American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Election Special: Wicked Game

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

In this election special episode we are lucky enough to get to chat to the people behind Wicked Game: American Elections. They have covered every American president election in US history, and we get to pick their brains about the most recent one. How it played out, and predictions for the future! 

It's November 11th, 2020, an overcast day in Birmingham, England. Outside, copper leaves cascade to the ground. A sense of impending renewal fills the air. Inside, Rob walks confidently into his home office and eases himself into a chair. It squeaks in protest, its cheap bearings grinding. Rob is the host of a podcast that, to his delight, has an audience. He's about to record a new episode, but it's not the anticipation of that which has him in such high spirits. Instead, Rob is looking forward to gloating.

Meanwhile, merely some 15 miles away, Jamie puts down a razor. The impossibly youthful-looking man risks a cautious glimpse into the mirror, casting his eyes and then his hands over his newly-shaven jawline. Suddenly, Jamie's attention is wrenched from the mirror to his laptop. A zoom alert brings him panicking into the present. He's forgotten his appointments. Rushing over to the laptop, Jamie clicks a key to accept the call. It's Rob calling. Jamie can see him in his office, his mouth moving, but no sound. Rob, Rob, Rob, you're still on mute. Rob gives a stricken look and fumbles for the keyboard. All right, is this working? Can you hear me now? Ah, there you are. So, what are we doing?

Who are we doing? What's going on? Rob cracks a wry smile. It's the interview with Wicked Game tonight, Jamie. A moment of recognition bridges the miles between them both as they acknowledge the enormity of their situation, their lives, and indeed the lives of their listeners. We'll never be the same again. My name's Lindsey Graham, and this is Totalius Rankium, election special.

Hello, and welcome to American Presidents Totalius Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, and we are not ranking all of the presidents from Washington to whichever one's the current one at the moment, Because now we are interviewing someone. This is a very unusual episode because we're not doing history. No. It's current affairs, Jamie. And when it comes to current affairs, we figured we should probably get hold of some more of those genuine Americans

that we sometimes manage to find. Yeah. And talk current affairs with them. And it is a privilege to welcome back and to welcome a couple of people. First of all, we have Stephen, who has been on the show before, but we also have Lindsay Graham on as well. And well, I'll just pass it over to you guys. Why did we choose you to talk to, do you think?

I have no earthly idea. Why did we choose you to talk to, do you think? I have no earthly idea. I'm presuming that you chose Lindsay and myself because of our fascination and obsession with American history and American politics. Look, this is one of the last times I'm going to tolerate being confused with the senator. You probably thinking you're talking to someone who knows something about US government, but look, I just have the same name. Yep, yep.

Not that Lindsey Graham, a very different Lindsey Graham. Yeah, I probably should have pointed out at the start that this isn't Lindsey Graham, Lindsey Graham, but it's Lindsey Graham. But I'm not sure that would have cleared anything up, to be honest. Graham, but it's Lindsey Graham. But I'm not sure that would have cleared anything up, to be honest. It must be so hard online to be a Lindsey Graham right now.

Yes, I can. I can pretty much tell you without ever reading a newspaper or anything else about of current events when the senator has done something because my Twitter mentions blow up. The past couple of days have been exquisite. I really enjoyed them. The truth is, though, I do actually kind of enjoy it because the people who make the mistakes are mistake makers. And so they are of an ilk that fall for things. And I like to play along and poke and prod as much as possible.

The only person I'd be confused with is the scientist who came up with the third Boyle's law to do with gas. I mean, it's just not exciting. No one's confusing me on Twitter. I think that's very exciting. It's more exciting than mine. The only other Stephen Walters that I'm aware of is, I believe, a Christian songwriter, and I don't know that anybody's reaching out to him or me.

Do you have anyone, Jamie? Apparently there's a Canadian guy who invented some sort of engine for a boat. That's it. I will tell you, Stephen, I just Googled you, and I am really envious because Stephen Walters, you're all over the front page of your Google results. I have a picture of you, voice actor. I know what movies you were involved.

People also searched for, you know, and you've got a Wikipedia page. This is all, Lindsay, this is all my mother. She's responsible for all of this. What's interesting here, though, is there's a, you've got, the third reference is for Stephen Walters, the English actor. Oh, yes. Yes, that's right. But my envy here is that you have any mention of first page Google results at all. Google me and it will say, did you mean this?

And you and you say, no, I really meant with an AY. And Google will keep insisting that you may you meant an EY. I'm lost in the search engine wars here. It's going to be it's going to be a tough road ahead. Speaking of the 2020 election of Joe Biden's first term going to be a tough road ahead. Speaking of the 2020 election, of Joe Biden's first term in office, a tough road ahead. Well, speaking of elections,

that is obviously why we have called you on. And we're so pleased you agreed to come on the show because obviously you yourselves have come up with a fairly popular, shall we say, history podcast, a very ambitious podcast, where you have, in the space of just over a year, covered every single election in American history. Where did that idea come from? Well, Lindsay approached me with this idea about, I guess, a year and a half ago, and I'll let Lindsay tell you about it. But I was probably the only person insane enough to say, yes, I will, a year and a half ago, and I'll let Lindsay tell you about it, but I was probably the only person insane enough to say, to say, yes, I will help you with this. And I'm glad

that we did. I told Lindsay the other day, I'm incredibly proud of what we've accomplished on this podcast, but it has been, well, it was a tough road ahead. Yeah. So, you know, I realized that we haven't actually mentioned it. So Steve and I are the is the team behind the podcast American Elect, uh, in which she had one episode per president. It was more biography than it was, uh, what we could game turned into. Yeah. But, um, I, uh, I, I liked that concept. It felt neat. It had an ending point. Um, so, uh, you know, if, if, if we wanted to bail, we had. But really, I wanted this podcast to educate Americans and obviously others that what I knew would be tumultuous and divisive is not unusual. is not unusual.

We have been through similar, if not worse, times in our political history over and over again. And it was a search for solace, really, and a reminder that we shall overcome. Now, I'm sure everyone is worried that this particular incident is different, but I don't think it is too different. Certainly, when the shots were fired at Fort Sumter, that was different. But yeah, so this was a survey of every single election to discover or rediscover that dirty tricks and underhanded shiftiness has always

been with us. It sounds like a very similar path I went down when I first decided, oh, you know what, we should do presidents. Now we've done emperors. Because I just wanted to know, is this normal? Everyone's talking about this is unprecedented times. Is this unprecedented times? How much should I be worried about the state of the world? So let's go back and actually look at each president one by one and find out. It's quite a journey to go on. I certainly, I'm finding that.

