American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 4.1 James Madison

Episode Date: May 26, 2018

  Slight, small and stiff. This is how Madison was described by his contemporaries (about his personality - get your mind out the gutter). However, those that underestimated him soon learned: sharp things often come in small packages. Find out how Madison overcame his doubts and fear over his health to rise to become the co-leader of ‘Madison’s Party’. Oh, just hide any pets you may have…

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, James Madison, part one. Hello and welcome to American Presidents. So tell us, rank him. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is episode 4.1, James Madison. Ooh, not that familiar with his name. Never met a James before then. I've met a James.

Oh, more than Madison then. I've heard it, but if you'd mentioned him, I wouldn't have said, oh, he's a president. So you don't know much about him then? I don't know anything about him. Okay, well, let's jump straight in, shall we? Yeah. Madison, who's also known as father of the Constitution. Oh, why?

He gave birth to the Constitution. Oh. Figuratively, I hope. Oh, no. We'll find out later on. I hope that's very literal. Yes. Like Jefferson, was born into the Virginian aristocracy.

Right. His great-great-grandfather had arrived in the New World, landing in the mid-1600s. His name was John. John Madison. And he came over with 11 of the men. Well, John had paid for the passage of these 11 men, which was kind of him. I think that's an ulterior motive for all of this. Yes, definitely.

In return, they indentured themselves to him for at least four years each. Basically servants. Yeah. I'll work with you for four years if you pay for me to live in servitude. Yeah, pay for me to get over there and I'll become your servant for four years.

And then if I haven't died by the end, I should be able to get some of my own land and become a tobacco farmer and become rich. Yay. It was the dream. Yeah, well, John did fairly well and soon was indenturing more men and his land grew and his tobacco farms started up.

His son followed in his footsteps, building the plantation and supplementing income with his shipbuilding skills. Always good to have a talent. Real ships or little model boats in bottles? Oh, you know what? I just read ship building skills, but I didn't think to check. I apologise, Jeremy.

I think it's little matchstick ones. Yeah, in a bottle. Yeah, ships in a bottle. That's what he used to do. He invented them. They weren't that impressive, though, because they were like massive bottles and tiny ships that could obviously just go through the neck.

Yeah. Or little bottles of massive matchsticks. So it's like, you know, you get those original boats where it's basically a log with a hole in the middle. That's all it is. A log canoe. Yeah. He experimented a lot.

He did lots of different versions. Yeah, it's good to try different ones. Anyway, he grew up, grew older and died. People do. As people do. He had a son, though, now third generation. His name was Ambrose. Ambrose Madison.

He also grew the family fortune, buying more land. third generation. His name was Ambrose. Ambrose Madison. He also grew the family fortune, buying more land. And like other planters, Ambrose soon found that fewer men were willing to indenture themselves. Because it was horrible. So people stopped doing it. But not to worry. There's all these new fellas coming across

and you buy them once. And it's all sorted. Wonderful, they thought. They had to pay them either. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, so slavery starts coming into the Madison family, as it did for all in the Madison family's class at the time. However, one day Ambrose suddenly became ill and died.

Because I said that in a slightly more dramatic way than his father, you know there's more to this story. Yeah. Because three slaves were quickly accused of poisoning him. One, a man named Pompey, was hanged. The Roman stuff again. It's everywhere. The others were found to be concerned in the crime.

There's a quote there. They were given 29 lashes each, which would have ripped their backs to ribbons. Yeah. I can completely relate to that. i've seen 12 years a slave yeah is that you relating in the same way that john adams used to be able to relate to slavery yeah exactly the same way yeah yeah now as you can imagine fear of slaves poisoning their masters was quite common in virginia at the time so punishments were very harsh a woman was burnt at the stake not so punishments were very harsh. A woman was burnt at the stake not long after this when she was accused of the same crime. In order that slaves did not get ideas, also, these deaths were usually hushed up. Let's

not talk about it, it doesn't happen. No one gets any ideas. So his grandson, our James Madison who we're looking at today, perhaps didn't even know that his grandfather was murdered by his slaves. Or at least if he did, it would have been a family secret. Still, Ambrose's widow then raised the children, including James Madison Senior. An unusual name to give to a child, but they had hopes for him. Yeah, yeah. James Senior was particularly hardworking.

He was someone who liked to make money. He lived the American dream. Was he a potential sociopath, just hardworking, manipulative? Well, I didn't read much about him, but what I saw, I gathered that he knew how to make a quick book. And that was important to him. He also knew how to save a hard book. That's good. Yeah.

So he'd do anything like renting out his slaves, selling plants of wood, he oversaw building constructions, he was a jack-of-all-trades but also a plantation owner by the sounds of it. So any way to make money. But he'd also do slightly more dubious things like hiring his slaves out as I just mentioned, but

to put out fires. Oh, there's no... Yeah, I'm just reminded of Crassus here, who would stand by burning buildings in Rome and go, I could put it out for you if you sell the building to me first. Oh. Yeah. Firing your slaves out to put out fires.

It's a bit morally dubious. A little bit. Yeah. But still, it's what he used to do. And sure enough, the family fortunes were going up. James Senior married a woman named Nellie, and together they had a son, James Madison Junior. Although everyone called him Jemmy to begin with. Jemmy.

Little Jemmy. That's a stupid name. Oh, that's a bit mean to Jemmy. Sounds a bit like Jamie. Yes, it does. And that's a stupid name. Oh, that's a bit mean to Jamie. Sounds a bit like Jamie. Yes, it does. And that's a stupid name. Oh, your self-hatred's coming to the fore again, Jamie. It is.

Oh, sorry. Yeah. Now say something nice about yourself. I hate myself really well. Better than anyone else. Is this episode soon going to just turn into a counselling session? James was the first of 12 children, although only seven lived into adulthood, but still 12 children.

Anyway, little Jemmy, he was hardly robust, shall we say. Judging by the medicines ordered at the time, and also based on what we know about Madison in later life, he may have suffered from epilepsy early on in his life. Oh, really? Yeah, and he'd also never grow above five foot four i guess that's not too strange for the time though he's the shortest ever president oh yeah does he have the smallest hands of any president i have no idea but um he was very slight he was very very thin and pale most of the time.

The epilepsy, if that's what it was, he often described it as a bilious fever, would stay with him for his whole life. However, despite the sickliness, Jemmy loved the outdoors, as did most young children of the time, because what else are you going to do? Sit inside and look at a wall?

So yeah, instead he'd ride through the fields he'd play in the wheat i suppose i don't know what did you do back then what did you do i guess so many things things you wouldn't appreciate now you could say and join it just sit and stare and think and wish and and dream now he's gone google and youtube yeah you don't need to think and dream because you can just find out the answer instantly. Exactly. Because he can say oh I wonder how far

we are from London. He has to do some maths. He has to do some like norsical calculations and all sorts. Now just Google it.

Yeah. Doubt he was wondering how far away he was from London though. Maybe he was. Very very far. Okay let's say he did. That's a game he used

to play. How far away am I from? Oh, two steps more. And ten steps less. He just went back and forth doing that. Yeah. Hours a while away in the summer. See, you're right.

You're right. There's just so much you could do back then, isn't there? I clearly didn't think this through. Anyway, that's how he spent his childhood. Playing the distance game. Soon enough, he was old enough to attend school, and he was taught by a Scotsman named Donald Robinson. That's fantastic.

Yeah. No description, but I'm saying full ginger beard and kilt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He carried a pet log around with him. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just threw it every now and again. Yeah.

Landed vertically. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was a talented man. Now, James learnt the usual things, threw it every now and again. Yeah. Landed vertically. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was a talented man. Now, James learnt the usual things, like arithmetic and algebra and geography and Latin and Greek. Bagpipes. Bagpipes. And French.

That's nice to learn. Although later in life, he learnt that his French was so infested with a Scottish accent that no real French person could understand him. Ok, me oui. Bonjour. Je m'appelle Madison.

I have no idea how to speak French with a Scottish accent. But Madison could do it. It was one of his talents. That's amazing. He also at one point drew a diagram of the solar system that had a happy face in the sun. You posted that, didn't you? Which I posted online because

it's just really nice to know that back in like 300 years ago people were drawing happy faces in their sons still but when i read that i had this image of you know like a nursery child's picture of a crude son with a happy face with just yellow splattered all over yeah i pictured that i went oh i wonder what this child's drawing is and then i found it we're with you're listening we'll put it back on facebook and twitter it i i couldn't draw solar system that well it's so detailed it's just got a happy face in the middle kids kids were so well educated about that yeah now it's like use whatever you want it's fine it has to be accurate. Just feel the science. Just please get something written down.

Anything at all. We'll have to be assessed. Someone's going to come in and judge these books soon. So if you could write anything down, that would be great. Make sure it's good. Anyway, James does very well in school. And soon he's off to college in New Jersey. Back then it was known as the College of New Jersey.

But now it's known as Princeton University. Oh yeah. Now as we saw in Jefferson's episode, William and Mary was where most of the elite in Virginia went. However, James Madison Senior was worried about reports coming from William and Mary. Apparently students there were drinking and gambling a little bit too much. Students don't do that. No. Scandal. So he discussed this with his son. Obviously, you don't want to go there, son. We'll find you a proper university.

