American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 7.2 Andrew Jackson

Episode Date: September 15, 2018

After New Orleans, Jackson finds himself one of the most popular men in the country. He has a head full of idea as to how the country should be run, and it starts with those in power not being in power any more. What does this mean for the Republic? Find out as we rate Andrew Jackson, one of the most controversial presidents.

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Andrew Jackson part two. Hello and welcome to American President Totalis Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is episode 7.2, Andrew Jackson. Man with the guns. Yes. So we left Jackson on the victory field of New Orleans. We did. We did. He's been waiting there for five weeks for us to continue.

So finally. He's been waiting there for five weeks for us to continue. So finally! He's not happy. I guess in the early 1800s, you know, five weeks is nothing. That's true. Things move slowly. His forces, the ragtag army comprising of all sorts of people, such as US citizens, French people,

Spanish people, freed slaves, pirates, just about anyone who could pick up a gun, basically. Yeah. That was his army, and they had defeated the might of the British army. Right. Yeah. Impressive stuff.

Yeah. Now, we have seen how this victory was enough for the country to convince themselves that they had, in fact, won the war. Yeah. When it was quite clearly a stalemate. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't matter. They won the last battle. That makes it. So they won the war. Yeah. When it was quite clearly a stalemate. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't matter. They won the last battle. That makes it. So they won the war. Yeah. Can't fault the logic. No.

So Jackson becomes a war hero. Oh, good. He'd love that. Oh, he would. He would. But before we continue, let's just have a quick look at Jackson himself, shall we? Yeah. Physically. Oh, yeah. Well, he's got no clothes on.

Well, put some clothes on him, then. Okay, there we go. There we go, right. Well, a lot of paintings portray Jackson as a very tall, upright, forceful man. A bit thin, but starey. But a hero, you know, taller than average. Yeah, exactly.

But in reality, by this time, he was starting to fall apart. Was he? Yeah, well, his left arm was still not working properly after the fight with the Bentons. Do you remember he got shot in the arm? Yeah. Yeah, in a scuffle by a hotel. Yeah, so his right arm wasn't quite right. He still struggled to get on a horse.

He even struggled to open books on his own, apparently. That's embarrassing. That is embarrassing. Must have been big books. Yeah. Heavy books. Well, there's little tiny ones that you can barely get your thoughts into. Oh, actually, no, they're really tricky, aren't they? Yeah. Probably small little books then. Yeah. Ones you get in gift shops.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. However, at least the arm was on the mend. I mean, it wasn't good, but you could see it getting better, albeit slowly. What was paining him more than anything else was on the mend. I mean, it wasn't good, but you could see it getting better, albeit slowly. What was paining him more than anything else was his bowels. Oh, yes. He would complain of going months on end

of suffering from bouts of dysentery. Oh, dysentery's horrible. Yeah. I've heard how bad that is. Yeah. It's like diarrhea, but faster and longer. More soupy. It just doesn't stop. Not good, basically. People die very quickly from Yeah. It's like diarrhea but faster and longer. More soupy. It just doesn't stop. Not good, basically. People die very quickly

from it, just from dehydration. Yes. Literally, it's like a hose. Oh, God. Yeah. And you're trying

to get around commanding men on a horse. Ooh. Splash, splash zone. Yeah. Not good.

Not good at all. So he was suffering from that. On top of this, he's got two bullets still lodged in him, remember? Both of them giving off slow toxins into his body. It's going to be lead, so that's not good. Yeah, exactly. I mean, nothing bad enough to kill him,

but it's going to be weakening his immune system. Is it like that ridiculous Bond film where the villain got a bullet in his head and it's slowly still moving through his head? It actually kills him. Was it a bit like that? It was just like that. Slowly's slowly still moving through his head. It actually kills him. It was a bit like that. It was just like that. Slowly moving up his arm through his neck. Well, remember one of them in the jewel,

like embedded... In the jewels? Oh, in the jewels. Yeah, embedded into his chest bone. Yeah. Yeah. Not nice. No.

So, yeah, they're still in him, and they're not going to be doing him any good. Lots of aches, lots of pains. Several decades after his death, apparently a study was conducted on a lock of his hair that they found, like you do, and they discovered that his blood contained lead traces many times higher than what was normal in a human. Yeah. So he's a bit leady. Yeah.

Not good. Imagine trying to get through the airport in those little scanner-y things. It was a nightmare. Every time he was trying to get home. Yeah. Anything to declare, I've got bullets in me. Yeah, are you carrying any bullets or firearms? Well, yes.

Yeah. Yeah, it was a pain. So, yeah, in this day and age, with the medical treatment like it was, it's more than likely that Andrew was in constant pain by this point in his life, leading some historians to speculate that maybe this is why he was quite often very angry. Well, it would put you in a bad mood, wouldn't it? Yeah, maybe he was just a bit like House. Oh, McCain, yeah.

Yeah, maybe he was a bit like that. Maybe, though, he was just an angry man. Well, from everything we've learned about his childhood and growing up, I think he's just an angry man. Yeah, quite possibly. So, anyway, it's in this physical state that Jackson receives word that the war was over.

A while later, he and Rachel, who had come down to New Orleans, head back to Nashville. Rachel's his wife. Yes. Remember, there was a bit of scandal there because he ran away with her and she was still married. Yeah. Yeah, that will come back.

Anyway, they're heading back home. The whole journey was filled with people cheering his passage. As in him coming through the village. Yeah, that's what I assumed. It wasn't the dysentery. Yay! Yay! Slow motion, like a hose. I see there's like sexy adverts

with women washing cars and spraying water. It's like that with soldiers. Just like that, yeah. Cleaning their horses. Splash. Slightly brown, turgid water. Just like that. That was the journey home. It's fine. It speeded things up, though. Mmm. Just like that. That was the journey home.

It's fine. It speeded things up, though. Yeah, that's true. That's why he stopped having a white horse as well. Yes, exactly. It was just embarrassing. One thing he did realise on this journey was he was quite popular now. Yeah, I mean, obviously, his men had been celebrating him for quite some time,

but it became very obvious that the general man and woman in America were now seeing him as a hero. They were coming out to cheer him as he passed. That's good. Yeah. So, him and Rachel, they get home and settle down on their plantation. Jackson planning to retire from public service, like they always do. However, it was not long before he's received a letter from Washington.

Oh, he's still alive. No, no. We're still close enough that that's slightly confusing, isn't it? Yeah. The Capitol. Oh, right. Yes, a letter from the new War Secretary, a man named Dallas. Dallas?

Yeah. Oh. It's a good name, isn't it? It's a good American name. Oh, he's got to be wearing a white suit with a massive hat. Yes. And boots. He was. Dallas. Yeah. Cigars all the time. Yeah. Unfortunately, this is the only point he's got to be wearing a white suit with a massive hat. Yes. And boots. That's Dallas.

Cigars all the time. Unfortunately, this is the only point he's in the story, so make the most of that image. Smoking cigars right now is a letter. Yeah. Dallas was sorry to interrupt Jackson, but there were a couple of things that needed clearing up about New Orleans.

One or two queries. Yeah. You see, Jackson, after the battle, I mean, there's this rumour, and I'm sure it's nothing, but we just want it cleared up. Yeah, there's this rumour that you refused to release the city from martial law.

And okay, fair enough, you hadn't received official word yet that the war was over, so maybe that's sensible. But then there's also a rumour that those in charge of the city ordered you to lift the martial law and in fact a judge of the united states of america ordered you to lift martial law and um you exiled that judge just chucked him out the city

uh it's it's just a bit dodgy yeah um look good. Yeah, so could we perhaps have a chat about this? Was the letter. Now, obviously, those high up in Washington did not want to annoy this new war hero. No. But it didn't look good. It's something that'll come out to bite you in the bum. Yeah, it was something they wanted to sort out. So Jackson replies that he would head to the capital to defend his actions in person.

So off he goes again, travelling through the country. Again, through crowds and cheers. On the way to Washington, he attended a dinner where an elderly Thomas Jefferson toasted him and congratulated him on the war effort. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Then he continued a bit more, visited Mount Vernon. Yep. George wasn't in. Oh, that's a shame Then he continued a bit more, visited Mount Vernon. Yep.

George wasn't in. Oh. It was a shame. And then he reaches the capital. And he put the minds of Madison and Monroe at rest. Jackson was not looking to disrupt the planned succession, which was for Monroe to become the next president. Yeah. So, I mean, that was all lined

up, and Jackson wasn't going to cause trouble. So, to keep Jackson happy, the new Secretary of War, a man named Crawford, Sir Dallas has already gone, so he's hung up his hat. Crawford met with Jackson to discuss possible futures. One of these involved a plan of Jackson being in charge of the southern troops in America. You can look after the southern border, Jackson. It was also made clear that all this nasty stuff to do with ignoring the directions of a judge in New Orleans, that could just go away. Yeah, that never happened. Yeah, let's just... What judge? Yeah. I don't remember a judge. Do you, Jackson? No. Exactly. So, essentially, Jackson was given a nice job, and let's pretend any pleasantness didn't happen.

Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. And just leave the capital now, please. You're freaking out the mates. So, Jackson heads home, reassured that he was now one of the most popular and powerful men in the entire nation.

He was in command of the armies on the southern border, and he conducted his work mostly from home to begin with. So he's back in Tennessee. Work from home, that's the dream, isn't it? Oh, but it's a problem, though, knowing when to shut off. Oh, that's true, yeah. It's like, he was probably there. It reaches about six in the evening.

He knows he should stop, but there's another email coming in. His food's on the table getting cold, but he just... One more email. Well, he brings the food to the desk, because it's just quicker that way. His poor wife, Rachel, at the table on her own. Yeah, exactly. It's just, it's hard to know where to draw the line. That is true.

But, it was not long before something came along to occupy him, because the Seminoles in Florida were causing some trouble. Oh, those damn Seminoles. No idea, have you? Nope. Right, okay. The Seminoles were not a traditional Native American nation, but they were a relatively recent tribe of Native Americans. I'm guessing a combination of two tribes or something. Well, yeah, the name Seminole itself derives from words with a meaning akin to frontier man or runaway or separatist.

Words that meant have moved apart. Yeah. So the Seminole were a tribe that had been created due to the expansion of the European settlers, forcing many of the traditional tribes out of their land. The result was this resettled, relatively new tribe that combined aspects of the cultures of those that had joined it. This was mostly Creeks or the Muscogee from Georgia.

Oh yeah, them. Yeah, we talked about them last time. Definitely. Yes, but also a large number of Choctaws and Chickasaws and also a small but significant minority of escaped slaves. So there was a sizable black population amongst them as well. And they lived just beyond the borders of the US in Spanish-held Florida. Yeah.

Now, the reason why Jackson became focused on them is that they often raided into the US territory. Okay. And he was in charge of defending the southern border, so he was responsible for sorting this out. Yeah, build a wall. Well... Solves most problems, doesn't it?

Well, he decided that wasn't sensible. He thought that sorting this mess out would involve going into Florida, something that Jackson had wanted to do for a while. I mean, that's just a coincidence. Obviously, he's going to sort out this troublesome tribe. But if he just so happens to be in Florida and see some land lying around, then who knows? Anything could happen. Anything could happen. Yeah. Jackson was convinced that as long as Spain held Florida, the United States were at risk. The British could use the region for a launching pad for another invasion. The Spanish, who knows, maybe one day they'd be strong again

and they could try and take land off the US. It would just be better around, he thought, if the US had Florida. They had a lot of old people in the US at this point. And they needed somewhere to put them. Yeah, got a great idea for a theme park as well. Yes, exactly. so yeah yeah got a great idea for a theme park as well yes exactly so these raids from the seminole were all he needed to justify going into the province so off he went now this was dicey legally he was tracking down what the u.s saw as criminals but the seminole had by this point

occupied a spanish fort ah yeah now the Spanish weren't using it, but it was still a Spanish fort. So it's the Spanish's fault. Those damn Spaniards. Yeah, you could argue that. But it's on Spanish land. Yeah, they're hunting down convicts, so, you know. Yeah. Across state lines.

Exactly. Attacking them wouldn't look great. Spain would have a thing or two to say about a Spanish fort being attacked. They're not using that, are they? Yeah, well, that was Jackson's point. However, Jackson, realising that this might be a sore point, wrote to the Spanish governor in the area, informing him that if he did not run the Seminole out of the fort,

the US would take matters into their own hands. Ooh, them's fighting words. Oh yes, unable to do anything, the Spanish reply was, go ahead. Ah, si. Señor, I don't know Spanish. Si, señor. What's go ahead in Spanish?

Go ahead. Yes, it is. Well done there. So plans in his head were made However these plans to take the fort were delayed Because Washington realised a couple of things Collectively All at once

One, the country was broke After the war of 1812 they had no money Two, relations with the American Indian tribes were arguably at an historic low. Well, I'm not surprised. Yeah, and another war could definitely result from messing around too much at this moment. So, it was decided that perhaps the government should do something about all the rampant theft of Native American land that was going on at the moment. Maybe we should cool it a little bit with this.

They're going to hunt down all the people that have been doing it. Exactly. Irony gong. Jackson was given an order. Go into southern Tennessee and northern Mississippi and kick out all the white settlers on Indian land and, I quote, coughed awkwardly. While Jackson in particular was not happy, despite working with pro-US Native American tribes before,

he simply did not trust them. He was convinced that all citizens would rise up and defend the nation if needed. But this was the sticking point with Jackson. Native tribes were not US citizens. So he did not trust that they would necessarily fight on behalf of the US. After all, he'd seen with his own eyes. Some of them would side with the British. Yeah. They had done before. So why on earth should he be using force against genuine US citizens in aid of those who would not defend the country when called?

That was his reasoning. However, he is now just ignoring direct orders from the government. He's a hero, can't be wrong. And the government are quite rightly pointing out that these people are having their land stolen off them. Bit tricky. However, Jackson then pointed out, well, who's going to follow these orders? The militia? They're not going to do it, are they? I mean, maybe the regular army, but even if they did, the settlers, once moved, would simply move back in again as soon as the army moved on.

That's true. This is unenforceable. So, no, basically. Yeah, he wrote to the Secretary of War, and I quote here, The people of the West will never suffer any Indian to inhabit this country again that has been for 30 years a den of the murderers of their wives and children. So he just refused to follow orders.

Once again, this is Jackson just lumping all Native Americans in with each other. No distinction whatsoever between tribes who were pro-US, tribes who weren't. Acknowledgement that actually it was even more complex than that because you've got politics within

tribes. Just big brushstrokes. I don't trust them. That was very common at the time, though, wasn't it? Oh, yes, very much so. Very sad. So this leaves Madison, who's still president at this time, with a bit of a problem. Rather than cause trouble so close to an election,

he just backed off. And said to Jackson, OK, fair enough. Tell you what, why don't you be in charge of the land negotiations with native americans since you have such strong opinions on this yeah so there you go jackson's now got a new job so the tribes attempted to negotiate using treaties that george washington himself had signed saying things along the lines of hang on you can't kick us off this land george washington himself said we could have this bit of land. And by Joe, we will.

Yeah, Jackson just claimed that those forms were completely invalid. Yeah. He claimed that the Cherokees and the Chickasaws never owned that land to begin with, but actually it belonged to the Creeks, and we just had a war against the Creeks, and we took all that land off them during the war, so, oh, it's our land now.

Yay. Yeah. So that happened. I mean, Jackson was willing to pay compensation for this land so money was exchanged but very little choice was given. Jackson also wanted to go further. He viewed the idea of any Native American land

within the borders of the US as a weakness. And I'll quote here, I have long viewed treaties with the Indians as an absurdity. Not to be reconciled to the principles of our government. The Indians are subjects to the United States, inhabiting its territory and acknowledging its sovereignty.

Is it not absurd for the sovereign to negotiate by treaty with its subjects? So you're saying we shouldn't be dealing with these people, we should be ordering them. Yeah, we're bigger and better than they are. Now, by this point, Monroe had become president, and the Seminole problem reared its head once more. Monroe and John Quincy Adams were in talks with Spain, but Jackson felt that simply going into Florida and sorting things out would just be a

lot simpler. Yeah. After all, it was obvious Spain were far too weak to put up a fight. Another quote here, let it be signified to me through any channel that the possession of Floridas would be desirable to the United States, and in 60 days it will be accomplished. That's very assertive, isn't it? Oh yeah. I've said this quote before in Munro's episode I believe. This is where it's a bit dubious who knew what exactly. It's an early example of executive deniability. Okay. Yeah. Depending which history book you read Calhoun the scary guy who's now the secretary of war so we're on to a third one now, and Monroe had different levels of knowledge

of what Jackson was about to do. Now, apparently, Monroe later claimed that he was far too sick in bed to have read the letter. I have no idea. I just didn't know. It was a huge shock. Jackson, how dare you? I'm so disappointed. Bad boy, Jackson. Bad...

Give him the money. Is possibly one way it went down. Yeah, I think so disappointed! Bad boy, Jackson! Bad... Give him the money! Is possibly one way it went down. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Others at the time claimed that Monroe was more than aware and had let Jackson know through one of these back channels that, yeah, nudge and a wink, go for it. This will happen.

What is certain is that Jackson was itching to take Florida and was more than willing to skirt around any legal niceties to do so. Do you think Jackson may have held them slightly to ransom because he could say, well, I'm going to invade them. If I do and you disagree with me and chastise me, that'll look like you can't control

your generals. There is no evidence of that that I have seen whatsoever but there would have been that slight feeling i imagine from monroe it's like out of control how much can we chastise this rogue general he is a war hero we can't upset him too much he was tricky to control was jackson yeah if anyone else had just said no to an order like he had earlier he'd'd have been out of there. But this is Jackson. So yeah, he was a tricky character.

Anyway, he ordered the invasion. What became known as the First Seminole War. Always fun when wars are called the first. War of 12. Yeah, Seminole War. And then one of those things like you get in Twitter. Just a one and a slash and then a question mark. Oh, yeah.

So anyway, off to that fort that I mentioned earlier. It was attacked. The US troops were supported by a gunboat, which is nice. The gunboat fired at the fort and the balls bounced off the walls. It was a good fort. That's a very good fort. The guns then were elevated a bit and this time the balls were heated to a glowing red before being fired.

On the wooden boats. Yeah, that's funny. One hit the target, which was the stockpile of gunpowder in the fort. Now, OK, I'm not a scientific expert here, but I know if you fire a massive red glowing hot ball at gunpowder, something happens. Something definitely happens. What happened, Rob? The explosion ripped the fort apart.

Wow. Killing or maiming all within. Over 300 people died. This lad went for the paintball, isn't it? It was, yeah. That defend the fort thing. Yeah. With a grenade in it, it was awful. It was just like that. The carnage. Yeah. We can empathise because we'd been paintballing. Yeah. So we know what it's like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that was over

quickly. Then fighting went back and forth for a while and attempts to talk went nowhere. So the war began in earnest. By this point, Jackson had joined the army. He hadn't actually been there for the start. He had to get down to Florida. He was at home. But he's there and he's leading the troops. He was soon updated and found that a Scotsman named Arbenoth

was helping to lead the Seminole. Damn Scots. Yeah. Well, this British interference was exactly what Jackson feared. And this is back in the days where Scotsmen would actually identify as being British. Yeah.

It was a proud thing back then. Yeah, yeah. They didn't hate the English quite so much. I mean, they still hated the English. Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. But just not quite as much. So anyway, yeah, this British interference, it's what Jackson feared. This is evidence that Britain are trying to control Native American tribes to cause unrest. It's amazing how one person can change history in that way.

Well, it wasn't just one. He found another British man as well. Oh. Yeah, two. There were two. He said, Arbenoth. He sounds like the Lord of the Rings. Arbenoth.

Yeah, he does. But you need to say it in a Scottish accent.. He said, Arbenoth. He sounds like a Lord of the Rings. Arbenoth. Yeah, he does. But you need to say it in a Scottish accent. Arbenoth. Arbenoth. Arbenoth. Arbenoth. Arbenoth. One of those.

One of those might not have been insulting. I wonder which one. You'll have to delete very carefully that one. So yeah, Jackson made it very clear that Arbenoth and the other Seminole leaders needed to be caught and caught quickly. Because if we take down their leaders, everything will fall apart. Yeah. Now, as we've already seen, the wars between the US and the Native Americans were not nice. No.

No. Things got nasty from both sides very quickly. War shouldn't be fun. You shouldn't enjoy killing the enemy. Well, Jackson systematically burnt down villages and destroyed the livelihoods of all who he suspected of aiding the enemy, which was anyone, basically. Anyone native, vaguely Native American.

Yeah, pretty much. Equally, the seminar were not being pushovers. In one village, a pole was discovered with the fresh scalps of 50 men decorating it. Yeah, nasty. So the fighting was fierce. There were certainly no

niceties. No. Not long after this, Jackson wrote to the Spanish governor explaining that they were here as a friend to Spain. We're here to help, so don't interfere. Don't worry. We're not here to take your land. Honest. We're here to help, so don't interfere. Don't worry. We're not here to take your land. Honest.

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Now, despite the fierce fighting, the war was soon won by the United States. Arbenoth. Of course it was. And this other British man who I mentioned, whose name was Ambrister, were both captured.

So two British citizens were now taken by Jackson. Jackson wanted to settle this matter nice and quickly, make an example of the two British agents. What would you do? What would I do with the British agents? I'd just take away their tea. Oh, that's harsh. Yeah, that's all you need to do.

That's far too harsh. Like, torture, ripping off limbs, is fine. You do not take away tea from someone British, Rob. Well, that's what I would have done. That is far beyond the pale. The pale's so far away, it's just a little white dot in the distance. I'm sorry, Jeremy. Why? What would you do in this

situation? I don't know, rip off a limb? Right, okay. Far more preferable. Well, Jackson set up a court, and a trial was had. Right. Now, the fact that the court had no legal basis whatsoever didn't really stop anyone. To be fair, there were things like witnesses and the British agents were able to defend themselves. I mean, it was a full court. It just didn't really have any legal basis.

The outcome, go on, just take a guess. Ooh, were they guilty? They were guilty. They were found guilty. Ambrister was originally sentenced to be shot and Arbenoff death by hanging. Oh. However, after conferring,

the court talked about this for a bit and it was decided to commute the sentence to a lashing and hard labour. So no longer death sentences. We're just punished for them. Yeah. So I guess as well, I don't know. Because, yeah, if you're doing hard labour and stuff,

they can go out and say, oh, you know, don't go against the British. They spread that fear, don't they? Yeah. But also they realised that killing two British citizens. Oh, yeah. Bit of a diplomatic problem there. That could be, yes, that's true. Yeah, so.

King George wouldn't be happy, would he? He wouldn't. So, yeah, so generally decided that perhaps best if we don't kill the foreign nationals. Avoid the diplomatic problems. Yeah, it's not sort of the best thing to do. Now, the war was over by this point and Jackson was heading for home and he heard the sentence on the road. So he sent back an order.

Between the hours of eight and nine o'clock, A. Arbenoff is to be suspended by the neck until dead and Robert C. Ambrister is to be shot to death. Right back, not shot to pain. No, to death. Yeah, Jackson was not happy that the court had gone for the soft option and made it very clear that both needed to die. That's nice. Yeah, so this creation of a legally dubious court and then his complete disregard to their conclusions will come back to haunt him slightly when he wins

for president. Yeah. Anyway, Jackson was starting to form enemies in the capital. Some were seriously worried that he had the makings of a military dictator. Yeah, he's quite... He's not following orders. No. He's doing what he wants.

Yeah. And he has a huge support in the army. A bit like Mussolini. Yeah, a bit like Caesar. Who? Some Roman guy. All right. Now, Jackson may have defeated the Seminole,

but he didn't actually stop there, and he was soon holding Spanish towns in the name of defence. Yeah. Yeah. It's easier to defend America if we have this spanish town yeah make makes sense yeah we're defending you yeah most of monroe's cabinet denounced jackson's actions as completely reckless as did a large number in the house and the senate henry clay in particular proclaimed and i quote here greece her Alexander, Rome had Caesar.

Quick high five. England her Cromwell, France her Bonaparte. If we would escape the rock on which they split, we must avoid their errors. Yeah. We don't want a Jackson. Yeah, exactly. So guys, whatever we do, hands in the middle,

hands on top, palms on top, right, make a pact here. Jackson must never get into a position of power in this country. You with me, guys? Yeah. Woo, yeah. OK. He must never be present, something like that.

Pretty much what happened, yeah, with a group of them. Yeah. Now, as we've seen, John Quincy was the only man who really supported Jackson at this time, mainly because he opposed those who were denouncing the general. It was all politics. As we saw last time, Florida was eventually handed over to the US after negotiations. Meanwhile, Jackson was back home and in poor health once again.

He seemed, went on campaign to perk up a bit, but as soon as the fighting stopped, he seemed to fall apart slightly. He wrote, My health is gone. My hands shake from debility. I cannot write with facility. He's an adrenaline junkie, isn't he?

Yeah, yeah, quite possibly. He needs his fix. Yeah. Despite his health problems, he was still very much a large figure in the US and one that Monroe wanted to keep happy. So he was selected to go and accept the surrender of Florida to the United States. Yay. Yeah, it's good. However, due to a disagreement

over paperwork, Jackson had the Spanish governor arrested. Yeah, this caused another diplomatic headache for the president. Yeah. Still, all this is sorted out and Jackson turns his attentions to national politics. He turned down the offer to become the governor of Tennessee, but he was happy to be put forth as a nominee for the president of the United States in 1822. Now, the recent financial crash in 1819 had left people a bit worried and distrusting banks. Yeah. Yeah, Jackson was by this point very vocal on his opinions on banks and kind of ran with this message for a while. So he was building up his popularity

as an anti- establishment, anti-bank, anti-elite voice. Yeah, you're a banker. Well, I've got a rhyming word for that. Horrible anchors. Yeah. Massive anchors. Now, remember've got a rhyming word for that. Horrible anchors. Yeah. Yeah. Massive anchors. Now, remember, this was during Monroe's presidency, and the

US had a one-party system at this point. Yeah. But the Republicans were starting to fracture. To simplify, you had the pro-industry North against the slave economy South. Yeah. But on top of this, just to complicate everything, you had the established aristocracy

east and the struggling frontier west. And all these spheres overlapped and people are also very complex and would support things even though they weren't in that area. So it was just a bit messy. It's a complex political landscape that's starting to build. Jackson was emerging as a grassroots leader, Jeffersonian Republican. Going back to the ideals. The good old days. Yeah. Where everyone died of scurvy. This movement was starting to be

known as the Democrats and would eventually become the Democrat Party. He was one of the Democrats? Jackson, yes. Wow! The first Democrat president he would become. Spoiler. Yes. Now apart from disliking the Democrats? Jackson, yes. Wow. The first Democrat president he would become. Yes. Spoiler. Yes.

Now, apart from disliking the banks, Jackson was seen as an antidote to all the corruption in Washington. He was an honest man, a straight shooter, not a politician. Maybe that's what we need in Washington. Now, to begin with, no one took his nomination seriously. No. He was a mere soldier. Yes, he was popular, but he wasn't educated.

So he's running for president and people sort of laughed him thinking i'll never happen yeah yeah especially those in a position of power they underestimated the popularity that this man could get yeah those that underestimated him soon realized that actually he had a swell of support under him. Especially now that a lot of states, all but three in fact, had removed land ownership restrictions from who could vote. So the potential voter numbers had increased significantly. And those that could vote were just the normal people, not the landed elite. That's going to have a massive idea.

Yeah, that's going to shift things. Because you feel war hero. Yeah. Now, despite the support, outwardly, Jackson portrayed himself as just like George Washington did and John Quincy Adams did and modelled himself on a Roman politician. He did not want the job, but he would serve if the people needed him to. Inwardly, however, this increasingly became an obsession to become the president. However, one problem was the fact that there was a man named John Williams who was serving as the Tennessee senator.

Williams completely opposed the idea of Jackson, thought Jackson would be awful, and this just didn't look good. This was a man from Jackson's home state saying Jackson would not be a good man for the job. So it was suggested by supporters of Jackson, why don't you run for the Senate and then you can oust Williams? And then there's no one in there bad-mouthing you anymore. Yeah. Why do we need a sci-fi composer?

Yeah, we don't. So in you go. So the plan was completely successful. Yeah, John Williams was voted out and just went away to go and compose music. Sadly playing his, I don't know, Schindler's List. Oh, that's what he did with it. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, of course, the disadvantage of this is Jackson now was a senator. He'd been portraying himself as an outsider. He's not a dirty politician. He's an honest man. Well, now he's a politician who had to actually vote on things so people could say, well, you voted for this and you didn't vote for that, but you said this. He could be scrutinized a lot easier now. That's true. You've got to back up your actions, haven't you, a lot more?

You're accountable. Yes, exactly. Which kind of went against the whole election plan that he had. The idea was to stay above the fighting between the politicians and appear more stately. Become a second Washington. Can you just not vote on anything? Just abstain?

Then you look weak, though, don't you? If you do it in a loud enough voice. No, seriously. I refuse to vote for anything. Yeah, I'm sure that would get your followers. People are idiots. You never know. Maybe it would work.

Now, it had been almost exactly 25 years since he had last been a senator. Remember, he was a senator when he was quite young for a brief period of time, and he hated it. And he hated it now as well. Oh, good. Yeah, he disliked the pontification of Washington. He liked less his separation from Rachel.

He wrote, Should Providence once more permit us to meet, I am solemnly resolved, with the permission of heaven, never to separate or be separated from you in this world again. Oh. Yeah, isn't that nice? He misses Rachel.

Then they've both committed joint suicide. No, no. Together forever. No? No, not quite. It's not that happy. Oh dear. Now, during this time, John Quin adams held his massive party in honor of jackson you remember that from his episode yeah so that big party happens uh despite the two lining up to oppose each other in the election as we saw john quincy was trying to get jackson on board with

him it just doesn't work yeah it did very little to change Jackson's mind about running. Now, we won't go into detail about the election, as we've already looked at it in John Quincy's episode. But a reminder here, Jackson won 154,000 votes. John Quincy is 109. Jackson, runaway winner. Yeah. But he had no clear electoral college victory. So the decision goes to the House. Then, Henry Clay made his deal with John Quincy.

I'll become the Secretary of State in return for my support. And due to this, John Quincy took the job. Now, despite an outward appearance of calm, when Jackson turned up to a celebratory dinner party and shook John Quincy's hand. I remember that. Yeah. Jackson was furious. I remember that. Jackson was furious at what he saw was a complete corruption of democracy.

Do you think the handshake was quite... Crushing. Rotating of knuckles. Oh yeah. Almost five minutes as well. Yeah. If there was one thing Jackson believed in it was that democracy was the power of the people. Yeah.

And the people clearly wanted him to be the president. But the elites in Washington had destroyed this. I guess if you're going to find one flaw with the electoral college system, it's that. It's not, in a way, it's not the power of the people. Well, yes. And as we discussed in John Quincy's episode, that's exactly the point of it. It was supposed to do this. It was to stop a populist like Jackson from getting in charge. Well, it didn't work, did it?

You can debate whether it's a good system or not, but it worked at the time. Yes. It did the job it was supposed to do. Jackson did not like that job. He saw it as a corrupt democracy. And to be fair, he's got a very good point there. But it's good to have that counterbalance in a way, you know, because you won't get somebody suddenly springing up, wrecking everything,

and dealing with a fallout for the next 50 years. And that was the idea behind it. Yeah, yeah. You can definitely debate both sides. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Jacksonson not happy at all and was not about to step back he's going to be president damn it so he started his campaign for the next election almost immediately he quit the senate and returned home to plan he hated being

a senator so he just stopped doing that yeah screw this now there was an early blow when it soon circulated that none other than a very ageing Thomas Jefferson had said that Jackson's popularity was evidence that the Republic would not last much longer. I think he's on to something. Yeah, it just doesn't sound good when one of the founding fathers said, you are the death knell of our country.

It's not ringing praise, let's put it that way. Yeah, it's hard to spin. Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't put on a Jackson t-shirt, would you? No. But this was just the start. Jackson had made many enemies who seriously did not want to see him as president, that bunch who did the secret pact with their hands in the middle.

And they were wasting no time in pulling Jackson's name through the muck. Which, to be fair, wasn't too hard to do. No, I bet they looked at themselves and just said, this is going to be too easy. Yeah, I mean... There's so many bad things he's done. There's no way he'd become president. Pretty much, yeah.

There may have been some embellishments, but there were a few outright lies. Jackson was accused in the papers of being involved in the slave trade, which he was, of murdering a man in cold blood, which he had, of starting brawls that descended into shooting matches, which he had definitely done,

of being involved in Aaron Burr's treason, which arguably, yeah, yeah, enough for it to be a bit dodgy, definitely. Executing the soldiers for very little reason. Like wearing their Tuesday socks on a Monday. Exactly, things like that. For killing people in kangaroo courts. Why would you have a kangaroo judge?

Well, because... They bounce all over the place. You don't need to listen to them, so it might as well be amusing. I fed a kangaroo. Oh, did you? Yeah, they're so gentle. Oh, is this on your holidays? Yeah.

But they've got really sharp claws. Yeah, I can imagine. Big legs. Yeah, they're known for those. Yeah. Sorry, carry on. Yeah, no, it's all right. It's a little kangaroo tangent.

I liked it. Yeah. So, yeah, he was accused of all these things. What's that, Skip? He's guilty. Yeah, yeah, he was accused of all these things. What's that, Skip? He's guilty? Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then the worst crime he was accused of, not being able to spell. Oh.

Yeah. I'm not good at that. No, my spelling's awful. So I can sympathize here. I did see a quote, but I couldn't verify that it was a genuine one, but I really hope it is. Apparently Jackson said something, and I'm paraphrasing here, it is a man with a poor imagination who can't think of more than one way to spell a word.

That's brilliant. Which I really quite liked. Yeah, that's lovely. But the trouble is, in this sort of time, you don't get much consistency with spelling anyway. You did in the... To a point. The established elite, though. Ah, yeah, he's not though. elite though well exactly and that's why they were criticizing yeah uh something known as the coffin handbill

was widely reprinted this is a banner for newspapers showing six ink coffins representing six soldiers that he had executed there's a picture it here. We'll put it up on our website. But it literally is just six ink-drawn coffins. And it says, Some account of the bloody deeds of General Jackson. So this was talking about six soldiers who had claimed their terms of service were up. We signed up for two months, so we get to go home now.

Jackson said, no, you should be up for two months so we get to go home now jackson said no you should be here for six months they disagreed so he killed them or court-martialed them if you want to give it a little bit more of an official but they ended up dead one way or another yeah it was seen as a little bit harsh yeah yeah so i guess with his whole patriotic view they would be cowards and well yeah exactly i'm not saying i agree with his this was taking place in and around the whole new orleans yeah period of time and uh he needed the men to defend america you can see from a general perspective he was trying to instill order if everyone kept walking out all the time. However, from a point of view a few years later, when you're talking about politicians,

and one of them quite happily killed six men over a minor disagreement, it looks bad. It does. Yeah. Stickler for the rules. He is. Or not. I know, that's a good point.

Stickler for his rules. Yeah. That's what he is or not i know that's a good point stickler for his rules that's what he is now against all of this jackson had one powerful message that he could fire back the corrupt bargain between john quincy and henry clay yeah this is a behind the doors deal done by the elites in washington to subvert the will of the people. See, would they have known about it? Or was it just an inkling of this has probably happened? It was just so obvious. Yeah, nothing officially definite, but it was open secret, essentially.

Yeah, people could work out what had happened. So, yeah, this very powerful message of these people in Washington think they're better than you. You all wanted me to be president. I should be president. So he just pushed that, basically. They're untrustworthy. I'm untrustworthy. And I'll probably kill you.

I mean, the only thing that they could really try and pin on John Quincy was that John Quincy had a billiard table in the White House that he had used government funds to pay for rather than out of his own pocket. Oh, you would though, wouldn't you? Oh, of course you would. And that was it. And that's about all you've got against John Quincy because let's face it, he was a... Straight up guy.

Yeah, he was. So anyway, despite all the mud, albeit truthful mud, being thrown at Jackson, it wasn't really sticking. And when the anti-Jacksonians realised that Jackson being a murdering loon was not enough to discredit him, they switched tact and they went after the one place they knew would hurt Jackson. What's Jackson's trigger? Oh, his wife. Oh, yes. All of a sudden, stories of them running off to Neches together circulated. She was a married woman at the time, so therefore she was an adulteress. In the more aggressive attacks, she was called a whore or even a dirty black wench.

Because why not throw some casual racism into the sexist attack? Why not? Because don't forget, there were no nice people back then. Everyone was a bit horrible. I can imagine the people trying to print that. We need you to put this on a big poster for me, please. And the guy gets it at the poster factory

or the shop and he's like, I know, Jackson, there's no way I'm publishing this. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. for me please and the guy gets it at the poster factory or the shop and he's like i know jackson there's no way i'm publishing this oh no no no no too far well jackson was beyond furious i can he was already furious yeah that's just his general state yeah i mean the the anger chart that he kept on his wall just to keep an eye on how angry he was uh because sometimes he was so angry he couldn't figure it out he had to draw an extra bit on top oh yeah it's his lovely manicured poster and then right at the top a little pencil drawing yeah exactly with a really angry face that's yeah flipping furious yeah that's what he'd reached bloody enraged yeah he compared this attack on rachel to an assassin coming through the window at night and slaughtering your entire family.

That's the pain he felt. He's very loyal, isn't he? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He has, and I will quote here, feelings of indignation that I can scarcely control. I like to think he was saying that whilst sharpening his pistols. Or whatever it is you did back then i'm not sure um but jackson was clever enough to know that a response is exactly what those working against

him wanted they wanted him to fly off the handle yeah they wanted him to go for his pistols but he's aware of that yeah so and i quote here for the the present, my hands are pinioned. The day of retribution and vengeance must come when the guilty will meet their just rewards. But not today. No. Yeah. I think, like, as he wrote that, like, a shiver went up their spines. Yes.

What was that? Rachel herself did not cope well with these attacks at all. She was suffering in health anyway, and these attacks really affected her She was suffering in health anyway, and these attacks really affected her mood and made her go downhill. Not only this, though, she also dreaded her husband winning the White House, because that would mean her having to move to Washington, where all these accusations were coming from. She thought she'd be an outcast. The last place she wanted to go was Washington. Anyway, eventually the election came along and the results were in.

It was a landslide for Jackson. 647,000 votes to John Quincy's 508,000. Wow. Notice the huge increase in voters there. Yeah. Yeah, by hundreds of thousands. This is because we're starting to see far more voters because these land restrictions are being taken out.

So this is by far the most democratic election the US have had so far. I mean, you still had to be white and male, obviously. Of course, yeah. Obviously. And wealthy enough. Yeah, but still, that's a lot more than we've had before. Yeah, so that was the popular vote. The electoral college victory was even bigger, 178 to 83 in Jackson's favour.

Wow. Huge victory. However, there was one twist before Jackson headed to the White House. Rachel, who, as I said, was struggling with her health, suddenly died of a heart attack. Oh, no! Yeah, literally just before he was due to leave for Washington. Now, despite being bled for three days

straight, the doctor could do nothing to save her. Oh god! The medication! Yeah. Sorry Jackson, we found the cause of death. It's lack of blood. We bled it for eight days, but nothing. Nothing worked.

Yeah. Jackson had to be physically prized away from her body. He was in bits. She was buried on a drizzly day a few days later in the grounds of his home. That's really sad. Really sad. But he knew why she died. The doctor might have said heart attack, but he knew the real reason.

And I quote here, may God almighty forgive her murderers. I never can. It was those politicians scheming against him that drove her to her death. I bet they panicked like hell. Oh no, oh no, he's going to blame us. Take the posters down. Take the posters down. So, Jackson becomes the president. His inauguration was a chaotic affair. Due to the popularity of Jackson, a lot of people came to Washington. One resident of the capital compared this to the hordes descending upon Rome.

And then, quick high five. Yeah. No one was around there, so he had to... High five himself. Yeah. Woo! Yeah. Quick sad clap. But he told people about it in the pub later.

Yeah, they thought it was quite cool. Yeah. Sorry, the tavern. Oh, the bar. They don't have pubs in America, do they? Oh, no, that's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Anyway, Jackson spoke from the East Portico of the Capitol building,

and once the speech was done, the reception at the White House began. Although perhaps a better word would be party, or perhaps even rave. Oh. Yeah. Things got out of hand very quickly. Neon candles. Yeah. The techno was blasting out.

Party cannons were passing out random tablets yeah yeah well the the masses piled up into the white house and i'll quote here what a scene we did witness a rabble a mob fighting and romping oh yeah um yeah thousands of people piling into the white house to have a party big yeah it really wasn't that big. In the end, a quick-thinking worker at the White House made a decision to roll all the barrels of punch and whiskey out into the gardens. And that would entice everyone out, which worked.

Yeah. That's brilliant. Now, some saw this huge impromptu party celebration a good thing. This was democracy at work. This was the people celebrating their victory. In the people's house. Yeah, exactly. To the largely upper classes of Washington, however, most people in the city were terrified at this sight. What have we done? Yeah, look at what this country is descending into. A rabble, a mob. We've now got democracy.

A rabble, a mob. We've now got democracy. Yeah. When we said all men are created equal, we meant us. However, the first problem Jackson had to deal with was not of national importance, interestingly enough. But instead it was dealing with this very Washingtonian political class. Right. Jackson's cabinet consisted of Van Buren as his Secretary of State.

Right. We'll learn more about him another time don't worry and his friend ethan as secretary of war and various other people who we don't need to go into ethan ethan yes now ethan had recently married a young and apparently very beautiful widow named peggy peggy now there were were many in Washington who saw Eaton getting the job as Secretary of War as blatant favouritism. Eaton wasn't seen as particularly qualified for this job, and Jackson had given it to him clearly because he was Jackson's friend. So, this group start to attack Peggy.

Why not? But it worked last time. That one died, so it's a bit strategy. Well, they start attacking Peggy's character and her past. She was the daughter of a hotel owner with lowly beginnings and rumour was spread that she

got to know many of her guests very well. Oh, that's a good rumour to spread. We have no idea how true these rumours are. I'm guessing not. We do know that the rumours were widely believed in the upper classes of Washington society. Jackson found that Peggy Eaton was being shunned by Washington society just to get at her husband. And he was outraged.

Obviously, he saw this as a parallel to what had happened to Rachel. So he was furious. And Eton must be as well. I am mightily dispatched. Oh, yes. Eton was terribly, terribly miffed. Jackson cried out one time, she is as chaste as a virgin,

whilst meeting a couple of ministers who had failed to decline. They had heard the rumours. Ah. Yeah. So... So Eaton was there as he said that. She says,

Chase the Virgin! Eaton's like, well, I can't comment. I really couldn't say. Yeah. Well, this became a bit of an obsession with Jackson early on in his presidency.

I can see why, though. He's been sort of butchered by this in the past. Well, yeah, and he's also just getting over the death of his wife wife and he was thrust into the job of being the president. Mentally he must have been all over the place. Those around him realise that they can use this obsession that their president seems to have suddenly developed. Van Buren realised that coming out on Peggy's side would do him well in Jackson's eyes. So he became a firm supporter of Peggy and Eaton, and Jackson and Van Buren formed a good bond because of it.

Equally, Calhoun, who was still vice president... Wow. Yeah, yeah, he maintained his vice presidency job. Oh, through what means? Well, probably scheming in his volcano somewhere yeah i have no competitors they met their demise yeah exactly with sharks with lasers in their eyes yeah yeah alas i'm a poet and i did Carl. Yeah, he became vice-president. Okay, cool.

That's what he did. But he was still looking for a way to the top job. Calhoun wanted to be president. And he figured that by stirring the pot of rumours, he could spread discourse and who knows, maybe... Push him over the edge. Yeah, exactly. After all, if something were to happen to Jackson,

he's vice-president, so who knows? There's no evidence that if something were to happen to Jackson, he's vice president. So who knows? There's no evidence that he was planning to drive Jackson insane, but he was certainly starting to work against Jackson. Or make him a clock, the cuckoo clock, go at just a minute before his actual time. Yeah, yeah. So it's still a minute before, like, three o'clock, but it cuckooed at one minute to three. That would drive you mad, wouldn't it?

Or like three o'clock, but it cuckooed one minute to three. That would drive you mad, wouldn't it? And every night he'd go in and change all of Jackson's blue fountain pens to black ink and then keep swapping it day on day. And eventually Jackson snaps. Calhoun had all the plans. Oh, he did. Yeah. So anyway, at this point he was just spreading the rumours around more and more

that this Peggy had a dubious history, shall we say. It got to the point that many around the president started to worry that Jackson had completely lost perspective. He was more concerned with the rumours of this young lady than running the country. However, Congress then came into session and Jackson finally had something to actually deal with. Now, the year previously, the government had set a new tariff law that benefited

manufacturers, i.e. the North, which was less good for slavery, i.e. the South. So this tariff law had gone through, the North liked it, the South didn't. Jackson sympathised with the likes of South Carolina. He was Western, but Southern Western himself, so he very Jackson sympathised with the likes of South Carolina. He was Western, but

Southern Western himself, so he very much sympathised with those that did not like this tariff. But if Jackson was one thing, it was a supporter of the Union. The United States were united, damn it. Nothing could get in the way of that. So he's prepared to compromise.

Well, when South Carolina started making murmurs suggesting that they would declare void this federal law, Jackson was not pleased. States could not override federal laws. There was a union, damn it. States can't do whatever they want. Jackson then found out that it was none other than Vice President Calhoun who was spearheading this resistance to the new law, to the tariffs in South Carolina. Calhoun was who was spearheading this resistance to the new law to the tariffs in South Carolina. Calhoun was putting forth an argument that states should have veto power, lest the federal government succumb to tyranny.

Why should the South suffer to line the pockets of rich merchants in the North, was his argument. You haven't got the idea of union ship then? Oh yeah, exactly. So things came to a personal head between Calhoun and Jackson during a celebration dinner for Jefferson's birthday. Oh, what happened? This was a really big deal at the time. You need to remember this. I try and build up the story as much as I can,

but I don't think it's going to excite you as much as it perhaps excited people at the time. Okay, that's okay. I'm going to warn you now, no one draws a pistol. Oh, I'm not interested. Go on, go's okay. I'm going to warn you now, no one draws a pistol. Oh, I'm not interested. Go on, go for it. Well, in this celebration, it was tradition for many of the leading politicians at the time to stand up and deliver a toast. A short two or three sentences.

That's all you had to say. Cheers, clink glasses, drink. Yeah, like a wedding. Exactly. Less boring. Yeah, like a wedding. Exactly. Less boring. Yeah, small little toast. Now, it was common knowledge by this point that these two men despised each other.

Their relationship had gone down the toilet. They got, like, thrown bits of food at each other on the table. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So everyone was dying to know what they would say in their toast. Would they have a little dig at each other? People would want to drink now jackson had actually written three toasts and then got a friend to help choose which one to use and they decided together this was a big deal yeah putting real thought into it well so you

can't swear no you can't get your pisses out Yeah. This is less of a toast and more of an, it's actual physical assault. Yeah. It just says punch Calhoun again and again and again. Yeah. So yeah, they decide upon a toast. The dinner party started. The toast began. Jackson was first.

He stood up and all waited with bated breath to hear what he would say. Would he use this moment to dress down his own vice president? And here was his toast. And I quote. I'm ready for this. Built this off far too much. He said, to the union, it must be preserved. And then he sat down.

That's quite good. Yeah, it's short to the point. And it is a down. That's quite good. Yeah, it's short to the point. And it is a dig. It is a dig. Yeah. No, the union above everything. Yeah. It's a dig at Calhoun's philosophy of politics.

I like to think he said it staring directly at Calhoun. Sharpening his pistols. Yeah. Yeah. Pistol sharpener. Yeah. So, I meanle sharpener. Yeah. So, I mean, everyone saw it as the rebuke that it was. Yeah.

Calhoun was next. And you can judge who had the better one. The Union, next to our liberty, the most dear. May we all remember that it can only be preserved by respecting the rights of the states. Jackson was far cooler. Yeah, Jackson's short to the point. Calhoun, a bit waffly. Yeah, a bit weird.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, the union's important, but it's only important if we respect states and their rights. Well, then it's not a union then, is it? You can't, like in a democracy, right, you elect somebody, and not everyone's going to agree with that, but you go along with it because that's the decision the majority have made you just know that people for the rest of the dinner party were having conversations exactly like that oh yeah oh yeah yeah but when you think about it yeah yeah and it got really deep after the sixth bottle of wine. Oh yeah. What is union anyway? You and I and an onion.

Whoa. What's in this wine? I'm hearing colours. So anyway, this settled matters after this dinner party in Jackson's mind. Calhoun had to go. As did after this dinner party in Jackson's mind, Calhoun had to go. Yeah.

As did many others that were getting behind him. I mean, he had to do a bit of a reshuffle as cabinet and try and push people out. Jackson wrote to a friend saying that there were those in his government who thought that Jackson was too politically weak to shake things up, that he needed the support of various powerful men from various powerful states he couldn't just push people out jackson finished this letter and i quote how little they know me that is very true it's always an air of violence and menace with Jackson, isn't there? Yes, there really is. Anyway, Jackson completely stripped his cabinet of everyone, including his loyalists.

That's how he got away with it. People loyal to him, he got rid of first. That's very clever. So then people against him couldn't stand up and say, you're just trying to get rid of people. That's very clever. Yeah, it was a clever move by him. So he manages to strip his cabinet and eventually rebuild it in a way he was slightly more happy with.

He then turned his attention to the Native Americans. And the ongoing problem of who lived where exactly. Now, we don't have time to go through all the misery that is the build-up to the Trail of Tears and then the Trail of Tears itself. Oh, that sounds sad.

Yeah, no, I'm going to warn you, it does get a bit grim in this bit. But it happens, so let's see what happens. And this is a summary. You can obviously find podcasts that go into this in more detail. As we've seen, Jackson believed that for the Union to be safe, the Native Americans needed to fully integrate completely or leave. It was that simple in his mind. And since he didn't really feel like any Native American nation had really integrated

properly yet, that left one option. Yeah. His first annual message to Congress, he suggested that the land west of the Mississippi so land purchased in the Louisiana Purchase, not a full state, just a territory, this is perfect for the Indian tribes to live in. So he's getting random people who'd never lived with each other and shut them in one small space.

It's a large area. They could go and live in different areas, he said. It'd be fine. it would be fine so in may 1830 the indian removal act was passed into law now this essentially meant that the government could buy the native american land in return for land in the west but they could use force to do it yeah now specifically Yeah. Now, specifically, the law was aimed at who were known as the five civilised tribes. These five tribes were the Cherokee, the Choctaw, the Muscogee, or the Creeks, the Chickasaw and the Seminole. So quite a few we've seen before. These tribes are mainly in the south. Right.

So we're in Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida area. Middleport. Okay, yeah. Yeah, we are. Okay, your definition of south. Yeah. So yeah, that's roughly where we're looking at. Now, these tribes were given a choice.

You can stay. Of course you can stay. No one's forcing you to do anything. But you must give up claim on all your land and live by our rules, or you must leave. Obviously, again, let me stress this. This is completely voluntary. In fact, I'll even quote Jackson here. It would be as cruel and as unjust to compel the Aboriginals to abandon the graves of their fathers and seek a home in a distant land.

He said it would be awful. Yeah. Awful to force them to do it. You can imagine doing something like that. However, if they did not give up their land and their customs and all their laws, then they had to leave anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

Many chiefs were bribed to help the decision go the right way. The Chickasaws and the Choctaws agreed to move quite quickly. The Seminoles and the Greeks did not, resulting in several years of fighting and many, many deaths. The Cherokee tried a different tact and sued the US government. Oh, that's clever. Yeah. Always American court, though. Yeah. government oh that's clever yeah no one's always an american court though yeah well actually it goes all the way up to the supreme court and eventually

it ruled that georgia could not just rush in and take all the indian land it didn't matter how much gold was suddenly suspected to be on that which oh yeah did i mention that yeah turned out there was a lot of gold in some of this. That had nothing to do with anything, though. No, of course not. No. It's national pride. Unfortunately, though, despite winning in the courts,

the realities of the day just won over. Despite the ruling, there was just no appetite to enforce this ruling by the majority of the white population in Georgia. So it's like guys guys walking into georgia panning equipment and their axes and stuff so yeah yeah we'll we'll we'll respect the court's decision yeah jackson himself i mean it's uh it's quite likely he never said this but it is a famous quote that attributed to him where it says john marshall the the man ruling in the court john marshall has made his law now let him enforce it yeah it's just it's not going to happen and

sure enough it just didn't so the removals by force of the tribes differed from tribe to tribe but none of them were pleasant obviously no the most notorious taking place just after jackson left office so we're jumping ahead slightly here but since it was jackson that put put it all in motion we're going to include it in this episode even though it happens at the start of van boeren's uh presidency spoiler spoiler yeah so this is the plan from the government to move the Cherokees west. And we'll just have a quick look at this one. Right. The plan was to give the Cherokee two years to move and start by helping those who voluntarily chose to move.

So volunteers, put your hands up, we'll help you move, and then hopefully others will move along. To the utter shock of the US generals involved, weren't many volunteers. No. No, there really weren't. Efforts to bribe various leaders also didn't work very well. The Cherokee, for some reason, wanted to stay. So it wasn't going well,

and several months were wasted where not much was achieved. Eventually, however, the dam of pressure burst, and some agreed to move. Approximately 10,000 start making their way west voluntarily. Obviously, this is not all the Cherokee. No. Many, many more refused to leave. So the forced removal begins.

Men and women and children were forced from their homes at gunpoint and rounded up into concentration camps. Yeah. Some US soldiers were naturally horrified by the actions of their own government. And I'll quote here, future generations will read and condemn the act. And I do hope posterity will remember that private soldiers like myself, and like the four Cherokee who were forced by General Now, this is a quote from a soldier who was there. I should say now that some historians dispute that this man was actually present. I should say now that some historians dispute that this man was actually present. But I found no historians disputing that what he's describing actually happened. So, yeah, just be aware of that. Yeah.

Some US soldiers, obviously, were very brutal in their treatment of the Cherokee, using whips to force them onto wagons, etc. Ultimately, however, obviously, it didn't matter whether the individual soldiers felt pity for the Cherokee or used it as an excuse to be brutal. It was still happening. So yeah, like I say, here's a further quote from this US soldier who was perhaps there, and even if he wasn't, well, this is essentially what happened anyway, to get a flavour. I saw the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes and driven at bayonet point into the stockades. And in the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning, I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep into 645 wagons and started towards the west. We encountered a terrific sleet and

snowstorm with freezing temperatures, and from that day until we reached the end of the fatal journey on March the 26th, 1839, the suffering of the Cherokees were awful. The trail of the exiles was a trail of death. They had to sleep in the wagons and on the ground without fire. And I have known as many as 22 of them to die in one night of pneumonia due to ill treatment, cold and exposure. Now, 12 wagon trains of about a thousand people set off. The various routes passing through all sorts of places, Kentucky, Illinois, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri, quite a windy route before reaching Oklahoma, which was their destination.

Roughly a journey of 2,200 miles through freezing temperatures. Estimates of the death count range from 2,000 to 6,000. That's a bit grim. Oh, yeah. This is an almost textbook ethnic cleansing, but you don't see it described that way, really, ever. But that essentially is what this is. The term death march is sometimes used,

which is because it's a death march. But often it's described as the trail of tears i think also highlights like without the soldiers into it it does sort of highlight the evilness of human nature even though it's ordinary person what any ordinary person will do yeah well if we can believe this recount because it's quite a long but even the people there that weren't him they would still be doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like regular people. They're probably farmers.

They're getting a bit of money. They might start off by saying, well, you might have to do something you don't like. But, you know, it's for their best interest. And then it sort of led into the brutality. Yeah. We've seen it in other times in history. Oh, yeah, yeah. We have.

And, yeah, there isn't a civilization alive that hasn't done awful things at some point. No, that was 150 years ago. Yeah, yeah isn't a civilisation alive that hasn't done awful things at some point, has there? No, that was 150 years ago. Yeah, yeah. Wow. See, when it's like 2,000 years ago, you can kind of distance yourself. Yeah, yeah. 150 years ago, there could be grandkids still alive from that.

Yes, exactly. It's shocking stuff. Definitely one of the darkest points in US history, easily. Anyway, we jumped ahead slightly there. We've gone into Van Boren's, but I think it was important to get a picture that this was Jackson that pushed this through. So it's going in his episode.

Anyway, let's get back to politics, shall we? Yeah. Lighten the mood slightly. So, Jackson was still dealing with Calhoun and his crazy hair. And his attempt to get South Carolina to nullify those tariffs. So that's still going on in the background. Calhoun was no longer vice president.

He quit, so he was now allowed a voice of dissent. Yeah. Jackson had a solution how to deal with this problem. He introduced what was known as the Force Bill. That sounds fun. Yeah, especially coming from Jackson. Essentially, it allowed the federal government to use force to enforce the

tariff. Okay. Like bailiffs basically. Yeah. You know the kind of thing that the British used to do that the Americans got really annoyed about. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. Gong. Gong. Good old irony gong. There was an outcry by many that this was despotism.

That this isn't how things are done in our republic. No, but he's elected. It's democratic. Oh, exactly. Fortunately, though, this escalation was stopped when a compromise bill was passed. But many were left with a distinct impression that Jackson was taking a bit too much power for himself. And he always smiles when he signs them. Why does he sharpen his pistols? It makes no sense, but I'm scared.

Anyway, Jackson then goes on a bit of a tour. Time to see some of the country, he thinks. Bit of a whirlwind tour. Bit manic. Bit crazy. He became the first president to travel on a new steam car, as trains were called in the very early days. Oh, yeah. He gets on a train, he does.

Gave him a splitting headache, but there you go. He also travelled by steamboat, so it was all very modern forms of transportation. He didn't try a steam plane, did he? No, he didn't try that one. The crowds in Philadelphia

were so enthusiastic that they pressed against his carriage, spooking the horses, and armed guards had to come out and rescue him. In New York, the crowds were even bigger, and a bridge of onlookers collapsed, sending approximately 1,000 people into the water. Amazingly, no one died.

Then that's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine. We can laugh at it, because no one died. Yeah. However, slightly less funny, hilarious yeah yeah yeah it's fine we can laugh at it because no one died yeah however slightly less funny in new york there was a sailor in charge of a ceremonial cannon that misfired he lost his hands kind of funny yeah a bit grim a little bit for him yeah definitely then on to

boston just leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. Blood, broken bridges, splinters, lost limbs. They're alive, though, damn it. It's fine. Yeah, he gets to Boston. Jackson was given an honorary degree, much to John Quincy's disgust. Ooh. Yeah.

I imagine if you've worked really hard for a PhD or some sort of good degree, you'd be really annoyed at honorary degree things. You've done nothing. I'll quote John Quincy here. I should not be present to see my darling Harvard disgrace herself by conferring a doctor's degree upon a barbarian and a savage who can scarcely spell his own name. To which Jackson replied,

Doctor Savage. Yes, he did. Yeah, this is just in case you thought that there were good guys and bad guys in US history. No, just everyone was awful. Anyway, Jackson's health was deteriorating.

One person in Boston declared that he thought Jackson would not return to see the Capitol. That's how ill Jackson's health was deteriorating. One person in Boston declared that he thought Jackson would not return to see the Capitol. That's how ill Jackson's starting to look. But there was enough in him for one more fight. Because in 1832, the head of the bank, a man named Nicholas Biddle, convinced Congress to extend the life of the U.S. Bank for another 20 years. Now, this is the second bank of the United States. It's the federal bank where all the money is stored.

Jackson, as I said before, was an opponent to federal banks. I mean, banks were suspicious that they were, but federal banks, he just didn't like them. It's like, are they keeping people out, or what are they keeping inside? They never know. And also, just too much power concentrated in one place. Who is this Biddle person?

Who elected him? Yeah. And he's in charge of all the money. Yeah. Yeah, very suspicious. Look at his suit. He also was suspicious that Biddle would be using this power against him in the next election. So Jackson just not happy.

So he vetoed the bill. Ooh. Yeah. Just like that, the bank expires. Oh, wow. He just destroyed the banking system. Just destroyed the bank. He ordered...

Sorry, guys. We didn't need that bank anyway. Well, he orders the money from the federal bank be dispersed into the state banks. Let's spread this about a bit some pointed out that he seemed to favor those states that you know like favored him a little bit more when it came to distributing the whole money but he just called that nonsense of course of course not anyway politicians don't do that the turmoil that this created as you can, meant that banks started to fold. Poor Susan spent her whole life putting money in a bank and suddenly it's being sent somewhere else.

Yeah, well, many states, due to there not being a central bank to fix onto, simply started printing their own money. Inflation! Yeah, quite ridiculously so. In five years, the face value of the banknotes in the entire country went from $10 million to $149 million. Wow. That's like a 14 times increase.

Yeah. Wow. Quite ridiculously so. Now, Jackson was convinced that stories about how bad this was was coming from his political opponents, increasingly becoming known as the Whig Party. And he announced that, and I quote here, he would cut his right hand off his body before restoring the bank.

He was utterly convinced that only those rich investors who doubt in debt were being affected. The common people would be fine. Yeah. However, they weren't. Everyone was being affected by this. The economy completely collapsed. The panic of 1837 occurs just before he leaves office.

This enraged many people who found themselves losing their livelihoods as the country once again spiralled into financial problems. One day, as Jackson was leaving a memorial service in the Capitol building, a man took a couple of steps towards him. Oh dear. He raised a pistol. A crack rang out before anyone could do anything. But after a shocked pause, where everyone kind of checked themselves, it became clear that the pistol had misfired. The powder in the barrel had not exploded. The pistol had not shot, despite the noise. Obviously, though, everyone's a bit shocked by this, and that gave the would-be assassin enough time to reach a second pistol, which he then aimed straight at Jackson once again and fired.

which he then aimed straight at Jackson once again and fired. A second crack rang out and there was another pause while everyone checked to see if they'd been shot. But again, the second pistol had misfired. By this time, Jackson and those around him started to move. I get a bit annoyed. Jackson heading directly towards his assassin with his cane raised. Oh, yeah. Jackson's getting on in years by this point.

Still. Oh, yeah. Others beat him to it, however, and the man was roughly handed over to the police. Yeah. When asked why he had tried to kill Jackson, the man replied that Jackson was a tyrant and that he had lost his job due to the president. So there was feelings of unrest. But what if he just wanted

guys really bad at his job? Oh, maybe. And his boss just was called Jackson. He was a bit thick. Got a bit confused. Maybe, maybe. You don't know the backstory here. We don't. We don't. It was decided he was insane in the end because he claimed to be a descendant of the throne of England. Yeah, so it was just decided he was insane but to begin with he seemed quite

calm and just said no it's the financial crisis i hate the man i wanted to see him dead yeah yeah then he thought well we're gonna have to kill you because that's our bleeding sanity yeah quite possibly um his pistols were tested apparently the. The story goes that both pistols worked perfectly fine when tested. This led to Jacksonian supporters declaring that their leader was protected by God. Now, how true this is, who knows? But that's the story that went about. Or he's a sassan. Maybe, maybe.

Probably not. But I like the conspiracy theory. So there you go. Our first assassination attempt. That's quite cool. Yeah. But this is not the end. Because we're going to end on a story of cheese.

Yes! Yes. I love cheese. Yes, because just like Jefferson, Jackson also got a big cheese. Yes. This one was created in Sandy Creek, New York, by Colonel Thomas Meacham. It was 1,400 pounds, or 635 kilograms. I bet a waiting system.

That's massive. That is massive. That's roughly the weight of a cow. Oh, that poor cow. Yeah. Not only was it a big cheese, it was bigger than Jefferson's cheese. Oh, yeah. By 200 pounds.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It also had a bout around it, which had, and I quote, the union must be preserved etched into it. Oh, he did love that. Oh, yeah. Jackson must have loved that. So the cheese arrived at the White House and was put pride of place for a while.

Jackson not sure what to do with it. What on earth do you do with this massive cheese? Please, fetch me a knife. Yeah, so he gave some of it away and then he put it into storage. Two years later, as he was about to leave office, he realised that he needed to do something with the cheese. There's still £1,000 left. Yeah, it's like he's not about to lug the cheese home.

So, what can we do? Samuel, have you got any ideas? Why not about to lug the cheese home so uh what can we do samuel any ideas why don't we give the cheese away sir to starving people yeah and that's what they do they open the doors of the white house and they give the cheese away it was a big cheese giveaway oh cheese fest cheese fest that's what it was one resident described and i quote an evil smelling horror coming out of the White House before the party started. This is an old cheese. Yeah, but that's okay, because cheese does last.

Well, what kind of cheese? Was it like a cheddar-y cheese or like a blue cheese? It was a big cheese. It was a big, yeah. Yeah, that's all you need to know. It was a big cheese. Imagine like over 1,000 pounds of stinking bishop. Oh, it was...

Well, it was quite pungent, apparently. The wife of a senator wrote the following. This is after Jackson's left and Van Buren's taken office. And I'll quote here. The White House has been put in order by the present occupant and is vastly improved. Van Buren says that he had a hard task to get rid of the smell of cheese.

And in the room where it was cut, he had to air the carpet for many days to take away the curtains and to paint and whitewash before he could get victory over it. That's hilarious. They had to literally strip the room to the bare boards

to get rid of the cheese smell that's really funny but the cheese trouble was not over because van boeren had been given his own massive cheese at the same time what is it were these big cheeses i don't know this one was half the size but obviously still enormous um and the wife of the senator mentions it in the same letter again i'll quote van boeren has another cheese like that which general jackson had cut and he says he knows not what to do with it what a foolish thing for a man to have made such a present to him or anyone else they love their big cheeses that way because like the cheese to taste good you're gonna leave for at least a year as well so this in my mind and i apologize to our american listeners if you think

i'm off base here but i think this just sums up the american psyche make it big can we spend ages perfecting it or should we just make a massive cheese? And they went for the massive cheese. Well, it's pride, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Let's just make it as big as possible. A big cheese. Because we can do it.

Yeah, exactly. It's can-do attitude. It's good attitude. Yeah, yeah. So there you go. Anyway, Jackson retires. He goes back to Tennessee for the better part of a decade after leaving the White House. Not long after leaving, he asked a friend what he thought prosperity would judge him most harshly for.

His friend replied, maybe the whole business with the banks. That won't be seen as good. Notice how the whole forced death march isn't mentioned. That's irrelevant, by the way. The thing with the banks, though, that wasn't great. You'll be judged harshly on that. Yeah, you're probably going to get judged on that jackson replied not at all i will tell you the prosperity will judge me more because i was persuaded not to hang calhoun as a traitor but then for any other act in my life

this is clearly a thought that stuck with him because there was another time after he retired where he was asked if he had any regrets in his presidency let me guess his only regret was and i quote that i didn't shoot henry clay and i didn't hang john c calhoun jackson lived till 1845 the age of 78 when he died of dropsy and heart complications wow there you go that is andrew jack What an interesting fellow. Oh, yeah. You ready to rate this one? Wow. Let's do it. Yeah.

He believed, truly, in the voice of the people being heard. He believed in the democracy that his country had created. After being elected, he attempted to get rid of the electoral college. Yeah. This obviously flawed system was already showing cracks and the country was still young enough for mindless traditions to have not set in yeah so sorry was did he want this before he became president to be fair he wanted it after he became president yeah after the electoral college had bitten him yeah yeah yeah that's awesome um yeah i'll quote him here our system

of government was by its framers, deemed as an experiment. And he goes on to point out that the framers clearly did not mean for the people's choice to be overturned. Now, this is debatable, as we've discussed before. The framers perhaps did exactly mean that. But Jackson's argument is strong here. The Electoral College is a bit off. It's not great. I think we should get rid of this.

He also wanted term limits for presidents so you couldn't get crazy dictators. There are no term limits at this point. It is just tradition that you serve two terms that everyone has followed. Yeah, his idea was term limits for one term of six years. Now, both these ideas go nowhere, but he firmly believed in a democratic process where people had a voice and could choose their own leaders. It's the embryonic idea of what USA becomes. Well, they've still got the Electoral College, amazingly so. Yeah, but... But the idea of term limits is...

Yeah, that eventually comes in. I mean, you could argue Washington did that originally, but he was pushing forward for the official. Yeah, yeah. He truly believes in his country's democracy and all the fears of him becoming a military dictator. It doesn't happen because he strongly believes in the democracy that he's running. I mean, dictators usually get groups of people

and forcefully march their way and kill them. I mean, he didn't do that. We'll get to that. Right. Okay, so other things. He recognised the newly independent nation of Texas in his last days of office. Texas! Yeah, Texas is coming along, but just not enough time to talk about that in this episode.

There's a place in Texas called Jackson, isn't there? Probably. Yeah. Wouldn't surprise me. Might not be Texas. Yeah, we'll discuss that more in a later episode. But just know that's starting to kick off. He was a war hero to many in this country.

Obviously, that's a big thing for him. Whether you'd include that in statesmanship, I don't know. I think it adds to his mystique as a politician, as a leader. Yeah. He stopped the talk of South Carolina leaving the Union, albeit in a slightly despot-y way. But he sorted out what could have been a break from the Union and the Civil War. So he does that.

So, I mean, that's his good. Then you've got bad. I've only put four points down. There are too many. They get increasingly bad. First of all, he gave all his friends higher positions in government. All his talk of people choosing, he did just hand out jobs to his friends. But he also showed he could get rid of his friends.

Yeah, that's true, because he believed in rotation of people in power, and that was his defence exactly. But other people said, no, this is you getting rid of the old gun and putting in your own friends. Oh, yeah. So there's that. Second point, sorry, there's only three points, not four points. And the second of the three points,

he single-handedly destroyed the economy of the country because he didn't like the Federal Bank, which led to the panic of 1837 which you could argue is an oversimplification of things obviously but we're going to do that anyway yeah that's what we do yeah and that's not good that's really not good no because it goes on one person's opinion yeah so you've got a leader listening for their opinion rather than the views of experts and it never ends up well. Yeah. And the expert view was to let the bank stay. And he just used his veto to get with the bank.

And the economy crashed. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. And then there's the small matter of forced death marches that he instigated, which isn't great. No. I feel that does overshadow. Actually, three of them sort of do overshadow any positive

yeah but then he perhaps been a war hero even then he's very dubious and yeah even stopping south carolina that's dubious as well i'm tempted to give him uh some points for his push for the country to become more democratic yeah he wanted more people to have a say in elections. And that was good. But like you say, everything else overshadows it so much. I can't give him many points for that. What are you going for?

I'm only going to give him two. Two? Yeah. I'm matching that exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. You know, morally, he was genuinely horrendous. Yeah. He believed in what he believed in.

Yeah. But it was quite awful. Yeah. But even if you morally agreed with him, which many people did at the time, you can't escape the fact that his bad decision destroyed the economy. So there we go. That's a total of four. Oh, dear. Disgrace.

Disgrace. Well, where to start really he killed people in jewels he threatened people he beat people with canes he ignored judgments from legal courts he ordered executions illegally he illegally invaded a country he systematically lied to the native american population and then was responsible for countless deaths during the Trail of Tears. You have to go a bit slower. A long list.

It's just, it's disgraceful. Some of them you can argue product of times. Yeah. The fact that he was in a duelling culture meant that he duelled but it was seen as a gentlemanly thing to do. But his enemies used it against him, so it couldn't have been that gentlemanly.

I'm guessing by this point he's edging towards a bit brutish. Yes, exactly. We're getting to the point where duels were seen a bit savage. We're just coming out of a period of time where it was seen as acceptable. But then equally you've got things that just, even at the time, were just downright, no, this is just wrong. Kangaroo courts and executions and invading a country illegally,

things like that. And then it's hard not to keep coming back to the death marches. Yeah. Yeah, so I must admit, though, what amazes me is that he didn't turn into a military dictator. No, he always had his moral democratic view on it. Yes, which my personal theory, I've not seen this anywhere, so I'm sure people could blow holes into this argument.

I think that's just his hatred of the British. America had a democracy, Britain didn't, so damn it it he wasn't going to be like Britain he was going to lead a democracy because he hated the way Britain did things I guess he'd been brought up that way a lot of people were at the time so that makes a lot of sense so yeah

anyway oh we're going to end up in minus numbers for the first time oh I don't know we'll see it's got to be a 10 for this I agree there's no way he can't get a 10.

So that is minus 20. So he's on, currently, minus 16. Yep. Silver screen. Okay, finally a round where he can probably pull out some points. I think he's got a lot of points in this. Right. Very quick rundown.

Miserable childhood. Yeah. His brother's dying. Him being beaten by British officers. Thr into a prisoner camp, catching smallpox. But also his mother dying. The son of his dad. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. You've got his dad dying whilst he's in the belly of his mother.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice start. You've got all that. Then him growing up, having fun as a student, burning things, breaking into houses that he did. Then you've got all the jewels that happened. Then meeting an already married Rachel, running off together. All that excitement. More jewels.

Brawls. More jewels. Then some war. Then a bit more war. The whole New Orleans thing. Then the whole business down in Florida, running for office, losing. The hard campaign. Rachel dying. Oh, you could make such an amazing episode out of that. Oh, losing. The hard campaign, Rachel dying.

Oh, you could make such an amazing episode out of that. Oh, that's a whole episode itself. Yes. And then, however, after that, oh, it would be a miserable thing to watch. I mean, once he becomes president, it's just political wrangling, the trail of tears. That could be a three episode. Yeah, which would just be... That could be filming itself, just like that.

Yeah, exactly. It would be miserable, but done well would be be that can be filming itself just yeah exactly it would be miserable but done well would be good so good that's good though it's good sometimes to film with sadness shinders next for example true my all-time favorite film i would say a film about his life his early life would be amazing yeah basically a film based on part one of our podcast would be amazing yeah yeah stop at new orleans that could be the end i would be amazing. Yeah. Basically a film based on part one of our podcast would be amazing. Yeah, yeah. Stop at New Orleans.

That could be the end. I would be more interested in the film part two. I think that would make a great... Well, I don't think you do it in one film. There's so much going on. Oh, yeah. It needs to be like a five-hour epic. The fact is, though,

despite the fact lots of it is morally dubious, some of it is outright horrifying, it is a fascinating, chaotic life that would be interesting to watch. Very interesting to watch. So I think almost four marks. Again, yeah, I don't think many presidents would have quite as an exciting life as this. No. Yeah, I'm going for four marks.

You're going for ten? I'm going for four marks. So I wrote ten by mistake and crossed it out again, but you're going for ten. No, I'm going for ten. So he's deleted his minus 20 yeah he has

any ideas what he looks like? have you seen pictures of Jackson before? um I may have done but my

my main image now is like it's like white hair with two cross guns over his chest oh yes you've seen my video of Jackson

right well here you go here's what he looks like that's his official portrait ooh big shock of white hair sticking out oh I love oh but Oh yes, you've seen my video. Right, well here you go. Here's what he looks like. That's his official portrait. Big shock of white hair sticking out. Oh, I love... But what draws you to this picture is his vampire cloak that he's wearing.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. Blood velvet red, which sticks off. Died with the blood of his enemies. Yeah, this massive collar on it that just sticks off. It might be the age of the painting because all the paintings degrade, but his

black gown that he's wearing is jet black. It's like velvet black. No real distinction. And then the red sweeping... If it wasn't for the fact that Calhoun was around at the same time, he'd clearly look like the villain.

Oh, yeah. Look at the widow's peak. Imagine that dinner party where Calhoun and Jackson were arguing with each other in their toasts. This is what those two looked like. They both looked like supervillains. They did. They really did. They really did.

So, yeah, I quite like that. I'm going to go for eight on this one. I'm going to go for eight. I'm less impressed. I'm going to go for six. Okay, that's six. So that is 14, which we need to divide by four. Which gives him a score of 3.5 for canvas ability.

But now we've scored him, because we have to score on the official portrait. Do you want to see a photograph of him? Photograph? Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. We've reached that period in history. Wow, yes. wow obviously he's really old at this point so this is just before he dies so it's tombstone is it oh my goodness yeah he's

got the hair though he's still got his hair it's still still jutting out like it was when he was younger but he looks like a very old man wow he's wearing spectacles not actually the first photograph i could have shown you a photograph of John Quincy Adams. Oh, you. Which I just missed that he had a photograph. So there is an earlier president with a photograph. That's amazing. There you go. Photograph of Andrew Jackson.

That's really cool. Yeah. It makes him real. Yeah, it does. It's the first time on a podcast we've had someone with a photograph. That is true. This is a milestone. Yeah.

I mean, we thought we found a photograph of uh pompey the great at one point but that turned out to be your uncle yeah i paid like 30 000 pounds i know i know are you looking up john quincy's photograph oh yeah there he is there's john quincy's photograph wow he's in a chair it's like a foreign portrait and everything yeah it's like they had furniture back then they had trousers trousers i know trousers ugly shoes like one lace they're like ribboned up that's amazing so there we go we've got photographs from now on probably might miss a couple i'm not sure but there there we go right okay he does quite well here no he served full terms, so he gets two points there.

Someone tried to kill him, so he gets a point. Yay, first one. Yeah, first one. And his election, if you take an average of his two electoral college wins, he won 72.4%, which puts him in the landslide category, giving him two points. Oh. That's five out of a possible six bonus points. So his total score is what?

Seven, twelve point five. Let me recount that. Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve point five, yeah. So that is our lowest scoring president, which is a bit of a shock, I think. Yeah, I think twelve point five is quite low. He's a very divisive president he's very popular in some areas some people think he was terrible um there's a portrait of him in the Oval Office

right now really oh yes but that disgrace gate just pulls him down quite frankly yeah so using our scoring system, he paid the cost. Yeah. So he's now our lowest ranking president. He probably would have been our highest if we'd have given him plus points for the Scray Scape. But we morally can't do that, can we? You can't praise people for killing other people. This is why we made the change in this series.

It's like I can't justify giving out bonus points for awful things that happened quite recently yeah bonus points for emperors doing weird things with horses that's fine but yeah it's a bit different this one anyway there's one more thing we need to decide though and it's going to be a tough one i American or American? I'm letting you talk first. This could obviously go one of two ways, because that's how the round works. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is it American or an American't? The thing is, if we give an American, are we praising him for what he did to those thousands of Native Americans that he killed?

Yeah. We're not. No. That's not the point of the podcast. We rate things on basically, that you killed. Yeah. We're not. No. That's not the point of the podcast. We rate things on basically, are you interesting? Yeah. On that grounds, I think he's highly interesting. Yeah.

I think he should be an American. He is the first Democratic, as in Democrat, with a capital D precedence. To which they're all proud of. He pushed for a more democratic society. He did some awful things. But it is undeniable that he shaped the country as he did them. Yeah.

He was a force to be reckoned with. I'll say this. I don't like the guy. No. There was very few points whilst learning about him did i feel a connection with him in fact it was only his his obvious devotion to rachel that humanized him yes oh and his very early life where some horrible things happened they were the only points where i went oh okay no i'm seeing a human being but you can see that journey as well.

You can go through all that terror at the beginning and you can see why you can be slightly disturbed. Yeah, exactly. It's a fascinating journey. It's not a pleasant journey. No. And it results in some horrific things. But there's a reason this is called the Jacksonian Age.

He defines the political movement around this time. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah yeah i'm tempted to say yes just because he was such a big force but that is in no way me saying that i condone any of condone many of his actions i agree yeah but he's interesting in the same way caligula got jean-acissart and i love the podcast. Exactly. Cara Keller. Didn't like the guy. No.

Tiberius as well. But he's definitely an interesting character. Yeah. So on that note, I think, yeah, well done, Jackson, despite you being an awful human being. I think you get American. I wouldn't say you deserved it, but you earned it. So thank you very much for listening. Next time, Van Buren.

Oh, he sounds American. Well, the only American president whose English is not his first language. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. A little factoid before we start. See, back then, was it... Oh, we'll get into it. We'll get into it.

This episode's gone on long enough. We'll talk about that next time. Okay, I'll wait. So, that is our episode next time. Don't forget to download us on Podbean, iTunes, and Stitcher. And. We'll get into it. This episode's gone on long enough. We'll talk about that next time. Okay, I'll wait. So that is our episode next time. Don't forget to download us on Podbean, iTunes and Stitcher. And follow us on Facebook, Twitter. And please leave reviews on iTunes. That would be hugely helpful if you're listening.

And just before we go, a congratulations to Bree from Pontifax for getting married. It's our first recording since she got married. That is all we need to say. Thank you for listening. Until next time, goodbye. Goodbye. Right, order, order. Okay, right, here we go. We must come up with something.

Something to celebrate Jackson being president. Like throw a party or something. Something exciting. What about Jefferson, sir? He got a massive cheese. Oh, right. Now that's interesting. Keep talking, yeah.

It was as big as a sheep. A massive cheese? A giant brie. Ooh. We could do something like that, couldn't we, chaps? 1,200 pounds, sir. Mightily impressive. As big as a massive sheep. Wow.

Quite a large sheep, yes. A beast sheep, sir. Okay. No, let's do that. Right. Well, obviously not cheese. Cheese has been done. Well, of course.

Although it would be easy and good for our economy, sir. How is it originality, man? Come on, American dream. Let's create something and let's make it big. What can we make? A large sandwich. Not sure it's really... They're very fashionable in Europe, sir.

But it's not really a thing, is it, a sandwich? It's multiple things. What would we put? I'm not saying it. That's true. The tomato will rot. How about a Victoria sponge? Who?

A Victoria... Oh, I don't know. It just came to me. Leave your sponges out of it, man. Right. Any more ideas? A massive sausage. Not really the image

we're looking for. I'm sure we can make quite a large one, sir. That might be so, but I can see the headlines. How about a flan? I'm sorry, a flan. Is that the best we can do? A giant flan? There must be

something. Come on, no idea is a stupid idea. Anything. Come on, spitball. A giant quiche. The local farm's been producing loads of eggs recently. We could do a giant quiche. That's no better than the flan idea. Come on, come on, keep going. A hat.

What? That's not even edible, man. It is. We make it out of pastry. Pastry hat. No, we're not having pastry hats. Oh, oh no, I've got it. Two giant meatballs.

Oh, no, no, that's as bad as a sausage. Sorry, forget that. A big ham. Oh, a big ham. Oh, I haven't got a big cow, though. Oh, no, no, that's as bad as a sausage. Sorry, forget that. A big ham. Oh, a big ham. Oh, I haven't got a big cow, though. Oh, yes, no, of course. Certainly may. Ah, my brother down in Tennessee, he's been breeding turkeys.

Oh, yes. And he's got a turkey that's up to 3,000 pounds, sir. I don't believe it. No, nor do I. It's probably a lie, but I can put in a word. Put in a word. Bring the giant turkey. We'll see if that works out. In the meantime, though, I think backup ideas.

Potato. Potato. Big potato. What if we cut the potato into long strips, deep fry them? Like the French do. Yes. Yes. Fried French's.

They're quite small, though. Yeah, it's not very exciting. Old. I just don't know. I don't say. What about a giant cigar? Still in sausage territory there. I just don't know. Cup of tea.

Giant cup of tea. It'd go off the milk. We'd just curdle. Oh, British connotations. Of course. He does hate the British. We all do. Yes, the stupid men with stupid accents. Gosh, darn it. He does hate the British. Ah, we all do. Yes, the stupid men with stupid

accents. Gosh, darn it. You know what, Chad? I think we're going to have to go with the cheese. Oh, Gable, are you sure? It's not original, no, but if we make it bigger than the last one, I think we could put Chad and Gable's cheesemongers on the map, damn it. Tell you

what, bear with me here. How about if we put a belt on it? Oh. He wrote, should Providence once more permit us to meet, I am solemnly. Solemly. Solemly. Solem. Don't pronounce the N. Solemly. Solemly. There we go, I go I go I am so solemn solemnly what's wrong with me solemnly solemnly yeah I am solemn I am solemnly I'm solemnly I'm solemnly resolved I'm solemn little bit of bleh solemnly I can say it on its own yeah I am solemnly solemnly solemnly I can say it Joe Mises I am solemnly resolved I