American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - 8.2 Martin Van Buren

Episode Date: October 13, 2018

He didn’t do too badly in our first episode. But now Van Buren is at the top, and can he stay there? Everything is looking good: he has a new party behind him and the support of Jackson, surely nothing can go wrong. Whats that? The money isn’t working anymore? Why not? Oh, that’s not good, is it?

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, The Dured Part 2. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump. And this is 8.2, the second part of Van Buren. Ooh, I'm quite looking forward to this. Yeah? In the last episode, he did loads of cool stuff. A manipulator, a puppet master, if you will.

If you will, and I do. Pulling the strings. the strings yes no it was it was interesting i always felt like that was his hobby yeah that's what i meant by but he wants to be a politician he wants to little little twist there a little turn here a little tweak of the nipple here yeah maybe um and uh yeah and then he gets what he wants but he's doing really well i think as a as a politician that's not the president, spot on. So far, Amerikan or Amerikant? Borderline.

Yeah. Because he's done nothing great. He's just... But he has formulated a party that's still around now. That's big. That is big. That is quite big. So, you know, he's now officially a Democrat.

Yeah. With a donkey, isn't it? Yes. Yeah, they have the donkey. I'm not sure when the donkey became their symbol. Maybe we'll come across that soon. But they have a donkey i'm not sure when the donkey became their symbol um maybe we'll come across that soon okay but they have a donkey they're prepping the donkey brian yeah brian the donkey oh he's always there yeah van buren bought a little i've got a garage set like a farmer's market yeah exactly saw a donkey looking longingly at van buren nibbled his coat

as he walked past his bright red coat as he walked past. Now he's part of the team. Yes. Brian, waiting for his moment. We'll find out when that moment is, shall we? Oh. Right. Come on, Brian. Okay, so let's jump into this week.

We left Van Buren on the day of Jackson's election. Yeah. Oh, no, sorry, after he got elected. Yes. Yes. By this point, he is, as you rightly point out, the little magician. He is the political wizard who has formed the Democratic Party slowly over years. All very impressive.

Yeah. His man is now in the White House. His party are now supporting him. And it's a party as well. Yeah, exactly. He's got everything where he wants it to be. He's also the governor of New York. Remember, he quit the Senate and decided to go back to New York,

be the governor where he could campaign more easily for Jackson. Nice. However, it's not a shock to anyone that after a few days past, word comes through. Jackson wants a word. Perhaps there's a vacancy open. Who? Me? Says Van Buren. Yes. Where's his accent?

Oh. Really me? We've got a lot of comments saying how brilliant your accent was. I think it's a fantastic Swedish accent. I'm not sure. Yeah, Jamie did send a message to me, what, about two hours after we recorded? Last week, and it just said, that was Swedish, wasn't it? So, oh yeah, yeah, it was.

It's a bad Swedish accent. Yeah, I wouldn't even insult the Swedes by calling it Swedish. Yeah. Oh, well. So, I don't want to even insult the Swedes by calling it Swedish. Yeah. Oh, well. So he gets word, go and see Jackson. He's got a job vacancy open. Secretary of State. Oh, that's a big responsibility.

Well, yeah, I mean, this is back when being Secretary of State meant that you're next in line to be President. Nice. Yeah. Now, Van Buren wasn't the obvious choice for second in the estate. I mean, he was hardly a John Quincy Adams. He hadn't been touring Europe since his youth getting to know all the foreign diplomats. No. So this wasn't an obvious choice. But because Van Buren had put so much support behind Jackson, it was kind of a

reward. Yeah. Yeah. He has skills. They're multiplying and he's losing control. Well, hopefully not losing control. No. He does have skills. So yeah, it was generally a wow done, you supported me. You can do this job. Here's a little back hander for you. Yeah, you know your way around the Washington scene.

Yeah. There you go. You talk the talk. Exactly. Now, Van Buren actually missed Jackson's inaugural address. Do you remember that's when he delivered the speech and then there was a massive party at the White House? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sounds great.

Yeah, Van Buren missed that. He wasn't able to get there on time. But when he does arrive in the capital, he goes to visit the new president, meeting him for the first time since they formed their alliance. They'd seen each other around Washington before, but this was the first time they formally met since he threw his weight behind Jackson. So like, can we?

And then Jackson shoots him with guns. Because it's Jackson. Yeah. Maybe Jackson sees him and goes, oh, you're Van Buren. Oh. Why are you carrying a donkey? It's a brave new idea, I have. So yeah, apparently, Jackson meets with Van Buren and they have a nice meeting. Jackson's very pleasant, even though his wife had only just died. He has a good meeting with Van Buren. The

two of them leave feeling they've made the right decision backing each other. Good. Still, everything's a little bit rocky to begin with. Because this new alliance behind Jackson, what is becoming the Democratic Party, it already has its factions. Right. You've got Van Buren and everything he built. Yes.

But that's not all you've got behind Jackson. You've also got all the Westerners that Jackson's brought along All the people who live on the frontier And what politicians start looking out for them Fair point Yeah But you've also got all the Southerners that Calhoun has brought along Ah

Yeah, now remember this is before Jackson and Calhoun fall out Hmm Yeah So you've got Northern Republicans You've got Southern Republicans And you've got Western Republicans Right Making this got Southern Republicans, and you've got Western Republicans making this Democratic Party. And not everyone sees eye to eye. So even at its birth, the Republican Party is starting to show some cracks.

Well, straight away, they've already got their own interests. Like, after, haven't they? They've both got their very own agendas. Like, you're Wild Westers. They want farmland and to not die. And you've got the people down south who want slaves. And the people at North is like, we don't want slaves, we're good, thank you.

Yeah, and you'll see how all this comes into play as we go along. I imagine very smoothly. Well, we'll see. Yeah, I mean, to begin with, there are powerful men in all these factions vying for position, trying to get Jackson's attention, wanting the top jobs. Van Buren, perhaps seeking to solidify his new friendship with Jackson, found a way to get in there when the first scandal hits Jackson's presidency.

Yes. Now, if you remember his episode, Jackson's friend, Eton, had just married a wife named Peggy. Yeah. Yeah. Peggy, you remember, was brought up in a tavern, and some accused her of getting to know the guests. She's a bit of a round Susan.

Yes. Would make the rounds. That's what they called her. Bit of a merry-go-round. Yeah, I mean, in real life, her biggest crime was just being poor when she was younger. She wasn't one of the elite. No.

Yeah, and she was looked down upon. Peggy and Eton had had an affair before peggy's husband then oh that's well oh no that's bad yeah i mean he he was a sailor and had died like hundreds of miles away and there's no suspicion of uh foul play there no but you know still it's a bit of gossip it's something you could chat about in the corner. And at least he wasn't lying in the bed, dying of some like dysentery or something. You know, flooding the bedroom in the next door. You know, his wife's Peggy's all...

Yeah, just him wincing with every creak of the springs from that store. Releasing a little bit more. Yeah. No, I don't think that happened. Good. But this conversation we're having is probably similar to the conversation the elite in Washington were having around the 19th century version of water coolers oh then we're in good company yes exactly tally hell to put it simply she was an outcast she was snubbed at

parties she was talked about mrs calhoun apparently was the ringleader in these chats. Oh, I bet she's a scary lady. Yeah, looked identical to how Calvin looked, just with a big wig. Now, as we've seen, this reminded Jackson too much of the attacks on his wife before her death, and he became outraged. Well, yeah. Now, what we didn't cover, though, is that Van Buren also became outraged. Now, maybe he was genuinely outraged. Maybe. But maybe he simply saw an opportunity to get closer to the president.

Maybe it was a mixture of the two. I reckon a mixture of the two. He knows exactly what he's doing. Well, he not only supported Peggy, but he looked for her friendship. He called upon her when he arrived in the capital. One of the first things he did was go round to her house. So I hear you sleep around

with your husband's not around. Yeah, pretty much. Hey, Peggy. Apparently the conversation went a bit like this. Perhaps this is a hint at his inner thoughts here. He's said to have confided in Peggy in this meeting that he thought that general jackson was the greatest man living nay in history oh dear yeah but and this is

a quote here he said to peggy but don't tell general jackson what i've just said now obviously peggy did just that the next time she saw him and jackson is said to have replied ah madam he loves me he tries to conceal it but there is always some fixed way which i can tell my friends from my enemies does he like stroke jackson's leg underneath the table is that how he knows quite possibly um yeah i mean this is clearly Van Buren just manipulating things to make himself look good to Jackson. Yeah, that's what I do with you. Yeah, exactly. So, you know.

Yeah, it works. It does. I'm still convinced you like me. You're probably the greatest person, nay, the best person in the world. Podcaster. Best podcaster in the world. Oh, thank you, Jeremy. I keep telling you.

Oh, thanks. That's very kind of you to say. No, no problem. Idiot. Sorry? What? sorry what oh nothing i thought you said something no i'll listen in the edit an historian writing 30 years later would claim that this social call between van buren and peggy was one of the most important turning points in american history this sounds darkly familiar doesn't it does it i, I don't want to get political, but certainly in modern times, this is the sort of thing you can imagine happening. You say a good word about the president and you get a good job.

Yeah, no, I now know what you mean. Yeah, it's not just that Van Buren manages to wheedle his way into a job, because he's already done that. But he's now getting the backing of the president. I'm going to quote this historian here. The political history of the last 30 years dates from the moment when the soft hand of Van Buren touched Mrs Eaton's knocker. You what? He touched her knocker.

Oh. Yeah. How noisy was it? I don't know. Do your sound effect again. Yeah, it her. Oh. Yeah. How noisy was it? I don't know. Do your sound effect again. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit like that. Oh. Only with a shocked scream at the end.

