American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 6.2 John Q Adams

Episode Date: August 4, 2018

  After spending some time getting to know the Tzar and the war torn countries of Europe, John finds himself back home. He has plans. Big plans. He can see just how to make the US as rich in culture, and as strong economically as Europe. All he has to do is get people to stop laughing at him. And if only that oaf Jackson would just go away... 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, John Cresci Adams, part two. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Total's Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And here we are with 6.2, the second part of John Quincy Adams. Ooh, yeah. He's a bit of a traveller, isn't he? He is a bit of a traveller. In fact, shall we do a quick recap? That'd be very handy. Yes, please. Yeah, OK, right. Very quick recap here.

Recap music. Cued. We don't have recap music. Maybe we should have meant something. I can hum at the top if you want. Go on then. Right. That might just be distracting.

I'll loop it and put it in the background. That'd be fun. Right. He grew up in Europe. He travelled. He got to know the Swedes. The vegetable or the people? The people.

Okay. Remember? Maybe both. Yeah. But yeah. The lovely d the people? The people. Okay. Remember? Maybe both. Yeah. But yeah, the lovely dames. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes.

Then he went back home. He went to Harvard. He failed to be a good lawyer. Yeah. He decided to get into politics. Washington sent him off to be the ambassador in the Netherlands. He then met his wife in London. Yeah, he did.

Then went to Berlin. Way. Had a child. Ooh. Went back to the US and served on the Massachusetts Senate. They all hated him so much they told him to go for the National Senate, which he did. There he managed to annoy pretty much everyone by not towing the party line. Eventually he switched parties to the Republicans and got a job in Harvard.

He then sets off to Russia and saw some imprisoned US sailors on the way. And there you go. I mean, we could have just said that last week instead of the whole episode, really, couldn't we? It'd be a lot quicker, yeah. It would be a lot quicker. But that's what he's done so far. That's a lot. We recap because he squeezed a lot in.

So, expecting good things from him? Well, he's so universally disliked by pretty much everybody. So, it's... I think that'll make it tricky for him. He might be building enemies. I'm not sure. Okay. Let's find out.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do this. So we're in Russia. Russia's lovely. Yeah. St. Petersburg.

Full of big buildings. Yes. And Russians. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. More canals than Venice. Nice.

So is Birmingham. Yeah. As they constantly say all the time. So is Birmingham. Yeah. As they constantly say all the time. Is that true? Yeah. Or is it just one long canal? I'm not sure, actually. Maybe it's one of those things that people say that aren't actually true.

I don't know. But Birmingham quite often say they've got more canals than Venice, and then you think, yeah, but they're horrible. Yeah. One of them goes right next to my house, and it's not a nice canal. No, that's one with all the dead things in it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, St Petersburg wasn't like that at the time.

It was really nice. He was enjoying it. Yeah. You've got John Quincy. Yep. His wife, Louisa, and their little boy, Charles. Remember, he's left his eldest two back at home, but their youngest is with them.

Because he went when he was young, didn't he, with his daddy? Yeah. Well, Charles is going because he's tiny. He's a little baby in arms, so that's why he's got to go. No excuse for not learning, though. Yeah, OK, fair enough. So, in Russia, the Tsar and his wife rapidly become firm friends with them. They are attending balls that look like they were out of fairy tales. Wow.

Yeah, according to Louisa, they ate off plates of solid gold and silver. The servants were dressed with different liveries, depending on their rank, and everything worked like, and I quote, a piece of clockwork. I guess they've got that because they've done it so long, it's just so ingrained, like with British royalties. Yeah, everything just works. Yeah, apparently you didn't need to ask for anything

because by the time you'd finished something, a servant was already there with a top-up or a fresh piece of bread or something. That sounds fantastic. Yeah, it was a good place to be. They were enjoying themselves. Things were a tad awkward when it became obvious that the Tsar had taken a shine to Louisa's sister, Kitty, who had gone along with them. Right.

Yeah, a little bit awkward. I mean, he is married and the Tsar of Russia. Mrs. Ireda just sitting there scowling, don't top up her wine, sort of thing, to the waiters. Yeah. Spill the bread on her face. Well, apparently the Tsar would just suddenly appear whenever the two women happened to be out. Like, if they went to the park, oh, look who's here. They go to the museum, oh, the Tsar would just suddenly appear whenever the two women happened to be out.

Like, if they went to the park, oh, look who's here. They go to the museum, oh, the Tsar's there. Oh, he's got his hand in his pocket again. Not again. Muck away, muck away. They escape by going to the toilet and he just pops his head out of one of the toilets. Hi! Yeah, it got a bit freaky.

Yeah. Yeah. A bit weird. Anyway, apart from that, things are going very well. Soon enough, Louisa was pregnant freaky. Yeah. Yeah. A bit weird. Anyway, apart from that, things are going very well. Soon enough, Louisa was pregnant yet again. Again? Yeah. Now, around this time, John received word.

He'd been offered a position on the Supreme Court, nonetheless. A huge privilege. This would set his family up for life. It would also mend a lot of political scars that he had created whilst a senator. This is your band-aid. This is your placer to fix everything. To everyone's shock, John Quincy turned it down. I'm not surprised, though.

I'd turn it down. Why? Russia sounds brilliant. Yeah, you do get the feeling he was just lomming Russia too much. It's like, no, I'm going to stay here. He used the excuse that Louisa was pregnant so they couldn't travel back. But, I mean, they could have waited and then gone back. Yeah, it seems like an excuse.

It's just, you're there in a literal fairy tale. Let's keep that up for as long as possible, really. Before he ruins it. I mean, what's he got to go back to? Washington, D.C., which is still at this point literally a bit of a swamp. Yeah. With a few buildings in it to go and study law again. Nah, let's stay here.

Yeah. So, he stays. He worked on being an ambassador. His close ties with the Tsar meant that he could ask him to put a word in with the Danes about those prisoners he spotted on the way over. Nice. Yeah. Sure enough, they were freed.

So there you go. Those prisoners who were cursing his name when he just walked by. Oh, no, no, fair enough. Sorry, sir. Good old Johnny pulled through for us. Plus, good news, he now has a daughter. Oh. Yes. Keep away from the czar.

A little Russian daughter, also named Louisa. Oh. John Quincy wrote to his mother, I think that this will convince you that the climate of St. Petersburg is not too cold to produce children. Right. Yeah. He literally wrote to his mum, look

Ma, I can still get it up in Russia. Nothing's frozen here. It's all thawed out nicely, thank you very much. That's quite a brag. It is quite a brag, yeah. I don't have children, but I'd like to think that when I do, I'd write something similar to mine.

Or maybe not. See, Mum proved you wrong. In fact, my mum listens to this, so Mum, don't worry, I'm not going to send you a letter like that. No, it's 21st century. Send her a text. Yeah, exactly. Or WhatsApp. Facebook, do it a text. Yeah, exactly. Or WhatsApp.

Facebook. Do it on Facebook. Yeah, more public. The good times, however, were not to last. So rarely do they continue. Yeah. As I mentioned last time, the political climate in Europe had changed once again, and Napoleon had started marching troops into Russia.

Bad mistake on his part, though. I know Russia's hard to take because Napoleon's never played risk. Yes, yeah. If you play risk, you realise you don't take Russia, apparently. And, yeah, that's what Napoleon was going to do. He was determined. Yeah. Yeah.

But still, this wasn't what was causing dismay in the Adams household. It was an interesting development. What was causing dismay was the disease that was sweeping through the capital. Little Louisa came down ill. No. She did not last long. She died very shortly afterwards. Sad. Louisa just collapses at this point, utterly distraught. Understandably, John Quincy and his nephew, who was also with them, took the coffin and buried it in a church in Russia. The fact that Kitty gets pregnant at this point probably didn't cheer anyone up. Yeah.

Well, according to the history books, it was the nephew that I just mentioned that actually got Kitty pregnant. But I'm still looking at the czar myself. Because every time you ask him about it, he just changes the subject. Yeah. Costs awkwardly. Yeah. So the couple struggle on for a while. By the time that the sound of cannons could be heard in the distance,

they can hear some fighting going on. SMB is quite close, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They're not far away. John Quincy was well enough again to resume work, but he had very little to do. The Russians were facing an invasion force That they had not thought possible The largest fighting force Ever assembled

At this point in history Was invading their country So that's tens of thousands 630,000 men That's hundreds of thousands That's insane And that won't even consider all the extra stuff they're going to take, like

the cooks and the blacksmiths. Yeah. Gun people and the carriers. Yeah, the French Revolution, what was remarkable about this phase is that pretty much everyone in France joined the army. It was really the people's army. Wow. The rest of Europe was not ready

for this. That's insane. Yeah. That's over half a million. Yeah. That's army. Wow. The rest of Europe was not ready for this. That's insane. Yeah. That's over half a million. Yeah. That's brutal. That's almost, that's, how many, 600 and? 30,000. Oh, yeah, that's just a bit less than the amount of downloads we've had for Roman Emperor

of the Tartarankium. Yes, it is. That's one soldier for every listen to our podcast. Good way to get download figures, though. Get more to download it as they're marching. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I'm sure they would have enjoyed listening to our podcast on the march into Russia. I think so.

