American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 5.2 James Monroe

Episode Date: July 7, 2018

  Monroe arrives back home to find that his so-called friends are not being nice enough to him. But he will show them! he will run for president! He will- ah, ok. Maybe not this time. But who knows? Maybe this war will convince people he is the man for the top job…

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, James Monroe, part two. Hello, and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And happy Independence Day. Independence Day. We are recording this on Independence Day. Yes, we definitely are. Yeah, all of the day afterwards, but you'll never be able to prove either way. No.

But you'll be listening to this a little bit after Independence Day. So if you're one of our American listeners, well done. You won. Fine. And if you're not one of our American listeners, you probably don't care. No. It's a day. It's happened.

Hope you had a good one. Let's jump straight in with no delay, shall we? Absolutely. Yes. Smooth. We haven't been recording for five minutes. Right. Monroe had just boarded the Augustus, if you remember. That's a ship.

That's definitely a ship, ready to sail home. He had just been fired from his position as ambassador to Britain despite his success in the Louisiana Purchase. Yeah. He thinks he's doing a damn good job. Damn good job. Unfortunately, that feeling is not what everyone else is feeling. No, yeah. Yeah, so now he's annoyed. He feels betrayed by Thomas Jefferson,

who's now the president, and Madison, who is at moment the Secretary of State. So that should catch you up with the narrative. I'm with it. Okay, So, they're on the ship. Good journey or bad journey? I think boring. No, no. It's not boring, this one. Really bad journey. Pirates! No, not pirates.

But storm after storm battered the boats. Yeah, making their lives completely miserable. Monroe was approaching 50 at this point. Oh, he's quite old then. Oh, yeah, yeah. We covered quite a bit last episode. Elizabeth, his wife, is about 40. And their first daughter is about 21.

And they have their youngest daughter, who's about six. Their son, if you remember, unfortunately died. Yes. Yeah. So that's the family, just to remind you. And they are being knocked about all over the place on this ship, throwing up. It's miserable. Monroe's not got used to a hammock yet.

Ah, so he has to put it up himself as well. Here's the netting. Go! Every time he gets in it, he just spins about five times and then falls to the floor. Really comically. Yeah. And his wife comes up and says, it's fine.

She gets into it and just lays in. Absolutely fine. It's perfectly done. He tries again, falls out. And that would be maybe an amusing scene, but he's at sea for about a month and a half, and it happens daily. Yeah, that's how miserable this was. But eventually they arrive,

very glad to be home. And they were greeted by a small group of friends. No big fanfare here for the returning diplomat. No, just a small group of friends. They head off and have a bit of a dinner party, say hello to some acquaintances, and then Monroe heads off on his own to the capital

to report to Madison and Jefferson. By the time he gets there, he'd heard the news that the president had recently put into law an embargo on trade. Well, that's a really good idea, wasn't it? Yes, this is the really, really good embargo that everyone loved. Yeah, as we've seen, this does not go down well,

and he just meets people on the road grumbling about this embargo. Anyway, he gets to the capital. He's greeted by a very polite Thomas Jefferson and a very polite Madison, but everything apparently was a little bit too polite. Oh, hello. You look absolutely wonderful. That lovely pale shade of green from your journey. Yeah, I mean, these three used to be quite close friends.

Monroe's just feeling a little bit pushed out. He's not quite on their wavelength anymore. Eventually he becomes convinced that Jefferson and Madison wanted nothing more for him to just be out of the way. That's a shame. Yeah, maybe every time he walks into a room they suddenly go very quiet. Look at their watches and clocks and,

ooh, is that the time? Yeah. Occasionally one of them says something that literally makes no sense, but they start laughing, and then Monroe gets that dawning realisation that it's an in-joke that he is not aware of. And so do the elephants.

Ha ha ha! Oh, hello, Monroy. Oh, never mind. You'd have to be there, Monroy. We'd explain, but it just wouldn't be funny. You had to be there. So he didn't stay for long, and he heads home to Virginia.

On the journey, he had time to brood, and he decided by the time he got home that he would run for president oh yeah he didn't need thomas jefferson to support him he could beat madison in a run to the president oh he'd show them yeah yeah and that is absolutely going to happen he's so gonna beat madison yeah he did however hold back somewhat he didn't openly campaign against Madison. So things hadn't got that bad. Okay. Yeah. But that didn't really

matter, because when Madison heard about this, he was not amused. And the two men did not talk to each other for the next two years. Oh, that's a shame. Yeah. It's not hugely clear why this falling out takes place. I guess it's good if on both sides it feels

like betrayal, even though it probably wasn't. It's going to feel that way. It's like your best mate going out with your girlfriend when you've just dumped her. It's that sort of thing. Maybe it's a bit like that sort of thing. Maybe. Well, Monroe, Jefferson and Madison were very close at one point, as I've mentioned. Perhaps

maybe Jefferson and Madison feared that Monroe was siding with the growing number of Republicans who were starting to see Jefferson and Madison as disturbingly Federalist in their actions. So maybe that's why they started to grow apart. They're just fearing that Monroe's going to betray them. So is Monroe the more liberal, for lack of a better word? Well what is interesting is that Jefferson and Madison were both very staunchly Republican, but as happened with pretty much all presidents at this time who hated the Federalist Party, as soon as they got to power, they kind of realised

that those Federalists had a point. And they all start acting a little bit federalist yeah and this is why the republican party's starting to split a bit right because the grassroots haven't changed but those in charge yeah they're starting to change their views slightly munro's still very much a a republican republican yeah so there is a chance that maybe he's starting to see jefferson and madison's actions as a bit Federalist. Yeah. They keep doing things like supporting the idea of gaining huge tracts of land and supporting national banks. What?

Yeah, exactly, which is not the Republican spirit. So maybe that's one reason why their relationship was drifting apart. But maybe it's simply the five years that they've just had apart caused a natural drift in the relationship. And Monroe was just being a little bit childish when he came back, just expecting everything to be instantly like normal. It's always a bit weird if you've not seen anyone for years. Yeah, it's so when you head off to university and you stay there for like a year and you head back home and you meet your old school friends again after like eight months. And they've changed a little bit and you've changed a little bit and it's all really weird yeah you've got that std and there's new tattoos

on your neck and that record oh yeah yeah they've joined the missionary and it's just just a bit awkward so maybe it was a bit like that well jefferson seemed to sense a certain coldness between madison and monroe and decided to try and mend the bridges. He sent a letter to Munro explaining that, and I quote, I never omitted to justify your failure to attain our wish as one that was probably unattainable. Ooh, so saying it was an impossible task anyway. Yeah, but he could have worded that slightly better. Yeah, it's quite cold.

Don't be upset. Every time I talked about your failure to people, I said that it probably couldn't have been done anyway. Maybe. Well, maybe Pinkney could have done it better, but... Yeah. But for you, it would have been impossible, Munro. Let's just say it like that.

It's like cards on the table. Yeah. Well, this was Jefferson trying to mend the bridges. Monroe, although still annoyed, did take the olive branch, however. Although he did write back to Jefferson to gripe about the way he had been dismissed. And I quote again, I thought I should have been the first to hear of it in a private letter from yourself or Mr. Madison. But I had to gather intelligence from the newspapers, the correspondence of others,

the hints of British officers. So he's there. It's not only reading about it in the newspapers. There's British officers saying things, whispering in corridors about his replacement before he's even heard about it. You can see why he'd be annoyed. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And this isn't just anyone whispering about him. This is British officers. Yeah. And if isn't just anyone whispering about him. This is British officers. Yeah. And if anyone knows how to gossip behind someone's back. Oh, it's the British. Oh, yes. Just the odd cough and that. Have you heard? I say.

Didn't have watercolours back then. No. No. The trough. Yes, that's what they used. Pit trough. Yeah. I got some spiffing of mules, Reginald. Quite the scandal. He's saying as he's using a ladle to pick up some water from the trough. That definitely is what used to happen.

Drilling into his mouth. Yes. I quite frankly think it's disgusting. Never catch us treating our ambassadors that way. Pass the ladle, good chap. Anyway. A couple of annoyed letters go between Jefferson and Monroe, and they seem to patch things up.

Monroe ending one of his letters, I am perfectly satisfied that you never meant to injure me. So there you go. Things are looking better between them. But that's with Jefferson. This did not extend to Madison. Ooh, the honcho. Oh yes, they still put his name forward for the election. He was going to run against

his friend. However, his pledge to not campaign did not do him any favours and Monroe secured only a quarter of the votes of Madison in his home state. Realising that continuing was futile, he withdrew from the race. Oh, that's going to really annoy him, isn't it? Yeah, you

could just tell he's not a happy guy at this point. You get the sense from Monroe, but he spent a lot of his time seething. These are the dark times. Yes. You'll do it, Monroe. You'll do it. So, probably feeling angry still, he turned his attention to his financial affairs instead. He's still in trouble, and he needs to make some money. He could not face going back to being a lawyer again. No, he didn't like that, did he? No, he did not. So instead, he focused on getting his plantation up and running properly.

Slaves! Yeah, well, if you're going to be a slave owner, you might as well make some money. That's what he thought. So, he took out a loan of $10,000 and stopped producing tobacco. Stopped? Yes. He thought, quite sensibly, that tobacco ruins your land.

It really does. It rips all the nutrients out of the soil. You cannot grow tobacco sustainably for very long. It's like with roses. You can only grow a rose in a place once. You shouldn't plant a new rose. Oh, can you not? You need to move them around.

It takes the nutrients from the soil. You need to re-fertilise. Then you can put your roses back in. Yeah, exactly. So it's a bit like that. I love the way you didn't check if that was right. You're just assuming that that's correct. I have no idea.

My fingers are incredibly not green. Mine either. No. I hate gardening. The worst thing in the world. Yeah. But I'm going to just assume you know what you're talking about definitely roses i say with a lot of confidence you did i was impressed yeah so like roses you

can't grow tobacco in the same place for very long um so he was being sensible he wanted to be sustainable so he's going to make his money with more reliable grain production everyone needs to eat exactly grain's not going to go out of fashion anytime soon. And also, what's the most important thing you can make with grain? Bread? Whiskey. Oh, yes! Exactly.

