American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 31.2 Herbert Hoover

Episode Date: November 8, 2020

As the 2020 presidential race unfolds while we record, Jamie and I attempt to stay focussed and talk about just how well Hoover managed the great depression. Spoiler: It does not go well. He is a 1 term president. 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, the Hoover Part 2. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the ex-presidents, past presidents, presidents that cease to be, from Washington to Trump. And this is episode 31.2, Herbert Hoover. I've noticed you've got not quite a spring in your step, but a spring in your voice. It's been a long week, Jamie. It's been a very long week. It's been a very long week.

It's like day 4,000 of the election day. Yeah, if you're listening to this far in the future and for some reason you didn't hear the end of our last episode, we have planned our recording session so we would have a vague idea of who would win the election when we recorded this episode. So instead of recording at the start of the week, we decided to record on Thursday. How optimistic we were. Yeah. Yeah, it is now Friday. Friday, early Friday evening of 6th of November in the UK. So it's probably what, about mid, early afternoon, mid afternoon in America?

Depends where you are, but yeah. On the Friday, about three hours ago, Biden just went ahead in Pennsylvania. It's not officially been called yet, but we're at the point where Trump can no longer win. So there we go. He's a one-term president. So as we cover the presidents, we will be covering all presidents that have served. And I have already had a few messages from people over Twitter and Facebook. We are not planning on having a Biden episode, as in we're not going to rank Biden because by the time we get to him, he'll still be in the middle of being the president.

So it kind of seems unfair to judge someone. Well, we'll come back after three years. We could do his first part of his life. Well, that's what I was thinking. Cliffhanger. Three-year cliffhanger. I was thinking we could get to the end and we could do a special up to his presidency,

which is actually part one of his episode, and then just finish it off whenever his presidency finishes. That was my idea. But so, there you go. That's probably enough waffling on about current affairs, though, because who cares about the election? Oh, but before we start, Future Us has a little message to give. Thanks, Pastus. I'm just going to point out it is bonfire night uh or at least the weekend closest to bonfire night in this country if you're in america no idea what that means it's when we all celebrate uh the brutal execution of a man who tried to blow up the house of parliament yeah by reenacting it by stuffing a pair of trousers full of paper

and a shirt full of paper and burning the effigy of a man. Yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah. Oh, and set off lots of fireworks. Yes, yeah. It's essentially a really, really rubbish version of the 4th of July celebrations. But there's a lot more grim murder involved.

Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot more grim murder involved. Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of fireworks going off. So we apologise for the sound of bangs in the background that go on pretty much throughout the whole episode. So anyway, back to past us, who are about to start the episode. Cheers, Futurists. So anyway, let's do an introduction, shall we? And then we'll dive into herbert hoover and we'll

find out what his presidency is like uh start off with um just just pick i'm gonna be quite detailed with this one but i think you can play with it you know just you know we just zoom off to somewhere else right afterwards so it's fine um robot shark no um starting off with a room with a wooden chair yeah with a large-ish man in a suit and you can tell he's got his head in his hands his head's sort of blondie looks a bit of a bad dye job and the man's almost got kind of like an orangey kind of skin like a really bad that's very very detailed yeah he just came to me. Just came to you, right, okay. Okay, open on a man in a suit on a chair.

And it's in slow motion, this man weeping. And there's some quite jaunty music, however, sort of almost lift music in the background. And there's a voiceover suddenly appears. Do you suffer from incontinence? It says. And it goes on for a while. Go and see your doctor. Ask your doctor about this wonder drug, it says.

And anyway, the advert ends. Because it is just an advert for incontinence. That's what it is. And then a new advert comes on. It's another man in a suit weeping. This one's all about finance. He's walking through a maze and everything. And eventually the adverts end and across the screen comes

a couple of stars, blue and red, whooshing across and there's a do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do kind of music going on. Election night special comes up in writing. Very fancy. And then you're in the newsroom. You're joining us here

now, during the election and as you can see it's an utter landslide and then just zoom to a map but we are 100 years ago i suppose so we should probably not have a touchscreen map it's just a man with a chalkboard always trying to touch it but it's just i've got chalk on my finger yeah. As someone is writing lots of figures on a board, going over the same statistics again and again and again, as you watch it on a loop for a week. The words Herbert Hoover, you notice, is written on the board. And a percentage of vote next to it is just a sad face.

And, yeah, there you go. It just zooms into that name, Herbert Hoover, written on the board. And yeah, there you go. It just zooms into that name, Herbert Hoover, written on the board. And then it fades to black. Not a good ending to his presidency, I'm assuming. Who could say? Was Hoover a one-term president? We'll find out.

That would be embarrassing. Wouldn't it? Anyway, seriously now, scanning our heads into the past. We're 100 years ago. Remember, Hoover has become president and he has won in an utter landslide. He is incredibly popular. He's the man who can get things done.

He's expected to be a very good president. After all, the United States is prosperous. And if you ignore all the social problems and base your opinion on how well the country is doing solely based on the economy, it's doing very well. After all, it was the country of skyscrapers and automobiles, which were rapidly being created at this time. Technology moving forward at a pace that led people to believe that all hardship would inevitably be overcome. The Empire State Building was under construction, for example. I mean, this is a golden age. This is pre-King Kong

as well. Yeah, before that damn monkey got his hands on it. Yeah, it's good times. In fact, Hoover himself was very confident going into his presidency. In fact, I will quote him here, I have no fears for the future of the country. It is bright

with hope. Oh. Yeah. That's very positive. It was very positive. Again, quite hard to hear him, though. The gonging sound. Yeah.

Everything's going to be great, guys. As long as the economy doesn't fall over, we'll be fine. Not everyone was happy with the appointment of Huber, however. Do you remember Mellon? Fruit or the guy? The guy. We came across Mellon in Coolidge's episode and Harding's episode as well.

He is the Secretary of the Treasury at the moment. He is the second or third wealthiest man in the country. He is running everything to do with the economics. A true believer in trickle-down economics. Mellon wasn't too sure about this Hoover guy. In fact, Mellon had a sneak suspicion that Hoover was actually a closet interventionalist, the kind of politician who would actually get involved in free business. So Mellon's not too pleased. After all, he far more than Hoover believed that the government had no right in dealing with the finances of the country.

Mellon's massive tax breaks for the country, in particular for the rich, had, in most people's eyes, been proven to work. Remember, the country's doing well economically, so everyone's looking at what Mellon's doing and going, yeah, this is clearly working. So, you know, you've got this idea idea of like you you deregulate you don't want the good big government organizing so what what do they think the government should do then i suppose someone needs to decide what to go on the stamps what to print on the coins that kind

of thing yeah exactly the figurehead kind of stuff yeah you make a good point in that that that was the viewpoint it was the government should be as small as possible. The more we take off it, the less chance of tyranny, essentially, because then we can live free. This is after all the land of the free. And yeah, a lot of people were very much in agreement with this line of thought. And as long as you ignore the fact that roughly half the population were actually on the poverty line, those people who were making money were really making money. And those people were the ones calling all the shots.

So it was going pretty well. Most felt that Mellon's policies should not be touched at all. We're doing good things here, so just keep it as it is. And Hoover, much to Mellon's and many people's relief, agreed. Mellon retained his position. He's still the Secretary of the Treasury. They are still going to go along the lines of no or few taxes, small government intervention.

I must have given Mellon some confidence in Hoover then, saying, actually, or is he just so indispensable, it would just be impossible? Yeah, Mellons are very popular at this time um hoover was reassured but also remember hoover had made a name for himself at this point for being difficult to work with shall we say um melon didn't like the idea of having to work with a president who was difficult to work with the The last two presidents had pretty much gone, yes, Mellon, of course.

These are great ideas. So you've got the Mellon faction in the government, if not happy, at least placated. But also, you've got the progressives, not just in the Republicans, but in the Democrats as well. Progressives in both parties were quite pleased when Hoover announced that excessive fortunes were a menace to true liberty.

In fact, Hoover started to push through some quite liberal laws that would make things more transparent when it came to money and where it came from and who it went to in the government in regards to donors. What? Yeah, there's a lot of secrecy going on with who's giving who what for, you know, a bit of the old quid pro quo kind of thing. Let's try and make this a bit more transparent. So progressives were quite happy with that.

Mellon, not too pleased, but could do little. So, OK, well, at least you've let me keep my job, so fair enough. But that wasn't all that Hoover was doing to please the progressives, because he also started looking into reforming banks, also setting up cooperatives for farmers, and looking into how the railways were run. Because, let's face it, that's always been a hotbed of corruption. And also, I've just put this one on here because it's not a big deal, but I do like to hear you giggle.

He also was looking into doing some penal reform. Reform. People were starting to say that perhaps maybe the prisons aren't very good. Maybe we should stop caging people up like animals and watching them starve to death. It's a bit inhumane. It's a bit Victorian. Come on, we've moved on. We've moved on. Maybe we should actually have a prison system that isn't this bad. So some things were starting to happen that made some people in the country optimistic for the future.

However, the biggest problem that Hoover faced at the start of his presidency was prohibition. Oh, my goodness, yeah. Oh, yes. Prohibition. Can you imagine? Well, it had been in place for ten years now. Oh, bloody hell. What were they thinking? In the country, there were ten-year-olds that have never been able to go out and buy a whiskey.

That is insane. I know. Well, the problems were starting to become a bit too obvious to ignore. The fact that everyone was just bootlegging alcohol and probably more drunk than before, I imagine. Yeah. Prohibition had to become a popular enough movement because people believed that alcohol led to most of society's problems.

I mean, after all, it was obvious. Just go outside, look at all the drunks not working, or the angry drunks fighting, or the crime involved around the production and selling of alcohol. We get rid of the alcohol, all those problems will just disappear. Yeah, it's like the war on drugs. Same thing there.

Yeah. Solve that problem. We'll get to that. So, as you can imagine, this is actually a relatively easy sell, because everyone had seen with their own eyes what a person turned to drink looked like. Many people had someone in the family or even closer to them who had turned to drink and it's never good, is it? No. Someone's life falls apart and they turn to drink. It must be the alcohol's fault.

