American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 5.1 James Monroe

Episode Date: June 23, 2018

  It’s tough being the poor boy in the class, even when you own hundreds of acres of land and dozens of slaves. But one day the young James Monroe was shot in the shoulder. Then everything started to come together - The great George Washington knows him, he is becoming friends with Thomas Jefferson, and he can shoot a squirrel at a 100 yards. With these attributes behind him, the sky is the limit.

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, James Monroe, part one. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this here is episode 5.1. Yeah, it is. It's James Monroe. Ah. Not heard of him. No, not at all.

In fact, the first time I heard his name was the last episode when you said it. Right, okay. Seriously, not at all? No. Well, he is the last of the Founding Fathers. He gets left off a bit. So was he something to do with the whole writing thing and signing thing? Well, yeah, he was there when everything was being found, but after him... Well, don't spoil the episode. Sorry.

But yeah, they'd sort of found it by the end of... It was there then. Yeah, okay. And it wasn't until someone lost it again in the mid-1800s that they needed to worry. Is that true? Yeah, it was down the back of the sofa. Oh, man. Yeah. That's why the Civil War happened.

Yeah. But we're skipping ahead now. Yeah, sorry. So this is the end of them finding. Yeah, and we're going to see what his journey through life was like. Oh, let's do this. Let's do this. So James Monroe was born in 1758 during the Seven Year War.

This is four years after George Washington had kicked all of that off by killing the French diplomat. Oh, so he wasn't even born as Washington. No, no. This will make him quite a young president then. Oh, well, don't forget, we have gone quite a bit further on from George Washington now. We are on President 5. Oh, right, yeah. Oh, hang on.

About 20 years, 24 years? Yeah, about 24 years on. Oh, check me out. Pretty much just randomly saying numbers. Yeah, no. Eventually, one had to be right. I think you got that right. I'll edit the five minutes of you counting.

Thank you. You shouldn't have started on 100 and counted backwards. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so the Monroes, they were originally from Scotland. Look, I'm a new. Yes, they said to each other regularly over their porridge. A Captain Monroe was on the royalist side during the English Civil War.

Oh, wow. And therefore, when things weren't going well, fled to the New World. Because Charles I lost his head. He did. Yeah, so they thought, yeah, let's get out of here before getting a bit dicey. Before anyone realises that I'm an incredibly royal

person myself. So let's head to the place with no royal family. Yeah, exactly. Over the next couple of generations the Monroe's fortune grew, but they never really were up there in the highest echelons of Virginian society. They were planter class, but they were sort of among the poorer planters. Okay. So comparatively poor to the elites, but compared to the normal person,

I mean, they did own farms and slaves, just not many. Yeah. Yeah. Middle class. Yeah. Rather than upper class. Bottom of the upper class.

Oh, okay. It wasn't really middle class. It's hard to say. You know what I mean, though. I know what you mean. Modern day. Yeah. Anyway, Spence Munro.

He was forced to supplement his income by becoming a carpenter. He also managed to become more comfortable by becoming a carpenter. He also managed to become more comfortable when he married a wealthy Welsh immigrant named Elizabeth Jones. Yeah, but... That's what she said. Yeah. I'm not even going to try and do a Welsh accent. I really can't. Sounds scouse. Yeah, I was going to say that was definitely scouse. Well, maybe she was. She was scouse. That's what she was. Yeah. Anyway, I was going to say that was definitely Scouse. Maybe she was. She was Scouse. That's what she was. Anyway, this couple soon had children.

Five of them. They were very busy. The eldest was a daughter called Elizabeth. And then they had four sons. The eldest was our James. And then Spence. Then Andrew. Then Joseph. Some of these siblings will pop up again later. Just to let you know.

A bit like that, yeah. Like a mole. Yeah. Now, together, they lived in a one-storey farmhouse with bedrooms in the attic. The family had a few slaves, but nothing like the families of Jefferson and Washington. James and his brothers were taught to fish, hunt, ride, fire a musket.

As the eldest son, James was the one to learn how to farm, so he was very soon picking things and then hoeing things and then milking things and then eventually ploughing things. Wait. Yeah. Had to do something in the evening. Most of all, however, James loved shooting things. I feel like this might end in a good story at some point. Unfortunately not, really. I feel like this might end in a good story at some point. Unfortunately not, really. No. I mean, he became a particularly good shot,

and he regularly brought home the dinner, apparently. I will quote here, he was a fine shot, and they never lacked for squirrels for shooting. Do you think he was such a good shooter? He, like, bro-tid, I can shoot a fly out of the air. And he shot the fly, brought it home for supper.

His family was kind of really proud that he could do it and shoot it, but also at the same time really desperate and hungry. Yeah, which is why they then started on squirrels. Yeah. They started showing off by shooting a fly in front of a squirrel. So they went through the fly into the squirrel. Yeah, very impressive. You know how you can go to Iceland, the shop, not the country?

You can do both. Yeah, you can. You can buy like a turkey, and inside the turkey is a chicken. Inside the chicken is a duck. It's like a three bird thing. It's like a weird... I'm sorry, I'm just trying to imagine the hideous farm that that's going to be on. What's going on there?

I'm trying to imagine how they died. And so you get like a squirrel with a fly. Yeah. Or a bear with a squirrel and a fly. It's turning into the old woman, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yes, that's what it's turning into. I honestly don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

It's something to do with history, isn't it? James Monroe, that's it. Yes, he used to shoot squirrels and they used to eat them. Excellent. There we go, right. When he was 11, he went off to school. A Scottish man taught him. Taught him history, Latin, French, maths and scripture.

Do you think it was the same teacher? No, it wasn't. No, I checked. No. Although it did make me think. I wonder if Madison and Monroe, when they knew each other when they were older, used to speak Scottish French to each other. Oh, yeah. Because none of the French could understand Madison. Because of his

Scottish accent. But maybe Monroe could. Yeah, they just got this secret language that they can't. Ah, non. Yeah, they've just got this secret language that they could understand. Ah, que Paris. When he was at school, he made friends with a boy named John Marshall, who will pop up again later, briefly. Did he?

The camp maker? Yeah. Yes, he was. James would walk five miles a day to get to school. Wow. Under one arm, he would carry his books. Over his shoulder was his musket. He'd spend his journey shooting at small animals for dinner, basically. Nice. Yeah. Different times back then. Imagine being the teacher trying to take the gun off him when he got to school. Give me that fox and that deer and oh, that is a whole cow, isn't it, James?

and oh, that is a whole cow, isn't it, James? How did you drag them all? So this was his life. He was merrily killing animals and getting an education. And then his mother died. Yeah, when he was 14. All very sad. His sister, a bit older, was 19 by this point.

So she took over the duties that her mother had done. And James just continued to go to school. Probably a bit more upset than he was before. Killed a few more things. Yeah, just took his anger out on the squirrel population. Then their father died. Oh no. Shortly afterwards. Losing both parents in quick succession was devastating to the children.

James was 16 by this point. His brothers were 15, 10, and 2, respectively. Two? Yeah. And it was obvious to all that the children obviously needed help here. A bit too young to look after themselves. However, James is in luck. Because James

has an uncle. This uncle stepped in. Joseph Jones. He was a member of the state Burgesses. He adopted the children and provided Elizabeth with enough for her to look after the younger boys, and James himself was taken under his uncle's wing. That's nice. Yeah, so his uncle's high up in politics and just says, come with me, James Millard.

Do you think that has an effect on his future in any way? Oh, it has a huge effect on his future, yes. Yes. He was sent to William and Mary, the college in Virginia. The Royal Virginian College. Yeah, this is where all the elites sent their sons. This is where Jefferson went. James would have been seen as the poor boy in the class. Despite his 800-acre farm and his owning of slaves, he just didn't have as much as everyone else.

Ha ha, your musket isn't made of gold. Yeah. It's only made out of silver. Loser. His clothes apparently were all scrappy as well. So he's just, just bothered. Yours is just cotter, not the finest velvet. Yeah, things like that. Oh. Yeah. However, it wasn't all doom and gloom. While he was there, James was able to see his uncle in action at the House of Burgesses. While visiting, he was able to see the big names in action. Patrick Henry, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson.