No, father, I do. That's supposed to be my dream. I want a drink. Yeah. Also, just a side note this here, New Jersey was a lot cheaper to send his son to. Okay. Yeah, as I say. But send his son to. Oh, okay. Yeah, as I say.

But many reasons. Yeah, many, many reasons. But Madison Senior knew how to save his money. Now, at 18, James heads off with his slave, as was usual in Virginia, to his new home. On the way, he passed through Philadelphia, and they were amazed at the hustle and bustle of the city. This is far larger than anything they'd ever seen before. So James sees the world a bit on his journey. And then they arrive at Princeton.

Now, Princeton, or at least the future Princeton, like Harvard, where Adams went, had a strict regime. James and the other students were up at five in the morning. They prayed, they studied till eight, then breakfast, then study till one. Then dinner. Three to five. More studying.

Then a bit more food. Then squeezing a bit more studying. Why not? And then at nine o'clock, students could go to bed. At nine? It was frowned if they went to bed beforehand. Which perhaps says something about

just how exhausted they are. Yeah. After nine, you can finally go to bed. It doesn't sound too fun. It doesn't. Well, apparently they did have fun, though, because one of Madison's contemporaries wrote down some of his fond memories a couple of years afterwards.

And he writes of, and I quote, meeting and shoving in dark entries. Eh? I'm guessing just like knocking each other about a bit in the dark corridors. Oh. Oh. Yeah. Also, knocking at doors and going off without entering. Rattata Ginger.

Rattata Ginger. Yes. Or, oh, I didn't call it Rattata Ginger when I was younger. Didn't you? What did I call it? You're a commentary lad. I am, but it was something like, it had numbers in it. It was something like 1, 2, 3, knock up.

Probably not knock up. That was a different game very happy neighbor next yeah um yeah oh i can't remember but yeah yeah they used to play that which is nice um another game they used to play or activity they enjoyed was and i quote strewing the entries in the night with greasy feathers so they just pour feathers all over the place from each other's mattresses, I'm guessing, or pillows. Greasy feathers. Yeah, greasy feathers. Duck feathers, maybe?

Yeah, dirty pigeon or something. Well, feathers are quite greasy unless you've got... Well, yeah, they're oil, aren't they, to repel wolves? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, duck wouldn't make sense. Yeah. Because you'd have down, like downy pillows and stuff like that as well, wouldn't you? Yeah.

So they'd throw feathers all over the place. Next one, freezing the bell. And I tried to figure out what they meant by this. Stop the bell from ringing. I'm guessing when it was cold enough, they'd pour water on the bell to freeze it. That sounds really boring. It doesn't sound that fun. Either that or they somehow disabled the bell and they called it freezing the bell.

But the bell in the university university they would stop from working. Because that would be, I imagine, to start lessons or something. So it would be fortunate for them to do that. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Because the other activity they'd do was ringing the bell during the night. I mean, there's all sorts of bell-related fun that they got up to. Oh, students, eh? It's all right, it's a bunch of bell-ends.

And, of course, our favourite from John Adams' episode, Burning the Cursed John, which is what they called the privy. So they used to burn the privy down. Really? Which seems like a bit of an escalation, to be honest. A bit of pushing and shoving, a bit of rat-a-tat-ginger, a bit of a pillow fight arson. a shoving, a bit of rat-a-tat ginger,

a bit of a pillow fight. Awesome. Do you think me and my friend used to do something the way we used to put loo roll, like fill up the bowl with toilet roll, then drop a match in so you can be on fire then flush it, because that's what you do when you're 14. Could that be the same thing? Why? What would happen?

Because it goes... Yeah, it does, but it kind of puffs up into the air a little bit and you get like cinders falling on your face. I have never even heard of doing that before. No, people don't. I think it's just something you and your friend did when you were reprobates when you were younger. Yeah. Never in my house.

It was always his house. Which made you the smarter of the two friends. Yeah. Yeah. One more thing they used to do. They used to ogle the women with the telescope. Whey! Now, telescopes, obviously expensive pieces of equipment. it's not euphemism um no no i don't think so so they

used to use the university telescope and just point it into the village and just be perverts basically definitely not a euphemism then no so there you go this just proves that students are as ridiculous as they always have been. Yeah. Modern day students are no worse than students in the past. It seems like they had less alcohol back then. They probably did. I don't know.

But, you know, now it's just, you know, a few bottles of white lightning and away you go. No mention of rearranging the cattle, though. Oh, yeah. Which Harvard obviously loved doing, but Princeton didn't. They're obviously more prestigious. Maybe they just have fewer cows. Who knows? So there you go.

That's what he got up to at university, perhaps. We don't know if that was him exactly. I bet he did. But that was someone he went to university with. So he was probably up to all that kind of stuff. He also got involved in political debate. This was the 1760s, after all. The anti-British feeling was ramping up quickly.

He would debate such things in the Whig Society, along with a fellow student, Alan Burr. That name rings a bell. Alan Burr, the future vice president who almost set up Burrland. Now again, James shows that he was a very good student. And this, coupled with his father's wish to save money, led to James asking if he could do his final two years in one go. Ooh, the cocky, big-headed son of a gun.

Yeah, I think he got the time turner from Hermione. Yeah. Yeah, and decided to do both years. That's a lot of hubris, though, isn't it? Yeah. I'll do it. I'll do it in one year. It's fine.

Could you imagine if you were, like, a professor and someone came up to you and went, I could do two of your years in one go? Oh, could you now? Excellent. Right. I get right in that syllabus right away. Yeah. You know, it's when a kid comes up to you at the end of a lesson and says, oh, that was easy.

Really? Oh, was it? Let me get my other book. Yeah. Well, he wrote to the faculty to ask if he could do this and the faculty agreed and then madison begins what he would call and i quote an indiscreet experiment in the minimum amount of sleep and the maximum of application which the constitution would bear so he's gonna sleep hard any time at all, work as much as possible,

and in that time begin to draft the constitution. Or what I think the country should be like. I think he's talking about his physical constitution. Okay. Yeah, rather than... Oh, right. But you got the rest, right? He's hammering back the Red Bull and Pro Plus at this point.

Ooh. Yeah, late nights, early mornings, hard work. You'd need it, wouldn't you? Oh, yes, definitely. Now, it turned out that he trod this line between hard work and maintaining health very finely. Yeah, now... That's what most students do. Well, if these attacks as a baby were not epilepsy, then it's likely that these were epilepsy.

So if he hadn't had it before, he definitely seems to suffer from attacks at this time. He struggled, but he does graduate on time. He succeeds to pass these two years in one go. However, he felt so weak after his graduation that he was unable to return home for several months. Epilepsy back in this time was often assumed to be the work of the devil. Yeah. Yeah, or at least a sign of moral weakness. Now, there was sympathy for those afflicted, but also people tended to distance themselves a little bit.

Yeah. Yes, people were backing away quite a lot. Yeah. People were not sensitive to other people's illnesses or disabilities, so they would just point and stare and what's he doing there they'd say kick him out the door get your broom mavis get your broom that kind of thing yeah which is just unfair yeah yeah judgmental therefore james never admitted to having epilepsy in his entire life the closest he does is uh writing that he's had an attack somewhat similar to epilepsy. Now, James would have worried about his attacks and what it meant for him as a person and his future,

so he would have turned to books, most of which had little comfort, as we've said many times, obsessed with the Romans. And if you turn to Pliny the Elder, you find that he says that epilepsy was infectious. And the best way to deal with it is to spit on people in the throes of a fit. Because it spits the infection back at them. Well done, Pliny. Then again, this is Pliny. I mean, he ran towards a volcano and thought that a pillow on his head would save him. Yeah, it did against that 400 pounds of rock, didn't it?

No, it did against that 400 pounds of rock, didn't it? No, it certainly didn't. So, yeah, so this is the kind of thing Madison would have been reading. As you can imagine, he would have started to doubt himself. He would have felt quite awful. It is heartening. Yeah. Now, one of Madison's notes from his notebook at this time reflect his inner worries.

After reading Dr Thomas Montenew discussing how many men with great minds were weak physically, he wrote in his book, the strongest and soundest minds often possess the weakest bodies. The knife cuts the sheath. So he's obviously, he thinks of himself as a sharp tool in the box.

But he's just, his body's suffering. You know, I see him hawking. Yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. He's doubting himself physically. It's plag, his body's suffering. You know, I see him hawking. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. He's doubting himself physically. It's plaguing his thoughts. But he knows he's got a sharp brain. Eventually, James is well enough to return home in 1772, but he remains despondent,

writing to a friend that he had no future to look forward to as he was too infirm. Now, some historians, wanting to gain insight into James Mood at this time have looked into the books that he kept or were kept at his family's home just to see what he would have been reading because he's bound to be reading about what's happening to him. And there's one book that was discovered to be in his library that really highlights the difference in the world of medicine today compared to back then.

Because it's stated in there that a pregnant woman was startled by a rabbit one day, and she then gave birth to a litter of rabbits. Oh dear. It was feared that pregnant women seeing a seizure would therefore give birth to a child with epilepsy. I guess when you really haven't got science back then and the scientific method it sort of makes sense. Especially if you read something about that rabbit story.

