's very wealthy and he's got plenty of land and plenty of slaves on one of his plantations four miles from Shadwell, he therefore decides that's where he's going to build. Nice. He levelled a hilltop and started construction on a house

that he called Monticello. Monticello? Yeah, meaning little mountain. Monticello. Yeah. But he took the whole top of the mountain, so it's not really... That's why it's little. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he took the whole top of the mountain, so it's not really... That's why it's little. Oh.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's either that or everyone living there just constantly drank limoncello. Oh, yeah. Which, let's say that. A little limoncello. Oh, it's good stuff, isn't it?

So nice. Yeah. So everyone was always smashed on limoncello. It's so easy. It's so easy to drink. Yeah. It's so easy. It's so easy to drink. Yeah, building was delayed, unfortunately, when a fire in his library in Shadwell in 1770 destroyed much of his collection of books.

Oh, no. Plus the plans for his new home. This would have devastated him. His book collection was his pride and joy. Around this time, news of the Boston Massacre sprinkles down into Virginia. Yeah. Thomas probably would have felt the loss of his library was more important. Those Northerners, they're always looking for trouble, aren't they?

They are. Yeah. Don't even have slaves. Fools. Still, building went on. And it's no good having a family home with no family. True. He'd recently made friends with another lawyer called John Walker.

No family. True. He'd recently made friends with another lawyer called John Walker. Jefferson liked his new friend, but he liked his wife Betsy all the more. Hey. Oh, yes, he attempts to seduce her, but she rebuffs his advances. Aw. This comes back to haunt him later on in life.

Oh, dear. Yeah. However, he soon puts this whole episode behind him, and he finds someone far more suitable. Now, apparently, Virginia back then was absolutely full of filthy, rich widows called Martha. Yeah. I mean, you could barely move for them, apparently. Washington married one, and Jefferson found one as well.

Oh, did he? Yeah. Was it the same one? No, no, a different one. I'll bet it's the same one. What a scandal that would be. That would be a scandal. No, it's definitely a different one. I'll bet it's the same one. What a scandal that would be. That would be a scandal. No, it's definitely a different one.

This is Martha Wales Skelton. I just think you go outside, you throw a stick, and you just hit a rich widow called Martha. Now, Martha had married at the age of 18, but her husband had died, which is a shame. So she moved back home with her son, who unfortunately died shortly afterwards as well. So she'd had a traumatic year.

Yeah. Yeah. And then she meets Thomas. She's about 21. Oh, she's still really young then. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll say, I'll say like a 60-year-old. Come on, dearie!

You got young widows called Martha. You got old widows called Martha. They were just widows called Martha. Middle-aged Martha. Yeah, all over the place. By 1772, Thomas and Martha were married in her father's house. And as they travelled to the incomplete Monticello, the worst snowstorm in living memory hit.

Giving up on their carriage, they carried on on horseback, finally reaching the single-room outhouse that was the only complete building in Monticello. Oh, dear. Yeah, when I say outhouse that was the only complete building in Monticello. Oh, dear. Yeah. When I say outhouse, I don't mean toilet. It was a little separate building.

But stacked the gills with limoncello. Oh, yeah. It was just limoncello and a couple of straw mattresses. That was their honeymoon night. Yeah. Now, the two were very much in love, apparently. They'd play music together to impress their guests. They'd share books.

They'd read to each other. Oh. They really, really got on well. This is a true marriage of love. Yeah. Which certainly didn't happen all the time. And Martha soon gives birth to little Martha. Oh.

Yeah. Jefferson also has a sister called Martha. Martha was a popular name. Meanwhile, Thomas was getting more involved in his role as a member of the House of Burgesses. And by this point, Thomas had decided that his love for being Virginian outstripped his love for being British. The various taxes had taken its toll on his loyalty.

Plus, just like Washington, being a member of the Virginian aristocracy meant that he was up to his eyeballs in debt. It was tough being a farmer back then, and the only way to live as he was socially supposed to, as a member of the aristocracy, was to spend well beyond his means. There wasn't anyone in the upper crust of society

who was not up to their eyeballs in debt. It was a problem in Virginia that eventually was going to have to be sorted out. Not by sensible spending, however. Of course not. Of course not. You get a short little short-term loan with like a APR of like £1,720. Yeah, yeah. Think about it tomorrow. Put the envelope behind the stack of limoncello and don't think about it. Yeah, that's what he did. And he then ordered a piano from London for his wife. That must have been so insanely expensive back then.

Yeah. A piano is bad enough, but to transport it across the Atlantic. I mean, even now. Yeah. So that's just one example of extravagant spending that he'd do, especially on his wife. Now, Thomas, along with some of other representatives, began to think that the colonies really need to work together if they're going to overcome Britain. So together they propose a

committee of correspondents reaching out to other like-minded politicians across the colonies. And it's around this time that news of the Tea Party reached them. Those Northerners, they were sticking up for their rights, they were. That's good. Yeah. Maybe they're not all just up to trouble. However, this was the beginning of troubling times for Thomas personally. His childhood friend, brother-in-law, and partner on the committee of correspondence died suddenly. It was one of his closest friends. Years previously, when they were children, they promised that the last to die would bury the other under the tree that they used to play under.

Oh. Yeah. This tree was on the land in Monticello and Thomas buries his friend there. But the deaths don't stop. Oh dear. Yeah. Close childhood friend. Dead.