Yeah, yeah. It's the only possible explanation. However, I mean, 10 years on, it was starting to dawn on a lot of people that perhaps, just maybe, the drunk layabouts and the angry drunks and the crime around the production of alcohol was actually a symptom of problems in society itself, rather than simply just the alcohol. No. Crazy. After all, we've gone ten years without a drink and there's still angry and depressed people around. And if anything, crime really seems to be going up.

And not only that, I really would like a drink. It'd probably calm everything down, to be honest. Exactly. Fears were confirmed when in 1929 the St Valentine's Day Massacre took place. Oh, Al Capone! Al Capone's criminal enterprise was taking over Chicago and this was yet another one of those moments of,

oh my God, look how modern we're getting. We've had Al Capone. I hadn't even thought about Al Capone, but of course we're right in the middle of Al Capone now. Old Scarface, yeah. Yeah, he's making an estimated $60 million a year at this point through his crime enterprise. A lot of that coming through illegal distribution of alcohol.

Has that been upscaled to what he would earn now? No, no, that's back then. That is obscene. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, an obscene amount of money. Hoover set up a commission, you'll be pleased to know, to look into prohibition. Oh, what, yeah, yeah, an obscene amount of money. Hoover set up a commission, you'll be pleased to know, to look into Prohibition. Oh, what a commission. Yeah, if Hoover loved one thing, it was money.

But apart from that, it was a good commission. Couldn't get enough of a good commission. I mean, he would never say it outright. He'd set up a commission first to make sure it's the right outlook to have. But once that came back in favour, oh, yeah, he'd get right on a commission to look into the results. Commission the hell out of something. But once that came back in favour, oh yeah, he'd get right on a commission to look into the results. Commission the hell out of something.

Oh yeah. Anyway, Hoover himself, he did enjoy a drink or two, but he was very much in favour of prohibition. It was just the political way to go at the time. It's almost like stopping the poor people from drinking, isn't it? Well, oh yeah, because like I've said before, stockpiles of alcohol.

There's still a lot of alcohol in the country and the rich can get hold of it yeah because drinking alcohol is not illegal you just can't yeah you just can't sell it and you can't produce it so as long as you know where to buy it from and you're rich no problems so yeah it's very much in favor of prohibition so this commission that Hoover set up to look into Prohibition, where he hoped that it would find that the government's support for Prohibition was definitely the right path. It was a commission to get the right answers, and the right answers were Prohibition is the way forward. Prohibition, good. Yeah. However, the Wickersham Commission did not go the way Hoover expected it.

The report highlighted how the 18th Amendment was just, frankly, impossible to uphold. It led to more organised crime, as the business of alcohol had been handed wholesale to criminal enterprises. It also highlighted that public support was overwhelmingly against the amendment, and it also brought to light several practices of law enforcement used to enforce it, including the fact that, and I will quote the report here, the inflicting of pain, physical or mental, to extract confessions or statements is widespread throughout the country. Splendid. Yeah, corrupt law enforcement was just using it as an excuse to go around and bash schools together, basically. The commission found that bribery was utterly rife throughout the country,

that policing was politically motivated, not actually chasing down actual laws, entrapment was commonplace, that crimes linked to prohibition was routinely going unanswered. All in all, no one wanted it, it wasn't working, and it was clearly bad for society. So when did Hoover get rid of it? Oh, well, I've not got to the conclusion of the report yet. Oh, dear. Do you want to hear the conclusion of the report? So there are the results. Yeah.

Oh, they're going to keep it, aren't they? The report concluded that prohibition should continue and be enforced with stricter measures. Oh, for goodness sake. Yeah. Oh, they're going to keep it, aren't they? The report concluded that prohibition should continue and be enforced with stricter measures. Oh, for goodness sake. Yeah. That's just, that's not even, it's not even, it's beyond stupid. It was very clear that certain words had been had in certain rooms and that the conclusion had been decided

despite what the commission had actually found out. In fact, a popular poem soon came up that was written in one of the newspapers to describe the Wickersham commission. Prohibition is an awful flop. We like it. It can't stop what it's meant to stop. We like it. It's left a trail of graft and slime. It don't prohibit worth a dime. It's filled our land of graft and slime. It don't prohibit worth a dime. It's filled our land with vice and crime.

Nevertheless, we're for it. It wasn't great. There was a lot of angry people in the country. Desperate for a drink. It's been 10 long years. Yeah. Campaigns to create a new amendment to repeal the 18th Amendment started up in earnest. Meanwhile, however, Hoover was busy with the idea of a dam being built, because in June 1929...

Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course, yeah. Congress approved the Boulder Dam Project Act. A dam was to be built in the deserts in the east. The idea had been floating around for the last 30 years, in fact. And thanks to input from the president, it finally passed. The dam would be the largest concrete structure in the world and would generate electricity and provide water to millions. It was obviously named Boulder Dam.

Yeah. Right up until 1947. Hoover Dam. Hoover Dam, of course. Yes, it was renamed Hoover Dam in honour of the inventor of the vacuum hoover. Who used the electricity from the dam. Yes, exactly. I'm sure that's right. So, I mean, things seem to be going fairly well, really, don't they? Yeah, it's all going up and up. Yeah, I mean, okay, there's public disquiet over the prohibition, but the committee went the way

Hoover wanted it to go, and there's a big Dambian bill. All good. But it wasn't long, however, before problems started, because Hoover had started to do what he always did in any job that he'd ever done, and that was starting to annoy, irritate, and anger everyone around him. Now, although the Republicans held both houses of Congress, Hoover simply didn't have the relationship with them to guarantee that things would actually automatically pass, because he just annoyed too many people. He'd also not endeared himself to the press as well. As we've seen in recent times with Harding and Corlidge, Hoover insisted that reporters give him the questions in writing the day before a press conference. the questions in writing the day before a press conference.

However, unlike Harding in college, Hoover often simply cherry-picked the questions he'd answer and often ignored any that scrutinised him in any way whatsoever. The press conferences soon dwindled rapidly as reporters realised that they weren't going to get anything worthwhile at all from this president. And soon enough, reporters with access to the White House were grumbling that Silent Cal had actually been easier to work with. The press corps shrank to around just a dozen people, and Hoover started to find it harder and harder to get positive press

just because the reporters didn't like him. And then, on Tuesday, October the 24th, 1929, the New York Stock Exchange went into freefall, and the worst day in the history of the market followed. This is just the start. Over the next couple of weeks, the stock exchange utterly collapses. Now Hoover, to his credit, decided very quickly that he needed to step in and do something. This is more than his predecessors had done. If you look at all the panics we've covered so far, and we've had a few, they all existed in a time where the presidents just wouldn't get involved.

This is the free market, nothing to do with the government. But, I mean, what you can say with Hoover is that he did try and do something almost immediately. And that might seem a bit surprising, with everything I've said about Hoover, that he's going to get the government involved in free market. Yeah, because they're sort of against that, aren't they? But he's... He never dedicated himself, did he, to that? Really?

Well, yeah, as we've seen, his philosophy does seem to waver a bit depending on what he was doing. And just like the last episode, you get the impression that when Hoover did it, he didn't see it as the government. He saw it as himself as a person. He wasn't going to get the government to sort this mess out, but him as a person was going to sort it out using volunteer agencies and private companies. agencies and private companies. Now, right now, the easiest way for Hoover to fix this problem,

or at least as he saw it, was to use his powers as the president to persuade private companies to come in and do their bit. So in mid-November, he summoned to the White House various leaders in industry, finance and construction, etc, etc. The bigwigs,

the robber barons. So it was like a guy with a massive hammer, dungarees andons. So it was like a guy with a massive hammer, dungarees and a working helmet. It was a guy with a briefcase and a monocle. Yeah. Bob the builder. Yeah. Exactly. Someone from the railway. The fat controller. Oh, yeah. The fat controller. Yeah. Yeah. This meeting

was called the Conference for Continued Industrial Progress or the KKIP as you could abbreviate it to. Good abbreviation. Nice. They wanted to stop this from ruining the country. And the way to stop this from ruining the country was for everyone to stay calm. Let's not panic. We've all gone through a panic before.

But it's fine, honestly. So, said Hoover, what I want you all to do to keep everyone calm is to promise that none of you will reduce wages. We've got to keep the economy moving. Keep paying your staff. So they can put money back into the system and all keeps going around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't panic. Reduce wages. Lay people off. It'll just spiral. Keep paying your staff. We'll all stay afloat. Basically, just try and ignore the problem, it'll sort itself out. In turn, said Hoover, I'll make sure that the unions pledge not to strike for a while.

We'll call a stalemate on the whole striking, trying to improve working conditions for a bit, because if we carry on arguing about this now, just like in the war, things will get bad very quickly. Oh, and also, one more thing, said Hoover. Seriously, when I say no one should panic, I really mean it. And can we not call this a panic? Because that's what we've always called our financial panics before. And the word panic is a little bit panic-inducing. So what we need is a new word to describe a panic a financial panic so something that's not

quite so active doesn't sound quite so well panicky yeah um how about the financial blip blip blip works but i don't know it's still a bit sharp sounding isn't it financial blow financial low is that blow or blow blow low that's. Sort of like it's just been squashed a bit. Yeah. The financial's just pressed down. Yeah. It's under pressure. Under pressure.

Depressed. Depressed. Depressed. Ooh. We've all been a bit depressed at times, but then... Well, the money's a bit depressed, isn't it? Because it's not moving around. It's like a financial depression.

Cheer up, money. It's going to be all right. Yeah. Yeah. Financial depression. That will do. Not a panic. It's like a financial depression. Cheer up, money. It's going to be all right. Yeah. Financial depression. That will do. Not a panic. It's fine.

So there you go. Panics are no longer called panics. They're called depressions. Yeah. Something I did not realise at all. No? It was all just a way of making it sound less panicky. That's brilliant.