It's true, it happens by chance. Well historians have speculated that James would have read this and it would have disheartened him. Now this is a bit weak. I mean he may never have read that book. He might not have believed it if he did. So why am I mentioning this?

Yeah, why are you mentioning it? Because apparently the woman in this tale actually gave birth to rabbits in front of witnesses. Oh, okay. And I came across this, and I'm not leaving this out, and I know it's a tenuous link, but we've got rabbit birth, so it's going in the episode. Do you know, this rings a bell to me does it something to do with the woman and she did you try to make money from it or something

and aha let's go into it yeah this rings about because i read this and excuse the pun here i went down a bit of a rabbit hole hey let's just hope we don't rabbit on so this is rabbit birth lady Lady Tangent Time. Nice. Which doesn't have its own jingle, but if you want to create one. Okay. Rabbit baby, rabbit baby rabbit Cheers. I'll turn that into

a song. Nice. Right, so apparently this happened in 1726, so about 50 years earlier, in Surrey, England. Oh, Surrey. Yes, we're back in England. That actually makes sense now. Yeah, I saw that and went, oh. Of course. Now, a woman

named Mary Toft, who was the wife of a poor clothmaker, gave birth to several dead rabbits. As you can imagine, word spread and soon medical doctors turned up wanting to see this for themselves. Dead rabbit birth yeah i can't check that out but you would wouldn't you again what else did you do back then go and check

out their rabbit they were playing the distance game they've been playing it for quite a while it's like what can we do they've hidden all the animals so yeah all the privies are burnt down there's nothing else to do so let's go let's go and watch the rabbit birth so they turn up and oh yeah sure enough there's some dead rabbits uh did you give birth to those yeah definitely i definitely did so they take her back to london for observation she's still pregnant yeah so maybe some more would come out they wanted to see what's going to happen next now as far as i could tell details were really sketchy here um she managed to trick several doctors into thinking that they had seen the birth personally by using the folds in her dress and some dead rabbits.

Oh. Yeah. Nasty. Now, some were unconvinced, so they checked to see if the lungs of the rabbits had ever breathed air before. We're starting to see actual scientific thought there. Interesting, yeah, that's good. But, as you can imagine, in the

early 1700s, the results were inconclusive. Umbilical cords. They're mammals. They were demon rabbits. If they've got belly buttons, they must have had umbilical cords. That's why you needed to be there. It's like those paintings of Adam and Eve.

They've got belly buttons. That's a good point. I want to know how they tested to see if the lungs had air in. Ball inflator. It's just... Big round rabbit. Yeah. But I know people can do this

test nowadays. I just can't imagine that it was a very easy thing to check back in the 1720s. But maybe it was. Who knows? Even then you can get newly born dead rabbits, I guess, can't you? Yeah, I suppose so. You can say, I don't think these have been born because they've clearly all got their throats slit. I don't trust you.

They've all been skinned. This was cooked. Anyway, the discussion goes on for a while. There's huge debate. Has this really happened? Then a porter was discovered smuggling a rabbit into one of Mary's rooms. The game was up. It turns out that this was a hoax.

It was an attempt, like you said, to make money. Toft and her husband had tried this before by using a dead cat. They'd removed the spine and replaced it with an eel and said she'd given birth to a monster. That had generated interest, but not like national interest, as it were. moved the spine and replaced it with an eel and said she'd given birth to a monster. That had generated interest, but not like national interest, as it were. Yeah, you're looking horrified.

It's a horrifying story, isn't it? Well, how stupid do you have to be? No, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to even consider that to be true. Like, even just seeing it, just a really botched up up messed up cat with an eel sewn crudely into his back that's horrible yeah it's really horrible isn't it my poor eel yeah sinking i was in the mud it's great in the thames i'm a whale of a time now now i'm a cat spine yeah anyway this earned them some fame so they decided decided to carry on. Why? Because it's monster birth. And again,

the distance game had run its distance and there wasn't anything else to do. So they decided, well, let's try that again. But they couldn't find another cat or another eel, apparently. The cats had learned to stay away from the crazy lady, as did the eels. So it was much easier to find rabbits. So they switched to rabbits. So what has all this got to do with Madison? Well, not much. No. But it was an interesting story, so I looked into it.

However, it does show that enough believed this story at the time, despite the evidence that it was a hoax, that it appeared in a medical book on Madison's shelf 50 years later. It just gives you an insight of what the thought process was back then. And if Madison's suffering from epilepsy and he's reading books like this, it's not going to do his self-confidence much good, is it?

You can tell back then, correlation did indeed indicate causation. Yeah, things were different back then. Yeah, it's probably true. Let's go with it. It makes sense. To be fair, that's the same approach we take in our moment in history podcast. Yeah, but we're not pretending to be professionals.

Yeah, we are. Yeah, right. That's why we started introducing ourselves as Doctor. Anyway, let's get back to Madison, shall we? So this was a gloomy time for the young man. There's some suggestion that he had doubts with his faith as well. He certainly started discussing how the state should not be dictating a man's worship.

Family members start openly discussing how he's a non-believer. He's struggling, emotionally and physically. He's had a terrible life. Yeah, he really has. He has not had an easy time of it. I mean, despite the fact he's born into the rich Virginian elite, things could be better for him, definitely. Yeah.

It's around this time that news of the Boston Tea Party filters through to Virginia. Madison's views are pretty much the same as all the other Virginians. I quote, I wish Boston would conduct matters with as much discretion as they seem to do with boldness. Those bloody Northerners always causing trouble. Sort yourself out.

As we've seen, the intolerably Gittish acts were passed, and this unified the states into doing something, and the First Continental Congress was called. Madison, he's still quite young, he's at home, so we've finally got someone who was in no way involved in this at all.

He wrote to a friend in Philadelphia stating that he yearned to see what was happening for himself. His friend wrote back reassuring him that even if he was in the city, he wouldn't see anything. Everything's going on behind closed doors. As we've seen, the Congress agreed to boycott British goods and raise a militia. And in Virginia, the Committee of Safety was created, with James Madison Sr. at the head. Shockingly, our James Madison also gets a seat on the committee. Weird. Yeah, he obviously did really well in the interview or something, I don't know.

Definitely. Yeah, he was given the rank of Colonel of the Orange County Militia as well. And then the Second Continental Congress takes place, and Washington is selected to lead the troops. The war is on. Madison was alarmed when the British governor for Virginia announced that all slaves that fought for the British would be set free. Apart from the governor's own, of course. I mean, there's no reason to go wild about this.

No, yeah. No, no. But all other slaves, of course. Yeah. There was panic in Virginia. The slave uprising was close, but didn't seem to happen. There were certainly defections of slaves, but there wasn't a mass uprising that some feared. Meanwhile, James had been practising his marksmanship, and he was quite proud of himself.

He noted that he was able to hit the bigness of a man's face at 100 yards. Oh, okay. That's my grammatically wrong on that sentence. Oh, back then, that was fine. I like the bigness of a man's face as a phrase. I think it's quite good. As far as we can tell, his training with the militia seemed to actually be doing him some good. Perhaps he started to think that he was able

to lead a normal life after all. That's good confidence building. Yeah. That's all you need. You need a bit of confidence. Well, yeah, but then he pushes it a bit too far because another attack hits him, or an experience, as he called it. Now, we don't know what happened during his experiences in detail. We don't know how severe they were,

but it was definitely enough to put an end to Madison's adventure in the militia. Oh, dear. So he wanted to go and fight, but he just wasn't up to it. This did not stop his work on the committee however and he supported the virginian declaration of rights and he pushed for more religious freedom something that was close to his heart he was not the only one thinking this because it's around this time he met a man that would become both a mentor and lifelong friend thomas jefferson who had recently just written the Declaration of Independence. Yeah. While the men in Virginia debated what the laws of their new state would look like,

Washington was battling in Boston and then in New York. So all that's going on up there. And during all of this, James was running to be elected into the new House of Delegates. So he's going to start his career in politics properly. This should have been a shoo-in. An easy win. He's James Madison. Son of James Madison. Yeah.

There's no way you can lose this. But he made one simple mistake. What did he do? What's the worst thing you could do just before being elected? Don't run anymore. That would have been a mistake. No. As we have seen before, it was common practice for politicians to buy drink for potential voters.

Madison's great uncle in fact was famed for it. Right. Yeah, because back then voters would be filed into the courthouse one by one and they'd declare their vote openly. There wasn't a secret ballot. So it was a long process that would take hours. So the crowd needed to be entertained.

You've got to give them a reason to be there to vote for you. I bet the way of entertaining people is to give them booze. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you give them booze, there's likely their stay. Now, Madison's great-uncle took this even further, however. This is why his great-uncle was famous. And I quote, Mr. Chew, while he was on the bench, called for a bowl of punch

and had it brought to him, upon which the sheriff stayed the pole and said he would not have punch drank on the bench, to which Mr. Chew replied, he would have punch and drink it and that the sheriff should not hinder him. So, yeah, his great uncle got bored of being voted for and just ordered that the drink be brought into the courthouse as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, the vote soon descended into a drunken party where one voter running in and dancing on the table and all the papers got completely ruined.

It just turned into a free-for-all, basically. That's fantastic. Yeah. Massive house party. Yeah. Who brought in the boombox? People swinging off for chandeliers. Yeah. Massive house party. Yeah. Who brought in the boom box? People swinging off for chandeliers. Yeah.

For some reason, like, different coloured lights flashing. Yeah, different coloured candles. It was quite hard to do back then. But they managed it. Some guy selling packets of white powder. Yeah, just in the corner. Yeah. And then the phones released.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, a phone party. That's when the techno starts hitting. Back to in the morning. There's one person still trying to count the votes. Yeah. Anyway, Madison had obviously grown up hearing these stories and also seeing how people have done similar things in the past.

However, this was back in 1745. And this was in the past. And, this was back in 1745. And this was in the past. And Madison saw how serious things were. Now, we're at war. We're fighting for our freedom. This needs to be done correctly. If we can't do this correctly, then we don't deserve to be a country. So he decided not to supply drinks for his voters.

Oh, what a fool. However, he was running against Charles Porter. Porter may have had many qualities that placed him above Madison. To be honest, I don't really know. But right now, the most important quality he had was that he was a barkeep. Oh, yeah. So he just threw his stock open to all the disgruntled voters.

I'm going to give you one guess who won that vote. A bit embarrassing. However, Madison was, one, hardworking, two, genuinely quite bright, and three, perhaps most importantly, named Madison. So it was not long before a seat was just kind of found for him. Oh, what's this here? Oh, look, it's a seat. You can sit here. Yes. He was soon working under the governor of Virginia. This is where Jefferson and Madison became quite close. They discovered that they shared many

ideals and visions for the future. Jefferson was eight years older, and it's likely that Madison looked up to this man who already seemed to have achieved so much. Equally, Jefferson seems like this young man full of ideas around. It wasn't all good for Madison, however. At this point in his life, I hate to tell you this, someone stole his hat.

No! Not his hat! He was forced to stay indoors for several days. Oh my goodness. Only seven days? He's brave. Several days. That's brave though, to come out after several days. Oh no, no, he managed to come out when he managed to buy a hat from a French man who sold snuff.

There's that guy from the corner of the party from earlier. Really powdery hat. I just have this image of Madison calling out of his window. He passes by, desperately trying to get someone to sell him a hat. Can I have a hat? Can I buy your hat, please? I can't leave the house. We're going to hat. I just love the fact that people couldn't leave the house without a hat back then.

Yeah, I guess the decorum was... Or maybe because of his position. Yeah. You needed it more, but it's ridiculous. Well, it sounds ridiculous, but equally, if I took your underwear and trousers right now, you wouldn't go outside. No, but...

Oh, yeah. It just... Well, maybe if you can keep your underwear, you still probably wouldn't go outside and adjust your underwear, would you? You certainly wouldn't go to work. Not as a teacher, no. No, whereas you'll happily sit around in your house

in your underwear, like you are now. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying I at least have underwear on. It's technically underwear. Well, it's too small for underwear.

Too edible. Anyway, Madison gets over this ordeal of trying to buy a new hat and him and Jefferson get to work. Jefferson's now the governor, as we saw in his episode. However, they didn't have time to work together for long because Madison was then selected to go to Philadelphia and represent Virginia in the Continental Congress.

So off to Philadelphia he goes. He sets himself up in the lodgings of a missus' house. And from now on, every time he goes to Philadelphia, which is a lot during his life, he always goes to the same boarding house. Gets on with the, what are they called? Owner of a boarding house. Boarding house owner. Oh yeah, yeah. Gets on with the boarding

house owner, misses house very well. Almost like family by the end of his life. Anyway, throws himself into his work. He was not the most social of people. One other member of the guest house described him as gloomy and stiff. In character, I'm guessing. But Madison had no time for socializing realizing that the finances of the country were looking quite dire he decided to turn himself into a

financial expert this is back in the good old days where you could just decide to be an expert in something and that's true read for a month on it and then yeah there you go i'm now an expert i don't need any qualifications i just know stuff that's probably what there was there wasn't much That's true. Read for a month on it and then... Yeah, there you go. I'm now an expert. I don't need any qualifications. I just know stuff. That's probably what there was, though. It wasn't much to learn. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, money, you can buy things, not enough of it. OK, I'm an expert.

There we go. That's a problem. Let's see if we can solve it. We need more money. Yes! He's right. Let's put some. Sorted. Yeah, well, I mean, there was lots of problems going on in the war with currency just being depreciated, and they tried to print more money.

In fact, the British started printing American money on purpose to devalue the American currency. Oh, so inflate. Yeah, all of that was going on. That's clever. Well, yeah, exactly. It was actually quite sophisticated, the level of learning they got to by this point. So Madison was throwing himself into that, learning what was going on. That's clever. Well, yeah, exactly. It was actually quite sophisticated, the level of learning they got to by this point. So Madison was throwing himself into that,

learning what was going on. In the wider war, the French joined the war, but were delayed. Washington's men were starving. The outcome of the war was far from certain, but there's nothing Madison can do about all of this. So he just keeps studying and working and recommending ways forward. It seems likely that another attack occurred at this time because he's sort of knocked out of the picture for a couple of weeks. Eventually there was news, however, that everyone was praying for. The French and the US forces had managed to pin the British down in Yorktown and won. Yay. The war was not over, but all sensed that this was the start of the end and Madison was ready. Continental. He realised that the Continental Convention had made a lot of promises about money and now they had to do something about it they got

to kind of pay back all those people that they promised they'd pay back print more well madison took the lead in trying to establish a funding system exactly how do we do this it was hard work but he gained an ally when 27-year-old Alexander Hamilton arrived in Philadelphia. The two of them, plus some of us, to be fair, worked hard at creating a plan that would enable the government to pay off all its debts.

Part of the plan meant that each state's share had to be determined by the value of their land, but this was turned down because no state trusted another state to determine exactly how much their land was worth this was turned down because no state trusted another state to determine exactly how much their land was worth and be truthful about it. So instead, population was introduced as a way to measure a state's worth. Find out how much all the states erode by their population. But obviously this leads to the problem of slaves, as we've seen. Northern states stated that four

fifths of the slave population should be counted. The South argued that it should be one-half. Madison led the compromise three-fifths. So each black slave was worth three-fifths of a white free man. Oh. Yes. That's not written down in a constitution or anything at this time.

This is just a compromise. Yeah. Not yet. Not yet, no. All this time, Madison is just a compromise. Yeah. Not yet. Not yet, no. All this time, Madison's name was growing in stature. He still looked very young. One delegate confused him for the work experience boy at some point. That's brilliant.

Genuinely, if you see paintings of him at this time, he does look like a teenager still. Hello, Madison. Hello. Could you be a good boy, a really boy really big grown up boy and head to the kitchen and get me a lovely cup of coffee could you do that for me come on then madison i have all the plans for how to realign the state's debts right here there are lots of big words aren't they madison good boy give me a cup of coffee i'll kill. Is that how he spoke? Yeah.

Low and gruff. Yeah. Well, he was in his early 30s at this point but he was doing enough work to combat the fact that he looked like a teenager and he was making a name for himself so he got fewer orders to go and fetch the coffee and a long wait and other things that you ask

work experience boys to get. Yeah. And also, very exciting, he was in love. Oh! Always nice, isn't it? He had met Catherine Floyd, or Kitty, as he called her. Kitty was staying at Mrs House's boarding house as well. Her father was in the Continental Congress. Jefferson, who by this point was getting over the loss of his wife,

so Martha had died by this point. getting over the loss of his wife, so Martha had died by this point. Jefferson had planned to go to Europe but realised he didn't need to go there anymore, so he was at a bit of a loose end. What better than become Madison's wingman? Aye. Yes, so Jefferson sets out to find exactly what are Kitty's feelings towards his friend. He spent some time with the family and then wrote to Madison that Kitty possessed every sentiment in your favour. Good news.

Madison smugly wrote back that since James last spoke to him, he had sufficiently ascertained her sentiments himself. Aww. Oh yeah. Smug. She likes me and I know it. Anyway, Madison left Philadelphia with the Floyd family,

headed to New Jersey with them, where they were from, and stayed there for a while. Things are looking really good. Spends a lovely few weeks with the family, getting to know them. Weddings talked about. The two are engaged. He returns back to Philadelphia, awaiting a letter from his betrothed to pin down

a date for the wedding. However, things were tense in the de facto capital. One day, several humbred continental troops, angry about not being paid, encircled the statehouse where a meeting was taking place. They didn't threaten, and only occasionally shouted offensive words, according to Madison.

Poo-poo head! We're really rather annoyed about not being paid. You oaf! However, the soldiers' displeasure was clear, and the Congress met in secret that night to vote that they go somewhere else that they could meet, where they could maintain the dignity and authority of the United States. I mean, we're not scared, you understand.