Then in 1774, his sister died whilst out in a storm. Possibly hit by lightning, but we don't know. I'm a funnery fan, I don't know why possibly hit by lightning but we don't know i'm funnery but i don't know why death by lightning is hilarious you're just imagining a cartoon chart person like yeah stood in a field smoking slightly yeah yeah it was like that i just get hit you see like a skeleton through their like skin like they get up in the. Yeah, let's say that happens. That's more fun than imagining the actual hideousness of the event. Yeah. He might have been cheered at this point by the

birth of his second child, a daughter. That's nice, isn't it? Yeah, she was sickly and she died shortly afterwards. His father-in-law, he dies. There's a lot of death all of a sudden and all this happens within a year or two of each other. Really? Yeah, so it must have

been a really tough time. I mean, the father-in-law dying does give him a lot more land and a lot more slaves. Every cloud. Yeah, but it also gives him more debt. Yeah. Because obviously everyone's in debt and he's now got that debt. So, uh, yeah, swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

All this personal tragedy is taking place when the intolerably Gittish acts occur. Where Britain is just punishing the colonies for daring to stand up against them. Jefferson, in between all the grieving that was going on, wrote a summary view of the rights of

British America, which argues that people had the right to govern themselves. And this gave Jefferson a bit of fame for his well-written argument. And then the First Continental Congress takes place. Jefferson doesn't go to this one. Okay. Yeah. But he does welcome

the news that the colonies were going to boycott the British. Ooh. Yeah. So he likes the outcome. If you remember, it was decided Congress would meet again in a year's time to see how the boycott's going, and this time Jefferson is chosen to go as part of the delegation. However, before heading off to Philadelphia, news came through that the British had in fact attacked in Massachusetts.

The militia there had bravely fought them off. Those Northerners, he thought, always bravely fighting for the cause. Well done, those Northerners. Tally-ho. Yeah. Now, as we saw in the last couple of episodes, the Congress was at an uproar. Once the Congress started, it was quickly decided someone needed to go north and lead the armies. Jefferson witnessed John Adams from Massachusetts stand up and suggest the only person who has a uniform should go.

The one looking slightly to his left and holding that massive sword. The one coughing in the corner. Shall we send him? With his hand in the air. Pick me, pick me! Actually, no, Thomas wouldn't have seen any of that because he missed it all. Oh, OK. Yeah.

He was howled up because his mother had just died. Oh. Yeah, it's really not a great time for Jefferson, this. Yeah, as I hinted at, he doesn't seem to have got on well with his mother, but even then, I mean, it can't have been nice, and there was a lot of things to do when your mother dies. So he was actually late, so he didn't get to see John Adams, suggest that Washington lead the armies.

He arrived in Philadelphia just in time to see Washington leave for the North. So he got to wave him off. Jefferson soon gets caught up with what was going on. Now the North, especially Massachusetts, led by Sam and John Adams, were pushing for independence as the only way to win the war that they'd started. The middle states wanted to reconcile with Britain. After all, it's only a skirmish. Hardly a war.

We can reconcile and just think of the poor money. We could lose a lot of business out of this. The South, and Jefferson agreed, were mainly with the New Englanders. The representatives of Virginia all had their debts to think about. That's true. And had become infuriated by Britain's trade laws regulating tobacco. They felt they could make a lot more money on their own. So they were all for independence. Whilst all this debate's going on,

Thomas made a couple of friends, chiefly the 69-year-old Benjamin Franklin, the printer, writer, philosopher, scientist, inventor. Who is not Thomas Jefferson. No, Jefferson almost made that mistake himself. It's a common mistake. He thought he was looking in a mirror. Got a bit freaked out. Thomas, 33 at this time, looked up to Franklin. That's exactly what I want to be when I'm 69, he thought. I want to be a polymath genius that everyone loves, an intellectual respected by the entire country.

Nice. That's the plan. Franklin, whose gifts included making friends very easily, enjoyed the company of this young man, too, became firm friends. Also, due to their shared feelings on independence, Jefferson met and got on with John Adams, partly because they were put on the same committee. Now, this committee was charged with looking into

what independence would actually look like. It's all very well just saying independence, but let's actually get some details here. Yeah, so before you commit to a big country-making decision, know what's going to happen in the future. Yeah, at least have some kind of discussion, committees looking in the pros and cons, so people are well-informed before making a huge decision.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just jumping into it. I'd be foolish. Very foolish. Good job things have changed. Now it was decided in this committee that someone's going to have to actually write up the formal declaration. I mean it's busy work really, a bit of paperwork and we'll all talk about the important stuff. Someone needs to write this up though. Adams, do you want to do this?

Adams was very busy as we saw last week. He had a lot to do. He'd risen in stature, was one of the main people in the Congress. So Adams declined. So Jefferson was approached. Jefferson, you're good with a quill, aren't you? Do you want to write up this declaration? It should be noted, later in life, neither Adams nor Jefferson agreed with this account. Adams claimed that he realised the declaration would be accepted more readily if written by a Virginian. So he approached the Virginians and asked for Jefferson to write it.

Jefferson himself remembers that the entire committee approached him before Adams. Yeah. No one wanted to look back and go, what, the Declaration of Independence? Yeah, we just kind of went, do you want to do it? We winged it. Yeah. It's just not the look you want. Written on a napkin. So yeah, what needs to be remembered is that no one thought this document would be particularly important. People were writing documents every day. This was a huge National Congress. The concept of independence was hugely important. This was a bit of paper

that had to be filed away somewhere. However, it happened, and Thomas Jefferson was given the job to write the Declaration of Independence, a document that eventually would become arguably the most influential written in US history. Jefferson heads back to his boarding rooms in the house of a bricklayer and locks himself in for 17 days. Wow. Just with a quill, a loaf of bread, and a stack of limoncello. Ooh, it's a flown by. Yeah.

The words and thoughts of the document were not particularly original. Jefferson himself stating that this was on purpose, and I'll quote here, it was not to find out new principles or new arguments, never thought of, but to place before mankind the common sense of the subject. So he wasn't trying to do anything revolutionary here, he just wanted to get it down on paper, and he wanted it to be well written. Yeah, simple and elegant. Yeah. After a lot of work, he had the first draft ready. He agonised over this. But he'd done it. The first draft is done. The Declaration was a short philosophical outline that justified the revolution.

And it has the famous line, We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent, and from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Rolls off the tongue. Yeah. Borrowed heavily

from the philosopher John Locke. As said, it's not hugely original at the time, but these were the ideals that they were going to build the revolution around. This introduction was seen as a nice little literary flourish at the start before getting to the meat of the document.

A lot like the bit of all men are created equal. Oh, we'll get to that. Yeah. Now, the meat of the document was much longer. That was a list of things that King George had done to annoy the colonies. Just has the word get repeated. Yes.