Oh, wow. He was seeing these famous people. And then the British passed their intolerably Gittish acts. Yeah. Word got round campus that this would lead to war. Sure enough, things soon escalate. When the royal governor of Virginia ordered his troops to empty the militia storehouse, words

quickly spread. The students of William and Mary grabbed their muskets and marched on the governor's house, James included. As you can imagine, a bunch of students, they're itching for a fight. Oh yeah. Redcoat soldiers managed to disperse the mob, but James and his fellow students start drilling

every day. Everyone's talking about this upcoming war. Training and montage time. Montage time, definitely, yeah. And James himself, he's grown up to be a tall, strapping young lad by this point. Tensions rise, and the governor decides it's probably time to leave Virginia. Things aren't looking good. James was one of the 24 student-slash-militiamen to raid the governor's house and secure a couple

of humdrum muskets. He's doing his bit. By this time, the Continental Congress had appointed George Washington to lead the troops, and Washington was heading up north. James had had a taste of military action and wanted more. Perhaps the news of the death of one of his brothers.

This is Spence, the one who's only one year younger than him. Ooh. Yeah, maybe this made up his mind. He's got to go and do something with his life. Everyone's dying all around him. Why is he Spence though? Is that a war thing or just an illness? He was always a sickly child.

He managed to get into his late teenage years, but eventually he just dies. So yeah, I mean, that's one brother and both his parents. Yeah. Yeah, it's one brother and both his parents. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a particularly great start. So he's going to go and make something out of himself in this war. Yeah. That's what he decides to do.

So he signs up. And, inspired by George Washington, he refused any payment for his service, just like George Washington did. How honourable. Yes, and how naive. Yeah. If honourable. Yes, and how naive. If George Washington had money, James did not. He couldn't afford to do this, but he was young and he didn't care about things like money, not when honour was around. That'll keep you warm at

night when you're fed. Yes. So, soon enough, James was marching north with the rank of lieutenant. Yes, I mean, after all, north with the rank of lieutenant. Ooh. Yes, I mean, after all, he went to William and Mary. He was going to go in as an officer. Oh, of course. Yes. So when did the language change from a lieutenant, which is the UK, British way, to lieutenant, which is the American pronunciation? It was the moment the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Ah. Yeah, that was one of the small clauses. It's when they took the U out of colour as well. Ah, yes. Yeah. Well, gentlemen, we shall sign the Declaration of Independence. Hot damn, we're done, boy! Get your muskets, man!

That's pretty much the change. It happened surprisingly quickly. Gonna pop down the sidewalk and get some soda. Yeah. Fetch me a Bud Light. I'm just being offensive now. apologize to all our american listeners i'd like to think there was a committee off to the side saying look if we're going to become independent can we change a couple of things here yeah i don't like the u in color i've never particularly liked the h and herbs

and and and center why spell it with re that's? That's ridiculous. E-R, it's an R sound. Yeah. I agree, yes. We should spell it that way, yes. Let's say aluminium in a strange way for no reason. No, they say the correct way. We say it the wrong way due to a misprinting in a British textbook. Oh, do we?

That's the reason we say it incorrectly. Oh, fine, I give the American one. They win that. You win that one, America. You win that one. As well as the war. Right, okay. Where were we? Oh, yes, James. He's marching off, isn't he? And he as the war. Right, okay. Where were we?

Oh, yes, James. He's marching off, isn't he? And he's a lieutenant. That's it. That's how that tangent started, yes. So he's a lieutenant, not a lieutenant. And he served under William Washington. Oh?

Yeah, William Washington was the cousin to the general. Possibly a second cousin. Yeah, so that's who he's serving under. Nice. A captain in the army. They arrive just in time to see the retreat from New York. Things aren't going well. The British are coming.

The British are coming. James and the other Virginian militia thought it shameful and denounced the militia from other states. We won't run. We'll stand and fight. We're Virginia men. Operation Human Shield. Yeah, they soon learned that fighting a war was tough.

After a while, the Virginian unit was reduced from 700 to 200. From 700 to two. This was due to death, injury, sickness, and desertion. Out of the 17 officers that were signed up, only four remained fit to fight. So he was still around when George Washington, with the crossing of the Delaware, for a surprise attack on the German mercenary troops stationed in Trenton, which we briefly covered in Washington's episode.

This, if you remember, is the daring nighttime raid over the icy river. Yes. It almost ended in disasters. Communication was poor. But the Continental troops managed to get close to the camp. Eventually, the Hessian guards raised the alarm and they attempted to ready their cannons.

William Washington led a charge to try and stop the cannons from being activated and was shot. Someone needed to take over. So the command fell on the 19 year old James. And then the luckiest thing in James Monroe's life

happened. He was about to shoot his rifle, his musket. The bullet, the ball, rebounded off a tree. Hit another tree comically. Then hit past a duck which fell over very funny as well feathers in the air hilarious yeah bounced off a wooden plank yeah

there's part of a house you know the wooden beam and hit him in the hat oh and he thought i'm dead i'm still alive like pats himself down yeah takes his hat off yeah and there's a book on top of his head and the bullets inside the book because he there's a book on top of his head. And the bullet's inside the book. Because he always kept a book on his head. You're not far off. Really? It wasn't quite that comical or cinematic.

Okay. But it does involve a musket and a ball. Ooh. Yes. He was shot in the chest. Ooh. Oh, yes. The musket ball lodged in his shoulder. It severed an artery.

He fell to the floor, bleeding to death. Yeah, that's not an easy fix. Well, he was fortunate, but this isn't the lucky thing. He was fortunate because there was a battlefield doctor nearby who was able to stem the flow just in time to save his life. Wow. The reason why he was incredibly lucky is because the raid was successful a doctor nearby who was able to stem the flow just in time to save his life. Wow. The reason why he was incredibly lucky is because the raid was successful,

everyone celebrating, and afterwards George Washington himself came to see his cousin, who he had heard had been shot during the raid, and his young right-hand man, this young lieutenant named James Monroe. George Washington immediately named James Monroe. George Washington immediately promotes James Monroe to captain. Oh. Oh, yes. More importantly to James and the promotion, George Washington now knows his name.

Yes. That's quite good. Why the heck would you promote somebody because they got shot? Morale's low at this time, but they have just achieved the first big thing in quite some time in this war. So everyone's feeling happy. Some brave troops. I don't know.

Why not? I could have appeared there, stood in the battlefield, got shot in the face, and then go, promotion, please. Gone from private to commander, you know. Maybe people were doing that.

Shooting themselves in the foot looking for a promotion. Quite a top-heavy structure, though, for the army, then. Actually, that was a genuine problem in the Continental Army. Yeah, there were lots of rich people who had sons that wanted their sons to be officers, as we'll see in a moment. This becomes a problem. So, yeah, James is now captain.

Well done, him. He then spends ten weeks in agony recovering. Eventually he's well enough to attempt to join the forces again, but it soon became clear that this promotion was actually a curse. Because as captain, he is now required to raise his own troops. But being relatively poor, he was unable to do so. He couldn't ease the transition from civilian to soldier for people like richer captains could. So if... Do the captains have to pay their own troops then?

No, they wouldn't pay, but they have to raise the troops, get them to enrol, get them inspired to join in basically. Oh, and with cash? Well, officially no, but it's always so much easier to get someone to do something if you're wanting to grease the wheels a bit. Okay. So it's more of a sort of position thing, position thing, like I've got more money, so therefore I'm better, follow me. Yeah, we'll follow you. And also, join up, I'll give you this money, but be quiet about it kind of thing.

This isn't your pay, but yeah, come on, come along. Have a drink on me. Bonus. And this envelope kind of thing. But, yeah, James just couldn't do that. And raising troops was tricky enough for the US forces. And if you haven't, if you've not got money behind you, you found it very hard.

And that's what James found. Yeah. Yeah, so instead, James asks his Uncle Joseph for help. Uncle Joe. Oh, good old Uncle Joe for help. Uncle Joe. Oh, good old Uncle Joe. Good old Uncle Joe. Uncle Joe was able to pull some strings to help him get back in the fight. Due to Washington, as in George Washington, knowing his name,

a place was found for him as an aide-de-camp to General William Stirling. Oh, aide-de-camp. Now, due to this move, he soon came to know many of the rising stars in the army. Oh, Odecamp. included a man named Lafayette who I have not mentioned yet which is bizarre I've managed to name this far yes you would know his name he's very famous in the story of the revolution the fact I got through Washington's episode without mentioning him is a bit odd to be honest because he's a huge part of George Washington's story but just for time reasons I decided to leave Lafayette out thinking we'll do an episode on him one day. Well, that'd be nice. Yeah. But he was a French aristocrat who came over from France, and he was young, he was inspired,

and Washington was generally getting annoyed with all these young Frenchmen coming along trying to get experience, but Lafayette was a bit different. He came up to Washington and said, I want to learn from you, not we're from France, we obviously know what we're doing. And Washington took an immediate like to the young man and sort of took him under his wing, almost becoming a surrogate father figure to the young Lafayette. The two were very close. Why didn't you mention him? Because he'll have his own episode one day.