Stephen, you did the research for Wicked Game. How did you find that? Because that must have been tricky, doing one episode a week and you've got a strict deadline because if you mess up, you'll miss the 2020 elections. Yeah, you know, I mean, from a tactical matter, it was just about having enough runway making sure that i budgeted my time um and making sure that i knew just enough but not too much to not

be able to see the forest through the trees i mean i think one of the things that we i think one of the things that we succeed at doing um in the in the scripting of wicked game is making sure that we're looking at it from a sort of 3,000-foot view and only zooming in to get lost in the weeds when it really matters. You know, distilling complex, nuanced, you know, political optics down to sort of digestible nuggets is not easy. But like anything, you get better at it as you go along. And, you know, what I found in the journey from 1789 to 2020 is that, you know, I've said this before in multiple

interviews, but it's a bit like one of my favorite sci-fi TV shows, Battlestar Galactica. All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again. And that's- So say we all. Yeah, so say we all, indeed. And, you know, it's like the Winston Churchill quote. This is sort of my driving force. This is really like, if I had to sum up what my voice as a writer is in one quote, it would be the Winston Churchill quote,

those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And I think that that's really at the heart of most of my work as a playwright, as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and as a podcast creator. And that's sort of, all of that has proven to be true as I've as I've made this this journey through history with Lindsay, which has been remarkable, terrifying. I mean, you mentioned earlier you said, should we be should we be scared, you know, or worried? I mean, I think about what's happening right now in the aftermath of the 2020 general election. I don't know. I do think that there are things about what's happening right now that are unprecedented. I don't know that we should be scared or worried, but I do think we should take it seriously. You know, I think when you see the Secretary of State

Mike Pompeo make the comment that he made this week, I think you have to take that seriously. That's the Secretary of State of the United States of America. That's our chief diplomat, right? But you have to take that seriously. When you see Trump cleaning house in the Department of Defense, I think you have to take that seriously. And whether what's motivating President Trump right now, whether that is psychological, whether this is about his ego and his fear of losing and his inability to accept losing, or whether this is about an attempt to steal something i think either way we just have to take it seriously yeah yeah it's serious stuff politics yeah it is it's not something you should make a light-hearted slight comedy show oh boy oh well going back to your research, Stephen, I know I found a sudden ramp up in information as soon as you really hit the 1900s.

You said trying to make sure you can see the woods through the trees. That's when I've started to find it much more tricky. Was there any particular time in history that you covered that you found harder than others? Yeah, I think, I mean, the early elections are difficult because, you know, it's just, it's so distant from, you know, what we have today. And yet, the mechanics of the political electioneering and the, you know, battles for power are very similar to what they are today. It's just that the system that these games, these wicked games, as John Adams called them, the system that they were happening inside of was just a little bit different. And so I think that making the listener understand in a digestible way how that system was different was a bit of a challenge. But, you know, in those early elections,

you know, everything pre-12th Amendment, you know, 1796, and 1800. In particular, it was wild. I mean, it was absolutely wild. And the election of 1796, the president and the vice president were from two different political factions. You know, and in the election of 1800, there was a tie, and it got kicked to the House of Representatives. And, you know, I mean, it was, it was a complete and total disaster. And so, you know, through that prism, what's happening right now doesn't seem unprecedented. You know, like the fact that we have we you know, we have this contested result if we're if we're going to be generous and call it that. I think I think that's a little bit too generous to the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. That's just my opinion. But certainly we have had these crises before.

I think what makes this one different, what makes 2020 different is that the thing that Trump is doing has actually not happened before, you know? So this is only, if you think of it from a historical perspective, this is only the third election in American history that's happened on the heels of an impeachment, right? You know, we've got the election of 1868, you know, Grant versus, I guess, Seymour. We've got the election of 2000, Bush versus Gore. And then we've got the election of 2020. All three of those elections have a lot of similarities

and a lot of parallels. And there's, it's always, there's no calm after the storm. There's chaos after the storm. And each of them in their own unique ways played themselves out in improbable ways. But there's a lot of there's a lot of parity between those three elections and a lot of similarities, particularly if you look at 2000. Right. We had this very, very close election. There's no doubt this election is close. I mean, even though, you know, Biden will likely win the popular vote by perhaps as many as six million, seven million. Right. When it's when all the votes are counted from an electoral college perspective, it's very, very close.

Just like the 2016 election, it's come down to, you know, what, 100,000 votes? I don't know the exact number right now, but it's going to be tight. Same thing in 2000. Except, you know, obviously, in 2000, it came down to one state, Florida. Now we've got sort of these, you know, conflicting things happening in multiple states right across the country. But it's just interesting the way that history repeats itself. Well, talking of history repeating itself, and perhaps you'll both be able to answer this one,

what is the most shocking thing that's come up in everything you've covered? Is there anything that's made you go, oh, wow, I wasn't aware of that, or actually that was a lot worse than I first thought it was? And also, just to make it clear for our listeners, Stephen, you're the main researcher and writer.

Lindsay, do you have any impact on the scripts, or are you the narrator? Well, Steve, do I have any impact on the scripts? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, Lindsay and I have worked together in a bunch of projects spread out over a bunch of different mediums in the podcast space, right? Audio drama to, you know, these single narrator shows. We definitely work in tandem together to build these things.

Lindsay's an incredible editor and also has, you know, a good conceptual vision of what a story is. So it's definitely a collaboration from, you know, top to bottom. Yeah. And this is not my only podcast. This is my third weekly podcast. And so I have relinquished much of the writing, editing, producing duties because I had to. I'm doing three of these a week. And so it's always been a bit of a contentious point for me that the listener should understand that I'm not the entirety of these projects. Oftentimes, as the voice, as the narrator, I'm given the full credence. And I want to make it clear that no, at this point, I'm narrating,

but I have longstanding partners like Steve who we've gone through the process so much, uh, prior and, uh, we've developed a rhythm and, and I think Steve understands me as, uh, and, and I understand his writing. Um, so it's, uh, there's been a few times in which, uh, I've kicked something back because I didn't understand it. I think that's the biggest thing I've kicked something back because I didn't understand it. I think that's the biggest thing for me is I don't understand it. And that's not a factual problem. That's more of a story arc problem. Something will bump into me as like, I lost the thread.

I don't know where it's going or what the connection is. And so I'm really just the final check to make sure that this narrative works. I suppose, in a way, in Totalus Francium, that's your job, Jamie, in real time rather than there being a script that can be

kicked back if something isn't clear. Your job is to go, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I just ask lots of awkward questions. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I've just just realized it was a poor question it came in two parts um so i i'll just go back to the uh the original question which uh was uh is there anything that you have covered uh that really stood out as uh shocking yes i i'll take that one. I think that the biggest impact that this process has had on me is that it has confirmed my suspicion that a lot of the things that I was taught growing up, I'm from Texas. I'm one of those weird liberal Texans. I don't mind outing my political worldview.