Yeah. Not French, though. Oh, it's true to understand. Yeah. It's a huge invasion. However, the scorched earth policy that Russia employed worked quite well, and the French were forced to retreat over hundreds and thousands of miles with the Russians constantly picking them off

starving them out yeah and obviously a huge oversimplification there but we don't have time to go into the French invasion of Russia just know that it was not good with an estimated million deaths in this campaign alone. On Russia and... Yeah. That's more Russians dying. Oh, yeah, yeah, Russians suffered just as much as the French. A lot of farmers, a lot of farmland people being killed.

Yeah, it's a lot of death. A lot. I mean, this is something else. It's a scale we haven't seen before in a military... Yeah, yeah, this was big. Wow. John Quincy was shocked, to say... Yeah, yeah, this was big. Wow. John Quincy was shocked, to say the least, at the level of death and destruction.

It convinced him more than ever that the US needed to stay out of wars with the powers of Europe. Yeah. You're seeing firsthand how big these things can get. This is in a different league to what the US are used to. We cannot get involved with this. Meanwhile, back in the US, the senator declared war on Britain. Oh, brilliant. Yes. As we've seen, this didn't go too well to begin with.

Now, the Tsar, although allied with Britain against France, had no intention of getting involved in the US war. But he did say to his new friend, John Quincy, that he was willing to attempt to talk to the British, just to mediate things. Yeah, now, you may remember the last couple of episodes, I've mentioned that the Russians suddenly pop out of nowhere and say, oh, we'll mediate for you. And it might have been a bit weird that the Russians were getting involved. Well, this is why. It's because John Quincy's there. Anyway, John Quincy sent this offer on. President Madison, at the time, jumped at the chance. Wonderful. Yeah, let's try and end this war because it's not actually going too well.

However, as we saw, the British simply said, no. We're good, thanks. You started this. We'll end it. Oh yeah. So John Quincy remained in St Petersburg. The shine had gone off the place, though. It no longer felt like a fairy tale.

It's all blood. Yeah. Louisa was still very much in a bad way. Eventually, word came through from Madison. The British were finally signalling that they would stop the war now. John Quincy was chosen to go to Belgium and start the negotiations. So, leaving his wife and his child behind, Europe's a bit dangerous at the moment, so leaving them behind,

John Quincy crosses war-torn Europe. By this time, the French had been pushed all the way back to Paris, pretty much, and had surrendered. Word reached him that Napoleon had been exiled. This didn't look good for the US. Yeah, Britain could now focus on their war with them rather than being tied up in Europe. When John Quincy reached Ghent in Belgium, he was joined by four other US diplomats,

including a man named Henry Clay, who I've mentioned before. Now, as the most experienced ambassador, John Quincy would take the lead in the negotiations. The five men rented a house together and soon became good friends. I can only imagine a sitcom will be made of that event at some point. That would be brilliant. All the shenanigans they'll get up to. Well, apparently they get on brilliantly, all of them. Yeah, John Quincy's not

too impressed with the late night card games but he's not actually annoyed with it. In fact, in John Quincy's words we are not troublesome to each other. That's practically glowing. That for John Quincy's words, we are not troublesome to each other. Oh, that's practically glowing. That for John Quincy, I think, is glowing, yeah.

Yeah, this was John Quincy writing to his wife to let her know that he was having a nice time. I'm sure that really cheered her up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. Glad to hear that. I'm someone in the death of our child, but you carry on. You enjoy your card games with Clay. You do that. Yeah. I'm someone in the death of our child, but you carry on. You enjoy your card games with clay. You do that.

So negotiations begin. The British were being tough and became even more so when news came through that the British had just burnt down the Capitol building and the presidential mansion. I can only imagine they were insufferably smug that day in the negotiation room. Yes, we could always head back to yours to sign the... Oh, wait, no, we can't. Oh, no, that's a shame. Let's stay here.

Would you like some refreshments, some toast? Sorry, it's a bit burnt. Yeah. If it's a bit cold, we can always light a fire. Yeah, or possibly even more subtle, ah, we burnt down the White House. Yeah. Not white anymore, though, is it? Yeah, bad day down the White House. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Not white anymore though, is it?

Yeah, bad day in the negotiation table. Britain demanded that Maine be given to them and the setting up of a state for the American Indian tribes. John Quincy refused this out of hand. That wasn't good enough and negotiations stalled to a halt, much to everyone's annoyance really, but especially John Quincy's. It soon became clear that these talks were just going nowhere. Equally, however, in Britain there was an increasing number

of politicians who just wanted this war to go away now. Look, we're not making any money here. If the war just goes away, we can start up trade and then everyone's happy. Across the sea in the US, the mood also became more desperate as it became clear that they could not defeat the British. the US, the mood also became more desperate as it became clear that they could not defeat the British. So both sides started to really want an end to the war. So eventually, the compromise we've seen before was created. Why don't we just all pretend this never happened? Yeah, they just turn up one day and say, war? What war? I'm here to see the sights of Belgium. Belgium's beautiful this time of year. Yes. I'm just going to sign this bit of paper that's in front of me.

No idea what's on it. Oh, I might also sign it as well. Wonderful. See you next time. Yeah, see you. On the 24th of December, 1814, a peace treaty was signed and word was sent off to the US to let everyone know the war was over. Everyone can stop fighting. In New Orleans, Jackson didn't get the message. He was too busy

killing the British. Yeah. It's hard to read your post whilst you're skewering British officers with your sword. British kebab. Yeah. Still, John Quincy was overjoyed, writing that this was the happiest day of his life. To Louisa. Aww. I'm guessing that must have cheered her up. Yeah. So glad that you think so, John. Whilst I'm still mourning the death of our child and looking at all our lovely wedding pictures.

Yes. Portraits we had done. Here's the birthdays of our sons, John. Yeah. Oh, I remember this one. Our anniversary. That was a nice day, wasn't it? No, you signed a bit of paper.

In Belgium. Good for you. With your BFFs. So, John Quincy heads to Paris. He doesn't go back to Russia. Not anymore. Too scared. Yeah, so he heads to Paris and sends word to his wife and his son

that they should meet him there. Louisa sets off, more than happy to leave this city that was now just full of bad memories for her. A nurse and two servants rode with them, but that was it. It was a small group. The carriage had tracks rather than wheels for the first part of the journey because there was so much snow, yeah. Eventually they change to wheels and they trundle through war-torn Europe. Not a pleasant journey.

After being warned by an innkeeper that the road that they were about to take was the scene of a murder just the day before, they decide, well, let's not go down that road then. Let's go down a different road. Yeah, they go down a different road and get completely lost. Louisa despairs, starting to fear for Charles' life. They spot someone in the distance. Fortunately, it's a friendly farmer. Yeah, who directs them onto the right track. So that's good. All you need to do is turn back and go down that death road. You're fine.

Don't know why he's an Irish farmer. He's lost as well. Yeah. The entire area is just full of people from all over the world, just completely lost. Ah, there's a Welshman. You're right. Yeah, so one of these lost farmers managed to point them in the direction of France. Days later, however, they came across a battlefield which was strewn with decomposing bodies.

Good biology lesson for Charles. Yeah. Look, little Charles, look. See how that eye socket's just really collapsed there. Yes. See, look, eyeballs. I might have jelly. Look.

Lovely. Lovely. And I'll quote here, the field was filled with an immense quantity of bones. Yeah. So that was obviously a fun day, that one. Then the servants refused to go any further, stating that they'd be drafted into the French army if they got too close.

That's possible. Yeah, so they just quit. Louisa goes on with just the driver, her son, and the nurse. This is dangerous times, as they find out very shortly when they enter France. They came across a bunch of soldiers. The soldiers looked at the carriage. What did they notice about the carriage? Fancy.

Where'd it come from? Oh, Russia. Yeah. They see this fancy Russian carriage and shouts of, kill them, tear them apart, was soon wafting through the carriage windows. That might unsettle them, I'm guessing. Yes, quite possibly. Fortunately, the troops were disciplined enough

to wait for a French general to come and check them out. Louisa told the general who she was, and to her relief, he believed her. Shouts of, Viva l'Américain rang out through the land. That's nice. Yeah. Well, sort of.

Because the general, whilst the troops were shouting their support for the Americans, leaned in and said, paraphrasing here, by the way, I have a very tenuous hold over these men. I can barely control them. We'll escort you part of the way to Paris, but if you look uneasy, they will start getting suspicious of you. And I won't be able to do anything about it. So, smile.

Keep grinning. Yeah. Grin! Grin! Yeah, Louisa finished the journey with a very fixed grin. Yeah, just keep saying cheese. Yes. Keep saying cheese! Also, news was swirling around that Napoleon had escaped his exile and was heading for Paris.

Oh. That's fun. Louisa and Charles arrive in Paris the very same day that Napoleon did. Do you think they awkwardly meet at the train station or something? Yeah. Oh, hey. Yeah. Taller than I expected. Going to Paris the train station or something? Yeah. Oh, hey! Taller than I expected.

Going to Paris, are you? Why? Interesting. Want to share a cab? Yeah. Well, Napoleon wasn't alone. He was by this point leading his army, ready to retake Paris. Oh, wonderful.