Mr Van Buren. Yeah, obviously this is hyperbole, the idea that this is hugely important. But you can see battle lines starting to form here. Due to the Peggy Eaton affair, Jackson and Van Buren end up on one side and Calhoun ends up on the other. This is the party starting split straight

away. Anyway, Van Buren carries on with his job and he does a fairly good job. He completes trade deals with Britain and the first deal with the Ottoman Empire is made. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, which is nice. They also get some money off France, which they owed. Oh, good. That's always

good. And generally does an alright job. As we've seen, the biggest political drama was South Carolina's disgust at the recent tariffs. Remember, Calhoun and South Carolina were talking about nullifying the tariff laws. Yeah. And that could lead to all sorts of problems. Yeah, not good things. This is when the dinner

then happened. The dinner. With the toast off. Toast off. You're just repeating me. Do you remember the toast off? Do you remember the toast off? Yes, I do. Right, flashback to the toasts. Okay. This will come back to you. I read out Jackson's toast and then Calhoun's toast, and we decided who had the best toast. Oh, yeah, because one was far more menacing than the other. Yeah, yeah. This is when Calhoun's threatening to nullify the tariff laws, saying that states' rights are more important than national laws.

Jackson's not having any of it. Camus is a bit of a separatist, really, isn't he? Oh, yes, as we will see. So, flashback to that moment. Watch it again as if we're there again, but this time from a different camera angle. Ooh, that's weird. Yeah, it's changed slightly, hasn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, a bit further away this time. Got to get more people into the shot. Okay. Yeah. So, Jackson stands up and says our federal union it must be preserved.

An obvious attack at Calhoun who is saying that no the union's not as important as states. Yeah. Now Calhoun visibly shaken at the force of this public attack by the president who wasn't expecting it. He stood up and just like last time he's gonna

say the same thing you got a different camera angle stop yeah yeah okay and he said the union next to our liberty the most dear may we all remember that it can only be preserved by respecting the rights of states and then we decided jackson won the toast off yeah i think so it's shorter it's more snappy, more menacing. And now, don't cut away, which is what we did last time. Okay. Because another person stands up to deliver a toast. Van Buren.

Yes. And I will quote, and you can see if he trumps them. Okay. Mutual forbearance and reciprocal concessions. Through their agency, our union was founded. The patriotic spirits from which they emanated will forever sustain it. He's not committing, is he, to anything?

Oh, it's typical Van Buren. It's like, come on, guys, can't we all just get along? Come on, BFFs, come on! Yeah, so that's Van Buren's toast. That's pathetic. You're not happy with it, are you? No, I'm not happy with that at all. No.

He's let me down. Oh, that's a shame. Even Brian's looking no i'm not happy with that at all no he's let me down oh that's a shame even even brian's looking a bit you know a bit awkward what the donkey yeah oh he's slightly ashamed he is yeah yeah well he's shuffled off and actually knocked over a cocktail glass well i don't think anyone's really listening to van buren they're still excited by the uh the original toast off but it's true van buren's there he delivered his own toast it just wasn't as good and he's nowhere nearly as widely remembered. No. Which is a shame.

Now, despite the tone of the compromise, after this, gloves were off. Calhoun and Van Buren went to political war against each other. Ooh. Yeah, papers from either side starting attacking one another. Despite Van Buren's tours and his careful cultivation of the South, remember he used to go on his tours, even though he was just a normal senator. He was a bit mocked for it. Yeah, he starts

hearing murmurs of disapproval from the South. Calhoun's turning it against him. And this is when Jackson, unable to govern with his cabinet so split, sets out his plan. Van Buren would quit, and then with him gone, it would leave Jackson the political cover to fire those in his cabinet who were working against him. Literally fire. Yeah. Yeah, like that. It's the only way you knew how to fire someone. Fair enough.

Yeah. It's a very literal man was Jackson. Into the cannon. Keeps it next to his desk. Yes. Now, it should be said that last time I said this was Jackson's plan, like I said just then,

but in the Van Buren books I've been reading, this is all Van Buren's plan. So, yeah, it depends on the historian and what angle they're going up for I think, but if I had to choose between Jackson who literally

fires people out of cannons to fire them, and the political manipulator Van Buren, I know who I'd choose as to who came up with this plan. Van Buren? He's a planner. Yeah, so I'm going to give it to Van Buren. Anyway, Van Buren's out of a job. But he was given a new one. Lucky him.

One that would help with his lack of experience outside the US. He was to become the Minister to England. Okay. In the summer of 1831, Van Buren and his son John, who's 21 by this point, they enjoyed a peaceful, easy sail across

the Atlantic. That's never happened in this podcast, I don't think. It's not like before, where you've got John Adams and little John Quincy literally bailing the water out of their ship before they sink and die chased by pirates yeah all that's gone now it's just a nice easy sail like a cruise yeah i don't know maybe some some excitement happened one day when someone lost a thimble or something possibly but even then it was found five minutes later, no harm, no foul. No?

Yeah. Sounds a bit of a diary though, doesn't it? It is, yeah. They arrive in London, and Van Buren puts to good use the large living expenses he'd been given. He flashes the cash around a bit. Making connections. Making connections, yeah.

He spent his time meeting with all those high up in London society, including meeting the royal family. It's been a while since we've seen the royal family of Britain Making connections, yeah. He spent his time meeting with all those high up in London society, including meeting the royal family. Yeah. It's been a while since we've seen the royal family of Britain in the podcast, hasn't it? Yeah. So we're past the Georges now, we're into William. George III is finally dead.

Oh, so it's George IV. Well, not quite. George III died 11 years previous to Van Buren arriving in London. So then George IV took over. That's George III's son. Yeah. But he only lasts 11 years. He died the year before Van Buren arrived. So now it's George IV's brother, William IV.

So the royal family enjoyed the company of this chatty American. Van Buren and his son were soon enjoying the variety of ale and beer in England. Apparently they were very impressed. Brilliant. Yeah. So they should be. None of this frozen rubbish you can't taste. They only had Bud Light in America at this point. Ah. Yeah. The dark times. Yeah. But the whole craft beer thing hadn't taken off in America yet. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Oh obviously they did have Samuel Adams there. Oh of of course. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Anyway, they tried lots of beer and ale, apparently.

They sampled a lot. Beer tasting. Beer tasting. That's what it was. I beer tasted 48 pints. He also met with an elderly Talleyrand, which is a huge name in the French Revolution. We've only mentioned him once before on this podcast,

way back in John Adams' episode. Do you remember when the French demanded a bribe from the US to speak to them? Yeah, yeah. And it caused a bit of a political storm. Yeah. Yeah, Talleyrand was involved in that. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

This is an elderly Talleyrand. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, so, I mean, that was fun for Van Buren, a big name in history he got to meet. However, as he was enjoying himself in London, sampling the beer, chatting to celebrities, Calhoun was back home, plotting

in his plotting room underneath the volcano. Yeah. With his massive blackboard. No, no, it's America. I think, not just a blackboard, but one of those see-through boards you get in, like, modern police dramas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's really impractical. Yeah, no one would ever use because you're constantly looking through it instead of looking

at the writing that's on it. Yeah. I've never seen one in real life. I don't think they exist in real life. No, it's stupid. Yeah. So, anyway, Calhoun's got one. All his minions are trying to squint at this board, figuring out what the writing says. They're just looking out the window at the birds being charred by the volcano. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Calhoun's got a plot. Because Van Buren is in London. Yeah, and that's far away. It is. And he's the minister to London. But he's not been confirmed yet. Jackson said you can be the minister for England, off you go. But it needs to be ratified by the Senate.

So any deals he makes won't be valid? Yeah, and if he's not ratified, then he has to come back home. Oh dear. Calhoun pulled some strings, asked some favours, slowly roasted some people. Didn't smile though? No, no. Again, it was just the staring. Yeah.

Yeah. And then once Senate was back in session, Calhoun's anti-Bambiorn faction voted Bambiorn out of his new job. Oh, that's not fair. Afterwards, Calhoun gleefully announced, and I quote, This will kill him. Kill him dead. Brilliant. He waited like a month to say that

because he needed to wait for the thunderstorm. Oh, yeah, you've got to time that. Yeah, but he did, so it was fine. Anyway, the news may have disappointed Van Buren, but he soon realised that Calhoun's plan was backfiring. Van Buren did not have the best reputation. He was known for being a bit of a puppet master, working in the shadows, a bit sinister possibly.

A bit Romulan. Yeah. Now, this attack on him, I knew what you meant. That's a Star Trek reference, isn't it? Yeah, see, I knew it. I've got no idea if it's true, though. Oh, it is. It is, right.

Okay, so yeah, a bit Romulan. Yeah, so this attack on him humanised him in the public domain. Everyone thought it was a bit petty of Calhoun to go after Van Buren's job. Yeah. So all of a sudden, people saw Van Buren as the victim in the political wrangling instead of the puppet master. And if I know Van Buren, which I think I do quite well, he'll take full advantage of that. Well, he immediately went on holiday to the Netherlands.

Back home! Yeah, yeah. Went back home. Hello! Hello, everyone! Hello, everyone! Everyone just looked at him really strangely. But he's speaking Swedish. Yeah, he just took in a bit of a holiday.

Went to see his homeland. And all the while was receiving news that, actually, things were all right back home. His popularity was soaring, if anything. Then, brilliant news comes through. The Democratic Party had voted for him to serve as Jackson's vice president, should Jackson win the next election. Ooh, which I'm sure he will do. Yes.

So, Van Buren returns to the US in the middle of Jackson's war against the banks. Remember Jackson didn't like the banks? Yeah, he kept shooting them. Yeah. It's probably why they didn't like Jackson. Oh, see, I've not written it down, but there is a famous quote,

so I'm going to have to paraphrase it here. But he does say to Van Buren, at this point when he comes back, the banks are trying to kill me, but I will kill the banks. Yeah, and he runs out of his office, two guns in hand. Sharpening his pistols. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Crazy. Van Buren was not unsympathetic to the pro-bank views. I mean, he comes from the North and South. Yeah, yeah. He's from New York. He's not hugely anti-bank to begin with, but he's got to kind of choose a side here. And inevitably, he swings behind Jackson and soon was denouncing the National Bank for

its evil ways. Fair enough. Also, not only this, the nullification crisis was swinging back into gear. Calhoun was now loudly talking about nullifying the tariffs, and Jackson was even louder talking about using force to make sure that South Carolina got into line. Van Buren able to calm Jackson down slightly, realising that a civil war could break out if things go too far here. So Van Buren's just trying to keep everything calm. Yeah, think of blue.

Think of blue. Please give me blue. As we saw, these crises were... Got through. Good. Yeah. And the next election saw Jackson comfortably win. Van Buren therefore becomes the vice president.