I'm a socially conscious liberal. Obviously know, obviously issues of civil rights and justice and equality are at the core of my sort of political worldview. And I think that a lot of the narratives that were taught in school growing up, particularly in the South, but all across the states, tells what I call the sort of lost cause mythology version of history. Which says that, you know, that says that the Civil War was primarily an economic matter and sort of kind of brushes slavery to the side and makes it sort of secondary, ancillary, or in a lot of cases, non-existent, right? And I think that the thing that's crystal clear to me now in my reading of history is that we are where we are today, this country in 2020, in large part, because we never had true reconciliation in the aftermath of the Civil War. You know, the reasons that led us to the Civil War are plain, you know, the original sin of slavery was at the heart of

that. But in the aftermath of the war, reconciliation never occurred. You know, John Wilkes Booth assassinating Abraham Lincoln, I believe, robbed the country of a real chance for reconciliation because his successor is you guys. We talked about this, I think, for an entire episode. But Andrew Johnson was uniquely unsuited to bring the country together. That's a polite way of putting it. That's a very, very diplomatic way to put it. You know, you could also argue that it was not going to be an easy task and that no matter who it was, that even Lincoln at the top of his game would have struggled. I think that's probably true. Similarly, I think, you know, if you look at the task before Joe Biden today,

I mean, it's, it's, this is a deeply divided country and those divisions, the, the, the roots of them, the seeds of them happened during the reconstruction era. And they're still with us today. This, this, you know, divide between the This divide between the elite and the working class, this regional divide between north and south, the coastal states versus middle America, the class divides, the social divides, the racial divides, all those things are with us and they can all be traced back to the Reconstruction era or to the original scent of slavery. And that's been the biggest thing. No, no, please, go ahead. As I say, if I could give you both a magic wand,

what would aid towards that being reconciled perhaps a little bit more? If I could go back in time and change something? Well, you hit on the Lincoln, it would have probably insurmountable that you would have at least tried, at least gone partway to achieving it. But even now in the future, is it something that you think, is the rift always going to be there? Or is it something that could,

with a little more pressure from one side or a little bit of relenting from another side, make it more flowy? I think the sad truth is it's bleak, but I think it's always going to be there. You know what I mean? I think tribalism is a part of human nature. And I think it's, the sad truth is it's bleak, but I think it's always going to be there. You know what I mean? I think tribalism is a part of human nature. And I think it's incumbent upon those of us who want, like in the United States, who want the Constitution to live up to its highest ideals.

I think it's incumbent upon us to, at every opportunity, give voice and advocate for those values of justice and equality. But, I mean, this is the other thing. It's like all this has happened before and all this has happened again. I mean, every time there is a massive push by folks in power to try to move the needle of justice, there is always, you know, for every reaction, there is a counterreaction, right? And we see that in history time and time and time again. I mean, I believe, and this is just my opinion,

but I believe Donald Trump, you know, there's a lot of reasons why he was elected. I just finished the, you know, the 2016 episode. We could talk about that all day. But, I mean, but one, you know, Van Jones on CNN the night of the 2016 election, he called it a white lash. You know, and that's an oversimplification. But, you know, to folks of color living in the United States, that's how it felt. And that pain is real. That doesn't mean that's the only reason that it happened. But, you know, in the wake of our first black president, we have a person who is, in my opinion, the most detestable person to ever occupy the office and one of the lowest individuals to ever walk the earth. I mean, I think I do not. I think Donald I think Donald Trump is as bad as Andrew Johnson, if not worse. Don't hold back, though.

No, I won't. I'm probably on a list now, but I don't care. Well, has the... Because obviously you have gone through, one by one, every single election, and you started that not too far from the 2020 election. In fact, because you guys are just ridiculous in America, your elections last forever.

Yes. You were in the middle, you could argue, of the 2020 election when you started Wicked Game. That's right. And I'm just going to point out to any of our american listeners elections in in our country last by law a month you can't start campaigning before that month starts right and that's it yeah it's it's so nice that we've got that i never appreciated that i got into american politics i just wish they'd apply that to christmas christmas items you can buy in shops yes but yeah

going back to to the question um so you you've gone through every single election but you started in the middle of the 2020 build-up did your views or opinions of the 2020 election change as you were doing the research as you were putting this podcast together? You know, 2020 has been a year. Yes, it has. And so for me, it was just a confirmation of the mission of the podcast. I mean, because really, we packed a lot into this year. Really, we packed a lot into this year. We had just about every single problem in America's history in this year.

And so it was the project was just this fantastic mirror of our own moment. And so, you know, the pandemic aside, which, you know, we can also point to as something that we've gone through before, but just the strife and the fight for racial equity, so much has happened in this year that we can point to throughout this process. So the question was, did this year affect the project? I would say the project affect my view of this year. It just reinforced that, although this is an extraordinary concentration of events in one year, that we've been through this before. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's not for nothing. The 2020 election started on January 20th, 2017, which was Donald Trump's first day in office. And I don't I mean, I mean that literally he filed to run for reelection on his first day. So the election began on day one. And now I believe if you look at what's happening in, you know, today in 2020,

what's happening in, you know, today in 2020. I think a lot of what Trump is up to right now is, you know, laying the groundwork potentially for him to start his own cable news network. I think that's why you're seeing him amp up the rhetoric that's anti-Fox News. But also, I think a lot of the folks in the Republican Party, guys like Ted Cruz, they are already eyeing the 2024 election. So, you know, if the Republican consensus today is that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president, they're just starting the 2024 campaign before the 2020 election has been officially certified. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It's just a continuous cycle, which you do get in any kind of politics where you have elections. There will obviously be that continuous cycle, but it really does seem to be

ramped up to the max in american politics it does it makes me very jealous uh of of the system that that y'all have we uh we are our system certainly has its faults yeah yeah the electoral college is just a nonsense uh but we actually have something very similar. It's the same as everything in life. It's just not quite as big or bombastic as the American version is. It's more British, more restrained, more... It doesn't like to cry, you mean?

Yes. Yeah, exactly. No one's loudly shouting about it in the streets. We just occasionally tut about it as we pass each other in the street. Whilst queuing. Right, well, we've talked about Wicked Game, and it is an amazing podcast.

And if any of our listeners, for whatever reason, have not listened to Wicked Game, go and listen to it. It's fantastic. And I really enjoyed it when you overtook us, because then I could start using your episodes as prepping for my episodes. Well, you're welcome. Which was nice.

Glad to be of service. But let's start talking about the election that's just happened, shall we? Yes. And also maybe a bit about 2016 election, because let's face it, the two are very closely linked. I mean, what did you get up to on, I was about to say election night, what did you get up to on election week, month? Were you staying up and watching it? No, I was fully prepared that this was going to be a protracted process. I was completely comfortable with that. Certainly, I have my own personal

memories of 2000. And it looked like this was going to be close and contested regardless. So I just went to bed. Very wise. And then I continued going to bed for the next several days until really, I guess it was Saturday, right? When the pollsters and media outlets started to call it. And my biggest task at that point was just changing the cover art of the podcast. And so, yeah, there's some satisfaction that I was able to do that timely. And then, of course, the big question was, what happens next? And I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. Every day is completely fresh.

A virgin field of unknownness. And I'm just astounded. I did the opposite. I did not sleep. I was glued to the television, as I have been for the last four years, like a complete and total crazy person. And I am still, this is a nice respite

from what I've been doing with my days, which is staring at the television in complete and total horror. You know, they say Trump's bad for America, but great for ratings. And I am a case study in that because I just can't take my eyes off the horror show. I just can't. Was there a particular network you were glued to?

