American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 4.2 James Madison

Episode Date: June 9, 2018

  It's time Madison meets Dolly. Fed up with politics, this wonderful woman reinvigerates Madison's zeal for political life. And he will need that zeal. Because the British and coming! The British are coming! With any luck they will be too distracted by Nepoleon's invas - what's that? Nepoleon's defeated? Oh dear... 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, James Madison, part two. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totals Rankium. The coffee's kicking in. My name is Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is 4.2, the second part of James Madison. Oh yeah, Second Amendment writer, Bill of Rights guy. Yeah.

You can tell I just read my notes. Yes, I can. I'm impressed. Yeah. Yeah. So, impressed with him last week? He did a lot of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

We left on a bit of a cliffhanger last time. We introduced a new character to the story, shall we say. Yes, we did. Desperately looking at notes. You didn't even write it down, did you? James Monroe. No, no. We introduced a lady who had just lost her husband and one of her children. Boats. Family on boats. You're just saying words.

Or was that the Roman times? I genuinely don't know what you're talking about. Boats? Plague or disease spreading or something. Oh yes. Family on a boat. I'm not entirely sure where you've got the boat from, but yes, Dolly's family had fled Philadelphia because of yellow fever. Is this Dolly? Is this the woman? Dolly is the woman, yes. Yeah, there we go.

Okay, but the boat, maybe they got on a boat to leave. I don't know. I have to listen to the episode and remember. I didn't tell you that they got on a boat. Oh, did you? No, that's definitely not in the episode. Okay, I'm just making it up then. But no, let's say they got on a boat. Oh, did you? No, that's definitely not in the episode. Okay, I'll just make it up then.

But no, let's say they got on a boat. Okay. Yeah, and went up the road. Boat on wheels. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. It's not practical, but it's fun. Yes, what better way to flee the yellow fever?

The massive sail. Blow! Blow, Tiberius, blow! My God, mummy! It's almost catching us! Right, okay, we start this episode. Madison is working for Washington still. Yep. But has become somewhat disillusioned. And, like I say, we introduce Dolly, and she'd lost her husband and child. Now, Dolly drew a crowd, apparently. Oh, yes. Her friends joked that she would have to hide her face

when she went outside because all the men who lingered to get a glimpse of her. Ooh, was she a looker? Mixed messages, actually, in the sources. But certainly very charismatic. You can tell the negative ones are from people that were spurned. We'll get to a negative one later.

Excellent. Yes. But yeah, she was easy to like. Let's say that. She was not too serious in life, but not frivolous. Apparently one of her teachers tried to convince her of the seriousness of life. Come on, Dolly. Get your act together.

There's people dying of plague out there. It's not all fun and games. Now apparently, and this is a quote, at first she smiled and afterwards fell fast asleep. Oh. Which is one of the more bizarre quotes I've ever come across. It's a weird, yeah. I really wanted more context for that quote and I couldn't find it.

Why did she fall asleep? Was this a teacher saying this at her bedside or maybe she's got narcolepsy? Well, she has. From now on, she has. She definitely has. She just falls asleep occasionally. Yeah. Yeah.

So, Dolly came from Virginia originally, but her father, who was a Quaker, had freed all of his slaves in protest against the practice and moved to Pennsylvania, where the friendly people lived. Yay! Yeah. But then he fell on hard times. Turned out living without your slaves was actually quite tough.

So, it was very helpful when his daughter, Dolly, married a promising Quaker lawyer. Dolly moved out to live with her new husband and the parents got a lodger in to make up for the disappearance of their daughter. That sounded more sinister than it needed to be. The moving out

of their daughter. Yeah. Yes. The marriage. Yes. This lodger had a name and his name was Aaron Burr. Oh, remember that name? Yeah, yeah. Small world stuff. And so it was

that when Madison saw the recently widowed dolly one evening whilst walking out in Philadelphia he was able to turn to his Princeton

classmate Burr. Remember they went to Princeton together? And basically go Oi Burr who's that over there? Burr. Yeah? went to Princeton together? Yes. And basically go Oi Burr, who's that over there? Burr, yeah? You know? Be my wingman?

So, Burr does this. He sets up a meeting between the two. Dolly wrote to her friend and I quote, The great little Madison will see me this evening. I'm sure Madison was very pleased to be called the great little Madison. Oh yeah, because he's very short isn't he? He's tiny. Oh bless him him he's tiny and he's quite often ill and he's suffering from epilepsy

yeah he's a bit sickly but people are respecting him by this point yeah yeah oh yes i do remember listening to the episode i was painting the ceiling that's what i was doing i was listening to the episode oh wait i came back to me on his epilogue so i was eating up it all right that's nice no i can tell. That's some good painting. Yeah. I had to have a podcast to get me through.

Good, good. So anyway, the meeting happens and Madison fell head over heels in love. Oh, that's painful. Yes, it is. I had to go

and get his head bandaged up. You remember when he fell for Kitty last episode? Yeah. Yeah, and he had to go and measure some animals to get over her. Yeah. Yeah, he was obviously one to fall hard when he fell in love.

He did, bless him. Yeah, he wrote in a friend to write to Dolly to persuade her that his feelings were genuine. So this is a quote from Dolly's friend to Dolly. Okay. Now, this friend also knows Madison. Right. And I quote, Now for Madison.

He told me I might say what I pleased to you about him. To begin, he thinks so much of you in the day that he has lost his tongue. At night he dreams of you and starts in his sleep calling on you to relieve his flame, for he burns to such an excess that he will shortly be consumed. He has consented to everything that I have wrote about him with sparkling eyes. Oh. Yeah. Ew.

Apparently this was a really nice letter. Was it? It's filth. It really is letter. Was it? It's filth. It really is, isn't it? Yeah, Madison has a massive stonk on for you. Falling on you to relieve his flame. X-rated stuff, that is. It really is.

I'm guessing Dolly was loosening her collar as she read this letter. Oh, yes. Going all aflutter. Yeah. I also like the fact that dolly's friend had to write at the end that by the way madison has said i'm allowed to say this about him with sparkling eyes he's there sat next to her writing the letter jiggling about with glee say say say my passion's burning And it burns all night long. Say it.

I will, Madison, if you remove your hand from your pocket. Say she needs to relieve me. Relieve me by flame. Are you sure, Madison? I'll write it if you really want me to. It doesn't really make sense, though. Are you sure you wrote the Bill of Rights? Sourcet.

However, Madison had competition. A lawyer from Philadelphia called William Wykes was also courting Dolly, but apparently he came on a little too strong for Dolly's tastes. Stronger than having a burning passion that needed to be relieved. Oh, dear. Yes. Maybe just far more explicit. I want you to beep with my beep, and I'll beep all over your beep.

Yeah, maybe it was that. Well, William didn't give up, however. No. No, he was determined to woo Dolly, and wrote, so this is William to Dolly. Time, absence, and reason have destroyed that violence of attachment which made me appear so unamiable in thy eyes. Violence of attachment is not a happy phrase. No, that's sort of, I'm envisioning handcuffs.

Her face tattooed on his back. Probably that. Just too much. Yeah. Too strong. Made you a mixtape. That sort of thing. Yeah.

It's just him saying, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you for three hours. That's exactly what he did. Be mine. Well, later on in the same letter, William's trying to show that he's mature now and he's going to call it. And he went on to call it. And he went on to state, now I have a mild and gentle affection for you. Oh. Yeah. And went on to say that Dolly should think of him as she would a brother.

He's into weird things, isn't he? Clearly. Well, she replied basically saying that now that he was like a brother, perhaps he could offer his opinion on her marrying Madison. Oh! Ooh. I imagine William's reply was through gritted teeth. And he replied, to such a man, I do most freely consent that my beloved sister be united and happy. Aw. Poor William's lost out. All that money on that tattoo as well. that my beloved sister be united and happy. Aww.

Poor William's lost out. All that money on that tattoo as well. Yeah, I know. Hours he spent on that mixtape. Yeah. Yeah, so there we go. He's out the running. Madison's in.

Dolly and Madison wed soon afterwards at Dolly's sister's house in Virginia. Anyway, back to politics shall we yeah enough of his love life the whiskey rebellion's going on republicans were outraged by the show of force by the federalists as we have seen however washington in turn was not happy at the republicans there were at the time many republican societies popping up i mentioned this before groups of men who would get together and share their Republican ideals. Washington denounced these new groups in a speech

claiming that they incited the riots and violence that had caused the Whiskey Rebellion. This was slightly embarrassing for Madison because these societies had a habit of naming themselves after prominent Republicans. So there was one called the Madison Society. Oh dear.

Yeah, so when you've got Washington denouncing them all as being terrible people, and a group of them are called the Madison Society. They're awkward. They all go around with Madison badges on. Oh. Madison wigs. It clearly wasn't great for Madison. No, no.

Although I should say he was not formally associated with the group, but still, he doesn't look good, does it? Anyway, perhaps resenting the attack from the group, but still, he doesn't look good, does he? No. Perhaps resenting the attack from the President, Madison was not happy at what he saw as an attack on the First Amendment. You can't say these people can't get into groups and discuss what they think. Our First Amendment said so, and I know, because

I vote their damn thing. But despite this, and with a new wife, Madison starts thinking about getting out of politics. It's all a bit rough and tumble at the moment, and he's just not feeling it. He's got a new wife, Madison starts thinking about getting out of politics. It's all a bit rough and tumble at the moment and he's just not feeling it. He's got a new wife. Yeah. Jefferson wrote to him urging him to keep going.

We need you, Madison. And it turned out they did because that's when the Jay Treaty came along. Yeah. Madison was so appalled by it that it convinced him to stay on. So again, time moves on a bit and Madison works hard, but just like the end of last week, we've covered most of this already, so I'm not going to go

through the rest of Washington's Adams and Jefferson's presidencies in detail. We'll just have a quick dip in occasionally to see what Madison's doing at the time. So when Washington announced that he was stepping down, Jefferson actually wrote to Madison suggesting that he go for it. You should be our second ever

president. Madison replied, reasons of every kind, and some of them the obvious kind, shut my mind against the admission of any idea such as you seem to glance at. In other words, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. And also, everyone knew Jefferson was actually the man to run for the Republicans. This is probably Jefferson just trying to be a bit modest.