Good man. Yeah, exactly. That's a plus two points there for you. Yes. Now, using some tricks that he'd learnt in France, he used plaster of Paris to line the fields. Ah. Yeah.

What does that mean? I did actually look this up. You would ask that. I didn't have a clue. It's literally just putting some lime on the fields. It just gives the soil more nutrients. It helps things to grow. Is it a kind of nitrogen?

Yes, yes. It's all about the nitrogen. I guess they would have known it back then. I know there was a German scientist that discovered about nitrogen going into the soil. Was it? I think he was a Nazi, he was a bit of a bad, bad man. But he changed the way modern farming is because he knew you nitrate your soil. How do I know all these facts?

Like gardening and farming. You are factoid central today. I'm impressed. That's two in like five minutes. Wow. Yeah, I'm impressed. Right. I'm scared. So, two in like five minutes. Wow. Yeah, I'm impressed. Right. I'm scared.

Sorry. He limed his fields with plaster of Paris. This was apparently sneered at by his neighbours. Ha! Fool! Because there he is, just throwing this white powder on his fields. What a waste of plaster of Paris. Exactly.

Everyone else is making these wonderful busts of themselves. Or the little rubber moulds you pour into. Yeah. When I was a kid. Yeah, just really bad ashtrays. Yeah. Yeah. They're having a whale of a time with their plaster of Paris.

But no, Munro's using it on his fields. Oh, do you think his neighbours are really annoyed? He's like, I bought that for a Christmas present. Throw it in the field. Well, apparently they stopped talking behind his back when Munro's yield increased substantially the next year. Boom. So this worked.

As well as a bit of field rotation. Yeah, got to keep rotating your fields. Yeah, exactly. Put on big wheels, spin them around. Yeah. Entire field. I'm not sure why that is. I think it's something to do with the direction of the sun.

Always make sure that each corner of the field faces north twice a day. Yes. It must be something to do with that. You'd have to train your cattle well as well to, like, pull it and... Yeah. So, Monroe would spend the day supervising his fields and his slaves, and then in the evenings,

he'd listen to his wife and his children create music. Oh. He also started growing grapes due to the love of wine that he and Elizabeth had developed whilst in France. Oh, good man. Yeah. He's getting loads of points now.

Yes, he is. Although I can only imagine their disappointment when they first taste the wine that they create, expecting it to taste like French wine. Yeah. But we grew the grapes for at least a week. We put it in the bottle for a day. What's wrong? How hard can this be?

So another source of income at this time was going to be the selling of Uncle Joe's farm. Remember Uncle Joe died? Because Monroe kept asking for money, didn't he? Yes. He can't do that anymore. But from his grave, Uncle Joe is still providing financial support. And Joe's still tutting. He's got a farm to sell.

And Monroe's kind of relying on this sale. This will be an important injection of funds for him. However, it turned out that trying to sell a farm during Jefferson's embargo was not easy because no one had enough money to afford it and Monroe was forced to keep it. Oh, dear. Thanks, Jefferson. Again, you spite me, you beast.

Over the summer of 1808, they had many guests coming round their house. However, the most prominent was a man named Hay who had gained fame recently by prosecuting Aaron Burr for treason. Yeah. So all that's happened. Hay had lost, Burr had gone free, but by that point he'd gained the fame that he wanted.

He had been a huge supporter for the idea of Monroe becoming president and had become very close to James. Oh. So he comes round, and when he's there, his eye is caught. On the side of the door? No. Ow! No, in a more...

He's his daughter? Yes, more metaphorical. His six-year-old daughter? No, the 21-year-old daughter. Yes. He came very close with Eliza, and the two were engaged, and then married. Oh, isn't that lovely? Yeah.

21-year-old daughter. Want to hazard a guess at Hayes' age? Oh, it's going to be. Oh, isn't that lovely? Yeah. 21-year-old daughter. Want to hazard a guess at Hay's age? Oh, it's going to be ridiculously old, isn't it? 50s, probably more? No, no, actually it's not that bad. All right, 30s? No, 43. Oh.

Yeah. Not as bad as we've seen in Roman times. Oh, no. No. But he is essentially double her age. Old enough to be her dad. Oh, very much so. But apparently the two were very much in love.

So if they're both happy, then who are we to judge? Well, we shouldn't. If it was the other sister, then we'd judge. Oh, definitely would. Oh, yes. But this one's fine. Joy was had all round and soon a grandchild was on the way. By this time, all the elections had happened and Madison had become president.

Jefferson had moved back home to Monticello, which was really not far from Monroe. So they're neighbours now. The two soon renewed their friendship in full, and perhaps due to this, when Madison was looking for a competent secretary of state, he started sending some feelers through some friends. Monroe was still very sore and refused to see Madison when he'd come down to Monticello to see Jefferson. Yeah. And he told his new son-in-law, hey,

that Madison was so disappointing as president, he was thinking of getting back into politics. Oh my goodness. Yes. Madison, thinking that he could thaw this relationship with Monroe, he could paper over these cracks, decided to offer the governorship of Louisiana to Monroe. Now, if you remember correctly, Monroe's already been

offered this and was highly insulted by it. Yeah. Because he saw that as just admission that Jefferson would not support Monroe becoming president and wanted him out of the way. Yeah. So Monroe again just saw this as Madison trying to get him out of the way. But Louisiana's really nice.

Oh yeah. A swinging place really nice. Oh, yeah. Swinging place to be. Yeah, it is nice, but that's not how Monroe saw it. Again, he's... You do get the sense he's quite annoyed a lot, don't you? Yeah. He's an angry man. Massive, massive chip on his little shoulder. Quite often when he's drinking tea,

he just crushes the cup in his hand and he has to get a new one. That kind of... The maids come in, just soothe the l the cup in his hand and he has to get a new one. That kind of, yeah. The maids come in just like soothe the lacerations in his palm. Yeah, no emotion on his face, just yeah, bottled up. That's what it is. Anyway, Monroe decided that instead of becoming the governor of Louisiana, he would run for the Virginia House of Delegates. By this time, rumours were spreading that he was about to form an anti-Madison movement within the Republican Party. Monroe downplayed this

and was soon elected. Now maybe it's Madison thinking that he should keep his potential enemies close. Maybe it was Jefferson working in the background. But soon, Monroe was invited to Washington. Come to Washington, came the letter. We need to resolve some financial disputes after your services in Europe. Oh, okay.

Oh, he's trying to bribe him. Pretty much, yeah. Monroe was treated like a hero when he arrived, which is what he felt he was. And when he finally left the capital, not long afterwards, he felt far more positive towards his old friend. Of course he did. So Madison just put on a big meal for him. Everyone clapped over it.

Yeah. Like North Korea style when he walks in. He's just saying to the room before Monroe arrives, look, guys, just give him a big round of applause when he walks in. I think that's all he wants. And especially you at the back. No, you will clap. No, put that banner down. No, he's not an idiot. Down. We want him to like us again. So it all worked. Things are looking a bit better. Soon after, Monroe was given the governorship of Virginia yet again. The fourth time he's been the

governor of Virginia. And then Madison wrote to him. And because things had thawed a little bit, he opened the letter. Madison was still looking for a decent secretary of state. Would Monroe be interested? Monroe was cautious. He wasn't going to jump into this. He replied that his political views

and opinions on foreign affairs with Europe were very well known to everyone. If Madison was willing for him to have these opinions whilst working for Madison, Monroe would accept. Interesting. I quote, If you are deposed to accept my services under these circumstances, I shall be ready to render them.

As long as I can have my own opinions, of course I'll work for you. Fair enough. Yeah, that seems fair enough. There was one other stipulation, however. He insisted that Madison would have to publicly announce that he needed Monroe to be his Secretary of State more than Virginia needed Monroe

as Governor. Because he had only just become the Governor and he was worried it would look bad if he stepped down immediately. If you've got the President saying, but I need him to help me, it just looks better for Moreau, doesn't it? To be honest, now Moreau's just like an ego stroker.

He just wants his... He is coming across a little bit like that, isn't he? Maybe we're being harsh to him there, but yeah, that's the impression I was getting when reading it. Anyway, Madison wrote back saying, yep, that's no problem, of course I'll do that. And by the way, no one in Washington thinks that your failings as a diplomat in Britain were your fault. I'm just making that really clear. All those failings, capital letter,

underlined. All these people talking about it in Washington. We don't think it's your fault. Honest. Even Mavis who cleans the toilet. So the Munros set off and then arrive in the toilet. So, the Munros set off and then arrive in the Washington that we saw last time. This is the Washington with no real streets, clumps of buildings. Apparently snakes were slithering between the shacks that had been hastily erected. No, they're lawyers.

Oh, sorry. I will represent you. So, the I was set up And James set about his work He was soon getting on with Madison As if the two had never fallen out Relationships fully repaired here

I quote The conduct of the president is perfectly friendly And corresponding with our ancient relations Which I am happy to have restored There you go Busy mates again Yay Everything's good.

One of his first jobs was to meet with a French diplomat. It looked like the war with Britain that had been bubbling on in the background for quite some while was actually going to happen, and the French were not going to lift a finger to help out. Oh dear. The French ambassador walked into Monroe's office with a bit of a swagger, ready to be a little bit patronizing to this new world politician who everyone knew loved the French. It's Monroe. He loves us. I know he loves us. We cannot do anything for you, unfortunately. However, by this point, Monroe was

very angry at the country that he loved. He was almost shouting at his guest, I'll quote here, your government abandons us to its enemies and ours. It was not the reaction that the French ambassador thought he was going to get. Monroe also went on to announce that the US was no longer an infant and was determined to make itself respected. It's just as well, really, because Monroe had been in the post for only a month when the opening skirmishes that led to the War of 1812 began.