Yeah. John Quincy and Louisa, who arrived just before Napoleon, managed to meet up in what must have been a very frantic day. I mean, Paris is about to be taken over. Combust. Yeah. Not the safest place to be, they decided. So, where can we go? Let's go to England. It would be a bit safer in England. So they rush north and they manage to get a boat to England just before the French authorities close the ports down. So they just get out in time.

Safe in England, John Quincy met up with Henry Clay and his other new friends from Belgium and was soon involved in the negotiations with Britain over trade now that the war was over. News of Napoleon's defeat in Waterloo came through shortly afterwards and yet again the British seemed a bit smug during negotiations. I think they're going to build a massive column. What do you think? Massive, massive column. We're thinking of building a train station named after that battle as well.

Oh, yeah. I mean, we'll have to invent trains first, but I think it'll be worth it. Yeah. And that's why trains'll be worth it. Yeah. And that's why trains were invented. Yes. Yeah. When were trains invented? We can't be far off here.

I think in my head it's late 1700s, the idea. Oh, okay. Like basically a kettle. Go on and look it up. I'm going to say 1830s the first one was running. Okay. Here we go. Steam locomotive. Oh. Here we go. Steam locomotive.

Oh, here we go. The first steam locomotive made by Richmond, 21st February 1804. Oh, okay. So the idea's around. They can definitely think about naming a train station after the bad one. Yeah, so in 1801 there was a road locomotive, basically a steam train on the road with wheels. Right, okay. Like a steam-powered car.

So yes, trains were technically around. Newfang trains that's what yes brand new invention yeah okay right steven's liverpool and manchester railway which opened in 1830 which is what you said oh see i'm not i wasn't too far off right okay so they were a thing yeah that's they were talking about these new trains in the negotiation meetings. Yeah. So eventually the US and Britain managed to get a pretty good treaty put together. Both sides were going to benefit out of this. Everyone was fairly happy. Special relationship.

Yeah. Established free commerce between the two countries. It set it up so the US could trade directly with all British ports. Nice. Including those in India. So that really opened up some minds. Yeah. They no longer had to all British ports. Nice. Including those in India. So that really opened up some minds. They no longer had to go via Britain. Yeah.

That's really handy. Oh, brilliant. We can get things like spices and salt and... Yeah, yeah. Silks. It's going to be good for the US. Everything's looking quite good about this. It was all about to be signed when John Quincy noticed something.

Ah. Yeah. The bottom of the US version of the treaty essentially said, signed by Great Britain and the United States of America. That's what it said at the bottom. Right. Great Britain and the United States of America. He wanted the US to go first.

Well, John Quincy balked at this. It was diplomatic tradition that the copy that Britain would have would have the names in that order, but the copy that the US would have would have the US's name first. So this is where Tippex was invented. Yeah. John Quincy loudly announced that he would refuse to sign the treaty. His fellow diplomats despaired,

fearing that this would scuttle all of their hard work. This had not been easy to put together, and it was a pretty good treaty. Everyone was really happy with it. One of them told John Quincy, It is a matter of no importance. Seriously, John, can we just sign the damn treaty? Shut up, shut up, shut up. But no, John Quincy would not budge.

This was a clear insult to their country. One of his fellow negotiators from the US side said to him, but this will throw the business into confusion. John replied, you and Mr Clay can do what you please, but I will not sign this treaty without the alternative signatures. Now, don't fly off in this matter. Indeed, sir, I will not sign the treaty in any other form. So he's saying he just won't sign it at all, even if it's corrected now?

No, no, he will not sign the treaty unless it's corrected. Yeah, he's just refusing to do this. He said that having no treaty was better than this treaty because they could never deal with a Briton that did not respect them enough to have the signatures the correct way. Is it just Novus an oversight, though? Well, I'd love to think that the apprentice scribe that had hastily put them together that morning

was sitting in the corner feeling really awkward at this point. I did try and look up whether this was a deliberate slight and I couldn't find it anywhere, but I'd like to think it was just an oversight. Yeah. And John is just getting really wound up. And literally everyone in the room from the US and the British side are all going, oh, God, could we just get the papers changed?

Can't they just do that? Yeah, they did. And the British just drew up some new documents. And John Quincy signed, feeling like he'd achieved something. And who knows? Maybe he had. Maybe this shows not pushovers. Well, yeah, exactly. Maybe this shows enough pushovers. Well, yeah,

exactly. Maybe this was a deliberate slight from Britain. And yeah, John Quincy proved a point. It was a test of strength. Yeah. Or maybe this was an oversight and John now just looks like a fool. Who knows? I'm going with that one. We'd have to be there. Anyway, after this slightly awkward start, John actually found he got on very well with the British diplomats. And soon enough, he was doing his usual competent job. His family settled down, and his other two sons soon arrived from the US. Delighting, Louisa. Family reunited. Now, peace had descended upon Europe for the first time since anyone could pretty much remember.

Europe's at peace. It's amazing. So Britain were looking around and realising, you know what, guys, we're on top here. We're now the largest power in the world. We're still standing. Yeah. France have just been destroyed. The other powers in Europe are quite damaged. Yeah, it's looking pretty good. So Britain started looking around. Let's maybe make some more trade deals. Let's start expanding. So John Quincy was right there, ready to take advantage of this. And a lot of deals were made. And John Quincy does a very good job. He managed to get the Great Lakes to be demilitarised. A big win.

Yeah, he's doing a good job. But maybe he gets a bit overconfident, because then he turned to the question that had never really gone away between the US and Britain. The problem with impressment. Britain kidnapping US sailors and forcing them to work in their navy. Doesn't look good, does it? No, I mean, it's not good. John approached Britain's Foreign Secretary, who he'd become quite good friends with, and just said, look, can you stop impressing our sailors and the foreign secretary said i didn't know we did impress your sailors we do have big ships and they're pretty sexy but yeah can't help it if our navy's impressing people just got a massive navy massive the foreign secretary very polite, but pointed out that it would be almost impossible to untie this knot that was impressment.

I mean, we can't figure out where these people came from, so how are we going to return them? Yeah, it's bad. Yeah, maybe we shouldn't have done it, but there's nothing we can do about it now. Let bygones be bygones was essentially the answer. Not really what John Quincy was looking for, but not much he can do. So he turned to the other big predicament between the two countries.

Returning slaves to their owners who had fled to the British during the war. Ooh. Yeah. Ooh, that's not good. Yeah. This time the Foreign Secretary went, you know what, this is above my pay grade.

You can talk to the Prime Minister, and I will quote the British Prime Minister here. I do not think that they, the slaves, can be considered precisely under the general denomination of private property. A table or a chair, for instance, might be taken and restored without changing its condition, but a living human being is entitled to other considerations. That sounds surface level not too bad. No, it's really not too bad at all. John Quincy pointed out that the treaty after the Revolutionary War did not make such a distinction, but his heart really wasn't in this.

I mean, he was a New Englander. He's not been around slavery. And what little he had seen, he really did not like. He detests slavery himself. So he just went, yeah, you've got a good point there, and let the matter slide. Fair enough. Yeah. Good. That was a good call.

We'll come back to that. Back home, Monroe, riding a wave of popularity after the recent war, was made president. Two days later, Monroe let it be known that he wanted none other than John Quincy to be his Secretary of State. A clear stepping stone to become the next president. As we've seen, Secretary of States tend to go on to become presidents in this time. Yeah, so that was a big deal. John was unsure whether to accept, however. Turned out he actually quite liked Britain. It was quite nice. I say we should. Yeah, he was popular there. It was not

quite as magical as things were in St. Petersburg, but London was increasingly becoming the city to be in if you wanted to see things unfold. I guess it's like the France that was, you know, 100 years ago. Yeah, exactly. And he had a little place in the country, and him and Louisa were going through a good patch once more. So, yeah, things were nice. His father wrote to him, Except without hesitation. You're now 50 years of age.

In my opinion, you must return or renounce it forever. Yeah. It did not help that his father was already getting letters of congratulations on his son's appointment Yeah, everyone just assumed he'd go for this You have to accept Yeah Your mother's already got the bunting up

There are balloons and everything So, perhaps feeling the pressure from his father John Quincy accepts They get on a ship and head back home It's been a way long time, hasn't it? Oh yeah, definitely John Quincy accepts. They get on a ship and head back home. It's been a way long time, hasn't it? Oh yeah, definitely. He and his family were very relieved to see that John Adams and Abigail were both alive and well

when they returned. There was a very real fear that when they left it would be the last time they saw them. Yeah, they're getting on in age now. But no, a happy reunion of the family takes place. Good. It didn't last long, however, because John Quincy and Louisa then had to head off to Washington on a brand new contraption, a steamboat.

Ooh. Yeah, yeah, they were very impressed with the steamboat. It's got all the big paddle wheel things at the side, I'm guessing. It's just a steam train with a big rubber ring on it. Nice. Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

Anyway, they reached the capital. Despite the British raid and the burning, the city was still growing. They were quite impressed. What's more, the rebuilt presidential mansion and the capital building had been reconstructed. Yeah. Yeah. Things weren't looking quite as bad as they feared it would. A British man called Latrobe had been given the task to repair the Capitol building.