Yeah. Go, no, Madison, you should go for it. And as we've seen, Jefferson did go for it, but he came second to John Adams. More important to Madison at this time, however, was the fact that he now announced his retirement. It was time for him to get out of politics. He was, and I quote, wearied of public life. He packed up all his belongings

and returns to his home in Virginia, pleased to be out of politics. He was barely back any time before Adams had contacted him, saying, Madison, do you want to be part of the diplomatic mission that I sent to France? Madison went,

no. No, I do not. He didn't like the idea of working for Adams for a start. He didn't particularly like the man. Plus, he wasn't really keen on the idea of a sea voyage. He is quite sickly anyway, isn't he? Yeah. And let's face it, I'd be terrified to do it, crossing the sea on a wooden boat.

Back then, yeah. Did it take you how many months or weeks to get over? It's at least two months if you're very lucky. or weeks ago? It's at least two months, if you're very lucky. Yeah, it could be anything up to four months if something's gone wrong back then. Yeah, it was not good. It was grim.

So, he turns Adams down. Instead, he turned to the affairs of his own household. Now, Madison still lived with his family, which is possibly less embarrassing then than it is now. And in order to make room for everyone, which is possibly less embarrassing then than it is now. And in order to make room for everyone, the house was extensively renovated. So the Madison household now was split into two and rebuilt.

So the original Madisons had one side and Madison's new family had another side. Remember, Dolly's also got a son. So he's moved in. Yes. And Dolly's sister's also there. Yeah, so it's not just Madison and Dolly. He's got a new family. Oh, yeah. However, soon there was talk in the air. Whispers. Not like that. Okay, that's a bit extreme. No, this is gossip. Gossip about the fact they don't have children. Burr wrote to Monroe, Madison is still childless and I fear like to continue to be so.

Oh, shimlanx. Well, we don't know. We don't know why they never have children. I mean, obviously Dolly could have children because she had children. One theory is that Madison was just unable to do so another is that madison feared that epilepsy would was hereditary um so he didn't want to pass it on to anyone there were children around yeah so yeah maybe they just didn't feel the need to have children we just simply don't know well maybe after having one it's like oh my or two oh no

madison you don't want to do it yeah waking up Waking up at 2am to feed, then again at half three, then again at four, and the concert nagging for attention. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, exactly. And maybe Madison secretly despised children. Yeah. Yeah, like the witches in the Roald Dahl story. Yes.

Yeah, who knows? We just don't know. But these were the kind of conversations people were having back then. Yeah. Less talk of Ro people were having back then. Less talk of Roald Dahl there. Anyway, meanwhile, the Federalists were running the government and introducing their Alien and Sedition Acts. They are, if you remember, the ones that stopped people from being able to write things against the government.

Yeah. And also stopping people from becoming citizens until they'd been there for years, suppressing the votership for the Republicans. Did those acts get through? Yeah. Yeah, they're a bit anti-First Amendment, aren't they? A little bit, yeah. Yeah, Madison was horrified, as were most Republicans, by this and wrote,

It was a monster that would forever disgrace its parents. Now, as we saw, tensions between Republicans and Federalists escalated to the point that some feared civil war, even. Madison and Jefferson stopped communicating through post for the fear that their post may be taken and used against them under the Sedition Act. Ooh. Yeah, so they're fearing to write.

Wow. Eventually, after a lot of pressure from others, Madison was persuaded to get back into politics. There's a fight going on here, Madison, you need to join in. He didn't go for national politics, he went for more local politics again, so his name was put forth for the Virginian House of Deliverance. Once in, because obviously he got in, he's a big name, he did all he could to get Monroe, who'd just come back from Europe, to become the Virginian governor, making sure that pro-Jefferson Republicans were well and truly in power in Virginia.

The public mood by this point had started to shift, as we saw in Republicans' favour. People didn't like these Alien and Sedition Acts because they were horrible. News came through also of Napoleon replacing the French Directory with a consulate and declaring himself the first consul of France. It wasn't just the Americans who were obsessed with the Romans. No. Now, this is not good news for the Republicans, because the Federalists could now justifiably point to France and say,

see, this is what happens when the country has too much democratic freedom. Eventually, it swings back to monarchy and someone just takes over. Time moved on again, and soon enough, it was election time. This time, the Republicans looked in good shape. And as we saw in Jefferson's episode, this election is the one where Jefferson and Burr drew, and the Republicans feared that Burr would double-cross them, because the House of Delegates needed to decide,

and they feared that Burr would cross the House to go to the Federalists. Do they call it crossing the House in America? Don't know. Doubt they do, do they? Turncoat. Yeah, if you don't crossing the house in America? Don't know. They do, do they? Turncoat. Yeah, if you don't use the expression in America and you're listening, it means joining the other party. You cross the House of Commons in our system.

It's called crossing the house. Go and sit on the other side of the benches. So I'm guessing they wouldn't use that term in America. No, they don't have a house or benches. They have a curved House of Representatives and a curved Senate. And they sit on one side and the other, so maybe you do cross it. I don't know.

Let us know on a postcard. Yeah. Anyway, Jefferson secured the votes in the House, and Madison's friends became the president. And to no one's surprise, Madison soon got a letter. Jefferson wanted him to serve as Secretary of State. Madison was like, oh, no, no, no. No.

Oh, he's interested now, isn't he? Oh, yes, no, now he is interested. He's been one round getting back into politics again. He was due to head to the new capital, but then his father died. Oh. Which is a shame. And I quote again here,

yesterday morning, rather suddenly, though very gently, the flame of life went out. Him and flames. Oh, he does like his flames. Sad times for Madison. Jefferson was understanding, but he was missing having a Secretary of State,

so kind of urged his friend to get to Washington as soon as you're ready. No rush, but hurry up. Seriously, I can't do this on my own, Madison. Whenever you're ready. whenever you're ready, I've got a big cheese. Massive. Madison was further delayed, however, when he became sick. Possibly an attack, but we simply don't know. Yeah. But finally in April, Madison and Dolly,

along with Dolly's son, Payne, and Dolly's sister, all together set off for Washington. They arrive in the new capital that is unrecognisable to what it is today. Which is a swamp back then, isn't it? Well, it really wasn't a city. It was barely a town. It was possibly a village with some massive buildings in it, basically. There were no grand avenues, no parks. The main street, Pennsylvania Avenue, was the only formal avenue,

but that was still unpaved. So it was just a sort of mud track through the middle. The presidential mansion was there. It was kind of off to one side with grounds that were still wild. They hadn't even tamed the gardens. Ah, weeds. Weeds everywhere. Crocodiles. Yes. The Capitol building wasn't finished yet, so that was still scaffolding all around it. One of the wings just wasn't built. So, I mean, that's still being done. Cows apparently grazed around the place. Nice.

Yeah, just cows when you were trying to move around Washington. See, that's an American thing, because when it was in Florida, in Tampa, in Florida, they just had chickens walking down the street. Maybe they have a different type of farmyard animal in each town. In New York, goats. Chicago, bears. Yeah, it's up north.

Yes. Near where the bears are. Texas sheep. LA. Llamas. Actors. Oh, yes. Yes.

Can't move for them. We need to make that big break. Bless. Yeah, back to Washington. Lots of cows all over the place. And also, fields of corn were not far from the presidential mansions. There were farms going right up to what would become the White House. That's quite funny.

Yeah, it just was not a city. There were so few buildings that streets had not yet formed. But there were strict plans. The whole city had been planned out on paper because they wanted the city to grow in a particular way. So people weren't just putting up buildings anywhere. You had to put them in precise places. So that meant that streets weren't developing naturally

because usually you'd bunch houses together and streets would grow. It's for the economy. In the UK, that's why our streets were all wibbly-wobbly. Yeah, exactly. So here you've just got the occasional bundle of buildings sprouting up with no roads or pathways between them. These sort of bundles of buildings soon got nicknames based on how many buildings were in the cluster.

So you've got six buildings or 12 buildings. Oh, they're living up to their good naming system. Yes, they are. Should we call this one? One, two, three, four. Four buildings. Like it. Nice.

Any idea for that group over there? That's also got four buildings. Also four buildings. Brilliant. Wonderful. Well, I'll meet you later on on four buildings then. Yes. Now, Madison and Dolly actually stayed in the presidential mansion to begin with for a couple of weeks.

Whilst they found some dicks. Soon they moved out and found a house in six buildings. So how can I doubt was it not really liveable yet? Well, Jefferson was supposed to live in the presidential mansion. He was the president. And if you remember Oh yeah, of course, yes. Jefferson was also

turning it into a kind of museum because he hated the idea of living in a mansion. Also, he just walked around in his underwear all the time, didn't he? His dressing gown and his slippers. A bit awkward. So maybe they wanted a place of their own. Fair enough. Yeah.

So Madison sets up. He is now Secretary of State. He has a house. He has an office. He's ready to do his job. Madison gets down to regular business and worked hard. And not just in his office. Because soon enough, the Madisons became a highlight in the social scene.

Not many buildings, but they were doing what they could. The elites of the country were certainly gathering around, so they had to build up some kind of social scene. And it was starting to revolve around the Madisons. As we've seen, Jefferson not into dinner parties, but Dolly loved them. It happened that the dinner parties were for men and women, Federalists and Republicans. You could come whoever you were, as long as you were a member of society. Come along.

Also, by this point, Madison started wearing only black wherever he went. Oh, it's a bit like Adams. Yeah, yeah, he wore dark clothing a lot. But Madison more so, it was only black. Yeah, oh, okay. Yeah, he'd gone full goth, I think, by this point. Possibly this is Dolly's influence, trying to make him seem a bit more stylish. Who knows? Dolly herself was known to wear fashionable clothing, often very low-cut. Ooh. Oh, yes. French style. Games of loo were often held.

Generally, everyone had a very good time in these parties. Games of loo? Yeah, it's a card game, I think. Is it a card game? I don't know. Sounds like that game I told you about where you shove tissue in a toilet and then set it on fire. Yes, they did that. It was great fun.