A British frigate had boarded a US vessel and impressed the captain. In retaliation, a US frigate spotted a British ship, thinking that it was the British frigate. Yeah. So, attacked, killing nine people. Oh. Yeah. Turned out it wasn't that ship, though. So, attacked. Killing nine people. Oh.

Yeah. Turned out it wasn't that ship, though. Oh, dear. It just happened to be another ship. So that was a shame. Like, Captain, stop punching the man! It's not the same ship!

Ah, well. They are British, aren't they? Yes? Well, that will do them. Yeah. An outraged British ambassador arrived at Munro's office, demanding to know what the hell they were playing at. Yeah. Yeah.

Monroe responded that the US ships had the right to recover impressed seamen, just as the British did. Yeah. You've been doing this for years, so now we're doing it. Not nice, is it? Yeah. How do you like it, eh? How would you like them apples, he said. Yeah, that's a direct quote there.

Monroe went on to point out that the British government also were yet to explain several unprovoked attacks on US vessels recently. So that meeting didn't go well and tensions rose. But then the government broke for summer. Sorry, guys, it's on holiday. I know we're all about to go to war but time out for a bit We'll head to the beach The swimming boards out

Swimming boards? That's what they're called Madison and Monroe kept in touch when they were both in Virginia They visited each other quite often and one day when Monroe was riding to meet Madison, he rode into a tree limb and fell to the ground.

Oh dear. In, I'd like to think, one of those comic, the camera's keeping pace with the horse and the rider, and then the tree branch just swings in, and then it's just the horse galloping. And the guy's still there on the tree branch, so he's Slowly falling down, crumpling to the floor.

So that happened. Monroe had to spend several weeks recovering from this. I'm not surprised. He was in pain for a long time. He had a massive grudge against that horse as well. And the tree. Oh yeah. Had the tree taken down. So that's what he did on his holidays.

They all come back. They're ladling out their water from the trough. Good holiday, Munro. No. In the first world, true. So back in the capital, the growing Warhawk faction started to inspire others that war with Britain really was the only way forward. It's time we got on with this thing.

Munro was fully convinced. And I quote, War, dreadful as the alternative is, could not do us any more injury than the present state of things. Oh dear. As we saw in Madison's episode, the president went to Congress and war was declared with a cry of,

On to Canada! Which kind of gives the game away of what they really wanted out of this. The mood in the capital was jubilant for a while afterwards, some declaring this the second war of independence. However, as we have seen, the nation simply was not ready to go to war. What was thought to be an easy walk into Canada proved to be far harder. British Canadian troops not only repelled the invasion, but allied with the local Native American tribes,

they pushed the Americans back into the US and then claimed US land themselves. That was a bit of a fail. Oh yes, it was. Monroe is getting itchy feet at this point. I bet it's the softening he uses in his socks. I should go non-bio. Yes, he should have done. Easy fix, though.

Yeah, it was. What was less of an easy fix was the fact that he wanted to be on the front line of fighting. He went to his president and asked to lead some troops. Did the president just go, but you've never led an army in your life. Remember, he was a soldier in his earlier life. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he even got shot in a war. Oh, yes, his shoulder.

Yeah, exactly. So, no, he does know what he's doing. Oh yeah. Yeah, he even got shot in a war. Oh yes, his shoulder. Yeah, exactly. So now he does know what he's doing. Alright. That was, well, his argument to Madison, I'd like to think. I got shot. That means I'm a soldier, dammit. Yeah. However, Madison calmly pointed out that this

really wasn't the job of a Secretary of State. There's definitely a list of things for you to do, and going into battle is not one of them. So Monroe reluctantly packed away his uniform. He's not going anywhere. He was frustrated, understanding that the one hope of the war was to gain as much land as possible from the British

while they were still tied up in Europe. Yeah. He wrote that if a British agent came to talk peace with him now, he would have to turn the man away. He imagined the response that he would have to give, and wrote, I will not treat with you now. Wait until you have a better opinion of us. When our

troops generals shall occupy the best parts of your Canada, then I will be deposed to listen. Ooh. Yeah. Tough hypothetical writing there. Oh, yeah. Yes. But obviously, he never gets to write that.

No. Because they can't get him to Canada. It became increasingly clear to all that this simply wasn't going to happen. Despite some naval victories that were boosting morale, the US was struggling. They've been blockaded by this point by sea and unable to make inroads to Canada.

And then it became clear that Napoleon was not doing well. Not at all. And Britain would soon be able to ferry far more troops and ships over to the New World. Oh dear. Less than three months after the first shots were fired, Monroe was forced to send instructions to their ambassador in London to approach the British about peace.

Slightly embarrassing. That's interesting. Yes. However, the British simply replied, Pish posh. You started this. You'll have peace when we say you can have peace. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

How's independence now? Soon afterwards, the war secretary resigned. Things were not going well and he was taking the heat. Hell no, I'm out of here. Madison, looking for someone in his cabinet with actual war experience, remembered Monroe showing him his scars. You didn't need to take off your whole shirt, Monroe. And turned to Monroe.

Monroe was more than willing to take the role. Yes, let me at them. I've lived this. Oh, yeah. I go to sleep with a gun under my pillow and a picture of the king just so I can wake up and shoot him in the face every morning. Cost me an arm and leg in frames and glass, but it's worth it. Yes.

So he was more than willing to do it. But they weren't counting on the opinion of Congress. Because many people saw this as a step too far. In particular, the Federalists. They claimed that for too long the country had been run by a Virginian dynasty. And by appointing Monroe Secretary of War and state, he was clearly being lined up as a successor. One Federalist Senator declared that

they would go down in history as James the First and James the Second. That's true, they have. Yeah, they have. That's how we still refer to them. So, bowing to political pressure, Monroe only became acting War Secretary until someone else could take the job. Yeah, it's interesting because

if all the presidents are Virginian, you sort of get it because they've got more money through their farming and their economy's probably stronger with all the tobacco and drugs and stuff. Yeah. So you can see why they got to that place of power but it's not representative of the nation as a whole. Yeah, exactly. There's

growing resentment of this Virginian clique who have essentially taken over government with the exception of John Adams. Yeah, so that's bubbling away in the background. Now eventually a man named Armstrong was put in place as War Secretary. We mentioned

him in Madison's episode. He was the one who was hugely unhelpful and would say things like Yep, we're screwed. Did you know, sir, there's a war on? Yes, yes I do know. Yes, and it's your job to be putting it together. Now, we talked about how Armstrong annoyed Madison in his episode,

but Armstrong and Monroe really didn't get on. It did not help that Armstrong was Livingston's brother-in-law. Now, Livingston was last episode. Do you remember when Monroe went to France to deal with the Louisiana Purchase? Yeah. Livingston was the American diplomat who was already there. Yeah, yeah. Who had put all the groundwork in and

Munro swept him like a Pompey and just claimed all the credit. Yeah. So, Armstrong, being Livingston's brother-in-law, did not like Munro and the feeling was mutual. The two disagreed on where the most vulnerable places were and where the troops needed to be sent. In particular, Monroe thought that Washington was under threat. Armstrong was not convinced, stating that Canada was the area that needed to be focused on.

Yep, nothing's going to happen to Washington. No, not at all. Don't worry about it. So much was Armstrong convinced that Canada was where the action was going to be, he decided he would personally lead the troops there himself Monroe was outraged and wrote to the president stating that this was unconstitutional just glossing over the fact that he had already asked to do that himself but he was turned down and now he knows it's unconstitutional

yes exactly he's learned it's not fair to quote all children. Yeah. Yeah. However, Monroe was then distracted by a letter from John Adams' son, John Quincy Adams, who was in Russia at the time. The Russians were happy to negotiate a peace, apparently. Russia wanted to see trading with the US open again.

Yay. So they wanted peace quickly. This, however, went nowhere because the British simply refused. We're not getting involved with that. The war's going fine for us. However, as we've seen, the British were also not interested in prolonging the war. If they could just stamp on the US enough to get them to stop fighting, the British were willing to let the whole thing just slide. No need to go and attempt to retake land, overthrow governments, et cetera, and retribution. Let's just try and get back to how things were, trading and making money.

It was fine before. Let's go back to that. That's interesting. That's not how you sort of imagine colonial Britain at the time. You imagine them like, we're best. We're going to ruin you. It was retribution. But I guess in a logical way, that wouldn't make sense for them.

Because they're so big because of the money and because of the economy that they're built up over time. And they want to need to maintain that. At this point Britain is more than happy to economically dominate countries. Yeah. Even if they're not physically running them themselves. So they just want to go back to training. Also, the likes of the Duke of Wellington himself was making points such as fighting could go on forever in such an underdeveloped country.

There's huge swathes of just land doing nothing over there. You could be squabbling over there indefinitely. It's not like fighting in Europe. This could go on forever and ever. All it's going to do is drain out money fighting this war. So let's just wrap things up, shall we? So in November 1814, the British approached Monroe's office and suggested peace talks in Belgium.

While that's going on, shall we stop killing each other? Someone asked. Just a really nice person in the background. I want to go home and see my wife. So you got a name? Samuel. Sensible Samuel. Yeah.

Yeah, he's there. He was like, should we have a ceasefire whilst these peace talks go on? They all tell Samuel to shut up. Yeah, go away. We'll keep killing each other until something's signed, damn it. Yes. And even then it'll take months for the message to spread, so more death. Yeah.

As much as the British just wanted to return to the status quo, they didn't see the harm in a little symbolic burning of the US Capitol whilst peace talks were going on. Meanwhile, back in the US, Monroe and Armstrong were still arguing on how likely an attack on the Capitol was. So it's burning out the window.

It'll be fine. After the attack, Monroe wrote, An infatuation seemed to take possession of the General Armstrong relative to the danger of this place. He never could be made to believe that there was any danger. When the enemy were within ten miles by direct route and marching against it, he still treated the idea with contempt. P.S. I told you so.

Yeah, Monroe was convinced Washington was in danger. He sent his family away from the city. He commandeered a small fleet of flower boats just to transport all the documents of the State Department. I was thinking F-L-O-W-E-R not F-L-O-U-R. Oh, you see, I read F-L-O-U-R

flower, but I like your image better. So let's go with that. Lovely potpourri. You there! You with the flowers and the boat. We need your boat for all these documents. Throw your flowers overboard. No! Go on, Samuel, throw them in.

Poor sensible Samuel. Yeah, there's Samuel just pointing out that there's huge ships just down the river completely empty. Yeah they're ironed, they're armed. Yeah we could use those for transport. No no okay fine we'll throw the flowers away. Yeah so the flower boats were commandeered, all the state department papers on the ships and they were away safely. Well done, Monroe, there. They also, however, just in case you think Monroe's just doing this for the good of his country,

he also made sure that they took his book collection and all the furniture that he and Elizabeth had got on the cheap in Paris. It's all that blood-stained furniture that they picked up. It's like, why are we commandeering the flower boats? Oh, For the documents. It's one briefcase, sir.

You can probably carry it. No, we need a ship. Oh, and as we've got a ship... We might as well put it to good use. Yes, the red table and the red chest of drawers. And the splattered sideboard. Yes, load up those. There's a good chap.

Careful, it's an antique. So, once the flower boats were loaded, he wrote to his son-in-law to tell his family that he would stay and defend the city rather than remain an idle onlooker. By this point, rumours of the British landing nearby were swirling. Appalled by the way Armstrong was conducting things,

Monroe picked up a sword and a rifle, mounted a horse, and rounded up around 30 men to go and see for himself what was going on. That's quite ballsy. This is full-on action mode, Monroe. This is quite ballsy. This is dramatic music in the background.

Oh, yeah. This is sword aloft on top of a horse as it does that thing where it's on two legs that has a name, but I can't remember it. Going up on two legs. Going up on two legs. Rearing. Rearing up.

Yeah. On its hinds. He's there, saw the loft. On me, men! On me! And they charge out. Once more into the bridge, dear friends! Be original!

And obviously, because this is dramatic, what's the weather like? Oh, lightning, thunderstorm. Oh, yes. Full-on storm, yes. Oh, wow. Yeah, full-on storm. They ride into the storm through the night. Is this where Munro has slightly long, floppy hair?

It's raining. He's got a cut on his cheek because he caught it on the sideboard. He's just hoovering it onto the flower boat. Yeah. But it's a cut on his cheek. Yeah. A little spider blood coming down. Aragorn style.

Yeah, yeah. He looks like Viggo Mortensen at this point. Definitely. So into the night they go. Soon enough, they find the enemy. From a vantage point, Monroe could see what was estimated to be around 5,000 troops heading for the capital. He quickly writes a message to the president advising that the Virginian militia be called up. Now, as we saw last time, Armstrong was being less than helpful,

and Madison took command of the army directly, placing Monroe as his second. Fair enough. Monroe then starts to give orders to the Maryland militia, who were there, and around 7,000 strong, so they've got the numbers. However, the Maryland militia were completely and utterly untrained. Some of them were as young as 14, trying to hold the British at Blandenburg. Remember, this is where Madison almost rode into the British troops. Yeah, they're trying to hold them back. Monroe and other generals are attempting to form the troops

as best as they can to create a solid line of defence. But it soon dawned on Monroe, like it had on Washington and Jefferson and Madison, that although the ideals of a militia rising up out of the ground to defend their homeland, it sounds glorious and it sounds romantic on paper, but in practice, it's not good. No.

No. When you're screaming, no, I said left. No, no, left. No, your other left. Right, hold your hand in front of your face and make an L shape with your index finger and your thumb. When it says L, that's your left. That's your left.

Go in that direction. Yeah, so why are you looking over my shoulder? Oh, because the British are here. Great. Right, okay. Right, well, pick up your guns. Oh, that's a stick. That's a puppy. I don't care if it barks. It's not a bang. Yeah, it wasn't going well. It really wasn't. Especially when you looked over at the British forces

who were marching in unison. Or fierce looks on their faces. You realise that, yes, a standing army could be used to oppress the people but they're also damn useful at oppressing the enemy. Yeah. Yeah, so. Monroe's having some internal monologue at this point, I imagine. Maybe we shouldn't

have done that damn Second Amendment. Now the defence, if it can be called that, some of the men were in tears, apparently. I don't want to go. Yeah. I don't want to be part of Operation Human Shield. Well, it collapsed immediately.

It did not help morale. The British were using rockets. What? Yeah, they were actually using rockets. Was this the start of NASA? Yes, it was. The British had first started using rockets against Napoleon in 1805, apparently. No, I remember this.

Oh, yeah? It's in a Mythbusters episode. They do... There was a myth about a two-stage rocket that they used during... I think... Oh, and I think it might have been during the... Maybe not the Revolution.

It might have been during the... Yeah, the Civil War. But they used very... They did use very, very basic rockets. It was basically a metal canister with a part inside that released the fuel. Yeah. Because they would have used solid fuel rather than liquid fuel because it would have been too hard to make

because it was before they discovered liquid oxygen or knew how to make it. Yeah. But yeah, they had it. Well, yeah, I mean, rockets were first used in China about five, six hundred years previously. Fireworks, essentially. And then people started realising you could weaponise those things. Once they'd made their way to Europe,

the British had added to the design, so they were essentially turned into incendiary bombs that could cover 3,000 yards. They weren't hugely effective, admittedly, but the sight and sound of them were really good at demoralising the enemy. When the enemy is a bunch of 14-year-old boys in tears,

it was really, really easy to scare them with these rockets. There's a few soldiers from Monterey. Boo! Yeah. Just wearing clown make-up. That's all they had to do. Yeah, it wasn't tricky. We all float down here.

Madison Monroe and the others fled back to the capital. As most of the officials tried to evacuate, Monroe attempted to find General Winder and restore some semblance of control. Eventually, the men were rounded up enough that they were able to be marched off to Baltimore to fight enough a day. Nice.

It was eight in the evening before Monroe abandoned the city, which is roughly the same time as the first British troops were entering. So he stayed till the last. As we saw last time, the official portions of the city were burnt down. In particular, the presidential mansion and the House of Representatives. However, almost all personal property was left completely untouched on the orders of cockburn would it be coburn yes but it's not is it no it's not it's really not well um coburn cockburn did not want to alienate the american public there are still a lot of americans who sympathize with britain and they're still

trying to work out a peace deal aren't they? Yeah, exactly. So he didn't want to completely destroy the city this was a case of get in destroy the presidential mansion the House of Representatives big symbol, then leave. When Madison and Monroe re-entered the city after the British had left, many despaired. Many pleaded

with Madison to surrender. Monroe was outraged by this and loudly announced, if any deputation moves towards the enemy, it will be repelled by the bayonet. Ooh. Who's prepared to kill people if they were going to go and talk surrender.

Madison made Monroe the acting war secretary. Got rid of Armstrong. He was useless. Monroe got up on his horse and declared that all of not too cowardly to do so should start rebuilding the defences of the city. These kind of outbursts went down well with the crowd.

And although there was growing discontent with the President, Monroe was doing really rather well out of this. His slightly angry outbursts were working for him in this situation. He was coming across pretty good. Is he going to be a bit like Churchill in the sense that he'll be fantastic in times of war,

but when it's more of a peaceful time, it's just kind of, eh, I don't really need you. You do get a slight impression of that with him, yeah. As we saw last time, the war soon drew to a close, with a couple of victories for the US near the end, enough to make the loss seem like a victory in the eyes of many. America had achieved next to nothing from the war, however, there was one lasting impact. Something I only hinted at last time.

Go on. Up in the northwest, William Henry Harrison. I want to put a box around his name. Ooh. Yes. He had defeated the combined Indian nations and as a result he had managed

to claim almost all of their land east of the Mississippi. Wow. This opened up a huge area of land

which the land hungry citizens of the US started spilling into at an increased rate. Tens of thousands

poured into the area. Equally the Native Americans were driven out. I thought I'd mention that now because it has a bit of an impact later but just know that general movement is starting to happen. I imagine there's no hard feelings from it. That'll be fine. I'm sure that'll be fine. Cool. Yeah. Last we hear of those then. Yeah. So Monroe himself was able to finally relax after the war. He managed to meet up with his friends. He also read his friend's biography on Washington. Do you remember John Marshall? Yeah. Yeah, he'd written a biography on Washington,

which Monroe read and was very impressed with it. And you start seeing him trying to emulate Washington quite a bit after this. This biography obviously made an impression on him. Now it was unsurprising to all that when the elections approached that Monroe put his name forward. He was very popular by this point. The Federalists were just dead as a political party, killed off by a war in which many suspected they had aided the enemy. But equally, there was a problem seen by many Republicans

that the Virginian dynasty was rising. So there is a slight problem there. Still, Monroe's popularity meant that he was the only sensible Republican choice. Monroe did not even bother to campaign. It simply went through. Sure enough, he was elected. Huge landslide. President? He is now

president. And so begins the era of good feelings. Yeah, this is what this time period is called by many historians, coined by Fraser in a newspaper at the time. Era of good feelings. Ballpark guess.

How long do you think an era of good feelings should last? Oh, you want at least a decade. At least, wouldn't you? Yeah. Yeah, I was quite surprised. The era of good feelings is essentially his first term. Four years. Yeah, they don't get much of an era i mean you could argue it extends past that but uh yeah we will see anyway why is this the era of good feelings don't know the war was won yes well sort of well the war

ended it ended and um they weren't all dead so there there you go, the war was won. The Federalists were dead. So there's essentially only one party. So political fighting was at its lowest that it had been since Washington first became President. Yeah. So that's nice. Yeah, that's true. A bit of confidence there. Yeah, the migration into the new land was really helping the economy.

Monroe also, obviously wishing to emulate Washington, declared that the US should be truly united and stand together. And I quote here, Discord does not belong in our system. Monroe was determined to wipe out party politics. That'll definitely happen. Yeah, let's get rid of it.

One way he promoted this idea was to appoint people into his cabinet from all over the country. Nice. Yeah, it did not matter if you were North, East, South or West, Republican or Federalist. He would appoint you if you were the right man for the job. Right. White man for the job.

Yeah. And, okay, he didn't appoint any Federalists. No. But that's not because they were Federalists. They just clearly weren't the right men for the job. Yeah, of course. So no more political parties, because we're only going to have the Republican political party.

Yeah. What many saw as an end of party politics could be argued that it was just a one-party system. That's how spinsters happen. You get one party, then you'd be one to break away from it. Well, exactly. The fact that he is appointing people from the same party, and this is somehow seen as from the same party, and this

is somehow seen as him being very inclusive, really gives you an early warning sign that there are problems within that party. Yeah. Yeah. His Secretary of State was none other than John Quincy Adams, son of the former President, back from Europe at this point. For his War Secretary, he asked Henry Clay, a very famous politician who we've not really talked about much, bizarrely. He's not really popped up, but he was a very prominent politician. Henry Clay refused the position, though. Didn't feel like it was right for him at that time. So, Monroe instead turned to the big book of Marvel villains and found the perfect man for the job.

Megatron. No. Deadpool. No. Doctor Octopus. Shall I just tell you? No. Yeah, go on.

Thanos. This is a man named John C. Calhoun. Calhoun. Oh. Calhoun was an elegant-speaking, war-hawking, slave-owner-defending, southern plantation owner. And he honestly looks like he plots schemes in a lair. Can I call him Johnny C? You can if you want, but before you decide what to call him, do you want to see what he looks like?

I do now, yes. Oh, yes. This is John C. Calhoun. Calhoun. Oh, good lord. you decide what to call him do you want to see what he looks like i do now yes oh yes this is john c calhoun calhoun oh good lord look at those eyes we will put this up on our website for listeners benefits but he looks like a villain he just is a villain he looks insane he's got crazy hair he looks like moriarty yes yes he does't he? Do you want to see his coat of arms? Is there a snake on it? Not quite.

That's his coat of arms. Oh, it's black. Yeah, big black spiky crosses. Wow. With a stag that is just blood red. Yeah, big spike. It looks like a holly branch as a cross. Yeah, I mean, this man is...

Wow. He's almost a cartoon character, isn't helly branch is across. Yeah, I mean, this man is... Wow. He's almost a cartoon character, isn't he? He looks amazing. Yeah. We'll get to see a fair amount of him over the next few episodes, so you can form your own opinion on him. Okay. I wouldn't like to sway your opinion this early on,

but let's just say he's possibly the first big name of many characters in US history who is very divisive. Okay. And let's also just say his looks suit him. Anyway, with his cabinet set up, Monroe decided to emulate Washington and start touring the country. Remember how Washington did? Yeah. Monroe's going to tour the north, the south. He's going to make sure everyone is on the same page

he's got more to tour though hasn't he than Washington did well yes, he's also going to have to go off to the west as well so the tour goes really well to begin with the continued idea of good feeling really takes hold everyone's celebrating his arrival he to begin with

wants to go around pretty much on his own with just a couple of people and just turn up at places and see how they are uh but oh you don't do that everywhere he goes he is swamped and formal dinners are put on and he soon realizes that it's just impossible to be another citizen while you're the president so he soon gives up on that idea but also you've got your boss coming to just do a random drop in that's an inspection just an inspection. That's horrible, isn't it? No! No! Hide the evidence. So, I mean, generally, things are going

really well for him. The country generally is more positive than it's ever been before. However, Monroe's first crisis was about to begin. A Native American nation, the Seminole, or the Seminole, I'm not entirely sure how you pronounce that, so I apologise for the fact I'm butchering that.

They lived in Spanish-howed Florida and they were raiding the towns in Georgia. Monroe, through Calhoun, who was inside his volcano at the time, I can only assume, wrote to General Jackson. Remember Jackson's down south? Yeah. Yeah. Leading some troops. So Calhoun writes to Jackson, essentially telling him

to sort out the mess down there. Now, what does that mean? Oh. Yeah. That can mean two things. It can either mean diplomatically sort it out. Yeah. Or it can mean like Emperor Palpatine style wipe them out. Right, I'm just going to show you the picture of the person who sent

this letter again. That's Calhoun and he's saying sort the mess out. What you think that means that means butchering yeah right well jackson figured that he knows how to sort the mess out down there take out florida like like carve it off from the main yeah just gonna hack sort yeah uh just take it over essentially declare war on spain however jackson thinks not really my position to do that you want me to sort it out but that will be the easiest way to do it that's like trying to tighten a screw with a mallet possibly you could hammer it in then that'll be that'll be fine no repercussions there i'm building this house well jackson writes for clarification because he doesn't want to go and do this on his own.

So he writes that. Needlessly ambiguous orders. Yes. What do you mean by sort this out? You know, make sure it's okay. Take care of business. Just see if they have any unfortunate accidents. Take them out for dinner.

So yeah, Jackson writes, just to get a few clearer orders here, because he's aware that this would violate the Constitution. Congress needed to declare war. He couldn't just go in on its own. That's not to say that Jackson's against the idea. Jackson is more than happy to go and take over Florida. He just doesn't want to take the flak himself.

Yeah. So he writes back, and I quote here, Let it be signified to me through any channel that possession of the Floridas would be desirable, and in 60 days it will be accomplished. Well, that's an assertive comment, isn't it? Oh, yeah. So if you give me the go-ahead, I will do it,

and I will do it within two months. Just give me the not, but a definite not. Monroe, realising that he could not reply to this, because if he did, he would be violating the Constitution, does not reply. However, he does ask Calhoun to send a message to Jackson that said, don't directly attack any Spanish troops. Oh dear. But oh no, Jackson did not receive the message.

Oh, that's a shame. So either Jackson did not receive the message, or Calhoun did not send the message. Or it said, do not directly attack the Spanish troops with a do not cross down. Yes, maybe. Obviously with like red crown. Yeah.

Yeah, Jackson goes on the offensive, killing many of the Somali and burning down their homes and hanging their chiefs. He went further and took Florida's Spanish capital. Jackson wrote to his president to say the war was won. Monroe was overjoyed. However, as news of this blatant illegal invasion filtered through the country,

many were not impressed. Now Calhoun actually starts to resent Jackson, thinking Jackson's undermining him. You're being a bit more vicious than I am. Yeah. Jackson, as I'm sure you're aware, is president in two episodes' time. Ooh.

Calhoun's still around then. Oh dear. Yeah. Oh, that's going to be fun. Keep an eye on those two. Anyway, Monroe, who was on another tour by this point, was forced to return to the capital to defend his general. It turned out that although many politicians with their notions of things being constitutionally correct and legal, they might have been unhappy, but the general population, still convincing themselves that they'd won the War of 1812, were more than happy with the idea that their country had got another victory. John Quincy Adams started negotiating with the Spanish,

who, realising that they could do very little, agreed to give Florida to the US if the US stopped claiming that Texas belonged to them. Also, a payment of $5 million helped soothe the deal. So there you go. America has Florida. Nice, for better or worse. Yes. Oh, you've never been to Florida? No, no, no.

I've visited Tampa. Yeah. Humid. Yes. Hottest place I've ever been to. Just the humidity is insane. Yeah. Lovely place, though. Yeah. hottest place I've ever been to just the humidity is insane lovely place though the only shops you get are bars

tattoo shops and cigar shops down the main street yeah they were already there when Jackson told me but that is Florida that and alligators and those boats that hover on swamps that don't hit the concussions the big fans on the back

call the crocodiles down. Yeah, exactly. Make it very hot. Yeah, so the era of good feelings is continuing. Canals were being built, roads were being constructed, business was booming, the economy was doing well. However, there was always the dark cloud on the horizon. And that cloud, obviously, is slavery.

By this time, the possibility of a slave uprising had grown to the point that people wanted something done. Monroe turned back to his earlier ideas. Remember, he had some ideas before, when he was governor of Virginia? Shipping unruly slaves back to Africa and dumping them there. Wonderful, yes.

Yeah. Now, to give some credit to those arranging this, because it's happening now, land was negotiated with the local population in Africa in what would become Liberia, which is between modern-day Sierra Leone and the Ivory Coast. Yeah. Yeah. So he wasn't dumping them anywhere. They bought some land, and they created an area that they could put.

Ah, you're from Ghana. Well, we'll put you in Tunisia. That's where our base is. Now, I'll be honest, that's more than I expected them to do. It's still not great, but at least they did put some forethought into it. Yeah. However, as you can imagine, I mean, this was done with as much tact and organisation as you would expect. And the newly settled African-Americans had nothing in common whatsoever with the local population.

Soon, death and violence followed. However, the capital city of Monrovia... Oh, what? ...eventually grew and is still now the capital of Liberia. Really? Being the second only capital city to be named after an American president, apart from Washington, D.C. Wow.

Factoid for you. That's interesting. Yeah. So, that happened. That's horrible. You could argue it's better than executing them all. It's still not good, though, is it? Instead of us me killing you, you're probably dying on the way back.

It really is a case of if I can't see it, it's no longer a problem. Oh, it is, yeah. Yeah. It's like flushing away a dead fish. Yeah. You're not quite sure it's dead. It's sort of floating. You're telling little Johnny it's dead, but you don't believe it in your heart.

No, because it's all winked at you. And it's really weird because fish don't normally do that. Yeah, exactly. But you've flished it away anyway. Yeah. It comes crawling back in the night no well monroe hoped that uh this deportation of troublesome slaves would just sort out the problem yeah that's the slavery issue sorted besides he had some personal business to attend to because his younger daughter was now old enough to marry.

Oh, the six-year-old? No longer six. Oh, okay. Yeah. She became the first daughter of a sitting president to get married in the White House. Oh. Yeah. Now, the fact that she was marrying her first cousin perhaps put a damper on the day.

Think of the children. Those whispering, perhaps this isn't a good idea. Samuel, maybe, at the back of the children. Those whispering, perhaps this isn't a good idea. Samuel, maybe, at the back of the room. I'm not convinced first cousins should really marry. Be quiet, Samuel. But think of the genetic problems. Shut up. Shut up, Samuel.

Idiot. Putting a dampener on everything. Yeah, so, yeah, they got married. That's nice. There's another fat toy for you. First wedding in the White House. Aw. Cousins.

Yeah. However, despite this lovely personal and public display of affection that was going on, apparently the slavery problem hadn't gone away. Hasn't it? No. Oh, but it seemed foolproof. Yeah. The people of the Missouri Territory had reached the population criteria to apply to become a state. That's nice.

This in itself is not a problem. But Missouri was populated by people who owned slaves. The Northerners were worried that the new senators of Missouri entering the Senate would misbalance the Senate in favour of slave states. At the moment, it's nice and equal. If Missouri joins, you've got more senators who agree with slavery. The northern states don't want that.

One member of the House proposed that all new slaves be banned and all existing slaves' children be freed by the age of 25. Ooh. Yeah. This passed the House but was rejected by the Senate. There's a lot of debate going on about this. Soon enough, there was a huge debate over whether the new states being created

from the Louisiana Purchase should adopt slavery or not, with a very clear north-south divide. Now, when the area of Maine applied to become a state, a compromise was sought after. One slave state and one free state would be able to join at the same time, retaining the balance of the Senate. Wonderful, this works. Also, it was agreed upon

that no state north of the 36-30 parallel line would become a slave state. Yeah? Now, so that's clear for you and again, this will be on the website. Here is the map of what the US looks like at this time. Red are the slave owning states blue are the non-slave owning states or the free states as they're known and then this line that goes across the top of the arkansas territory below the

missouri territory is the compromise line from now on no states above that line can become slave states and all the ones below it can become slave states. Well, looking at the map, I can see no problems there. Considering most are red. Well, yeah, the fact that the Missouri state is clearly above the line. But that became a state before the line was drawn, just. So that's fine. That's an exception, and everyone's happy with that.

But what about Kentucky? They were states before, just new states. New states. Oh, new exception. And everyone's happy with that. But what about Kentucky? They were states before. Just new states. New states. Oh, new states. Can I say? Okay. Yeah.

So there you go. So it was a compromise that did the job at the time. There was deadlock. And this helped things go forward. New states needed to be admitted, obviously. And this kept the two factions happy. Well, happy-ish. However, there was a clear problem here.

This is drawing lines on a map that literally splits the nation. Yeah, that's quite divisive. Cue ominous thunder. We're not that far from the Civil War. About 40 years, 50 years? Yeah, about that. Yeah, so that's coming yay and you can start to see why yeah yeah yeah so it was time for re-election anyway and in an

era with only one party the republicans simply didn't campaign monroe was put through almost unanimously apparently the only man who voted against Monroe only did it so that Washington remains the only unanimously elected president. Oh, that's ridiculous. Yeah. That's deifying a sort of a... Well, yeah, exactly. So Monroe, no problem. Second term. However, it doesn't start brilliantly because everyone's very sick. A flu epidemic swept through the capital.

Many were ill or dying. And to this backdrop of people spluttering and coughing, Monroe was forced to admit to Congress that he had maybe overspent somewhat. Oh, dear. Now, he had told everyone that he would have a $7 million surplus at the end of his first term.

Turned out that he had a five million dollar deficit. Oh yeah. So Congress going right well you owe us 12 million dollars. Well some historians claim that it was actually his treasury secretary deliberately trying to undermine Monroe because he wanted to become the next president. And I'm not sure I believe it, but it's not unbelievable because Monroe was starting to lose control. Right. His biggest achievement, arguably, to this point, certainly how they saw it at the time, was that he had ended the factional party politics that had ruined the country for the last 30 years. Yeah. This is the era of good feeling, no more squabbling.

However, Monroe was soon learning that if you've only got one party, it's far harder to control your cabinet. There were no Federalists to fight against anymore. They'd been defeated. So the cabinets are no longer united. They start to develop an each-man-for-themselves mentality. Every one of them with a big enough ego to want to become the next president. Yeah, look what I could gain.

Yes. That's a shame. Monroe had also announced that he would follow the president of the presidents by only serving two terms. Remember, that's not a law at this point. No. It's just what they do. And he announces that quite early on, so the infighting and backstabbing of the men under him grows and grows.

Still, there's one more thing that Monroe wanted to push through before he quit. Following the revolutions of the United States and France, revolutions were spreading throughout the world, especially in South America. Up until this point, the US had just stayed out of it. It didn't really concern them. However, Monroe figured it was time for the US to stand up for their fellow Americans. It was time to stop the Europeans from interfering in the new world. After all, if Europe stopped messing about in the Americas, just think how powerful the United States could become. Could dominate the world. Now Congress supported the recognition of Colombia and Mexico as independent nations. So yeah, so now Colombia and Mexico

are on the map and you no longer need to put Spain in brackets after. Yeah, that's good. Shortly afterwards, Monroe announced that the Western Hemisphere was now closed to colonisation. So he's saying Europe just couldn't come over and be like, oh, this is our place now.

Yeah. Just going to invade. Europe were no longer allowed to come over and just take over land in the Western Hemisphere. That's now our shop. Well, yeah, I mean, we can still invade each other over here. That's fine. But you guys in Europe, the shop's closed.

Sorry, guys, you've had your fun. It's time to stop. From now on, the US would consider any European power claiming land in the Americas as a threat. This was soon dubbed the Monroe Doctrine, and it sent shockwaves throughout the world. Said everyone.

London was happy enough with the doctrine. Britain had already decided that trading with the New World was far easier than trying to claim any more land, and they already had Canada. So, yeah, fine fine do what you want however other european countries including russia were really not happy they had their eyes on the new world and did not want to be pushed out because yeah at this point like thinking of where europe was i guess russia's the big sort of monarchy going on and trying to dominate as well and they're beginning to find their feet quite a lot yeah they're also looking at north america as well alaska region in fact also large swathes of the of the western coasts of north america and they're trying to

modernize they're trying to catch up yeah exactly so big it's so hard to keep everything modern if you always get those pockets of places that aren't quite caught up so that they're trying desperately to yeah yeah so great yeah So they're trying desperately to integrate. Yeah, and they're not alone. Countries like Austria, who have never really managed to get a handle on the new world, want to maybe expand out there. So there are definitely countries who are not impressed that America are saying, nope, no more.

However, despite Europe's annoyance, it became obvious to all who stopped and actually thought about it long enough that, you know what, the US can actually do this. Colonising the Americas had actually been hard enough when there was next to no resistance. Now there's a relatively well-developed country willing to fight back. Ooh. Yeah, Europe, ground their teeth. But there's not much they can do.

The Monroe Doctrine was a huge political PR win for Monroe. Not only had the US, say, won the War of 1812, then beaten back the Spaniards from Florida, now they were telling all of Europe to beat it. Just beat it, beat it. Yeah, they sang. Yeah, US were truly on the world stage at last. However, despite this win, Monroe's presidency was falling apart due to the fighting within his cabinet. Monroe attempted to emulate Washington. Remember how Washington is classed as having no party? Yeah. Even though he's obviously a Federalist.

He stayed above the fray. Yeah. So Monroe tries to do that, but this only angered members of his cabinet who felt that Monroe owed them for various reasons. You should be getting involved. You should be defending me because I've defended you in the past. Yeah. One day, Monroe's treasury secretary, a man named Crawford, arrived at the presidential mansion asking Monroe to confirm support for a budget decision that had been made.

Monroe had delayed answering for a while, and Crawford had had enough. He wanted a simple answer. It's like, Monroe, get out from under your desk. Fingers out of your ears. Come on. Come on. I need an answer an answer well crawford stormed into the room and said and i quote i wish you would not dilly dally about this any longer but have some mind of your own and decide it so i may not be tormented with your want of a decision isn't dilly dally such an amazing dilly dally is brilliant i love it yeah now there's a witness there who wrote down what happened next. And I quote this witness's statement.

Go on. The president demanded to know if Crawford had come here to treat him with disrespect. Ooh. Mr Crawford raised his cane and said, You infernal scoundrel! Mr Monroe seized the tongs and ordered him to instantly leave the room or he would chastise him.

Mr. Crawford moved towards the door, then turned round and said to him, you misunderstand me and I'm sorry for what I said. Mr. Monroe said, well, sir, if you're sorry, let it pass. You completely misunderstood what I was going to say. When I raised my cane in the air. To smack you in the face. I was calling you a scoundrel.

I meant to say, Cup of tea? It's how they do it in Europe. This is fashion, sir. Yeah. Apparently the two shook hands after this, but Crawford never set foot in the presidential mansion ever again. I guess if he is a trained soldier, he's, you know...

I love how his first reaction was to grab the fire tongs. Yeah. Just a great image of these two old men, one with a stick and one with tongs, just going at each other. What would you more be scared of, the stick or the tongs? I'm guessing the stick had more reach, but the tongs, you could have, like, jabbed forward, grabbed the nose of Crawford and really yanked it. And they could have been hot.

Exactly. Yeah, so, I don't know, my money would be in Munro, but it would have been a good jewel to witness, I think. Samuel trying to edge his way in there. Look, do we need to be doing this? Be quiet, Samuel, we're watching. It's idiot. Yeah. So, it was in this type of atmosphere

that Monroe's presidency comes to an end. Oh. After a visit from the elderly Lafayette, he's still alive. Yeah, he comes over to America for a bit and just comes along. Ah, bonjour, monsieur. He wants to see what America's like. He fought for its freedom. Ah, bonjour.

Yeah. The seats are so much cleaner here. There's no red. So Monroe eventually retires, feeling somewhat bitter about the way his cabinet have acted. He's always bitter at everything. Yeah, this was supposed to be an era of good feeling, after all. They're letting the side down here. Now, in later life, he did get involved in Virginian politics for a bit, but when I say in later life, it wasn't that much later,

because he was dead within six years. Oh. Dying one year after his wife. Oh. Yeah, and there you go. That is the life of Munro. Okay. Let's judge him. Okay. And there you go. That is the life of Munro. Okay. Let's judge him.

Okay. Statesman! Okay, so he presided over the era of good feelings, a name that sounds like it lasted at least a generation. It didn't. It didn't last that long. No, okay. But it sounds good, doesn't it?

Yeah. He thought that he'd done away with party politics, which is good, although all he had really done was preside over a single-party government. A single party that was so internally split, it could not keep itself from bickering constantly. That's not great. But it cannot be denied that for a while, under Monroe's presidency, a lot of people were happy.

There was rapid growth under him, and many in the US finally started to feel like they were a real united country. And recognised as well. Yes. Well, he oversaw the acquisition of Florida, albeit by dubious means. Well, I didn't order that. No, certainly not me, no. Well, it is still debatable how much Monroe knew about Jackson's illegal invasion of Spanish land.

I'm dubious about it. Canals, roads, general transport improved hugely under Monroe. That said, again, though, there was much debate over whether the state or federal government should be dealing with infrastructure. So there was a lot of argument about that.

Monroe actually used his veto once, and only once, and that was to stop a road from being built because he did not think that the federalist government should be doing it. It should be the states. Mississippi, Illinois, Alabama, Maine and Missouri all enter the Union during his presidency, which is nice. All the economic boom that he presided over, however, then hit a bubble, causing the Panic of 1819, which for a whole year everyone just ran around

with their arms above their heads screaming. Yeah, well, to sum it up quickly, more banks were being created than could be regulated. Banks would also produce their own notes with little or nothing at all to back them up with. Yeah. This led to obvious economic problems. Inflation. Yeah. The Missouri Compromise, that's a big one. It's hard to say whether the Missouri Compromise is good or bad,

having this dividing line where you'll have slave states and free states. With hindsight, we can definitely start to see the beginning of the Civil War, but that's not a certainty at this point. For all they knew, this would actually work out quite well. Although saying that, there certainly were some at the time who worried about splitting the nation with a North-South divide. It's the beginning of tribalism. Yeah, definitely. The Monroe Doctrine. This is the big one from Monroe.

I mean, it's a doctrine and it's named after him. That's big. Yeah, this sets the US up as a real world power. Europe had to accept the fact that the US were now capable of defending the American continents. This puts them on the world stage. However, that said, it was actually Britain's idea first. Oh, it was it? Yes.

Well, if you think about it. Stop the other countries from getting more land. Yeah. Britain wants to stop European expansion because they're the strongest in Europe at this moment. So if they can cut that off, they will the strongest so how did that generate did we just send people over saying oh maybe you should consider this exactly yes britain sent over people to america and said why don't you think about telling europe to stop coming over and be good for you yeah the the americans just stared at them whilst tapping their fingers on the table, looking slightly annoyed.

Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it, Britain? Yeah. However, America decided, quite understandably, that it would be far better to declare this on their own instead of a joint declaration with Britain, which was Britain's original idea. They said we could both declare this. America said that by going at it alone,

they would avoid looking like, and I quote, the cock boat in the wake of the British man of war. They didn't want to look like Britain's lapdog, understandably. That said, the reason why Europe realised there was no way they could stop the US defending the Americas is because Britain were going to support the US. And Europe knew that.

If Britain said to the US, no, I don't think so, and the rest of Europe said, no, I don't think so, the US actually wouldn't have been able to hold Europe back. I guess for Britain it's sort of economically viable. It's business. It makes sense for us to do that. Yes, definitely.

It stops our competitors. We can keep good trade going. Yeah, but Britain have now risen to the top of the pack. The constant squabbling in Europe has turned yet again. Britain are now in charge over there, so they want the status quo to remain as long as possible. Fair enough. So, yes, the Monroe Doctrine is a huge thing,

and Americans rightly point to it and say, this is where we really started making an impact. But there is that slight detail that is conveniently forgotten quite often. It's all winning the 1812 war, isn't it? Yeah, we'll give this to Madison and Monroe's governments. They knew how to spin things to make it look good. But that's part of being in charge. Oh, yeah, definitely.

You can't take anything away from that. That is a genuine compliment to their governments. So, yeah, the Monroe Doctrine, you do need to say that it is impressive for the fact that it informs US foreign policy for 100 years. It's not until First World War that you start to see a change in foreign policy. The foreign policy remains, Europe stay out, we will defend the Americas. That's true, because

when you think of the Victorian times in Britain, nothing's ever mentioned about the US, is it? Ever. The first thing I hear about is Woodrow Wilson coming over and being all heroic in World War I. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'd never consider that. Yeah, so it certainly has an impact. So there you go. It's a fair bit for statesmanship yeah, exactly. It's a good point. I'd never consider that. Yeah, so it certainly has an impact, yeah.

So there you go. I mean, it's a fair bit for statesmanship there, but it is also a mixed bag. It is. I think it's more positive than negative. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, we can talk about the dividing line and how that is a future issue,

but let's base it on now. The Monroe Doctrine, from the US perspective, is a really good thing for them. Yes. And yes, you can quibble where the original idea came from, but the outcome is what it is, and that is points in Monroe's column. Absolutely.

The Missouri Compromise, yes, like you say, leads to problems, but right now it fixes a political problem where they are struggling to admit states into the Union, so this is the compromise they've come up with. It's a short-term band-aid plaster to solve a problem. Yeah, so... Material leak. Yeah. He doesn't manage to have good control over his cabinet very well.

But this is obviously people getting more confident, wanting more power, and seeing how almost... I guess people just think how easy it is to get power. Yes. I say easy, and you don't have to be high-born or wealthy. Yeah. It's become a real republic. Yes.

Yes, it has its faults. Of course it will. But it is a genuine republic. Why don't we give him an eight? Because I'm quite impressed. I'm hovering between seven and eight. I'm going to give him a seven. Okay.

Fifteen, not bad. Disgrace, Genghis. Okay, not much here, actually. He perhaps overstepped his brief while being a diplomat in Europe. Remember, he went over to France to begin with and was a bit too cosy with the French and really put a spanner in the works with the negotiating with the British. But is that really disgrace-gate material?

I don't think it really is. I mean, Washington at the time does say there is abundant evidence of him being a mere tool in the hands of the French government, which is damning, really, especially from Washington himself. But I don't think we can really give him much points for that. Many over his political and legal career

accuse him of being mediocre, including the likes of aaron burr and henry clay he he was not seen as being a leader in his field he was seen as being just a bit of an everyman who gets in a bit of a grump quite often i guess that's true his early life yeah absolutely but actually during his presidency he sort of proved that that's maybe not the case yeah no he does seem to turn it around. And again, is that worthy of a disgrace gate point? No, no, no.

I don't think so. Okay, well let's go to the obvious then, shall we? Because it's going to be here for a while. Slaves. Yeah. Yeah, he was an absentee slave owner, really, most of his life. Yes, he owned slaves, but he wasn't anywhere near them. Is that worse?

Is that better? I don't think it really makes a difference. You're still owning the slaves, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. Again, as we've seen with all of them, yes, he said slavery was bad. No, he did not do anything to help. What?

Or did he? He did genuinely think that sending slaves back to Africa would actually help the situation. I think you're right with what you said, it's just covering the problem in sand. Yeah, looking back in retrospect, it sounds quite terrible, because it is quite terrible, but... It's hiding the problem. It's like, they shouldn't waste it, they can't cause a problem.

Yeah, exactly. It's convenience, rather than actual progression in any form of social situation. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't the worst, though. I mean, there were many who were calling for immediate execution of groups of people just to get rid of discontented slaves. So it's great that he didn't support that. But if you're saying that something good about someone is the fact that they weren't advocating mass murder, it's not brilliant, is it? No.

Yeah, the creation of Monrovia was, at the time, considered the more humane approach by many. Although, of course, by many, I, of course, mean by the white people. Yes, most free slaves much preferred to stay in their homeland of the US. They didn't want to go. I was born here, my family are here. And obviously you could always point to the odd isolated case where a freed black person was saying,

yes, I'd rather go back to Africa, but they were the exceptions. Most did not want to. So, yeah, that's not great. He's the same as the others, I would say. He doesn't get the bonus point that Washington did. No. That he freed his slaves after his death. He also is not penalised as much as Jefferson

because he's not writing about how they're genetically inferior. Oh, yeah, that was... Yeah, that was beyond the pale. I'm going to give him a four for that. I'll match that then. Yeah. So, minus eight. Minus eight. We'll take from his final score yes next round silver screen you know i think he's going to get some points

here he served in the war of independence under washington's cousin he was shot he crumples to the floor and standing over him is the general himself who immediately promotes him on the battlefield. What an opening. Shot on the arm. Washington looks over him and goes, promotion? He's like, yes please! Thank you! And then you've got his whole friendship with

Lafayette and actually quite a few other people but this is a film. We condense it so it would just be Lafayette. He could be his French friend. So you've got all of that. He's then tutored by Jefferson himself. He's got Uncle Joe helping him out. He's got his annoying

brothers always losing money for him. Turning up with bottles of whiskey. He was in France during the revolution, seeing the aftermath, literally straight after the reign of terror. He saved, or more, Elizabeth saved Madame Lafayette from jail. Yeah.

Yeah, that was great. Then he returned home and almost had a duel with Hamilton. Remember they have that argument. Yeah. That's good. And then back to France, Louisiana Purchase. He goes to England. He hates England.

Lots of wide shots of London with lots of fog. Yeah, him looking miserable. Then he had a falling out with Jefferson and Madison. Then there's the whole War of 1812. Him falling out with Armstrong. Him charging into the night to find out what's going on. Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah.

It's like Band of Brothers. Yes. It's a ten-part episode. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Silver Screen silver screen i think is fast just becoming would this be an hbo miniseries so yeah you got all that going on then he hit his presidency and you must admit it kind of loses its cinematic edge at this point i don't know he's got the you know the the war with the i call it a war the taking everything with spain that's the drama in that yeah you could get something out of the whole jackson calhoun thing i mean you've got

you could have a close-up of calhoun cackling and then just keep panning out panning out until you're outside the volcano for example and and also the um british people who are saying we've got an idea for you that will solve solve your problems in Europe and make it a trade deal for us. Scandal, you know, a little bit of intrigue there. And then they're debating, should we do it? And then one of them says, damn it, we need to do it on our own. We don't need the British to declare this. Damn you.

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, I suppose you could get a bit out of that. It's pretty good. Yeah. I would say this is the best overall story since Washington's. I'd agree. Yeah. It helps that he got shot. I told you that was the luck overall story since Washington's I'd agree It absolutely got shot

I told you that was the luckiest thing that ever happened That is very true I'm going to give him a 9 Which I believe is what I gave Washington I'm going to match that I think Washington's got more of the dramatic On an iceberg with a bear thing Oh he did have that didn't he

Was there a bear there? There is now That is a mightily impressive 18 For Silver Screen didn't he? Yeah. Was there a bear there? There is now. Yeah, so, okay, that is a mightily impressive 18 for silver screen. Invisibility. Okay, and here is his portrait. Oh. That is the sound of disappointment. He's got his hair how I would want my hair in about 10 years.

Okay, that's nice. I'm sort of trying to go for that already. Yeah. I'm aiming for it. I can see that, actually. It does look a bit like that so okay points for the hair yeah yeah he looks a bit quite stern oh you went for the opposite okay weak-eyed bit craggy but not overly so he doesn't inspire confidence looking at him although his eyes are cold and dead. That's a very, you know, if you came at him with a stick, he'd get the tongs on you. Yes. And grab things you wouldn't want him to grab.

Now I'm imagining him holding the tongs and going for the sensitive areas. Face not changing, though. Yeah, just dead face. And you can imagine him breaking that cup, his teacup, with that face. Yeah. You can imagine him getting angry, can't you? Yeah. He's got the anger line.

Look. Yeah, that is an anger line on his forehead. And it goes up further as well. Yeah. Again, it's the brown background looking off to one side. It's not the most exciting. It's nothing we've not seen before. Yeah, it looks all right.

I'm saying middle of the road for this. Five. Five. Yeah. So that is a total of 2.5 for canvas ability. Bonus! Okay, for bonus points, he earns 2 points for his 2 terms served. Well done there.

Assassination. For the first time, we have a question mark. No one tried to assassinate him, or did they? I don't know. Did they? Well, it depends how much you think Crawford was going to go for it with his game. No, I think it's a lash out of anger. Do you not think that was a full-on assassination attempt?

I'm thinking he wanted to insert his cane, but that's about it. Okay, fair enough. That is a no for assassination. No points there. Election, two points. Huge victories for him. He scores 91.9% of the votes average for both his elections. This is the third best

in US history after Washington and Ronald Reagan. Wow, really? Yeah. So there you go. That's the bonus points there. That gives him a total score of 31.5 which is very respectable but it actually puts him third place.

Really? Oh, really? Madison beats him just... Madison got 32.25. Oh, no. Yeah. Madison's got that whole underdog. He was quite sick for a lot of time. 0.75 more.

Yeah, it was very, very close. But there you go. Third place for Monroe. But there's still a question to ask yeah is he an american i'll let you go first yes decisive yeah he solved a problem that no other president was able to do every the president basically had britain knocking on their doorstep, had Europe barging their way through power plays between France, Spain, Britain, everything just attacking the US. He has solved that problem.

I say he solved that problem. It's been solved in his name. He solved that problem. Yeah. The USA is now on its own to do what it needs to do to grow, to become what it is now, which is the best damn country in the world. True. That's what he did with his left hand.

With his right hand, there's the Missouri Compromise, which is now America's left on its own. It's free to tear itself apart. That's true. But at this point, it hasn't done that. That's a good point. Because at this point, they're just trying to solve problems. Because this is the whole new country the first time.

They're trying to solve problems as quick as they can. They probably wouldn't have considered. Yeah. They are flying by the seams of country the first time. They're trying to solve problems as quick as they can, but they probably wouldn't have considered. Yeah. They are flying by the seams of their pants. Exactly. Yeah. And they've got to do what they've got to do. Yeah.

Yeah. That's my vote, anyway. What do you think? I love the fact that he was shot. It's just a good story. Yeah. I love the fact he was in France during the revolution. I love the fact that he sees a lot of big events that happen.

He saw a lot of history, didn't he? He did see a lot of history. And yeah, so it's a fascinating time. And yes, there's the Monroe Doctrine, which is huge. But him personally, maybe it's the sources I've been reading on him didn't do him justice, but I did not feel a connection with Monroe that I have felt with some of the other presidents. The likes of Washington, there was plenty to dislike, but there was also plenty to like. There was very little to like about Monroe.

He just seemed quite bitter and annoyed all the time. Yeah, I think personally, yes. But I think he overcame that to be president. If you want it, I won't force us to go to the coin. If you want it, I'm willing to let this one go through. Why shouldn't he have it? No, no, you're right. He's the last founding father.

He's established, helped us establish the country. Munro, you are an American. Yeah! Well done, Munro. You join, actually, all of them apart from Adam so far. Monroe, you are an American. Yeah! Well done, Monroe. You join, actually, all of them apart from Adam so far. No, I'm good. Yeah, it makes me sad that one of the least likeable presidents in the early stages was the only one who didn't own slaves. But there you go.

That's the way it is, apparently. So, well done, Monroe. Thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed the episode. Definitely you can follow us on Facebook Twitter and you can download us from Podbean

iTunes yes you can no Stitcher this week no because that's the rover one because I haven't set up the thing for this oh right okay

fair enough I doubt does anyone I don't even know what Stitcher is you just say it every week no it's our first about three years ago

I have no idea okay well yeah you can download our other podcasts on there then so thank you very much for listening a couple of thank yous before we go this time oh thanks to pete yeah pete is uh pete's our friend of old and pete like pretty much everyone we know in the real world uh does not listen to our podcast about the romans because they're not interested uh but

pete's listening to this one. Yeah, and he's currently living in Istanbul in Turkey. Yeah, he lives in Constantinople. Yeah. Yeah, and he does not listen to our podcast, which is talking about Constantinople. I think he said he's gone to see some things that we'd love to see. Yeah, so Pete, you're great, but why not the Roman podcast?

I'll tell you what, he's a lot braver than I would be the fact he's living in a country where you know he's I think he's conversationally quite good with it speaking Turkish but yeah he's a lot braver than I am yes no that would be scary to do so Pete well done yeah and thanks for listening yeah okay and also thank you to everyone else who listens to this podcast and we can't name you one by one because we don't know you personally. But we thank you just as much as Pete. Yeah, thank you. If your name's Tony and you're listening, thank you. Sonia.

Yeah, thank you, Sonia. Clementine. Thank you. Also, thank you to other podcasts who are supporting us by talking about us or giving me ideas or just generally being fantastic podcasts such as pontifax podcasts such as the presidency's podcast people versus potus podcast rex factor obviously always and also saga thing a wonderful podcast by people who actually know what they're talking about yes nice yeah so thank you to all of those.

So after our big long list of thank yous, all that needs to be said, next time is John Quincy Adams, and goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Mr. President, sir, it's unfortunate that Clay has decided against the position. I must insist that you need to get this position sorted soon. Well, luckily it is no longer dark times. The war is over.

After sapping our energy, sapping our good feelings, and sapping our morale, we are now in the era of good feelings. Well, that's all very nice, sir, but that's not helping. Who are you going to put in the post? Well, I have a few people to consider. How about Sensible Samuel? Samuel?

Oh, he is so sensible. He just gets it, doesn't he? He's so logical. He's so logical. He understands the empathy drips. It oozes out of him. That's true. You give him a problem, he'll solve it. He'll give the logical, cold, hard facts to solve that problem.

Yes. The perfect man for the job. Yes. I kind of have to think, though, he's a bit pessimistic. Constantly saying things like, we shouldn't own slaves. And perhaps maybe we didn't win the War of 1812. And quite frankly, it's just damned annoying. Yeah.

In fact, I just want to punch you in the face just thinking about it. He's very annoying, isn't he? Yes. Yeah, so let's not have him. You've got a list there. Well, I say a list. It looks like there's just one name on. Yes, well, I don't want you to say no straight away.

Okay. I was thinking of Calhoun, sir. Calhoun? Yes, you know the one. I'll show you his portrait. Okay, I'm a bit confused. No, it's this one. Oh, good God almighty!

Look at the eyes. He may look like a psychopathic madman but he might not be what will he be like what what will he do but that's just it sir anything you want anything

but there you go it's a day it's happened hope you had a good one I hope you all donned your star and stripe boxers

no no you're not supposed to wear stars and stripes are you not I thought that made you like. No, no, you're not supposed to wear stars and stripes. Are you not? It's flag etiquette. You're not supposed to wear it on clothing. Although everybody does. What if it's all you have to wear is a flag? It's for modesty reason.

Is it worse to wear the flag or just go naked? I would wear it more like a sarong rather than like a nappy because it might get... You don't want a skinny flag, do you? Well, I don't know. If you're listening, write in on a postcard. If you ever found yourself marooned in, I don't know, just a field somewhere. Right.

You've got... Heavy night drinking. Yes. Bachelor party. Yes, right. You wake up from a bachelor party. You realise that you've got no clothes. All you have is the sheep that you're handcuffed to and an American flag.

Yeah. How do you cover your decency? Good question. It's a good question to start us off. Anyway, welcome. Let's jump straight in with no delay, shall we? Absolutely. Yes.

Smooth.