And arguably, for the first time, the position of vice president wasn't completely useless. He can do things. And he did. Yeah. Wow. Not only did he do things. And he did. Yeah. Not only did he do things, he did things with Jackson. The president and the vice president worked together. What? As a team.

No. Yeah, no, it was revolutionary, it was. To be fair, we have kind of seen this before, but Van Buren really got stuck in and involved. The two went on tour together. They made up T-shirts and everything. It was great. They toured New York and New England, 1833.

Oh. Yeah. NYC, 1833. Yes. That's what it said. T-shirts and the banners. And unfortunately, we don't have much details on this because what went on tour stayed on tour.

Of course it did, yeah. Yeah. But I'm sure they had a good time. Oh, yeah. I bet they did. No, they just were rallying political support in an area that was a bit weaker than the rest. Look what we can give to you. Give us money.

However, the best part of Van Buren's new job of being the vice president was to have been presiding over the Senate that had recently voted him out of a job remember nice ah calhoun step into my office well it was a more henry clay that van buren had a bit of an altercation with well i say an altercation uh one day henry clay stood up and delivered a very long and very scathing attack on Jackson's economic policies. Right. I mean, this was full-on rant mode. You suck. Your family suck. Your face sucks.

You know what it sucks? Your bad policies. I was about to say it was more directed than the policies, but you got that in there at the end. I swerved towards that after you nudged me three times. That is probably a direct quote, therefore, I'm going to say, of Henry Clay at the time. Excellent. Yeah, so this long-scaling attack on Jackson's policies just went on and on, and Van Buren simply sat there, watching, listening, not responding at all.

Eventually, Clay ran out of words and sat down there was a pause everyone waiting to see how's van buren going to take this how does he take it well he calmly stands up he asked another senator to take his gavel and beat clay over the head not quite no yeah he asked the senator to take his gavel and just to sit in his seat. He could do that for me. Then he calmly walked across the room to where Clay was and asked, Mr. Clay, may I borrow some of your excellent snuff? Very confused, Clay kind of woodenly handed over his snuff box.

At this point, Van Buren applied some of the snuff to his nostrils, thanked Clay, and then simply walked out the room. That's a message, though. Yeah. Look what I can make you do. Yeah, exactly. Run all you want. Who's in charge?

Nice. Yeah. Even Brian gave a nice bray after that. He was very impressed. However, Van Buren was not winning all political theatric encounters. Calhoun one day stood up to denounce Van Buren as, and I quote, not of the race of the lion

or the tiger. He belongs to a lower order, the fox. Fox-y. Why fox? Well, not only is this an elitist dig, he doesn't belong to us. He grew up in a tavern. The fox was also seen as, although wily and crafty, not a positive character.

So sort of a negative animal. It's like calling someone a pig now. You know, they're very noble animals. Yeah, no, it's a nice bit. It must be a pig. But yeah, a little bit like that. So it was an insult. It wasn't good. Things got so bad that he even started carrying loaded pistols to the Senate chamber with him. Nice.

Yeah. Now, this is Van Buren's story. So obviously the pistols were never used. No. So this was Jackson's story. There'd already be five dead on the floor. Every time someone asked for a refreshment break or something. Refresh this.

Yeah. I think I really just showed the level of sort of the aggression and nastiness. Yeah, things were tense during this time. I mean, Prime Minister's not loved, but she doesn't have to carry guns with her to Prime Minister's questions. She takes a few switchblades. Oh, yeah, that's London. Yeah, it's London.

Yeah, due to his unpopularity, Van Buren was increasingly attacked in the papers and in the growing political cartoon business. Yeah, he was easy to caricature, was Van Buren. Why? Well, first of all, his fashion sense.

He was very sharply dressed, as we talked before. I wouldn't say sharp. That's a word I would use. Ostentatious? Better, yeah. Yeah, but not only that. I'm just going to say side months.

Yeah, I'm just going to say that. See, in my head I've got like a... He'd be wearing a pencil moustache. Because in my head he's Hercule Poirot. Right, okay. Agatha Christie, and that's my view of him. Short and round. Interesting. Silly little men. That's not quite what he's like. Well Poirot from Agatha Christie. That's my view of him. Short and round. Interesting.

Silly little men. That's not quite what he's like. Well, we'll see later. We'll see. I bet he's like six foot eight, isn't he? Rimbling with muscles. Yes.

In fact, his portrait is just him topless. Ripping a phone book in half. He's just Arnie in bad clothes and sideburns. Oh yeah. Yeah. Hello.

Been working it. Can't believe you got me doing the accent now. I knew it. Yeah, so I mean he was made fun of because lots of people didn't like the fact he was the heir apparent. I mean it was very obvious. He'd been Secretary of State he's now Vice President and Jackson kept saying things like,

Van Buren's going to be President after me, whilst cocking his guns. Isn't he, guys? He is. Yeah. Yes, he is. So, I mean, despite the fact that he was unpopular, once Jackson announced he wouldn't be running again, the party got in line and supported Van Buren to run for election. Nice. So the campaign began.

And interestingly, Van Buren, the king of campaigning, settled into the routine of the times. He sat back and let all this campaign on his behalf. Fair enough. Yeah. The country was not yet ready for a man to be president who openly said he wanted the job. It's that Roman thing, isn't it? Who, me?

Of course. Yeah. If you insist. Now, opposing Van Buren were three candidates from the political party that had risen to fight against the rise of the Democrats. The Whig Party, who I've briefly mentioned before. This is comprised of the old Federalists that

no longer had a home, and also the Republicans who were not Jacksonian or Van Buren supporters. Right. Does this later become the Republican Party? Yeah. Modern Republican? Again, not quite. Oh.

We are, of course, only a couple of decades from the Republican Party being created now. So the Democrats were first? Yeah. So I thought because GOP, the Grand Old Party, I thought they were the original. Yeah, but that's why the Democratic Party is also known as the Grand Older Party.

But it just gets really confusing because the acronym's the same, so they gave up on it. ROP, Really Old Party. Yes. So yeah, opposing Van Buren were three Whig candidates. By putting forth three candidates, the Whig Party hoped to force the election into Congress because it would be harder for Van Buren to get an outright majority. That's true, however you are splitting your own vote. Yeah, it's got that downside. But remember, you needed to have more than all the other candidates combined. Ah, fair enough.

Yeah, otherwise it goes into Congress. True majority, though. Yeah, exactly. So the hope was, if we put forth three candidates that are popular in separate areas of the country, they will together pull more votes. Then it will go into Congress and then we can work some magic that way. Yeah, I don't think so. Well, yeah, that's what Van Buren said. I think not.

Because he got 170 electoral votes to their combined 124. Got 170 electoral votes to their combined 124. That is 763,000 individual votes to the combined Whig 736,000. So a fairly comfortable win, considering it was against three separate people. Yeah, brilliant. At the age of 53, he became the youngest president in history. Really? Yes. Which sounds really good, doesn't it? But he is only the eighth president in history. Really? Yes. Which sounds really good, doesn't it?

But he is only the eighth president. Yeah. Which made me think, I bet there's been loads so far. I bet, like, Washington was obviously the youngest president in history. I just think so, yeah. Yeah, because, I mean, he was the first.

Then I thought, oh, and then some of the others would have beat him. But no, actually. I think John Quincy would have been younger, isn't he? No, I looked it up. Washington was 57 and everyone else has been older. Wow. Yeah, quite a lot of them were 57 or so, but slightly older than Washington.

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. So Washington was the youngest and now it's Van Buren. Wow. So that's a title he shares with Washington. Nice. It's nice, isn't it? It's a nice little stat he's Van Buren. Wow. So that's a title he shares with Washington. Nice. It's nice, isn't it? It's a nice little stat he's got in his stat pocket.

So, he's elected president. He had weathered the political storms. He'd managed to go from a Dutch boy working in his parents' tavern to the president of the United States. American dream. Yees. He had reason to be happy. He had about a week to enjoy himself oh nice yeah there's a couple of big events that happened in van buren's presidency that shaped

the way history looks at him first of all was the panic of 1837 that was this just like a generalized panic there wasn't actually a thing It was just everyone just started worrying a lot more. Everyone just started screaming. Yeah. Portraits have become more common. Calhoun's was passed around a lot in 1836. Oh my goodness. And it just instilled a sense of dread. Yeah. No, this is the economic crash of 1837, which is known as the Panic of 1837. To begin with, 1837 looked like it might be an excellent year. Technology was increasing at a pace that no one had ever seen before.

The country was growing rapidly. Things were looking very good when Van Buren gave his inaugural speech. It wasn't a speech that goes down in history for being particularly great. He just stands up and says, thank you. for being particularly great. He just stands up and says, Thank you. Yeah. It wasn't noted as being terrible.

Interestingly, it's the first inaugural speech to mention the word slavery, which we'll talk about a bit more later. But yeah, there was a sense of a new era in the air. After all, Van Buren was the first truly American president. Yeah, he wasn't born in a British colony. He was born in America. Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he wasn't born in a British colony. He was born in America. Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. He was relatively young as well. Do you think this is when the accent kicked in? Yes. As soon as he became president, Van Buren lost his accent. Would you like to see the Dame American? Yeah, that's what happened. My name's Martin Van Buren.

Prez. Yeah. Extreme. That's when all the American name's Martin Van Buren. Prez. Yeah. Extreme. That's when all the American accents changed now. Yeah. We've gone past the English colonial. Exactly. It was a good day.

It was a sense of something new happening. It's like when Sweden tries to drive on the other side of the road overnight. Yeah. People got a bit confused to start with. There was a bit of panic, but generally it went all right. Yeah. Yeah. It was National Change Your Accent Day.

Yeah. Yeah. That weird, horrible, in Your Accent Day. Yeah. Yeah. That weird, horrible, in-betweeny sort of about a month everyone's accent kind of, oh, hello, can I buy a pound of potatoes over there? Deviated through Irish there. I have Irish ancestry. So, like I say, a sense of a new era.

Oh, love it. Oh, Lewis. Yeah, so Van Buren delivered his speech. He was politely clapped. There was some toasts and balls like you'd expect. He moved into the White House. His first task, of course, was to get rid of the smell of cheese. Yeah. Yeah, so he stripped the rooms back to their boards.