Now, this was the important bit that most people were interested in. Not the sugarcoating at the beginning. This was the important part. Then there was a moan about Parliament and the British people as a whole for not listening to them. And I'll quote. Pardon? And I'll quote. At this very time too, they, the British people, are permitting their chief magistrates to send over soldiers.

So a bit of a moan. The people of Britain aren't sticking up for them. And then he ended with a conclusion that independence was their right. And that's roughly how it went. Jefferson, very proud of his draft. This was wonderful, he thought. Best thing he's ever written. But then, a writer's worst nightmare.

Criticism. Suggested edits. It had to go back to committee. And then, not just an edit, a group edit would have to take place. Oh no, with people that can't write. The first line of the second paragraph where Jefferson had done some philosophising was altered. It now read,

We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You've got to admit, that's better than it was originally.

Because when you first read it, that's not how I remember it. Yeah, no, that was Jefferson's first draft. You've got to admit, the committee did a good job of tightening that line up a bit. I mean, it's clearly... Getting the chaff. Yeah, it's clearly still Jefferson's work, but it's been improved. Congress also objected to Jefferson's paragraph attacking the British people. They didn't like that bit. That's fair enough.

It'd be far more effective, they argued, if they only attack George III. They had been betrayed by their king so they could revolt. They weren't falling out with their fellow subjects. That's true. Plus those more farsighted pointed out that in the future, when dealing with Britain, it would be a bit smoother

if their declaration wasn't littered with anti-British feeling. Once George III was gone, you could just say, yeah, we moaned about an old king you had. You guys, though. Oh, yeah. Special relationship. Only with you, unless we're talking to France. Jefferson hated every moment of this.

Oh, he did. Oh, yes. He was forced to sit and watch as they just struck out an entire paragraph that he had laboured over. Yeah, he found it awful. Franklin tried to reassure him that it's fine, this is what happens. But yeah, Jefferson hated it. And then came the most controversial part. Jefferson had written this about George III.

He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery into another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. So, he blames solely George III for the slave trade. He goes on to say that George III did this against the colony's wishes, and he is now using those men to fight against his subjects in the colonies. Yeah, this paragraph Jefferson had included to combat the fact that many in Britain

and in America who were anti-independence were rightly pointing out the irony of slave owners crying out for liberty. Yeah. So Jefferson's trying to combat that argument. Well, it's not our fault, it's your fault, you imposed slavery on us. Yeah, the line had to go. To begin with, most in the Congress didn't actually want to see an end to slavery. So should we just not mention this because our economy will collapse? Should we just leave this bit out? And two, this is such an obviously weak argument that it actually damaged the credibility of the document. If you're just going to lie, then the whole document kind of falls apart.

No one's going to believe that it is just Britain who caused the slave trade. It is definitely a two-way system, this. So it had to go. Eventually they were finished. As I say, Jefferson, not too pleased. However, history is pretty much on the side of the committee. It's generally accepted that the new draft was better.

This is not to take anything away from Jefferson. A huge bulk of the work is definitely his, and he deserves the credit. He just hated the editing process. Well, it's true of any book you read that's been published has been through an editing process with the publisher. Yeah, and I think it's fair to say most writers find the editing process quite painful.

Yeah, but I left that in there for, there's a reason. No, get rid of it. You can't just strike out an entire paragraph. It's all character building. There's no backstory there. It is interesting to think, though, if you went back in time and showed the committee how important this document would become that they'd just edited, they'd have been amazed. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that means you stuck a'd have been amazed. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that means she's stuck her foot in the middle. Yeah, it's just us, you know, me. I mean, independence was important. Yeah. But this was seen as the admin part of an important decision. Now, on the 2nd of July, Congress approved independence. On the 4th of July, they accept the declaration.

It was signed with no ceremony whatsoever by two people, John Hancock and Charles Thomas, the current president and secretary of the Congress. And then, over the next few days and weeks, copies were made, including the formal copy that has all the famous signatures on, the one that people show.

But that wasn't done in a big ceremony or anything. Jefferson, getting over his pain of the editing process, was finally very proud of his work. The 4th of July, however, was probably very routine for him. But now let's pause from the narrative for a while and discuss the elephant in the room that's always lurking behind any discussion

on the Declaration of Independence, which you've already alluded to. The famous line, all men are created equal. And how this links to Jefferson's philosophy. So far, we've seen one slave-owning president who was uncomfortable with the slave trade as a concept, but ruthless in upholding it personally. We've also seen a man who did not believe in slavery and did not own slaves. Now this is hugely debatable, but from what I've seen,

I would argue that Washington and Adams would come across as quite racist in today's society, but back then, not particularly so. It's very easy and completely understandable to conflate racism and slavery in America. Yeah. These two hideous things work together to create the slave trade. Yeah. However, it was and is I would argue possible to have

opinions on them separately yeah Washington was not particularly nice to his slaves at times but I never got the sense that that was due to their race more due to the fact that he fully believed that he had the right to own people Adams was insensitive

to the plight of slaves. If you remember, he compared his office job to being on a slave galley. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Insensitive, but again, not necessarily linked to race. That was just him being a bit ignorant. Yeah. And then we get to Jefferson. Okay. Jefferson is full-on

badge-wearing racist. Really? Oh, yes. He fully believes that white men are superior to any other ethnicity. That inherently the black population were just inferior. Okay. And so the contradictions of Jefferson begin. For example how can someone writing all men are created equal and write paragraphs stating George III had waged a cruel war against human nature in regards to slavery, be so racist? It seems like a contradiction. Yeah.

Also, Jefferson was, at this time, anti-slavery, whilst owning slaves. Contradiction. Yes. He was into slavery the same way Washington was. In theory, bad. In practice, I've got some slaves. Right. Yeah.

So you've got those contradictions. However, what you need to realise about Jefferson is that he did not want to free black slaves. Oh. He wanted to see black people shipped back to Africa. Oh. Yeah. And as for all men are created equal,

well, it's fairly obvious if you don't see Native American men and African men as real men, then they're simply not being referred to in this statement in the same way that women are not being referred to in this statement. All men are created equal just means all white men are created equal.