I don't know. They had a good time. Apparently some of these got a bit rowdy and a bit drunken, but generally people had a good time. They were seen as the place to be anyway. However, Madison soon had to deal with the first diplomatic faux pas of Jefferson. The first

ambassador of Britain, a man named Mr. Merry, had arrived. You just know he's not living up to that name. Pencil-thin moustache. Yeah. Pinstripe suit. Merry had arrived. You just know he's not living up to that name. Pencil thin moustache. Yeah. Pinstripe suit. Hello, sir. My name is Mr. Merry. I've come

to the college. Oh, the Americas, I suppose. I'm the ambassador to your overlords. No, your your kid. Ambassador for Britain. Show me to myO. Ambassador for Britain. Show me to my mansion. Yeah, Mr. Merry was apparently a bit of a grumpy man.

He was not happy with where he was housed. It took a long time to find a building suitable for him. You just know he was poking things with his cane, tutting. Oh, the hotel inspector? Yeah. Rubbing his finger on the doorframe. Dust! Dust! I shall not have this any longer. I'm guessing himself as mr merry as well yes mr merry is most displeased

yeah then the poor porter aren't you mr i don't understand i'm confused well fetch me another room jeff so yeah he wasn't settling in anyway and then And then Jefferson stumbled into his faux pas because at a formal dinner one evening where Mr and Mrs Mary were attending, Jefferson escorted Dolly to the table rather than Mrs Mary. And Mr Mary was outraged in a way that only an upper-class imperial British man can be. So didn't really say anything, just stormed out.

I, I, well, I do declare that by Jove, I, I've never in all my time. And by that point, he's out the room. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really going for it as an upper class British man. So annoyed that no one else really understands what he's annoyed about. No. There is something.

In fact, that was a translation because the words aren't working anymore is just posh noises coming yeah stuff like that madison had to spend hours in a meeting with mary soon afterwards to try and soothe the ruffled feathers of this faux pas yeah Yeah, it was terrible. Which he just about managed to do, but then Jefferson put his foot in it again when Napoleon's brother arrived. Napoleon's brother's called Jerome, and he came along with his wife. His wife was an American lady from Baltimore, if I remember that correctly. Yeah, so Jerome Bonaparte and his wife, Mrs. Bonaparte, attend a formal dinner. It's another formal dinner. They did like their formal dinners.

Give you one guess as to who Jefferson escorted to the table this time. Was it Jerome? Yes, it was. Huge scandal. No, this was, of course, Mrs. Bonaparte. Oh dear. Mary was even more outraged than he was last time. Wake up!

It's one thing to be disrespected when you go to the former colonies, but then for the French to be treated better than you... Oh my goodness. Oh, awful. Although, to be fair, a lot of people were displeased with Mrs Bonaparte being there. Mainly the other women, because apparently Mrs. Bonaparte was particularly beautiful and also was attempting a new fashion by wearing largely transparent dresses. Oh.

Yes, many women of the social scene bitterly complained about this and said they would just start avoiding the parties unless Mrs. Bonaparte started wearing more clothing. Aww. You could probably guess why Jefferson escorted Mrs Mrs Bonaparte to the table that day. And of course you should sit right next to me. In fact, no, sit opposite me. Anyway, the diplomatic repercussions of all this was starting to grow.

Madison was forced to write to Monroe, who was currently in London. He liked to travel, did Monroe. Madison wrote to Monroe, I blush at having to put so much trash on paper. Yeah, he's finding this job. There are parts of the job that he feels are not really in the job description of Secretary of State. Just sort of putting out fires, isn't he?

Yes, he's putting out diplomatic faux pas, basically. Eventually, though, Mary was mollified when Jefferson appeared to meet him wearing suitable clothing one day. Okay. Yeah, because Jefferson kept turning up in his dressing gown and his slippers. Really? Probably just to annoy him, to be fair. But yeah, apparently it would appear that Madison convinced the president,

just put on a suit, Jefferson. Stop the man from complaining, please. Running out of paper. And just escort his wife to the table once. That's all you need to do. However, none of this could stop the general deterioration of relations between Britain and the US. The impressments were still going on.

You remember Britain still going around, kidnapping sailors from boats, claiming, you're British, so you must come with us. Now, to be fair, many of them were that to be fair many of them were british but also many of them weren't we've joked around about people putting on american accents before but that really was one way they would tell i've read that if people pronounced peas as pays they would likely to be taken which made me think obviously everyone had a cockney accent back then all right gav, pass the pays.

The test. So I have two vegetables here. Tell me the name. What are these? Carrots. And what are these? Pays. Get him, lads!

Oh, blimey, Gavner! You're having a laugh, aren't you? Yeah, so that was going on. And the Americans were not happy, understandably. Yeah, you're stealing all our cockneys. But we're cultivating them. But yeah, not only is that going on, however, but tensions with Republicans within the Republican Party, sorry, were starting.

The anti-Jefferson Republicans were soon doing anything to make sure that Madison did not become the successor. Remember Jefferson's episode? Republicans were starting to think Jefferson was going too far. Yeah. Yeah, he was starting to seem a little bit too Federalist for their liking. And Madison was very much a Jeffersonian man, so they didn't want Madison to succeed Jefferson.

So Madison starts getting a lot of hostile press. This apparent Republican government was expanding Federal powers, and it was all Madison's fault. So things aren't looking great. He was painted as a sinister figure pulling the strings of Jefferson, and Jefferson was painted as a hapless puppet. As international tensions heightened, Randolph, the most outspoken Republican of the time,

went on a two-day rant about Jefferson and Madison. Oh, he must have been angry then. Oh, he was very angry. Someone said the rant was the most severe as the English language can furnish. Lots of swearing, then. Yeah, I'm guessing so. The C-bomb was dropped many a time,

I can only assume. Yeah. One senator claimed that Randolph had crossed the Rubicon at this point, and then he high-fived someone for the Roman reference. Oh, yeah! Romans! Oh, yeah!

We are Romans! There's no going back from this the republicans looked in trouble however despite the internal troubles jeffson then introduced the non-intercourse act right yeah in the hope that this would put pressure on britain and france frustrate them yes now if you remember this was the embargo on trade with anyone, really. Yeah. As we saw, this mainly hurt American farmers and tradesmen. It was going to, wasn't it? Oh yes, this was not working well.

Madison acknowledged that the embargo would be tough on American people, but he defended Jefferson's move, stating that it would encourage frugality and hard work. Typical rich person. Yes, work harder, you'll be fine. Yeah, these were virtues of the farmer, apparently, and that's what everyone needed to learn how to do. Tighten your bouts and work harder, it's good for you. Oh.

Yeah. It would also encourage household manufacturing, he said, which was a great thing. He admitted that there would be difficulties, but stated, and I quote, it would separate the wheat from the chaff. So basically he's just saying, you know, let all the poor people die, and all the wheat will be, you know, all the strong people will survive.

Yeah, exactly. That's lovely. True Republican virtue there. Merchants and farmers were less than impressed by these arguments, it must be said, but it says something about the state of the Federalist Party, Yeah. Merchants and farmers were less than impressed by these arguments, it must be said, but it says something about the state of the Federalist Party, that it was soon clear that the Republican candidate would definitely win the next election. Federalists could not capitalise on this, and many hated the embargo, but most saw it as Jefferson doing his best to prevent a war, or have a trade war instead. So there are three names being floated around. Who could be the next Republican candidate?

Vice President Clinton was one, Madison the second, and Monroe the third. Vice President who? Clinton, not Hillary. Oh, okay. Or Bill. Oh, okay. It's a different Clinton. I checked.

Chelsea. Yes. Now, Madison had an advantage over his two rivals, and that was Dolly. She was still excelling as the high society host and knew how to charm potential voters. Monroe soon stopped pushing for the post and dropped out, pretty much. Clinton, however, hedged his bets in a clever move. A new amendment had just gone through that said that vice presidents now had to be voted for separately. No more number two becoming vice president.

No more of this problem that they had with Alan Burr. So voting separately, as in sort of there'd be like a presidential election and a vice presidential election. Yes, exactly. Clinton put his name forth for both. Oh, okay. What if you weren't both? I wondered that. He'd be his own vice president.

That would just have to be what it would be. He'd have literally own vice president. That would just have to be what it would be. He'd have literally two different hats, so no one got confused, and he'd just wear one, one day and one the other. He'd do lots of work as president, and then he'd run into another room and sit around and not do much as vice president, because that's what vice presidents do. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, cool. Anyway, the campaign started. The Federalists weren't completely out of the running here. They had a man named Pinckney as their forerunner. They also created

the first political mascot in American history. What is it? A snapping turtle called O'Grabme. You put this? Yes, and I put it up on Twitter. O'Grabme is embargo backwards. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it was all about how this embargo was terrible

and there was a turtle called O'Grabme. Aww. Yeah. He's a nice little snapping turtle. Yes. And it was all about how this embargo was terrible. And there was a turtle called Oh Grab Me. Aww. Yeah, he's a nice little snapping turtle. Yeah. And in the picture, he looks so, so happy to be chomping down on someone's buttocks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll put it back up for listeners.

We'll put it up on our website. So they had a turtle and they had a man named Pinckney. I mean, what's the worst that could happen? But no, the Federalists were still not gaining any traction. And sure enough, when the results came in, Madison walked it. 122 votes to Pinckney's 57. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

However, by this point, the embargo was doing so much damage, Jefferson, who was still president at this point, they hadn't actually swapped over, was forced to recall the embargo in his last days of office, as we saw in his episode. So, Madison becomes president, with international tensions running high and the Republican Party falling apart. How do you think he'll do? Um, I don't know. Come on, prediction. He's not a name that springs to mind when you think of presidents.

No. But I'm not that familiar with American history, so that might be the main reason why. Okay, well, let's find out, shall we, how he does. Your prediction of I have no idea, we'll see if that comes true. I'm thinking not as great as maybe, I don't know, he might do some things. He's obviously going to do some stuff. Yeah. But it may not go down as the best presidency in the world.

I don't know, though. I think you're going to be surprised by the term of events. He's going to be amazing. He'll get by. We'll see. We'll see. Let's just go. Let's do it, shall we?