Which I'd like to think... Yeah, I'd like to think it was a case of, you there! Yes? You're British. Go and repair the Capitol building. You'd not destroyed it. You could rebuild it. Well, I'm quite handy with a paintbrush, sir, but I don't know if I can...

I'm a baker. What do you want me to do? I don't care. Go and fix it. Right now. Here's the book. Architects for Dummies. Yeah. Now, Latrobe obviously was a well-renowned architect. He worked on the Capitol building while the original architect, Hoban, worked on the presidential mansion.

The original? Wow. Yeah, yeah. He's still around. So he works on the mansion. Now, the mansion building was not actually raised to the ground by the British, and a heavy storm had actually put out the fire before it could completely destroy the building. That's handy. So a lot of work needed doing to it, but the building was salvageable. Hoban, being told that speed was the most important thing, we've got to look like we're back on our feet here, get that done quickly, he decides to cut some corners. Ah.

Yeah. He used wooden frames for all of the interior, even reusing some of the scorched frames from the fire that look sturdy enough still. Yeah. Tap, tap, tap, crack. That'll be fine. It'll be fine.

It's all good. This is fine. This will never come back to haunt them whatsoever. I've seen some amazing photographs of the White House where at some point, I think it was either the beginning of the 1900s or late 1800s, where literally the whole inside is re-gutted. Later than that, that's in the 40s, the 50s, I think.

Yeah, they had to completely gut all of the inside of the White House. That's because some fool had used wooden frames for everything in the interior. Yeah, that's exactly why that had to happen. It's because Hogan had to very quickly put it back together. One of the pianos fell. Well, it didn't completely fall, but one of the legs fell through the floor at one point and there was a family underneath just saw a piano leg suddenly come through the ceiling they quickly realized that yeah something needed to be done so they had to gut the entire white house but we'll come to

that in a much later episode but this is the start of that yeah definitely still they're putting up all the interior um but it's gonna look good as as well, hasn't it? And the scorch marks really needed to be painted over. What colour did they go for? A fresh coat of whitewash was applied to the entire building. Yeah. Now, it had already been that colour before, so this wasn't a new colour for the building. But the difference is, when they first built the presidential mansion, it was on its own. And then buildings started popping up

around it. And the presidential mansion became a bit more dull as time goes on, as things do. Pollution, isn't it? Yeah. Now, all of a sudden, it looked bright and shiny white again. But at this point, the city had started to grow around it. So it was much more obviously noticeably white. Some people had already started calling it the White House before this. But this is where the name really sticks. Yeah. So we will refer to it as the White House before this, but this is where the name really sticks. So we will refer to it as the White House from now on. The work inside was still going on when Adams arrived and searched for the President.

The President wasn't in the White House, but I'd like to think he was, surrounded by all the buildings, still trying to get his work done. Tubbs of whitewash. Yeah. So, John Quincy is now Secretary of State. Monroe informs him that he wanted to announce the rest of whitewash. Yeah. Yeah. So, John Quincy is now Secretary of State. Monroe informs him that he wanted to announce the rest of the Cabinet. Good thing you're here, John. It's time for me to choose everyone else. I've decided your good friend Henry Clay will be the Secretary of War.

He's pleased, John, obviously, until he learnt that Clay had refused. Clay wanted to be Secretary of State or nothing, and was a bit miffed that John had got the job. Jealous. Yeah. Monroe therefore turned to his Marvel book of villains and appointed Calhoun. Oh, yeah.

Yes. John was then sworn in and started his job. However, John's previous activities in Washington started to come back to haunt him. He'd made very few friends last time and now he started to be shunned. He was seen as a bit of an outsider. Quirky John, is he really American? He's spent half his life in Europe.

It didn't really help that he used to walk around with a massive Russian hat on and a huge coat. That's really funny. Yeah. Also, his wife. She's got a huge coat. That's really funny. Yeah. Also, his wife. She's got a British accent. Hmm. Hadn't the British just burnt down the White House? Not sure I like that.

Still, John had been chosen for a reason and his connections did not let him down. It was not long before he had managed to make another deal with Britain. Britain would stop impressing sailors for 10 years. Only 10 years? That's really weird. Yeah, I mean, who knows what's going to happen in 10 years' time. We might need our army back, but right now the world's at peace.

Yeah, we're less keen. Not only that, they would expand the fishing rights of the US and they would allow John Quincy's friend, Tsar Alexander, to mediate the whole slave compensation thing. John's got a bit more weight now, he's Secretary of State. He's starting to get these things done. The slave issue took quite a while, but in the end the Tsar decided, perhaps unsurprisingly, with the US.

Okay. And Britain paid the US over a million dollars in compensation for the slaves that had run away during the war. That's about 30 million in today's money. Yeah, so that happened. Still, more things were going on. The borders with the US and Canada were neatened a bit. No one likes a messy border.

It's still into a straight line, shall we? Yeah, exactly. And not only that, the US gained some land in doing this. A 150-mile strip, in fact, that ran across their northern border. Yeah, those northern states would look a lot smaller nowadays if that hadn't happened however things were not always chummy between the two countries one day after congress had discussed the possibility of people settling in the mouth of the columbia river that's um the river that would eventually split oregon and

washington state right so we're in that corner of the states here. That's on the side of the country, isn't it? Yeah, this is disputed land between Britain and the US at the time. And Congress were discussing, shall we settle some people there? The British ambassador heard about this and walked into John's office demanding to know what the US were up to. Why are you talking about settling in this area that doesn't belong to you? John was outraged. He said that it was not the ambassador's business. If the House of Commons in Britain had discussed the Shetland Islands, he said, he wouldn't walk into his office and demand to know what was going on. The ambassador was equally outraged and said, and I quote,

well, do you have claim on the Shetlands? John retorted, well, have you got a claim on the mouth of the Columbia River? British ambassador replied, well, do you not claim on the Shetlands? John retorted, Well, have you got claim on the mouth of the Columbia River? British ambassador replied, Well, do you not know that we have a claim? I do not know what you claim and what you do not claim. You claim India. You claim Africa. You claim... And at this point, the British ambassador interrupted sarcastically and went, What, a piece of the moon?

John replied, No, I have not heard that you claim exclusively any part of the moon, but there is not one spot on this globe that I can affirm that you don't claim. Oh. Yeah. Pointing out the territorial, rabby nature. Sod off, Britain, with your massive empire. Yeah, this heated exchange, by the way, took place about 150 years

before it was formally agreed that no country would ever stake claim on the moon. Oh, really? Yeah. It's insane to think that we're only about 150 years away from the moon landing at this point. Wow, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the discussion also set out that John Quincy saw it as the US's right to have the rest of the continent. Butt out Britain was essentially what he was saying.

However, something new soon came through to occupy John's time. Andrew Jackson had just invaded Spanish Florida. Yeah. Yeah, now as we saw in Madison's episode, who knew what and when is a little bit messy. But Adams was clear on one thing. Although the president and everyone in the cabinet thought that Jackson had acted illegally,

Adams stated that he thought Jackson had not violated any instructions. The actions of Spanish officers in Florida had forced Jackson's hand. So John was more than happy for this blatant invasion to take place. The debate raged on as to how much the government should disavow Jackson's actions or get behind him. John found himself the sole voice arguing against abandoning Jackson. He wasn't really successful with the cabinet, but he did enough, as did the positive public opinion of the invasion, for Jackson to become governor of Florida.

So he won the president round. John now had the thorny diplomatic mission to smooth things over with Spain. Yeah, we've just invaded some of your territory, but it's so far away from you anyway. Yeah, exactly. And we didn't kill all of your soldiers. Well, he sent word to the US ambassador in Madrid. Tell them over there, either cede Florida or actually do something about the raids from, and I quote, Florida-based renegades. However, this business was interrupted when John got a letter from his son. Which one? John Adams II.

Ah. Yeah, the bizarrely named one. Yeah. Abigail was dead. No! Yeah, Abigail's gone. Now, although obviously hugely distraught by the death of his mother, this really does knock him back quite a bit. But it comes at a very bad time politically.

He's very busy busy he's got stuff he needs to do john quincy was forced to keep up his work monroe was about to deliver a justification for jackson's actions and gain retroactive approval for the invasion which is always fun at the time it was illegal but yeah a collective shrug yeah they're great beaches so exactly we need to put our golf courses and our retirement homes somewhere. And we love alligators. So John Quincy, despite mourning the death of his mother, wrote the speech for Monroe. The invasion was necessary for the safety of the country.

Jackson would not be punished. He was a patriot. He had stopped the raids on their southern border. This was enough to win over Congress, or at least enough of them. Meanwhile, Spain, facing revolts all over their American territories, agreed to cede the land to the US as long as the US removed their troops first, just to make it seem like it was them giving the US land rather than it being a forceful takeover.

It's amazing how politics works, isn't it? Yeah, you can have it if you just back off a bit more. Over the hill. Keep going! I hate them. I'd like to think the Spanish just a flash of a they're gone now, shall we give up the land?

I don't know, they probably should. They'll just come back again. I'll keep getting bitten by this big green lizard thing. Yeah, whose idea was it to hold Florida anyway? So, the troops were removed. However, to John Quincy's horror, once the treaty, the final treaty to confirm all this had been drafted, Henry Clay, who had become Speaker of the House by this point, and was more of a rival than a friend by now.