That's really sad. And very depressing. Now, Jefferson is our first and certainly won't be the last very divisive president for this reason. Should Jefferson's failings overshadow his achievements? Well, he's a product of his time, isn't he? He is

but we'll discuss that more when we rate him and how much that should be a justification. Because it is a tricky one because Jefferson is a contradiction and he's very divisive. Still, I realise we've gone down a bit of an analysis rabbit hole there when we're supposed to be doing the biography,

but I think it's important to know Jefferson's mindset in regards to race at this stage, because his actions in the future are a bit clearer because of it. Makes sense. OK, so back to the narrative here. In September 1776, Jefferson left Congress. He'd found the whole experience of writing the Declaration quite painful. He missed his family. Time to take a break. He entered the new Virginian government and was appointed to a committee that started to

figure out what the new Virginian laws were going to be. They're a state now. They need to figure out their laws. It was there that he gains a couple of new friends, James Madison and James Monroe, both younger than him, but the three shared many beliefs and got on very well. Those names sound familiar. Yeah, put a box around both of those, we'll be getting to them quite soon. Now, not everyone on this new Virginian committee agreed on what their new laws should be. For example, Thomas wanted to get rid of the law that the eldest son inherited all of the wealth in the case of the death of the father.

Interesting. Obviously he wants all the money to go back to the Congress in Virginia. No, not quite. Well, he said that it seemed too much like monarchy to have the eldest son inheriting everything. All right. It just didn't seem fair. So he proposed that the money be split equally

between all children of the deceased. Yeah. Seems quite nice. Yeah. Yeah. This did not equally between all children of the deceased. Yeah. Seems quite nice. Yeah. Yeah. This did not sit well with others on the committee. Or the eldest born firstborn. Yeah.

Which most of them would be because the eldest born sons were the ones that were sent off to become politicians. Yeah. So, yeah, not everyone agreed with this. A compromise was suggested where the eldest got double and everyone else shared the rest. Jefferson replied that that would be fine if the eldest had needed to eat twice as much as his brothers and sisters. Or we could turn a phrase, couldn't we?

Yes. He also argued against liberal use of the death penalty. I mean, you could get the death penalty for a lot back then. Things such as polygamy and sodomy, you could get the death penalty for. Jefferson back then. Things such as polygamy and sodomy, you could get the death penalty for. Jefferson argued that that's not really anyone's

business. The government shouldn't be giving out death penalty for that. After all, castration would be much better. Yeah. He's only going to go so far. He also pushed for a statewide education system, fully believing that if a nation were going to be free, then they must be educated. So he's coming up with some nice ideas here.

However, his biggest push came with the idea that state and religion should be fully separated. Jefferson, unlike a vast majority in America, was not particularly Christian, not in the traditional sense. He was a deist. He believed that God created the universe to follow a set of rules, but then left it to its own devices.

Jefferson very rarely shared these ideas with anyone else. They wouldn't have gone down too well. But his own personal religious views did help shape his bill for establishing religious freedom. Nice. Which declared that the state had no right to dictate what religion a person believed in. Now, on Jefferson's tombstone, years later, obviously,

he's not chiselling one out now, he had written on his tombstone the three things that he was most proud about in his life. Writing the Declaration of Independence was one, and this bill was the second. The bill failed to pass at this time, but it wouldn't be long before it was accepted and widely celebrated. All this hard work is paying off, and in 1779, Jefferson was elected as Virginia's second ever governor. Now, as you can imagine, the war dominated everything. The war's still going on. Washington's still running around trying to do things. So first thing on the

agenda was the location of the state capital. Should they move it from Williamsburg to Richmond? Richmond was far more central, further away from the coast, making it less vulnerable to British invasion. Also, on a personal note, Jefferson hated William Burke's architecture and wanted to help shape the growth of Richmond. So let's move the capital to there. Far better. And by now, messages were flying in from John Adams and the War Committee on the Continental Congress, and also from Washington with the Continental Army. They needed more funds. Virginia was the richest state. You need to start helping out here. We are really, really struggling. However, Jefferson and most other Virginians realised it was only a matter

of time before the British turned their sights on Virginia. They wanted to make sure they kept enough behind to defend their own state. Fair enough. So Jefferson spends most of his time trying to balance this problem. A tricky balance. He does alright though, because he's re-elected the following year, just as

news comes through that the British had indeed turned south, and they had targeted Georgia. And then in December, they finally arrive in Virginia, led by none other than the traitor Benedict Arnold. Ah, Benedict! Naughty Benedict. Now Arnold,

knowing that the capital was now in Richmond, headed straight for the city. Jefferson oversaw the evacuation, and Arnold took it with no resistance, but withdrew shortly afterwards. Nothing here. It was not long after, however, before reports came through that the British, now led by Cornwallis,

was thinking of taking the capital again. You might be wondering where the defence is. Why can't they defend the place? Well, they don't really have a defence. And Jefferson, in true Republican revolutionary style, was convinced that the people would rise up and fight against oppressors. Oh dear.

Yeah. The Virginian militia was on standby, but they just were not able to provide serious opposition to the British. No, you have like, I don't know, Chad with a pitchfork. Yeah. Hunter with a scythe. Someone with a spork. Ooh, ooh.

Yeah. You can do a lot of damage with that, though. Yeah, you could. Yeah, well, as Washington had argued for most of his life, relying on militias and the people, it's just not as good as having an actual army. No, because armies are trained to run towards the enemy, because that's their job. People run away because they don't want to die.

Well, soldiers don't want to die as well, but, you know, there's no incentive for them to... Yeah, yeah. They don't do a great job at defending Virginia, unfortunately. Now, the British sent a cavalry unit to try and take the capital by surprise. They almost succeed. Jefferson and the other representatives

narrowly avoid capture. The cavalry unit then takes Charlottesville and Monticello. No! Yeah. And then, Jefferson's second term ended. And here's where he makes a little bit of a mistake. What would you do at that point?