Now it just sounds more sad. Yeah, it just sounds really miserable. Anyway, the meeting went quite well, actually. The leading companies in the country all agreed to maintain wages, and also afterwards the unions agreed not to strike for a while. That's a win-win. Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone realised that this could be quite bad,

so let's pull together. Henry Ford even announced that he would increase wages for the good of the country. Wow. Oh, yes. What a guy. Hoover then turned to the railways. Any chance, railways, you could increase your maintenance projects?

Anything that you were planning to do on the railways over the next few years, could you perhaps speed that up a bit? Put it on the fast track. Just my little joke there. Create more jobs, you know? Let's go and do the repairs now, not next year. Get it done by next Tuesday. That'd be splendid.

Yeah, so more jobs, more moving of money. Yeah, keep stimulating that economy. The head of the National Electric Light Association was so infused by everything that was going on, he pledged to spend $100 million more than they had planned to in the next year. Wow. Yeah. More investment into the company, keep paying our wages. So successful, in fact, were these meetings at this time, which involved roughly 400 of the leading businessmen in the country, that Hoover came out of it utterly convinced that this proved beyond a shadow of a doubt

that socially responsible capitalism was truly alive in the country and soon would be responsible for the country rebounding from this panic quicker than ever before. I think he's right. I think he's on to a good one. Well done, Hoover. Sorry, depression quicker than ever before. Yeah, sorry. right. I think he's on to a good one. Well done, Hoover. Sorry, depression quicker than ever before. It's not a panic. Depression. Yeah.

So it's great. He went out. He did a little dance. Made a little love. Made a little love. Got down tonight. Oh, yeah. Everything is coming up cheeky.

Now, to be fair, he did instruct the federal farm board to keep crop prices stable through the buying and selling of grain. So he's doing a little bit of federal intervention. But mostly he's inspiring private companies to do things to try and stabilize the economy. And for the rest of 1929, it appeared that, well done, Hoover. He's kind of done enough here. The markets start to slowly recover. Some started to talk of Hoover as being an economic mastermind. The name Hoover will be synonymous with economic turnarounds.

However, as you might have guessed, this is not how the story ends. Oh, didn't it? No, the country was a ticking time bomb. While companies throughout America were indeed staying by their pledge not to reduce wages, they were doing what any company does by nature, and that is to figure out the way to make the most profit possible. I mean, that's just what businesses do. So if they're not going to reduce wages because they pledge not to,

they had to find out another way to make sure that they weren't spending too much money in these troubling times. So what do you do? Raise costs? No, because they... Fire people? Yeah, there we go. Oh, but they were asked not to. They said, he said, don't lay people off. It was, don't

reduce people's wages. Oh, okay. If you don't reduce the wages, instead, all you need to do is reduce the wages, instead all you need to do is reduce the hours. You don't necessarily need to fire people, but you could just employ them to do a lot less work. Ariday. Yeah, exactly. So soon, unemployment was rising at an alarming rate. Soon enough, bread lines were common throughout most cities in the country, but in particular New York City. By March of 1930, 2,000 men were found in a bread line in New York City, only for the last 500 to be turned away when the food ran out.

This was an early sign that things were not going well. Was it after you missed three meals, that's when you start rioting? Yeah. Hoover, who had never been one to be, you know, honest or follow little things like the law, if it got in the way, started to simply just lie about the employment figures in an attempt to keep the country positive. He halved the number of the unemployed in the reports and just hoped that people would not be able to see for themselves the massive increase in homelessness and in food queues. Yeah. He announced that the depression had turned a corner and that a great economic experiment was a complete success. In fact,

I quote him here at this point, we have passed the worst. Now, where have I heard that before? past the worst. Now where have I heard that before? Yeah, just round the corner. It's on the upswing. That's what it is. However, the statements had more of a ring of desperation about them. And when a delegation of bishops and business

owners arrived at the White House, which it's never a delegation you want when the bishops turn up on your door to moan. You know something's going wrong. Yeah, they turned up to point out to moan you know something's going wrong uh yeah they turned up to point out to hoover that people were you know really struggling to eat here businesses were failing maybe maybe we're not on the upturn maybe something needs to be done hoover grew angry at them gentlemen he said you have come 60 days too late. The depression is over.

Yeah. Public support for Hoover in large cities started to fall away quite rapidly as Hoover started to ask people to disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes. Oh, wow. Yeah. He simply just said, no, it's fine. Everything's getting better. It obviously wasn't. And then summer hits.

And with it came the biggest drought in living memory the dust bowl thing oh yes yeah oh yes uh just as with the great uh depression no one realized that this drought actually signified the start of the dust bowl where droughts and dust storms decimated the great Plains for about a decade. The breadbasket. Yeah. Very quickly, these rural areas were in as dire straits as the large urban areas. Wow. I mean, everywhere was struggling, but the urban areas were definitely faring worse. But then the drought hits. Now everywhere's suffering. However, this is a natural disaster. A drought. And just as with the Great Flood three years previously, this is a natural disaster. A drought.

And just as with the Great Flood three years previously, this, surely, was Hoover's bread and butter. He knows how to organise. He knows how to provide aid. This is something he can do to turn public opinion around. Fingers crossed. So, just like with the Great Flood, he turned to the Red Cross and he started to organise.

Or help them to organise, or help them to organise. However, there was a bit of a difference between now and the Great Flood of 27, because for some reason, unlike in Europe and unlike mostly during the flood, Hoover and the Red Cross suspected that those who were afflicted by the drought were simply faking it. What? There was a large, large suspicion that these were just a bunch of layabouts looking for a handout. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, and this gets to the heart of Hoover's response for the Great Depression,

because he, along with many others who were in a position to do something about it, simply did not believe that things were that bad. It's like, just work harder, get some work, and it'll be fine sort of attitude. Yeah, it's very easy to see how, after a whole couple of generations living through the Gilded Ages version of the American Dream, how the rich of the country had come to distrust the poor.

Because after all, if you are told constantly that if you work hard you will succeed, you will therefore implicitly learn that if you don't succeed, it's because you're not working hard enough. So there are many in the country who have the belief that all the people losing their farms or their jobs somehow just had it coming. Is this, without obviously trying to offend an entire nation, is this maybe an attitude that has...

Well, it is an attitude that has continued, hasn't it? But is this where it sort of started, the 20s? You definitely see elements of this in modern-day American politics, but it's certainly not a unique American position. No, no, of course not. The fact that the American dream has been called the American dreams and America very much own it as a philosophy. You very much think of this attitude as being very American and in some ways it is but I mean

it's this attitude was also very Victorian. Yes it's fair. Yeah but the fact is that there were a lot of people in power at this time who believed the only reason why the poor were poor is because they weren't working hard enough or they were just poor at planning they should have prepared for this so it's like the ebony's screwed sort of yes exactly hoover of course if you remember is living proof that this version of the american dream is alive and kicking it works yes i mean he through a lot of hard work and also a lot of luck but he probably didn't recognize that has achieved great things from pretty much nothing at all so therefore he found it particularly difficult to understand people being stuck in poverty well i was stuck in poverty he thought and i managed to get myself out of it. So how hard can it be?

Now, he had become convinced that if the government did anything to ease the suffering of the people, then they would become dependent on that aid, and therefore they would become dependent on the government, and no longer would they attempt to do anything for themselves. Society would stagnate. So instead, Hoover went full throttle in trying to get the private sector to set up charities to help out the families,

who were now starting to literally starve to death. How successful would that be? Because that involves giving away money. Well, let's go into it, shall we? Hoover was told by several leading businessmen that the scale of this problem had become too large. As you just pointed out, it's like, can we just rely on charities to cover the need here? Perhaps the government need to do something. But Hoover was not impressed. In fact, he replied, this nation did not go great from feeding upon the malignant pessimist or calamity monger and prosperity for all our people will not be achieved by the wailings of word sobbers which i quite like as a turn of a phrase but seriously hoover seriously um yeah essentially stop moaning about it and pull your socks up was hoover's attitude so it brings all of all the nation together well He certainly did that.

Now, despite this, or perhaps actually because of this, there was an increasing demand for some kind of dole to be set up. Something that all citizens could get. Not much, but just enough that they could eat a basic meal. Because it would be nice if we could eat. So maybe, could that be set up? Now, this went against everything that Hoover stood for, so instead of setting up some kind of doll,

he set up a commission. Oh, he must be rubbing his legs like mad at that. Oh, damn commission, yes. This is the President's Emergency Committee for Employment, or PEC-E. Or maybe peace, you could say it that way. I prefer PEC-E. PEC-E works, yeah. With over 5 million unemployed at this point,

the PEC-E pushed forward with a campaign to encourage people to employ men to spruce their homes up. That's all you need to do. Yeah, everyone just needs to... Yeah, everyone, employ all these men in the breadline to go and do your house up, and then we'll get the economy moving again. What's that? You don't want to spend your money on sprucing your house up because the economy's falling apart. Yeah, you can imagine how successful this push was. It just did nothing. But Hoover could say, when people moaned at him that a doll was needed, that he was doing something. Meanwhile, however, in the White House, Hoover was starting to lose hope because things were starting to go really badly. As we saw in the first episode, he wasn't

the most social of people. He struggled to talk to people. However, now he actively started to avoid people. In fact, I'll quote one person who worked in the White House at the time. He would go about never speaking to any of the help, never a good morning or even a nod of the head. There was always a frown on his head and a look of worry. He's feeling a bit stressed. Well, it came as a surprise to few that, as the midterms came upon them, the massive majorities gained in the previous election were utterly wiped out.

Yeah. The Senate held on to its majority by just one seat, and the House was lost for the first time in over a decade. Not good midterms for Hoover. But not only that, it turned out that a relative of Teddy Roosevelt himself was suddenly very popular being the governor of New York. That looked a bit worrying. But oh well, Hoover did what he always did when he was under pressure.