Oh, no, I go through all of them. I click from CNN to MSNBC to Fox News. I mean, I want to hear what the conservative media is saying because, you know, we do live in two different information realities in our country oh yeah i found it fascinating flicking between cnn and uh fox news yeah as as results were coming in just to see how it was all being reported that's fascinating i mean it's it's absolutely fascinating and i have a lot of because i am born and raised in texas i have a lot of conservatives in my family and in my inner circle and i like to know what information they're getting so that when i tell them how wrong they are i at least have an understanding of of what it is that they think right and what they're being told guys that's the question

how do they reconcile being a conservative with trump that's a big question that's a big question so so i think i think you have to realize that uh that these labels mean nothing and haven't for a long time. The fact that a full quarter of persons who voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries that she lost to and to Obama then switched and voted for McCain. The fact that 10 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters did the same and the center of the Democratic Party, as there is between parties at all, indicates that this is just a fantastically mislabeled, misunderstood melange of opinions that every person has and can't quite put their own finger on. Yeah, right. I completely agree with that. And I think a lot of, honestly, I think a lot of the neoconservatives, I would define

that in the most simplest terms as being the George Bush Republicans. A lot of them did not vote for Trump the first time. A lot of them did. And most of the ones I know who did voted for Biden in 2020. And I think that that tells you that the short answer to your question is, is that the true conservatives out there do not reconcile it and have turned and have turned on him. Yeah. But, you know, the vote count doesn't bear out that anecdote as it as as as universal. Clearly, 48.7 percent of Americans or whatever it is, it's close enough to that,

you know, still call themselves conservatives and still vote for, for, uh, Trump and many of them enthusiastically. Um, so I have this problem. If there was another mission for another podcast, it would be to, it would be to explain these concepts to investigate what conservatism means, what capitalism means, what liberalism means. I would like to take four or five weeks and just ask the question, what is a political conservative? Because clearly that we know the party has changed, but there have always been conservatives. And even in this show in particular points it out that the conservatives had less policy agreement with conservatives today as as they do temperamental agreement. Yeah. And I mean, I think that I think that would be a fascinating case study. But I would argue, Lindsay, that there are true conservatives in America, right?

And I don't just mean like Tea Party conservatives. I mean, you know, true classic conservatives that consider themselves like strict constructionists when it comes to the Constitution. And I think a lot of those people did come out for Biden. I mean, you know, what is it? 25 more million people voted for Biden than they did Hillary Clinton. And I think that that's in part because he brought Republicans, moderate Republicans and some conservative Republicans under his tent. And I think that it's equally true that the reason that Trump got so many more votes in 2020 is because he grew his coalition.

So, I mean, you know, I do I think it's not necessarily binary. I think that there are a lot of people on the right who call themselves conservatives and don't really know what that means. Just like I think there's a lot of people on the left who call themselves liberals and don't really know what that means. You know, I think I think you're right there, because like because I think a lot of people punish Trump because you're not conservative, but the conservatives did vote for their Senate members, for example, because they're doing quite well, aren't they? They are. Yeah, they are.

Which is also the great fallacy in Trump's claim that the election was rigged, right? It's like, so all these secret Democrats get together and they go into these polling booths all across the nation and they rig the election so that Trump loses and Biden wins. But they don't take the time to go down ballot. I think that's genius. It's the last thing that who would ever who would ever root that out. You know, if I were writing this, if I were writing this, let's say as a follow on to, I don't know, terms, the podcast terms, I would have the sneaky Democratic conspiracy steal the election for the Senate, but not for the presidency.

Because then they could hide it and impeach him again. Yeah. And actually get a conviction in the Senate. Perfect. Right? Perfect. That's drama right there. That is. impeach him again, and actually get a conviction in the Senate. Perfect, right? Perfect. That's drama right there, that is. But then a plucky young journalist finds out.

You know what, let's just do it now. His name is Julian Assange. So did you predict, or did you even make a prediction on the election and if so did you get it right uh because jamie and i uh did it did a little bit yeah yeah which is why jamie's clean shaven at the moment and and how what were your predictions i'm curious to hear that and i'll tell you mine my prediction is it was very boring. It was Trump was very unlikely to win in 2016, and he won. But it was always a long shot.

Sometimes long shots come in, though. And in my opinion, it was going to be even harder for him to win this time than last time. Didn't mean he couldn't, but it was even more unlikely. win this time than last time. Didn't mean he couldn't, but it was even more unlikely. So if I was to make a bet on, say, a bottle of whiskey and the fate of Jamie's chin, I would bet on Biden. Yeah, I appreciate that approach. And it's similar to mine. So depending on what figures you look at, there was a 30 percent chance that Trump would win in 2016. And so that 30 percent came in. Every once in a while you roll snake eyes, right?

And but to do it twice would be increasing the odds. Now, that's some statistician is going to yell at me because that's not exactly true. He would have precisely the odds that he would have in 2020. But that gambler's fallacy felt right. But more than that, I think I believe, touching on something that Steve said earlier, that Trump was almost an inevitable occasion of the Obama presidency. And in the pendulum swing of politics, he swung it really hard. And so it was inevitable that there would be the equal and opposite reaction and he would reap what he sowed. We see the pendulum all the time. It's fantastic to me that there is such a wobble in American politics, but it's there.

in American politics. But it's there. It's the, you know, the axis is not straight. It always precesses. And so for that reason alone, I thought that Trump would lose. I predicted that I was wrong. I predicted that Hillary would win in 2016. And of course, you know, Trump pulled the inside straight. We all did. But, you know, to be honest, I know, I know. But to be honest with you, I felt, I feel that if the coronavirus pandemic had not happened, I do believe Trump would have been reelected.

I said the same thing. Yeah. No, I'm not convinced. I think there's a lot of American, I mean, just to tell you why I think that, I think that there are a lot of Americans, I think they think there's a lot of America. I mean, just to tell you why I think that I think that there are a lot of Americans. I think they are predominantly white males who tend to vote through purely economic lenses. Right. Like they all the decisions that they make are about their bottom line. And it does. The other issues just don't matter. They're single issue voters in the way that the evangelical right or single issue voters over abortion. in the way that the evangelical right are single-issue voters over abortion.

And I think that the economy, I mean, it was undeniable whether you attribute that to the policies of Barack Obama that Trump benefited from or whether you attribute that to Trump's tax cuts and, you know, America first policy. It doesn't really matter. The fact is, is the economy was booming until the coronavirus pandemic happened. Yeah. And then it fell apart. And I mean, you know, a sympathetic view to Trump is, is like, well, that's not really his fault that the pandemic happened. The economy falling apart, it's not really his fault. The unsympathetic view is the one that I take, which is that he could have kept the economy afloat had he, you know, used the powers of the presidency and the federal government to shore up the economy and protect the American worker and the small business owner during that time. But he chose not to. He chose to downplay the virus.

He didn't know how to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'd say that there's an argument that could be made, though, that coronavirus was so politicized in America, and still is, but in the lead up to the election in particular, that it became a political issue rather than a medical one. As in, people took their sides based on who they were already going to vote for rather than seeing the virus as a reason to change votes.

Now, obviously, you'd have to do a lot of research into these kind of things to see whether those statements hold up. You know, when that Woodward audio leaked you know of him talking about how deadly the virus was i think that was back in february and then saying that he deliberately chose to downplay it because he didn't want to panic the american people i i i said to my dad who you know i said to him i said listen if this if he gets re-elected after this tape then he really can shoot someone on fifth Avenue. Like he really can do anything. Oh, you know, I didn't find it that damning.

I did one. It wasn't surprising to, I've never been convinced that the, the president Trump does anything with, with a lot of forethought or, or absorbs information and carries it with him to process later. He, I think he was just parroting what happened and said what he was thinking in the moment. or absorbs information and carries it with him to process later. I think he was just parroting what happened and said what he was thinking in the moment.