Oh, yes, the super jealous one, isn't he? Yeah. He pointed out to John's horror that he'd spotted a loophole in the treaty that would allow Spain to keep a large portion of Florida. John Quincy was very embarrassed. This was something he should have spotted. It was that one sentence, Spain can keep this big section of Florida. He just didn't spot it in there.

No, even though it was in red and the font was three times larger than anything else yeah it's fine but he was busy that day he he scanned the first page he flicked to the last page he scanned that and then he just signed yeah we've all been there when you're signing your lease on your house and stuff yeah you know what beats those things yeah wills and stuff. Yeah. He just signed, I think. Bank statements. Exactly. So yeah, John had to scramble to fix his mistake, feeling a little bit silly.

However, with Florida gained, the next problem was expansion and the fact that some new states wanted slavery and some new states did not. Now, we're not going to go into the Missouri Compromise too much because we did that in Monroe's episode. But this problem filled John Quincy's time for quite a while. And I'll quote him here.

I take it for granted that the present question of slavery is a mere preamble, a title page to a great tragic volume. And then the foreboding gong was smashed in the background. Gong. Yeah. Now, despite being very anti-slavery himself, John saw himself as working for

all of the United States and refused to take sides on this issue during the Compromise. Screw morals. Now, eventually, as we saw, the Compromise was made when Missouri and Maine both entered as states at the same time. One a free state, one a slave state.

Also, a dividing line was put on the map to separate north and south. Sensible Samuel shed a tear. Should we be drawing actual lines on maps to divide the country? Should we be doing this? Never works well. Shut up, Samuel. You're ruining our country. So, John saw this compromise for what it was.

It was kicking the slavery problem down the road he was very aware of this this wasn't going to solve things in the long term we'll see that later on I'm sure no wars will happen over it all well in fact I'll quote him here a disillusion at least temporary of the union as now constituted would be necessary to fix this problem yeah he's fully predicting the country will have to fall apart

before this can be fixed. Quite prophetic. Yeah, and that gong's still going in the background here. Either that or he's literally saying something like this every day, just thinking the history books would just cherry-pick the ones that make me sound wise. Yeah, he said completely contrasting things about everything. The next day is like, in the future

we'll use whales to travel around with. Yes. Yes. We should use flying machines powered by pigeons. We'll all have hand-held communication devices. Yeah. Occasionally. Hit on a nugget of gold. Yeah, yeah. Bit like that one. Now despite all this, the general mood of the country

still seemed quite good. Remember, this is the era of good feelings. Yeah. Everyone's like that one. Now, despite all this, the general mood of the country still seemed quite good. Remember, this is the era of good feelings. Everyone's feeling quite happy. After this, the Monroe Doctrine comes along. Again, we're not going to spend time on this either, but let's just say John Quincy was a huge part in drawing up the doctrine that essentially said, hands off Europe. Then Monroe was re-elected.

As we've seen, the Republicans' final victory over the Federalists resulted in their own downfall. As with no common enemy, Monroe's cabinet started to rip itself apart, with each man vying for a better position come the next election. Now, obviously, as Secretary of State, many expected John to go for the top job next time. This was natural. The office had become the stepping stone for presidents, as I mentioned. However, there was one man who was surprising everyone

with his popularity. Someone not even in the cabinet. Who? Andrew Jackson. Oh, the guy that invaded Florida. Yeah. He's suddenly very popular with the people, and he was still making headlines.

As Florida's governor, he had arrested the outgoing Spanish governor, was still making headlines. As Florida's governor, he had arrested the outgoing Spanish governor, completely ignoring diplomatic immunity. Yeah. He's the bolshie one then. Yes, yes he is. Most in the cabinet denounced Jackson's actions once again. John Quincy stayed silent. He refused to enter the fray. Very sensible. Now, that's not the only area he was staying silent in, however, because the elections were drawing closer. John Quincey became very quiet. The highly educated John Quincey was determined to follow the Roman method of campaigning. The higher political class did not campaign.

They reluctantly accepted the post that was thrust upon them because it was their duty to society to serve. Now, whether John simply didn't understand just how Roman elections worked, we don't know. I mean, he more than likely did. He was very highly educated. But if he did, then he chose to ignore the part where the political class had legions of clientele campaigning on their behalf,

bribing, threatening and even killing in order to win their elections. He's also got that romanticised view of it, hasn't he? Yes, exactly. It's not what happened in Rome and it's not going to work here either. So John's campaign method was literally to do nothing at all. I will quote him,

it is not in my opinion that an office is to be either solicited or declined. You don't go for it, but you don't decline it either. Now, to be fair to John, he did have some more recent examples of this than the likes of Cato and Cicero. George Washington had been called upon. He hadn't campaigned, but that just ignored the fact that Washington was a recent war hero. Yeah. And this all ignored the fact that there was a new war hero around at the moment, and there was a lot of popular support behind him. Support behind this uneducated upstart Jackson was growing incredibly quickly. Not only this, his once friend, now rival, Henry Clay, was also gaining support.

It was obvious he was going to run for the job as well. So friends of John wrote to him, urging to do something, anything, that indicates that you actually want this job. Louisa started throwing parties to gain support for her husband. John didn't even turn up to some of them. Oh. Yeah. He's an idiot.

This lack of campaigning soon led many to believe that John had just blown his chances. There's no way you can do it anymore. John himself started to think about moving back to Quincy and inheriting the family farm. Time to retire, he thinks. He's from Quincy? Do you not remember he named Braintree Quincy last year? After his grandfather, Honest. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Yeah, so he's thinking of maybe moving back home, basically The official nominations start to come through Now, parties weren't official at this time So you didn't have parties nominate who was going to run It was a lot more informal and a bit more messy States would put forth a candidate Or groups with aligned interests would put someone forth So Kentucky nominated Clay to run Massachusetts nominated John Quincy put forth a candidate or groups with aligned interests would put someone forth so kentucky

nominated clay to run massachusetts nominated john quincy uh calhoun just nominated himself yeah no one would back him so he just went well i don't care i'm running anyway yeah whilst holding a massive knife and sharpening it yeah shink shink It was in his volcano. Shink. I don't care if no one will back me. I will still become the president. What? Yeah, he soon realised he had literally no support, though, and decided to run for vice president instead,

because no one wanted that job, so he figured he might be able to win that. Mm-hm. Yeah. Anyway, with these official nominations starting to come through, it would appear that John Quincy woke up slightly. He realised he had to do something. Not campaigning, you understand.

No, that's below him. That's below him. But he was going to do something. If he wasn't going to campaign, then what could he do? Bribe. Oh, God, no. No, that's way, way below him. Persuade.

Well, you're more onto it there. He would throw a ball in honour of Andrew Jackson. Ooh. Now, John Quincy did not like Jackson at all. In fact, he called him, and I quote, a barbarian and a savage who could scarcely spell his own name. Yeah. But that could backfire in some ways, couldn't it? Because it either highlights more how good Jackson is,

or it could go, oh, isn't John Quincy magnanimous? Well, there was more to the plan than just throwing the ball. The plan was to woo... Kill him, poison the punch. No, not quite. The plan was to woo Andrew Jackson and offer for Jackson to become John's vice president. Ooh, OK.

Yeah. Now, this ball was a huge affair. Over 1,000 people attended. John Quincy had the foresight to put new support beams underneath his ballroom just to support the sheer amount of people who turned up. Banners with, Welcome the Hero of New Orleans was put up as well.

This was a big event. Andrew Jackson arrived. He gave a toast to his hosts. It looked to many as if a new political union had formed. A few days later, it came out that Tennessee had nominated Jackson to run for president. Yeah. Yeah. Backfiring.

Well, yeah, it just didn't work at all. Support for Jackson was still surging, and John despaired. Eventually, the votes started to come in. John fully expecting to lose. And he did. Or at least the popular vote. 153,000 votes for Jackson, 114,000 votes for John, and less than 50 for all the other candidates. for John and less than 50 for all the other candidates. That's 50,000, not just 50. That would have been a bit sad. But still, an obvious victory for Jackson there. Yeah, 40,000 more. If that's how elections worked in America, obviously they don't work that way. So it's not really power of the people then, is it? It's not really democracy either. If you get

into nitty gritty, it's all the people's vote that counts. Let's go into it. Well, it's not really democracy, if you're getting to nitty gritty. It's not the people's vote that counts. Let's go into it. Well, the Constitution had done its job. The previous generation, the founding fathers, had feared the rise of a populist candidate. You didn't want just any old riffraff becoming president after all, did you? No. No. Or more to point, you didn't want a rise of a Saturninus or a Clodius.