Your term's just ended. You've been chased out of the capital. Your home's been taken over. You'd go somewhere else. Would you go, right, that's it, my term's ended, and go home? No, because you're life's in danger. That'd be a stupid thing to do. Well, that's what he does.

I mean, he doesn't go home to Monticello, obviously. That's been taken over. It just turns up one day. Pass all the red coats, you know, waving, hi, telly-ho. I'm home. Martha. Oh, I see you found the limoncello. self yeah he goes to a different home um he just says that's it my term's up it's uh down to someone else now yeah not great many virginians not happy about this start accusing him of

cowardice some demand an investigation into the conduct of the state's executive. It's looking a bit embarrassing to say the least. Jefferson, however, was saved from this humiliation due to the Continental Army showing up with the French and defeating the British in Yorktown. Yay! I mean boo!

Conflicting emotions from you there. Now the inquiry against Jefferson still went ahead but the man who had set it in motion didn't even bother showing up. The public mood's changed. We've just won the war essentially. So Jefferson took the floor, delivered a speech

answering all the allegations against him point by point and then went home. Feeling a bit better and swearing never to get involved in politics again. I wonder what the first president will be that doesn't at some point swear never to get involved in politics again. That's true.

Because everyone has so far. Anyway, he seems a bit happier in retirement. A visitor at this time recounts how Jefferson would draw and write and play music. Oh. Yeah. But it's not to last. No. No.

Shortly afterwards, in August 1782, Martha becomes ill. play music. No. Yeah. But it's not to last. No. No. Shortly afterwards, in August 1782, Martha becomes ill. No! After giving birth to their sixth child. Sixth? Wow. Yeah. It looks bad. Jefferson stayed at her bedside for all hours.

According to one witness, Martha made Jefferson promise never to remarry because she hated her own stepmother and didn't want their children to have a stepmother. After about four months of this, it becomes clear that she's about to die. Jefferson collapses. His sister ordered the slaves to carry him to his bed, fearing that if he was present at the moment of Martha's death, it would be too much for him and he would die also. He was in a delicate state for some time afterwards, apparently. He roamed aimlessly around his land, sometimes with his daughters, sometimes alone. He burnt all of his wife's letters. The only writing he kept was what she had written just before her death, which was a quote from a novel that they both enjoyed. And I'll quote here,

time wastes too fast. Every letter I trace tells me with what rapidity life follows my pen. And I'll quote here, hand to bid adieu, every absence which follows it are preludes to the eternal separation which we are shortly to make. That's a bit depressing. Bit depressing, isn't it? He capes this parchment with a lock of her hair locked in a secret compartment in his desk. Oh.

Oh, that's really sad. It is. Yeah. Oh. However, life It is. Yeah. However, life goes on. Yeah. And he was finally awoken from this depression when he received word that the Continental Congress wanted him to join John Jay, John Adams and Benjamin Franklin in France to discuss peace terms with the British. He'd always wanted to go to visit Europe.

He wanted to do that in his teens, didn't he? He'd never gone round to it. Monticello had become quite depressing of late, so why not? All the black drapes and the newly painted black walls, black candles. He's out of Limoncello. Oh, yeah. Red wine. He's gone full-on goth. Oh, dear. It's not great.

Yeah, so he decides, why not? Let's do it. However, before he can set off, word comes through that amazingly, Adams, Franklin and Jay had already sorted it all out. Brilliant. Cool, you did it then. Not only that, they got everything they could have wanted. Yeah, they'd stabbed France in the back to do it, but still, a win's a win. Yeah.

Yeah, did it. Still, he's determined to throw himself into politics once more. He needs something to distract himself. So Jefferson went to Philadelphia to represent Virginia. There was a lot to do now that peace was had. One area that took up a lot of discussion was what to do with all this new land they now had. They got all the way up to the Mississippi from that agreement with Britain.

So what are we going to do with it? Many, including Jefferson, understandably hated the British model of a mother country running new land until, I don't know, there's a revolution or something. So Jefferson argued that new land should be self-governing until it reached a certain population size, and then they could apply to become a state in the United States. Nice. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, though.

Yeah, it's a sensible system. lot of sense though yeah it's a sensible system um he also proposed that surveyors should divide the land into individual farm-sized rectangular plots keep it nice and neat and the new states would have names using native american languages greek and latin so these new states according to jefferson should have names such as sylvania asenapia Metropotamia, Polypotamia, Illinoisia, Illinoisia maybe? There's a lot of vowels on the end of that. It's not Illinois. Saratoga and Washington.

These were some ideas of his. Yeah. Some of Jefferson's ideas were accepted. Some weren't. The names were rejected. Fair enough. Although Washington becomes a state and Illinois becomes Illinois, so that was close enough.

Yeah. Yeah. Jefferson also hoped that all these new states would ban slavery. Really? What? Yeah. As I said, he's fairly anti-slavery at this point

in the same way Washington was. It's like, in theory, it's best if we don't have slavery. Virginia is locked into the slave economy. We can't get out of it, but new states shouldn't adopt it. It's a bad idea. Because you're so reliant on it and getting rid of, we can't get out of it, but new states shouldn't adopt it, it's a bad idea. Because you're so reliant on it, getting rid of it, you can't do without...

Yeah, exactly. You can't be crippling it. You can either see this as Jefferson saying slavery is bad, we shouldn't have slavery. On the flip side, you could see it as him being horribly racist and saying we don't want anyone but white people in the new states. It depends how you read that. Yeah, that's not... He's an interesting contradiction as Jefferson. anyone but white people in the new states. It depends how you read that. Yeah, that's not great. He's an interesting contradictionist, Jefferson. This motion loses by one vote.

It could have changed the way things were done slightly there, but yeah, it loses. The issue of slavery rumbles on. Other things, though, he does at this time. He suggests that the US adopt a more sensible money system based on decimals. Hey! Yeah, let's face it, it's ridiculous using the system we're using now. Let's use a more sensible money system based on decimals. Hey. Yeah, let's face it.

It's ridiculous using the system we're using now. Let's use a nice decimal system. It's rejected for now, but it doesn't take long to take effect, which is why you end up with dollars and cents. See, why not then adopt that to measurement systems as well? Why are you still using imperial? I don't know. It's weird, isn't it?