This seems to be his methodology throughout. He likes phrases. He picks them up and he uses them again in quick succession. He has no filter publicly or privately and no real ability to be cautious in his thinking. So it was just par for the course. I don't even know that if he believed that the virus was dangerous, even though he said he did or understood it. said he did or understood it. I have no idea what this man actually thinks because he proves over again that he changes his mind too often. And so it wasn't damning to me because it was just

more evidence of a person of an incautious thinker. Yeah. And I think that's the point I was trying to make is if people have already made up their mind on trump his reaction to the virus it's not going to make that much of a difference people either accept the way he is and are happy with it or they're not uh and yeah the coronavirus is huge and in every other country in the world i think it is politically uh shaking things up uh I think Trump was better placed than most to be able to weather that storm because he's constantly in a storm. Everything's always lashing around him.

So when something big comes up, he just carried on. I mean, his is a narcissist logic, right? It's like, as long as he is the subject of the conversation, it doesn't matter if it's good, bad, or indifferent. As long as he is at the core of the national conversation, he's happy. He wants to be in the spotlight. And that's, I think, very clinical of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder,

which I believe that he has. I just felt like that that tape mattered in the context of there being two 9-11s a week in terms of the amount of Americans who are dying. And I just think that it did. I think that for a lot of neoc are dying. And I just think, I think that it did. I think that for, for a lot of neoconservatives that I talked to, right. They think of themselves as compassionate conservatives. You know, they remember that, that feeling of, of despair and unity in the wake of 9-11. And then they're watching on the news is that many Americans are dying doubly every week. And then you have a president who's downplaying it ostensibly for political gain.

I think that that was for many of them the straw that broke the camel's back. Jamie, you thought Trump was going to win. Yes, I did. Why? I'll be honest. I don't think a lot, like, people don't listen to each other. What? We don't hear why people, why did you vote for trump well you're an idiot

and that entrenches people further oh you're just a redneck hick you voted for trump i felt that was a swell in 2016 it was a shock to me that he got in 2016 i think for a lot of people it was um and i could feel that again it's like even though all the cars were literally stacked against him that the correct these terrible mismanagement of the coronavirus. But what Trump is fantastic at is giving out disinformation, sorry, lies. Yeah. You know, I've got the best economy in America. Yes, but you were handed a golden card when he took over from Obama. You know, it's things like that.

I felt that he'd be able to switch it in some way. And yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, nobody lies more frequently than President Trump does, right? I mean, that goes with the territory with him. What I find, I don't know, researching the 2016 election, thinking about why Trump won the election out of this myriad of reasons, these complexities and these nuances. One of the things that sticks out to me is that he did speak to the heart of something, something that Bernie Sanders was speaking to, which was this disenfranchisement that's born from economic injustice, right? The working class of the U.S., particularly white working class in the middle parts of the country, in the Rust Belt primarily,

but not exclusively, feeling that they've been left behind by the political system. So for them, it wasn't about Republicans or Democrats. It wasn't about conservative or liberal. It was just about, well, this guy's either what, our Molotov cocktail or he's he's our con artist. Right. He's our crook. You know, he's going to fight for us. How much do you think is a problem that this really stood out to me when I was listening to your most recent episode? How much of a problem is it that in 2016 the race was almost Bush v. Clinton? Well, are you pointing at, you know, just the existence of political dynasties? Yeah, yeah. And how much do you think that puts people off? I don't know. I mean, you should ask all three Adamses.

Well, but I do think that that I think it's this, you brought this question up, because I think it touches on this idea of disenfranchisement, right? This idea of being disillusioned with the system and this idea of feeling left behind. It's like Clinton and the Bushes, Jeb and George and George H.W. are a part of a system that seems to have no place for some of these white working class Americans in places like the Rust Belt. And then you couple that with, you know, a big movement towards identity politics in the sort of left wing of the Democratic Party that also is telling these same people that perhaps they don't have a place in the new America, right? And what you're left with is you're left with people who, I don't believe that all Trump supporters are racist. I don't think that that's a fair assessment of fair generalization. But I

think I think some of them are just like I think there's probably a lot of racist Democrats out there. Right. But I think that I think that the confluence of all those things sort of leaves the door open for a guy like Trump to walk in and say, I alone can fix it, you know? So I don't know. I mean, I think that the political dynasties are a problem. I think that the sort of coastal elites, as they call them, sometimes are a problem. I think the mainstream media is a problem. I think those things are contributing to this powder keg, which I think the biggest problem, though, is not the political dynasties, not the mainstream media. I think it's social media. I think it's that we're living we're living in two separate information realities. And I think that that is going to be such like I think I tweeted out one time. one time, it's not surprising that America is a show. I'm paraphrasing myself in a terrible way right now, but it's not surprising that America is a show because we were not evolved enough to have supercomputers in our pockets. You know, we don't know how to reckon with this. No, I completely

agree with that. We've out-marketed ourselves. I'm deeply suspicious of democracy as a way to do anything. I kind of stick with, you know, we're quoting Churchill a lot here, but, you know, that it's the worst system except for all the rest. But I do think, you know, thinking about political dynasties, why do they happen? Well, they happen for two reasons. One, there's the grooming factor. You do what your father did, sort of. You grow up in a political household, and you see the trappings and advantages of it, and you become a politician. Many, you know, just ask any of the children of the Beatles, and you'll see why they may want to have gone into becoming a musician themselves.

But also, there is the entertainment factor of this. This is a sequel. This is, they are performers. They see how to do it. They know how to do it. The family grooms them to do it. The audience expects them to do it. They know how to do it. The family grooms them to do it. The audience expects them to do it. And they're comforted with a reprisal of the role.

Dynasties speak to the most dangerous portion of democracy, and that's a blindness to the issues in favor of the packaging. Well, you can see why, because familiarity is comforting, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are probably, I don't know why movie stars exist. There are so many very, very talented actors, and yet, you know, there's probably 50, 50 movie stars, you know.

Even if there's 150, it doesn't really matter. Someone could really save a lot of money by not hiring Tom Cruise next time. It's generally a good idea. But it never happens. Stephen, you mentioned the country being divided at the moment. Yes. You hear this a lot.

Whilst I was watching the coverage of the election, every five minutes someone was talking about how divided the country was. Is this true, do you think? Yes. Okay, next question. But is the country more divided than it has been in the past based on everything you've covered in Wicked Game? Or do you think it's more a case of the divisions are just being

broadcast louder? I think it's the latter. I don't think there's an argument to be made that we are more divided today than we were during the Civil War, right? I mean, I think that's a preposterous argument. But I think it's that we're divided in a new way. And I think it's the amplification of the disinformation that's new, right? Disinformation is nothing new. Using the media, the press, as a weapon to attack your political opponents is nothing new. Spreading scurrilous lies and, you know, exposing dirt and scandal on your political opponents has been going on since, you know, Jefferson versus Adams in 1800, right? There's nothing new under the sun.