Right. He took his oath in the newly built chamber in the House of Representatives. That evening, they had a ball. Jefferson turned up for a ball. Oh my goodness. It was probably just for a little evening. I was like, oh. Was he in pyjamas?

I'd like to think still wearing his bunny rabbit slippers and his dressing gown. He turned to one of his friends and said, You will have to tell me how to behave myself. It's been 40 years since I've been to a ball. He then took his dressing gown completely naked. Yeah. Got a ball. He then took off his dressing gown. Completely naked. Yeah. Got a cocktail. Grabbed the whole tray of entrees from someone passing by and just started eating them.

Yeah. In the middle of the dance floor. And then just kept escorting different women to the table to see if he would annoy. Yeah. Now, Clinton had only got six votes to become president. He hadn't done well. But he did win the vice president race. Oh, yeah. Now, Clinton had only got six votes to become president. He hadn't done well. But he did win the vice president race. He's vice president.

He's there as well. And also anyone who is anyone, basically, in Washington attends this ball. It's a big event. The party was a huge success. But it was soon over and Madison gets to work. And it was a very good start. Madison could hardly believe it when the ambassador for Britain, a man named Erskine, came to

him with an offer. The British would stop blockading the US if the US began trading with Britain again. Oh, brilliant. Wow, okay, this is a de-escalation of events, thinks Madison, and it's all that he could have hoped for. For a while, all hostile press stopped.

No fault could be found with this new president, even from Federalist papers. He seemed to just make a deal with Britain straight away and trade started up again and everyone was happy and it looked like the two countries could start talking about things like impressment again and we're on the right path. Yeah. However, it did not last long

because it turned out that Britain, upon hearing what Erskine had promised, were not happy. Now, either Erskine had overstepped his brief or the government in Britain had had a change of heart. Yeah. Erskine was soon replaced with a man named Jackson. Now, get your image of Mr. Merry, the ambassador from Britain. Yeah. Dial him up in the upper class Britishometer. Ooh.

Ooh. Jackson was known for his literal gunboat diplomacy. Oh. He had recently been in Copenhagen, where he had demanded that the Danes surrender their fleet. The Prince Regent in Denmark refused, so Jackson ordered the capital be bombarded, killing 3,000 militiamen and 200 civilians. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

And if you're not from Britain and you ever want to know how we teach the British Empire in this country, I had never heard of this before. Just slaughtered almost 3,500 Danes. Yeah. What the hell? Because they didn't show enough respect. There is a reason why everyone hated Britain and a lot still hate Britain today. I'm not surprised.

We did some awful things. So anyway, he finished killing Danes and then went off to America to become the ambassador for the US. And you can probably guess, he was not in the US to make peace. Upon meeting the President and his wife, he described Madison as plain, and Dolly as fat, 40, and not fair. Ooh, a lot of alliteration there. Oh yeah, he loved his alliteration.

Oh wow. As you can see, not everyone was kind about Dolly and her appearance. However, Madison had a plan for dealing with Jackson. Yeah. Just imagine him standing there seething. Because in my head, I'm sure in real life, Jackson said that to someone else as an aside. But in my head, he literally walked into a room,

met Madison for the first time, and Dolly standing next to him, just pointed at Madison, just said, You there, you're very plain. This your wife? Fat 40 and not fair. And then he just walked out, snapped his fingers and said, you there, you're very plain. This your wife? Fat 40 and not fair. And then he just walked out, snapped his fingers and said, come on. Servants picked him up, turned him round and walked him out.

Yeah. Oh. That, in my head, is how they met. Yeah. So Madison, obviously, twitching slightly. Open mouth. What the? Who is that?

That's the new ambassador for Britain. Oh dear. Now it all makes sense. Yeah, well, Madison wrote formally through his war secretary to Jackson, asking why the British had gone back on their deal that he'd made with Erskine. Jackson wrote back saying that Erskine and the president had connived together to ignore some of the British proposals in the deal. So this deal that Madison and Erskine had hammered out, Jackson was saying was obviously just going against what Britain actually wanted to happen. You have somehow turned Erskine against us.

Madison wrote back politely denying this. No, this isn't true. We entered this agreement in good faith and we are confused that you're not honouring this deal. Jackson wrote back again, rudely and bluntly saying, no, you're trying to corrupt our ambassadors. Madison then leaked the correspondence to the papers. Beautiful. He'd made sure that the American responses were all very polite and all very proper, and Jackson just came across as a bit of a bully. Yeah.

And an arrogant one at that. Brilliant. Straight away, public mood turned against this rude ambassador. Now, don't forget, there were a lot of Federalists who were pro-Britain in the country. Britain is not hated by everyone. No. So this did a lot to turn those who were going, oh, actually, I think Jackson's probably on the right side here.

It did a lot to turn people against Jackson. Jackson himself not impressed. And I quote, I ain't game but bear to treat with regular governments and have had to do with a mob and its mob leaders. Good God. Pish posh. So, Madison won up on the ambassador to Britain.

Nice. However, war's back on. Ah, okay. Yeah, relations are deteriorating fast. Madison gained permission from Congress to raise a 100,000 militia. Skirmishes between US and British boats start up again at sea. Oh dear. And then Clinton, his vice president, died.

Aww. Yeah. A quick scramble by the Republicans produced a new vice president named Albridge Gerry. That's a great name. Well, you know Gerry. Or at least you know of him. Because he had made a name for himself recently

by reshaping the districts of Massachusetts to give Republicans an advantage. So he'd redrawn some of the borders where people voted. Yeah. Ah, finally you've clocked on. Someone commented that this new district looked much like a salamander. This salamander soon earned the nickname Jerrymander.

And here's a picture of the Jerrymander. It's a bird. Yeah, it's a salamander mythical creature. Massachusetts. That's a map of Massachusetts if you hold it this way. And it's like a salamander sort of... Again, we'll put this on our website. You can see.

That's interesting. But yeah, this is where the term gerrymander comes from. Oh. Yeah. To legally. Manipulate. Yes. Yeah.

The district. So you can get an advantage. If you're not in a country and you don't experience how the political system works, it is always a bit odd looking in. And you've got to accept that other countries do things differently. But I must admit, the fact that gerrymandering is legal in the us it just baffles me yeah it's just such an obvious distortion of democracy it just shouldn't happen but should we get a law change you'd have to get the people that do it well yeah exactly no it's gonna be very hard to change

anyway jerry's now vice-president. Okay. Anyway, with this distraction out of the way, Madison sent to Congress a list of British offences. Impressment was going on. Blockades were going on. The British were inflaming the Indian tribes along their borders. Literally?

Not literally, no. Inflaming their passions. Again, this is Madison talking about flame and passions. Oh dear. Yeah. There was only one solution about flame and passions. Oh dear. Yeah. There was only one solution. War.

War. Oh no. The House voted in favour. The Senate voted in favour. Although, should be said, the margins were thin and a lot of people were set against this. Yeah. But that didn't matter because the votes were passed. The US had declared war on Britain.

Oh no. However, things did not start well. Massachusetts and generally New England were really not happy about this. Not at all. This is still a stronghold for Federalists and many of them did not want to see a war with a country that the region were mostly still very friendly with and had strong trade links with. New England were still arguably closer to England than they were with Virginia at this time. So they were not happy that this Virginian president

was leading them into a war against Britain. But Madison couldn't really deal with this because he had bigger things to worry about the war itself. Now, the plan was simple. Invade Canada. What? Yeah, invade Canada. Obviously, this will solve everything.

Canada, sparsely populated and with a large border, it should be relatively simple to walk in and take Canada off the British. Oh, on the... Yes. British power, after all, was at sea, not at land. And also, Britain were currently in the middle of a war with Napoleon, so they probably were quite busy. Now, you may have realised what

some argued is the point of the war all along at this point. Many people pointed out that actually the naval disputes and the trade disputes were just a pretext. After all, Jefferson had just acquired a large portion of French-slash-Spanish land to the west of them, so this is clearly just Madison trying to gain a lot of land to the north of them. War is nothing but a land grab claimed to the Federalists. And let's face it, if the US could get Canada, well, that would just be them pretty much in most of North America. It would certainly secure them.

Yeah, true. So it kind of makes sense. It does. But you can definitely see arguments on both sides of whether this war was really about trade or whether it was about the US trying to get more land. Probably elements of both, I'm guessing. Quite possibly, yeah. Now either way, invading Canada, like I say, it seemed like a good idea. Much was made of the idea of liberating the Canadians from their oppressors. So much so that many believed that the Canadians were just waiting

for a chance to throw off Britain's control. Yeah, that's what they're all about. Yep. However, turned out that wasn't true. Oh, okay. Canadians were quite happy being British Canadians. Yeah. Now the commander, the US commander, up near Canada at the time, a man named Hull, started the attack but then got an attack of nerves and withdrew. Yeah, the Indian tribes around the Great Lakes were fighting back, and Hall kind of didn't want to fight them and withdrew quite quickly. Yeah, he was soon court-martialed for cowardness. Slightly unfair, since Madison's government had actually failed to inform him promptly that the war had started.

So the British and the Native American tribes nearby found out that the war was on before the US commander had. Ooh, aww. Yeah, despite the fact it was the US declaring the war. Yeah, but you probably would have had some sort of inkling that it was on. Yeah, yeah, probably. You'd like to think, anyway. Talking of the Native American population, they're not having a good time. They're really not.

Again, many saw this war as an excuse to push into Indian land, not just Canada. After all, they were siding with the British. We had best take their land off them for protection, of course. Yeah, and for their protection. Yeah, definitely somehow. That definitely works.

However, as much as they feature heavily in the War of 1812, as this war is known as, I'm not actually going to talk about them much in this episode. I'm going to save it for Harrison's and Jackson's episodes. Because those two future presidents are busy fighting in this war. So I'll talk about that area then. Otherwise, there's simply too much to cover. But just know, the Native American tribes do not do well from this war at all.

Anyway, back to Canada, though. Let's see how the invasion of Canada's going. Well, it's not. Well, they've got some big moose. They've got moose defences and they've got Mounties. Big antlers, yes. Yeah. Husky dogs.