Of course not. We just want some dignity whilst we debate. It's really hard to remain dignified while people are shouting abuse at our names. Yeah, not scared, we just want to hide. Yeah. So it was decided that they move to Princeton. Madison goes with them. But he soon returned to Philadelphia. He told his friends that he needed to prepare for his retirement from Congress. His time was nearly up. But he also really would have wanted to get this letter from Kitty. He didn't want any to late, so he wanted to stay in Philadelphia. And eventually the letter arrived.

Unfortunately, we don't have the letter. Aww. We do have Madison's letter to Jefferson just afterwards, though. And I quote, I expected to have had the pleasure by this time of being with you in Virginia. My disappointment had proceeded from several circumstances on which I had not calculated. The result has rendered the time of my return to Virginia less material, as the necessity of my visiting the state of New Jersey no longer exists.

Aww. He no longer needs to go to New Jersey. We don't know why, but the wedding is off. No. Yeah, Jefferson replies saying that there perhaps is still chance, but there wasn't. What did he do? We don't know. I've read some speculation that Madison admitted that he had epilepsy

and that freaked Kitty out and she wanted to end it. But that is pure speculation. It could have been that the father didn't particularly like Madison because he looked like a teenage boy. We just don't know. Kitty, who's this little 12-year-old boy you brought back home?

You can't marry him. Maybe Madison just made a massive faux pas when he was up in New Jersey. Oh, like during a big family meal. Yeah, maybe he wore jeans made a massive faux pas when he was up in new jersey oh like you know like a big family meal so yeah maybe he wore jeans and a denim jacket and you can't double denim i've doubled them and denim once exactly before i went to uni that was a huge faux pas maybe maybe he forgot to wear his hat exactly he was in the street without his hat on. Gotta wear your hat. So yeah, poor Madison. Again, he returns home.

Again, very despondent. He found himself kicking his heels. He was a member of the Virginian House of Delegates, but between sessions, he'd just spend time at home. Apparently, he would eat little breakfast, then retire to his room for most of the day. Aw, it's really a bit sad. Yeah, well, Jefferson,

his closest friend at the time, was in France by this point. Jefferson had given him permission to use his extensive library. Remember, Jefferson had a very large library. But the caretaker had gone to Richmond and taken the keys with him. Oh, no. So he couldn't even get access to the library,

so he had no books to read, which must have been so annoying. He'd spend all evening just staring at a candle, maybe trying to put it out with his mind, using mind powers to blow out the candle. Occasionally wondering how far Cairo was from him. Yeah. Two steps further away. Ten steps closer to Cairo.

That's what he's like. The cave had lost its allure from its youth. It was just much better back then. I'm three and a half steps closer, but I don't care. The cave had lost its allure from its youth. It was just much better back then. I'm three and a half steps closer, but I don't care. I just don't care, Kitty. Where are you? Yeah, you get the feeling it was a bit like that.

He tried his hand at natural philosophy, as science was called back then. Now, if you remember, this was the time that Jefferson was appalled that a French author had claimed that everything in the New World was weaker and smaller than everything in the Old One. Madison finds out about this and decides to start taking measurements of animals. Oh, yes. In true early scientific fashion, he cared very little for what he was measuring and how he measured it. Okay.

Yeah. He wrote to Jefferson, I have lately had an opportunity of examining a female monarchs with some attention. Its weight, after it had lost a good deal of blood, was five and a half pounds. It doesn't say how he lost its blood. No.

No. Later in the letter, he reports his attempts to measure the temperature of the animal. Though it remained alive for several days in my hands, it was so crippled and apparently dying the whole time that its actual heat could not fairly be taken for the degree of its natural heat. If it had recovered, I intended to have it made a trial with the thermometer. So to get over his breakup with Kitty, had recovered, I intended to have it made a trial with the thermometer. Oh. So, to get over his

breakup with Kitty, he is now just torturing animals. He's just pulling the wings off birds. Literally jamming thermometers into orifices of animals and cutting them open to measure bits. Feel pain like I do.

Yeah, I just love the science behind it i can't take your temperature properly you're too dead very cold all the animals are tested yes now i'm gonna have to do a a mid episode thank you to jerry the Presidency's podcast for directing me towards the Plodding Through the Presidents blog by Howard. OK. For that story about him torturing the animals. Nice. Yeah, it's a good blog. Go and check it out. Plodding Through the Presidents.

But yeah, it's full of interesting facts about presidents. Just like that one. Nice. So, Madison continues like this. Working in politics and hobbying in science. Just terrorising all the animals near his house. I wonder how heavy that duck is. Let me get my thermometer.

Horses would just edge away whenever he came near. In the end, it became like in Lord of the Rings with the black riders. Oh, yeah. Whenever he was close, all the creatures would just scurry away from him. That's his life, pining, politicking and hobbying in science until the Constitutional Convention. Now, as we've seen,

it was decided that the US needed a better government. Madison, among others, had pushed for a convention in Philadelphia where they could amend the Articles and improve the government. Virginia got there first. We've seen this convention already through the eyes of Washington. This is where he presided over the convention and generally acted like a schoolmaster. If you remember, everyone else was a bit nervous. They made dares with each other to go and say

hello to him. Yeah, so that's what Washington's doing. But what we didn't see when we talked about it before was Madison beavering away in the background. He became the unofficial chronicler. He would take notes every day and write them up in the evening. He didn't need to do that. He just decided that people in the future would like to know what's going on, so he did it. He's right. Yeah. As per usual,

we don't have time to go through all the ins and outs of this convention, but to sum it up, it soon became clear to all that they needed to reinvent the whole government. Just changing things isn't going to work. Let's start from the ground up. Etch-a-sketch, kind of shake the etch-a-sketch, start again. Yeah. Madison and his fellow Virginian delegates put forth the Virginia Plan for a new government. Madison spoke over 200 times. One delegate noting that, and I quote, every person seemed to acknowledge his greatness. Madison's still very small

and still looked younger than he was, but he really had started to gain a lot of respect, mainly because he worked damned hard and he knew his stuff. The Virginian plan called for an executive branch, a House and a Senate, and a separate judiciary. Now this was altered and revised throughout

the Congress and there was debate over it, but as it was Madison's starting point that got them there, this is why he goes down as father of the Constitution. It was his idea first. Yeah. Also, Madison's previous three-fifths compromise became useful once again when it was discussed how to judge population sizes.

This time it was written into the constitution. Yay! Wonderful. A man named Morris was not happy about this and launched into a tirade against the three-fifths law. However, he was very much in the minority. Most stayed silent on the subject, including Madison. Very much like Jefferson and Washington, Madison declared his opposition to slavery but did nothing whatsoever in his life to try and change it. In fact, the discussion on slavery was so contentious that it was decided to officially kick the can down the road. No one was allowed to talk about slavery until 1808. Okay. Let's just not talk about it. We've got too much to try and deal with here. If we talk about slavery, the whole thing will fall apart. That's like really weird, like pre-Victorianvictorian that's insane well the whole thing's been pre-victorian what how do you

mean as is that's quite close in time to the victorian time isn't it oh yeah it's 20 years away yeah yeah in your head if we further back yeah in my head when you start off like 1600s you know the first one arrived well yeah i mean, we're in the late 1780s here. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not going to be long. That's weird. Yeah. Now, Morris did achieve something.

He didn't like this three-fifths law, and he ranted and raved against it. He also didn't want the word slave to appear in the Constitution. He just thought that it's just a bad idea to have the constitution to a new country acknowledge the fact that people can own other people. That's an easy fix. We just won't use the word slave. Oh. We'll just use e-vowels to slave backwards.

No one will ever figure that out. No, euphemisms were usually used instead. Anyway, the unpleasantness about slavery. Push it to one side. We'll deal with it later. It'll be fine. Eventually, a new government was created, as we have already seen. Madison feared that the states were too strong and the federal government was too weak, but this would have to do.

Once the convention was over, Madison moved to New York. He's still a member of the Congress, and that's where the Congress was. So he goes to work on getting support for the states to ratify the proposed constitution. Remember, the constitution was created, but then nine states had to ratify it before it came into effect, and there was a lot of opposition. So this was far from a certain thing. So once in New York, Madison was dismayed to see that letters and newspapers were not happy about the proposed constitution. Writers such as Brutus and Cato were ripping it apart. This is awful. However, then came a letter in defence for the constitution by Publius.

Publius was none other than Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, who had huge doubts about the constitution but seeing it as the best option, realised that he needed help. If we're going to get the Constitution to go through, he needs some help in supporting it. So he sought out of us to help him. He approached John Jay and William Dewar. However, after Dewar gave Hamilton a couple of essays, he wasn't asked to write anymore.

Bill, there's nothing wrong with it as such, but brown wax crayon? Yeah. It's not the tone we're going for. Not really, and there's far too many expletives. The diagrams are good. Diagrams show clarity, but why the happy dog? I like the smiley face on the son.

Yes, which gave him an idea. Yeah. Because he knew another man, did Hamilton, who did happy smiles in his son. And he approached Madison. Madison agreed he would help Hamilton write a series of essays in defence of the Constitution. The three of them begin.

However, Jay soon becomes very ill, so it mostly falls onto Hamilton and Madison to write this series of essays that appeared over time in newspapers. In the end, they wrote 85 essays in seven months. Wow. Of which Madison wrote 29. That's insane. The two soon stopped revising and editing each other's work simply to keep on top of the workload. They began to trust one another. They both knew they had talent for this. They knew how to write a damn good essay.

Eventually, they finish with nearly 200,000 words. That's almost as much as your notes. Almost. No, in the Roman series, I've easily doubled that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, these essays became known as the Federalist Papers. And behind the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence,

they're seen as one of the most revered political documents in the US. Not everyone liked them at the time, though. There were several complaints by people saying, stop clogging up the newspapers with your damn essays. I've got a lost dog. I need to find find it my advert needs to get in at some point but we got your point after the fourth essay we're now on 68 seriously when's it gonna end but yeah but generally they did a very good job of persuading people that this new constitution was a good idea anyway madison then heads off to virginia for the ratification process there.

He wants to get home to his home state and make sure that Virginia ratifies. As we saw in Washington's episode, eight states had ratified by this point, so if Virginia ratifies, the whole thing's a go. On the way to Virginia, he stops at Mount Vernon, as did most people as we saw it, become almost a hotel with revolving doors, much to Washington's annoyance. However, Washington was actually pleased to see Madison, and took a break from his running of this plantation to talk to this younger man, the two started to get quite close. Right. Washington, not in that way. Washington was

nervous. He was close to being the first president, after all, so they discussed potential futures. Then Madison borrowed Washington's carriage and carried on. And soon the debates began. George Mason started the debate by insisting that they would spend time to do this right. If they're going to support this constitution, they're going to go through every single detail, clause by clause. Oh, everyone did a collective groan. Yeah, definitely. You just know that there are many people in that room. You just go, oh. I was just going to say yes and be home for tea.

Which one's a Claws again? Is that the one with a verb? Oh. What's an adjective? What's an adjective? I don't know. I didn't realise there'd be carabba. However, Madison would have loved this.

After all, he'd spent over half a year writing in detail, essay after essay, about this document. Arguably, he knew this document better than anyone else in the country. True. So he was more than happy to go through this in detail because he knew exactly what to say.

And the most influential man opposing the constitution was a man named patrick henry who was almost as popular in virginia as washington was he spent a long time warning delegates that they were about to give up their rights that they had just won in the war you're signing your rights away to a federal government we need to remain a state that's strong that makes sense you can understand the hesitation oh yeah definitely definitely understand why some people are hesitant. You've just fought for your freedom, now you're sort of giving it away again. Yeah, just to another federal government. Whereas we've got the

power now, why would we give it to someone else? Then Randolph, the current governor of Virginia, who had opposed the constitution in the past, stood up to speak. Partway through his speech, he suddenly raised his arm in the air and announced, I will assent to the lopping of this limb before I assent to the dissolution of the Union. Oh, so he's saying I'd rather have my arm cut off than not be a United States.

Yeah, yeah, he was certainly on board. He'd flipped and he was a big name in this debate. This is great news for Madison and the Federalist supporters. It would appear that many were coming round to the fact that, although it's not perfect, the Constitution was the best idea they had. Make you stronger. Yeah, exactly. Unified whole.

Again, you can see arguments on both sides there. Over the next few days, Madison fights hard against Henry's arguments and does very well. However, he had to duck out for a few days, most likely another episode, as he describes them as. Now, do you remember in Jefferson's episode, I talked about Jefferson's letters being used to argue against the constitution and it caused a huge embarrassment? Well, it happened here. Soon, Henry was pulling out some private letters from Jefferson and saying, look, Jefferson,

the writer of the Declaration of Independence, does not support this constitution. Jefferson supports us, he said, as if it ended an argument. Madison retorted, well, Washington supports us. Oh, my trap. Oh, yes. Boom! I'll raise your Jefferson. I'll give you a Washington. Everyone gasped.

Yeah. I hope this is done on a poker table. They've all got visors on smoking cigars yeah there's a dog there also playing for some reason yeah it's a bit weird yeah a bit odd bit surreal yeah my dad used to have that you know the picture with the dog he had a rug of that but pinned to the wall it's one of my memories of my childhood yeah of dogs playing poker it used to freak me out to save some freaky dogs yeah yeah and i must have only been about four but yeah it was an image that really struck me it's great um i think the simpsons moment where the artist is trying to get that image

he's actually setting up real dogs to look at and trying to paint them quickly yeah so let's say there were dogs involved i like it yeah well all agreed possibly the dogs as well that henry was the better speaker uh he was just good at drawing in a crowd madison this small sickly man not great at speaking however he knew his stuff yeah really did i mean's so boring that I'm falling asleep half of these sentences, but he obviously knows what he's talking about. Yeah, definitely. Madison was actually winning people over.

Even after one spectacular day, when Henry was in full flow, a sudden and very fierce storm broke out. Lightning and thunder shook the building. One witness described, Henry seized upon the artillery of heaven and directed its fiercest thunders against the heads of its adversaries.

Another said it was as if he had the faculty of calling upon the spirits from the vasty deep. Ooh. So he's basically using witchcraft. Yeah, he's halfway through a speech saying how the Constitution is the devil's work and the thunder starts and the sky grows dark and then lightning strikes nearby. The rain starts hammering on the building.

It must have been quite a dramatic moment. And he carries on. He's getting more and more dramatic as he's talking. Well, yeah, apparently he used it to effect. He didn't look around and go, oh, that was a big one, wasn't it, lads? Henry will fight against the devil!

Then behind him in the window you see a tree being sliced in half by a lightning bolt. Yeah. And there's two people under there. I thought, that's a good place to hide. Turns out it wasn't. No. They've just been shocked. And because Henry's a man of forethought, he'd earlier that day actually sliced that tree down the middle,

written in it, death to the constitution, glued the tree back just in case. You never know. And when it got hit by lightning, that was written in the tree. But to ensure it was hit by lightning, he glued metal rods in the tree as well. Clever, see? Clever. He knew what to do.

He knew his onions. He did. He did. Yeah, generally generally everyone was a bit scared everyone realized actually this storm's quite serious so they all huddled in the middle of the room under the tables clinging on to each other stop talking now be quiet it's okay we won't vote for it. Is that a tornado? Well, eventually the storm passed and everyone looked a bit embarrassed for a bit. It's like, well, I wasn't scared. Were you scared?

I wasn't scared. No, I wasn't scared. He wasn't. Look at him. And they all sort of drifted off. We're done for the day. But despite dramatic moments like this, Madison, the next day, calmly and quietly just stating his points,

won people over. Because in the end, Virginia ratified. And now enough states had, the US Constitution went into effect. Hey! After this, Madison planned to head back to New York again. But others, including Washington, had seen the effects of all this work and what it had done to him. So Washington wrote to him to say, come and stay at Mount Vernon again. Rest. Don't need to him to say, come and stay at Mount Vernon again. Rest.

Don't need to keep working. Together they discussed Madison's performance and they discussed again the future. It's now obvious Washington was going to become the president. Now obviously we don't know what they said, but we can guess what they would have talked about. Or where you can put a thermometer in an animal. Exactly.

That was always top on the list of Madison's conversation pieces. I've been thinking, Washington, now that you are to become president, left or right nostril on this weasel? Ooh, is that your cat? So,

they discuss many things, definitely. Whatever they discuss, Madison's certainly impressing Washington at this point. Once he'd rested, he heads up to New York and he resumes his duties in the outgoing Congress. He would often dine with Hamilton. The two were close. News that North Carolina had not ratified came through. That's bad news, but not catastrophic. After all, the Constitution had passed. However, there was increasing calls for a second constitutional convention to try and create a better constitution.

Yeah, maybe make amendments to it. Ah, well, we'll get into that. Because Madison, despite declaring many times recently that the Constitution did not need amendments, ratify it now as it is, it's fine. Now that it was ratified, came out to say, well, actually, yeah. You can tell that's a political thing, though, isn't it? It's like, yeah, ratify, get it through, get it through, get it right now, we'll sort it out.

Yeah, definitely, exactly. There's room for improvements. And he was willing to admit that now that it had gone through. He couldn't show weakness before. However, the biggest item on everyone's agenda was not about constitutions or ratification. It's who was going to be vice president. After ratification it's who was going to be vice president after all everyone knew who was going to be president it was going to be washington but vice president that was a job up for grabs madison did not like the idea of the pompous and arrogant

john adams getting the job he was just an arrogant northerner but many thought he would, and sure enough, Adams does get the job. And does a really good job as well. Oh, yes. Really good. Very memorable. However, this election was not as important to Madison as his own election. Many, including Washington, wanted him to run for Senate. His name was, in fact, put forward, but it turned out that having just made an enemy of Henry in Virginia was not a great

political move henry declared that madison being elected would and i quote terminate in producing rivets of blood throughout the land there's a tree split in half yeah this on no lightning is lovely summer's day so it's a bit weird he's just hiring people to push trees over and make lightning noises like those those thunder card wobble things oh yeah yeah there's rain sticks to make it people drumming on the roots of their fingers what are you doing it's clearly a sunny day it's not working henry well madison lost although not too badly considering the powers against him but he sunny day. It's not working, Henry. Well,

Madison lost. Although not too badly considering the powers against him, but he was not in the Senate. But, he's not done yet. Instead, he ran for the House of Representatives. Henry heard of this, and started the US's long history of gerrymandering. Ah. Yeah, he passed a law that put Madison's home county

in a district that was heavily anti-federalist. Nasty move. The fact you can just do that is ridiculous. Oh, well, we get to gerrymandering when the names coins, which will be not too far in the distance. That gerrymander was an absolute... He was. He was a horrible person. Anyway, not only is the odds being stacked against him, but Henry managed to find an appealing candidate to run against Madison,

a man named James Monroe. Shall I box him? Oh, go on then, put a box round him. He was another friend of Jefferson's. I mean, Madison and Monroe often talked to each other. They were close. In fact, that is exactly why he was an awful opponent to have, because if you're going to vote for Madison

why wouldn't you vote for Monroy? Yeah. And he had the support of Henry and his supporters. Now, some of Madison's friends saw this as a complete betrayal, but Madison simply got on with electroneering. He stopped again at Mount Vernon on his way back to Orange County, said hello to Washington, and

when he got to Orange County, he found that most people were worried that he was so pro-constitution he would never allow any changes. Madison worked hard to assure people that there were ways to change the constitution when the country needed it to be changed. That we can make amendments. This isn't set in stone, guys. That's sensible. Yeah. When Rowan Madison even arrived at the same venue at the same time to debate with each other, interestingly enough. After a band played at a tavern, it was a band with two fiddles in apparently, as a nice little detail. That was nice. I like a good fiddler.

Yeah, a couple of fiddlers. And they left. And then James Madison and James Monroe got on stage. There's a joke in there. Oh! Yeah. It was winter at this point. Snow was falling.

But apparently debate was engaging enough that it kept people there. Then Madison rode home. It's 12 miles home and he caught frostbite on his nose and it left a scar that he was quite proud of in future life. War wound. War wound, yes. Considering how hard Henry and others were fighting against him, Madison won comfortably. He was going to be part of the new government.

Not only that, Washington had written to him. By this point, Washington had officially won the presidency and had had an aide write an inaugural speech for him. But Washington was a tad worried. It was 73 pages long and wandered off a bit in places. So Washington wondered if Madison wouldn't mind swinging by Mount Vernon just to have a once-over. Bit of a quick edit. Yeah, Madison did so.

Bring your quill. Madison turned up, had a look at it, and just went, Who on earth wrote this? There's one really annoyed-looking aide standing in the corner. It's my life's work. I'll kill you. Yeah, Madison rewrote the whole thing. Much shorter and generally much better speech.

Soon after this, the first Congress of the new government was in session. Four weeks late, but that's back then. Everyone was a bit late, so it was hard getting places. Washington arrived in the capital and read Madison's speech as he was sworn in to become the first president. After the inauguration, the House of Representatives released their formal response to the president's speech. Now, Madison had gained quite a reputation for his speech-writing ability

and generally his way with words. So who better to write this response to the president's speech than Madison? Nice. So he wrote the response to his own speech. Best speech I've ever heard in my life. Honestly, I could not have said it better myself. Oh, this doesn't end here though. It gets better. Brilliant. Because he soon receives a letter from Washington. Washington felt that the president should really respond to a formal response. So would Madison mind, I mean, if he's not too busy,

just writing a response to the response? I agree. The speech was very well written. And I must say, your response was tremendously polite and very eloquent. Well put. Yeah, Madison writes the response to his own response to his own speech. That's fantastic. And then he wrote Washington's response to the Senate's response. Excellent.

Basically, the start of the government is just Madison talking to himself, albeit very officially. That's really funny. Yes. And then the real work begins. Madison, by this point, was held in high regard. He wasn't technically the Speaker of the House. There's no technicalities about it. He wasn't the Speaker of the House, but he was widely seen as the most influential member of the House. People looked up to him. Things such as tariff bills was quickly passed, and a motion for the president to be able to set up his war Treasury and State departments was passed. Work starts to kick off. In fact the House was very busy compared to the Senate, who, as things were not

really set up and running yet, found themselves with very little to do. One senator omitted later and I quote, We used to stay in the chamber until about two o'clock, whether we did very little to do. One senator omitted later, and I quote, we used to stay in the chamber until about two o'clock, whether we did anything or not, just by way of keeping up appearances of business. Nice. Yeah.

Brilliant. They literally just sat in the Senate house going, sorry. Remember that war? It was a tough one, wasn't it? Yeah. Anyone know what we should call the president el presidente no adams we're not calling him that yeah that was about it really the house in contrast had quite a bit to do the biggest of these things was madison's motion to include

a bill of rights to the constitution through amendments. Madison realised that many who opposed the Constitution did so because one, they feared it would be set in stone, and two, it did not protect the rights of the citizens enough. Fair enough. So he thought that by showing the amendments system could work, and at the same time increasing the protection of rights, the remaining three states that had not ratified would soon get on board. He also hoped that this would kill the idea of a second constitutional convention.

After all, you don't need another convention. We can make amendments as we go. Yeah. Not a problem. However, as per usual, many were not happy. Those in favour of the constitution had just ratified it. They didn't want it to change. They don't want amendments.

And those that did want to make amendments wanted to make structural amendments, not a Bill of Rights. Yeah, like different font. Yes. Let's try on ivory paper rather than white paper. Yeah, that's the kind of thing we wanted to change. Maybe embossed at the top. Well, they saw the Bill of Rights as just a waste of time, basically.

We don't need it. One representative likened it to a guest wanting to add ingredients to a chef's soup before they'd even tested it so we've not even started the government yet and the first thing you're saying is that we amend it well i would say he's not saying that he's saying let's have the possibility to amend it if we need yeah which which is a sensible thing to have so basically you've got two camps of people in the House of Representatives, those for the Constitution, those against the Constitution, and neither side are happy about this happening. Progress, as you can imagine, is painful. Some argued that if the Bill of Rights was literally written into the body of the Constitution,

it changed the document so it would have to be ratified again. This debate took up an entire day. This is how slow progress is. One congressman started his speech with, as so much has already been said, I wish to give my own opinion. Yeah, another collective groan. So eventually they get down to business. The First Amendment was finally agreed upon. The size of the House would be capped. Despite Madison trying to discuss rights, many states were still pushing for structural change,

so this one had the most agreement, so it went through the first. As you can probably guess, this gets held up later, so it's not what we think of the First Amendment being today. But that was the original First Amendment. It was the next day that they got on to what we see as the first amendment yeah congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or the press or the rights of the people peacefully to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances the freedom freedom of speech. Yeah. Right. I think that's a really important one.

Well, so did they. A lot of debate went into this, although not the debate that you'd imagine they'd have today. It was a very different kind of debate. Religion one, I'm guessing. Well, no, no one discussed whether free speech could go too far. The idea of shouting fire in a theatre, is that allowed? None of that's mentioned.

None of that's discussed. There was very little talk about how freedom of speech was important for democracy, just wasn't seen as an issue. The debate was mainly between supporters of the constitution who thought this was all a waste of time, why are we even here? And opposers to the constitution who were trying to use the debate to talk about structural changes, such as whether people had a right to instruct their representatives. structural changes, such as whether people had a right to instruct their representatives. So they were using this to try and talk about other subjects. So very little really got discussed about what freedom of speech actually meant, which nowadays is hugely important. It's interesting to think that people who debate this now do not debate it in the same

way as the people who first wrote it. You can't, it's not possible. You can only debate it in modern times and what you've experienced. Yeah, it's a different society. You can't really apply what was going on 200, 300 years ago and just plonk it in today's society. It doesn't really work. Which leads us to the Second Amendment,

which they got on on the next day. Everyone's favourite amendment. A powder keg of an amendment. But I'm going to try and discuss how it was formed, however, which is fascinating. We will hold off any personal opinions. Yes, I think we will. The debate was mainly around the issue of militias, as you can imagine. I mean, yes, people had guns. Of course they had guns. People had spades. I mean, they're just things that were

around at the time. No one's debating on whether people have guns or not, or whether they could have guns. They were talking about bearing arms in a militia. Madison wanted it to be clear that if someone's religion prohibited them from bearing arms, they would not be forced into a militia. So this is the original Second Amendment. Okay. The right of people to keep and bear arms Shall not be infringed Semicolon A well-armed and regulated militia Being the best security of a free country A very clear statement

That people have arms within a militia But no person religiously scrupulous Of bearing arms Shall be compelled to render military service In person So you can't be conscripted into the army If you're a conscientious objector, for example. Exactly. So that's the kind of debate that they were

talking about. Yeah. Not the kind of debate that you get nowadays. Where you need an AR-15 rifle. Yeah, it's just a completely different debate. Yeah. However, the religion part was taken out later, as you probably know, because it's not there. It just felt like it wasn't needed. We can put that religious part somewhere else. So more debate

followed as to what a militia was. This was important. A well-regulated militia composed of the body of the people being the best security of a free state was a later draft. But then eventually it was decided we don't need to say what a militia was. So after more debate, they cut that section out. In the end, as often is the way with committee edits, the result is the incredibly clunky. A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Which is just clunky and can be interpreted in several ways. Yeah, I guess so.

This final draft was clearly good enough for the delegates back then and it hasn't been a problem since well the right to form a militia using arms was in their mind secure and that's what they needed that was what's important to them at the time the issue of personal gun ownership doesn't really come up until the 20th century it's just not really a thing we will eventually get there in this podcast. But yeah, I mean, the First and Second Amendments, I'm not going to go through anymore, but it clearly shows that what they were debating back then is obviously a very different debate to what we have now. Of course it is. Because it's a different society. It'd be fascinating to see what they thought if you could pull them through time, what happened to this constitution and these

amendments that they created good god almighty everything's flashing yeah probably something like that i guess it'd be as if we still use the doomsday book as a maybe not quite that extreme but yes as a point of reference you see we come from a country that doesn't have a written constitution so it seems slightly weird to us yeah because we don't have anything written down in this country. And we generally as a country take that as a good thing because it makes us flexible. But equally, you can argue it means that our rights could easily be stripped away from us. And we don't have a leg to stand on if a government decided to go down that route.

That's also very true. Which is what they were debating back then. It was all about people's rights and generally states' rights versus federal government rights. It's amazing the difference context makes. Yeah. Anyway, that was a long discussion

on the Bill of Rights. We might need to cut some of that down. So anyway, throughout all of this, many people were complaining generally about the process. One congressman got up to say that they might as well issue a right for men to get up when they pleased and go to bed when it was proper you're stating the obvious here we don't need a right to say that we can say what we want and we

can own what we want that's just obvious some people replied no it's not no we need that written down yeah so there's your house is now my house. I say it's mine. That's the problem. As you can imagine, the debate did get heated at times and at least two jewels were offered. People started threatening each other's lives. Eventually, 17 amendments went to the Senate.

Only 12 were passed back, two of which were abandoned, including the first First Amendment. The other ten came into effect in 1791. The Bill of Rights is up there with the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Many thought the Bill was a waste of time. Very few thought that it achieved what it set out to do. None thought that it was perfect. But perhaps this was the point, because a group of men had got together, a group of elected men, and they'd argued and they'd debated and they'd compromised

and eventually they'd created something that, no, not everyone was happy with. But it was a group effort. And look, the new government had created something. In a way, Madison got exactly what he wanted. He proved that this new government could work and amendments could be added to the Constitution. Yes. this new government could work and amendments could be added to the constitution.

Yes. So he's gained trust of the people that didn't want it to start with. Yeah, exactly. And that's what you need to do. You need to start dividing the nation by saying, no, we're right. You need to compromise. Yeah. And he did that, but he also knew that what he created to start with wasn't perfect. So I think...

Yeah, we'll see how well the compromising goes in the future yeah anyway we're coming to the end of the episode now however we're going to whiz through a couple of years just before the end because madison now works very hard in the house but what he does although important it's not hugely interesting to be honest those few things he does do that's quite interesting, we've already covered three times in Washington, Adams, and Jefferson's episodes. Hamilton and Madison, along with Jefferson, soon realise that although they all supported the Constitution, they had very different images of the future.

Madison becomes a close ally to Jefferson, and his story follows Jefferson's for quite a while. Perhaps the fallout with Hamilton is a bit more striking with Madison than with Jefferson because the two already knew each other and had worked very closely together on the Federalist Papers. In fact, one witness described how in the past they would talk together in the summer and then turn and play with a monkey that was climbing the neighbour's yard. A monkey? This is a throwaway line that i saw whilst in my research apparently there

was one day where hamilton and madison were playing with a monkey in in the u.s i can only assume madison had his thermometer that day i wonder what the temperature of a monkey is well they don't have primates today in the u.s no No, no. I have no idea how the monkey got there. Unless it's Sasquatch. Who knows? But there was a monkey there. There was a Madison there. He got his tape measure out and a thermometer.

The monkey wept silently. But this was all in the past. Their monkey-playing days were over. Madison fought Hamilton as hard as Jefferson did. One small difference, Jefferson hired editors to write against Hamilton, whereas Madison wrote for them, attacking Hamilton wherever he could. We don't really know if Washington realised that Madison was doing this, probably not. When Washington reached his second term, Madison was consulted on his speech. He didn't write it,

but he was consulted. He wouldn't have really been happy with Washington praising all of Hamilton's ideas. The two factions, as we saw, split. The Federalists and the Republicans soon develop. As we've seen, Washington becomes more and more unhappy in his role. So did Madison. All his political fighting

was wearing him out. He felt like the country he dreamed of was slipping away from him. Citizen Jeunet, he turns up. Remember him? He was the hand grenade that suddenly exploded. Oh, yeah. The French diplomat who was the most undiplomatic man in the world. Yeah. The Republicans were forced to side with the Federalists and ask that he be sent home. It just generally isn't going well, and Madison's feeling despondent yet again.

However, despite this, Madison had made it in terms of a political career. The half-formed Republicans, despite seeing Jefferson as the figurehead, were also often calling the party Madison's party. He was up there with Jefferson as being seen as a leader.

And Jefferson, as we have seen, decided to quit, so it looked like Madison was going to have to lead the fight against the Federalists on his own. But we're going to leave on a cliffhanger. Remember I mentioned in Washington's episode that YOLO fever broke out in Philadelphia during his presidency? Yeah. You sounded convincing there.

Well, it did. Madison was at home in Virginia at the time, so actually don't worry about him. Okay. But we will leave on this. Cut to a woman. She lived with her husband and two very small children just outside Philadelphia. Her husband had gone into the city to see if his parents were alright.

His parents were not alright. Oh. They turned yellow. Oh, yes. And then so did he. Oh. He dies as well. And then so does one of the children.

That left the woman on her own with one small child. Her name is Dolly. And we're going to end there. Oh, okay. We'll find out who Dolly is next week. Yeah, I'm intrigued. Yeah. Future wife?

Well, no spoilers. But yeah, obviously, who else is it going to be? I don't know. I'm just guessing. Just an occasional pen pal okay so there you go that that's my madison has he impressed you at all so far um he's interesting he's very interesting more so than jonathan's was yeah just because he's just just like an interesting upbringing the fact he's just a short ass um with epilepsy that's that's interesting because he's just like an interesting upbringing, the fact he's just a short arse with epilepsy, that's interesting because he's obviously got a view of himself,

but he fought through that and became basically the legal mastermind and the political mastermind of the day. Yeah, yeah. And shaped the Bill of Rights. Yeah, yeah, he's shaped a lot. Yeah, it'll be interesting scoring him. I mean, so far, apart from the occasional thermometer abuse, there's not really anything in Disgracegate whatsoever.

No, that's true. But he's certainly getting a lot of statesmanship. Oh, yeah. Bill of Rights. Yeah, exactly. All the speeches. Yeah. But we'll see, because next week we go into his presidency. Oh, and it's a bit interesting.

Is it? Oh, I'm intrigued. But that's for next week, so we're going to leave that there. So thank you very much for listening, and thank you to all of you who've been leaving comments on the internet via Twitter or Facebook. We very much appreciate it.

Don't forget you can download us on Podbean, iTunes, and Stitcher, and you can also join our Facebook if you're not yet, or follow us on Twitter, and we'll send messages to you. Yay! Some of them might even be nice. Yes. Yeah yes yeah okay so all that needs to be said then is goodbye goodbye Ah, James! Haven't seen you in years!

Not since Princeton! Oh, so sorry to hear about the old kitty thing. How are you bearing up? Fine, fine. I've kept myself occupied. I'm a scientist now. You're a scientist? A scientist, yes. I've been measuring. You've been measuring?

Oh, wonderful. Are you a chemistry? Physics? Biology? Biology. Okay. Whelks. Mainly whelks. Weasels. Weasels and whelks. Okay. What are you measuring? Everything.

Oh. Can I see? You want to see? Yes, yes, come follow me into the Exploratorium. The Exploratorium. Yes, I can. Oh my God!

If you look to the right, you'll see that the intestines of the scot was actually long enough to wrap four times round this weasel's face. Oh my God. How? What's that over there? It's still moving.

Yes, I'm still collecting the tears from that one. If you look, you'll find that you can collect more tears from half a deer in four days than a full deer in one whole month. Oh, good God, it's crying. What noise is that? It's like a squelching noise. Oh, that's the monkey. I've good God, it's crying. What noise is that? It's like a scratching noise. Oh, that's the monkey. I've trained it to use the thermometer. The thermometer?

Yes. Oh, well, that sounds decent. Can I see that? Yes, well, that's what's making the noise. Can I see? Oh, good God! No! Yes, we're really struggling to gauge the actual temperature of this. I mean, a couple of reasons. One, well, it's dead.

And number two, I haven't quite trained the monkey to not get carried away, shall we say. And that's... You have more thermometers. Oh, yes. I've got a range of sizes. What's that? That one's called El Toro Grande. What's that?

That's for the whales. Oh, no. Or when I run out of us. Incidentally, I recently learned the color of a duck's spleen. What color? Oh, you can see it's still on the end of the thermometer there. Oh, it's supposed to be red. Oh, believe me, there was a lot of red. Anyway, are you impressed? I'm lost for words. I was wondering... How tall are you? Oh, no.