It doesn't make sense. It's like, I do find the map of countries that use the imperial system quite amusing. And there's two or three. Yeah. Well, to be fair, we are. We're closet imperialists. Oh, yeah. We're not much better.

We still use miles and pints. Yeah, we formerly used the decimal system. But in our national curriculum, we've still got inches in there. Yeah. But anyway, back to Jefferson. In 1784, a position opens up. Jefferson was selected to join John Adams and

Benjamin Franklin in Europe to make some trade deals. Fantastic, he thinks. I will go to Europe. So he makes his way to Boston with his eldest daughter, who's 12 at this time, and William Short, his personal secretary. Oh, the 7'3 guy. No, different Short. There's many Shorts. time, and William Short, his personal secretary. Oh, the 7 foot 3 guy.

No, different Short. There's many Shorts. Oh, that was small, wasn't it? That was small, yes. Oh, yeah, Short's like 7 foot 8, I think. Yeah, possibly. Big weightlifter. Yeah. Now, the crossing was uneventful,

and in August, they arrive in Paris. Oh, first time. Yeah. Just like Adams, Jefferson was shocked by the scale of the city, the grandeur of its buildings, and the squalor and the misery of the poor. Yeah. Now, as it happened, he arrived in the city about the same time

as John and Abigail Adams came from London. He becomes really good friends with his acquaintance that he had before. He gets on brilliantly with Abigail, the two of them form a bond. Eh? No indication of that. Just good friends. No, I bet

there was. No. Bet they got to know each other. Well, there's indication of him getting to know others quite soon, so you wouldn't have thought if he got to know others we'd hear about Abigail. Let's just say it happened, though. Yeah. Makes it more interesting. On top of the Louvre. Yes. So,

yeah, Jefferson and Abigail at it like rabbits. Okay. Behind Johanna's back. Yeah. However, unfortunately, some bad news followed them across the Atlantic to break up this love affair that we've just made up. His youngest daughter, Lucy,

had died of whooping cough. No! Yeah. In an attempt to distract himself, Jefferson throws himself into his work, talking to Dutch and French ministers. Now, he gets on really well with Franklin and Adams, despite their coolness to each other, but he found French society a bit too much.

Now, remember, Jefferson's not a hugely outgoing person. So he likes to spend more of his time with the Adamses than going out in French society. Da-da-da-da. And then word comes through that Franklin was retiring and Jefferson would take over as ambassador to France. Meanwhile, Adams would become ambassador to Britain. Yeah.

So Franklin leaves and Adams goes to Britain and Jefferson's on his own. Oh. He worked on various trade treaties. He also became a sort of informal spy, noting down anything that he spotted whilst on his diplomatic missions and sending them to J.E. Washington and Madison back home. I love that.

11.43, saw a market stall selling oranges. Highly suspicious. Anything pertinent, perhaps. Not just anything. However, all this, being a diplomat and taking down notes, didn't take up all his time, and Jefferson was soon looking for something to do. He shared a

book wish list with Madison, and was soon seeking out quality texts as well as musical instruments to play. One day, he was upset to read a book by a French author called Georges-Louis Leclerc. That's my awful pronunciation there. Georges-Louis Leclerc. That's my awful pronunciation there.

Georges-Louis Leclerc? Yeah, that's your also awful pronunciation there. It was called The Natural History, and it claimed that everything in Europe, plant life, animal life, even humans, was stronger than those found in the New World. Oh. Oh, yes. Jefferson was obviously angered and horrified by this blanket statement about an entire population of people based solely on where they were born.

He ain't taking that sugar. Oh, no. Oh, no. No. Ignoring the irony gong furiously bashing behind him, he decided to write his own book to refute this or rather finish a book that he'd been working on sort of part-time for quite a while yeah he wrote notes on the state of virginia nice this is essentially a cross between an encyclopedia a philosophical manifesto

and a love letter to his homeland and there's a portion about slavery. Oh, okay. Yeah. He used slavery as an excuse to discuss his opinions on race, as we've already discussed. The black race was inferior in skin colour, facial features, body type and manners, according to Jefferson. He stated at one point that slavery was

bad, but he also discussed how black and white people should not live in the same society, and also how the state freeing slaves would be very tricky. Yeah. So he's starting to publicise his private thoughts at this point. Oh dear. Throughout, he writes

with apparent impartiality of a scientist. The entire thing he's writing, almost as if this is a just accepted fact. Presenting opinions as facts or reasonable assumptions. Do you want to hear a quote? I don't know. I advance, therefore, as a suspicion only,

that the blacks are inferior to whites in both body and mind. The unfortunate difference of colour, and perhaps faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people yeah it would be really awkward if someone turned on the podcast just like that oh yes it would

I hope no one ever takes that out of context that's horrible well to give this a bit more context Notes of Virginia is not all about his racist views this is a small section of Notes of Virginia is not all about his racist views. This is a small section of Notes of Virginia. But it's definitely the bit that sticks out with modern audiences. Yeah.

A lot of people in the US and France and Britain at the time, they thought it was pretty good, actually. He certainly was not alone with his thoughts. Oh, no, no. Now, talking of Britain, Jefferson then visits Adams. And they go and see Shakespeare's house. And then Jefferson meets King George. King George does not like Jefferson, snobs him. He's read some of Jefferson's works before.

Let's not forget, Jefferson is the person who wrote the Declaration of Independence, which literally is a list of reasons why George III is a bad person. Yeah. George not too impressed with him. Is this still George III? That's right. Yeah, it was still III here. So he heads back to France. And when he's back in France, he meets a portrait artist.

He gets on with this portrait artist, but he gets on with his wife a bit better. Right. Oh, yes. A woman named Maria Cosway, 27 to Jefferson's 43 at this time. She was young, energetic, creative and dazzling. Jefferson falls instantly in love with her. Do you think the artist came home one day and said,

Why are there acrylic bomb prints on my canvas? There's one on that one, there's footprints on the other. Some underwear with TJ initials in them hanging from the chandelier. What's going on? Yeah. Oh, hi, Tom. Still posing for your nude, I see. Yeah.