Yeah, he was also good friends with Alexander Hamilton at this time and he also meets Monroe at this time. Okay. Is Lafayette's full name, is it? His first name Lafayette? No, his name's not actually Lafayette at all. He's Marquis de Lafayette. Marquis de Lafayette? Yeah, so James, James Monroe becomes a bit of a Francophile

at this time. He's very inspired by his new French friends. Loving the ideals of the French aristocrats. Equally, his hatred for the British this time. He's very inspired by his new French friends, loving the ideals of the French aristocrats. Equally, his hatred for the British grew. I mean, understandably, he's fighting them, but he's now sitting around

with a bunch of Frenchmen who really despise the British. So, yes, he becomes very anti-British, very pro-France. During a battle shortly afterwards, Lafayette was shot and fell at James's feet. Lafayette got back up again and helped lead the men out of trouble, but he was definitely quite wounded. So James helps his friend seek medical care and stays with him throughout the

night. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Then during Valley Forge, if you remember, that's where they all sat around and froze for a while. James refused to go home, like many officers did, and suffered the cold and disease and starvation with the men. Respect. Oh, yes. He managed to stay with the troops until after the Battle of Monmouth, but then his financial situation caught up with him. He had no money and he wasn't being paid. This is a problem. He just ran out of money. Couldn't he just like ring HR and say actually could you put them on the payroll

please? They were really lacking in an HR department back then. Really? Yeah it was rudimentary stuff. Oh animals. So he headed to Philadelphia instead where his uncle was a member of the Continental Congress. His uncle, Uncle Joe, knows people. If his plan was to figure out a way to make money, this was soon abandoned when the British soon turned their attention south. James had letters of recommendation from Alexander Hamilton and even George Washington himself. Wow. Washington writing,

It is with great pleasure I take this occasion to express to you the high opinion I have of his worth. Writing about James Monroe, I mean, that's a good thing to have in your pocket. So he was soon given the rank of lieutenant colonel in a planned regiment in Virginia. However, financial troubles had not gone away, and James could still not recruit anyone. So he was angry at his fellow Virginians for refusing to sign up, stating that they had reacted to the attacks on their own country in the way that they would react to hearing about similar events in ancient Rome. Oh, Rome.

Then he turned around and high-fived someone for the Rome reference. Woo, Rome! Woo! Again, he had to return to his uncle, who was now back in Virginia. Do you think his uncle's getting annoyed at this point? Probably. Stop asking me for a... Do your own thing! Come on!

Yeah, there's a knock on the door. Oh, yes. James, I can tell it's you above a knock. What do you want? Yeah, you want money and positions, don't you? Right, okay. Let's see what I can do. Well, it's okay, because Uncle Joe is able to persuade his bitter nephew to go back to school.

That's what you need to do. You dropped out of college. Go back to school. Go and train to be a lawyer. I know just the man, the new governor to Virginia, a man named Thomas Jefferson. He's got a bit of spare time. He's got a bit of spare time. He's teaching a bit of law on the side. Why don't you go and study law under him? So that's what he goes to do. Yes. He meets up with Jefferson, and the two instantly get on with each other.

There's a 15-year age difference here, but the two get on like peas in a pod. I suppose just one being a slightly older, wiser pea and the other one being a petit pois. And he'd love that because he's a Francophone. Yes, he's a Francophone. They're BFFs then. Yes, sort of mentor kind of BFFs.

That's what happens. Jefferson teaches James Law, but also history, philosophy. They read a lot of Plutarch, a lot of Tacitus. A lot of Cicero. All the fun stuff. All the fun stuff. Oh, yes. But also more modern things like Newton, Locke, Bacon. Yeah, so it was getting a wide education.

It wasn't just law. Of course, yeah. By this point, Newton is practically brand new. Oh, yeah, yeah. This is new thinking. Gravity? God, he discovered that. We were all floating around before.

So much easier now everything's pinned to the ground. Anyway, James was forced to sell his farm at this point, so moved into a 300-acre farm instead. His finances aren't going well. His sister by this point had married and taken his two brothers. Remember, he's got two surviving brothers. So they went with the sister. By this point, the British were closing in and the capital had been moved to Richmond. Jefferson asked Monroe to move with him to continue their studies. Uncle Joe urged him to

go with Jefferson. And I'll quote, you do well to cultivate his friendship. hinting that Jefferson might end up leading a force and James might well find himself with a command. So yeah, basically stick with Jefferson. He's going places. If you've made friends with him, stick to him. To me, that sounds like, follow him, get away from me. Yes, probably. Do what you want, James.

Just move to Richmond. Yeah, yeah. Jefferson is the best. Move to Richmond. Move anywhere. Just go away. Leave me in peace. Anyway, sure enough, the prediction's correct. Jefferson makes James a full colonel in the militia, puts him in charge of communications between Carolina and the Virginia militia. James spends a while dashing all over the state, establishing flows of intelligence. However, despite the promise of a battlefield command,

Jefferson proved that it was not just money holding James back in this regard, because Jefferson was unable to raise troops either. Was Jefferson rich? Comparatively, obviously. It's just hard to raise troops when you're so obviously losing. Yeah, that's true.

Come on, guys! Things are not going well at this point for them. You're standing there with a torn uniform, bullet wounds in the arm, half a leg. Yeah. Come on, guys! It's a great life. You slowly topple over. Yeah, it's not great. The British seize Richmond,

burn it. George Washington sends Lafayette in an attempt to hold them off. So James Monroe uses this opportunity to visit his friend. Hey, it's Lafayette. Maybe he can give me a command. But he was disappointed. Lafayette was unable to do anything

for him. It was a nice meeting. Friends got back together, but the Continental Army was just full of officers, like I hinted at before. They're the sons of rich families and foreign aristocrats wanting experience. There's just no room for this relatively poor man. It's no good just knowing George Washington.

You need to be one of the real elites if you want a real command. Yeah, you've got to talk the talk and chink my cash. Yeah. Not long after this, James Monroe's two friends, Alexander Hamilton and Lafayette, both take part in the Battle of Yorktown that ended the war. Yay!

James has to swallow his resentment and heads back to his uncle. Oh, no! I thought you'd gone! His uncle suggested that he run for the virginian general assembly it's all the way over there get some political experience just anything anything james do something this was a seat james easily won i mean he's got his letter of recommendation from washington still i mean that's a golden ticket, that is. Yeah. Yeah.

And also his growing friendship with Thomas Jefferson, so he easily gets a seat. However, Jefferson was unable to see him elected because Jefferson's wife was ill. So this is when Martha's about to die. Aww. So Jefferson's not around. His mentor's not around.

Uncle Joe had decided to go off to Philadelphia For a while See ya How will you be back uncle? I don't know James So needy So he's all on his own Well not quite because his school mate

Marshall, do you remember Marshall? Oh John Marshall He makes the amps. Yeah. He was elected with James Monroe. Oh, okay. Which is quite nice. Added to this, James was admitted to the bar at this point, so he's now a lawyer. Ah, evil. Yes.

But life was hardly fast-paced. The war had left people poor and unable to afford lawyers, and the Assembly didn't do much. It was full of rich planter- class men who had got what they wanted out of the war they weren't going to go around messing things up by proposing laws or anything so the assembly just turned into a club really i'll quote here they amuse themselves with talk of horse racing runaway negroes and yesterday's plays oh Oh, lovely. Yeah. Yeah, that's how they amuse themselves, apparently.

Yeah. James Monroe joins in, gambling, socialising. He was unable to earn much money, but he did manage to acquire over 100,000 acres of land. Wow. However, all this was in the barren west, and it was completely worthless. Oh.

For now. The hope is that at some point it will gain value. He's got that on the back burner. An investment. Yes, exactly. Hopefully one day that will turn good. After a year, he'd not really achieved anything. But then came an opening

to join the Confederation Congress. He had six months before he needed to be in Annapolis, where the Congress was, so he spent his time in Monticello with Jefferson. Jefferson, a bit down at this time. His wife had just died. Aw.

Yeah. She's not bad. Exactly. Jefferson was also off to join the Congress, so they travelled there together. Oh, BFF. Yeah. James was completely stone broke. Oh dear.

Yes. So when they arrived, Jefferson looked after him, perhaps using his friendship to help him get over the death of his wife. The two were always together, apparently. It plays at dinner parties, social events. Monroe's 25 now and seems to enjoy the perks of being a war hero and a friend to famous

men. We know of at least one case of him getting to know the ladies in the Madness. However, he found it easier to woo the ladies than to hold on to them because once they found out how much he was worth, it kind of

became very clear that he wasn't really part of high society. He was maybe okay to flirt with at the party, but not worth spending time on. You get the sense yet again he's a bit of an outsider. That's really sad though. Yeah.

Like, oh, I love you, you're the most amazing man in the world. How much? How large is your tract of land? I'm sorry. See how big your sack is. Money sack. Money sack. Yeah.

But it's not all flirting with the ladies. James has work to do as a member of the Congress, following the lines of the other Virginian delegates, mainly because he's young. However, he soon realised he had a chance

to help his financial woes. If he could turn his land in the West into something worthwhile, he would be sorted. During the summer recess, therefore, he endeavoured to go and look at his land.

Let's go and see what he's got. And I'll quote, It is possible I may lose a scalp, but if either a little fighting or a great deal of running will save it, I shall escape safe. There you go. It's a bit of bravado. I'm going to go off into the west on my own,

brave the elements with my horse. Yeah. So he sails up the Hudson to make his first part of the journey. This boat he was on followed the ladies, apparently. Yes, he made an advance on a woman that he rather liked. She

rejected him out of hand. One passenger wrote that it was because he lacked, and I quote, gaiety and liveliness. It was a bit of a bore, apparently. So, miss, let me tell you about my massive investment portfolio. Would you like to see it? I can get it out if you want.

It wasn't a winning chat-up line. No, it's not. No, it really wasn't. It's also speculated that he just generally wasn't very attractive. Oh! Poor attractive. Oh! Poor James. Oh, it's the hunchback isn't it, and the squint. Yes. And his snaggle tooth. Yeah, I mean

none of these things were going that well. And the horns. Well, I mean, he was meant to be a tall strapping young lad, but I don't know, maybe he's a bit weathered. I don't know. Full of bullet holes. Oh yeah, he's certainly got one of them. Anyway, James gets over this and spends several months touring the land of the West,

returning early because reports of a Native American uprising was imminent, so he thought best get back. After a while of working for Congress, then to move to New York by this point, he met someone who would change his life. Oh. Eliza Nortwright, a young, beautiful daughter of a British officer. Ooh. Eliza Nortwright. A young, beautiful daughter of a British

officer. Eliza was highly educated, could sing and played the piano forte, which is what they called a piano before they moved over loud keys. Some people found Eliza aloof with her slight English accent and her education.

She didn't think. But James found her perfect. Here's someone he could talk to about his massive investment portfolio. And she was genuinely interested. So really, let's listen.

Let's see those numbers. So the two married. Oh, that was fast. It took a bit more time in real life. I'm having to condense. But yes, they married soon afterwards. They get on very well. However, as Eliza became pregnant,

the reality of James having no money kicked in once again. They were forced to move from New York and back to Virginia where James could set up as a lawyer. They needed money to move, though. There was a knock on Uncle Joe's door. Oh. He doesn't live in Philadelphia, does he? Well,

he's moved around again. His uncle gave him a thousand dollars. Wow. To help with the move. You get the impression that was just, here, take the money and go. Didn't even open the door fully, just the envelope came out. They moved to a simple house in Frederickburg.

Monroe had managed to set up as a lawyer but as money was still hard to come by he was paid mostly in favours and goods. Not that kind of favour, Jamie. Well, I assume not. I didn't say that. That's not what I read anyway. No, I mean, money

just wasn't working very well post-war so people were generally offering to do work. If you do this, I'll give you a punnet of grapes. Exactly. I mean, I'd like to think he was charging more than a punnet of grapes for his time, but who knows. He soon found himself wearied by travelling from court to court. But he had a new daughter to celebrate. Yes.

But he was despondent that he was unable to join the growing call for a convention to redraw the government. However, his forced retirement from politics seems to do Monroe some good at this point. Over the summer, he and his wife and their young daughter seem very happy. Everything's good. And then there's a knock on the door. It sounds suspiciously like James Monroe knocking on his uncle's door, but James Monroe's the one hearing it. How peculiar. Who could be knocking on the door?

Oh, it's his younger brother. Oh, yes. Their sister had kicked him out for being lazy. Sighing, Monroe raided what little savings he had managed to get and paid for his 16-year-old brother to go to Edinburgh to go to uni. Oh, Edinburgh. Edinburgh University in Scotland, yes. A very prestigious university.

Still now, but definitely back then. So, brother, you know how we've been at war with the British for the past seven years? Why don't you go there and learn? I'm going to send you there. Have fun. Monroe's obviously thought about what he'd do if he was ever in Uncle Joe's position. He's learned from his uncle. Send the problem as far away as possible.

Yeah, no matter how much it costs. After a while, news comes through that the Constitutional Convention had created a brand new government. It was now up to the states to ratify the document created. Ooh, I wonder what happens here. Oh, well, Monroe was very enthusiastic about the Constitution to begin with. But when details came out, he began to worry. Like many Virginians, including his uncle, Monroe was not convinced that giving away their rights to a new federal government was a good idea.

So he joined the ratification debate. And I'll quote him here, We have struggled too long to bring about this revolution. If the federal government has a right to access direct legislation within states, their respective sovereignties are at an end. He argued. This is the point he argued. Everyone clapped politely. But then Henry stood up and gave his argument and everyone was far more impressed because his argument had a thunderstorm in it. Yes.

Yes. The tree split into twain. Yes, exactly. So he was joining in with this, but he's not one of the leaders. He's certainly not up there with the likes of Madison and Henry. Just an observer.

Yeah, he's saying his bit. So in the end, the votes are counted. Monroe votes no. We should not have this constitution. But as we saw, Madison wins the vote overall, and the ratification occurs. Henry, Monroe, and the other anti-federalists

leave the Congress and retire to a nearby tavern to discuss how to overturn the vote. Which I like. It's like, damn it, we lost. What should we do? Pop? Hey!

Okay, but we're only talking about how we're going to overturn the vote. And we're only going to stay for one. Flash cut. Two in the morning. Another thing. What about Henry? He's dead.

They're all dead. He's dead. We're all dead. Like our country. Yeah, it was a depressing night. It was, yeah. Well, it was decided the best thing that they could do would be to elect as many anti-federalists as possible into the government so the Congress could then commit suicide. Yeah, okay. Yeah yeah that's their plan so henry suggests that monroe run against madison that was probably about half 11 everyone's still kind of making sense at that point yeah you know you should run against

madison you you could easily win the voters would probably get confused. You've got practically the same names. Pretty much. Who's of Ricky or Bab? However, as we saw in Madison's episode, Madison defeats Monroe. The two were fairly close friends by this point because they knew each other through Jefferson. And the rivalry did not seem to impede on their friendship. They travelled around a lot, as we saw, to debate and campaign against each other, but they went together, so no hard feelings here.

Monroe was forced to go back to being a lawyer. He didn't win. He was not best pleased. His farm was not doing well. Tobacco had ruined the soil. One of his slaves kept trying to escape. It was just a pain. Yeah. And then there was a knock on the door.

Monroe sighs. He knows that knock. Yes, that's right. It's his brother. Edinburgh University had had enough of him. They'd kicked him out for drinking too much whiskey and for getting to know too many of the ladies. That sounds like a great uni session.

It sounds like he had a good time. He's going to say as well, if you're in a university in Scotland, you're going to drink a ton of whisky, aren't you? Oh, you are. I like the way he turned up with his arm round a young Scottish lady and a bottle of whisky in one hand. And a kilt, wearing a kilt.

Okay, my new brother! I'm home! Hooray! Yeah. Monroe resigns himself to having to train his brother in the ways of the law. However, good news. Senator Grayson dies. Yay!

I mean, good news for Monroe, and you'll see why in a moment. I'm sure the Graysons were quite upset by this. If you remember the Grayson family, we apologise. Yes. But it's great news for Monroe because he was selected to serve out the remainder of Grayson's term. He becomes a senator. He puts his brother in the care of a local planter whom he was friends with. Just teach him to be a farmer or something.

Just keep an eye on him. I've got to go off and be a senator. So, Jefferson had returned from Paris by this point, and he was now the Secretary of State. Washington's now the President. Jefferson helps the Monroes find a house. Eliza apparently was worried she would not look the part in Philadelphia. But James Monroe wins some points here.

Oh? Oh, yeah. Because he stated that her beauty alone would make her the most elegant woman in the capital. Aw. Well done, James. That's smoothly done. Yeah. But that's something a poor person would say, though, isn't it?

Yes, it is. He's in his head. He's going, oh, I can't afford to buy her a dress. Quick, just say anything. Say anything. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's better than just shrugging. That's right.

It's well done. Anyway, the Moreaus settle in quickly. James was awed by some of the big names present, but he soon started to get annoyed. He disliked the Senate's privacy laws in particular, partly because they were undemocratic in his eyes, partly because how was he supposed to get his name about if everything was a secret? This is meant to be in his eyes, partly because how was he supposed to get his name about if everything

was a secret? This is meant to be helping his career, but you can't tell anyone what he's doing. Why do you think it was all secretive? They didn't want the general public to be able to sway the senators' opinions. Senators were meant to be able to debate without worrying about the common people saying things like, you can't say that, we elected you. So keep tight control over what you want. Yeah, essentially. Excellent. So anyway, Munro proposes to get rid of the secrecy laws. This is just defeated out of hand.

So, big defeat for him. Not great. And then news of his brother reaches him. He'd eloped with his friend's daughter. How old is daughter? Oh, I didn't think to check that. Yeah. So Monroe is forced to support his brother and his new sister-in-law. Anyway, he continues with his work and becomes one of the first senators to publicly disagree

with Washington over the appointment of Thomas Jefferson's replacement in France. So he's starting to get noticed. By this time, the French Revolution was kicking into gear. Disturbing news of his friend Lafayette and his family being imprisoned was disturbing. But there's little anyone can do, so they just get on with things. Around this time, he got caught up with a problem with another old friend, however, Alexander Hamilton. Oh, yes, it started when two men were arrested for counterfeiting.

These two men were named Clingman and Reynolds. This was not good news for them, but Reynolds had a get-out-of-jail-free card. He wrote to Alexander Hamilton asking for help. I'm in prison, get me out. Please. Alexander Hamilton refused. Outraged, Reynolds talked to his partner,

who had just been released on bail, and instructed him what to do. So Clingman approached Monroe and told the astonished Monroe that he and Reynolds had information on Alexander Hamilton. By now, less a friend, more of a thorn in the Republican's side, Monroe's thinking, oh yeah, what have you got on it? So Monroe consulted with two other congressmen, and together they approach Hamilton. Now, for those Hamilton musical fans, this is the scene where Jefferson, Madison, and Burr confront Hamilton, but in real life it didn't happen like that.

It was actually Monroe and two others that no one's ever heard of. Okay. Did they rap? They did rap, though. Okay. It's the only time that they did rap, but this was it. Well, if it's time to do it, now's it. Yeah. Did they rap? They did rap, though. Besides, the only time that they did rap was this was it. Well, if it's time to do it, now's it. Yeah. Well, Hamilton

explained the irregularities in his account that had been highlighted by Reynolds. It turned out that Hamilton had been paying Reynolds to look the other way while Hamilton had an affair with Reynolds' wife. Oh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. That's... This committee of three were shocked nonetheless

however cleared hamilton of wrongdoing he hasn't actually done anything illegal just a bit morally dubious that's like the um oh what's it called oh what's that film indecent proposal yeah it's a bit like that see you want to see the musical now. Not really. No, no, you're still not interested. Okay, well. Anyway, someone wrote up the dossier of evidence that the committee had collected and looked for somewhere safe to keep it. I know, Jefferson's got a vault in Monticello.

That's safe. I'll give it to Jefferson to look after. I'm sure he won't do anything with it. He's certainly going to look. It's just a whole bunch of evidence damning Hamilton. I'm sure it's safe in his political rival's hands. In the vault. In Monticello. Here you go

Jefferson. So anyway, put a pin in that story because it comes back later. The next big event in Monroe's life was when George Washington was looking for new ambassadors for Britain and France. He sent Jay to speak with the British, as we've discussed before. Jay needs to go and talk about impressment.

And for France, he approaches Monroe. Washington realised they were going to have to deal with Britain, and that would anger the French, so best send the French someone that they like. Charm offensive. Yeah, exactly. So Monroe was told to make sure that the French knew, and I quote, in the case of war with any nation on earth, we will consider France our first natural ally. I bet they said the same to the British as well. Probably not at this time. Washington also added, while you're there, Monroe, just check out their navy and their farms and their commerce and generally anything. Just get a sense of what's going on over there.

See what they're doing. Apparently there's a revolution. Just see what's going on. there. See how they're doing. Apparently there's a revolution. Just see what's going on. Eliza, very happy about this. Paris was widely seen as the capital of the world around this point. Theatres, the lights, the art, the food. It's where everything happens.

Streets of blood. We'll get to that. Beautiful corner shop guillotine. Well, Eliza, very excited. So Eliza and their daughter, Eliza, would be going with james safe yes they boarded the cincinnatus in baltimore high-fiving each other on the the plank up to the ship for the roman reference oh do you think it was like a nationwide drinking at this point yeah i think so every time you hear something Roman... Rome! Drink! Woo!

Yeah. Anyway, it was an uneventful journey, apparently. It was quick, though. They managed to cross in just over a month, and they arrived in France in the start of August 1794. For those of you who do not know French history too well...

Nope. That date will mean something if you do. This is pretty much the exact time where the period called the Reign of Terror ended. We can't go into details. The French Revolution is hugely complex and is in full swing. As each

new faction swung into power, they executed the previous faction. And then those on the fringes of that faction grew in power, took over, and executed those in charge, and then moved into the middle, and then the fringes from that faction moved in, and so on and so on. It was just... Stable.

Oh, yeah, it's a mess, basically. In the last year alone, there had been over 16,500 official executions. Wow. Via guillotine, if you were lucky. Mass drownings, if you were not. That's like a small stadium's worth. Over half a million people lay in makeshift prisons awaiting execution.

Oh. Yeah. And during all of this mob violence across the country, it claimed the lives of at least 25,000 people. Those estimates are generous. The Monroes arrive in France. They step off the boat into a country literally ripping itself apart. Their belongings were looted before they could get them from the stevedores. Oh, wow. Yeah, they set up in a hotel and soon learned of the wagons of people that would be driving past towards their deaths.

Just imagine the two of them there, little Eliza between them. Happy holiday, honey. Second honeymoon. Yeah. But you can imagine that little Eliza, eyes wide, massive smile on her face. This is brilliant! The water in France is red! It tastes weird, though.

Tastes like pennies. No, Eliza, no! More shockingly, however, was the news that one of the leaders of the Reign of Terror, a man named Robespierre, had himself been executed four days previously. This was huge news, shockwaves going through the country. When they arrived in Paris, they were very relieved to find that the death of Robespierre seemed to have calmed things down slightly. People were looking forward to not living through something that is known as the Reign of Terror anymore. Yeah.

As he was. Yeah. That said, although there were no riots, the government was a complete mess and Monroe was just ignored. So he decides on a bold step. He wrote to the president of the national convention, bypassing the chaotic executive branch they had at the time, and asked them to recognise him as the ambassador to their sister republic. Then he attended the convention and gave a speech. He had not been told to do this. And I will quote a very brief part of it here. America has had her day of oppression, difficulty and war.

France, our friend and ally, whose aides in the contest have now embarked on the same noble career. What is he saying? I cannot understand. Is he speaking English? He can speak fluent French by this point. But he has this weird accent. It sounds Scottish. Like I'm in New York.

What does that mean? The convention loved it. Oh, really? Oh, hugely. This goes down brilliantly. Monroe was kissed on both cheeks many times. The flags of both countries were displayed in the hallways.

James and Eliza were soon celebrities in the recovering Paris. The streets were filthy and bloodstained and the shops were looted and closed and the buildings were drab and damaged. But the Munros were happy because they were now famous. They were celebrities. He uses his political clout to get Thomas Paine freed from prison. I've not really mentioned Thomas Paine before, but he wrote a very famous leaflet called Common Sense. He was a big part in the revolution. He'd gone over to France because he loved revolutions. I've not really mentioned Thomas Paine before, but he wrote a very famous leaflet called Common Sense.

He was a big part in the revolution. He'd gone over to France because he loved revolutions, and they threw him in prison. But yes, he manages to free Thomas Paine, who was just a bit grumpy about everything, really. I haven't really got time to go into him. Maybe we'll do an episode on him one day. Do you think they were so popular?

You know those carts going past people being executed? I imagine they've got their noose around their neck already and they're handing them out. They're like, sign this! Well, there were fewer carts with people being offered to be executed by this point. But yeah, I'd like to think they were that famous. After bringing Thomas Paine, they discover someone else is in prison nearby.

Lafayette's wife. Oh. Yes. As I've said, the revolutions revolved several times by this point and the Lafayettes are not Oh Yes As I've said The revolution's Revolved several times By this point And the Lafayettes Are not in favour No

No And Madame Lafayette Yeah Is nearby In prison Monroe knew that He could not officially intervene In the release of a French person

From a French prison So instead Eliza decides To go to the prison Just to see what she can do And Monroe was worried That this would be dangerous And it would be But Eliza was determined.

She sets out in the coach, which always drew a crowd. It was the American ambassador coach that they drove around in, and people wanted to see them. Blue patch, white stars, red stripes. A big eagle. Yeah. Yeah, it was a bit ostentatious. It did it on a Zip-A-Way pass.

Yeah, well, back then, they had someone humming it on the roof. Bit ostentatious. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- Now, cut the man on the gates to the prison. Got him. Yeah. What's his name? Pierre. Pierre. Pierre, he's doing his job. He's guarding the gate to the prison. I am standing here, smoking my cigarette. Yeah. The coach pulls up.

Who's that? Pierre asks. Who is that? Oh, that's the American ambassador's coach. What is he doing here? It's not him. It's his wife. His wife? Yes, uh,

she's here to see Madame Lafayette. Sacre bleu! You just know this poor guard groans inwardly. He had survived the reign of terror exactly by not getting involved in these kind of things. Yeah. So why on earth is the ambassador's wife to

America here to see Madame Laffayette oh what do i do only two days of retirement it's like don't i let her in do i let madame lafayette out oh this is awful eventually it was decided to bring madame lafayette to the gates don't let anyone in or out they can talk through the gates there was a very emotional scene where Eliza said she would do whatever she could, and soon afterwards, Madame Lafayette was released and headed directly to the Monroe's house. Yes, the political pressure had worked. Six days later, a very shabby 14-year-old turned up at their door. Who are you, they inquired. It was none other than George Washington. their door. Who are you, they inquired. It was none other than George Washington. Huh? Yes, this is George Washington Lafayette, Lafayette's son, who is called George Washington. Okay. As you can tell,

they were close. Yes. Elated, Madame Lafayette asked that Monroe secure a passport for young George, and he was then sent off to his godfather George Washington himself nice yes so things are going pretty well aren't they they even started furniture shopping there was a lot of antique furniture in the uh the shops at the moment for some reason I love the way they've gone for all the shabby chic look those bullet holes look amazing just got the impression of uh the Munro's just completely oblivious of the revolution that's fine just walking around this still people bleeding in the streets they're just all save me oh look at that table wow isn't amazing we could buff out those embedded sword marks it's fine it's fine i love how they've

stained the wood red so yeah i think things going well, things soured very quickly all of a sudden because the Jay Treaty was passed. The French officials were outraged. But this being the French Revolution, the French officials could not be outraged for long because the convention was stormed by an angry mob and a delegate was killed. Once again, the government changed.

And this new government, called the Directory, took one look at the Jay Treaty and announced that any alliance between France and the US ceased to exist. Oh. Yeah. Monroe soon got word that he was being recalled. It being insinuated that he'd failed to keep the French on their side. Furious, Monroe fired off letters pointing out that the French had reason not to trust the US, as Jay had just signed off a treaty with the British. Full of bitterness, the Monroes headed for home. Jefferson greeted them when they got home and a welcome banquet was arranged. Mabinuffa!

Yeah. However, news that his brother Joseph had used his name to run up debts of over $200 did not please Monroe. Oh, for goodness sake. What was more shocking was an angry letter from Alexander Hamilton. He was outraged that the contents of the dossier had been revealed. Not my fault. I just put them safe in their safe. Well, confused, because Munro had been in France.

He didn't know anything about this, so he didn't respond straight away. He was surprised, therefore, when Hamilton turned up at his door the day after he arrived in New York, visiting his in-laws. It probably sounded like that, yes. Hamilton was furious and demanded to know what Monroe had done with the dossier, and if he was responsible for the release of the details. Monroe replied that he had given it to a Virginian friend for safekeeping and he was unaware of any release.

Possibly true. Maybe he didn't know, but I mean, come on, it's fairly obvious that giving it to Jefferson would have resulted in this at some point. So, understandably, Hamilton's not happy. No. He also must have deduced who this Virginian friend was immediately. Yeah, it's Tony Johnson. Yeah.

Tony Johnson. Probably that. Hamilton said, This, as your representation, is totally false. Ooh. Monroe replied, Do you say I represented falsely? You, sir, are a scoundrel.

Oh, yeah, wait, wait, wait. Hold back. Will you just wait? Oh. Hamilton replied, I will meet you like a gentleman. Oh, that's sick. Monroe replies, I'm ready. Get your pistols.

Oh, burn! And Hamilton said, I shall. Oh, MG! Hashtag fights on. Oh, yes. I'm guessing in real life this was a bit more fraught than how it comes across reading it. It's all very polite.

Tallyho, I say. Should we do Dawn tomorrow? Well, yes, I believe I'm through that, dear. But by this time, the other guests in the house had heard the ruckus and had managed to come between the two men. It was decided to let the matter lie until Munro had a chance to talk to the other two men

on the committee and find out exactly what had happened. Hamilton, however, was soon sending more letters. Munro replied, The several explanations which I have made are corded with the truth. If these are not to your satisfaction, I can give no other, unless called on in a way which I wish to avoid, but which I am ever ready to meet.

He's a good shot, though, as well, isn't he? Oh, yes. Yes, and that comes into play in the second. Monroe asked Aaron Burr, of all people, to be his second. Monroe got to know Burr when he was working in Congress. Second? Yes, a second in a duel is the person who holds your pistols for you, goes and negotiates with the other person's second, see if there's any way to get past this dispute.

Okay. It's your right-hand man, basically. Okay. So he gives you a wet towel and stuff and takes the mouth guard out and splashes the water on your face. He's got the orange quarters. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing. Gives you a pep talk.

Yeah. Come on! Come on! All we need to do, point the gun, pull the trigger. In that direction. And who knows what might happen after that. These guns are awful. Burt agreed to be his second. However, he was able to de-escalate the situation.

Helped possibly, as you've already noted, by the fact that Munro was known for being a damn good shot. Yeah, so maybe Burt spoke to Hamilton and went, do you really want to do this? I mean, he can hit a squirrel at 1,500 yards. I've seen it. And he can hit a fly at 10 yards. Yeah.

Into the squirrel. Yeah. Then into a bear. It's bizarre, but it's impressive. Yeah. So the two men back down, leaving Burr and Hamilton completely free to have their own jewel in seven years' time.

Oh, brilliant. Yes. The Mummos then head home to Virginia and meet up with Madison and his lovely new wife, Dolly. Ah, Dolly. Eliza and Dolly soon were firm friends. BFFs. Oh, yes. Then the Monroe's

settle down for a bit. James attempted to get his farm working properly again, ordering his 25 slaves to clear the land a bit and to plant some more tobacco. So, easy to forget Monroe's got slaves, because he's very much an absentee slave owner. He's rarely where the slaves are, but... But everyone did back then. In Virginia, yeah.

In Virginia, if you were rich, you were still a huge minority of the population owned slaves, but, yeah, the rich slave owners did. So, they're on the farm, they're trying to get things up and running. Eliza is soon pregnant, and they have a son named James Monroe. Oh, original. Yeah. Hashtag Romans. Woo!

Yes. Just like the Romans. Yeah. Down a jar. Anyway, he was made, at this point, Governor of Virginia. Ooh. A largely ceremonial job at this point. It brought in some money, but it had no real power.

But that probably suited him. More representative, I guess. Yeah, I mean, at this point, the Federalists are in charge of government. So federal power is on the rise, state power is not. So being the governor of a state wasn't as huge a deal. But it came with some money, so go for it. The main event he had to deal with whilst being the governor was a minor slave uprising. Hmm.

Conditions for slaves in Virginia were deteriorating fast at this point. Partly due to the fact that planters were moving away from tobacco, which was incredibly hard to grow, and destroyed your soil, to cotton, much easier. Now, tobacco, like I just said, hard to grow and cultivate, so planters therefore looked after their slaves so they could do it properly. If you've got a slave who can cultivate tobacco well,

look after him, because he'll make you money. Cotton, however, was relatively easy, and anyone could pick it. Incentive to treat slaves well went out the window. And also, women and children can now get onto the fields and join in. Cheery. Oh.

Yeah, so slaves not too happy. And hearing about the conditions of that job as well is horrible because cotton plants aren't nice, lovely plants. They're quite rough and... Oh, yeah, yeah. If you want more details, Mike Duncan's Haitian Revolution series in his Revolutions podcast, he spends a good while going into the details

of what picking cotton was actually like. It was not pleasant. In the slightest. Yeah. So, that's going on. The slave revolt that Monroe has to deal with started with a man named Gabriel who was a blacksmith. He and other slaves would march to Richmond,

capture Monroe, and then demand a ship to escape from the US. This was their plan. Their plan to kidnap Monroe? Yes. Wow. And demand a ship. However, a storm delayed the plan, and the tipped-off government were able to capture the slaves before it really started.

Gabriel had a rope placed around his neck and then was dragged upwards. No quick snap of the neck for him. This, along with the revolution in Haiti, which I just mentioned, had put many Virginians on edge. If the slaves are revolting over there, they might revolt over here. Monroe writes to Jefferson to discuss the events and point out that they could not kill all the troublesome slaves or transport them all away. What on earth can we do jefferson replied and i quote here we are truly to be pitied i'm glad we've rated him so low he said some awful things to jefferson what an absolute must have been so tough for them yeah so stressful yeah well actually it

was a stressful time for Monroe because his son just died of whooping cough. Oh no. Yeah, so he isn't actually having a good time of it. Devastated, he throws himself into his work. What else can he do? Soon afterwards, however, his friend Jefferson becomes president. I was going to say pregnant. No, that would have been tough for the books. Monroe writes to Jefferson again, again talking about this growing slave problem. His main ideas were to settle the troublemakers back in Africa or banish them into the West. As in throw all the slaves into the wild country of the West or go to Africa and punish the people there? No, no, put them back on a slave boat.

Go to the shores of Africa and dump them. And you just know that's going to be dumped somewhere on the continent of Africa to starve. This is Monroe's ingenious idea. Oh, okay. Yeah. Bit of a git. Yeah, he doesn't get very far with these ideas. Good.

Meanwhile, his daughter, who's now 16, amazingly, was comforting her mother, who was still getting over the death of their son. Monroe got home as often as he could. Eliza was already pregnant when her son died, so she soon gives birth to another girl. And then a letter arrives from the president. He was worried that Spain was going to cede Louisiana

to the French, and he needed someone to go over to France and see what's going on. I did look there last time. Well, Jefferson can think of no one better than Monroe. The French loved him. Yeah, let's send him over. Past tense. Monroe, his time as governor coming to an end, agrees to do this.

Before he could go, however, things escalated. The Spanish halted the US's entry into the city of New Orleans, cutting off thousands from the sea, as we have discussed before. This act justifies war, claimed Monroe. Jefferson wanted to see if there was another way, however. Congress approved of Monroe offering nine million dollars to buy New Orleans off the French. Not everyone liked this idea. Some saw it as expansionism. And I'll quote, presently we will

be told we must have Louisiana. Then the gold mines of Mexico. Then Santo Domingo, with their sugar and coffee and all the rest. But what have we to do with territories of other people? Have we not enough of our own land? It's not everyone wanted to go expanding. No, let's establish what we have.

Yeah, this man was told to be quiet. Get out, Jeff. So, Monroe, before leaving, meets with Madison, who is now Secretary of State. Monroe was informed that if he failed in France, he had permission to go to London to see what the British had to offer. Words that did not sit easily with the Francophile Monroe. He doesn't want to go and deal with the British had to offer. Words that did not sit easily with the Francophile Monroe. He doesn't want to go and deal with the British. So the Monroe's set off for New York in a snowstorm. Despite the start, however, the crossing again was swift and uneventful. Their welcome this time was

far from their previous one. Lots of cheering, lots of flags being waved, people kissing people on cheeks. The Monroe's definitely were still well-loved in Paris. And Paris had learnt of their landing very quickly due to Napoleon's new semaphore telegraph system. Oh. Yes. As soon as the Monroe's landed, it just went tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,

across the semaphores, and the Parisians knew the Monroe's were coming. Oh. So they put up their bunting. Oh. Yeah. All very nice. The Monroes settled in quickly and once again were the centre of society,

much to the annoyance of Livingstone, who was the US diplomat who was already in France. It wasn't that there was no one there. Monroe was just being sent as a reinforcement. Now, Livingstone had already put in the groundwork. It turned out that the French were willing to sell the whole of Louisiana for 15 million, as we discussed last time, realising that this deal was too good to pass up.

After all, it was the largest peaceful transfer of land in the history of the world. So Monroe and Livingstone declare that, yeah, we're interested. We could go for that. So word was sent back home. Napoleon is busy with his European wars and weary of his colonies after the Haitian Revolution. He is willing to practically give away the land for one fiftieth of its estimated value. So should we go for it? They send that letter off.

Whilst waiting for the reply, the Moreaus visited the Lafayettes and generally had a nice time. Monroe meets Napoleon and had the following conversation. Are you ready for this? Go on. Okay. Napoleon, you have been here for 15 days. Monroe, oui, monsieur. Napoleon, you speak French.

Monroe, a little, monsieur. Napoleon, you had a good voyage? Yes, monsieur. You came on a frigate? No, a merchant vessel. Riveting stuff. It is. Yeah, there you go.

That was the conversation between Monroe and Napoleon. That's extremely awkward small talk, isn't it? It really is. Things got a bit easier throughout the evening, though. I'm guessing the port was being passed around. Later in the evening, Napoleon pointed out the Americans did very well in their war of independence to beat the British.

Monroe replied that the US would always do well in war. Fight and talk. Napoleon merely replied that the US probably would be in a war with the British again one day. That must have been awkward. Yeah. We'll always do well in war. Just as well, because you'll be fighting them again at some point.

Oh. Do you see that as, well, almost as Napoleon going, yeah, because they always fight, so you're probably going to happen again. I think that's Napoleon just being very aware of politics, so there's no way that war is not going to end up happening on the shores of America again. Anyway, Monroe uses this opportunity to discuss something that was bugging him. The boundaries of the Louisiana Purchase was not actually very clear when it came to West Florida.

This isn't the long, leggy bit of Florida. This is the sort of handle part where it goes up into the mainland of Northern America. Not the wang. No. The bit near New Orleans, sort of. Yeah, I know what you mean. It was back then, anyway. North Florida.

Yeah, yeah. West Florida, as they called it. Yeah. Northwest Florida, yes. Yeah. Yeah, the boundaries weren't clear here. The US thought that they had got it in the purchase. The French and the Spanish, however, didn't, which is a bit of a shame.

Napoleon just dodged the question and moved on, however. Eventually, as we have seen, word came through from home that the purchase could indeed take place. Monroe had succeeded. Livingston was a little bit annoyed that Monroe had stolen his thunder, but Monroe did not care. So now his plan was to go to Spain, work out the details on this disputed boundary in West Florida. He got a promise from France that they would back the US.

Of course you should have it. However, then the ambassador to Britain suddenly resigned. Ooh. Monroe was asked to go to London. You're the biggest name we've got in Europe at the moment. Go to London. Things are hotting up between us. Let's see what you can get out of them. The Monroes did not like the idea, but off they went anyway. To their surprise, however, they got a very warm reception in London. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. Monroe even met George III, and despite despite himself found him to be quite likeable. Monroe had spent his entire life fighting against George III and everything he stood for but reluctantly admitted afterwards I left the king with impressions much more favorable to him than I had ever entertained before. Do you think he's going through one of his crazy spells? It was actually quite fun. It's hilarious. We played with the pink goose.

Kept saying bibble. Yes. Yeah, you can't help but wonder after his recent meeting with Napoleon, he must have been comparing the differences between the two heads of government, between the obvious monarchy and a monarchy dressed up as a republic. And which one's better here? Anyway, due to this welcoming start, Monroe throws himself into dealing with the main issue here, impressment. Got to stop the British stealing our sailors.

However, it soon became clear that this just wasn't going to go anywhere. Britain had the largest navy in the world, and they needed men in its ships to defend themselves from the larger armies on the mainland of Europe. Britain simply weren't going to jeopardise the safety of their nation just because a young country half a world away had asked them, no matter how politely or angrily they were being asked. It just wasn't going to happen.

Even then, perhaps Monroe might have been hopeful of achieving something if it wasn't for an event that had just occurred back at home. It's an event that we've already covered. If you remember Madison's episode, we discussed how Jefferson committed a faux pas when he did not walk the British ambassador, Mr. Mary's

wife, to a table. Mr. Mary was not Mary. No. Oh no. News of his being snubbed reaches Britain, and immediately the Monroes are cut out of society life. Oh. They were then miserable. Winter had hit, smog had descended,

no one was talking to them. They escaped to Cheltenham for a while, but that didn't cheer them up too much. In Gloucestershire? Yes. Wow. Very nice there. Very nice cheese. Yeah. Maybe they sampled cheese. But it wasn't enough. No. No. Monroe decided it would be far more worthwhile to head to Madrid, like he originally planned. Let's go and work out this West Florida problem. So the Monroes moved back to France for a while, where Monroe was outraged to learn that Livingston had suggested that the US would pay 14 million for the Floridas. What are you doing, Livingston? We've already done the deal. Stop trying to make new deals.

Monroe explained that the US would not pay for something twice and squashed the negotiation. Again, Livingston not happy. In response, however, France withdrew their support in the negotiations with Spain. We're no longer going to tell Spain that we think that they should give West Florida to you. Monroe was horrified that the country he had grown up to admire as the pinnacle of moral virtue was turning out to be just like any other country. His balls went burst, doesn't it? Yeah. Still, he heads off to Spain,

leaving his family behind because the route was very dangerous in these times, apparently. And an interesting bit here. Apparently he travelled 24 hours a day, guns at the ready, shifting from one mule to another for a week.

Oh, that's insane. I just have this image of him, matchsticks in his eyes to keep himself awake. Two pistols over his shoulders on a mule going through the Pyrenees. Nice. Every time a farmer stopped to say hello, he'd just point his guns

at them. Scream, leave me alone, leave me alone! Go away! Yeah. Don't touch my donkey! But yeah, I mean, this idea that he didn't sleep for six days, I can't quite believe it, unless he was sleeping on the donkey. Or unless, I imagine they swapped over those other people to ride the donkey, you know. Yeah, but how were they, I suppose you could have wagons, couldn't you?

Yes. Yeah, I just had in my head it's just him on a donkey on his own. Probably not that, is it? Yeah. Anyway, he eventually gets to Madrid looking quite tired. He realises that Pinkney is already there, another

US ambassador. But even with the both of them, it's no good. Spain simply told them that West Florida was never ceded to France, so France could not sell it. We own West Florida. Do one. Aww. Defeated, Monroe reluctantly swept through France to pick up his family and headed back to London.

Back to being outcast. Back to the smog. Yay. Sad news then greeted them. Uncle Joe was dead. No, not Uncle Joe! Exactly. Where's he going to get his money from now?

Or anything. Yeah, so, I mean, that was very sad news. Oh, I didn't even get to see him become president. That was his one wish. Exactly. His dying wish. All of that would have paid off for Uncle Joe if he got to see his nephew become president. Then he could have swapped roles.

Yeah. Oh, poor Uncle Joe. So, everything's a bit sad. Everything's a bit miserable. And then one day, Monroe read in a newspaper that he was being replaced by Pinckney. So, everything's a bit sad. Everything's a bit miserable. And then one day, Monroe read in a newspaper that he was being replaced by Pinckney. It's not how you want to receive that kind of news. No.

Oh. Congress had demanded it, and Jefferson had agreed. Maybe a more pro-British ambassador would work better. Everyone knew Monroe hated the British. Why have we sent someone who hates the British to Britain? Is this a good idea? He's now being cut out socially. He's not getting anything done. Maybe we should replace him.

It's basically a depressing holiday at Butlin, isn't it? Yes, exactly. News of the replacement of Monroe had managed to hit the British press before the letter that informed Monroe of what was going on. So unfortunately, he was told of his firing via newspaper. That's very, very depressing.

So Monroe was understandably outraged. He felt that his friends had betrayed him. This was none other than Jefferson firing him. You can understand why he'd be annoyed. Oh yes, definitely. He's BFF. Now, you could make an argument that Jefferson's hand's being forced by Congress here, but Monroe doesn't see it that way. He's being betrayed.

And also, Madison is the Secretary of State, so the person he's immediately reporting to. And so he's being betrayed by Madison as well. He wrote to Jefferson, and I quote, I was ready to either remain at my post or retire to make way for another, but I was neither permitted to return nor instructed to remain. He's in this horrible halfway, what do I do? Do I leave? I'm still the ambassador.

Do I stay? I don't want to stay. It's not nice. So he was still there when Pinckney arrived, and to Monroe's credit, apparently he treated Pinckney very nice. That's good. And showed him around. And Pinckney had had experience there before. He was a sensible choice.

They'd met before as well, hadn't they? And they'd met recently. Yeah, so at least Munro didn't take it out on Pinckney, which is good. In an attempt to apologise, potentially, Jefferson wrote to Munro stating that he wanted Monroe to become the governor of the new state of Louisiana that he had helped create. Jefferson claimed that it was the second most important office in the US. This, however, just really annoyed Monroe.

Why? Because Monroe, in his mind, is quite important at this point. Yeah. He had been the governor of Virginia, the biggest and richest state. Why? Ooh, I've been Jefferson's underling for a while. Once he's gone, I should be the next president. So Jefferson writing to him saying, you should have the second most important job, is just indicating that he wanted Madison, not Monroe, to get the most important job. So Monroe's just not happy. And also added to this, he was convinced that Jefferson

was trying to put him as far away as possible when he returned. Louisiana at this point wasn't even connected to the rest of the US via states, just territories. So you're on your own pretty much over there. So he's worried that Jefferson is just trying to put him away. And he was also going to be blamed for the lack of progress with the British. He saw that he would become the scapegoat so people would not blame Madison. Blame the ambassador, not the Secretary of State. The Monroe's, therefore, bitter, angry, bought the boat called the Augustus.

Their high five to celebrate the Roman reference was half-hearted. Woo, Rome. They get on their boat and sail back to Virginia. And that's where we're going to leave it today. I wonder if he does become president. I wonder. I wonder if he does.

Okay, so that's the first half. What do you think so far? Interesting person, I think. You can tell he's bright. You can tell he's good at his job. He really wants to be liked and wants to be respected you do get a horrible suspicion though he might be a bit of a bore yes from the earlier things where he's talking about his massive massive investment plan yeah or portfolio then he takes life very seriously he is reminding me more of george

washington than anyone else so far. Yes. Yeah, yeah. He's not naturally someone who does really well at a university and then becomes a lawyer. He's very set in his ways and he's just getting things done and damn it people should respect him.

And he's getting very annoyed that they're not. He has got very annoyed a lot. Yeah, especially now. Yeah. Yeah. Especially now. Yeah. So, um... And it's sort of... Is it a disproportionate anger? You can see why he was annoyed.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, he feels like he's being messed about. That must have felt like a real conversation, that. Oh, it did, didn't it? Yeah. So, yeah, no, I'm looking forward to part two on this one. Yeah. I think he's going to pick up some points.

I mean, he was shot in the chest. No, shoulder. Shoulder. He didn't say that. He said, mean, he was shot in the chest. No, shoulder. Shoulder. He didn't say that. He said, yeah, I was shot in the chest. Shot in the chest. The scar must have just moved 10 inches to the left. They do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's impressive. That's true. That's going on. I mean, he got shot in the artery as well. Yeah. I mean, you know, you get an arterial injury.

You pass out from lack of blood pressure. It's almost within seconds. Yeah, it's amazing he survived. In those days, wow. Yeah, we should probably stop talking about him now because we can talk about him a lot more next time when we rate him. Oh, rate the hell out of him. Oh, yes. Thank you for listening. Don't forget you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and you can download us from Podbean, iTunes, and Stitcher.

Yes, and please do join the Facebook page. Join in. Tell us what you think about the presidents. And thank you very much for listening. Goodbye. Goodbye. Ah, bonjour, monsieur Monroe. Have you enjoyed your coach ride from the coast? I'm not really. They stole all our belongings. Monsieur Monroe, have you enjoyed your court ride from the coast?

I'm not really. They stole all our belongings. And I couldn't help but hear rumors there's been a spot of bother recently. Ah, no, no, no, monsieur. Paris, it's wonderful. We have the beacon to the rest of the world. Oh, yes, I know that. I've always said that to people, but I couldn't help notice a couple of bodies. Don't look at the floor. Look at the roof.

Look at the architecture. It is very important you look up. Never look down in Paris, especially when you hear a squelch. Fine, I am happy to be here. I've always wanted to come. I just want to know, is Paris safe for my family? Ah, Paris

is the most safe place in the world. Even as we have started this conversation a few moments ago, there's only been six or seven deaths. This is a huge improvement, because monsieur, this time this morning, there were at least

50 in the same time. Things are finally looking up for Paris. The sun is shining. But the building is always this red. No, it is a new thing we are trying. It is for you, because you have that wonderful saying, paint the town red. Well, we have. You certainly have, yes. There's a lot of red. It's a lot of red. Eliza was highly educated, could sing and played the piano forte, which is what they called pianos before they removed all the loud keys.

No, piano forte means quite loud. It was a piano joke, Jamie. Oh! Sorry. It's my one prepared joke. I've got it in my notes. I was really proud of myself. Say it again.

I'll say it again. OK. You ready? Yeah. I could play the piano forte, which is what they called a piano, before they moved all the loud keys sigh

I'm proud of myself yeah