Yeah. Yeah. Populist from Roman history, for those who haven't listened to our other podcast. Yeah, the Roman-obsessed founding fathers were very aware that in their republic, you could get these populist rulers just popping up. So to try and stop this, they set up their system of electoral colleges. And it did its job. Despite the clear win for Jackson in terms of popular vote, no one had a majority of the electoral college. So the choice would go

to the House of Representatives, which we have seen before. Each state would cast one vote. Now, the system meant that the men who were already in charge would get the final say. This system, when devised, was created with the idea in charge would get the final say. This system, when devised, was created with the idea that there would always be several candidates. So it would be very hard for one candidate to get a majority of the electoral college. So it was quite likely that the House of Representatives would end up choosing the president quite often. So the House of Representatives would decide who was president fairly often. This the House of Representatives would decide who was president fairly often. This kept stability in the government. Now, this is hardly fully democratic, of course, but for its day, it wasn't too bad. Yeah, I get why the system is in place. Yeah.

Of course, once US politics becomes fully entrenched in a two-party system, where you only have two real candidates each time. This system doesn't work so well. The system was set up to be unfair in favour of the ruling class, whereas nowadays it just doesn't benefit anyone. In fact, you could argue it just makes elections non-representative and arguably makes it even easier for a populist to win the vote. Does it? Any examples of that? makes it even easier for a populist to win the vote. Does it? Any examples of that? I don't know, I honestly couldn't say. But yeah, you can see why they set it up this way. Yes. And in this election with John Quincy and Andrew Jackson, it did exactly what the founding fathers designed it to do.

Yeah. It stopped someone with popular support from nowhere suddenly rising up and taking power. So it's been effective in this case. Yeah, I mean, you could argue it's completely unfair and it's bad democracy, but it is what it was designed to do. So it has worked. So anyway, the House had to decide who was going to be president. The choice was between three men, John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson and Henry Clay, who would come in third.

Shortly after this was announced, Clay went to see John. Yes, they had been rivals for a while, but they'd also been friends, and no one wanted to see this uneducated soldier in charge. Apart from the 153,000 votes. They don't count though, do they? No, it's not democracy, dammit. Yeah. So, Clay announced he was willing to back John Quincy, or step out of the race. Oh. Yeah. Those in the House that supported Clay threw their weight behind John Quincy. Equally, some of those in the House that came from overwhelmingly Jackson-supporting states also supported John Quincy. Just because most people in the state wanted Jackson didn't mean that your man in Congress wanted Jackson.

I guess he's so much of an outsider, like so much of an unknown entity. Yeah, people were nervous. Yeah. So the vote took place. John Quincy won and became the sixth president. You can imagine how Andrew Jackson's feeling about this. A bit gutted, but

you know. He was not known for keeping his temper. Ah. No. Things were tense for a while. Now, I think at this time, it's very easy to think of politics being a bit like today's politics. Yeah. But I think it's more realistic to think along the lines. Imagine if I've just told you this story in our other podcast. Yeah. So imagine this was taking place in the Roman Republic. All of death. Yeah. I think there was a very real fear that this was going to lead to actual deaths and riots.

Yes. Don't think of this as modern day. This is still, yes, it's a couple of hundred years ago, but that's a long time ago. I guess it would be easy for Jackson to rally up support and just storm. Well, that was the problem. And that was what people feared. I mean, don't forget, not long before, the vice president had shot a man and then tried to start his own country. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. This is still a very new country and things are a bit dicey still. Anyway, they try and continue. Everyone's a bit nervous, but Monroe howled a ball in celebration for the president-elect. Everyone turned up, who was everyone. Everyone's having fun, until the doors swing open. There is none other than a very severe-looking Andrew Jackson with his pistols at his side. Ah.

Everyone watched as he scanned the room. Don't move. He can't see you as long as you stay still. He's like a T-Rex. A what? Gee, I don't know. Yeah, he scanned the room until he saw John Quincy and then strode towards him.

Say cheese, Quincy, say cheese. Cheese, cheese, cheese. Keep smiling. Andrew held out his hand with a warm smile and congratulated John Quincy on his victory. Oh. Everyone went, oh. And so begins the presidency of John Quincy.

Now, it's a good job we're covering the lives of the presidents, as in the whole life of the presidents. Yeah. Because if we were just doing their presidency, there really would not be much to say whatsoever. Really? No. I mean, we'll go over it, but this will be a short section.

All right. Remember his father's vice presidency and how little he did there? Yeah. Yeah. Runs the family, though. Well, first thing John Quincy does is appoint his Secretary of State. Yeah. Have a guess who he appoints.

Clay. Oh, yes. Straight away, he names Clay as his Secretary of State. Now, this was not a smart move. I guess most people would assume Jackson. Well, everyone saw this for what it was. Clay had supported John Quincy in the vote. He had obviously done that in return for the Secretary of State post. Jackson started shouting to his followers, was there ever witnessed such bare-faced corruption in any country

before? I'd like to think sensible Samuel at that point put his hand up and went, yeah, definitely. We've seen a lot worse than this. Actually, it's not that bad, to be honest. It's just political wrangling. Oh, put your pistol away. Still, a lot of people very unhappy. Soon enough, this became known as the corrupt bargain. Whoa.

This dominates John Quincy's rule. Oh, does it? Yeah. That's a shame. Still, perhaps a good inauguration speech would set the correct tone, make all this disappear. Oh, does it? Yeah. That's a shame. Still, perhaps a good inauguration speech would set the correct tone. Make all this disappear. Oh dear. Well, he

started well enough. He talked about the happiness of the people, etc. etc. But then he started mentioning things like the government improving the infrastructure of the country. Yeah. Again, mindset at the time and also mindset of Americans rather than in this country. We certainly wouldn't bat an eyelid on this.

But at the time. What's wrong with our country? We've worked hard to get it where it is. He said it's not good enough. Well, it's more this sounds like the federal government trying to get power. This is the state's job. This is not the federal government trying to get power. Oh. This is the state's job. Yeah. This is not the federal government's job.

Of course, yeah. Yeah. So people started muttering about that. But then he started comparing his visions for the country to roads and aqueducts from ancient Rome. Europe. Yeah. He was high-fiving himself with every single Roman reference. This was brilliant, he thought.

But it was lost on most of the crowd. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Most people didn't care about the victories of Rome. They also did not care for the idea of the federal government telling them what to do. With an underwhelming speech done, he then set about forming his cabinet. John Quincy refused to put men who automatically would support him in his cabinet. He was above such petty things. So he ended

up with a cabinet much like Monroe had. Everyone out for themselves. Ah, yeah. Fractured. Yeah, did not work as a team. However, the days of single-party government was coming to its inevitable end. Yeah. of single-party government was coming to its inevitable end. The Republican Party, the only party left, starts to split. Now, as ever, this didn't happen overnight, and this is a vast oversimplification,

but just to give you an overview of what's happening here, those in the Republican Party that feared that the men in charge of the party had essentially become Federalists, with all this talk about government control. So they were federalists in all but name. And these people who weren't happy with that started to split from the party and called themselves Democrats. That is the donkey party of today. Oh. Oh, so this is literally the forming of the...

Yes, this is the formation of modern Democrats. Although they're very different politically back in this time, as we'll see as the next few episodes go on. Anyway, this movement was behind the likes of Andrew Jackson and Van Buren, who is around at this time, by the way. But we'll talk about him a lot more in the future when he has his own episode. Oh, he was president. Yeah. Good old American name. Yes.

Yeah. Well, we'll talk about that in his episode. Dutch. Yes, it is. Oh, look at me go. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about that in his episode. Yes, it is. Oh, look at me go. Yeah, look at you go. Anyway, so these new Democrats were supporting the likes of Jackson and Van Buren. The opposing faction, led by the likes of Clay, were becoming known as the Whig Party.

Oh, the British Whigs. Yeah, yeah. Harrison. Yeah. They're not quite the same politically, but that's certainly where they're getting their name from. This is where the old Federalists end up. Because obviously just because the Federalist Party collapses doesn't mean all those people disappear. No.

So the Whigs are pretty much taking over where the Federalists left off. It's not quite the same, though, because it's also got many of the leading Republicans. off. It's not quite the same though because it's also got many of the leading Republicans. So the Whigs are the Clay-style Republicans plus the Federalists, whereas the Democrats are more of the Andrew Jackson-style Republicans. The Democrats are more grassroots going back to what Jefferson saw the party as. So we're in our next era of politics here. We're starting to get Democrats and Whigs. It hasn't quite happened yet, but that's generally what's going to be happening. So we now come to the most notable part of John Quincy's presidency. One day, John Quincy and his valet rowed out into the Potomac River.

The idea was to go for a swim. Row out, John Quincy would then strip and jump into the river and then swim back. However, as they were rowing out, the boat sprung a leak and there was nothing on board to scoop the water out. John Quincy dived into the water fully clothed. And I quote here,

the loose sleeves of my shirt filled with water and hung like two 56 pound weights on my arms. Yeah, but a very precise measurement there. Would that be a problem? All the clothes are dragging him down. It's heavy. You wore a lot of clothes back then, so...

Yeah, he's been dragged down. Oh, dear. I'd like to think, as the water was filling his lungs, he was like 57 pounds, 55 pounds. I'm going to say 56. Let's go for a mean average. 56 pounds. Yeah.

Anyway, he struggles out of his clothes. It's going to get dragged under unless he completely strips. So he gets out of his clothes and he swims naked for the shore. If he hoped to get out of this whole situation without being noticed, he was to be very disappointed. Soon everyone was talking about the image of the President of the United States emerging like a drowned rat, naked, from the Potomac River. Oh dear. Yeah. He was widely mocked for quite some time. Because he had to save his own life?