It would appear the feelings were returned. The two actually fall in love with each other. They spend a lot of time together anyway, going on walks, visiting museums. One day, in a show of bravado, Jefferson attempts to vault a fence. Oh man, you never do that. Not at 43. I wouldn't do that now at 30. No, he trips. He falls. He breaks his wrist. Oh. Yeah. That's hilarious. So you still try to flip it cool? I think so.

Oh, fine. It's fine. Oh, yeah. My arm always goes at that angle. Walk it off. Walk it off. It'll be fine. Yeah, he has to write with his left hand for quite some time afterwards.

Yeah, I've got lots of shaky signatures from this time. Brilliant. Now, we have no proof of how far their relationship went. Some historians claim that it was just Jefferson flirting with this young woman. from this time. Brilliant. And we have no proof of how far their relationship went. Some historians claim that it was just Jefferson flirting with this young woman. It's most likely they had a full-on affair, though. Yeah. And Maria's husband suddenly insisted

that they move to London for some reason. No idea why. Jefferson sends Maria a 4,000-word love letter. Ooh. Ooh. Yeah. But they both know that this cannot continue. Shortly afterwards, Jefferson hears the Shea Rebellion. Remember, this is where some people in Massachusetts have a little bit of rebellion.

People realise the government's not really working. Jefferson writes to Abigail, who's still in London. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, I wish for it always to be kept alive. I like a little rebellion now and then. It's like a storm in the atmosphere. Oh, romanticising it. He's very much an idealist, this is Jefferson.

Yeah. He then takes a tour of southern France and northern Italy, looking for Roman ruins, because they love the Romans. And then he's back in Paris. His eight-year-old daughter arrived. And then he's back in Paris. His eight year old daughter arrived. She had been sent for with her 14 year old slave called Sally Hemings. So they arrive. He also receives word from his other daughter, the one who was already in France. She'd been put into a French boarding school run by Catholic nuns. Yeah, he'd made it clear to the nuns,

I want you to educate my daughter, but leave religion out of it, will you? He said to the nuns. Yeah, it's at this point he receives a letter from his daughter saying, I've decided to become a nun daddy. Yeah, Jefferson immediately went there and pulled her out of the school.

No, no, no, no, no. No, you will not. By now, back in the US, they decided the government wasn't really working. They need to rewrite the whole thing. They need to do something like appoint a president or something. Maybe unify, have the states

united in some way. Yeah, yeah. They need to sort it out. Jefferson was really frustrated about being away from all of these decisions. He attempted to keep up with the Constitutional Congress, but he's a long way away. He's going to be like a month at least out of date. Well, it could be a round trip of letters,

could be between two to four months. Wow. Yeah, with this delay, it's just impossible to keep on top of things. So in dribs and drabs, he gets news on how the Constitution was coming along. Mainly, he approved of the direction. He was annoyed and angered by the lack of a Bill of Rights. He really felt there should be a Bill of Rights for citizens. It didn't seem to be coming, but there's not much he can do.

He's in France. Some young upstart named Hamilton was claiming that you didn't need a Bill of Rights because the Constitution gave the government no power that they could use to invade people's rights. Jefferson thought that was nonsense. Of course they needed a Bill of Rights. He needed a safeguard. Yeah. He wrote to Madison talking about how important

it was. He also wrote to several other people voicing his opinions, both good and bad, about the way the Constitution was shaping up. I like that part you sent me. Oh, you've told me about something else I'm a little bit worried about. He was just being open about his feelings. Yeah, fair enough. And then one day, he was

horrified to learn that certain people had been publishing his letters to support their own arguments. Oh, like, saying things like context, that sort of thing? Yeah, it's like, well, Jefferson clearly supports it, because he told me Yeah, it's like, well, Jefferson clearly supports it, because he told me in this letter, look,

or Jefferson clearly doesn't support the constitution, he told me in this letter, look. Yeah, not great. He'd sent those letters confidentially. Yeah. He wrote that on the bottom.

Yeah. But there's nothing he can do. I mean, by the time he read the letter, this would have happened, possibly a couple of months previously. Yeah, so he's really out of the loop. He's finding it frustrating. Eventually, word comes through that an agreement had been made. No Bill of Rights, but amendments could be made. So don't worry. We can amend the constitution at a future date. And we've done

it. We've got a constitution. We're going to elect a president. So Jefferson goes on another tour in Europe, through Central Europe this time, makes some new trade deals, just generally does his job. constitution where you go into elect president so jefferson goes on another tour in europe through central europe this time makes some new trade deals just generally does his job nice gets back to paris i mean things are getting tense in paris though well these aristocrats seem to be a lot less heady than they used to be yes we obviously have no time whatsoever to go into the ins and outs of the french revolution uh but let's just say it's about to kick off. Yeah. Yeah.

A group of politicians representing the people rather than the nobility of a church had been denied access to the assembly. They had their own assembly and called it the National Assembly. These were men full of stories about the American Revolution. Some had even fought in it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Jefferson, with his connections, was able to go and watch

this assembly. He was very excited about it all. Decided they weren't going to put up with all this aristocracy anymore. Riots soon start, which turn into a march on the Bastille, an ex-prison turned armory. The guards were all killed. The building was taken. Jefferson overjoyed by all this.

France is following in their footsteps to overthrow tyranny. Oh dear. Their two nations would become a beacon to the world. They would show everyone the way to freedom. Officially, he stayed out of it. Obviously, he's a foreign ambassador. He's going to stay neutral here.

In private, however, he significantly helped Lafayette write the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizens. Oh right, okay. Oh, and you can tell. Remember that first line of the Declaration of Man and Citizens. Oh, right. Okay. Oh, and you can tell. Remember that first line of the Declaration of Independence? Yeah. Right, well, here's the first line of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizens. Men are born and remain free and equal in rights.