Cleaners, get the smell of cheese out of the rooms. But despite all this good feeling of having a non-cheesy White House and brand spanking new accents and everything, those who knew a little bit about the economy, those that had been criticising Jackson's policies for the last few years, began to notice a few tremors, a few problems. Reports of mobs destroying warehouses over the price of flour in New York became increasingly common, not just from that state but all over the country.

Something's not quite right here. Why is flour so expensive? Within two weeks of Van Buren becoming president, it became clear to everyone that the economy was crashing. And it was crashing hard. So how? Can I ask you how come? Yes, yes, you can ask me because I've written it in my notes. Oh, brilliant. Well, as is always the case, the reasons for economic crashes are complex and very hard to decipher, even from a distance.

Yeah. And we simply don't have time to go into all the details i imagine when jerry from the presidency's podcast goes into this he'll he'll do his usual fantastic job of like getting really deep into this like up to the elbow kind of uh he doesn't mess about doesn't even wear gloves yeah uh but for a simplified overview which is all we need for our podcast right now um some of the reasons for this crash couldn't be helped trade was becoming more international it was becoming more speedy markets were being affected quicker than they've ever been before because trade was quicker than it had ever been before yeah the rapid rise of

technology meant that banks were investing just as rapidly lots of railroads roads were being built and banks were investing into them loads because they know they get the money back tenfold because that's the new and exciting thing yeah exactly so i mean with this rapid rise of everything that's going on people are spending a lot of money expecting a lot back yeah and this is not just banks in the US. The Bank of England, arguably the most powerful bank in the world at this point, was investing hugely into technological advances in the United States.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. The economy was truly starting to become global. Wow. So when the Bank of England made decisions about interest rates, the US economy would be affected. So, I mean, there's things going on outside the US that the US had no control over, and this would have led into what caused the crash. However, there were some massive own goals by the US, namely Jackson's

attack on the National Bank, destabilising the country's banking system, as well as his specie circular, which banned anyone from buying land with anything but hard gold and silver which set off a real estate crash because suddenly no one could buy any land anymore i could say they need it bags of gold around with yeah exactly um so a lot's going on yeah in a uh economy that wasn't really ready for all this to happen things are moving swiftly and quickly and political decisions were made that were not fully thought out. Which is why Jackson lost a lot of points last week.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, at the time, the two political parties do what political parties do whenever there's an economic crash. Oh, blame each other. They blamed each other, of course. In 2008, in our country,

everyone blamed the current government. But it was a worldwide recession. Yeah, exactly. It isn't it yeah exactly if there's a global crash of course you're going to point to the opposition and say it's their fault because you're either in power when it crashes so you can point to the previous government and say well it was actually them yeah or you're not in power and you can point to who is in power and say but they're in charge yeah yeah so it's very easy to point the finger it doesn't matter whether you're not in power and you can point to who is in power and say, but they're in charge. Yeah. Yeah, so it's very easy to point the finger. It doesn't matter whether you're in power or not. It's true.

So anyway, Van Buren and the Democrats attempt to blame the banks for the crash and the Whigs that supported the banks. It's their fault they didn't regulate the economy well enough. And they had a good point. 347 banks have been created in the last seven years alone. Wow. And there was no regulation whatsoever. They just printed whatever they wanted.

Inflation. Yeah. However, the general public didn't really buy this. After all, why had all those state banks been created and what gave them so much freedom? It was Jackson's attack on the National Bank that did that. So it wasn't really working. After all, the Whigs had also been warning that this is going to happen for quite some time. Clay had been standing up shouting about the economic policies for hours.

No one listened to him. Well, now they're listening. Now they can't afford bread anymore. Just Clay standing there slightly smug. Yeah. With a tear going down his cheek because he chews his last piece of bread. Yeah. But offering Van Buren some more snuff.

Do you like some snuff now, Van Buren? That would clear your sinuses, wouldn't it? Yeah. So most people blamed Jackson and, by extension, Van Buren. Yeah. Because the two were in cahoots together. That's true because Van Buren can't blame the previous. No, exactly. That's not going to work.

Anyway, one by one, the crash, or as I say, the panic as it's known, hit the major cities of the US. New York. Seattle. Yes. Miami. Yeah, all of them. Yeah, but New York obviously was a big powerhouse.

New Orleans, even though it was very far away. Las Vegas. Las Vegas, yeah. Los Angeles. All the cities. The city of California. Yes. Well done.

Yeah, all the major cities of the US. Prices were fluctuating wildly. People were being laid off in large numbers. Businesses could no longer afford to hire people. 20,000 people lost their jobs in New York City alone. Wow. Yeah. Farmers just watched as their crops rotted in the fields because they could not sell them. And as all this food was lying on the docks, being unable to be sold, rotting away, you equally had people starving to death. Oh. Yeah. It's a serious economic crash. It's, in fact,

the second worst in American history. Was the next one 27? Yeah, the Great Depression. Yeah. Yeah, that's the biggest one. But up until then, this was the biggie.

Wow. Anyway, by May, so Van Buren's been in charge for a couple of months and he realises he's got to do something. So he calls a special session of Congress.

Congress aren't in session at this point, but they can't wait until it's back. Let's get together. We need to solve this through. People are literally starving in the streets here. Even those that argued for smaller government to realise that actually something needs to be done. Unfortunately, however, deep division over how to tackle this problem. As the government spent the last eight years stripping away any form of regulation over the banks, it's now very hard to see what they could do they've taken all control away from the banks it's like privatizing everything

they're going no we're going to nationalize it again yeah oh it was tricky some claimed that retaining as much hard currency as possible in the government and then distancing the government from the financial systems was a way forward, isolating your hard currency. So your gold body and that sort of stuff. Yeah, exactly. Some said that meddling would make things worse, do literally nothing, ride it out. That was called the la-la-la-la-la approach.

Some claimed that the government needed to support the state banks. After all, that's what we've been heading towards for last eight years so um print more money no no that never works some said no we need to go back to what we did before set the national bank up do whatever we can to go back to how it used to be basically no one had a solid idea no well at least they did but they were all completely opposing and no one really knew which idea was going to work. The trouble is Van Buren always sits in the fence.

Oh, well, yeah, typical of Van Buren. He eventually reaches a compromise. He proposed an independent treasury for federal deposits that would be separate from the banks. So you're in governmental money. Yeah, and then banks would operate outside of that. So people, people in business.

Yeah, exactly. Okay. To appease the. So people, people in business. Yeah, exactly. To appease the bankers who wouldn't like this idea, because that's taking a lot of money away from them, he suggested that all federal lawsuit suits that were piling up against the banks just be kind of put to one side for a while. Yeah, we'll just sort this out. Yeah, we'll put that to one side. However, Van Buren's proposals were defeated in the House. Yeah, we're just... Let's just sort this out. Yeah, we'll put that to one side. However, Van Buren's proposals were defeated in the House. Eventually, it would be accepted in 1840, then it would be taken away again, then restated.

Eventually, it was taken on board, but not during Van Buren's presidency. But yeah, he kind of finds a kind of middle way here. Eventually, the economy slowly starts to recover, as economies generally do. A couple of dips, but generally things are starting to go in the right direction. But obviously the human damage was already done.

Many people had died and suffered during this economic crash. Yeah. And there was no form of social support whatsoever back then, so you were just screwed. You'd grow your own food or die. Yeah, exactly. And also, the political damage had been done. Van Buren, the master politician, had failed the first hurdle. Everyone blamed him. Oh dear. Still, as long as he doesn't fall into any more traps, it should be fine.

Yeah. Unfortunately for Van Buren, however, for a variety of reasons the issue of slavery was being discussed more and more there are many reasons why this is true that have been suggested by historians the growth of railways and newspapers more and more people were becoming more aware of what other people were going through in the country people were more connected yeah slavery was no longer an abstract thing in the South. You could start to read reports about what was actually happening in the South. Also, the financial difficulties that had just hit,

people perhaps grew more empathy for those who had always had hard times. That's another reason given. Perhaps the country was becoming more aware of how other countries were viewing this ever-increasing new nation. Becoming a bit more self-conscious of the fact that, hang on, we're a slave state still. A bit awkward. Yeah, Britain had abolished slavery across the entire empire in 1833. So a few years previously, that didn't look good. And even Mexico, brand new Mexico, which most Americans just look down on as just this new little republic that started up.

It was a little baby country. Well, they abolished slavery in 1829. Wow. Yeah. It didn't look great. And some people in America were perhaps getting a bit self-conscious of the fact that the rest of the world seemed to be getting rid of slaves. In a modern world, in a modern age. Exactly.

It's not what you want. America was starting to develop that self-assurance, which they're known for having around this time, because they were doing very well in many areas, especially their expansion. So those that were proud to be American, rightly so, were perhaps a bit embarrassed by this dark stain. Also, you've got this core group use it because it's their economy.

Well, yes, of course. I hope that doesn't come in to a conflict later on. We will see. So in the 1830s and going into the 1840s, we really see slavery becoming more of an issue. At least more of an issue for white people, the black population. It had been an issue for them for quite some time. I can imagine.

As mentioned before, Van Buren even mentioned slavery during his inaugural address, which shows how much it was being talked about at the time. Unfortunately, it was only mentioned to appease the southern states. He promised he would do nothing to affect slavery. Now, Van Buren's opinions on slavery are hard to ascertain and seem to change over his life. He grew up in a tavern that owned slaves, if you remember.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes, he at one point owned a slave himself when he was an adult. Since becoming a politician, he had gone out of his way to make it very hard to pin him down on the subject in typical Van Buren style. And now he was president, he had gone out of his way to make it very hard to pin him down on the subject in typical Van Buren style. And now he was president, he had a problem. The North becoming increasingly anti-slavery, the South becoming increasingly pro-slavery. And Van Buren had spent his career

trying to maintain friends and supporters in both the North and the South. So therefore slavery was increasingly looking like a situation that he was not going to be able to just stay on this non-committal path of his. Yeah, because eventually someone's going to want, you know, decide. Yeah. Tell me what you think. Soon enough, every move he made was scrutinised.

Those looking for clues as to his thoughts. I mean, what does he really think? He's buying bread. Is he going to get brown bread or white bread? Just a crowd of people outside the bakery watching which one his hand gets then it moves to a roll that that is the only way you could ascertain someone's opinions of slavery he looks over his shoulder and was looking so yeah chooses the roles instead yeah maybe they look to his uh bakery habits i'm not convinced though um some people did see a sign in the fact that his son married

the cousin of dolly madison remember her yes yeah yeah uh so dolly's cousin got married to van buren's son and she was the daughter of a wealthy southern planter some people went oh yeah family marrying into the planter class of the south well that clearly shows what he thinks also without a wife, a member of Amurin's wife had died a few years previously, this new daughter-in-law, named Angelica Singleton, became the hostess of the White House, and she was soon giving a southern air

to the presidential mansion. Well, howdy, partners! Yeah, she'd say. But with a real southern accent. I don't think that was too bad. It was probably terrible. What y'all want over here? Get yourself some lemonade.

Yeah, that's what she'd say. Excellent. Increasingly, it seemed like Van Buren was going to side with the South. There was a few indications. For example, the gag rule had passed through the House with Van Buren's support. We've mentioned the gag rule before in John Quincy's episode, post-president. Oh, to gag the press. To gag the House itself.

Anything to do with slavery was instantly tabled. You can't talk about slavery in the House. I mean, it was flagrant abuse of the First Amendment, but people didn't seem to care. At least some people didn't. Yeah, John Quincy was doing all he could to work around the gag law. Van Buren supported it. Yeah, so there was that indication that he was a southern supporter.

However, despite this, and the fact that many in the North thought of Van Buren as clearly pro-slavery, there were many in the South who did not trust this northerner. I mean, he's from New York. Is he really pro-slavery? I just don't trust the guy. He won't have our best interests at heart, will he? Yeah, exactly.

He doesn't know. And also, had he not signed up for an anti-slavery meeting when he was younger, okay, he didn't attend the meeting, but he signed up to have the meeting. That's suspicious. And also, he's on record saying that black men, if free, of course, could have a vote,

which was horrifying to some people. I mean, admittedly, Van Buren said only if they had a certain amount of property, which none of them had. But still, it was the principle. He had said that black people should somehow be allowed to vote on things. which none of them had, but still, it was the principle. He had said that black people should somehow be allowed to vote on things, and that disturbed many in the South.

Yeah. So typically for Van Buren, he was attempting to straddle the middle ground. Yeah. The ground, however, was shifting, and he was left awkwardly doing the splits. Yeah. Then, one night in November of 1837, a pro-slavery mob attacked a warehouse belonging to a newspaper editor. His name was Lovejoy.

I really hope he was a... Oh, antiques dealer. Yeah, played by Ian McShane. Yes. Is it Ian McShane? Yes, it is. Yeah. So this guy looks just like Ian McShane.

Yeah. Like he was in Deadwood or like he was as an antiques dealer? Oh, like he was in Deadwood. Okay, so yeah. It makes sense. He had an Americanane. Yeah. Like he was in Deadwood, or like he was as an antique dealer? Oh, like he was in Deadwood. Okay, so yeah. It makes sense, he had an American accent. Yeah, exactly. We should probably explain for our American listeners

why we're suddenly talking about Ian McShane. Yeah. Ian McShane, before he went off to America to be in Deadwood, like back in the 80s, I think, he played a character called Lovejoy. He was an antique stealer. Oh, that's brilliant.

He wore a leather jacket, if I remember correctly. Oh, he did, yeah. Yeah. And solved crime. Did he? that's brilliant. He wore a leather jacket. Oh, he did, yeah. Yeah. And solved crime. Did he? I believe so. He probably did.

Yeah. I just remember it was on when I was a child. Anyway, Lovejoy. Ian McShane. Lovejoy. Yeah. He was a newspaper editor. He was anti-slavery, and he'd spoken out about slavery recently, published some articles.

A pro-slavery mob were not happy with him. So they make their way to Lovejoy's warehouse with ladders and torches. That's where his antiques are. Exactly. Yeah, the idea was to burn the place down. However, Lovejoy had got wind of the attacks, and the two sides started shooting at each other. Oh, nice.

Yeah, a few volleys are had. A couple of people fall to the ground in pain or dead. Lovejoy, who's inside the warehouse with his workmen I suppose, firing out, realised that a ladder had been put up against the warehouse and there was a boy holding a torch making his way up to set fire to the roof. So Lovejoy and one of his friends run out of the warehouse to try and knock the ladder over before the boy can get onto the roof. At this moment, Lovejoy receives a shotgun to the face. Oh. Yeah. Possibly to the face.

He was killed with a shotgun, I don't know how much. A shotgun? Yeah. This story sent shockwaves over the political landscape. This whole slavery business was getting serious. There were now mobs out killing people over the issue. It could turn into like a civil war if they're not careful. Yeah, exactly.

Also, around the same time, was the Texas question. And this was not helping the whole slavery debates. But the question was, Texas? Yeah, Texas? Well, in 1836, Texas had declared themselves independent from Mexico. They all took their ponchos off and put on Stetsons over them. Once they declared their independence from Mexico, they sought to join the US. Nice. Yeah. Texas at the time had a large enough population it wasn't completely barren but the population was a mixture of people who had emigrated from the US

and also people who'd moved up from Mexico it was a melting pot it certainly didn't feel Mexican it didn't feel American it was its kind of own area but looking around this new independent Texas, as they declared themselves, it's like, oh, who do we want to join? Should we be on our own or should we join the United States?

They're doing pretty well for themselves. And a lot of us have relatives that live over there. So they wanted to join. And we have oil. Yes. And Stetsons. So yeah, the idea of Texas joining the US was welcomed with open arms by the South. This is a wonderful idea.

Texas, after all, was below the line that had been drawn during the Missouri Compromise. That meant Texas, this large, vast area of land with a decent population, would become a slave state. It would be a large and powerful one at that. But at the moment it wouldn't be because Mexico didn't have slaves. Exactly. Ah. Yeah, that's the problem. For it to be a slave state, it would have to reintroduce slavery.

And there may be people there that wouldn't want that. Yeah, there were certainly many people who said that this crossed a moral line. I know it's one thing accepting that slavery is already a necessary evil that exists, and we're trying to contain it, but this was open, let's start up slavery. Van Buren realises that this is just going to cause a lot of problems. So he was very cautious about letting Texas join the States. Fair enough. And just kind of pushed it along a bit.

Someone else can deal with that, won't they, President? This angered the South, especially Jackson. Jackson was writing angry letters from home at this point. However, the South were slightly mollified when Van Buren continued with Jackson's Indian removal policy. So that cheered the South up. The whole Trail of Tears thing was happening, the whole forced death march.

Oh, wonderful. Yes, that kept the South happy enough because the South were getting land from the Cherokees, which gold had recently been discovered in. Oh, wonderful. Yes. After all the nastiness that we covered last week occurred, Van Buren addressed

Congress and said that the measures approved by the last Congress had, and I quote, the happiest of effects. He also claimed that the treatment of the Indians had been, and again I quote, directed by the best feelings of humanity.

Kill them all. Yeah. And the slavery question is still not going away. No one's fixed that yet. No, so that's still going along. And nor has the bitterness between parties over the economy. So as you can imagine, it's just becoming quite negative. Yeah. Yeah.

Things have got so bad in Washington that two congressmen duelled over a disagreement. One of them was fatally shot. The two sides of the political landscape were pulling apart. North and South were pulling apart. Ideas were becoming more extreme. It was not long before that anti-slavery advocates had not called for

abolition. Slavery's wrong, but abolition's too extreme. We can't just ban slavery. That's far too extreme. Was it a political manoeuvre? Yeah, it reminds me of the gun debates nowadays, where even the... Regulate rather than get rid of. Yeah, even in America, the loudest voices against guns

are still not claiming that we should get rid of guns, because that's too extreme. They're saying we just need more regulation, whereas most people in Europe look over at America's gun laws and just go, that's too extreme. They're saying we just need more regulation. Whereas most people in Europe look over at America's gun laws and just go, that's just weird. Yeah, we would have no problem in Europe saying, well, just get rid of guns. Well, we did.

Yes, exactly. The political landscape at the time, even anti-slavery movements were saying, oh, we can't say get rid of slavery. It's just too radical a position to take at that time. But was it politically minded? If I say this, I'm going to have a massive percentage of the country that are going to be so angry.

Yeah, exactly. Or genuinely don't think. No, you get the feeling it's just a case that it would have been seen as so extreme no one would listen to you. Yeah. If you're there calling for the abolition of slavery, then people would just call you a loon and stop listening straight away. But call for it in incremental steps, that might work. So it began with improve the lives of slavery. Equally, those pro-slave groups

were also more moderate not long before. It wasn't that long ago that slave owners saw slavery as a problem, an evil, but the economy depended upon it. It was there when the nation started up, all thanks to the British. It's all their fault. We've got it now. We have to live with it. I don't like it, but I've got slaves. And that, as we've seen quite a few of the presidents we've covered, that was generally their attitude. I don't like slavery, but I've got slaves. However, now we start to see both sides becoming more extreme. The anti-slavery side starts calling for abolition of slavery. No, let's just get rid of it.

This is wrong. The pro-slavery side starts saying things like, not only does our economy depend on slavery, but slavery is actually a moral good. Slavery should exist. How can you argue that? Well, these people, yes, they have to work for no money, but they're fed, they're clothed, they don't have economic problems to worry about. What an easy life it must be to just sit there. You know what you need to do each day. You don't need to worry about the bigger

things in life. They just get on with their work. And after all, they can't look after themselves, can they? Yeah, racism really starts to kick in at this point, where you get people having to use racism to justify their arguments. Slavery is good because black people are incapable of actually looking after themselves. Like helping out the unfortunate. Yeah, exactly. We're giving them a chance in life. Yeah. That's terrible.

That's really bad. Yeah, it really becomes quite dark, in fact. Some arguments went along the lines of slavery is even a force for good for marriage. What? Yeah, this one's particularly sickening. One defender of slavery wrote at the time that slaves were good because men were able to, and I quote,

harmlessly vent their lust on their slaves. Yeah. The pro-slavery movement go off the deep end. They're there in the Mariana Trench. Yeah, they really are Anyway, things come to a head in 1839 with the Armistead case It starts on the coast of Cuba A group of slaves revolted and took over their ship

They killed a number of the crew, including their captain And then they directed the surviving crew to take them back to the west coast of Africa They'd only recently been kidnapped. Okay. And they were being brought over. So, take us home. However, the crew on this Spanish ship managed to trick the revolting slaves and sailed into the US waters,

where they were apprehended by the US Coast Guard. Digga digga digga. Yeah, Baywatch. Yeah. Yeah, the Hoff was there. Oh. Apprehended the ship. Bulgewatch. Yeah, the Hoff was there. Apprehended the ship. Bulge out.

Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't called the US Coast Guard back then. It was called the Revenue Cutter Service. But the only difference is that instead of red shorts, they were blue. Ooh. Yeah, but that is the only difference. Yeah. But yeah, so this slave ship gets taken in to america political fallout then follows

as you can imagine the men had been kidnapped in africa illegally it turned out they had been transported illegally so were these men slaves if it's not part of a legal trade they're just free men who have been kidnapped but so with all the other what yeah this is the argument that many people made um so are they slaves because it was an illegal slave trade because remember before then slave trade was legal and you still got legal slave trade in areas of the world but this particular slave trade was illegal so are they slaves or are they just kidnapped men fighting for their freedom so that this struggle and this argument captures the imagination of the abolition movement in the country, understandably.

Van Buren trying to make everything just go away, because everything's really hard politically at the moment, and nothing's working out quite how he wants it to, just orders that the men be returned to their Spanish owners, just send the ship back. We don't want to deal with this. But his political opponents would not let him get away with that and the case got caught up in the courts.

Eventually it reached the Supreme Court where John Quincy Adams himself defended the men. Now I did briefly mention this. Yes, right at the end of this episode, yeah. He gave a speech that ultimately convinced the court to announce that the men were indeed free men. Van Buren, however, did not follow the ruling of a lower court that said the United States should pay for the men to return home.

He said, no, we're not doing that. Eventually, the men are returned home in 1842. The funds were raised to send them back home. So roughly how long were they in? A good few years. Right. Yeah, and they go back to the west coast of Africa. I tried to find out if they actually made it home home, because the west coast of Africa is a large place. It's bigger than Europe. Yeah, but at least they made it back. As you can imagine, all this does not reflect well on Van Buren.

No. So much so, he is made the bad guy in Steven Spielberg's Armistead film from 1997. So there's a film about all this and Van Buren's the bad guy. I've purposely not watched it yet because I wanted to do this episode first so I'm not swayed by the film. But I'm going to watch it. Maybe we

should watch it. We can review it. Anyway, the North looked at Van Buren as a stooge for the South. Still, the world moves on and it's still rapidly changing. Just to give you a sense of where we are in history, in England, a new queen took the throne. Queen Victoria. Oh, we hit the Victorian age, ready?

We have hit the Victorian age. Everyone's now got Victorian-style moustaches. Also, in 1838, the first steamboat crossed the Atlantic. A journey that could take anywhere between one and two months was suddenly cut to two weeks. Wow. Yeah. The camera was invented in France and soon was all over the world.

I thought it was Scottish. I did look this up. Various bits were invented in various places. It wasn't called the Camarilles. Is that where the first photograph was taken? The Eiffel Tower, yeah. Photograph from a rooftop looking down on a cityscape. It's all empty because it's long exposure.

It didn't pick up the people. But there's one person on the camera, somebody getting their shoe polished. Oh, no, I've seen this one, yeah. And they're standing with their leg up on a little stand. That might be the one. Because apparently that's considered the first photograph. Well, that will be around this time if it's not the first. But yeah, all that's happening.

Wow, that's quite a time of innovation. Yeah, it really is. I mean, we think of the time we're living in as rapidly changing since the computer age hit the internet. But it would have felt just the same back then with all the rapid changes that were going on. People are like, back in my day, winning up these photographs.

But yeah, I mean, the rapid change of everything, it must have been a crazy time. Oh, yeah. There were people alive who were alive when Washington was there and the revolution. And everyone's going around on their horses, in their preachers everything seems pretty much medieval almost i mean it's uh yeah and now all of a sudden you've got people

hanging off the front of steam engines taking selfies with their fancy new cameras so that'd be an amazing photograph yeah i mean times have changed yeah yes i just stand still really to really pick up the terror yeah yeah i guess back then there was all very much mechanical changes yes big changes yeah and now it's more software yeah almost micro changes but make a bigger diff i don't know they probably make a bigger difference. I don't know if they make a bigger difference, but they make. The internet did. Oh, absolutely. But the iPhone X to the iPhone 6, I mean. They're the same thing, pretty much.

They really are, yeah. They keep saying it's the biggest new thing since the iPhone 1, but it's not. We all know that. Same as Samsung as well. There's no difference that just gives you a feel of the time that van buren was in uh everyone's a bit miserable everyone's really poor but at the same time there's this excitement of uh huge cultural change going on and also the

canadians are revolting canadians yeah yeah there's trouble in canada they're starting to rebel against the british some of them are many in the US wanted to throw their weight behind this rebellion. After all, 1812 was fresh enough in everyone's memory. Van Buren was able to diplomatically talk to the British and de-escalate things, and also did again when the governor of Maine started to dispute the land between Maine and Canada. They'd never really been sorted out. But again, things were de-escalated by Van Buren. Perhaps something he doesn't get much

credit for. But there could have been tensions there and he manages to just notch it down a point or two. But despite these small political wins, the next election was looming. Van Buren had a problem. He was deeply unpopular just

about everywhere, and the papers let it be known. One time he announced in frustration, and I quote here, why the deuce is it that they have such an itch for abusing me? That's an amazing phrase. What the deuce? It's possibly why they had such an itch for abusing me. You talk like an idiot.

Well, the election drew nearer a congressman named ogle good name stood up and delivered a speech which i'm sure he was very pleased with afterwards because it's the only reason why history remembers him yeah it was a speech that ripped the president to shreds it started as a speech against the funds that the white house had requested for refurbishment i mean it stinks of cheese we need to do something it's still there lingering yeah gotta get rid of it um it's formed a presence it's like a cheese ghost yeah so van buren had asked for some funds we need to redo the plumbing we need to give brian a trim yeah Yeah, exactly. He needs the stables.

Yeah. Yeah, that donkey's going to be there for a while. He's going places. Exactly. Yeah, so Van Buren had asked for some funds. That included a list of things that he wanted to spend money on. This soon became a list for his enemies. Ah.

Yeah, Ogle accused Van Buren of wanting to create a royal palace for himself and proceeded to take the house on an imaginary stroll through Van Buren's new White House. So there he is standing up saying, imagine what it will look like. Come with me as we look at Van Buren's new palace. And it's saying that we start off some episodes. Yeah, exactly. Imagine your... The speech went down very well. It highlighted the extravagances of Van Buren, his slight oddities. And it was also humorously poking fun at him at the same time, or at least to begin with.

He described the house as, and I quote, a royal palace as splendid as that of the Caesars. Quick high five. Always good to start with a Roman reference. He then described the gardens, using Latin and English names for all the flowers, just to make it sound more ridiculous and grand, and then accused the president of wanting to re-landscape the gardens.

And I'll quote here. Hence, the reformers have constructed a number of cleverly sized hills, every pair of which, it is said, was designed to resemble and assume the form of an Amazon's bosom, with a miniature knoll or a hillock at its apex to denote the nipples. You can't say nipples, rather.

Oh, he did. He went there. He did. Wow. Yeah, when this was published, the nipple was dashed out. That got quite a few titters. Why, he's probably making a boob out of himself. Yeah.

After this ridiculous description of Van Buren's preferred living quarters, he starts to attack the president personally. All of a sudden, the smiles start to fade as people realise this is getting quite personal. His wife's a what? You can't say that about Brian, he's lovely. Well, I'll quote here, the soul of Van Buren is so very, very, very diminutive that it might find abundant space within the barrel of a milliner's thimble to

form all the evolutions of a whirling pirouette. Then he went on to compare Van Buren with Washington, and this is where it actually starts getting a bit cutting. Washington and Van Buren, bless my soul, what a falling off. Yes, what a fall there has been, my countrymen. After looking back down at the illustrious line of worthies who have occupied the presidential chair, is this not enough to make the heart of any patriot bleed? I do not see what it is that such a nation should ever have made so much of such a small pattern of a man.

He has done nothing but plot to elevate himself. And yet here we are. We are all thrown into turmoil about one little man, as if he was a hero or a statesman. Ooh, that's a lot better than the first insult. Yeah. First one was pathetic. It was a bit metaphorical, wasn't it?

Yeah, a bit too... A bit figurative. Yeah, got a bit lost in it. Yeah. This one, a bit Bernie. This was just now, you're useless, you're small and pathetic. Why should we even spend time discussing you, Mr. President? Yeah. Imagine after this Van Buren's protest that all he wanted to do was get rid of the cheese smell.

Fallon deaf ears. Yeah. It's making Brian sick. Now, it is often said that laughter is the politician's worst enemy. I mean, they can hate you. They can fear you. But once they start laughing at you, there's trouble. And this is when the's worst enemy. I mean, they can hate you, they can fear you, but once they start laughing at you, there's trouble.

And this is when the election kicks off. Yeah. Yeah. Van Buren, who'd worked so hard at promoting Jackson, who was so good at electioneering, now found that his political opponents had been watching and learning. And the trouble with wanting to recreate the two-party system, which is what he wanted to do, is that you not only create your own party, you also create an opposition. The Whigs

had thrown their weight behind a war hero, a man named Harrison, and now they used every trick that they possibly could to support their man. They got all the ideas that Van Buren had before and put them on steroids. Using the newspapers and the trains, they were able to spread their message quicker than ever before. Or expedient, you could say. Yes, exactly. Attacks and outright lies were printed against Van Buren, but there was nothing Van Buren could really do apart from declare them as lies. By that point, people had read them. Unfortunately for him, most people were ready to believe anything bad against him because he was just so unpopular by this point.

Yeah. And also, not everything was lies. Many had justifiable reasons to no longer trust this career politician who never really seemed to stand for anything. Yeah. The Whig movement kept growing. Someone took things to another level, and soon products were being sold with Harrison's name on it. Shaving foam, tobacco, cider.

Harrison's prophylactics. Yes. The EC booze distillery sold a huge amount of Harrison whiskey. This is the booze distillery, which is where we get the word booze from, meaning alcohol. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, there you go. That's amazing. It's a little factoid for you. Oh, he gets my vote. Yeah, definitely. He's giving whiskey out. Yeah, he's giving out booze. Quite literally.

I'm voting for Harrison, definitely. There was another genius who wrote a song using Harrison's nickname, which was Tip a Canoe. Now, a man named Tyler was running with Harrison as the vice president. So you had Harrison and Tyler. And a musician somewhere wrote a song about the two of them. And using modern technology, the song could now be written down, printed, and those music sheets sent out. And soon enough, everyone in the country from New Orleans to Boston would know this song. And what is amazing is that we can now listen to that song brilliant go on then so yeah

this is a first in well over 100 recorded episodes that we have done yeah that we actually get to listen to something that happened in history it's amazing yeah the song's only about a minute or so long so i'll play the whole thing to you okay you ready you ready to play? Yep. Off you go. Oh, who has heard the great commotion, motion, motion, all the country through? It is the ball a-rolling on for Tippecanoe and Tyler too, for Tippecanoe and Tyler too,

and with them we'll beat little Van, Van, Van as he used a pan, and with them we'll beat little Van, Van, Van is a used-up man And with him we'll beat little Van Sure, let him talk about hard cider, cider, cider And lock habits too It will only help to speed the ball For Tippecanoe and Tyler too, for Tippecanoe and Tyler too And with him we'll beat little Van, Van, Van is a used up man, and with him we'll beat little Van.

Like the rush of mighty waters, waters, waters, onward it will go, and its course will bring you through, for Tippecanoe and Tyler too, for Tippecanoe and Tyler too For Tippecanoe and Tyler too And Willem will beat little Van Van, Van is a used-up man And Willem will beat little Van Wow! You like that? I did like that, that was quite nice.

It was quite a cool little jingle, isn't it? Yeah, it was really cool. I was doing my research and I had Van, Van, Van is a used used up man for quite some time. For all weekend I've had that in my head. Oh, nice. I like that. That's nice.

Yeah. So, I mean, this is it. This is the election process entering a new phase. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't that long ago. You just had people saying, no, I'm not getting involved. And the people need to realise that they need me more than I need them. Whereas now you've got people with acoustic guitars

going off and out of the country singing songs like this, handing out whiskey and shampoo. Yeah. Yeah, things are changing quite a bit. Oh, wow. So that's the Whig Party. All the Democrats really managed to do in return was try and appropriate a saying from Boston.

Boston. Boston. Which was all correct. Which was a way they'd say instead of all right, yeah it's all right, it's all correct. Only it was said in a certain accent, in a certain slang way, to be all correct. With an O and a K. All correct. Yeah. All correct. Obviously that was shortened to O-K.

Oh wow! Which Bjorn and his followers tried to push this new saying that people were saying. It means old kinderhook. Kinderhook, where Van Bjorn comes from. This could be a nickname. Let's give Van Bjorn a nickname because Jackson had the nickname. Old hickory. Old kinderhook.

It will remind people of Jackson's nickname. Plus, it's linked to this new slang word that's around and yeah there you go you've just blown my mind it's it's amazing that is where we get okay from we get booze and okay and all those things from this period is it's amazing yeah in the space of a campaign yeah i um i quite like the song but you've got to admit OK stuck more than the song did but it didn't really do much for Van Buren no

the same caught on the election was a foregone conclusion the election process was so successful that 80% of those eligible to vote did so a huge percentage of course this is still white men with money but those eligible to vote did so. That's a huge percentage. Of course, this is still white men with money,

but those eligible, a lot decided to vote. Unfortunately, not many of them liked Van Buren. He got 60 electoral votes. Harrison got 234. Oh, that's a whitewash. Oh, yes. That's a tsunami. Yeah.

However, despite the opposition taking over, Van Buren stayed for the inauguration speech of Harrison, which not every president has done in the past when it's passed from one party to the other. No, I guess so. So that's good. He sat there, listened to the longest inauguration speech in history.

Harrison liked to talk. And the weather was horrible that day as well. Yeah. You had to sit through it. Without, you had to give it away? How long did the speech last for? Well, we've got Harrison's episode. I know, that's why I'm going to give it away.

Yeah, we'll talk about that in his episode. I'm hoping it's a good, like, six hour. I'm thinking of quoting it in full. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. So anyway, Van Buren heads home. As always, we're not really going to cover his post-presidential life because it gives away things that happen in the future. But just know he

increasingly becomes anti-slavery as time goes on. Which leads some historians to think he was always anti-slavery. He was just politically trying to keep the South close to stop things falling apart. Or the historians say he just changed his opinion

as he got older. it's really hard to say to be honest he did dabble with the idea of running for president again a couple of times in 44 and 48 wow but nothing really came from it he he's sort of involved in the formation of yet another party at one point called the free free soil movement and we'll uh we'll go into that when that happens but yeah so he does get off he does quite a few things he went to europe had a bit of a holiday and then in 1862 he dies of pneumonia at the age of 79 wow it's a good age at that time just in time to see the civil war oh brilliant yeah the fruits of my labors yeah and. And there you go. That is Van Van, a used-up man.

Nice. Yeah. He's an interesting person. He is. Just happened to be president at the worst possible time. He got so unlucky. He really did. He had a winning hand beforehand.

Oh, he really did. Yeah. Do you remember our interview with People Be Potous? Yes. And before we started started we were talking about Van Buren briefly. I think I put a snippet of it at the start of the episode Right at the start

American Jamie just talked about what a terrible hand Van Buren was given There wasn't much he could do I agreed my parents apart I think Still it's time to judge him. Statement! Good.

He was, and it's hard to argue with this, a fantastic politician. Oh, yeah. In the sense that he was able to build consensus and create a democratic party. He created one of the political parties that still exists today. I mean, that's

points in the win column there. Absolutely. Yeah. He pushed the election process out of the 18th century into the 19th century. He modernised it. Yeah. He was able to perform his duties well enough as president. I mean, he managed to de-escalate things with the British, which was quite good.

But presiding over one of the largest economical crashes in US history, it's always going to be tough. And it was. He attempted to solve the problem, but didn't really get anywhere with it. Yeah. But at least he tried, and because of the way he always towed the middle line, he was able to pull together some kind of compromise. Yes.

It didn't work brilliantly, but it's better than most people would have been able to do at the kind of compromise yes it didn't work brilliantly but it's better than most people would have been able to do at the time that's true and and some of the strategies he formulated or used were implemented later on yeah in history as well yeah so i mean there was that um he attempted to compromise and keep both sides happy with the slavery issue uh you could argue that's not great it's delayingly inevitable yeah but you could argue that's not great, it's delayingly inevitable. But you could argue that's looking, in hindsight, the Civil War is not inevitable at this point. So possibly you could argue that. Bad, however, you can't escape the criticisms that are levelled at Jackson. He

supported the move against the banks, the economic policies he was behind, and the Indian removal policy. It's not like he was there clutching at his pearls, screaming all the horrors that was going on. I mean, Jackson gets most of the blame for it, but Van Buren was there as well. Not a big one. Yeah, and some of the worst of it happened whilst he was president. And he said it was all great afterwards so he certainly deserves some criticism for that and sometimes you just need to make a stand as a politician you need to have conviction yeah and he did he never did that you can be a good politician without convictions but you can

never be a great politician no so there's no way he will ever be considered a great president he was never going to be doesn't matter what happens because he never showed his convictions no so yeah um it's a tricky one because there are more positives however that i think the negative is far outweigh the positives yeah definitely in many ways uh i'm gonna go for four i was gonna go lower than that you're going lower i was thinking like three actually no why am i even going to four what did he do that was good again? I was thinking two. Oh, no, no, no, no.

He created the Democratic Party. That is why he's got the three. That is big. But at this point, it's nothing. It's just another group, isn't it? Yeah, but it is the formation of not just one of the two major political parties. We can't count the Civil War in hindsight. We can't count that in hindsight.

Well, yeah, but what you can do is say it was the first real political party. Before that, it was more kind of vague formations. Okay. A unified force. Let's go for five, then. You've already written your three down. Are you jumping off that much? But it's quite a big thing.

I'm still only going to give them four. I'm actually four, then. I'm actually four. You're matching a four. Okay, that is four apiece. That is eight for statesmanship. Dis'm not going to match five. I'm actually four then. I'm actually four. You're matching a four. Okay, that is four apiece. That is eight for statesmanship. Disgrace, Giggits. Really not much personal here.

No. He may have been Aaron Burr's son. That's brilliant. Which we decided is definitely true. And if so, is scandalous. But I mean, in real life, it almost certainly is not true. And even if, is scandalous. But, I mean, in real life, it almost certainly is not true. And even if it is, so what?

Did Aaron Burr have sideburns? Yeah, they look quite similar. They really did. Then I'd say it's a definite. He owned a slave, like I mentioned. I mean, this is nothing like Jackson, Jefferson, Washington with their plantations. It literally was a slave. But still, it's owning another person.

Yeah. Not good. Right. Apart from that, nothing personal, really. However, and I think this is where we need to draw some lines and clear things up. In fact, we both just had an off-air discussion to clarify some things. Oh, what did you stroke we think? Well, I'll tell you, Jeremy.

Yeah, to try and make things a bit clearer and i think this works so we don't need to change anyone's score um at all i think this does work with the way we've been doing things but now we're going to actually make it clear um statesmanship is all about what people do as the state as the president the. Yeah. So if you've done something wrong as president, something morally reprehensible as the president, that's marked off statesmanship. Yes. So the Indian Removal Act marks off in statesmanship. That was the state doing it. And we took that off for that. And we did. We took lots of points off Jackson for that. Whereas in Disgracegate, we're thinking this should be more

personal. It's what you do as a person. Now, Jackson, even if you don't take into account the Indian Removal Act, still did so much personal reprehensible stuff. I'm happy he still gets four marks. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And also the earlier presidents owning slaves. I mean, that wasn't the state owning slaves. That was them personally owning slaves. So they got marks in this round as negative points. So we're going to make that clear distinction now, eight episodes in. Statesmanship, the state, does Grayscape

more personal? Fair enough. So we're not going to give Van Buren points for his involvement in the Indian Removal Act in this round. He lost the points in the last round for it. Fair enough. So we just need to give him points for the last round for it fair enough so we just need to give him points for the fact that he did own the slave and uh he may have been at remorse son which i really don't think we can give him i think he sat on the fence too much so even prior to being

president can you give him points for disgrace gate for just being a bit non-committal it's a bit disgraceful though because he's doing it politically he's doing it for a reason so everyone likes him it's a power play and that's you know we talked about a lack of conviction he didn't have that well like like ogle said all he's ever done is plot to to further his own career yeah but if we start giving points out for that they all get points yeah no fair point well i'm gonna give him minus i'm gonna give him a couple of points for owning a slave

I don't think he should have as much because it's not a big plantation I'll give him minus two but it's not great and I can't give

him anything for Burr yeah I'm gonna give him minus two he really didn't do too much bad in his life that's minus four

off his total score okay well I think he wins on this one quite a lot because he has his film by steven spielberg or a part of his life well exactly it's not his whole life epic is it but still that's quite impressive i'd love to be have a film it'd be very boring film but at least steven spielberg will make it very dramatic what about your life yeah what about that time you saved the orphans from the lorry? Well, there is that.

Yeah. And then raised them. And one of them won the Nobel Peace Prize. Well, there is that. And there's the thing about the animal sanctuary as well. Yeah. It was on fire. Yeah.

And those scars. Yeah. I still have. And you overcoming being clinically dead for, what was it, 16 days? Years. Years. Years, yeah. He'd be able to make something out of that. I don't know.

There's not much to work with. Anyway, Van Buren. I'll try and make Van Buren's life sound interesting. I honestly quite enjoyed researching it. And the first episode on him was brilliant I loved it but when you actually stop and think

right how would I make this into a film well let me break this down born in a small Dutch community hello in the tavern cleaning

the glasses glug glug glug you're opening up on the set of cheers that's what you're doing yeah everyone walks in everyone laughs and cheers

yeah exactly then job cleaning the fire he gets dusty he goes out and he buys himself a sharp suit he became a lawyer there was an election

and he became a senator in New York and political fighting against Clinton that might work fairly well maybe if done well

then the election and to become a national senator the formation of the Democratic Party, the election of Jackson, then the petticoat affair with Peggy. Might be able to do something with him reaching for her knocker.

Trip to England, sampling the ale. Vice president for a bit, then he was president for a bit, and everyone was sad. I think you're being too flippant with that. Far too flippant. Really? The last episode was so engaging and interesting It's the manipulation

The parties you can have The way he's manipulating people It would have to be done very well And if it was done well it would be amazing To create a true political drama He would be the best so far Almost noir style It would be tricky to do i think so

i suppose him trying to outmaneuver calhoun all that stuff might be good and even even the panic of everything going wrong around him yeah in his voice as president just the downfall of him sitting in a cheese smelling white house on his own with a sad looking donkey next to him yeah everything's created falls apart yeah i suppose so is that he just just him just panicking just like trying to like trying to put out so many fires it's not working he's trying his best but everyone's hating him still the lies the propaganda spreading and you know these evil people spreading these lies like oogle whatever his name was and the song and the song just a minstrel following him wherever he goes then then yeah i'm not a used up man i think it's more interesting you're giving it credit for

it's certainly not not the dullest it's the creation of the democratic party it's the only thing that's saving it though and i don't think i can go any higher than five for this oh i was gonna be like four yeah i'm no i think i'm gonna go for about four as well that is eight okay do you want to see him then oh i'm dying to see him well here he is wow it's like his head's on fire yeah there are some relatively impressive sideburns he's fairly old in the um official portrait. I mean, he's approaching 60, but he never really had any hair on top. He was always bald like that, with big sideburns coming down the side.

Or like that. Yeah. When that happens to me, that's what I want to do now. Yeah, big sideburns. It's the way forward. He's got quite a friendly face, hasn't he? He looks really happy. He's fine.

He fits the character I think yeah yeah just imagine him looking younger with sort of brown hair

and slightly less sticky out that's what he looked like when he was younger so it's the kind of face you'd trust you'd

chat to him you can imagine him saying hello yeah exactly and in the official portrait he's there

he's there. He's leaning on a cheese slice for a book. It's like a wad of papers. I'm not sure what it is. It's money. The economy is collapsing. Yes. I found some money, guys.

It's mine. Yeah, he's got a red chair near him. A reddy, velvety background. Yeah, it's got, again, it slightly harks back to to the washington one from the beginning yes with a similar pose but it's the symbolic yeah less roman imagery in this one uh but no i i like it i like his look uh that's why i think i see him perfectly i'm gonna go for seven i'm gonna go for six it's not pyroot. Okay fair enough. So that's 3.25. He's a one term president.

So one point for terms. No one tried to kill him as far as we can tell. I mean they were some cutting lyrics but he wasn't actually. No. So no points in assassination. Election he gets a one scoring 57.8% of the electoral votes.

What about his second one? Oh, he lost, so it's not going to count. Yeah, so it's not a landslide win. It was just a respectable win. So he scores 1 point for election. That is a total of 2 points for the bonus rounds. So that's a total score of 17.25. Sorry, Van Buren. i'm not our lowest uh jackson's disgrace gate just pulled him down he's still our bottom oh yeah uh but it's it's

not a brilliant score it's our second to lowest which i don't think will surprise many people no probably not no probably not but it leads to the question tale of two halves yeah very much so isn't it it's a shame um he's got a lot of positives yeah certainly the beginning of his life i think the the wrangling the first politician we said and you said that yeah first politician we've had he created the the democratic party which is still around now in some guys and you could argue a lot a lot of the things that happened in the presidency weren't his fault it was just a poor victim of circumstance and you know you could put Lincoln in there or Washington they may not have dealt with it any

better yeah I was this time last episode I was like he's gonna get it yeah me too it's like this is really impressive stuff yeah but doing my research on the second part of his life it just i don't think you can be that bad as a president and get american if he was an american he would have done something about it i'm not saying that was possible i'm not saying it's fair but just a fact it's just a fact. Well, he did do something about it. It just didn't work.

Yeah, exactly. He's closer than I thought he'd be. Oh, absolutely. I'll be honest, I didn't think we were going to have any until Lincoln. But I don't think he can have it. No, I agree with that. Which is a shame. Sorry, Van Buren, you are an Americant.

Which is a shame. He's a used-up man. Okay, well, thank you very much, everyone, for listening. That's a bit of a downer at the end there, not giving out an American, but that sometimes happens. That's life, I'm afraid. That's life, it is. Right, so thank you very much for listening.

Please leave reviews if you're enjoying this. Yeah, please. Yeah, go onto iTunes, leave us a review. Okay, and next time, is Harrison or Tippecanoe? Tippecanoe. What are your expectations on him? I don't know. You don't know anything about him, do you?

No. How do you think he'll be as president? Not great. Because people, when we're doing the multicast. Oh, you're nice. Oh, yeah. They just kept saying it's really dry now until lincoln so hopes aren't high we'll see how he does okay next time and anyone who knows american history

are now probably grinning he's like the best president ever isn't he we'll see right okay um thank you very much for listening all that needs to be said then is goodbye hello hello oh Mr Van Buren nice to see you wonderful to see you Peggy it's been so terrible for you recently. Oh, it has been. Don't listen to them. All the rumours about all the young men lies. Lies, Peggy.

That's true. They were like, well, four of them were. Well, anyway, I'm here to offer my support, Peggy. Oh, thank you. You've always been a such a... Yes, anyway, right, I've got something I need to say. General Jackson. Oh, the President. I just happened to be wandering past the White House the other day and... Oh, yes.

I couldn't help but think General Jackson, and I'm sure you agree with me here, that General Jackson, isn't he a wonderful, wonderful man? Oh, yes, he's quite nice. Don't tell him that I told you that, Peggy I definitely shan't Good Secrets are a bond kept forever between friends

Yes, well, just don't tell him Don't tell him what? That he's just a good man, good, all-round man Just a good man? Oh, no, the best man in the city Oh, in this, well, the city's quite small The country, dear lady, no, the best man in the city. Oh, in this... Well, the city's quite small. The country, dear lady. He's the best man in the country. There are more people in the world.

The world is the best man in all of history in the world. OK, and you don't want me to tell him that? No. Good, I won't. No problem. My lips are sealed. Well, I mean, you don't need to seal them too much. Take your hand away from your mouth. I can't understand a word you're saying. Would you like a cup of tea?

What? Tea? No, no, we're talking about General Jackson. Oh. Anyway, don't tell him. Why are you winking? Is there something wrong with your eye? Are you having a stroke? No, no, I'm just making it very clear that you're not to tell General Jackson. I said it won't. You are going to the White House later, aren't you? No. Well, maybe you should think of going. I should? Yes, and I'll tell you what, hang on a second. What's that? What are you writing down there? Just a quick note. Right, I've just written

down what you can't tell General Jackson. And if you could just, when you're in the White House, make sure you don't leave this on his desk. You're winking again. Just make sure no one ever sees this note, Peggy. That's fine. I'll burn it. Look at the flames. Fine.

How much do you want to put in a good word with General Jackson for me? $5, flips. Fine. How much do you want to put in a good word with General Jackson for me? $5,000. Done. You've just spilt your drink all over yourself, haven't you? I have, yeah. Yeah. It's so cold. It looks cold.

It's just soaking. You've just got a wet t-shirt now. You're not even wearing a t-shirt. It's a shirt. That's all it's called. I've got a t-shirt underneath, though. Have you? Is it soaked into that? yeah yeah i thought the polyester in the shirt was a hold

it out for a bit longer but do you want to do anything about this are you going to pass right now i'll pass through okay i'm a martyr rob you know that the listeners i can hear them cheering me on in the background come on jamie don't give up you can do this fair enough I can we'll struggle on I believe in myself