Exactly. You don't want to mess with Canada. And they put lots of maple syrup on the border. Like those fly traps just sort of get stuck to it. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And also Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island had refused to send their militias to help the war.

Oh, really? Yeah, they just said, no, we're not doing that. And soon talk of splitting the Union was on the lips of many. Oh, no. Oh, yes. Having these internal disputes on the very border of the war, because let's face it, they're opened by Canada, really isn't helpful.

And much time was wasted by US generals trying to politically deal with the hostile US citizens in New England. On top of this, it soon became clear that all of the US militia simply were just not as good as the Canadian British ones. They just weren't as well trained, organised, or supplied. Far from gaining land, the US were actually losing it. Detroit had fallen. However, at last some good news came through. A US ship called the Constitution had defeated a British ship at sea. That was nice.

Apparently the cannonballs had bounced off the side of the Constitution, earning the ship the nickname Old Ironsides. I've heard of that. Yes, you probably have. It's a famous that. Yes, you probably have. It's a famous story. Yeah, the mighty, invincible British Empire and its wonderful navy had been defeated by an American ship.

Well, yeah. Come on, spin it, spin it. Take whatever good news you can get. Madison decided huge celebrations should be had. After all, this is an American ship defeating a British ship. And it's the British Navy. They were invincible. Yeah, many saw this as a turning point.

It made up for the appalling performance in Canada. We can now beat the British, they said. Victory is now possible. Okay, the more cautious pointed out that this was a skirmish between a couple of ships. The US Navy at this moment comprised of 16 ships. The British had over 300 of the like.

Okay. As soon as Britain got out of their war with Napoleon some people muttered darkly they'd be able to actually focus their terrifying impressive Navy on the US and oh, then there'd be trouble. They were just told to be quiet, though. They were ruining the party.

Yeah. Come on, we won something. Yeah, have another good light. Go on. By this point, the elections were back on. Yeah, already. Yes, we've kind of skimmed through things, because there's lots to talk about.

As you can imagine, relatively easy for Madison. Using some political smarts, he associated with the Navy as much as possible, because the Navy were doing quite well. He attended formal parties in one of the flagships. And war has always made it easier for elected leaders to stay in power, as we've seen throughout history. And Madison's no different. He won this election with relative ease. But the election was far easier to win than the war. Still, there was no real sign of advancement from the US forces, and Madison's war secretary had resigned. Everyone blamed him for the fact that no one could get into Canada. Also, despite the victories at sea,

the US had actually got a few more by this point, they were actually doing quite well at sea. The naval secretary, unfortunately, was so drunk all the time he was unable to work past noon because he was just a state by that point. That's amazing. Just imagine Madison saying to the war secretary, why can't you just get results like the naval secretary? Pans over to him.

He's falling off his chair. Big boat. Sail. Sail. Sail. Boats. You're winning so much. What's your strategy? I love you.

Dutch courage. Lots of Dutch courage. I hate the British. They're horrible. Yeah, so they had to replace the Navy Secretary, unfortunately. But Madison couldn't find a war secretary. No one wanted the job for some reason. Eventually, after Monroe had turned the post down, Madison settles on a man named Armstrong.

Armstrong was known for not being easy to work with, shall we say. But he had a military record, and Madison needed someone, so Armstrong will do. By 1813, another naval skirmish had been won, so they're still doing well on the sea. But continuing with the trend in the war, Canada was still going nowhere. Admittedly, York had been taken. York is what Toronto used to be called. Okay. Yes, so Toronto was taken. But the retreating British had set their fort magazine to explode before retreating.

The US troops moved in and were standing next to the fort when it exploded, killing 38 and wounding 200. Oh. Yeah. Now, this level of casualties kind of made the attack on this relatively strategically unimportant town kind of null and void. It was kind of a draw at best unfortunately oh dear the u.s troops probably in anger sack the town which is interesting because i say they sacked the town because that's what i say when we're doing our roman podcast no one nowhere where

i was looking at this was it ever described as a sacking but they looted all the buildings and they burnt them all down that's a sacking in my book. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I don't know why it's never described as a sacking. But yeah, they sacked the town. That's what I'm going to say. And in Toronto, which was the capital for British Canada,

was their Parliament building, the Canadian equivalent to the Capitol building. Yeah, OK. And it went up in flames. Oh. British Canadians were not impressed. They're probably impressed the british canadians were not impressed they're probably impressed the size of the flames just not impressed their building had been yeah impressed in the wrong way anyway cut back to washington things not not looking great there word had come

through from russia napoleon's invasion of russia had just ended in disaster oh yes no i never heard a bit about that they They travelled all that way, basically just... They got to Moscow. Yeah. They took Moscow. Yeah. And then went, oh dear, we've ran out of food.

Yeah, because they travelled like how many thousands of miles. Yes. On a few donkeys. Napoleon had not learnt you just don't try and invade Russia. It never works. No.

It just doesn't. So, yeah, that just had not gone well, shall we say. That meant Napoleon was weak. That meant Napoleon was weak. That meant Britain was stronger. Oh, dear. That meant that they could start maybe putting a bit more effort

into this US war that was going on. Oh, man. Yeah, Britain start blockading the US more, except, cleverly, New England. They leave that alone. Partly because they have ties there. Partly because they just know that it will cause fractions internally in America. That's clever.

Yeah. And then the British actually start showing up. The US had not managed to take advantage of the British being tied up in Europe, so now things were really starting to look bad. But word from Russia came along again. Couldn't shut the Russians up at this point apparently. Tsar Alexander

was willing to mediate between the US and Britain Madison decided to take this offer seriously and John Adams' son, John Quincy Adams already happened to be in St. Petersburg so Madison directed him and some others to start talk with the Russians maybe something

can work out. America's starting to get a bit nervous at this point the easy part of the war they hadn't had much success in, and the British were coming. Yeah. Yeah. And they have big boats. They have big boats.

A lot of big boats. Yeah. And then Madison becomes ill. Yeah. Possibly malaria. Not great timing, but it was common for the time. By this point, it had been discovered that the bark of a particular tree helped treat this illness.

It had quinine in it, which helped treat it. But despite this, Madison was bedridden for weeks as the war continued around him. Oh dear. More reports of more defeats came from Canada. The Battle of Stoney Creek and Beaver Dam were decisive blows to the US dreams of a Canadian invasion. Madison ordered the general in charge to be replaced, but it wasn't really enough. At last, some good news came through. Because this is not going well.

William Henry Harrison had defeated a large confederacy of Indian tribes that had been fighting them. The US troops, wanting to take a souvenir, had skinned their leader, taking strips of skin away with them as souvenirs. Ah. Nice.

I mean, to be fair, incidents like this were happening on both sides on this front of the war, as we will see in later episodes. Things were nasty. Yeah. Yeah, they really were. But in terms of war, good news, this is a victory. Yes. And, oh, they needed a victory.

But this good news was soon tempered with yet more bad news. Again, another attempt to march into Canada had failed. The commander, James Wilkinson, was suffering from dysentery. Ugh. Yeah. But it's okay. Nothing that a small dose of lortin won't fix, he thought. That's like a That's an opiate. Yes, yes.

It's a very, very powerful drug. It doesn't cure the diarrhoea, it just makes you forget about it. Yeah, careless. Unfortunately, he didn't put aside his commanding duties. Oh, yes. So he was just high as a kite whilst commanding the troops in Canada. Go attack the enemy over there!

That's a pond full of ducks, sir. Exactly. They're in disguise. Yeah, Wilkinson was soon replaced. Yeah, it wasn't great. He was generally a shady character, actually. He was caught up in the whole Burr creating his own nation thing. It turned out later that he was also a Spanish spy.

Oh, really? Yes, I mean, he generally was not someone you want in charge of your armies. Even when he wasn't on drugs. Anyway, Madison, searching desperately for solutions to this disaster of a war, thought that perhaps an embargo might fix things. Of course, yeah. Of course, yes. If we stop trading with Britain, it will put pressure on them to stop.

Because, yes, trading still was going on, especially through New England. That's really funny. Yeah, and Madison really didn't like the fact that they were essentially supplying their enemies. With weapons and cannons and boats the main exports yeah and then even more bad news arrived napoleon had now been utterly defeated uh waterloo oh not quite yet his first utter defeat before he came back yeah there was nothing now to stop Britain whatsoever, who had, even up until this point, only had one eye on this war. So they weren't even trying.

Not really. Their main concern was France. But now they had no concerns in Europe anymore. They were free to trade all over Europe, and they could turn their entire forces onto the US. Ah, there you are. I've forgotten about you. Not only was this terrifying in itself, it also meant that this new embargo that they

just put into effect was completely useless. Britain wouldn't care that America wasn't trading with them because they'd just won the war in Europe, so they could trade with all of Europe if they wanted to. All the embargo did, once more, was to harm American farmers and merchants. So more internal grumbling started. Madison was forced to repeal the embargo. Federalists, as you can imagine, over the moon at this point, they could see this unjust, land-grabbing war ending soon.

Republicans, on the other hand, were furious. Their quest for freedom was once more being oppressed by the horrible British. However, good news this time oh good yes madison big sigh of relief britain although they'd refused to talk with through russia had decided that yeah actually we'll deal directly with you america let's talk peace oh they asked for many things such as fishing rights and land for the Native American populations to settle on in the West. They didn't mention ending impressment whatsoever but generally just said America stop what just just stop this now. It's just it's embarrassing you're embarrassing yourselves. Congress realising that things were looking pretty bad here authorised the negotiators

to yeah go and go and make a deal even if they're not talking about impressments, even if everything that we set out for at the start of this war is not mentioned. Just go and see what the British have to say, because this isn't looking good. However, just because the talk of peace deals were in the air, that didn't mean the fighting stopped.

And, just as the US feared, the British now were definitely free to ramp up the war effort. Soon everyone was convinced that an attack on Washington would definitely take place. But some hoped it wasn't the case, because the capital was, and I quote, a mere village, according to some. So why would they come and attack? Symbolic destruction.