Yeah. That's not fair. It's not really fair, but he wasn't coming across as presidential material. No, fair enough. Let's just say that. Still, he was undeterred. He was going to do some good for this country. He wanted to see the United States rise like Europe. And to do that, the US needed to do more of everything, really. We needed more science.

We need more arts. We need more infrastructure. We need more culture. We're a bit backwards over here, guys. I know you guys don't see it, but I've been to Europe. We need more things. Unfortunately, though, he could never really get this message across properly. When discussing the need for astronomical observatories, for instance,

he referred to them as lighthouses for the sky. He just starts sounding a bit crazy. Yeah, again, he was very widely mocked by a population that simply wanted to know where their next meal was coming from. What do you mean, Lighthouses for the Sky? I guess he's seen as, in a way, a bit ahead of his time, isn't he? Yes. Maybe a bit too far ahead.

Yeah, very much so. If he was the president in 50 years' time, then I imagine he would have gone down very well. Prioritise a bit more. Yeah, he wanted to push the United States forward quickly, but a bit too quickly for everyone else's liking. Oh, shame in a way. Meanwhile, Andrew Jackson was doing things like

loudly calling for the end of debtors' prisons, citing examples of blind old men being held and forced to work due to a pittance of a debt. I mean, these were tiny small debts and you could just be thrown in prison for them. They were really disliked. And Andrew Jackson realised this and fought for this. And in comparison, you've got the president talking about lighthouses for the sky. Yeah, he was just seen as completely out of touch.

John becomes very depressed. It was a blow, therefore, when news came through that his father had died on the same day as Jefferson. John mourns, and the rest of his presidency continues with the growing realisation that most people wanted someone else doing his job. Sure enough, Andrew Jackson swept the next election away, gaining the popular vote, and more importantly, gaining 178 electoral votes to John's 83. Wow. Yeah. And this is where we pretty much usually end things,

because it's the end of his presidency. And we are, but John is unusual for a president because he then continued in politics. Oh. Yeah. He saw being the president as a bit of a blip really. Let's ignore that, I want to continue doing what I was doing before. Well, he was a fantastic Secretary of State. Yeah, he did a good job there. So we're not going to go into a huge amount of detail, we'll just cover the highlights of his post-presidential career, because we usually do cut it off at this point. From 1831, he then served in Congress for 17 consecutive years. Wow.

Bearing in mind, he's in his 60s when he starts this, so he's starting to get on. He chaired several committees in Congress over this time. He used his prestige to push the anti-slavery movement over the next couple of decades, or at least almost decades. This really becomes his thing after this. Now, again, we can't go into the details here. We'll look at this more as we come across it in future.

But to give you the highlights, Congress introduced a gag rule that meant that the House could not discuss slavery petitions. Just, we can't talk about this anymore. meant that the House could not discuss slavery petitions. Just, we can't talk about this anymore. John spends his time finding ways around the gag rule, infuriating his summon opponents. He would read out prayers that people had written. Not petitions, you understand.

This is just a prayer. It just happens to mention slavery a lot. Yeah. At one point, he openly violated the gag rule, knowing that he'd be pulled up on it. But as soon as he was, he asked to defend his actions formally. Then, because he was defending his actions, he was able to discuss slavery as much as he wanted to. He made it very clear that if he was censured, he would just resign, run for office again, and then come straight back.

He became a real thorn in the side of pro-slavery factions. Not only that, he was also defending revolting slaves in the Supreme Court and won. So he's doing a good job here. He did some good work after his presidency. Then in 1846, at the age of 78, he suffered a stroke and was partially paralysed. Still, he made a good recovery and a few later, he entered Congress to a standing ovation. He had liked them, though. Yeah, I mean, at this point, he's the old man who dined with Washington. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, to most people, he's becoming pretty much an old hero. He was born before the Revolutionary War. Yeah, just his age and experience will have earned him a lot of prestige by this point. Yeah, just his age and experience will have earned him a lot of prestige by this point. Anyway, a couple of years later, a vote took place linked to the recent Mexican-American War, a war that John had strongly opposed. John was the third on the roll call. Obviously, Adams is near the start of the alphabet.

John was happily shouting no over the eyes of those before him. He'd become a bit of a curmudgeon by the sounds of things. And then, when it came to his name, he went to stand up. He slumped to his left and was caught by the man next to him. A couch was dragged onto the floor of Congress. John Quincy lay down and said, I quote, this is the end of the earth, but I am composed. Then he slipped into a coma. He lay on a couch in the Capitol building for two days with Louisa by his side, and then died. Oh.

There you go, and that's the end of John Quincy. I ended up really liking him at the end. Yeah? Was it the fact that he was anti-slavery? It helps. Yeah, it does, yeah. It does. Yeah, no, he definitely did some

good work in those last 17 years, which we kind of brushed over, which is a shame. And we can't rank him for either. I don't know. It's not his presidency. Yeah, but we rank him on his whole life. I think we can. Yeah, right. It's just a shame there just isn't really time to go through post-presidential lives.

But if I wanted to find out more about his post-presidential life, where would I find that information, Rob? Go and read some books, I suppose. No, I've got to read. Anyway, shall we rate him? Hmm. Statesmanship! Okay, he was clearly a very good statesman when he was an ambassador.

Yes. He not only did his job as an ambassador, but he became friends with the King of Prussia, the Tsar of Russia, the Tsar of Russia, the Foreign Secretary of Britain, and he used all of these friendships to help his country. Yeah. Yeah, he wasn't just a diplomat, he was a bloody good one. Yeah.

He freed the prisoners in Denmark, for example. He made deals that helped Britain and the US get on a lot better than they were before. He helped spread peace through diplomatic channels. Far more than Jefferson or Monroe, and definitely more than his father, John Quincy increased other countries' estimation of the United States on a global scene. That is important for the young country. We have not come across a more impressive foreign diplomat in this series, I don't think. I'd agree with that. Then, as Secretary of State, he used all of these connections

and did a very good job. But then he became President. Yeah. Yeah. He was just far too removed from the everyman. He was perfect for hobnobbing with the likes of the King of Prussia. Yeah. He could tell witty stories about Cicero to the Tsar of Russia.

But he was not well suited to helping out Chad and Stacey on a farm in Pennsylvania. He could tell witty stories about Cicero to the Tsar of Russia. But he was not well suited to helping out Chad and Stacey on a farm in Pennsylvania. No, he hadn't prioritised the needs of the people in his own country. Yeah, Chad and Stacey being popular names back then, I think. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, so that's a shame. But then he became an elderly statesman in Congress, fighting against the injustice of slavery, where many opposed him and wanted to silence him.

He refused to shut up. He kept using those loopholes in a very clever way. Yeah, yeah. He knew what he was doing and became a bit of a hero for the anti-slavery movement. So generally very good, apart from when he was president. Yeah. So it's an interesting one to to judge i guess well he wasn't seen as a statesman but when he was president he was just mocked and yeah you get the feeling that everyone in europe would have seen him as a brilliant statesman

at home he just wasn't particularly well liked because let's not forget like i missed this out he didn't particularly get on well with people when he was in the Senate. No. No. Well, he'd made so many enemies previously. Yeah, he just wasn't... Annoying. He was much better when he was abroad.

Yeah. So I don't think I can go too high, because he does mess things up quite a bit. But also, he helps the US grow so much. Oh, he tried. But he does with all the deals and everything. Oh, no, he does do a good job there. That's a good point.

I don't know. I think a seven is not a 10. I was literally about to say that. I don't think I can go into the high numbers, but he deserves better than half marks. Yeah, honestly, it was seven. 14. Disgrace, Giz.

He was naked once. Disgrace. Yeah, he totally was. There's not much here, as you won't be shocked to learn. He was a complete snob throughout his entire life. Yeah, he got that feeling, didn't he? He genuinely felt that the likes of Jackson were literally inferior to him. Yeah.

That's not really on. No. But, yeah. He was clearly not the best husband in the world. There were several times where him and Louisa were really struggling. But then at the same time, he doesn't come across as a particularly bad husband. It's just... A bit thoughtless.

Yeah, but then, for the times, maybe that was normal. No political scandals. If our world speculations are correct from last time he did sleep with half of stockholm yeah but uh we might have made that up so i think it's um heavily implied that he got to know a lot of women possibly just one but we're gonna say most yes yes so about half of half of sweden now are related to Quincy Adams. The land of Quincy. Yeah, there's really not much there, is there?

One. Yeah, I'm going to give him one point for having a good time in Stockholm. Yeah. That's two. Silver screen. Right, this is his round. So, definitely not a film. This is HBO miniseries.

Yes. Are you ready? Go. It opens with seeing the Battle of Bunker Hill. Yes. Or Breed's Hill, as we're going to rename it. It's a small boy watching that. That's how it just starts, with the battle. Simmer, eating popcorn, watching it.

Well, no, just the battle. That's all you see. And then it pans around and you just see a little boy with the flames reflecting in his eyes. Look of horror. And then slowly you see a hand with a bit of popcorn go into his mouth. Crunch, crunch. Yeah. So that's how it opens.