But what's new is the technology, what's new is the amplification. And these algorithms, I mean, I don't know if you guys have seen The Social Dilemma on Netflix. It's an incredible documentary. I highly recommend that everybody watch it. But that's what it's speaking to, right? It's speaking to this idea that these algorithms are, I think there's a bit in the documentary where they say, you know, a tool is something that you set down on a table and you pick it up when you want to use it, right? But social media, these algorithms are not tools. These algorithms are artificial intelligence. They're actually manipulating you, right?

Because you are in this feedback loop. If you're on Facebook, the stuff that's in your feed has been curated by a supercomputer to give you the thing that's going to cause you to engage with it, right? Whether that's, I don't know, pictures of beautiful women or beautiful men, depending on your preference, whether that is clickbait that's related to politics, whether that's clickbait related to conspiracy theories like QAnon, whatever it is, it's going to give you more of it and you're going to keep clicking. And if you're in this feedback loop where you're not being presented with the alternative point of view or with additional information it's easy to see how something as insane as q anon becomes mainstream in the republican party and it's because it's it's being fed to them through these advanced

complex algorithms and and i think that that is the biggest challenge that biden has to overcome and that we have to overcome and that we have to overcome as a global community. I mean, I think this isn't unique to America, right? We're going to have to figure out how we reckon with this powerful tool that we have in our pockets now. And, you know, whose responsibility, and I don't know the answer to this, but whose responsibility is it to fix this problem? Is it Mark Zuckerberg's responsibility or is it the Congress? I mean, you know, you could make an argument that Congress makes the laws in the United States,

so they have to regulate this technology. But then is that suppression of freedom of speech, right? This is an incredibly complex issue and I don't know what the answer is. And it's the same issues that America have been wrestling with ever since the country was formed. Yeah, yeah.

It's how much power do you give to a government so you can live in a democracy without them just becoming tyrannical? Which is what I find interesting is that five, ten years ago, definitely, I almost found that view almost quaint if that's the right word to use it's like it's the way america thought a hundred years ago 150 years ago but why would anyone be thinking that now uh but with things that have happened recently these are questions

that are coming up yet again these are the same questions that have been coming up ever since washington took power yeah absolutely i mean that's that's that's absolutely true right the the mechanics have changed only because the technology has changed but the but the schematics are the same right it's i mean they're they're like i said earlier they're playing the same game They're just playing it on different turf, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I think that you look at what the Biden administration is going to have to deal with. What is it?

What's the tally right now, Lindsay? Is it 75 million to 71? Oh, I don't know. Something to that effect. That sounds about right. Roughly, right? Something to that effect. That sounds about right. Roughly, right?

So 71 million voters are going to, some portion of that 71 million voters are going to believe that Biden stole the election. So how is Biden, and that's by design, right? I mean, this isn't an accident. This is on purpose, right? This is a strategy. This is an ability to stop America

from becoming a socialist nation. That's what the conservatives and Republicans think. That's what they think that they're doing, right? Do these people know what socialism is? Well, I mean, they seem- No, that's episode three of my next podcast. No, they hate socialism, but they love their social security.

I mean, it's unbelievable. But how is Biden, this is what I guess what I mean, is like, how is Biden supposed to bring these two sides together when there's that much space in between what they think reality is? Oh, no, I don't know that that could be Biden's task. Of course, he has to say this is a moment to come together, be a uniter, not a divider, blah, blah, blah. You know, the ordinary pablum.

But I honestly feel that if I were Biden, I would ignore it. I would use the entire reach and strength of the executive to get across exactly what I want to get across in policy and do what I think the conservative element is doing in their lip service to Trump. This is expediency. This is political expedience. There's no way that any career politician like my namesake, Lindsey Graham, for instance, can switch his rhetoric pre or post-Trump win so severely. He is not a stupid man.

He's a very savvy man, in fact. And I would suggest that if I were elected president and I had a Democratic agenda that was thwarted for four years, I would just honestly shut my mouth and do the thwarting myself. I would just honestly shut my mouth and do the thwarting myself. And there would be no, the playbook would be pretty similar because it obviously works and if you look at FDR as a case study for, you know, a politician who is perceived as being moderate by his own party, who brought in sweeping progressive reform and, you know, obviously pushed through the New Deal. Right. One of the things that he did to build a bipartisan coalition is he put Republicans on his cabinet and he gave Republicans,

he put Republicans in positions of power. I think Biden has an opportunity here because I think that most Americans, I think the majority of Americans are moderates, whether they lean to the left or whether they lean to the right. I think that they would probably, if the chips were down and they had to identify as being something, I would think they would identify as moderates. I think it doesn't seem that way when you're on social media because the fringes on the right and the fringes on the left tend to yell the loudest from the back of the room. But I think Biden has built a coalition. The margin of victory is tighter than I'd like it to be.

But I think one way to assuage, if you think that unity is the goal, one way that he might go about that is by taking his cues from FDR. Because if you bring Republicans into the tent and give them, which he's done, and give some of them positions of power, then it sort of belies the argument that he's this puppet for the radical left. On the other hand, if you go the other way and say, we're going to push this through, we're not going to wait. You know, it's hard to say which one will have, you know, greater effect. But I think that there are some historical precedents for him to consider in terms of building, you know, a bipartisan government.

Well, that's the Democrats and where they could go. Yeah. What about the Republicans? Because I think this is going to be the most fascinating thing to watch over the next upcoming months. Where do the Republicans go? Because they've got two choices, as I see it. They either lean into Trumpism or they try and revert.

And it's going to be interesting to see where they go. What are your predictions? I don't think there will be any reversion. I think the focus will shift. I mean, it depends on what Trump does himself in his post-political career. He clearly carries with him some importance and a fan base of sorts.

But I also think that that fan base is fickle. And what the Republicans have learned is that they can do almost anything, which is kind of what I said about Biden. The political lesson of the last four years is that you can do anything if you have the power, that norms are there to be broken, that there is no restraint, even legally sometimes. And you should just go for it. It reminds me of a, if you've ever played like intramural softball, if a team is just slightly better than another team, they'll force errors on you. It's embarrassing. And if you're the slightly less better team in which the base runner just keeps running because he knows if you try to get him out, you're probably going to throw the ball wrong.

And he can just keep running and keep running. You can't catch him, even though, uh, the, the game should be played in a manner that if he just, he should stop because that's, that's the prudent thing to do. Um, I'm not sure how softball is going to carry over into this, not sure how softball is going to carry over into this, this, you know, your audience, but. I was going to say, I'm sure that will mean a lot to most of our listeners who are from America, but I, in my head, I'm just imagining a game that's crossed between cricket and tennis.

That's about right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, go ahead. So, so to, to step back from the analogy, the lesson that's been learned is that you just keep running. If you were expected to be tagged out, if you're expecting to be find any resistance, just blow through it. And I think that's what we've seen. There are no repercussions. I think that's what Trump has taught the world, or at least reminded the world,

is that there was almost a hidden set of rules, an agreement unspoken amongst politicians and the public that certain lines would not be crossed. And he, like you say, just blew through them. And every time that everyone stood around looking aghast at the wreckage that was left behind,

oh, he's already gone. He's on to the next thing. And it's always catch-up. I mean, you could argue Trump is a true progressive. Well, you know, I have something like, I don't know. I have something pretty inflammatory to say. And this is going to ruffle some feathers among legitimate historians, of which I am not. The party systems, right? I'm sure you guys came across this not, the party systems, right? I'm sure you guys came across this

in your research on presidents, right? We are in, you know, a certain party system, a party alignment, right? It's the sixth party system in American history. And just to give you the Cliff Notes version, I won't bore you, but by most historians' accounting, the first party systems, the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans, it's born right alongside our country and it lasts 20 the andrew jackson years that's

the second party system where you got the democrats and the wigs you got the third party system which ushers in the republican party the modern day republican party and it's cemented with the election of abraham lincoln you got teddy roosevelt's accidental presidency in the wake of mckinley's assassination brings us the fourth party system, which is the growth of the progressive era. And then you've got, you know, FDR's ascendancy begins the fifth party system. And then in the 1960s, we have the modern day sixth party system. Right. And what they're like, there are two things that are true about all of those shifts in the party systems is that they always happen in the middle of great internal division this isn't surprising between the moderate factions and on the left the progressive factions and on

the right the conservative factions and the moderate factions and those party realignments always happen with the rise of a transformational politician usually a president right i just named a bunch of them i believe and this is my inflammatory thing that's going to, you know, ruffle a lot of feathers. I believe that it's possible that we have reached the end of the sixth party system and that Donald Trump is going to be the president who ushered in a new political realignment. To go back to your original question about what's going to happen with the Republicans, I think this is part and parcel of what I'm saying. Just like on the left, the progressives and the moderates are literally at war with one another right now, right? You saw that in the Democratic primary in 2020. You saw that in the primary in 2016, between the moderates

and the progressives, Bernie versus Hillary, you know, Bernie and Elizabeth Warren versus, you know, Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg, right? The establishment versus the progressives. On the right, they are having the exact same conversation. So the Republican Party is going to go, basically, is going to go one of two ways. It's going to go the way of Trumpism, likely, or the moderates in the party are going to try to wrest back control of the party. They're going to try to reestablish and root the Republican Party in its more traditional values. But I think that what's interesting is, is that the Bernie Sanders crowd, Lindsay mentioned this earlier, that after, you know, in the 2016 election, 10% of Bernie Sanders voted for Donald Trump. Bernie Sanders supporters voted for Trump. Why is that? That's

because in the Venn diagram of Bernie Sanders, liberal populism and Donald Trump's, what do you want to call it? Republican populism, conservative populism? I don't even know what you want to call it. But yeah, the Trumpism. In the Venn diagram of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, there's a lot there in the center. There's a lot of American worker first policies and a lot of free trade policies at the heart of that that Americans like. And I think it's very possible that we're going to see those Trump supporters who voted for him for economic purposes align with progressives

on the left. I know that that sounds hard to wrap your head around, but I think it's entirely possible. Well, I think the way we discuss politics stemming from the French Revolution with left wing and right wing is so embedded now that we do see it as just a single axis scale. And it's obviously more complex than that. Yes. It's a sphere, right? Yeah, yeah. You see things moving all over the place. And I remember reading after the 26th election,

speculating why on earth would any Bernie supporter vote for Trump? But it's like you say, there are things that line up here. If you don't like the way the country's being ran by the same people with the same names, if someone can come along and say I will do it differently,

that was Bernie's message, but that was also Trump's message. Yeah, I mean, if you're a union factory worker in the Rust Belt, who are you going to vote for? Are you going to vote for a globalist, or are you going to vote for somebody who's saying that they're going to bring factories back to your city? I mean, you know what I mean? You've got to feed your family. There's nobody else going to vote for? Are you going to vote for a globalist or are you going to vote for somebody who's saying that they're going to bring factories back to your city? I mean, you know what I mean? Like you got to feed your family. There's nobody else going to take care of you. That's where that's coming from. It's not purely race. It wasn't purely sexism in 2016.

There is a thing there that he spoke to that made him uniquely suited to win that election. And I mean, you could talk about Hillary's pluses and minuses until you're blue in the face, but that thing is still going to be there. I think the only person that could have beat Trump in 2016 was Joe Biden, because he speaks to that community, right? I mean, that's why he won Pennsylvania. He is from there. That's where he came up. That's where he cut his teeth. And he has a special connection to the folks in the Rust Belt. They trust Joe Biden because he's been there for, as Trump likes to say, 47 years. Well, shall we make some bold predictions rather than sweeping generalizations, shall we? Let's do it.

Before we end. Who is going to run for president in 2024 for both parties? Who wants to go first? Well, first we have to, we have to, first, we have to decide if Biden is going to elect to run himself. He's the oldest elected president to begin with. And I, I don't know. And he's already shown a personal reluctance to, to run.

Hasn't he said that you'll just do one term? No, I don't know that he's promised it at all, but I think it's a very, you know, it's something that has to be considered. I wouldn't be surprised if, if given the shape of the nation, let's, let's say that, let's say that the ship is righted. However you feel or Biden feels it should have been. however you feel or Biden feels it should have been. And then he'd be at that point 80, what, 81 years old?

81, yes. Yeah. So he opted out of an election cycle because of family tragedy. He might opt out of an election cycle because he's just tired. Makes sense. So that's the first question. And I don't know. I don't think it depends on the circumstances.

But I would say if the state of the country is good, then I wouldn't be surprised if he bows out. I'll make my prediction. Are you ready? Go on. I think in 2024 that it's possible that we will see our first female president. I think it will either be Kamala Harris or Ivanka Trump. Wow. So you are predicting a full Trump takeover of the Republican Party, then?

Yes. I mean, I think it's already happened. Like, you look at Ted Cruz, right? Ted Cruz wants to be president. And he's already sort of like, you know, setting up the dominoes for that to happen. And you hear Ted Cruz defending Trump on the Sunday talk shows. He's doing that because he knows that to win the nomination in 2024, he's going to have to at least pay lip service to Trumpism. You know, I mean, you got to remember that at the Republican convention in 2016, Ted Cruz didn't endorse Donald Trump.

And just like our Lindsey Graham's namesake, he has now become a sycophant to the president, right? And just like our Lindsey Graham's namesake, he has now become a sycophant to the president. Right. And so, I mean, he's going to have to keep giving lip service to Trumpism, whether he believes it at his core or not. And I believe that Ted Cruz does not. But I mean, I don't I hope that didn't sound like I said something favorable a big battle. I think we're going to have a crowded Republican field in 2024. And I think it's very likely to be Kamala on the left. But I actually don't know who it is. But I do think that Ivanka could very well be our first female president. I think if anybody out there doesn't think Don Jr. is going to run for president and doesn't think Ivanka is going to run for president, it doesn't think Matt Gaetz is going to run for president, then they're not paying attention. Do you think there's a chance that

Trump Jr. and Ivanka both run? Oh, a ticket? Like a Trump-Trump ticket? Trump squared? Oh, I was thinking against each other, but now that's even more terrifying. Oh my God. Make America great again, again, again. I mean, do you think, are you suggesting that Ivanka would try to be a Democrat? No, no, no. Sorry, in the primaries. Oh, in the primary. Oh, God, that would be delightful.

I would relish every minute of that. No, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if Ivanka really has presidential ambitions, but I think she has ambition for power and wealth. So, I mean, I don't think it would be surprising to see her kind of become a more palatable kind of ronald reagan-y version of her of her dad i mean that there was a report i think it's about a year into trump's presidency where ivanka was saying she wanted to be the first female president um i think she has the best chance of any woman on the planet right now really oh? Oh, yeah. I just think Trump's rise was so quick that the demise could be just as swift.

The fact that it's Trumpism. Everything's built around Trump. It's all around his name. People talk about it being his name, but it's not his name. It's him. It's him as a person. If you take Donald Trump out the equation, can

someone fill those shoes? I genuinely don't know the answer to that. I'm not saying someone couldn't. Like it's a cult of personality. It's absolutely a cult of personality. And as you know, the question of whether Trumpism will

continue is probably a question of what happens to Trump and will Trump continue. The Republican Party, I think I've stated and we've hinted at, has discovered the lack of consequences and the breaking of the power, breaking norms. That will certainly continue. But who will be the standard bearer, uh, is, is completely uncertain. I mean, there are legal and financial consequences facing Trump right now that, that just could pull him completely out of circulation quite literally. Um, and so there, there needs to be, that vacuum needs to be filled. Um, I don't know who, who could do it, uh, on the national stage because I don't know who could do it on the national stage

because I don't think there's... I mean, Ted Cruz probably could. He's got the... Well, the snakiness. I was going to say, it's something about the eyes, isn't it? Well, he does it with a straight face and a believable straight face. If he says

something, it doesn't appear to be as fork-tongued as it obviously is. So, anyways, my thought is Trump-ism has to be renamed because Trump is probably going away. I'm startled that Ivanka is a serious consideration in your mind, Steve,

but I see why. But she doesn't have, she's not enough Trump to pull it off. You know, she's a wan diplomat of Trumpism and not the firebrand she needs to be. I have something nice to say. I'll say something nice about Ted Cruz. I think that that guy's brilliant. Oh, he super smart i think he's i think it's potentially pure evil but i think he's but i think he's i think he's brilliant and i think that if anybody could

get it done he can you know he he to me seems like he could keep the trump coalition and the neoconservative coalition together you know yeah he'd be able to achieve everything that trump achieved uh with his eyes shut and without people hating him for it uh i i genuinely think he'd do a lot better job because he's a politician with a trump mindset yeah absolutely yeah and don't forget that he grew a beard so he's likable now yes exactly no no no no no beers don't make you likeable yes they do jamie no one no one likes you anymore i love the fact that when he grew his beard though he just looked even more sinister oh yeah it's like it's like it's like when rick perry got the dark rimmed glasses and then it's like oh he's smart you know it's like it's like how dumb do they think we are right well i've got one more question.

Oh, no, sorry, Jamie, go on. Sorry, I've got a theory. I think 2024, Trump will run again and he'll become president again. You're not letting it go. Is this so you can grow your beard back? I'm thinking it's because Biden's like, everyone's, you know, it's going to be an uphill struggle.

There's so much tribalism now. It's going to be awful. It's a misinformation of fraud. I think the other side will rally behind that and go, yes, no, you're right. It's going to be four years to churn that around the system, implant itself in social media. And I think Trump will run again. I think Trump will be president in 2024. I think the biggest challenge that Trump will face is not even all the legal problems that are about to hit him.

If you, and it really stood out, again, listening to your latest Wicked Game episode, if you just listen to Trump from four years ago and now listen to him, there is a marked difference there. I mean, the presidency ages everyone. Of course it does. It's stressful, even if you do it like Trump did it

I'm not convinced that he will be up for it in four years time I mean as much as I'm going to say he'll be 77 in four years time and who would be president at 77 that kind of gets blown out of the water slightly but I mean

it's, the fact is he's getting on now. Yeah, there might be some support there, but I also don't think he liked being president. No, I don't think he did at all. I don't think he expected it. I think he wanted his network. I mean, I think the Trump network is what he wanted. And I think it could do a lot of damage,

but I also think if it keeps him out of the White House, I say go for it, you know, I mean, like, I think it could do a lot of damage. But I also think if it keeps him out of the White House, I say go for it. You know, say what you want on your channel. Knock yourself out. You know, the thing about it, I just don't trust any any theory of Trump that that ascribes to him any sort of competence. that ascribes to him any sort of competence. So the idea that he can start and successfully run a media network, he's not a Murdoch. He's not a Turner.

He doesn't have the wiles to do this. You can't bully an audience of millions like you can in a closed room, you know, real estate deal. And, uh, and so I, I just, I just don't think, I don't think any, any theory that says that he's, um, he's got a master plan. I don't buy it. No, I, I, I second that. I think the only plan that Trump has is to try to keep people talking about him. I think, and look at us, we're doing it right now. I mean, I think that that's the one, like, and I don't think that that's the one. And I don't think that that's, you know, I don't know that there's strategy behind it.

I don't know that there's forethought behind it. I think it's probably motivated by just narcissism. But I think he does do a good job of it. I mean, he knows how to keep himself at the center of the conversation. But what better way than to apply for presidency in 2024? Straight away. It's like, I'm running again.

Sure. It could happen. I'm going gonna say it's not going to but it's not a ridiculous well no i mean like there's not the stupidest thing i've said there's there's precedent for it you know gregory cleveland pulled it off um and uh and but what a wild Republican primary season that would be. Oh, boy. Because it would be if I'm right, then it's it's open seats for everyone. You know, there's no incumbent at all. Biden will decline the nomination and we'll just have probably the biggest slate of candidates we've ever seen. probably the biggest slate of candidates we've ever seen. Yeah.

Interesting times coming up. That's for sure. Right, I've got one more question, and then a short game if you're willing to play it. Yes. Yeah, okay. This last question, though, it needs to be asked. I'm guessing most listeners of Wicked game have been thinking it throughout most episodes uh why did you not use chris isaac's wicked game as the introduction

music there's a thing called licensing fees it's such a shame i also that's a horrible idea i also i i just listen to that song on repeat in my playlist all the time. I'm not surprised, as you're doing the research. I mean, you know, we did a bad, bad thing. That's all I'll say about that. Right, okay. This game, what I want to know

is what president is Wicked Game? Okay. So I have got one of these really rubbish online quizzes. is what president is Wicked Game? Okay. So I have got one of these really rubbish online quizzes. I'm going to ask you 10 questions, but you need to answer as a podcast. Okay. Okay.

Negotiation. We will find out what president you are. So first of all, what angers you most in the world? Is it injustice? People who are naive about how the world works? Nothing in particular upsets you? Or people who won't step up when necessary? Lindsay, you get to go.

Oh, no, we have to answer as a... Are you going to say injustice? Probably. Probably? I don't like the wording of this because I lean towards the second one. But that's also informed by injustice. So we will compromise and say injustice. Fair enough. Injustice it is. OK, what do you like about sport? Is it the competition, the winning? They give me a chance to show off my leadership skills.

Or I don't. I skills. Or I don't. I don't. I don't. Good choice. Right, okay. I just want to know who's going on to the sports pitch. Shows how much I know. Thinking about showing off their leadership skills in the next game.

Just seems weird. Right, okay, question three. Which of these would people regard as your biggest flaw? So, is Wicked Game, as a podcast, a little too arrogant? Can it be cold when dealing with people? