American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 8.1 Martin Van Buren

Episode Date: September 29, 2018

This week we visit the sleepy village of Kinderhook and see what is going on there. What’s this? A tavern with an ambitious, well dressed boy tending bar? With dreams of re-creating his beloved Republican party? See how this boy becomes the ‘Little Magician’ and places the First Democratic President in the White House.

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Van Buren Part 1. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalals Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is part 8.1. We're on a brand new president. It's Van Buren. Ooh, he doesn't sound American or English. We will find out where the name comes from. Yeah. Yes. And here we are with our new microphone set up.

Ooh, we are, yeah. Yeah, if you only listen to our President's series, this might sound exciting. We've got new microphones and improved sound quality. If you listen to our Roman podcast, you'll know this is, what, the fourth time we've announced that this is going to work? And we've never got it to work,

but my fingers are crossed this time. I think this is going to work. This is the one, Jamie. You just know there's going to be, like, a high-pitched squealing in the background or some sort of crunching sound The high pitched squealing will be me if this setup doesn't work properly

I'm confident Jamie I am You've said that many times I know but I'm confident this time again I'm sure it will work Hopefully you our listeners have listened to our interview episode we did last time

with the wonderful people from People Be POTUS. Oh, it was great, yeah. Yes. I knew it anyway. Well, we talked about changing some of our scores based on what they said and we decided not to. No.

No. Possibly Jackson deserved a couple more in statesmanship, but... Nah. No, you're sticking with your guns aren't you unless we make a genuine mistake about something or miss out something really big and obvious they're staying the same so any expectations on martin so his first name martin van buren yes um i don't know because he's following jackson and from what people versus poter said we go through

a bit of a slump now in terms of economy yeah and either it's going to be van buren's fault or a result of what jack Jackson did and be his fault. But he's got to put up with it. Okay. That's my only knowledge of who this person is. Fair enough. Let's do this then, shall we? We open on a river.

So it's sort of fade, fade. Yeah, no, fade really zoomed in on the water and then it's panning up. Yeah, okay. Can I see mountains in the distance? Oh, how... What's our landscape? Yeah, I'm going to say mountains in the distance? Oh. What's our landscape? Yeah, I'm going to say mountains in the distance.

Where was it born? I'm giving it away. Yeah. Is it planes? Is it what? A plane. We're in New York, the state, all right? We're on the Hudson River.

Right, okay. Yeah? Yeah. Right, you got that? Yes. I mean, I've got a whole thing that was building up to that just to reveal it bit by bit. But no, that's fine.

I'll just say it. I'll just say it. All right say it no we're on the hudson river yeah right you got that is it cinematic in your head it's pretty cinematic yeah good right there's an english explorer working for the dutch east india trading company the dutch yes yeah we weren't the only ones to have an east india trading company but dutch had one as well i know they're big traders uh and big empire builders as well yes they were surprisingly big empire this was back place back in 1609 this is wow yeah so this man his his name's his name's hudson and he's uh going up this big river his name actually hudson yeah yeah oh yeah that's nice what a coincidence oh because normally when they discover rivers they normally name it after the benefactors who paid them. Yeah, no, no.

You name it after yourself. That's just arrogant. Yes. Yeah, so he goes up the river, looks around a bit, and then comes back down, and the river's named after him. Oh, okay. Yeah. Now, flash forward 30 years.

Oh, oh, that was scary. That was. I'm there. Lots of flashing skies. Yeah, the sun and moon just flying over each other. Good, good. Because we're now 30 years later. We see the river on a hot summer's day. Nice, yeah. Yeah, the sun and moon just flying over each other. Good, good. Because we're now 30 years later. We see the river

on a hot summer's day. Nice, yeah. Yeah, that's nice. A man is travelling up the river with several others heading to a Dutch settlement near modern-day Albany. Albany.

Heard of Albany. Capital state of New York. Is it? Yeah, New York's not the capital of anything, not even its own state. It's just a massive city. Okay.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting, yeah. But no, this is Albany. But near Albany, back then, was a small town. A village, really, not even a town. Dutch settlement, we'll call it. Anyway, this man's name is Cornelius.

That's a great name. It is a good name. And he had signed into a contract of indentured servitude. So, yeah, it's what the rich people did. You come over here, work for me, and then you earn your way out. Yeah, exactly. And you can live here afterwards. As long as you're not dead. Yeah, which you probably will be.

Which many were. But not Cornelius. He makes it through. He does. I can't think of how good that name is. Cornelius. It's good, isn't it? If I had a little tortoise, I'd call it Cornelius. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think of how good that name is, Cornelius. Cornelius, it's good, isn't it? If I had a little tortoise, I'd call it Cornelius. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I don't think he was a tortoise, but Cornelius was from Amsterdam.

Ah, that explains the shell. Yes, exactly. Oh, no, sorry, I've made that up. He was from the Netherlands. He wasn't from Amsterdam at all. He was from the Netherlands. Amsterdam is in the Netherlands. It is, but I know for a fact he wasn't from Amsterdam.

He was from a place called Belsmussen. And there is no way I'm pronouncing that correctly. I was going to say. Bjormundsen? That'll do. That'll do. Yeah. Now, as was common in the New World, where you could reinvent yourself.

You could be who you want. And new surnames were just thrown together from wherever people came from. Yeah. Yeah. So people would call each other, I don't know, Dutch because they're from Holland. That's why you get all the names after traders like Slater and Turner. Yeah, exactly.

Now obviously they didn't call each other Dutch because they were all Dutch immigrants in this area. That'd be so confusing. It would be very confusing. Dutch, hello! Not you, the other one. Hello. Yeah, Cornelius. That's a good accent. Cornelius needs a surname.

Apparently he didn't like whatever his old one was. So he becomes Cornelius Van Buren. Oh, so he's... Named after the place he was from. Björlemundsson. Ah. Any relationship between him and the future president? Yes, bizarrely enough. Wow.

There is. That's convenient. It's almost like you've told that story to set up a family link. Yes, exactly. It's almost like a plan in advance. Wow. It is. It's good.

Anyway, right. You ready to flash forward again? Oh, no. Hang on. Yeah, go on. 150 years this time. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, yeah.

It's a big one. You ready? Yeah. Go. Go. Oh. Oh. Oh.

As you can see, the Van Buren family has grown quite a lot. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I've counted 47. Not bad. I have no idea if that's correct, but let's say it is. There are now 47 Van Buren's. Yeah, the family grew. It remained fairly isolated over the decades. They lived in a Dutch community in the New World,

not really interested in wider politics. They're just there. They're in their village. They're living their life. Getting on. Getting on with things. This place was a settlement called Kinderhook. Named apparently because some children were playing there originally.

Kinder as in children. And Friday the 13th. Hook. Children on hooks. Maybe something horrific then happened. Yes, there were some children on hooks. It was James Formasca style. Yeah, exactly. That on hooks. Maybe something horrific then happened. Yes, there were some children on hooks. It was James Formasca style. Yeah, exactly. That's nice.

Yeah, and they changed the story afterwards because it was a bit grim. Yeah. Anyway, Kinderhook was apparently like an island in terms of keeping to itself. They didn't really talk to the outsiders. To the point that the families in Kinderhook tended to intermarry,

shall we say. Is this where the sort of deliverance comes from? Not quite. It's not quite that bad. A number of the Van Burens are on record to marrying other Van Burens. Well, you know. Don't want to spread your genes too far.

Exactly. You just want to turn down the hem at the bottom. Yes. Now, according to Martin, his family did not marry anyone other than a direct immigrant from Holland until his son. So it was a very Dutch community, not intermingled with people nearby. Now, it's only a small village, as you can see, when you were counting the Van Buren's just a moment ago.

Yeah. We've only got 20 dwellings, apparently. Wow. Yeah. Seven people. That's pretty accurate. Oh, no. Wow.

You've got the Van Burens, but you've also got the Van Allens, the Van Shacks, and the Van Nesses, who were Dutch-Scottish, I can only assume. Who is a family that lives in the house? Yeah. Shacks! Yeah, you've just got lots of people resembling Shaft.

They're the Van Shacks. Lots of Scottish people, the Van Nessers. And lots of accountants, the Van Allens. Oh, yes. Yeah. And then the Van Pjords. Yeah, looking a bit scared. Yeah. So you've got farms with cows and chickens on. Oh, look at Daisy Cow.

You've got fields of wheat. Look at that field of wheat. I'm loving the accent. I'm sure not insulting at all. Oh, yeah, it's not racist. Yeah, life revolved around the harvest. You got up with the cock and you went to bed with the cockerel, Jamie. And you went to bed when the sun set.

The simple life. Men would drink in the tavern. Children played in the street. Everything's lovely. Apart from, like, the embedded racism. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the incest.

Yeah. Rampant, rampant incest. Yeah, and all the death because everyone was dying of disease. Hello, mother sister. You look ill. Is this was dying of disease and, yeah. Hello, mother sister. You look ill. Is this happening all episode? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay.

That's how this president's going to speak, damn it. Well, everyone spoke Dutch, as you're absolutely correct in suggesting. So English with a weird accent. According to you. Well, when they spoke English, it was their second accent. So heavily accented, most of them. Ah, hello. We apologise to all our Dutch listeners. Unless that happens, bizarre coincidence, to be a perfect

Dutch accent. I bet it is. In which case, we're just proud of ourselves. If it's not, however, it's all Jamie. I'll take the four for that. It's fine. Yeah. So as you can imagine, in this village, nothing changed quickly. It was roughly the same for Cornelius' grandson

a man named Abraham Van Buren as it was for Cornelius himself yeah so Abraham that's what we're on to now Abraham Van Buren

you can imagine what he looks like oh big sideburns yeah big top hat you're just thinking of Lincoln aren't you yeah

yeah no you can't be him because we're gonna have Lincoln later okay is he like Abraham father of the Jews then no you need another one there aren't you? Yeah. Yeah, no, you can't be him because we're going to have Lincoln later. Okay, is he like Abraham, father of the Jews then? No, you need another one. There aren't any others.

There's this one, Abraham Van Buren. Hello. Just picture a farmer, all right? All right, got it. Yeah, you got him. White shirt, quite muscular, using a scythe on the wheat. Yeah, there we go, there we go.

I love to go to the weed. That's what he says. Yes, he does. He was a carefree man, there we go. I love to go to the weed. That's what he says. Yes, he does. He was a carefree man, apparently. The kind of man who wouldn't mind if someone was mocking his accents. He wasn't great with money, however. No. He grew up during the build-up to the Revolution.

So all the problem with the tax without representation stuff was going on. He was all for the idea of America throwing off the shackles of Britain and becoming independent. Yeah. But despite all the world events happening around them, Abraham, like most in Kinderhook, followed the same path. And in

1776 of all years, he married Maria Van Allen. So one of the accountants. Out of the family. Oh yeah, out of the family. But still, like, in the accountants. Out of the family? Oh yeah, out of the family, but still in the community. Oh, okay. Yeah. So the parents weren't happy, but they'd accept it.

I don't think that was frowned upon. I think staying in Kinderhook was just fine. Yeah. Abraham was nearly 40 by this point. He was perhaps saving himself for the right lady, the right neighbour. Is that why he farmed so yeah stressfully yes come on well maria had just become a widow so maybe maybe they really liked each other and was just waiting for her husband to die who knows we don't actually have many details of maria unfortunately we know she already had three children when they married and then when abraham

and maria got together they quickly got to the business of making more children. Another boy was born, and then another, and then the third in 1782. And this one is Martin. And this makes Martin van Buren the first president to be born a citizen of the United States. He's also the first president and the only president not to speak English

as his first language, because he grew up speaking Dutch. Of course, yeah. Yeah, interesting. Anyway, three more children follow, meaning that Martin has eight siblings. Wow. He's very much the middle of the pack. But by this point, Abraham and Maria had taken ownership of a tavern in Kinderhook. It was the tavern.

And they were doing alright. They weren't rich, but they were making enough to get by. Yeah. Kinderhook was on the way between New York City and Albany, so it was a... It had some through traffic. Halfway house.

Yeah, exactly. And the tavern is where some people would stop, so they were able to make a bit of money. Yeah, that sounds good. It was a one-and-a-half-story wooden tavern, apparently. I'm not sure how you get one-and-a-half-story. That's an architecture thing, and I don't know about that. Probably means like a...

Ground floor and a roof. Yeah, that you can go in. Or maybe they just got bored halfway through building the second floor. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? So they have to really stoop when you go to... Yeah.

Hello, can I rent a room, please? You'll have to stoop. Yes. You just crawl to your bed. Yeah your bed yeah yeah trouble is you can't open the door because it'll make the door big enough to fit the ceiling oh the door's normal size oh yeah oh that's just poor design i know it opens inwards so it's even yeah how they fit it i'll never know well there were 16 family members in this bizarre town wow 16 16 yes the the van bjorn's those they were working together,

the extended family working in the tavern. They also had six slaves. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Slavery nowhere near as common in New York at this time as the South, but New York did have slavery. So, yeah, about a quarter of Kinderhook owned slaves, apparently, and the Van Burens were amongst them.

So, there you go. Bad Van Burens. Well, the tavern was often busy with locals getting drunk or travellers. Getting drunk. Getting drunk. Yeah, like I say, passing between Albany and New York City. At one point, the great Aaron Burr stopped by. Ooh.

Yeah. He stopped the night, he did. Oh, yeah. Did he? He stopped the night in the tavern, Jeremy. Just put a pin in that. Ooh. Yeah. He stopped the night, he did. Oh, yeah. Did he? He stopped the night in the tavern, Jeremy. Just put a pin in that. Okay.

Yeah. Also, another time, Alexander Hamilton stopped. Oh. Yeah, he stopped the night, but don't put a pin in that. That's not important. Oh, I'm getting a flash.

I don't know whether what I'm remembering is from the episode with Aaron Burr where he has a duel, doesn't he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We were talking about, I'm either getting mixed up with his story or Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett. I can understand why you get those two confused. Yeah. We'll see, we'll see. Yeah, okay, go on. Just remember Aaron Burr stopped the night one night.

Okay. Okay. Anyway, Little Martin, or Matt as he was known. Ugh. Ugh? You don't short Martin to Matt. It'd be Mart, wouldn't it? Or night. Okay. Okay. Anyway, Little Martin, or Matt, as he was known. Er. Er? You don't short Martin to Matt. It'd be Mart, wouldn't it? Or Marty.

Yeah, well, they go for Matt. Matthew's not Matthew. Anyway, Matt, who was educated in a little schoolhouse in the village. And then, after school,

he'd either help on the farms nearby or he'd help his father in the tavern and listen to the talk of politics. This is where his interest grew. Yeah, his father in the tavern and listen to the talk of politics the way the interest grew yeah his father had become a firm jeffersonian republican by this time

and was instilling that into his son martin also played games in his spare time one story perhaps not true we don't know um but he'd like to play lawyers and he'd set up 10 law courts and they'd argue with each other and he'd stand on tables and just shout at the jury. Nice. Yeah. Because he did that with teddy bears. Yeah, probably. And toys.

Yeah. That's nice. That is nice, isn't it? So as Martin grew, so did his new country. The state of New York was doing very well after the war, and new towns were springing up nearby, increasing traffic in the village. Some more and more travellers are coming from Boston, from New York City, they're all leaving newspapers behind, which Martin would read. Also, travellers meeting in Kinderhook would increasingly be discussing the news of the

country. So a real feeling of growth had started, an idea that things were happening. However, by the age of 13, Van Buren had to drop out of school to help run the family business. Help run the family business. Ooh. Help run the pub. Yeah. The family's still finding it hard to make ends meet, despite the increase in traffic. So Martin would grow to resent this lack of education at this age, stating that he had to play catch-up for most of his life.

Aw. A year later, however, he took an apprenticeship with Kinderhook's most esteemed lawyer, a man named Francis Sylvester. Sylvester was a member of the elite of the region and was a staunch Federalist. This is back when Federalists were strong. Yes. This is the rise of John Adams Day. Martin, obviously, with his young Republican ideals,

working for a Federalist, we'll see how it goes. Anyway, he takes the job. His job to begin with was to sweep the rooms, build up the fires, keep the office in order, and then in return he got the basics of law training. So that's the plan. He turns up on his first day wearing his very best clothes, which was coarse linen, homespun wool,

and, I don't know, a straw hat, by the sounds of things. And carrying a pitchfork. Yeah. And his best banjo. Exactly. But I'm guessing, though, when he gets there, everyone else is not wearing those things, and he feels a bit shabby.

Well, yes and no. He gets there, and he starts doing his job. He cleans the rooms. He sweeps out the fireplace. He puts the office in order. But obviously, the more you do that, the dirtier your clothes will become. Yeah. Especially fireplaces, all the cold.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So he ends the day looking a bit grubby. Then Sylvester, who is middle-aged. He's not an ancient man, but would have seemed a lot older to the young Martin here. Maybe his 50s. Probably a bit younger. I couldn't find out. Mid- 50s. Probably a bit younger.

Mid-40s. Let's say that. 40, 40, 44. I'm going to say the 41. 41? That's what I'm going to say. All right. I might be off there,

but I know something about his father, so his father must be young enough to do that. We'll get to that in a moment. So yeah, Sylvester walks into the room, sees this grubby little teenager in his tatty clothings, and disapprovingly comments on the boy's appearance. Ha! You look a mess, boy! Yeah, pretty much.

Martin was humiliated, and this is where he changes his life. Oh. Oh, yeah. What's he do? Well, he spends the next two days searching the whole region for people who had the right clothes to sell. Now, I couldn't find out how he could afford this, so presumably he spent all his savings on this.

Or borrowed. Or borrowed. But he scrapes the money together. He spends a couple of days that perhaps he had off. And when he arrived at Sylvester's office next time, he was wearing the exact same outfit that the Alderman had been wearing whilst chastising Martin. Nice.

And from this point on, Martin Van Buren is known to dress sharply. Bit of a dandy almost. All because of one moment, all because of a humiliating event. Apparently so, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean probably in real life there's more to it than that, but we have this little anecdote

early on in his life, and yeah, apparently he was a sharp dresser for the rest of his life. How sharp? Like 80s sharp? What, like... Neon. Neon pink blazer with rolled up sleeves. Massive lapels. Well, we'll get into what he dressed later on when we have some description. You can make up your mind then.

So anyway, despite this slight hiccup at the start, Martin was soon impressing Sylvester, and not only Sylvester, but also his associates. This young man seemed to have an ability to learn quickly. It turned out that Martin was also very good at talking to people. People seemed to open up to him. People listened to him. So the lawyer started to talk about Martin joining the Federalist Party. We could use some young sparky people like you in the Federalist Party. Martin wasn't too impressed by this idea. Well I know he's a

Republican. Exactly. That's what they're called, yeah. Exactly, daddy at home in the tavern was a Republican. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, exactly. Do you think he got good at talking because, like, working in a bar you're talking to clients all day

I get the feeling yeah you're there he was working in the bar chatting to everyone a bit like Cheers yeah like working for the federation but they're like wiping down the surface then someone will pull up a little stool throw him a little glass yeah exactly he learnt at an early age how to

polish a glass and listen. So tell me about your problems. I thought we'd got away from the accents, but no, it's back. It's staying for two episodes. Okay, I'll accept that. So anyway, Martin stays with Sylvester for the next year, and then Sylvester's father

wins a seat on the State Senate. So all the extended Salvesta family celebrate this federalist victory. They throw a party. They open up to the whole village. Toasts were had. Songs sung.

Drinks drank. Everyone's having a good time. I'm guessing because Martin is a Republican, he wouldn't be happy with that. Yeah, he stays in his room. He refuses to go down. Sylvester himself comes to visit him. Are you okay there?

Come and have a drink with us. We're celebrating. Martin says that he couldn't celebrate a Federalist victory, which you would have thought would just shut down that conversation. But also, he was like, you work. You work for us. Yeah. Well, actually, Sylvester,

apparently you get the feeling he was a bit drunk and feeling a bit friendly. He spent about an hour just sat on the end of Martin's bed trying to convince him to become a Federalist. Let me tell you another thing. Yeah. Because you and me,

we're the same. Right? We're the same. I was just like you at your age, at my age. At my age same I was just like you at your age at my age I was just like me and at your age you're just like you

it was like that what do you want to boot is that Dutch or Canadian both so we have a Canadian president I'm sure what happens soon. Okay. I'll be the excellent for that as well. Well, eventually Martin turned

around and said, look, I'm never going to become a Federalist. Sylvester held Martin's hand and told him he would never bring up the subject again and they would remain friends. Isn't that nice? Is that the alcohol talking? Probably. Oh, we're best friends.

I love you, man. All this politics, it is way too... Yeah, that was the conversation. Nice. Anyway, so Martin continues training under Sylvester once Sylvester's sobered up slightly. It was not long until Martin was able to sum up his first case in front of a jury.

So he's doing very well. But he was gaining a bit of a reputation, shall we say, in Federalist circles for being a bit stubborn. And his character and his judgment was often attacked. And things continued this way throughout his late teens. But then, just before he was 20... So 19. Yeah.

Just before he was 20, he got an opportunity. It was clear to all that Martin would definitely do better under a Republican lawyer. It's where his loyalties lie. And it just so happened that the Van Ness family had two brothers doing very well for themselves. They were also Republican.

And they took a huge interest in this young clerk. Their names were John and William P. Van Ness. John, we don't need to worry about too much, but William P. Van Ness is now most famous for having his name mentioned in one line in the musical Hamilton. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

We'll see why in a moment. And all the Hamilton listeners who listen to our podcast are now probably furiously thinking, what song's that? Which one's he in? Unless they just know it straight away. It's suddenly got really popular. Loads of people who I know online, who I've met in the past, you know,

they go, oh, I've got tickets to go and see Hamilton. I'm dead excited about that. I'm dead excited. I'm going in four weeks. You know about it. But these people, I don't know, because it's popular, is that why they're excited? Because it's incredibly good. I don't know how it's not, though.

Oh, it totally is. Anyway, we'll see what song he pops up in in a moment. Martin had gotten over to brothers when he helped campaign for John Van Ness to win a seat for Congress, which he'd had. And then, as a reward to Martin for helping out, he was given a job with William P. Van Ness in New York City so he's heading to the big city the big apple William was a young man himself but doing very well for himself in the city

making a name for himself he was this was mainly because he was very close with the vice president himself Aaron Burr he's the one that stayed in the hotel. Oh, he did stay in the hotel. Wait for it. Wait for it.

It's coming. Martin probably enjoyed the move. I mean, suddenly he's nearly 20. He's in the big city. He's surrounded by big names that share his beliefs. He's often in the presence of the vice president himself. Wow. So suddenly things are big.

Things are happening for him. Yeah. And because he was quite often in the presence of the vice president himself, people started to notice something a bit odd, shall we say. But they'd look at Aaron Burr talking to the likes of Van Ness, and then they'd look over at young Martin. They look awfully similar, some people said. Suspiciously so, other people said.

Now, I should probably point out here, most historians just scoff at the idea that Martin Van Buren was actually the illegitimate son of Aaron Burr. But the rumours certainly spread around back then. That's amazing. So we need to make up our own minds. Oh, absolutely. And then it becomes historical fact. So, here

we go. In favour of the theory, Burr is known to have stopped at the tavern of the Van Burens at some point. Yeah. Burr was also known to have got to know a number of women who were not his wife,

and he's also known to have had illegitimate children. So this was not unusual behaviour for him. Also, Burr and Van Buren looked very similar, and apparently had similar mannerisms. Yeah. Against the theory. Just because he stopped at the tavern at some point does not mean that it was at the right time,

and it certainly doesn't mean that he got to know Van Buren's mother. No, I mean, if he... Because you mentioned that Aaron Burr had stayed after Martin had... Well, we're not sure when he stayed. It's hard to pin down. So, yeah, who knows? Other thing against the theory, Burr was never a particular supporter of Van Buren, or vice versa.

So it's not like they were looking out for each other at all. That's true. Yeah, so what do you think? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm involved with this one. I don't care how unlikely it is. We are saying definitively that... Historical fact.

Yeah, Van Buren is definitely Aaron Burr's son. Anyway, Martin then passes the bar and moves home. So he's done his stint in the big city. He's had his fun. He's back home. So when you pass the bar, that's when you graduate being a lawyer. That's when you're officially a lawyer, isn't it? Yeah.

So then why would you... Oh, I guess to open your own business. It's like passing a degree and then, ah, screw this. I'm going to do something else. We'll go back to farming. I like farms. Meh. Well, he moves home and that's exactly what he does.

Not farming. He starts his own law business. Yeah, exactly. He's moving up in the world. He opens up his own law business with his brother-in-law, which is nice. Yeah. And then on the side, he's just doing some political campaigning. He's still very much into his politics.

And soon afterwards, a vote came up. Burr was running for the governorship of New York. Now, despite the links to the Van Nesses, who obviously fully supported Burr, Martin voted for the more popular Lewis. The Van Nesses were outraged. Well, we looked after you, so you should vote for our man. So they were outraged with him. Did they private vote?

No, not back then. You'd stand up and you'd declare it publicly. Oh. Yeah. The Van Nesses were outraged, but none more than William's father. So Daddy Van Ness, as they called him. Yeah. The Van Nesses were outraged but none more than William's father. So Daddy Van Ness as they called him.

Yeah. Yeah. He was really disappointed with young Martin. Pop. Pop. Yeah.

Pop Van Ness. Pop Van Ness. Yeah. Well it was not long after this that Martin got some shocking news. William Van Ness had some need of some

legal help. Why? I hear you wonder? Oh. Because the vice president himself, Aaron Burr, had just shot and killed Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Burr's second had to be none other than William Van Ness. Oh, the web is joining up.

And those of you playing the Witch Hamilton song game, it was the second to last song the penultimate song you could call it that the world oh i'm doing this off the top of my head the world was wide enough i think it's called that so there you go well done if you got that right you got you got some hamilton points there and they go towards tickets you can trade them in a ticket offer yeah trust me just just turn up. They do accept them. You've just got 10. I know the tickets are $75, but I got some tickets ranking points. Can I just pay 60?

Yeah, yeah. You only get 10 for that. Oh. You get 10 points every time you notice a Hamilton reference because there has been one every single episode we've done so far. You're just looking at me. Yeah. I didn't do it on purpose,

but every time I edit, I go, that's just a line from Hamilton. I think they're so ingrained in me now. You know your script you read from, is that just the narrative of the Hamilton? Yeah, it is. I've just got Hamilton lyrics here. I wonder why it rhymes so well. So anyway, back to the story. So William Van Ness just wants some legal help.

Things like, if I am arrested for being Burr's second, can I make bail? Can you come and help me make sense of this? I don't know. Yeah. So Martin turns up at the Van Ness house. He walks up to the front door. And the front door was one of these doors that are cut through the middle. So the bottom was closed, but the top was open.

Oh, like an old-style western thing. Yeah, yeah, a bit like that. Not saloon doors. No, I know what you mean. Like a barn door. Yeah. Or in Friends, where Joey accidentally saw Chandler's bedroom. Like one of those, yes, exactly.

Bedroom door. Yeah, so apparently they were popular back then. Anyway, Martin walks up to the front door, and he sees William's father, the one who's not happy with him, sitting inside reading a newspaper, with his back to him right up against the door so the light would shine on the paper so he could read it.

Makes sense. Yeah. Now because the door was half closed, Martin didn't just walk in, but he greeted the elder man. The elder man kind of looked slightly, realised who it was and just carried on reading his newspaper. All burn. Yeah, all burn.

In the end, Martin had to knock the knocker on the door, which is literally like inches away from the old man, to get a response from William, who comes along, lets Martin in, just apologising for his grumpy old father. Martin looks back and apparently the old man is just smirking to himself reading a newspaper, which is nice. To be true, you know when you

get old you're going to do exactly the same thing. Oh yeah, you totally would. It's the only fun of being old is being a curmudgeon. Yeah. Just warning you now, Van Boeren kept an autobiography. Okay. Yeah, I mean we've got first-hand accounts of many things he did in his life.

This is one of the most exciting stories in the autobiography the door thing oh yeah have you read it no but I've read bits and I've read highlights and yeah just compare it to Jackson yeah around

this time he's literally gutting a man for looking at him the wrong way and then you've just got the story of when an old man didn't say hello through a half door. I bet it ended with ellipses as well, didn't it? Probably, yeah. Wow. But just remember, he's dressed sharply whilst he's doing this. Massive lapels.

Massive lapels, yeah. Anyway, back in Kinderhook, Martin continues his life as a young lawyer and political activist. His new law firm is getting up on its feet. He's doing campaigning for Republicans in his spare time. He writes about how Federalists at the time used dirty tricks to gain votes in elections, such as, and I quote here, wagons were continually going and fetching the lame and the blind and the aged to the polls. So the Federalist would go and help the elderly and the infirm to get to the polling booths.

And the Republicans don't like that? No, apparently that was a dirty trick rather than just nice. That's weird. So anyway, we're at the point in history where Jefferson is the president. Martin thoroughly approved of the man. He was cock-a-hoop, he was history where Jefferson is the president. Martin thoroughly approved of the man. He was cock-a-hoop, he was, that Jefferson was now president. Good. One contemporary described Martin as a zealous follower, in fact, of Jefferson.

And I'll quote here, It absorbed his whole soul. It was exhibited on all occasions and under all circumstances. He's a bit of a Jefferson fanboy. It's never good to do that, though, because if they let you down in any way, either two things happen. Either you're crushed and distraught and go swing the opposite way, or you just deny it and say, no, it's fine.

Yeah, it's dangerous ground to tread, but that's where we are. There's also frustration as well. During a governor election in 1807, Martin put his support behind the popular Republican Daniel Tompkins. However, Martin watched as those Republicans in Kinderhook and the surrounding areas voted along personal lines. Oh, they do, don't they? Well, they're all Republicans, but they're voting for different Republicans,

depending on who owed who a favour, who was related to whom. So, I mean, that's a problem in itself, because then you're wanting to lose, because you're splitting your vote. You need to combine to one person. Exactly, and this was really frustrating, Martin, that if we all band together here, we could beat the Federalists, but you're all infighting. This is really annoying me.

See, that comes with selfish politicians that are infighting themselves. That's when this happens, rather than fighting for a common cause. This is pretty much Martin's thinking, yes. I like Martin. I think you and Martin would get on at this age. Hello. Hi. Could you stop doing that, please?

Doing what? The accent. Fine. Just stop now. That's exactly the conversation. Yeah. However, apart from politics and his job as a lawyer other things were occupying him at this time because martin had a cousin oh dear and his cousin had a daughter oh dear who were pretty much exactly the same age as as martin oh yeah so it's not a little bit better yeah yeah they're both around 24

at this time second cousin though i guess it's a it's first cousin once removed yes so it's cousin's dog you're getting far enough away there that it's not quite so bad they're not gonna be born with yeah fingers and this was certainly very normal in this day and age in these kind of areas um probably's probably why they died so frequently. Possibly. Not infection, it's just inbreeding. Poor genes. But this was Hannah Ho.

Hey. Hannah Ho, which sounds quite fun. Is that her first name or surname as well? Hannah Ho. Or name. As in, is Hannah her first name, Ho her second name? Yes. Yeah.

As in, spelt like a garden hoe. H-O-E. Yes. There we go. That's Hannah Ho. They grew up together. They probably played in the street together, maybe hopped out in the tavern together,

and they'd fallen in love. Aww. And in February of 1807, the two married in Catskill, which was another village nearby. And they wasted no time because nine months after their wedding, to the minute...

Oh, yeah. Oh, there's one. Ooh-hoo. Their first of four boys was born. Oh, yeah, four boys. Yeah, he will eventually, yes. Now, we know next to nothing about Hannah whatsoever. Apparently she was shy and she had blue eyes.

And she spoke with a Dutch accent. Hello. Yeah, Martin, not particularly so. But yeah, Hannah had a thick accent when she spoke English and obviously spoke Dutch at home. Martin called her Janet J. Janet J? Janet J?

There's no way I can pronounce this. It's Janet and then J E on the end Janet E Janet E yeah Janet E yeah probably

something like that yeah possibly sounds like Spanish though I apologise for the butchering of that but that's the Dutch name for Hannah apparently Janet G

Janet G yeah that's almost like he's in the room there you go that's pretty much all we know about her which possibly tells you something about her future Oh

Yeah No We'll get to it Right Anyway For now, happy families Because the Van Buren soon moved to the town of Hudson Which was an up-and-coming town

It's a good time to move to Hudson Because a steamboat had just made its way From New York City to Albany In an amazing 32 hours. Speedy back then. This made the riverside town of Hudson a more popular stop-off point between Albany and New York City than Kinderhook was. The trouble is with that record, though, it only takes like 12 minutes to walk.

Yeah. In New York City. Yeah, but it was still quick for a boat. It's a loopy river. No, in fact, obviously it's the opposite. This was impressive. Everyone was mightily impressed with how things were coming along technologically. I guess like when there was the HMS Great Britain,

it travelled from Britain to the US in quite a short amount of time. Yeah, world records were being broken all the time. This was an age of expansion. So they moved to the new town. Martin sets up his firm there and soon was doing very well for himself, making $10,000 a year. Wow.

Which back then is not bad at all. He was gaining a reputation for being one of the brightest young lawyers in the Hudson area. But there was one other man who fit this description, and this was Elisha Williams. Van Buren and Williams were immediate rivals. Williams one day saying,

poor little Matty. What about Van Buren? What a blessing it is to think that he is one of the greatest little fellows in the world. It would be cruel to compel this man to estimate himself correctly. Oh, not that I realise how dumb. Yeah, a bit condescending. That's horrible. It is horrible. Yeah, Williams was condescending. That's horrible. It is horrible.

Yeah, Williams was apparently tall, grand, and an elegant speaker with imagination and flair who gave, and I quote, life and variety to his arguments in court. Martin, however, was short, compact, who analysed the facts and compared testimonies until he had worked to a point that it was impossible to disagree with him.

So Van Buren, the methodical worker who gets there. Williams, more flamboyance. Well, she's good for a jury, though. Oh, yeah. You want the more interesting one. Quite possibly. But eventually, Martin's preparation and hard work wins out. And in the end, he was getting the better of his legal rival.

Yeah. Feeling his lack of education, he was able to buy the library of a dead lawyer. Which was handy. Yeah. And he was able to study by night, so he's genning up on all the education he lost as a child. He's starting to feel this.

I mean, he can... There's an A. Yeah. He can do all the lawyer stuff, but the difference between square and triangle is still confusing him. Yeah, when he tries he puts the shapes in the blocks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he just needs a bit of help. So he's there practising shapes each night.

But not everything was smooth sailing. He was offered a duel at this point in his career. Oh, yes. But as you can imagine, the duel didn't take place. This is Van Buren's story. If this was Jackson's story, the pistols would already be out. But no, this is Van Buren. They. If this was Jackson's story, the pistols would already be out. But no, this is Van Buren. They'd already be dead.

But he was clearly ruffling the feathers of the elite Federalists in the area. So he's doing a good job. He is. The common man in the area, he was increasingly impressing. Apparently he had learnt an important skill of a politician, which was drinking all night in a tavern, listening

to others without getting drunk himself. So he'd pretend to drink and talk to people and just listen and gain information. Yeah, because people do that. You'll sort of go out for a drink with somebody and they'll have like one drink all evening. You think in your head

I'm just keeping up with them. You look at their drink and it's only like a bit empty and you think, oh they've had a new pint. Yeah, they must have done. I've finished two so I'll go and have another. Yeah, exactly. Then the half bit empty and you think oh they've had a new pint yeah they must have done I've finished two so I'll go and have another yeah exactly then the half a day I think oh they've just

finished the next bit of another pint I need to and you're saying to yourself oh it's just Martin I'll have a chat to him and by the end of the evening you're just there

just chatting about the tax fraud and the four murders and weeping on his shoulder yeah hoping the bloodstains just wash away

so yeah he's learning that important skill how to listen And weeping on his shoulder. Yeah. Hoping the bloodstains just wash away. So, yeah, he's learning that important skill, how to listen. That's a very important skill. Oh, yeah. Now, it's not long before Martin went for what he truly wanted to do. He didn't want to be a lawyer. He wants to be a politician. And I would argue this is our first in all our episodes.

A lot of them go into politics, but it's because they wanted to be a great man, like Adams, or because of a sense of duty, like Washington. But I really get the sense with Martin, and you can see whether you agree with me by the end of the episode, he wants to be a politician

because he wants to be a politician. He finds it interesting. Yes. The debate, the listening, the solving the problems. Yeah, and the cut and thrust of political life. Yeah. Yeah.

I would see if you agree, but let's continue. In 1812, he put his name forward for the State Senate. So not the national one, the Senate of New York. Yeah. His running was opposed not only by the Federalists, but also many Republicans that he had annoyed over the years, including the Van Nessers. Due to this, it looked like his

opponent was going to win the seat, easily enough. So much so, that his opponent was holding a celebration party in a hotel nearby, whilst Martin was leaving to get on a steamboat to travel to New York City on business. Do you know what would be really awkward? What? If they got having a party.

Yeah. If the next day he woke up and he hadn't actually won. Oh, it's slightly worse than that. Oh, even better. Go on. Well, I'll quote here. I'll quote Van Buren himself. Whilst I was arranging my luggage and my papers, my opponents were celebrating their supposed victory at the hotel

opposite. As Martin left his hotel with his bags, heading towards the steamboat, a drunk man from the party staggered out, saw him, gave him a mocking smile and a wave. So they're making fun of him. Nah. Yeah, in his face. Just did that. Just pointing at him.

Keep walking away around the corner. Nah. Yeah, exactly. Martin ignored this. He's above the fray. He is. He gets on his boat. He talked to the amazingly named Ebenezer Foot. Oh. He's above the fray. He is. He gets on his boat. He talked to the amazingly named Ebenezer Foot. Oh! That's like a dick in his name, isn't it? He's a great name, isn't it? He doesn't come up again in the story,

but I'm putting his name in because I loved it. So he's talking to Ebenezer Foot about his loss. Yeah, lost. It's a shame. Ebenezer Foot is commiserating with him. And off the boat goes. Down the river. Then they pass Catskill, that village he got married in. Martin noticed his brother-in-law on the bank.

His brother-in-law was gesturing to a small rowing boat that was making its way to the steamboat. He received a letter. It was looking far closer than people thought. There was a chance that he had in fact won. Oh? Oh, yes. And sure enough, by the time the boats were counted and he had in fact won oh yes and sure enough by the time the votes

were counted and he was in new york he discovered that he had won with a lead of fewer than 200 votes wow out of 40 000 wow close but he wins so at the age of 29 the second youngest ever senator at this point he enters the state senate that guy holding the party though imagine that what a buzz kill that must have been amazing halfway through a toast just like to be partly tapped on the shoulder not now I'm giving my celebration speech

no you really need to hear this no it's fine oh well good for Martin he's now a senator he turns up on his first day in Albany wearing a green coat, buff breeches, and white-topped boots. Buffed breeches.

Buff breeches. Oh, buff. The colour. But maybe he buffed them as well. Nice and shiny. A crackle when he walks. Yeah. Apparently he came across as jaunty.

Yeah. That's what we're describing it. So there he is in his fancy clothes, young state senator, and then the War of 1812 starts. The war that no one in Britain remembers. Yeah, that's the one. Now, despite the mood for war

in a huge chunk of the country, New York generally didn't want this war. Well, they're on the front line. Yeah, exactly. They've got huge commerce ties with the British that would be ruined. But on top of that, they weren't really favoured by the British like New England was. So they were kind of stuck in the middle. They weren't going to get anything out of this. However, the war was an opportunity for a young new politician to make his mark. And this is what

Martin did. Now, remember, he is a Dutch Republican. He has literally no reason whatsoever to like the British. The British had waged war in Europe against his homeland. Then they had taken Kinderhook off the Dutch at some point in the past. He has no ties to Britain whatsoever. So why on earth would he like the British? As the war progressed, the British advanced, as we've seen, and people in America became more pro-war the more they started to become a bit scared fair enough yeah yeah it's now becomes like defend yourself yeah it's a second i was against the war but now i think about it i don't want to die yeah please do something

van buren's standing rose because he was the one speaking out against the british uh talking about new york america and democracy and how important the three things were. He proposed a radical bill that would have conscripted 12,000 men. He was talking about conscriptions. The war, however, ended before it was enacted. But it got his name out there as someone who was willing to push for things. Yeah, that's true. Anyway, once news of New Orleans comes through,

Van Buren was very vocal about his support for this General Jackson fella. He seems like the right sort of guy we need in charge of our armies. He gets results, dammit. And then the war was over. And if this was a film, it's now montage time. Oh yes, because Van Buren then spends all his time at saloons, at parties,

in the Senate, talking to people, listening, having a drink, playing a game of cards. Montage all of that. Him just whirlwinding around the city, getting to know everyone he can. With each new scene in the montage, though, his ears get a little bit bigger. Is that to represent his listening skills? It's more figurative growth of ears.

Right, okay. Rather than a literal. He's not like Dumbo by the end, though. No. No, okay. Rather than a literal. He's not like Dumbo by the end, though. No. No, okay. Well, like I've said, he apparently had a gift for talking when he was younger, and now he's really developed that into just being a very likeable person.

Most people were just happy to talk to him. He would learn a secret here, he'd gain a favour there. He built up his reputation among the political class and soon was held in very high regard. To main popularity with the everyman, he'd gain a favour there. He built up his reputation among the political class and soon was held in very high regard. To main popularity with the everyman, he made sure that he pushed for reform in

various areas, the biggest being debtors prison. In a cash-poor, land-rich country, it was increasingly common for people to be thrown into prison for having even a tiny debt. Martin spoke out about this. I'll quote here, It is a jail sentence for the misfortune of being poor.

So he's becoming popular with the people, but also popular with the politicians. Do you think he's actively trying to become more of a populist? Oh, we'll get to that. I wouldn't describe him necessarily as a populist, and you'll see why, but this is very deliberate, you get the feeling. Yeah.

This isn't him just going out and having a fun time political maneuvering oh yes so other things he does at this time he rails against the federalist bank federalist bank is far too powerful it's undemocratic it's too supported by the federalists for a start but there was one thing above all that was bothering him more even than the bank and perhaps still thinking of his days in Kinderhook, where the splits in the Republican support meant Federalist victories, Van Buren was frustrated by the lack of cohesion by the Republican Party.

So he sets to work on it. It's impossible to know how he does this, but little by little, day by day, party by party, he starts to gather other politicians who share his worldview around him and make sure that they know about each other and introduces people. So he's kind of sexy networking. Yeah, he's networking. That's exactly what he's doing.

Little by little. And this doesn't happen overnight. It is a slow, gradual process. But we get the impression that it was very much deliberate. And one thing that unites people better than anyone else, of course, is a common enemy. And this is where ex-governor of New York and mayor of New York City comes in, DeWitt Clinton. DeWitt? DeWitt.

That's awful. You're not liking that name? Not as impressed as you were by Cornelius at the start then? That's a great name. Oh, okay, fair enough. DeWitt. Yeah, no, DeWitt Clinton. Anyway, Clinton was a Republican,

but the kind of Republican that many Federalists could get behind. He'd also run for President against Madison in the past. He was a big player. Yeah. A well-established force in New York politics, and Van Buren starts to work against him, perhaps due to ideological differences, but some historians have speculated that perhaps this was just Van Buren starts to work against him. Perhaps due to ideological differences, but some historians have speculated that

perhaps this was just Van Buren needing a rival. Yeah. So he just picked the biggest boy on the block. That's what you take on your bully. Yeah, exactly. Equally, maybe it was just personal dislike. Clinton was very much a snobby elite. Van Buren, not having finished school,

would have been looked down upon. So maybe that factored into it. Anyway, many compared the two as their rivalry became public, and I'll quote here, Mr. Clinton was reserved in manner. Van Buren was frank. Clinton was bold and decisive. Van Buren, only so

at the proper time. Clinton studied books. Van Buren studied men. Clinton could hardly control himself studied books. Van Buren studied men. Clinton could hardly control himself at times. Van Buren had complete mastery of himself. So a good contrast there between the two characters. Yeah, you get the feeling Van Buren is always watching, learning. Yeah, yeah.

Doesn't say things unless he needs to. It's an important skill. Not loud, not passionate, but knows when to do things and when to say things. Wish I was like that. So it's around this time that Van Buren starts to gain a reputation for keeping his cards close to his chest. So not really indicating what he's feeling until the right moment. Yeah, and he really gains a reputation for this.

He's a poker player. Yeah, we will get some anecdotes of this later on when he becomes a national senator. He was a firm believer that knowledge was power, so why should he be giving free ammunition to his enemies? Yeah, fair point. So it's this careful approach that Martin was starting to pit against the old-school Clinton. The two fought each other over the next couple of years until Clinton declared Van Buren, and I quote here,

the prince of villains. They're falling out a bit. And then Van Buren was selected to be the attorney general for the state. So he's doing really well for himself. By this point, Van Buren had managed to collate a number of people together with similar thoughts, and also a large number of young activists, including journalists and lawyers. So it's not just politicians he's forming together here. As a sign how well this group was doing, they had their own newspaper. So they were printing things, yes.

And they also had an accepted name. To begin with, opponents of Clinton were just known as the Book Tales, after a type of hat that was popular at the time. But after Martin kind of took charge and consolidated them, they became known as the Holy Alliance, or, more popular, the Albany Regency. Royal. Yeah, I thought that.

Strange royal tone to the name there. But yeah, this sense of a party is really starting to form. Does this generate into something? You will see. Anyway, it's commented upon at the time that there was not a stronger, more disciplined political party in state or national politics in the entire country. Because he'd built it up around people that had his beliefs.

Yeah. That's genius. That's what you need to do. Yeah, that's what he's doing. Anyway, despite the opposition to Clinton, the building of the erie canal linking the great lakes to the hudson river was too good an idea for the regency to oppose the canal the second longest in the world at the time cut transportation costs by 95 percent wow by those who had access to it, which was a lot of people.

This is a huge factor in the expansion of the US into the Midwest. Yeah, the Erie Canal was a big deal, and it was mainly pushed for by Clinton. And some opposed it, called it Clinton's ditch, and said it would never work. But Van Buren realised that he couldn't fight this one. This is too good to fight, so they let that one slide. The two men shook hands after a speech that Van Buren gave defending the project. That's what politicians should do! Yes, they should.

If they have a good idea, but they're opposing, you should say, actually, that's not a bad idea. Right, just oppose everything just because your opponents say it. It's ridiculous. Well, this is Van Buren's way.

Mad respect for him. He knew when to fight and not to fight. Good. Anyway, despite this truce, however, the rivalry did continue in pretty much every other area. Well, fair enough. Yeah. Clinton then became the New York governor.

A promotion. And this is the start of the bad times for Martin. Yeah. Because not only did his career then seem to stall a bit, but Hannah suddenly died of TB. No. Yeah, his wife dies not long after both his parents. Oh, that's a bad couple of months.

Yeah. Bad year. Yeah, it's a bad time for him. He's a widower with four boys to look after. He then lost his position as Attorney General. It's not looking good for him. He hoped to turn things round by being elected to the State Supreme Court, but

the Governor of New York had a veto power for all appointments. And guess who'd just been promoted to the Governor? Yeah, Clinton just vetoes it. These were dark times. His friends began to worry a bit. Still, the arrival of

a national political problem, however, helped Martin focus again. Admitting Missouri to the Union was causing a bit of a stir and a bit of a headache due to the whole slavery problem. As we have seen. We've covered this but, yeah, just know that it was

affecting Van Buren because he now had something to think about and discuss again. Something to do. Now, by accident or design, Van Buren was able to steer the middle course in this debate perfectly. Suspiciously so. He added his name to the list of people calling a meeting on the addition of Missouri. So there was a group of people saying, no, this is terrible. We need to stop the spread of slavery.

We need to have a meeting to discuss this. Van Buren puts his name down on stop the spread of slavery. We need to have a meeting to discuss this. Van Buren puts his name down on the list. Yes, of course we should have a meeting to discuss this. But then he did not attend the meeting. He couldn't make it. He's terribly sorry. I can't have the meeting without me. Then he was able to use that as an excuse

not to sign the anti-slavery document that the meeting produced. This means that pro and anti-slavery activists could not figure out what side he was on, which is just how he wanted it. By the way, he could do that, be the minute taker. Yes, could do. But pro-slavery would accuse him of being anti-slavery

and he'd say, well, no, I didn't sign any documents. And equally, he could say, oh, but I signed to have the meeting to begin with. So he was able to steer the middle course. Keep out of it. Then in 1821, Van Buren, back in his stride by this point, things are looking a bit better, he decides to run for the US Senate. Not the State Senate, he's going national. And mainly due to his creation of the Albany Regency, he gets a seat. Oh yes. So Martin arrives in Washington in 1821.

In a way he's starting from scratch here. Oh yeah. In Albany he created a network that worked around him. A party that followed orders. Yeah. He was the puppet master. Yeah. He knew all his opponents and his allies.

He just, he knew what he was doing. And now he's in a new city on the national stage. It's montage time again. Because immediately he starts up just like he did when he went to Albany. He's visiting everyone. He's going to parties. He's getting to know people. Now, just to root you in here, and now Monroe has just started his second term.

This is towards the end of the era of good feelings. Apparently everyone's getting along and there's no party politics. Yeah. One of the first men that Van Buren visits is Calhoun. Oh! Yes. That'll be fun. Just imagine that meeting.

Calhoun just staring at him. Wild hair. Wide eyes. Just unblinking for almost 20 minutes. Just staring. Just picks up a bunny by its ears and slits its throat. Still staring at Van Buren. Doesn't take his eyes.

Takes a little puppy out of a bag, bullet to the head. Yeah. Splat on the wall. Bit lands on Calhoun's cheek and near his eye, doesn't even blink. No, it just slowly drips down the face. And he licks his tongue out and licks a bit of blood.

That's Calhoun yeah exactly anyway they soon became friendly apparently uh after playing cards that's how calhoun makes friends yes it is like the next day you just imagine van buren receiving a birthday card like fluffy buddies on it's like a really lovely card from Calhoun. Thanks to the lovely chat. I really enjoyed it. Will you be my BFF? Well, I say they became friendly. This initial meeting went

quite well, but actually the two men didn't really trust each other. Yeah. The initial friendship doesn't really go anywhere in the long run, and that turns into bitter rivalry. Really?

But for now, it's all right. That sounds about right. Yeah. So, that's one person down. Van Buren then gets to work on everyone else. One of his friends predicted at the time, within two weeks, Van Buren will become perfectly acquainted with the views and feelings of every member,

and yet no man will know his. Now as far as we can tell, this seems to be exactly what happens. Although he did face a setback during his first speech to the Senate. Yeah, he suffered what he described as a breakdown. Yeah, he completely lost his train of thought, his argument,

he stammered and just came to a stop mid-sentence. The nerves, I guess. Yeah, and then just kind of sat down. Awkward cough in the background. Yeah, really awkward moment. Like, one of his worst moments in his life. Just wanted the ground to swallow him up. Apparently, the guy he was arguing against, however, then mocked him slightly.

And the anger snapped him back into the present. And he was able to continue his argument. So he got over it. But a few teething problems. But still, debating laws in the Senate wasn't what Martin Van Buren wanted to do. That's not why he got into the national scene. He was in Washington for one reason and one reason only. He was fully convinced that the country needed political parties again.

This good feeling is a facade. It's rubbish. And it's probably not true. Yeah. What we need is to go back to the good old days where we had two clear parties. Cut and thrust a debate. Yeah. Because we're stagnating here. So let us support the fact that as a first year senator, Van Buren was fully planning to revive the spirit of the old Republican Party once more.

So no small ideas here. He had seen what a unified party could do in Albany. It's time to see what could happen on the national stage. Oh, he's taking it national. Oh, yes. So, as we talked about before, Washington, during the era of good feelings, was a one-party system that was falling apart at the seams.

No one trusted each other. Everyone was going against each other. Cults of personalities were rising and falling depending on the success of individuals. And Bjorn wanted to change this. He said we needed a machine that would not sway in the breeze of public opinion of individuals. We need something more solid. Now again, just like in Albany, we can't tell exactly how he did this, but he starts talking to a person here and a person there, introducing a pair of people,

occasionally with similar views, a couple of favours, perhaps. So it's a networking. Yeah, again with the networking. Building up his reserve bank of stuff. Yeah, soon people start to realise that when they're talking about things, Van Buren's name seems to come up quite a lot. People seem to be having a conversation and they realise, oh, well I'm here because Van Buren

arranged it. Oh, so am I. And, yeah, people start to notice that strings are being pulled here by the little man in the dapper suit. Oh, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, he starts getting nicknames like the Sly Fox or more popular, the Little Magician.

Nice. Yeah. And again, little by little, year by year, just like the Regency, a political structure starts to slowly build around Martin. He was always a welcome guest at parties. He knew how to have a good time. He had a reputation for being a fantastic host,

so people would go to him. It probably helped he was also very at home talking to the ladies of Washington. He joined in their gossips, the gossips of who's planning to run for what seat where. Ooh. Yeah. Just like we find in Roman history.

Yeah, yeah. Just because the women didn't have formal political power did not mean that they had no power at all. And Martin Van Buren was able to tap into that. Nice. Yeah. Very savvy. It's good to have the wives of the politicians like you.

That's a really good point. Yeah. It just means there's going to be a good word or two put into that man's ear at home when no one else is around. Oh, that Van Burenuren he tastes amazing what he's an amazing politician oh okay yeah speaking of that there's there is a chance that he had a bit of a fling with thomas jefferson's granddaughter oh yeah love that though ellen randolph this is perhaps rumour, but as one history book I read pointed out,

he had the perfect combination of seeming like he would be able to get up to scandalous things, but never actually being caught or never actually doing it. So he seemed a bit dangerous, enough that people thought he was fun, but he'd never cause scandal. Nice. Yeah. Anyway, all this is going on. At one stage, Martin realised that he should probably take a tour of the South. He was from New York. He knew the way the North worked,

be they Republican or a member of the dying Federalist Party. He knew what was going on. He knew the landscape of the North. He's got to get to know the South a bit better. So off he goes on a tour of the southern states when the Senate was in recess. Nice. Now, most in Washington were bemused by this.

What's this senator, this young senator, touring the country for? He's not the president. It's just not something you did. You don't go on tours. Some speculated that he must have a secret lover somewhere. Some thought he was just a pretentious fool. And a few realized exactly what he was doing.

He was building political support outside the capital. One of his early tours, he became friends with a newspaper editor in Virginia called Thomas Ritchie. Ritchie led a local political group akin to the Albany Regency, only in Virginia. So a bond between these two men meant a bond between the two most powerful political movements

in New York and Virginia, which happened to be the two most powerful states. Yeah, this was a power move. Calhoun was one of the first to notice this, stating that the two men clearly hoped to rule the country one day. He's still got the blood on his cheek. Oh yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the next year, Martin heads off again to the South.

This time he visits Monticello, Thomas Jefferson. He's still alive. He's elderly, but he's still alive. He spent a while with the old president and left firmly believing that Monroe was taking the Republican Party away from its ideals. The Republican Party needed someone to get them back on the right track. And who knows who that person could be? You never know. But this is just the start,

because then he opens up a correspondence with Madison. The next year, he heads north this time and visits the elderly John Adams. So he's slowly getting in touch with all the living ex-presidents. And I'll quote here someone who noticed what he was doing. It seems Van Buren, not content with intrigue in his own state, must try his powers with the ancient dominion.

Yeah. Talking to the elderly. Exactly. By this point, everyone's aware what he's doing. It's becoming quite obvious. He's building a power base. But at this point, he's probably got so much power, he can. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Then in 1823,

the presidential election for next year was up in the air. As we've seen, possible candidates were high during this election. This is the one where Henry Clay, Calhoun, John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, Crawford, all of them were going for it. All of them are Republicans,

but different types of Republicans and this led to a very messy election process yeah, I vote Republican ah, damn it well, Van Buren did a lot of thinking he's got to choose someone who's he going to throw his weight behind

well he liked Jackson didn't he not yet, he respected him as a general, but president, really? Oh, Adams' son, John JQA. John Quincy Adams, remember, is the son of a Federalist. But he went to see John Adams. Yeah, I know. The son before.

Yeah. He had tea with the man. He did. But still, he decides against John Quincy. Calhoun! No, because by this point, they don't trust each other. Ah, blood still on his cheek. Yeah.

He decides to go... Clay! No, no, he doesn't go for Clay. I don't know, what does he do? The only one you've not mentioned. He throws his weight behind Crawford. Oh. Yes.

In February of 1824, Van Buren called his skeleton of a party that he'd been building together as a group, and together they announced their support for Crawford. It became clear to all that Van Buren and Ritchie from Virginia were pulling the strings here. So this is turning into a real movement now. If they could get their man in the White House,

they're on the fast track. Yeah. However, not long after disaster strikes, Crawford suffered a paralysing stroke. He was unable to move, see or speak. That could be a problem for a president. Could be. Van Buren, I'm guessing Richie and several other people had urgent conversations all of a sudden.

What on earth do we do now? We've all publicly thrown our weight behind Crawford. What do we do? They would say things like, oh, gosh darn it. Yes. And, oh, tally-ho, that's awful. This has put me in a right tiff. That's what they said.

Oh, I'm in a pickle. But in the end, it's decided they're going to stick with their man. Which I can only hope it was a case of, well, we wanted a puppet. No! And, I mean, come on, he can't do anything, literally. So let's just wheel him out.

He could be our president and we're all things behind him. Right, if he's a hand puppet, where are you going to put the hand? Oh! Yeah, generally they hope Crawford recovers. That's the plan. And to be fair, Crawford slowly does recover, but the stroke was enough to guarantee his failure. There's no way he's becoming president. His health is too big an issue,

and everyone knows about it. According to a friend of John Quincy, Van Buren looked like a wilted cabbage by the time of the election. Yeah, he's thrown his weight behind the wrong man. It's not his fault, though. No, no. Circumstances you cannot foresee Bad luck However I mean due to Van Buren's push Crawford managed Third place

Wow Yeah Behind Jackson And John Quincy Above Calhoun And Clay That's Pretty bad things

About Calhoun and Clay Isn't it Yeah This is the perfect Opportunity to correct Something I got wrong In a previous episode I was hoping You'd mention this.

Yes. I was going to call you out on it, but I thought I'd let you do it yourself. Thank you for that. Yeah, in one of the previous episodes, when we've covered this election from a different perspective, I said Clay came third. And it wasn't. It was Crawford who came third.

I was going to tell you at the time. I'm sorry, Jamie. I'm really, really sorry. It's all right. Don't worry. It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. Oh, I know. I did once. I'm glad you're so forgiving. I'm sorry, Jamie. I'm really, really sorry. It's all right, don't worry. It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. Oh, I know.

I did once. I'm glad you're so forgiving. That's right. Good. Right, anyway. Back to the story. So, as we've seen, Clay threw his support behind John Quincy

and termed for the Secretary of State job the whole corrupt bargain that Jackson was so angry about. Van Buren, possibly aware of how sensitive the times were, just stays out of all the backroom deals at this time. That's a good idea. Takes a step back. Instead, Van Buren's looking to the future.

To ensure that he was re-elected to the Senate in 1827, he attempts to mend bridges with Clinton back in New York. Because Clinton could cause problems with his re-election into the Senate. So he heads back home, and the two meet to discuss things. It was decided the two had enough in common for some form of alliance. Bury the hatchet. As it happened, Clinton was a huge supporter of General Jackson, who had just won by popular vote the last election, but then lost out. So Clinton was outraged that Jackson was not the current president

and wanted to do something about it. Clinton's support of Jackson had put Van Buren off the general for a while. That's one of the reasons why he didn't support Jackson. Because Clinton likes him. Well, I don't like Clinton. But Van Buren starts to see the potential of throwing his political weight, which is quite considerable now, behind the war hero. Combine Jackson's populism with

Van Buren's building of a party, you've got a powerful force there. So he gets to work. And in some ways he was very lucky. John Quincy Adams, like I say, is literally the son of the only Federalist president in history. So it's not hard to push the view that the Republican Party had lost its way. We've got this president who calls himself a Republican, but he is so obviously a Federalist. Our party's gone. We need to split. We need to do something about this. So someone needed to sort the country out, and who better than General Jackson? It's a message that started to spread around.

Just as the Albany Regency grew in part due to the opposition of Clinton, having John Quincy adams as president meant that van buren now found it all the easier to grow his fledgling party and sure enough the party was soon a recognizable force disciplined enough to work as in a block to oppose the president's ideas even those that sounded quite sensible like a national education program yeah you remember in john quincy's episode he seemed to have some quite decent ideas but everyone kept blocking him all the time this is it this is it oh wow yeah so they are pretty much now a party oh yes so montage time once more van buren is

working overtime at parties hosted vacation events talking to people from the North, the South, the West. John Quincy's son denounced these gatherings as parties devoted to only, and I quote, drinking, riding, singing and dancing. Sounds awful. That's a terrible party. Yeah, no wonder people were flocking to them. It's like, well, we can hang out with the president who's just looking sad and naked in a river,

or we can go to van bjorn's parties yeah yeah like you can imagine uh john quincy's son just saying this terrible they're singing they're they're dancing they're drinking so much well the free alcohol terrible why would you want to go there turns back around his crowd's gone did i mention there's free alcohol oh no that was it wasn't it oh so van buren continues his touring of the country when the senate were not in session and he was able to get calhoun on site despite the mutual distrust maybe he sacrificed a cute animal or something a baby deer yes a baby deer with a rock. He picks the baby deer up from one side of his chair while staring into it. Not saying anything.

No. Still staring. The books are like bolder. Yeah. You just see Calhoun's just straight mouth just twitch in the corner slightly. Yeah. And you know, that means he's on your side. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, it's not long before supporters of President Quincy Adams noticed with alarm the rise of this new party. It was denounced as a cabalistic organisation. Cabalistic? Cabal. The name The Little Magician had, by this point, stuck and was known to the public. Well, it was the top hat on the magic wand. And the fact he could put bunny rabbits out of his hat.

Which was useful in the meeting with Calhoun. It really was. And the fact he could put bunny rabbits out of his hat. Which was useful in the meeting with Calhoun. It really was. Yeah. And the deer especially. Now Van Buren was starting to be built up in some circles as a sinister figure

working behind the scenes, pulling the strings. The dark magician. Yeah. Those close to him, however, his famed reluctance to share his own thoughts became stuff of regular anecdotes.

So I'll share a couple of these with you. These better be hilarious. One day after missing a vote on a local tariff, Van Buren was due to speak with local wool manufacturers. The manufacturers wanted assurance that Van Buren supported this bill, which in private, Van Buren did not. So he's in a bit of a pickle. He's got to deliver this speech and they all want him to say one thing and he privately believes another. Van Buren stood up and delivered a speech that outlined the bill in detail and then ended by stating

that he would, and I quote here, support any tariff that was wise and therefore salutary in promoting every branch of domestic production and industry.

That's brilliant because he's just read out something that they want and said he'll vote for something that makes sense without any link in that. Well, the audience broke out into applause. They loved it.

They thought this was an amazing speech. However, one man in the audience, a man named Mr. Wood, turned to one of Van Buren's friends, who was called Mr. Noah. Excellent. Mr. Wood said to Mr. Noah, Mr. Noah, that was a very good speech.

Mr. Noah replied, yes, I was very able. Then there was a pause for a bit. And then Mr. Wood said, Mr. Noah, on which side of the tariff argument was the speech? There was another pause. Mr. Noah replied, that is the very point I was thinking about when you first spoke to me, Mr. Wood. Yeah. But crowd crowd loved it

the crowd heard what they wanted to hear yeah yeah there's another story about a senator trying to win a bet by trying to get Van Buren to commit to something anything just get him to commit look I bet that you can't get him to commit to a single thing so the other senator took the bet approached Van Buren one day and said, Matt, it has been rumoured that the sun rises in the east. Do you believe this? And according to the story, which Van Buren himself wrote down, he replied, well, senator, I understand that it is common acceptance, but as I never get up until after dawn, I can't really say. ever get up until after dawn, I can't really say.

Picks up a pen. This pen is blue, is it not? I'm saying it is not not blue. Yes. A lot of double negatives, that's the trick. Yeah. So between 1826 and 1828, the Democratic Party fully comes into existence, and it throws its weight behind the election of the populist General Jackson. Ah, because he was the first democratic president.

Yes. Because of Van Buren's push to help him. Yes, Jackson was the first president for the Democratic Party, but it's Van Buren who created it. That's really interesting. Yeah. Oh, wow. The personal relationship between Van Buren and Jackson was cautious to begin with.

Jackson had heard of Van Buren's political ambition and reputation for slyness. Equally, Van Buren was not convinced that Jackson had any genuine political ideals. He was just a populist who wanted to become president. And wanted to fight. Yeah. So Jackson decided to see for himself

what Van Buren was like and paid close attention in a Senate meeting to the little magician. Jackson noticed Van Buren scribbling down notes at some point and realised that he was about to get up and say something, so he paid close attention. Van Buren apparently got up, made a short statement that clearly defined his position on the argument, and then sat down.

Jackson turned to Eaton, who was beside him, remember him? And just said, is there anything non-committal about that? And Eaton replied, no, sir. So there you go. Van Buren proved that he could just make a point in the Senate, and Jackson went, okay, the rumours must be false. Van Buren knew it, didn't he? I hope so. He knew what he was doing.

That's the only time in his life he's ever... Now the two warmed to each other, corresponding through letter after this, perhaps bonding over their lack of what was seen as a decent education That's something they had in common I guess any opposition politicians would be using that as a As a, oh he's a stupid man, they don't know what they're doing Yes, exactly

Despite his turd of phrase and the fact he's read every book Including the ABC Yes, and he can get that square peg in the square hole within the first five tries now. So they're getting closer. Then DeWitt Clinton suddenly dies. It was his name. I'm not surprised. Okay, you've really disappointed with that name, haven't you?

It's a terrible name, DeWitt. Clinton was a major obstacle in the path of Jackson and Van Buren getting up because Clinton and Jackson got on really well. And Clinton obviously didn't like Van Buren. No. Despite the recent truce. So him dying suddenly cleared the path a little bit. Think of the funeral.

Jackson and Van Buren were just sitting next to each other. And Van Buren just whispered, My favourite colour is blue. And Jackson went, Oh my God, my favourite colour is blue too. Yeah, that's what it was like. And then Van Buren just says, what's cuter, a puppy or a kitten? And they both say at the same time, puppy.

Oh my god. It's like that. And then Jackson walks off with a smile on his face. And then Van Buren just opens his notebook. He's got a list of things that Jackson would say. Yes. Anyway, things get closer to the election, and then the governorship for New York

was suddenly up for grabs, and with Clinton no longer being around, Van Buren was the obvious choice. Plus, this has the benefit for Van Buren that if he's in his home state as the election comes up, he'd be better placed to do some campaigning on behalf of Jackson.

Because he's got his people there as well. Yes, he's still got the regency in New York. So, yeah, he'd be well placed. So, off he goes, back to New York, becomes the governor, and starts campaigning for Jackson, using all the tricks he has learnt so far, including making an impression.

And this is where we get to describe what he was wearing, because we have a description. One supporter described his stop in his town, and I will quote here. His complexion was bright blonde, and he dressed accordingly. On this occasion, he wore an elegant snuff-coloured broadcloth coat. Brown.

Sort of browny-orange. A deep sort of umber colour, I'm going to say. With a velvet collar to match. His cravat was orange-tinged silk with modest lace tips. His vest was of a pearl hue. His trousers, white duck. His silk hose corresponded with his vest. His shoes, Morocco.

His nicely fitted gloves were yellow kid. His hat, a long-furred beaver with a broad brim that sounds atrocious brown pearl yellow orange with a beaver fur top hat that's the 70s it's amazing isn't it I'm not entirely sure

the hat intrigued me and I tried to figure out what type of hat this was as far as I can tell it's like a short top hat they're not really big and tall yet it's quite short but that sort of shape my my you said beaver hat i've just got a dead beaver book teeth are hanging over the front tail down his back to prevent the rain but it's not just a like a beaver hat because it's got a broad brim okay the beaver been stretched but it is it's sort of like a squat top hat but but it's covered in beaver fur. Oh. Yeah.

This is what he was wearing. Ostentatious, look at me clothing. Oh, it's horrible. The colours, ugh. Yeah. They're too similar. You need contrasting colours, not... And at no point does it mention a monocle,

but there's no way he's not wearing a monocle with that kind of gusset. Oh, and a cane. Yeah, and a cane. A red cane. Yeah, definitely. Anyway, parties were thrown, parades were had, drinking songs were created. Against all this, John Quincy Adams refused to campaign, remember? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. He didn't stand a chance. Sure enough, Jackson wins the election, becomes the seventh president by a landslide. Martin Van Buren has his man in the White House and a newly formed political party that he had formed and controlled. He has everything exactly where he wants it. He's a genius.

And that's where we'll end it today. Oh. Yeah, and there you go. I have a lot of respect for him. People like that, the people that can play the game, know how to manipulate. I love that. I love manipulation. I wish I could. People like that, the people that can play the game, know how to manipulate. I love that. I love manipulation.

I wish I could do it. Now, I should probably mention at this point, I've got most of this information from a couple of books that are quite pro-Van Buren. And there is definitely a bit of speculation here with the whole, we're not sure how he formed it, but he must have been pulling tricks behind the doors. But there is some evidence that he was doing this.

There are letters that he writes to Ritchie, for example, talking about the formation of a new party. Yeah. Very early on as a senator. So, I mean, he definitely had this in his mind. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He just knows how to talk to people and create the right

situations. Yeah. And listening is a very important skill. And this is why I said at the start, he's a real politician. Yeah. Yeah. Now, whether you think that's a compliment or an insult, depends on your viewpoint, but we've not really seen one like this before. No, he's playing

the game. Before the game's even a game. Yeah. This is the first person who is, he's like second generation. He's almost Roman. Yes, exactly. It's no longer this brand new government that he has seen being created right in front of him and helped create.

He's grown up seeing this government and he is using every trick to manipulate it to how he wants it to work. Amorable. Well, it's not amorable. But it's interesting to hear. Yeah. I was genuinely worried that after Jackson,

it was just going to kind of fall off a cliff, interesting-wise, until we hit Lincoln. Because I know nothing about this period between Jackson and Lincoln, really. But I thoroughly enjoyed researching Van Buren. I think it's interesting in a different way as well. Yes. It's very different. No pistols this time.

No. No. But just whispers in the corner of a party. Yeah. Yeah. Loved it. How do you think he's going to do

when he becomes president? I don't know. Everyone sort of mentioned it as said not great for him. So. But I don't know. I could be wrong. Well we'll have to see

next time won't we? Yeah. Okay well thank you very much for listening. Don't forget you can follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And you can know us from Podbean and iTunes. So, you know, please do. You'll help us. And please also leave a comment for us on iTunes or wherever,

even if it's via Facebook. You can leave a message or on Podbean. We'll read it and thank you. So, yeah, please do send your messages. We've had some really nice ones recently. Oh, yeah, yeah. John Hubbard sent us, I'm going to call it a short essay slash pitch.

But in defence of John Adams, he thinks we've been a bit harsh on him. Well. Which I just can't agree with. Although he did say one thing which really stuck out. Go on. He is the first American in history to make European diplomats groan when he walks into a room. Quite impressive.

That is quite impressive. It's not worth a point impressive. Yeah. I quite liked it though. Yeah. So sorry, John. We're not going to give... He wanted us to give him American.

No. No. No. I'm just not feeling it. Sorry. We appreciated the effort. So, yeah. Yeah, I know that.

It was a little mess, actually. It made me laugh. It did. So, yeah, send your messages in. They're always fun to read. And all that needs to be said then is... Goodbye. Goodbye.

Okay, guys, watch this, watch this. I'll get him. He will commit to something. No, no, anything, right? Okay. I get a whole pint, yeah? If I get him. I want a pint. Pint it off all of you, yeah? Three. I get a whole pint, yeah? If I get him. A whole pint?

Pints off all of you, yeah? Three drinks for the rest of the week. Right, here we go. Okay, right. Matty! Matty! Yes? Ah, Stuart. Uh, fine day. Well, some say it is, some say it isn't. Yes, it was raining earlier, wasn't it?

Well, I didn't see that, unfortunately. No, no, it's quite a damper. I heard from some people it was. Some people said it was more of a trickle. Right, yes. No, I could have sworn you were in the rain. Well, I was wearing an umbrella, so at the same time I was and was not. Right, right, okay.

Anyway, happy birthday. Well, some say it is not today, and some not say it is that it is not that was today. Um, what? Exactly. Um, okay. Right. Um, look here. Um, my name is Stuart, yes? Apparently. No, no, no, it is. Look, here's my birth certificate. Don't question why I've got it on me. Yes, read this, read this word here. Um, name.

No, no, read, read, read my name there. Just read that word. Just read it. It says Stuart. Yes, so that means it's my name, yes? Well, it's what's written on this piece of paper. Right, okay. Do you like dogs? I do not not like dogs. Okay, have you got teeth? Show me your teeth, Van Buren. We have so many different names of different body parts. No, no, show me your teeth. Show me your teeth. Um, okay. Right, exactly. Now, um, uh, where on earth was I going with this? Um. It's okay, old boy. Many people have tried this. And did they succeed? Well, they may have thought they did. Oh, right. Um, look, the sky. You see the sky? I've heard of it. Oh, for... Right. Just look up. Please look

up. Can you see blue? We're in a building. Oh, for... Right. Yes, we are. But the ceiling? White? It is interesting that you say that because in the shade over there, it's noticeably grey. But in the light over here, I'd say it's more of a... more of a biscuit cream. Biscuit cream?

Yes, it's a fine colour for a waistcoat and a pair of breeches. Apparently. Right, OK, this pen, right? Blue ink, yeah? Blue ink. It is blue or not blue, it depends on what is inside the pen. I'm literally writing with it. Look, it's coming out blue. Well, the ink in the paper could be blue, however, the ink inside the pen I have no idea of. It's obviously blue, mate. I can't see it. Look, it's coming out blue. Well, the ink in the paper could be blue. However, the ink inside the pen, I have no idea of. It's obviously blue, mate. I can't see it.

Your name is Martin. Well, you called me Matty earlier. I hate you. That may be true. Right. Okay. Can you feel this? Feel what? Did you feel that? Did you, Batty? Did you? Do you feel pain? What are feelings anyway? I'll show you. My face! Agree! Agree! Agree! you you