Well, yeah, the US burning the Canadian Parliament building had resonated in the minds of some. And some feared reprisals. What a great idea. Yeah. So Madison ordered more militia to be raised to defend the capital. Come on, let's get some more militia, shall we? Pitchforks, lads. Soon afterwards, he went to go and inspect the troops, this new militia that had just been raised. Dolly stayed behind in washington and started organizing the

securing of important documents just in case they needed to be moved in a hurry for any reason the declaration of independence included yeah this yeah just in case something happens you never know pays to be prepared madison wrote to his wife that the troops he inspected were in high spirits and This was lies. Oh, okay. Yes, it really was. The militia was just completely unprepared and under-provisioned. They recently had an order for 1,000 flints for their rifles. Only 200 came up.

That's a share. Yeah, exactly. Madison wrote that he was pleased that the US had a cavalry. The British didn't. They were coming over with troops. They weren't bringing horses. It was impractical to try and cross the Atlantic with a bunch of horses.

That's the swimming horses. Exactly. Just tie a rope to it and let it swim after the boats. Well, what could go wrong? Yeah. So, we've got an advantage, said Madison. We've got the cavalry. However, he left out the fact that the horses were not war horses. They had been purchased literally two weeks beforehand. Right. And had no training.

They were show horses, farm horses. Excellent. Yeah. They were going to run in a battle. That's what they were going to do. Rear off a bolt. Sure enough, the attack from the British came. The British rear admiral at the time, who probably pronounced his name as George Coburn, arrived close to the capital. Madison wrote to his wife, the enemy seemed stronger than had been reported. You should ready at a moment's warning to leave.

Yeah. My dear, run for your life. Oh dear, oh dear. leave. Yeah. My dear, run for your life. Oh dear. Oh dear. P.S. Oh dear. However, Madison managed to beat the British back to the capital. Oh. Yes. He rode quickly. On the 23rd of August, there was visitor after visitor

in the presidential mansion. One was the commander of a 700-strong militia who had turned up to defend the capital. Great news. 700 extra men. Fantastic. This is wonderful. Yeah. Let's see them lining up.

Where are their guns? Oh, we don't have any of those, was the reply. Oh. But I have 700 men. Wonderful, thought Madison. Operation Human Shield begins here. Yeah. Then Madison gets another visitor.

It's the general in command of the 10th Military District, General Winder. He showed up with 2,600 men. Madison was quite surprised to see him, because he was supposed to be stopping the British on their way to the capital. Oh, hello. So, what are you doing here, then? Just asking. Not worried. I'm just not concerned.

I don't suppose by any chance you beat the British, did you? And you've come with... No. Okay. Well, the general feared that the British were going to attack at night, destroying their artillery advantage, and thought strategically they had best retreat. Read into that what you will.

Yeah, yeah. Run away! To be fair to the US forces here, because perhaps we're mocking them a bit, they hadn't completely run away. They had reorganised. Another 2,000 militia men had secured the bridge at nearby Bladenburg

in the hopes that this would slow down the British at a strategic choke point. Okay. Then word came through from Monroe, who was out scouting. They are coming. All of them. You could hear the drums in the distance. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

Yes. Then another letter arrived for the War Secretary Armstrong. Remember him? Hard to get on with. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, Madison opened it, thinking this might be important. It was from a general winder, the one who had just done a

strategic retreat. He was asking, what do we do? Madison, probably feeling a bit fed up at this point, headed out personally to go and see Winder where he was. It's like, you're supposed to defend us. You're supposed to be doing your job. You're a General!

You're supposed to be doing. Madison was soon joined by Monroe, the Secretary of the Navy, a new sober one, I assume, and the Attorney General. And they generally had a hurried meeting about what was going on. How can we defend the capital here? The British indeed were coming via Blandenburg. So we have defences in the way. Yeah. About halfway through this meeting, Armstrong suddenly arrived. No one knew where he'd been. He turned a plate. Madison and Armstrong were struggling to get on at this time, shall we say. Armstrong had made some appointments without consulting Madison. Madison had not agreed with those appointments and decided the best way to deal with his war secretary of dubious loyalty was to send him several memos telling him exactly how he could improve on his performance.

That's what everybody looked forward to. Yes. I'm sure he took them all to heart. I think that Armstrong has made a little booklet out of them and keeps them in his breast pocket. Yeah. And he gets them out and just twitches slightly every time he reads it. Yeah. So I imagine Armstrong's not best pleased when he turns up to the meeting.

Madison asked him for any advice or any assessment of the situation. Armstrong paused and came up with his words of wisdom. He pointed out that the US militia was no match for trained British troops. So he says, he said, yes, my analysis is we're screwed. Pretty much, yeah. I'd like to think there was a long, protracted pause after his nuggets of wisdom there. Thanks. Thanks, Armstrong. Thanks.

That's useful. That's what that is. We'll take that on board. Constructive. That's what we want. In the end, Madison decided to ride to Bladenburg, to the front line. It would do the troops good to see their commander-in-chief. So he rides towards the town. But what I want you to do now is cut to the town before Madison arrives. Yeah. To a couple of regular soldiers who are at Bladenburg.

And they, just like other US troops, have just been pushed out of the town by the British. So we're setting up outside of the town. Right. They look up and they see none other than their president riding towards them, coming to greet them, coming to buoy their spirits. He's coming closer, closer. He's not slowing down.

Oh, oh, he's gone past. Has anyone told him that we don't actually hold the town anymore? Oh, dear. Yes. Yeah, Madison't actually hold the town anymore? Oh, dear. Yes. Yeah, Madison just heads towards the town. Like, oh, that's awkward. It was only at the last moment he realised that he was riding straight into the enemy

and managed to retreat. But I'd love to think he actually got there and started trying to buoy the spirits of the troops who were all standing around going, this isn't right. Come on, we can fight harder than this. You can't give up. And they actually, you know, build up and got really into it. And they wipe out the rest of his American troops.

Yeah. Lucky escape. Could you imagine how embarrassing it would be for general US history if the fourth American president had literally ridden into a British camp and got captured? What point did he realise? Do you think he saw like, there's a lot of British flags in this American held fort. There's a lot of red coats around. Oh well, I'm sure it's fine. Yeah. They're probably prisoners. No, he managed to sort himself out so it was fine in the end. He recovered and he talked to his men. Once the troops are given a bit of a pep talk, Madison managed to sort himself out, so it was fine in the end. He recovered and he talked to his men. Once the troops are given a bit of a pep talk,

Madison turns to Armstrong again and asks what he thought of the preparations. Armstrong's reply was, and I quote, They're as good as circumstances will admit. We're screwed. Oh, yes. The American last stand started. Oh, no. And then ended pretty much straight away.

The British pretty much wore through them, as you'd expect. Madison rode back to the capital as fast as he could to find Dolly had already organised and left, taking a huge portrait of George Washington with her, so that survived, which is nice, yeah. She also had stopped the doorman of the presidential mansion from blowing the building up. He had suggested leaving a trail of gunpowder around the mansion

and setting fire to it as soon as the British arrived. To stop them doing it. Yes, and maybe catching them in the blast as well. I've just, in my head, got an image of the doorman with a glint in his eye. Flicking a lighter. I know this is terrible news, but can I blow the mansion up? Please. I really want to blow the mansion up. Give me the lighter. We're just going to walk out. Is that clear? Tie him up. Anyway, Madison arrives and finds that Dolly's gone. It's just a vague twitchy doorman with a lighter around.

It's slightly disappointing. Yeah. So Madison carries on crossing the Potomac and into Virginia. Someone accompanying Madison wrote, Columns of flame and smoke ascended through the night from the capital. Bursts of flame and sparks mounting high up on the dark horizon. So the British have invaded? The British enter Washington. The British Admiral Cockburn, Coburn, Cockburn,

had entered the city to repay insult to the Toronto burning and had just decided, let's burn this place to the ground, basically. Cockburn also ordered that all the seas were destroyed in the press houses. You've been calling him Cockburn all the way through. I'm calling him Cockburn now. Okay. He might have pronounced it Cockburn. But everyone else pronounced it Cockburn.

So the Americans. And probably the British as well, let's face it. General Cockburn. You're not having a name, Cockburn, without people mocking. And people did mock because he ordered that all the C's were destroyed in the press houses. So, and I quote, the rascals can no longer abuse my name. That's really funny. Just the letter C.

Yeah. Just get rid of the letter C's. He's a massive Ock. Yeah, I will forever be Ockburn. Or OK Burn. Anyway, Madison soon managed to meet up with Dolly. Yeah, I will forever be Ockburn. Or OKburn. Oh, yeah. Anyway, Madison soon managed to meet up with Dolly, but soon after was once again off to meet up with the remaining troops. The British did not stay in the capital for long.

Once they'd sacked the place, they'd left. Again, this is now described as a sacking. I think we're too late in history for sackings. No, this is sacking. It's a sacking. So once they'd sacked Washington, they left. Madison, realising the image was important, wrote to everyone around him,

telling them to head back to the capital. We need to set up again. We will not be defeated. We will not go quietly into the night. We're going to live on. We're going to survive. Today, we celebrate our return to Washington. Day.

It had a nice ring. Yeah. He arrived at the presidential mansion and saw that it was now blackened with cracked walls. The Capitol building likewise was a mess. The dome had collapsed. The library gutted and burnt. Many around the president started to mutter about surrender. A couple of weeks later, the British attacked Baltimore. They didn't do quite as well this time, and one of the British commanders, on the same level as Cockburn, or Ockburn, was killed. So a huge blow to the British there.

Still, the British did manage to inflict a lot of pain on Baltimore by bombarding the city from sea. But don't forget, throughout all of this, the peace talks are still going on. Oh my goodness. Yes. Madison received news that the British were starting to do things like ask that the US give them Maine. The British were pushing things a bit. According to one witness, the president looked miserable, shattered, and woe-begotten. And then he heard that the New England states had called for a meeting to, and I quote,

discuss the foundation for radical reform in the national compact. It looked like New England were going to leave the Union. Now, to Republicans, this was obviously treasonous. Some Republicans urged the President to send troops into the northern states before anyone could revolt. You're looking dubious. That would

not be a good idea. Well, Madison doesn't do this. I mean, whether it's because he didn't want to or just because he had no troops to do it. They're all dead. Talking of people dead, Vice President Gerry suddenly died. I'm guessing this would not have lifted

anyone's spirits. Things are grim basically. By now the British were focusing on New Orleans. They'd gone down into that area. They were hoping to gain the strategic city. Madison had pushed all he could into that theatre of war and in Washington, everyone was just waiting to see what

the news was from General Andrew Jackson who was in charge down there. Madison's fate rested on this outcome. Federalists and Republican enemies to Madison were just waiting in the wings to blame Jackson's failure on Madison not supplying him. Meanwhile, the New England Convention had decided that they weren't going to leave the Union,

but they did want some changes around here, including getting rid of that horrible Three-Fifths Clause in the Constitution. That's just awful it needs to go, along with some other changes that they wanted. So they sent a delegation down to Washington. They arrived in the capital to see Madison, thinking, we'll be able to push out a man's through. Madison is on his knees. But he wasn't on his knees.

Madison was celebrating. Word had just come through. Jackson had not only won, but had won an amazing victory. Wow. Thousands of British dead. A handful of Americans dead. This episode's weird, because I don't know whether to because obviously being British I'm sort of like

How dare they! But I'm also, you know, going for the protagonist. It's very tricky. Yeah, and it is. Mixed feelings you've got here. Yeah. Well, the New England Convention, they weren't happy because they were simply ignored as a wave of patriotism

washed over the capital. And then bigger news. The peace talks had concluded. In fact, they concluded a while ago. It just took a long time to get to America. And that Jackson victory had actually taken place after the war had officially ended. But still. Oopsie-daisy.

Details. The British in the end had essentially said, you know what? If you stop fighting, we're pretending that this ever happened. Oh, nice. Yeah. Go back to status quo. Yeah. Britain, war-weary after fighting Napoleon, and only ever really seeing this war as a sideshow, were more than happy to just go back to how things were before. After all, they'd not wanted this war with America, so they were content to leave the US with a slap on the wrist rather than waste good money and soldiers for no real reason. Madison agreed immediately.

So, who won the war? No one, really. Well, yeah, on paper, as things returned to how they were before, it's technically a draw, I suppose. But I imagine. Well, Britain could quite easily say, we were the ones gaining land. We could defend Canada with minimal force. And we forced the US to peace. We could defend Canada with minimal force. And we forced the US to peace. We've clearly won this.

Just let the Americans go. We don't need this war. Yeah, we've won it. So everyone in Britain felt happy. And in the US, well, they also managed to spin this into a victory. Because after all, their puny little new country had taken on the might of the British Empire. And look, we're still here. We've not been crushed into dust.

In fact, we've lost nothing at all. Okay, we've gained absolutely nothing we set out to achieve when we declared war. But that's details. Yeah. Plus, to be fair to the US, they could claim numerous victories during the war. Against that one boat. By the end, several naval victories had been had against a very impressive navy. So they could genuinely be proud of this.

And also, most importantly, who would win the last battle of the war? True. And isn't that how it works? I'm sure that's how it works. Whoever wins the last battle wins the whole war. But the British say, yes, but we'd actually sign the peace treaty for a war sort of place. Well, exactly. It was perfect for everyone. Britain could claim they've won america could claim they've won and everyone

could just go back to how things were before so madison spends the rest of his presidency consolidating power creating another national bank and expanding the national army and navy one republican opponent grumbled that madison was out hamiltoning Hamilton himself, which was a fair enough grumble, really. Madison was leaving office doing everything that he'd fought Hamilton about. He was making the army bigger, the navy bigger, and he was creating national banks. But if there was one thing that makes you give up on the Republican ideal of militias rising up to fight off invaders, it's seeing it happen. Yeah. Yeah, Madison now realized that they needed

to be able to fend their shores better by now monroe in fact had won the next election and here'd be our next president and madison retired becoming the first president in u.s history to leave the office not feeling bitter resentment he died in his bed 20 years later. Oh, interesting. We need to rank Madison. Okay. Let's do this. But before we do,

we have an adjustment to make. Oh, we do. We do. We're queuing the sad we apologise, we've made a mistake music. There it is. Yep.

Yep. We feel maybe we went a bit too far with Jefferson and his Disgrace Gate score. Yeah. Because he was in many ways an appalling man. He was an appalling man. But thinking ahead, I can't help but feel we might hit some other presidents

that do slightly larger things that are terrible. And we both gave him eight points apiece. And after discussing things, it's always hard to get these scores exactly right early on. Especially at the beginning. Yeah. It's easier as we go on and we can compare more. So I personally think we should knock a point off each his Disgrace Gate score. Yes.

I agree. So that'll increase his score by two points. Yes. So he has got two more points. He's got a Disgrace Gate score of minus 14 and a total score of 23.5. So, with that adjustment made, we now go into rank medicine. Statement! Okay, the good.

He was instrumental in writing the US Constitution. That's pretty damn important, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, they apparently like their Constitution of America. They mention it occasionally. Every now and again. Yeah, so there's that and then the bill of rights he wrote that as well and those amendments people like to mention those amendments occasionally people keep checking them have you noticed that people always say in films last time i checked there's a little thing known as the insert whichever amendment is that's true yeah it's like when are they checking this

yeah it could be taken, I don't know. I often wonder this when I hear someone saying, last time I checked. It's like, when did you actually last check? Anyway, Bill of Rights, it's a big deal. Constitution, it's a big deal. The idea of the amendments as well, and crafting them. Through the first set of

amendments in the Bill of Rights, not only did he create rights for the citizens of America, a hugely important thing, not only did he create rights for the citizens of America, a hugely important thing, but he also ensured that the Constitution could work because he proved that it was adaptable and it can change if society found it needed to, which you need in a written Constitution, otherwise it just becomes obsolete. Yeah, and you'll get laws in place that don't really make sense anymore. Yeah. He also wrote a large portion of the Federalist Papers, which commits people to adopt the Constitution in the first place.

Very impressive. He also seemed to write everyone's speeches at the start of Washington's presidency. Yeah, which is nice. Once he entered the new government, he was seen as leader of the House of Representatives. He was very influential in shaping the start of the House of Representatives. He was a very capable Secretary of State. He put out those diplomatic fires very well. And when he was President, of course, he saw through a war, which, although he didn't win, he was certainly able to make it look like he did, which is probably good enough.

Yeah, he won-ish. Yeah, he won-ish. He certainly didn't lose. No. Yeah, not in the eyes of the Americans, anyway. And that's what's important if you're running a country. So, yeah. I mean, all of that's quite impressive, really.

Yeah. Victory in war and he's forming the Constitution and the government of America. Yeah. Pretty damn impressive. Yeah, he's doing right. Okay, bad, however. He thought the embargo of Jefferson was a good idea and he defended it. And then he tried it again himself with similar results.

I mean, it just wasn't great, was it? Well, I think it's Albert Einstein who said that the sign of stupidity is trying something more than once and expecting a different result. Yes. Yeah, so the embargoes weren't great. Despite the spin at the end, the war was not a good thing. They completely fluked and looked out with her. Well, a large portion of the country did not want this war to happen. Yeah.

If there wasn't a war on, there was a good chance that a civil war would have broken out. It was a very unpopular war in many places in the country. And arguably, the war simply didn't have to happen. Proven by the fact that literally nothing changed after the war, and everyone seemed quite happy with that. So, there's a lot to be said for the accusations that this was

a cynical land grab by the Madison government, thinking that the British were too busy with Napoleon to worry about them taking Canada. If that is the case, it just failed miserably. Yep. Yeah, so, maybe you could look at the war that way. Also, like I mentioned, there is a lot going on in this war with the Native American population,

which I've just had to leave out. Which I will come back to, but to sum up, if neither the British or the US won this war, then it was definitely the Indian tribes that lost it. The US used this war to push further and further into what they could now claim as hostile Indian land. Yeah. Because after all, they fought for the British. That's true, yeah.

So now we are defending ourselves by going into their land. And taking all their stuff and killing them and... Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that, it's really not great. But as we will see, we're going to the details in later episodes but it's certainly madison who needs to take a bit of the blame for this yeah yeah so there you go that's his statesmanship out of the founding fathers apart from washington he seems the most found the fathery i wrote it down yeah he he wrote things down and, yeah, he was there throughout lots of it. Yeah?

Yeah. All his good, I'd be saying four marks, ten. I think I've got to knock something off for the fact that he does some quite dodgy things. I think, like you said earlier, how you view this war, you could go from one extreme to the other, but it's probably a mixture of the two. Yeah. They felt they needed to fight off the British, but at the same time, wouldn't it be handy if we got Canada?

True. Wouldn't it be handy if those Native American tribes just went away? I've got to take something off, but I can't take too much because... I'm going to give him nine. I'm thinking eight or nine. I think I'll give him eight. Okay. Because it is very impressive, so I'm giving him a very high score.

That's fair enough. That is a 17 for statesmanship. Very good score. Disgrace, Giggits. Okay. Slavery. It's still here. As ever with Virginian founding fathers, we have the slavery issue.

But we are much closer to Washington than we are with Jefferson. Okay. With this fellow. So own slaves but didn't necessarily agree with it, as long as it didn't impact him. Yeah, he thought slavery was a terrible thing, or at least he said so, but he did

absolutely nothing whatsoever in his entire life to do anything about it. Because even when New England came along saying, get rid of the three-fifths thing, ignored. Yeah, exactly. And he had the chance. He had the chance to do something. But that's it. He's literally writing this new government into existence

and he is keeping all the slavery stuff in there. And that needs to be considered. And yes, product of times, as we've discussed before, with Jefferson and Washington, but we should be no less horrified by it, just because he is the third president to do it. But he's not writing books

about how slaves are genetically inferior because of the colour of their skin. So he's doing better than Jefferson in that regard. One story sums him up, I think. And I quote here, Mr Madison often told the story that one day riding home from court with old Tom, they met a coloured man who took off his hat.