The goal of any political association is the conservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, safety, and the resistance against oppression. It's like his first draft. Yeah, maybe he got to go back to his original draft. So he helps write that. Did it have in brackets underneath that screwy congressional congress? Yes, you're not changing this one. However, despite the great start, news starts coming to Jefferson about bloodthirsty mobs and mass shootings into unarmed crowds and

things like that. Yeah. He starts making nervous jokes in his letters about the poor wanting to cut people's heads off. Yeah. He installs bars onto his windows. He'd be fine, he was sure. This revolution was a great thing as soon as the poor just settled down a bit.

Yeah, just calm, calm down. Yeah. And then Jefferson's time was up and he was due back in the United States. There was a slight problem, though. All the boats have been burned. Not that, it's a personal problem. Okay. Sally Hemings.

That was the 14-year-old slave who's now a 16-year-old slave. She's pregnant with Jefferson's child. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's bad. Yeah. Sally was not... Bad Jefferson!

Sally was not like the other slaves. For a start, she was mixed race. That's not in itself uncommon. But the reason why she was mixed race was because she was the child of a slave woman and Martha's father. She was Martha's half-sister. His wife's half-sister. Yeah. Now, according to one source, she pointed out to Jefferson that she could be free in France.

And if she was going to go back to the United States, he had to promise that her children would be free by their 21st birthday. It would appear Jefferson agreed to this because Sally does go back to the US with Jefferson. Bad Jefferson. Bad Jefferson. I'm going to say it now if someone does anything stupid. Perhaps excited by the French Revolution, Jefferson planned to go

back home for six months and then return. No. Yeah. In November 1789, Jefferson, his daughters, Sally and the other slaves, land in Virginia. And there was a shock waiting for Jefferson back home. Washington, who had just been appointed as the first president,

had selected him as his Secretary of State. That is where we'll end it for today. Oh, okay. What do you think so far? Oh, what a git. Bad Jefferson. Yeah. He has flashes of brilliance, but ooh,

dodgy character. Yeah, it really is a shame because there were some, there were genuinely some things to like about him. Some of his political views. He wants more equality for people in many areas. Yeah. He's quite forward thinking or revolutionary in some areas.

He looks a bit all revolutionary. Yeah, but I mean, oh. I think bad Jefferson sums it up for quite a lot of his views and his actions. I think he needs to really pull something out of the bag next episode. He really does. He needs to

invent rockets or something. Yes. Let's face it, already he's going to have quite a big deduction due to his Disgrace Gate score. Just the fact with the slave girl. Oh, that's wrong. It's not right.

No. Yeah. Bad Jefferson. But maybe he does something brilliant next week that makes up for that. Well, we'll have to find out next week, won't we? Yes, we will. Right, thank you very much for listening. And if you have enjoyed this, please feel free to leave a review on iTunes.

That would help spread the word. That would be fantastic. Don't forget, you can follow us on our American President's Facebook page, which is American President's Total House Rankium. We're on Twitter as well, which is the same as our Roman one, and where I'm endeavouring to put a new fact every day on this day. I like it. For as long as I can be bothered.

I've enjoyed them so far. Yeah. Well then, all that needs to be said is goodbye. Goodbye. Okay, order, order. Right, here we are. Now, Jefferson, can I just thank you for your work on this document? You were very, very impressed. Thank you. I've worked tirelessly for 17 days,

locked in a room with nothing but a slice of mouldy bread, some jam and 62 bottles of limoncello. That work gets a bit wobbly near the bottom. It's pretty much illegible near the end. Yes, well, I mean, it's wonderful stuff, Thomas. Mightily impressed. A couple of changes, we were thinking. Just small, just small.

Nothing big. I mean, it's wonderful stuff. We're just thinking, do we need to attack the British people as a whole? Well, yes. They're against us. The king is against us. The country is against us. We get it, Thomas, but if we just attack the king, we don't come across as petty, bitter. We're revolting against our king who has done us wrong. But what about the letter I got from Sue, who lives in Durham? Well, you explicitly mentioned that. We were questioning it.

Something to do with three pounds of fish. I mean... It was four pounds and she knows it. Yes, I... Personal attacks on individual citizens of Britain. I just don't think it's the place or the time. Maybe take it up with her personally. So, we're just going to cross this bit out.

Yes, and this bit with the slavery, let's just put that away, shall we, Thomas? Why? It's just a bit embarrassing, really, isn't it? Anyway, cross through there. No, Thomas, it's gone. Leave it. Let it go. Let it go, Thomas.

Now, this bit, we're all loving this bit. Ah. Big long list of why George is horrible. Oh, Thomas. Now, um, ah, now this bit, we're all loving this bit. Big long list of why George is horrible. Oh yes. Yes. I, it's not a criticism. It's just after point 241, the repetitions are less concerning than, uh, how surreal it's starting to get. They're all true. Did he actually put babies on spikes? I heard from Sue in Durham that he did. Is he genuinely Genghis Khan's love child? Well, I mean, most people are. Well, quite, I suppose. Ah yes, this one here. Is it even possible that he impregnated that duck? I think we can spend all day talking about what is possible, what is not possible. We could spend all day talking about what is possible what is not possible

we could spend all day arguing this but we need to get across the overriding message is he is a massive git as you see through points 246 to 371 yes they all say he is a massive git yes yes

I think it's true to hammer it home ah yes which is uh what do you say in in point 429, is exactly what he does to poor people. With a radish. I've heard it. Right. Tell you what, Jefferson,

I'm going to let you choose your top ten. No, I need more. There's more than ten. We're going to leave this quill here. We're all going to go out for a limoncello. And when we come back, we want just your top ten, okay? Aw, man.

I was, yeah, weeded an artist about my family. And I'm related to Sherlock Holmes. Oh, are you? Yeah. Yeah, he's buried near us, isn't he? Yes, he is. Anyway, imagine if this is the first episode someone chose to listen to. What the... No. I to listen to. What the... No.

I'll listen to something else. It really, really got on well. That sounds like us. Yeah. This was... Sorry, it's just a very vivid image of you just lying on my lap and me reading you something from the Beano or something. Sorry, Cameron.

It's a lovely image. We can make that a reality. Yes. We just need a beano.