That's... And that was dig in and double down. To admit mistakes was a sign of weakness. We certainly wasn't going to do that. If the economy was struggling still, it was because the government was doing too much, damn it, not too little. Right. Oh. Yes. What? Yeah, what he needed to do was really pressure the companies to do things even more. So when it was suggested that the government increase the number of public works in order to create jobs, Hoover refused. And I quote him, prosperity cannot be restored

by raid upon the public treasury. I mean, despite the fact that he was claiming that it could be by the private sector creating jobs that way, that was fine. But for some reason, the government creating jobs was a bad thing. But it's public money as well. It's money that's there for the... Yeah. He's not going to fare well in the rounds, is he? You could say that. I've got this feeling. he's not going to fare well in the rounds, is he? You could say that.

I've got this feeling. Yeah, so the doubling down wasn't going across too well with the public. No. So Hoover soon fought back against that. He soon announced that through local community voluntary action, there was, and I quote, minimum actual suffering being experienced by the public. I don't know what you're all moaning about.

You've never had it so good. Look at all these skyscrapers being built. We're prosperous. I guess they are still being built in this, aren't they, as well? Oh yeah, literally. The Empire State Building is being opened as we speak. King Kong's waiting around the corner like, soon.

I'll have that. And by this point, he was convinced that the reason why the economy was not improving was because there was no longer any trust in the government. Yeah. And in order to get the trust back, all he has to do, it's quite simple, is balance the government's books. Just move one number from one column to another. Yeah, exactly.

How do you do that without literally just doing that because people would spot that that was a lie? Well, easy. All you need to do is save money. And how do you save money as a government? Stop spending money on things. Stop spending money on things. Oh, not like people. So when Congress attempted to reorganise and grow the effectively useless United States Employment Service, which was an agency created to help people to look for work, Hoover vetoed it. Why? It would cost too much money. He wants money in the economy. Like, you need to get people...

Yeah, but he wants the money to be moving around through the private sector, not through the government. And the government had to save as much money as possible so people would trust that it was stable and that would inspire people to invest. But if there's, say, another drop coming, that money becomes worthless. Yeah. Hoover claimed that having a service to help people find work would cause,

and I quote him here, a serious blow to Labour. If you're trying to find sense in that, there is none. No. I did look for a while, seeing if I was missing something obvious here, but no, this is just a blatant, obvious lie. Most in Washington, including Republicans, were as confused as you are now. In fact, I quote one senator at the time, it is not likely that any veto message of an American president ever exceeded this one in misstatement of fact. The president had just stood up and just said a

load of bleep. It just wasn't in any way truthful whatsoever. How could a president do that? If you could imagine living through such a time. Public mistrust was turning into public anger by this point. Homelessness went from being more common than usual to full-on shanty towns being built all across the country. Wow. Hoovervilles, as they became known. Unemployment by this point had risen to 8 million, and the basics of society were starting to fall apart.

Schools were just about operating, but that was only because teachers had stopped being paid several months before and were just voluntarily working, which in Hoover's mind, obviously, is brilliant volunteer work. Oh, charity. Exactly. However, in real life, there's only so long that teachers could do that before they've got to go and try and find another job otherwise they can't feed themselves

it's not sustainable and then uh do you remember the government were doing some uh work trying to stabilize crop prices uh well that then falls. The food board had been buying and holding wheat in order to keep the prices for wheat high so the prices wouldn't collapse. But the prices had kept falling anyway and it reached a tipping point. In a desperate attempt to keep the surplus worth something, the food board encouraged starving farmers

to stop growing as much. We've got too much wheat now. And this stockpile of wheat we've got will be worth nothing if you keep growing more wheat. So stop growing wheat. Aren't there starving people in the city? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of starving people.

But that's not because there's not enough food. It's because people can't afford to eat. So you farmers, stop doing the only thing that you're able to do to make money it's the only way to make this massive government stockpile affordable honestly it's for your own good but surely if you make so much it becomes more affordable uh yeah but it would be worth literally nothing they'd stop hard so much it would crash the market completely yeah and then the farmers wouldn't be able to sell it so they wouldn't sell it it would just lay in fields rotting but people would live and could eat no no because the wheat

would just stay in the fields and rot no one would cut it down because it's not cost effective to go and reap the fields so anyway uh what i'm trying to say here is that the farms were falling apart and the government stockpile had backfired massively and then eventually the board just gave up they couldn't keep the wheat prices under control so they cut their losses and they did indeed dump all of the grain on the market, and the market collapsed. Many, many, many farmers went bankrupt overnight. Oh, dear. $500 million had been spent on this project.

The project had lost the government a further $345 million. Almost a billion dollars. You're getting there. In Huber's eyes, of course, this only confirmed his suspicions that governmental intervention is simply a waste of money. Right. There, I tried my bit with the government, and look, it was a huge waste of money.

In fact, I quote him here, we cannot legislate our way out of a world economic depression. A world? Oh, yeah, it was global by this point, to be fair to Hoover. Because was it at this point that they contacted Germany and said, oh, you know that money we gave to you? We lent to you for your...

We are just about to get to that. You're literally right on the money there. Well done. Because the rest of the world is not doing too well. As the economy of the world started to collapse, countries start to look inwards. Self-protection. Yeah, exactly. collapse, countries start to look inwards. Self-protection. Yeah, exactly.

Economies collapse, countries look inwards, nationalism starts to rise. Where have we seen that? Yeah. But in this day and age, a hundred years ago, the pacts and agreements made after World War I started to fall apart as the countries start to look inwards. It wasn't all bad news, though. As the major powers in the world tightened their belts, they also started to agree to build fewer weapons. Weapons were expensive.

In 1930, in London, Britain, France, Japan, Italy and the United States all agreed to halt construction on battleships. Oh, that's good. Well, sort of. I mean, there was a slight disagreement in the fine print. France and Italy just stormed out. Yeah, we're not doing this. But Britain, the US and Japan agreed they'd stop building battleships.

I'm sure that won't come back to bite in the arse later on. That's fine. It's a start, isn't it? It's a start to world peace and maybe everything's going to be lovely in the future. Ultimately, however, Hoover ended up frustrated when he talked of disarmament with Europe.

Nations in Europe largely just ignored him. In particular, for some reason, France were unwilling to stop making tanks. Well, not surprised. Hoover definitely thought everyone in Europe should stop building weapons. I mean, that could lead to war. He didn't quite get the fact that, I mean, within living memory,

France had been invaded a couple of times. And in fact, they were right now, right next door to a country that had a new far-right nationalist government that had just been elected. That's 33, isn't it? Yeah, that's where we are. Oh. Oh.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, peace in our time. So that's Hoover in Europe. But in the Americas, he seemed to have a bit of a better footing. As we saw in the last episode, Hoover was not in line with most of his party when it came to intervening in Central and South America.

If you remember in Corledge's episode, I talked about Nicaragua and how the troops finally pulled out in 1933. Yep. Well, there you go. Here, it's now 1933. It happens under Hoover because he refused to send any more troops in to another country simply just to uphold business

interests in the US. So, all credit to Hoover there. I mean, that's just, in my mind, common sense. Maybe you should stop threatening people with guns just because you've got a business in the country. You never know, it might work.

Hoover largely kept out of the region of the world. Around 20 revolts occurred in Latin America during his term, and he didn't really get involved in any of them, even when anti-US factions won in several countries. In fact, a newspaper in Argentina was pleased. I'll quote it. Mr. Hoover differs from other American presidents in not proclaiming any God-given mission over the rest of the continent.

Yeah. As I've said, the rest of the continent were sick to the back teeth of the US by this point. Yes. And the fact they kept coming along and just... Stop sticking your nose in. Yeah, exactly. But to be honest, if Hoover was not getting too involved in international affairs, it wasn't really because of an overarching belief that he had. It was more the fact that the United States was falling apart at

the seams, and he was too busy looking at that. However, there is one international affair that Hoover could not ignore. Germany's economy was in utter freefall. I mean, every country was struggling, but Germany was not good. Not only are they dealing with all the economic problems the rest of the world are dealing with, but they've also got huge reparations imposed from Versailles. So their economy was falling faster than most. In fact, it looked worryingly like some form of, I don't know, far right or far left coup might take place in the country. Don't be silly. Yeah. However, it wasn't the ideologies of a European nation that worried the United States.

It was the fact that over half the banks in the United States, already struggling to stay open, had huge investments in Germany because they'd let Germany borrow a lot of money. They needed it. Yeah. Because they'd let Germany borrow a lot of money. They needed it. Yeah. So if a coup were to take place in Germany,

the United States would take a significant financial hit. So Hoover took action. We've gone back in time a little bit here. In the summer of 1931, Hoover recommended suspending European debt payments to the United States. Now, in turn, it was expected that the European countries would suspend their debts with Germany. So in other words Britain, France you can stop paying us back all that money you owe but stop stop annoying Germany because seriously we need to let Germany stabilize. Who knows what could happen if Germany falls. Well we know what will happen we'll end up losing a lot

of money and we don't want that. And then the second largest bank in Germany collapsed. Ah. And then Britain abandoned the gold standard. Oh, didn't know that. Yeah. That didn't help. What do we use now then? The plastic standard?

Yeah, I think it was. Not plastic back then, of course. Wood. The wood standard I think Britain went on to at that point. Yeah. It would be pine. You could only buy things with wood chips and Victorian urchins. Nice.

Yeah. Now, this hits the US economy hard, as you can imagine. Credit was restricted to stop gold flowing out of the country. By this time, the unemployment rate in the United States hit 15% and was steadily getting worse. Within the next six months, almost one in four Americans had no job. Wow, that is... Yeah. Of course, that is insane. Runs on the banks increased as people suspected that they would lose all their savings. Money was converted into gold and hidden in cupboards and under the mattress and in your sock.

The economy, to put it bluntly, was grinding to a shuddering halt. It just takes a few people to... It's happened in the stock market as well. They stopped putting the stocks in there. It's like, I'm pulling out and selling. It's not going well, is what I'm trying to say here. Hoover met with Mellon and several leading bankers once more. He was shocked and disappointed when in the meeting rather than

coming up with ideas the leading bankers of the country stated that this was beyond them and they needed government help. But he doesn't like doing that. Well yeah exactly Hoover simply refused. The banks could get them out of this. Tell you what, if they promised to set up a national credit corporation to get money moving again, and then if that failed, he promised he would do something, but they needed to volunteer first. So the National Credit Corporation was set up by the largest banks in the United States. $500 million was put together for smaller

banks to loan. So smaller banks would not close because they could borrow some money off the big banks to keep them stable. This fails. As you would expect, banks by their very nature are made to make money. That's what banks do. So the large banks, therefore, only actually loaned out money to banks that they were certain they could make an ultimate profit out of. They were only going to loan money to the stable banks. So to not the people that need it. Yeah. Therefore, by definition, the banks that needed the most help were left alone, and therefore they collapsed, weakening the whole system even more. This is going swimmingly for Hoover, I think.

Yeah. So it looked at what the big banks to actually lend out money here, that only 10 million out of the 500 million set aside for this was actually loaned out. Oh. Yeah. Hoover was utterly outraged. His plan of trusting bankers to sort the problem would work. He insisted this. But the problem was not his plan.

It was the bankers themselves. The bankers were being greedy. Now that's so unlike bankers. I know. I mean, how was he supposed to know that the bankers would just look after their own financial interests? Where did that come from? I know, it's shocking stuff.

Then more problems start up. of their own financial interests. Where did that come from? I don't know. It's shocking stuff. Then more problems start up. The big business finally gave in with their promise to not cut wages. Remember? They weren't going to cut wages. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, they could use the loophole

of reducing hours for only so long. US Steel, US Rubber, and General Motors all announced that they were cutting wages. Ford, having already fired three quarters of their employees, then followed. Yeah, again, calls for a dole started up as more and more people were unable to feed themselves. In order to quieten the calls for a dole, Hoover did what he did best. Commission! Yeah, he set up another committee. This one's called the President's Organisation for Unemployed Relief. It would coordinate

local welfare agencies and it was given precisely zero funds. Like literally nothing. It's just go and coordinate the volunteer organisations. It was an empty shell. It couldn't do anything. During a Senate committee, the

chair was asked how many people in the country needed relief and how many were getting it. And the response was that he did not believe, and I quote, the data would be of any particular value. My sober and considered judgment is that federal aid would be a disservice to the unemployed. Yeah. Hoover, meanwhile, was pushing hard against the idea of a dole. Again I quote, But this simply just wasn't true.

Hoovervilles were multiplying. In Detroit alone, 200,000 people were out on the streets with no work. This is seriously bad. Society is falling apart. Reports start to come in of people literally starving to death. Now, I've mentioned a few times that people were starving and people were not able to feed themselves. But we've got to the point where people were literally dying of starvation. Hoover just simply refused to believe the report, stating later that, and I quote, nobody actually starved during the depression, but it's just not true. People did.

The president, possibly feeling like he was in one of those looping nightmares that just kept going on and on, and not knowing what to do, decided that now was the best time to double down once more on his idea of balancing the budget. Again, he is still utterly convinced by this point that the only way to stop the banks from failing was to convince the banks and the population at large that the government was on sound footing. It would calm people to know that there was a firm hand on the tiller after all. So again, how do you balance the budget that was running at this point

and the historic deficit? Well, last time you cut spending, so firing people, that didn't work. So what else do you do to raise money as a government? Oh, raise taxes. Oh yes yes. Tax increases. I'm assuming this is like a targeted tax increase, though, rather than a general tax increase. No, no, it's fairly general. I mean, to be fair to Hoover, yes, it disproportionately was aimed at the richer of society. Well, they could afford it. It wasn't a poll tax. It wasn't that bad. But I mean, it was raising taxes across the board. And then Hoover gives up.

The bankers had failed. Volunteer work was failing. He finally decided that the government needed to step in and actually do something. How many years did that take? Roughly about three. During the war, the government had created the war finance corporation or the wfc to help finance industries essential to the war effort things that support the country on a federal level fair enough yeah it's like you make boots that the soldiers use so we'll make

sure your company doesn't fail we need need your boots. Here's some money to invest into your business. Safety nets for... Exactly. Yeah. So the idea was to start up the WFC once more with a rebranding, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. So the RFC this time. It immediately started to loan out money to businesses and small banks that were about to go under. However, despite this positive move, it was simply too late for public support. The move was seen by the public as a millionaire's dole, that Hoover was willing to help out the rich but not the normal person who was literally on the street. One senator, Robert Wagner, angered by Hoover's refusal to issue a dole, stated that he agreed with helping businesses, and I'll quote the rest, but is there any reason why we should

not likewise extend a helping hand to the forlorn American who has been without wages since 1929? Must he alone carry the cross of individual responsibility. He went on to talk about the bankers. We did not preach to the bankers of rugged individualism. We did not roll out sentences rich with synonyms of self-reliance. We were not carried away with apprehension over what would happen to their independence if we extended a helping hand. So you're not going to help the average man on the street,

but you're willing to give literally millions of dollars away to these businesses. It's that belief that's still that trickle-down thing, isn't it? Yeah. Now, there is sound reason to be giving this money to the businesses. It will eventually, hopefully, help the economy be stimulated and move on. But it's too little too late. The public saw this as him just giving money to rich people because they had no help from the government whatsoever. This move did have an impact at first.

Some banks and businesses stayed afloat for a while. Things looked like they were starting to improve. But the banks, who had been suffering for so long, instead of using the money that was loaned to them to then loan to other small businesses, simply hoarded the money. They were worried the economy was going to keep going down, so they were given money from the government. They hoarded it. Likewise, the businesses that were loaned money didn't invest on making more products,

didn't use the money to employ more people. They didn't trust that the demand was going to be there. So again, they hoarded it. If this was done right at the start, you could argue it maybe could have done something, but it'd been left too late. By 1932, an estimated 34 million men, women, and children had literally no income whatsoever. 11 million farming families were living on farms that were literally just sitting there, producing nothing. They were told not to, weren't they?

Well, they've also gone bankrupt. The land's worthless, everything's worthless, everything's covered in dust because of the drought and the dust storms. It's not good. No. Hoover, getting desperate, leaned hard into denial. Surely

it's not that bad. He had the Surgeon General make a statement that the health of the citizens of the nation was actually better now than it used to be. Record levels of uh Yeah, with record levels of lowest obesity in the population. Oh, yeah, exactly. That's good.

In fact, I'll quote the Surgeon General. Our people have been protected from hunger and cold, he said, just ignoring the many, many, many, many people who were not being protected from hunger and cold. Yeah, who were very hungry and quite cold. According to the administration, the homeless were in fact being so well looked after by volunteer efforts that their lives were actually better than ever. The Surgeon General perpetuated the myth that homeless men were probably getting

up to 10 meals a day. They've never had it so good. There's so much volunteer action going on, they're just walking from shelter to shelter and just laughing as they quaff down soup. Wow. Yeah. The Secretary of the Interior announced, and I'll quote again, "...our children are apt to profit rather than suffer from what's going on." Because apparently parents were far more attentive to their children's needs than ever before, now that little Johnny and littleny were crying with hunger it just

just teaches you to care a bit more about the good things in life doesn't it yeah by this point some towns and cities in the city were approaching over 50 percent unemployment wow yeah it keeps getting worse i thought 25 was Yeah. To be fair, that's not national, but that is, especially in really industrial areas. Yeah. Yeah, you're hitting 50%. Hoover was still, of course, fixated on balancing the budget. He appeared personally in Congress to push for,

that's right, another tax increase. Another one. Yeah. He did eventually crack, however, and he signed the Emergency Relief and Construction Act. This was a $300 million loan that was given to states that they could use however they wanted to, and I quote, help needy and distressed people.

Was that underlined? I just love the fact that it's needy people. It's like, it's not people who are suffering. They're just a bit needy, that's all. Yeah. Yeah. Just keep complaining. To help them moan us.

Always want to get your attention. However, Hoover made it very clear when he signed this into law that these loans would be handed out as a very last resort. I'll quote him. I do not expect any state to resort to it except as a last extremity. Now, the RFC, the aforementioned RFC, was put in charge of handing out these loans, and after three months, it had approved only three of the 243 applications. Three?

Yes, this $300 million that was put aside to help the needy, it just wasn't used. It just sat there in government. The mood in the country was turning ugly you can imagine yeah world war one veterans started to congregate in washington hoping to convince the government to pay out the promised bonus for their services oh for them yeah this had been promised to them that's what the government said yeah this had been promised to them. They were going to get a bonus, but it wasn't going to be due for a few years. Now, to be fair, this was an astronomical sum that it would have cost to pay out this bonus, which is why it was being spread out for so long. This was essentially the entire budget the government had for the entire year, for everything. But, understandably, the World War I veterans pointed out that they didn't need

a bonus in a few years' time. They needed it now because they couldn't eat. And after all, they had fought for the country, they had died for the country. Surely they deserve something. In June 1932, the Senate rejected the proposal. We simply can't afford it. Which was true, the government couldn't afford it, but there certainly wasn't any sense of trying to compromise. Yeah, they just said no. Most demonstrators went home. They tried their best, but it hadn't worked. But a couple of thousand, with simply nowhere else to go, just settled down in Washington. They soon occupied several empty government buildings in Pennsylvania Avenue. After about a month or so, the protesters showed no sign of going anywhere

And were starting to really cause quite a bit of disruption And Hoover wanted them gone He's going to kick out the veterans, isn't he? Yeah, how's he going to do that? If you had a protest going on outside the White House What would be a particularly stupid way of uh dispersing a protest i think i think gassing them police brutality forcing them out would be it would be bad um pretty grotesque yeah think think worse arrest tanks and men with bayonets tanks and men with bayonets oh my goodness

this is one of these times in history where you go oh okay that was actually worse yes yes yeah he ordered the united states army to clear the buildings tanks and men with bayonets rolled down pennsylvania avenue tanks squash tents people were prodded along with bayonets tear gas canisters you're not prodded with a bayonet you are stabbed with a bayonet but tear gas canisters were used anger panic mayhem ensued as you can imagine public opinion which was already very low hit utter rock bottom anger at the move spread rapidly our quote one newspaper what a pitiful spectacle is that of the great American government chasing unarmed men and women and children with army tanks. Now, although there were no confirmed reports of anyone dying due to the army's push,

soon enough, the stories were spreading. A couple of people did die that night, but it's very much disputed how they died, whether it was actually part of this push, and it's just never really been figured out, because things were chaotic. But, I mean, the fact is that children had been blinded with tear gas,

a man had been stabbed with a bayonet, someone had been shot in the shoulder. I mean, these things... It's not looking good, is it? Stories of the hurt and the damage differed depending on who you talk to, but the fact was that Hoover was seen as the kind of president who would order troops to attack unarmed civilians protesting outside the White House.

It's not a reputation that you would like to have as a president. No. It's the kind of thing that would lead to you becoming a one-term president. It is, yeah. Aren't we due an election soon in our podcast? Oh, yes. Yes, yes. No, we very much are. You're right. But before that,

Hoover attempted to justify what had happened. You can't justify it. Oh, no, no, you can. Sorry. You can definitely justify it. You can try and justify it. Yeah, because the protesters were not veterans at all. Oh, no, no, you can. You can definitely justify it. You can try and justify it. Yeah, because the protesters were not veterans at all, but in fact mostly made up of criminals and communists. Yeah.

What the... And it's around this time, so you're about two lines in my notes too soon, that the campaign for re-election starts. Excellent. Hoover was apparently impossible to get on with by this point. He was moody, he was angry, and he realised his time was up. He was, however, unchallenged in the party convention.

No one challenged him. No one wanted to put themselves forward to be beaten in the election. Poison chalice, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Apparently he was pleased when he found out that none other than that relative of Roosevelt was running against him, thinking that the Democrats could have chosen much better than FDR. Who's FDR? Oh, that would be the cousin of Roosevelt. The R stands for Roosevelt. I can't remember what the F and D... I think it's Freddie Daniels Roosevelt.

Freddie Daniels Roosevelt. Yeah, I think it's that. Something like that. He'll never make it. Yeah, I think we do some more about him at some point. Hoover realised around this point that Franklin Roosevelt was a lot more popular than he was

I mean to be fair anything with a vague humanoid shape was probably more popular than Hoover was at this time but FDR had a following and yeah it seemed to be going well for him. Hoover did what he could he knew he was going to struggle in this election

so he accused FDR of having the same political philosophy that was poisoning Europe at the time. FDR was backed by the Russians, don't you know? He was a communist in disguise, don't you know? This, we are at such an appropriate time. I know. This is beautiful. The stars have aligned.

They really have. Now, he admitted to those around him, and I quote, the only possibility of winning the election, which is lost now, would be to excite fear of what Roosevelt would do. Now, Hoover tried his best to paint scenes of a post-apocalyptic America. If you elect Roosevelt, the whole country will be destroyed. He talked in his speeches, painting scenes of grass growing throughout the streets of the cities

and weeds overrunning the fields. The gardeners are farmers. This didn't do enough. Most Americans thought that they were living in a post-apocalyptic America right now, and they knew exactly who to blame. Hoover was described by someone close to him as a walking corpse. At one point, Hoover received a telegram when he was staying in a hotel,

telling him that he should vote for Roosevelt in the election in order to make it unanimous, which I quite like. Hoover started to get annoyed with the press at this point, as it became more common for even the Republican papers to criticise him. He lashed out at one point, saying, Once I'm re-elected, I'm going to clean that bunch out. I have enough on 50 of them to hang them. Let any of them make a move after November, and I'll go for them.

So he really starts turning on the press. But it was empty words. I mean, you can moan and you can rile against the press all you want, but it's not actually going to stop the election. And everyone knew how the election was going to go. In 1928, Hoover had got 40 states. In 1932, he got six. Wow.

In 1928, Hoover had won in a huge landslide, one of the biggest we've seen. He lost four years later in an even bigger landslide. That is 50... He would have been under the landslide at that point, right? Yeah. He lost

57% to 39% of the popular vote which is damning. The Electoral College, I mean, this is almost wince-inducing. 472 to 59. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Roosevelt became the president-elect, and the papers dubbed Hoover as the president reject. Harsh.

That is harsh. The buttercream was pulled out of the cupboard. I hope nothing like that is said any time soon. No. It's almost too harsh. If the hashtag president reject was to start trending on Twitter nowadays, for example. We live in better times, we do. Hoover, convinced that FDR would bring ruin to America,

he believed his own rhetoric here, treated him with contempt the couple of times they met. So was it not a good transition then? It wasn't great, no. But there was nothing he could do. He left the White House. I mean, he'd lost. What else are you going to do? And as per usual, we're going to leave it there because he's now an ex-president, a president that is no more, a president who has lost an

election after one term. Can you imagine the embarrassment for that? But as you can imagine, Hoover did not go and sit in a room and do nothing for the rest of his life. This is Hoover. He spent a while fighting against FDR's New Deal policy, and he hoped to be re-elected for president. But that went nowhere. He was toxic by that point, so it just didn't work. And then, in 1938, he decided to go to Europe for a bit. He was very much a hero. 1938?

Yeah, what better time? He was very much a hero in Europe, remember? And he still was. I mean, no one in Europe cared about what he'd done as president. He was the man who had fed a continent. Touring Europe, he went to Germany, because Germany's in Europe, and he met with the US ambassador. And the US ambassador encouraged him to go and meet with the Chancellor.

A man, I don't know if you've heard of him,olf hitler hitler met with the man there's a photo you can see him sitting there with hitler really yeah yeah just just google hoover hitler you can see them sitting looking slightly awkward oh wow yeah there they are oh wow that's amazing. Yeah, Hoover apparently found the five-minute rant that Hitler went on about the Jews quite disconcerting. One positive. Yeah, the two disagreed with each other over the role of government, after all. Hitler was a fascist. Hitler into a big government, government controlling things. Hoover very much into no government at all.

So they just did not see eye to eye politically at all. So, I mean, disagreeing with Hitler is always going to give you some points. I think so, yeah. Yeah. Hoover then went to stay with Hermann Goering in his hunting lodge for a bit. The World War I ace. Yeah. He got on with Goering a lot better than Hitler.

They went and did some nice hunting, which is nice. Yeah. He came away from the experience thinking the Nazis posed a danger to Europe. Really? Yeah. The United States should probably stay out of that. Once World War II started, showing his usual contempt for the place

that hailed him as a hero, Hoover declared that it would not be too disastrous for the United States if the old world fell. Let Europe just fall apart. What does it really matter? What was important was that the United States did not get involved under any circumstances. After Belgium was occupied, he set up an organisation to send relief to the country, just as he had in World War I. This doesn't work, does it? Well, unlike in World War I,

the Nazi government publicly announced it wasn't needed. We can feed the Belgians, it's fine. So it just doesn't really work. After World War II, then, he was selected to go and tour Germany to assess the need for food. So he carried on with his work there. And then, eventually, in the the same year are you ready to go wow or get a little bit excited maybe do a little clap you ready for this one go in the

same year that the beatles appeared on the Beatles Jamie oh my goodness oh wow so there you go that's Hoover what do you think of him? what an arse should we rate him? oh please

statesmanship Americant we've got a few rounds to do first Jamie a few rounds to do first statesmanship Americant. We've got a few rounds to do first, Jamie. A few rounds to do first. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay, right. Statesmanship. Americant. Right, well, this isn't great, is it?

We'll start with the positives, however. But the problem Hoover's got in this round is that he only really believed in one thing. And that was that no good could ever come from the state, but only through personal private endeavour. So when we are judging on how good a statesman he was, I mean, we only really get the positives on what he did as a private citizen,

because that was his beliefs. That said, I am happy to judge him as a private citizen, because I think he does deserve credit for his organisation of feeding millions of people during World War I. It was a genuinely brilliant thing he did. So there you go. I mean, the whole feeding Europe,

this is literally millions of people who would have starved to death if someone didn't organise their feeding. And Hoover was the man who did it. I mean, there is a chance that our families benefited from that in the past. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, he was called the great humanitarian for a reason.

He was hailed as a hero for a reason. We should not take that away from him. You could argue that he has saved more lives than any American president to date for that reason. Do you think, like, it was an absence of responsibility, that responsibility of being a president? Because it was obviously his own personal view but why are you president then what's the point well if you believe that

government should be smaller and not do as much the only way to make sure of that is to get into government yourself and then stop doing anything it's what the modern gop have built their entire political party around is that is that more the re? Well, I mean, we're seeing the birth of it here. Reagan really kicks it off. And then, in modern times, the likes of Mitch McConnell have taken it to an art form. A hideous, hideous art form. Who's that guy who does all the alien stuff?

He's a Republican Geiger. Brilliant. Anyway, back to Hoover. Yeah, definitely, he gets points for the stuff during World War I, undoubtedly. He also helped with the relief efforts during the Great Flood, remember, and he did

do some genuine good there. He also, when he went back during World War II, as he was in charge of the food during World War II, he managed to keep the country going and he didn't force everyone to go into rationing, which, I mean, that's pretty impressive. But when you're big enough to sustain yourself, that's easy to do.

You can argue it's easy to do after the fact after he did it but you can also argue someone else quite possibly and justifiably could have said let's do rationing because this will be very hard otherwise so actually pre-presidency there are some genuine things he deserves points for uh but then we get to bad um i mean it's it's a bit of an odd one if you remember last time i came to the conclusion that hoover had no ideals no overarching philosophy on politics that that blew out the water in this episode well yes sort of it does doesn't it um but i do i do maintain that it's true but he certainly had one strongly held belief that was so strong that in the end it overrode all common sense. I think, I wouldn't say he has an overarching philosophy of politics

apart from he has one core belief. And he is blinkered to anything else apart from that one core belief. He believed that helping people made them weak if the help came from the government. For some reason, helping people from private companies was fine uh receiving help from a charity would be fine it would stop you starving to death but receiving help from the government would just make you weak see the only only argument that would work in that situation and by work i mean is in it's not true but it it works we see it every time is that

people if you get help from the government it makes you lazy you don't want to work you don't have to but maybe it's a different social situation though so it may be different like social value of you need to work to be strong and yeah exactly i mean don't forget he he worked to be strong that's what he did he clawed his way up from nothing. It's very easy to look at people who clawed their way up from nothing and say, well, they got lucky. And yes, Hoover got insanely lucky, and he probably never really realised that. But it's also very easy to forget that he also worked bloody hard to get there.

He was a workaholic all his life. It was hard work, and it was because of his hard work he managed to claw himself out of poverty as well as the look. In the end, therefore, he believed that capitalism had no faults whatsoever, and this led him to think that institutions inherently made to make money would suddenly give their money away in the name of the greater good he was so convinced that the bankers would go oh of course we're safe society uh that he he ended up being utterly shocked that they didn't he did nothing to try and help the depression because he fully believed the bankers would sort it out with a bit of encouragement um he clearly refused to take on other people's advice

and if the evidence went against him he simply ignored it all and refused to take on other people's advice, and if the evidence went against him, he simply ignored it all and refused to believe that it was true. I mean, I'm glad we live in a future now, and that's not a thing. We've already hit on this from what we were saying before. Economics is complex, and I am in no way whatsoever an expert. Not even close. But I have read the views of a number of experts, and it is generally agreed hoover made the depression worse he acted too slow or not at all and generally gave the

impression that he believed that if the poor simply pulled their socks up they would be okay now he's not responsible for the great depression um in fact i'm not even going to penalize him for not fixing it in his four years because that would have been impossible i'm not even going to penalise him for not fixing it in his four years, because that would have been impossible. I'm not saying that he should have turned the depression around, because there's no way he could have done that. But what I will heavily criticise him for is his attitude towards the citizens that he claimed to lead. To put it bluntly, he could have chosen to stop children literally starving to death,

but instead he decided not to on the flimsy pretext that it would be morally damaging to their parents. Yeah. If you do that, you get penalised for statesmanship. Starving the children of the people you promised to protect. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's for their own good.

So, I mean, in some ways there were some positives that kick other presidents out the water. But there were so many really bad negatives. I'm quite torn with this because when I think of statesmanship I'm thinking of statesmanship in the USA.

Yeah, and I've also got to lean heavier towards his time as president rather than before. Of course, because that's consistent, and we are consistent, as everybody knows. But it's such an obvious zero if it wasn't for his work in World War I. I'd argue that didn't help the USA. But because he was so, so awful as president. But also, he didn't do it for the goodness of his heart. He did that because he had a skill

at organising. But this is his statesmanship. It doesn't matter his motives. Fair enough. I'm going to give him three. Really? You can't save... Really? You can't save the lives of millions of people who are starving to death

and not pick up some points. However, you can't score more than a pitiful three if you make so lives of millions of people who are starving to death and not pick up some points however you can't score more than a pitiful three if you make so many bad decisions during the great depression i want to give him zero because he was so obviously awful but he also did something amazing and he's got to get some credit for that if you're giving him three i'm giving him zero i am more than happy with that because that is my conscious clear and that means he doesn't get many points. So that is fine. Okay, that is three for statesmanship.

Disgrace games. Okay, this is a bit of a weird one. By all accounts, he was a deeply unpleasant person to work for, with, or around. He was a bully who shouted his way through life. His racism showed through several times in his life,

although it was certainly stronger in his earlier life. But saying all this, because I wrote that down off the top of my head, and then I dived to go and find the examples, and actually there aren't really many stories that come up that I haven't already told you. There's not many that I could find where you go, oh, look at this one event where he did something awful

it's like a bubbling undercurrent of you just get the impression he was just not a nice man but he wasn't trying to throw someone in an insane asylum who he had

got pregnant he wasn't trying to force people to remain slaves despite the fact they've come so close to emancipation. He wasn't literally shooting people in jewels just because he had a temper. But that was fun. That was good disgrace, wasn't it? Yeah, so I don't think he can score too highly,

but I'm willing to give him a few just for the baseline of, yeah, he was a bit unpleasant. So I'm going to give him three to wipe out those three from statesmanship. Minus three. I don't know. I know it's statesmanship, but he let people starve in his country.

He could have... That's's statesmanship, but he let people starve in his country. He could have... That's his statesmanship. I know, but he chose not to do it. The statesmanship is him not doing it. But remember, he chose not to do it because I personally think, and feel free to disagree, that he genuinely believed he was doing the right thing for those people. He genuinely didn't think it was that bad,

and he genuinely thought that if he helped them, ultimately it would make them weaker. I don't think he was doing it through some kind of malicious intent. I think he just didn't fully grasp the situation, which is why he suffers in statesmanship, but not necessarily in this round. So at what point does it become that he knew it was bad but he's now doubling down and he has to double down his response because

you know it'll make him look weak so he knows people are going to be suffering but he's choosing not to do it because he knows it makes him look weak yeah which is why i'm giving him some points but where's where's But where's that point? And that's my thing. It's like, that's disgraceful. Yeah, I do understand. You do need a certain mentality to hold that belief. He's choosing political office over... Yeah.

Okay, what are you thinking for school? I'm like minus five. You're going for a five? Yeah, okay. I won't disagree. We're quite different with Hoover. This might be the furthest apart we've been. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. But yeah, no, I'm happy. If you're going minus five, I'll go minus three. Here we go then. Silver's green. Right, well, he's done really badly so far, but I'm going to say he's going to pick up some points here. I think so.

He was born poor yeah he was orphaned remember he got thrown on a train and spent a week going across country to an uncertain future yeah uh he then pulled himself up from the bottom through a lot of hard work and a lot of luck he met lou at university university. Then he went to the Australian outback after pretending to be about 10 years older than he was by growing a moustache, which is brilliant. I still think it's a stick-on.

Oh, I'm sure it was. After getting to Australia, he then ran a mine and was awful, but he made millions for the company he worked for. And because he was so successful, he got to marry his sweetheart so he goes back to america and marries lou and then they both jump on a boat almost immediately afterwards go to china during the boxer revolution and was he was generally awful some more he then lived in l in London for a while and went to full-on rob a baron with a villa in

Kensington. Excellent. Yep. He then toured the world, made a fortune just bossing people around and generally being awful to people. Then went back to the United States. He was then trying to organise the King of Britain to become an open affair,

which is just amazing, when World War I broke out. So instead of doing that, he saved the lives of millions of Belgians. I mean, there's a level of hubris in trying to get the king of the biggest empire at the time in the world to come to a little poxy fair. Yeah. He went back home after all the stuff in Belgium, and he sorted the food situation out there. He was the Commerce Secretary for a while,

and he built a government empire whilst he was in government, just stealing off the bureaus from the other departments. Then he became president, and the country utterly collapsed. He became single-minded in his belief that the country just needed to balance the books and everything would be well, and that helping people to eat would actually hurt them. In fact, he did so bad he started ordering attacks on peaceful protesters outside the White House, and then he lost in a landslide. He went and chatted to Hitler, he wrote a few books, he had a dam named after him, and then he died whilst watching the Ed

of Sullivan show. That bit might not be quite true, but in our version it will be. Oh, will be? Yeah. During the first song. Yeah. In the chorus of the first song. I mean, I... It's an exciting life. It's very good. I'm gonna say

it is one of the best. He wasn't in a war. He's in the Boxer Revolution. He was going through Germany and Britain and France and Belgium during World War I. What I mean is he wasn't actively fighting. I'm not taking away from him. He wasn't, but he was there doing interesting stuff during the war. Yeah, exactly.

I'll be honest, I'm deciding between 9 and 10. He wasn't, but he was there doing interesting stuff during the war. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'll be honest, I'm deciding between 9 and 10. I think this is a very interesting life. I would give an episode, one episode, all for his going through Europe thing. Well, that's a couple of years. But I would also give one whole episode for his meeting with Hitler. Do it in real time. Yeah, just him looking very awkward.

And maybe another episode just meeting Gurin to have a whale of a time did you ever meet the Red Baron yeah I think I'm only from 8 but I wouldn't play with him I don't think I'm going to go all the way to 10 because I think there is a bit of room

for some I think his presidency would have to be a bit more interesting than just collapse, collapse, collapse old dick collapse but yeah I'm happy to go all the way up to nine yeah nine so that is that's some good points he's managed to pull

out of the bag there. Seventeen. Seventeen. Okay so here is his portrait it's a bit of an odd one this one because this one was actually painted in the 50s uh way after he was president but this was the one that becomes official there are uh obviously we're well well into the age of photography now so we've got loads of pictures of him so we can see what he looked like when he was president there is also an oil painting of him when he was president. One that's up in the

National Portrait Museum. But it's not the official one. So we always judge on the official one, but we'll be judging him looking quite significantly older than he was when he was president. But here we go. There he is. So, first thing springs to mind, he's obviously from the 50s.

Massive lapels. Look at those. Those are big lapels. He's got a globe, but it's like the equator's going vertical, it seems. It's like the globe's on the... Oh, no, that's not the equator. That's the bit that does go up. Yeah, no, that's fine.

Sorry, I was looking at the globe weirdly. I thought it was on its side, but it's not. That's what measures the... See, what I... If he had his hand on the globe with a smile on his face that'd be fantastic he missed opportunity but i think that gives the message that he's that he he helped the world that's yeah look what i did yeah i think that's why the globe's been put there but you're right i think it would be better if he was pointing

at the globe maybe spinning it spinning on his finger like Harlem Globetrotters style. Yeah, I think that would have looked good. I don't know why they chose this one to be the official one. I think they should have gone for the one where he looked younger, because he was a very young president, and here he's obviously not very young anymore. So it gives you a slightly false impression. He also looks a bit like a shriveled raisin.

Yeah, because next to my image, there's pictures and photographs of him and stuff, which is slightly a fuller face, shall we say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, he's sort of like slightly deflated. Yeah. It's not a great picture, I'll be honest. No, he looks a bit weak.

Yeah, I'm not particularly liking it. I'm only going to give him three. I'm going to match that, actually. Our first match of the evening. Fair enough. 1.5, I believe. Bonus! Okay.

Terms. Only one. Yeah. Because if, obviously, you only serve one term, you only get one point. Oh, dear. Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? It's unfortunate.

It is. Assassination, no, no one tried to bump him off, which is nice. Election, two, oh, he won in a landslide. I mean, he also lost in an even bigger landslide, but we don't count that, which is perhaps an oversight. But still, let's give them what they earned at the start. He won a huge landslide he gets two points so there we go that is uh three points in total for bonus so how are we doing for his points uh 15 16.5 16.5 surprisingly high ah but don't forget that is not how good a president he is it's how interesting slash good how worthy he

is of looking at and I'll be honest I found Hoover one of the more interesting presidents to research I really enjoyed researching Hoover awful president unpleasant man but really good to look at really interesting so I think in some ways

he deserves the points I will just be happy to do the next round yeah oh good god no hell no I don't know, maybe we're being too mean here, because again his humanitarian work is really good, and

he really believed in the whole American attitude but you cannot you cannot do that badly during the Great Depression and get an American. You just can't. Like I said earlier, I don't expect him to have turned it around. There's no way I'd expect one president to stand in

and turn the Great Depression around when it first hit. No one would be able to do that. But he... He started off well, though though he demonstrably made it worse yeah yeah and uh but also with with the humanitarian thing so sorry i'm sorry i interrupted but um like with the humanitarian things that that comes with a slightly um philosophical debate as in is it really humanitarian if you don't care? Yeah, no, exactly. So that's why I'm willing for him not to get it.

So I'm a happy no with this one. Okay. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Good. Right. So there we go. That's the herbs. And that's us done with the start of the Great Depression. Of course, we're still very much thick in it.

And we now have a new president who beat him in a landslide. We have none other than FDR. Now, I did put a poll up on Twitter and Facebook, because as I approached FDR, it did occur to me that this might be a bit tricky. I think just some logistical values is tricky. Yeah, I've tried my hardest to do two episodes per president. And the reason why I've done that is because I want the narrative to keep moving forward. And I want to get bogged down. If I suddenly give three episodes to Jackson, then I'll find myself giving four episodes to Lincoln. And then Roosevelt would have got five episodes. And then by the time we get to Trump, we will be looking at Trump forever.

I don't want to do it. So... No one does. So I don't want to do it. So... So I want to keep the narrative moving. So I've been really strict, even when it's been painful, two episodes per president. But I am willing to bend the rules for FDR because he served

longer than any other president. So there is simply more to go through. And you as the listeners very much decided for me because i just put it out as a poll and uh you guys overwhelmingly like 80 to 20 percent said i should do three episodes on fdr rather than trying to squeeze it in so we will have three episodes but the other thing to announce is that we are changing the way that we release the American Presidents episodes. What?

Yes, which we did release in a little mini episode thing, but I tend to delete those after a while so I don't clutter up the feed. So if you're binging these, and in fact, if you're binging these in the future, it won't make any difference because they're all there. What am I thinking? because they're all there. What am I thinking? But just in case you missed it, in between every time we finish a president, we will be having a gap of one president slot so I can get more research done. Because as we get more and more recent with the presidents, there is just more information for me to sift through. So the releases are going to be a bit slower now than they were. But once episode one is out, episode two will always be out two weeks afterwards. It's just then there'll be a gap between the next episode.

So, yeah, we're going to be doing that. Cool. Yeah. Sounds good to me. Great. Okay, then. That is our episode on this election special, which, incidentally, we're hoping to have, surprise announcement,

an election special episode coming for you next week. Yay! Yes, we're messing up the schedule even more. We've done a lot of that recently. We will settle down again at some point. Yeah, we're going to have an election special episode. We're hoping with a special couple of guests, the writer and researcher, and also the producer and host of a particularly well-known podcast all about elections.

I'll just leave that there as a teaser. So watch out for that next week. I'm very much looking forward to that because all of a sudden discussing this election with some people sounds like a great idea. Oh, yeah. It looked touch and go for a while there. That would have been a depressing special episode. Great. Okay, so hopefully we'll be speaking,

we'll be coming to you through some headphones in a week's time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for listening. Don't forget to download us on Popbean and iTunes and follow us on Facebook and Twitter yeah

and all that needs to be said is he lost Jamie after one term he was elected and then after one term he was voted out

that is so humiliating goodbye goodbye Hoover I was talking about Hoover. Mr. Hoover, Mr. President, sir. Yes, come in. It's not looking good, sir.

What? The results are coming in and it does not look like you'll be re-elected. How is that even possible? Something to do with the starving people, sir. They don't like the fact they're starving. But they should just bloody well work harder.

And the... That's nothing to do with me. The attacking the veterans? They weren't attacked. They were put down. Like, you wouldn't say my poorly dog, Charlie... Yes? ...was attacked. He was put down.

I see what you mean, but it's very hard to do the put down argument when you were literally using tanks. But what do you mean? Charlie was put down with a tank. Oh, good God. What I'm here to say is, uh, well, everyone... Well, we poured some straws, and

it's down to me to say it's, uh, it's time for you to concede. Never. I will never concede. Sir, you can't win. It's the right thing to do. What if I barricade myself in the White House? It's not actually going to achieve anything, is it, sir? Why not?

Well, you'll just be removed. Tanks? Yes, sir. Tanks. No, it's the only way, sir. There's no way forward. What if we just wait around a bit longer? It might turn around. They love my personality. You love my personality, don't you? You're on track to win only four states, sir.

Four? There's no turning around. Like I say, conceding really is the only option here. Well, I have a speech half prepared. I suppose I could change win to lose, but... I'm not going to... No, I'm not going to lose. No, what... What if I claim fraud? What?

The votes were illegal. I'm sorry, the votes are illegal? Yes. What evidence would we put forth to suggest the votes are, sorry, was it illegal votes? Illegal votes. I mean, if I just keep saying there are illegal votes, then people will keep believing that there are illegal votes. And then I can keep being president because I keep saying I'm president. I'll keep saying I won the states even though, even... This is a stupid idea, isn't it?

I've written the concession speech, sir. Yes, you're right. This is obviously the best way for the country. It's the best of the future. Well done, sir. Well, I mean, you've won, essentially. I mean, you've potentially won yourself a bottle of whiskey

yes there were several messages back and forth between Jamie and I over the last week where we both felt confident in our victory of the whiskey it was flip flop like three times a day at one point

it was quite amusing Wednesday was tough I'm going to tell you that Wednesday but I knew it was going to be It was flip-flopped like three times a day at one point. It was quite amusing. Wednesday was tough, I'm going to tell you that. But I knew it was going to be. But even though in my head I knew it was going to be, it still emotionally was a tough day, Wednesday. But also, even the colleagues at my school as well, they'll be shaving my beard off when Biden wins.

If, sorry, if Biden wins. Jamie, the beard's going. The beard's going. Yeah, the beard's going. I haven't seen my chin in about ten years. What if it's changed? Are you going to do it live on air? I'm going to film it, yeah, I'll film it. Yeah. While I was drinking an American

whiskey. Nice. No, I can't get myself one. That would be cheating. No, I'll just get you one. It's fine. And that son of a mother online say, hey, Rob, have this Lagavulin 16. It's like, yeah, go for it. Expensive ones. Well, I was thinking what we should definitely do is I'll put a poll up on Twitter and on Facebook

so we can all decide what whiskey it is that you're going to buy me, Jamie. Yeah, that's fine, yeah. Am I making the choices or are you? We'll let our listeners choose what you buy me. Number 7, Jack Daniels. 50 CL.

Tell you what, we can both choose two whiskies each and then we'll put them to the vote. It's your whisky. I think it's only fair you should choose them. Okay. Within a certain price limit. Sorry, I am literally just scrolling through Twitter to see if there's any more news. That's just a dog's eye. I'll be doing that all the way through the episode, and I'm like, you know...

Right, this is me putting my phone down so I can concentrate on the episode. Oh my goodness. What? No, nothing, it's fine. They've just found another state. It would not surprise me. Biden's Nevada edge, he's growing. Yeah, yeah.

That was 20 minutes ago, though. Yeah, it's done. It's growing. Yeah, yeah. That was 20 minutes ago, though. Yeah, it's dumb. It's a Dundale, Jamie. We shall see. How deep down the rabbit hole did you get? In terms of... Well, Twitter was quite a fun day yesterday. Yeah.

I was there to the point where I realised I was now starting to look up individual counties to see what kind of results... Yeah, yeah. I wasn't that far. I went deep down the point where I realised I was now starting to look up individual counties to see what kind of results. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't that far. I went deep down the rabbit hole. But, yeah, it's fine. Okay.

I've not had much sleep this week either. I'm really tired this week. I think it's just the emotional drain. It is. And the waking up every hour to check if anything's happened. Yeah. And taking about half an hour to check if anything's happened. Yeah. And taking about half an hour to get back to sleep. Wednesday morning, I woke up at two.

I made the mistake of looking at my phone. I didn't get back to sleep again. Yeah. It was awful. I was watching the results coming in. Right, we should probably start the episode. Oh, yeah. We're doing Herbert Hoover, apparently.

Who? I wrote these notes what feel like a lifetime ago, now I'll be honest, Jamie. And I'm trying to get my head into politics from a hundred years ago instead of politics right now. That's fine, that's fine. Back to past us, who are about to start the episode. What? Back to future us, surely? No. Back, uh, what? I'm confused.

But I also need... You just warped my mind. But I also need a... Oh, but before we start, Futurus has a little message to give. Thanks, Pastus. I'm confused. Now I need... Cheers, Futurus.

So, anyway. And then, right, I'll be able to splice all that together. That's fine. That will definitely work. That was like an episode of Star Trek. That was insane. now I need cheers futurists so anyway and then right I'll be able to splice all that together that's fine that will definitely work that was like an episode of Star Trek

that was insane it works it's fine we've caused some sort of paradox now oh no Trump's winning no no

I take it back someone said question is who will give him first, Trump or Jamie? Who is first to concede? That's a damn good question. That is a good question.

Maybe he's holding out for you. Maybe he's in the White House going, until Jamie gives up that bottle of whiskey, I'm going nowhere.