Mr. Madison then raised his, to the surprise of old Tom, to whom Mr. Madison replied, I never allow a negro to excel me in politeness. Ooh. Now this, this story sums him up because you can really take it two ways. Is this showing Madison is polite, even to slaves?

Or is it just showing that he thinks he is just superior to all slaves and there's no way they can out-polite him, damn it? Yeah, he's trying not to be embarrassed by him. Yeah, it's just a slightly awkward little story. Yeah, that's not pleasant. That he told as if it put him in good light. In the research I've done, he did not strike me anywhere near as bad as Jefferson. No.

Jefferson, I actively disliked quite a bit of my research, although he did some quite impressive things. I didn't get that feeling from Madison. I got more of a feeling that I did with Washington, which is, oh, that's bad, but... It's of the time. Yeah, I'm just less... I have less harsh judgments towards him.

He was insensitive, and he did nothing whatsoever to help the plight of slavery. So he should be judged for that. But I don't think it's quite as bad as Jefferson's. And also, aside from that, he is squeaky clean. There is literally nothing else that I could find whatsoever. So there you go. Negative two, because he had the chance to and he didn't.

So you're going to give him a couple of points for the slavery issue. Yeah, I'm going to take two off for the slavery. Yeah, I'm going to give him three for this, I think. So that's a total of minus five for Disgrace Gate. Silver screen. Okay, so how well would this be as a film? Oh, I think quite good. Especially the war at the end.

Very dramatic. You've got a war at the end. That's really good. And it starts in his presidency and ends in his presidency. Yeah, it's bookended. Which is really nice and neat. Yeah, yeah.

Nice eight-year war. Yeah, exactly. So you've got him writing the Constitution, so you could do, like, pages spinning as it zooms towards the screen. And all the tropes. Yeah, you've got him writing the Constitution, so you could do pages spinning as it zooms towards the screen. And all the tropes. Yeah, you've got him writing the Federalist Papers with Hamilton and then them falling out. You could do a nice montage with them playing with their monkey once they're writing the Federalist Papers.

And then sharp cuts to them falling out and arguing. That would be quite nice. Him writing the Bill of Rights. Yeah, his flaming passion for Dolly. Well, exactly. That would be quite nice. Him writing the Bill of Rights. Yeah. His flaming passion for Dolly. Well, exactly. The love story's nice. You really get the sense more than any other president and first lady that we've had so far that these two were quite happy with each other. Yeah. And Dolly is a fascinating woman and we will have to do a special episode on her at some point. Without her, Madison would have struggled a lot.

She helped his fame rise as well as his flame. It's like a Bunsen burner. So you've got a really good love story. So you've got a really good love story in there as well. That's really good. And like you say the war at the end is just great and it's oh no, oh no, we're losing, we're losing,

we're losing, we're losing, we're losing. Oh just at the end. Oh we looked out there didn't we? Oh it's fine and, no, oh, no, we're losing, we're losing, we're losing, we're losing, we're losing. Oh, just at the end. Oh, we looked at that, didn't we? Oh, it's fine. And we've got a big victory down south. And yay, we end. And it's great. Also, I think we miss his statesmanship.

He was ill all the way through this. Well, yes, exactly. He's fighting. What a great beginning. Sympathy for the character. Yeah, exactly. He's fighting his illness. Trying to hide it as character. Yeah, exactly. He's fighting his illness. Trying to hide it as well.

Yeah, yeah. And coming to terms with it, but not holding it down. Yeah, I mean, he's pretty damn good. Because he's full of demons, but he doesn't stop, does he? But is he a bit boring as a person? He's got no scandal whatsoever.

He's just, he's usually described as just being a bit timid and boring. No, I get that. But the events around him make it interesting. And he dealt well with those. Yeah. But is he a strong enough character to hold the film together? I think so.

I mean, you're not going to be casting Robert Downey Jr. as Madison, are you? No, I get your point. But I think, you know, every film embellishes things slightly. They're going to make him the quiet intellectual, aren't they? Yeah, quite possibly. A bit like Beautiful Mind. Have you ever seen that? No, I've not.

It's really interesting. I thought it was the first time I did it. It's good. It's about a guy who invented game theory, basically. Oh, right. Solved problems and he was American. A bit of a quiet character, a bit subdued. I imagine that would fit in quite well with him.

Are you seeing this more in the theme of a Moneyball type film then? Moneyball? film then oh have you not seen money but we need to find a film that we've both seen moneyball is a baseball film but it's someone who puts their baseball team together using mathematics okay and not star players just working out mathematically what would be the cheapest team that would get the best results and it's based on a real story, and the team does amazingly well. Okay. Yeah, it's a really good film. Watch it. Sure Shrunk Redemption. You've seen that.

Yes, I've seen that. So the lead in that, not very charismatic. Doesn't need to be. It's the things that happen around him. He uses cleverness to kind of solve the problem and stuff. I see Madison more like that. Okay. Will he still have a scene where he digs a tunnel and he puts up a poster?

Is that how he escaped the White House? Yes. Yes. Okay. We'll put that scene in our film then. Okay. Will he still have a scene where he digs a tunnel and he puts up a poster? Is that how he escaped the White House? Yes. Yes. Okay. We'll put that scene in our film then. I'm going to give this film a seven. It's got a good war in it and it's got a good love story, but it's not like the most exciting thing I've ever seen.

No, I think it's going to be exciting in parts, but I agree. It's more of a, imagine a long four-hour epic film. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fourteen. There is his portrait. See, it looks like he's sitting on the chair, but he's obviously standing.

Quite possibly. I think it's very dark. Very dour. He's a bit dour. It's widow's peak there. Silver hair. I like his widow's peak, though. I like his widow's peak though I like his hair actually

yeah he's quite severe looking isn't he yeah very serious very serious studious I imagine him in glasses though but I imagine the glasses back then weren't great he's got a bit of red behind him for some reason that's probably because he had a bit of colour

he's so black he just blended maybe that's the White House burning down in the background this was quickly painted. Quick, hold it there, sir. Hold it there. Had an artist with him who just went, the light is perfect at the moment. It's quite good.

I quite like it. It's a lovely painting, isn't it? Yeah. I prefer it to John Adams. It's much better than Washington's. Yeah, I prefer it to Washington's. I don't think it's quite as good as Jefferson's. What did we give Jefferson's? I think I prefer it to Washington's. I don't think it's quite as good as Jefferson's.

What did we give Jefferson's? I think I'm going to go slightly below him. Seven apiece. I'm going to go for six then. I'm going to go for six. Right, well, I'll go for seven because I quite like it. Okay, fair enough. So that's the score of 3.25.

Canvas ability. Yeah. Golubus! He scores two points for serving out two terms. Well done. Yeah. Assassination. No one tried to kill him.

Could argue the British, perhaps. Yeah. But I doubt they would have killed him. They probably would have taken him prisoner. So zero for assassination. Election. He scores 64.1. So he just misses the landslide two marks. Yeah, he scores a one for that.

So that gives him a total score of 32.25, which puts him firmly in second place. He's not too far from Washington. Washington got 37. Only five away. 4.75 away. Yeah, so really not bad, but is he worthy of an American?

American or American? Yes. Yeah? He wrote the Constitution, he wrote the amendments, he wrote the Bill of Rights, he wrote the Republican letter things. He played with a monkey with Hamilton.

Yeah, he set fire to toilets when he was a student. He wrote speeches for all the main people. Yeah, I think it's got to be for all that early stuff. Yeah. I can't give it to him for anything he did as president. He held on during the war. He held on. By shit luck probably. Yeah, just.

But he had such an impact on the shape of the future of America. I agree. I think I would struggle not to give it to him. Yeah, so well done Madison. You are an American. American. And that's the end of this episode

and the end of this president because next time we do his fellow Virginian and friend James Monroe. Yes. So thank you very much to listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. Don't forget you can follow us on Facebook and Twitter and you can download us

from Podbean, iTunes and Stitcher. Check out our WordPress site which has all the maps on. I do a map for each president and you get to see their Rankium cards as well. Just go to the WordPress site generally. Although I can't stop it from saying Roman Emperor's Totalus Rankium in the search when you search it from Google which is really annoying. I need to figure out how to do that but just look for Totalus Rank in WordPress. You'll find it. You will. Yeah. We believe in you. Okay then. All that needs to be said then is goodbye.

Goodbye. Geraldine! Geraldine! You have to help me write a letter. What is it, Madison? I need you to write to Dolly, the love of my life. Dolly? Dolly, you met her yesterday. She's the love of my life.

If you'd seen her, you'd see how the moon sparkles. Oh, dear, Madison, not again. Okay, I'll write to her. What do you want me to say? Well, I think, first of all, you need to say... I beg your pardon? You heard. I said But you can't put that in there.

I beg your pardon? You can't put those words in that letter. It's obscene. It's better than what I wrote to Kitty and Rebecca and Sarah. Oh yes, you have toned it down somewhat Right, how about if I remove the word copious Copious, but it's One of my favourite adjectives

Yes, it works But We could remove that adjective And the preceding six I'm not sure that particular noun there Needs so many adjectives. But Geraldine, you know how many names I have in my... Yes, exactly.

And I just don't think that you need to describe it in so much detail. So yes, I think we need to get rid of all of this, pardon. I'll be honest, you lost me here, look. I don't even know what this word means. That word? It's a synonym for pulsating. Oh, is it? Yes, and that one there? No, no. Is it pulsating?

Well, not now, Geraldine. My goodness. How about we just say that you, at night, you dream of her? But that's essentially what I put there. That's not the same. That's actually physically being outside her window at night. We'll change that to dreams, I think. We'll cross that bit out. You can't change it in gorge. I really, I think. We'll cross that bit out. You can't change it in Gorge. I really don't think we're getting my ideas through here.

I've got to get rid of this word. Relieve? But I want relieved to stay. Fine, but if the word relieved's staying, then what's being relieved must go. I'm going to say relieve his flame. Yes, relieve his flame. But that doesn't even make sense!

But it's a hell of a lot better than what was out before, Madison. But it's not my flame that needs relieving, it's my... Good God, man! Put it away! The British enter Washington and start burning everything to the ground. I'm assuming the city. Yes. Yes. The city.