Yeah. Then his trek through Europe, having a good time in Stockholm, then going back home, being rejected by Harvard, but then getting in, then being chosen to go back to Europe, his marriage in London. Yeah.

Then he becomes friends with the King of Prussia then he works in Congress then off to Russia becomes friends with the Tsar Napoleon invades then he and Louisa trek through war-torn Europe separately imagine that episode very desolate episode

yeah yeah it's like that um the Band of Brothers episode where in that icy field yeah exactly just trying to survive. Then it's back to the US, the rise of Andrew Jackson. Him dealing with Clay to get the presidency and the votes. Then the skinny dipping scene.

Then retiring in shame. Saucy. Then fighting slavery in Congress as he gets older and more frail. And then, at the very end, literally dying on the floor of the Capitol building. Nay! Yeah, I mean, that's a brilliant death. The world is ending. And then as an added bonus, right, because near the start of the series,

you've got a scene with him dining with an aging Washington. Yeah. Well, in the very last scene, he dies and it pans across the floor of Congress and you see a young Abraham Lincoln looking a bit shocked. Well, in the very last scene, he dies and it pans across the floor of Congress and you see a young Abraham Lincoln looking a bit shocked. Ooh. Yes. With hat and beard.

Oh, yeah. That's how you know it's him. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I mean, it's a very good story, this. I mean, his presidency wasn't great, but what a life. Yeah. That was an amazing life he had. If I were to be any of the presidents and live their life, I think I'd choose his so life. Yeah. That was an amazing life he had. If I were to be any of the presidents and live their life,

I think I'd choose his so far. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. Nothing too bad happened and a lot of good happened. You always said you liked Sweden. Now I know why. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a very compelling mini-series.

I'm giving this one four marks. I'm very impressed with it. I'm not giving it four marks for I'm very impressed with it. I'm not giving it four marks. I want him to be in a battle. Okay. That's the only way I'll give it. If he got injured or something, that's the only way I'll give him four marks. I'll give him nine. Okay. You can give him ten. He might have stubbed his toe at some point. No, it's not enough. Not good enough. Right. Okay. A full-on arm falling off sort of thing. Right. Okay. A bullet in his trachea fair enough 19 19 good score good score okay here is his portrait oh recognize it from another one that we've done yeah the background

because i'm just gonna i'm showing jamie yeah i'm showing jamie john quincy's portrait i'm now going to just show him washington's portrait they're'm now going to just show him Washington's portrait. They're the same. It's pretty much identical. He's sitting on what looks like an almost identical chair next to an almost identical table. The red sash in the background, the Roman columns. You've got a lot of Roman imagery yet again. He's got his arm outstretched in exactly the same way

yet again as if to say take a look at this donkey washington's hand as well yeah that looks like a picture of washington that he's got his hand on he's clearly portraying himself as washington's successor and pretty impressive uh sideburns well yeah then we focus on him i mean he's got no hair on top by this point but they are some good sideburns. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Fashion's changed slightly since Washington's day. The collars have got a bit shorter and stiffer.

More trousery rather than tights. Yeah, definitely. But his resemblance to Washington is striking. Yes. Yeah, he looks nothing like him, but the pose and the imagery around him. That's a political message there, isn't it? Yeah. After a few just black backgrounds, it's quite nice to get a bit more of a background there.

Do you know? I think. I mean, he sort of looks how you imagine. He's very generic looking, though. I mean, good sideburns. Nothing too striking. I mean, maybe a few points for the copy or plagiarism for Washington's. Six. Yeah. No, I'm going to go slightly higher. I'm going to go seven. I quite like this one, but it's

not up there. So that is a score of 3.25 for canvas ability. Bonus! Okay, bonus points. Ooh, does not do well here. We only had one term. He only had one term, so that's one point there. Assassination. No one tried to kill him. Yeah. Unless, can we say the valet on the boat deliberately tried to sink the boat? I think we'd be grabbing at straws. I think so, yeah. So no points for assassination.

Election, zero. Because he didn't win the popular vote, did he? He won, but he lost the popular vote So you get no points at all Sorry Quincy So that's only one point in the bonus rounds That's a total score of 35.25

More than Munro That is actually a very impressive score Yeah That is not far off George Washington Who scored 37 And it beats everyone else. I guess he's such a good statesman. Yeah.

And his silver screen, his story's so good. Yeah, he's just had a fantastically interesting life. Yeah. He made a good statesman, and he didn't cause much scandal. No. Yeah. He was a useless president. Oh, yeah.

But we're not judging on how good you were as a president We're judging you on Your life We'll strip you down to your bones Yeah exactly So this is John Quincy's chance to shine this podcast Because he is in second place at the moment Yeah

Well done John But is he an American or American't? American or American't? My good thing is yes. Yeah, I see. I'm debating this one. I don't know. Is he?

Great story. It is a great story. The silver screen is really good. He was a great statesman. Terrible president, but the rest of it was wonderful. He helped put the USA on the map. You just know he would have been a good president if he was a president

100 years later. Yeah. Forward thinking. Yeah. He was forward thinking. He did do a lot for his young country. Not whilst he was president, but... He stopped the impressments. He got great trade deals with Britain, so they opened up the whole world to them now as well,

including India. You got a country like russia willing to argue on their behalf yes um yeah it's it's impressive stuff and but i don't know anti-slavery as well he fought yeah no that's a good point that stuff he did in congress afterwards the things he was saying probably helped the Civil War start. Yeah. But you predict it. Yes. Yeah. Quite conscious of the fact that we've only not given it to one person so far. And that's John Adams.

Yeah. That doesn't matter, though. It's based on them, isn't it? Yeah. It's like we're going to have to say no to someone at some point. Oh, we will. Yeah. Fine. If you want it, I'll go along with it.

I want it, Rob. You want it i want it rob you want it okay then well done john quincy then yes you have you are an american yay yeah um yeah i think you have done better there than most people would have expected you to yeah i think if you yeah if you focus it will boil it all down to his presidency awful yeah this this is not what this podcast is about it's the lives of the presidency yes and his pre-presidential life and his post-presidential life is brilliant yeah okay then so well done you got it yeah right well thank you very much for listening to this episode of american presidents totalus rancium um next time andrew jackson andrew jackson sounds intriguing I'm only halfway through my

research yeah yes he is brilliant but I don't know when that one's going to be released because you're going on holiday yeah go to holiday yes you're off to Australia and places on that side of the globe yeah yeah we are trying to cram episodes in so we don't miss a release schedule slot, but we might do. Plus we've got an interesting different style episode potentially coming up soon. So that might come at some point.

So just bear with us if our schedule goes off slightly in the next couple of weeks, but hopefully you won't notice a change. No. Yeah. Okay. So thank you very much for listening. Please leave reviews on iTunes.

You can download us in all the usual places. All that needs to be said is... Goodbye. Goodbye. There you go. We've changed the signatures around. Are you happy now? Can we get this thing signed? Well, let me have a quick... Well, quite frankly, no.

I beg your pardon? The font, the writing, it's all off. It's far too big. I asked for size 12, not size 14. This is size 12, John. This's far too big. I asked for size 12, not size 14. This is size 12, John. This is not size 12. This is size 12. They look the same.

It's not the same. This is an insult. It needs to be changed. Sorry, how is this an insult exactly? It's an insult to the United States of America. Change it or I will not sign. Timothy, go and write it up again. No, I don't care how long it takes. Just get it done. We'll meet back here in two, three, three

hours. Happy now? Can we get this thing signed? Right way round. Ah, correct font size it. The colour of the parchment. It's the same as last time, John. I asked for cream-coloured parchment, not creme brulee. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. This is darker than I was for. It's the same. It's the same paper we've been using all week. It's far too dark. You can tell it's been left in the sun.

It's been blotted. It's been damaged. Timothy, Timothy, do it again. Do it again. I should jolly well hope so. There. Right. Are we done now? Write paper, correct size font, signatures the right way round. Let me have a look. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Ah, wonderful. I'm happy to sign. Seriously?

Yes. More than happy. You're going to sign now? I'm going to sign this patent. Pass me a quill? Right. Fantastic. Here you go.

Let's get this signed. Here's your quill. This quill? Ah. This is only an eight-inch quill. I require a nine-and-a-half-inch quill. I beg your pardon? A nine-and-a-half-inch quill. Ah, this is only an eight-inch quill. I require a nine-and-a-half-inch quill. I beg your pardon? A nine-and-a-half-inch quill. It's the American way. This is an insult to the United States.

I shall not sign this parchment. Have it rewritten with a new quill. Here, here, here is another quill. I've chopped the end off. It's shorter. You happy now? No, it needs to be longer. It needs another inch and a half. Oh, my. Right, OK, fine. Look, look, look. Timothy's got a spare one. What'd this one do? I've spit ink all over this parchment. Rewrite it. Here.

Here's your parchment. Here's your treaty. Here's your sodding quill. Sign the damn thing. Name's the right way round. Parchment, correct colour. Font, appropriate. Let me get my ruler.

One and a half inch, that's fantastic. Let me see. Dip it into the ink. Ah. Is this midnight black ink, or is it velvet black ink? Oh, God.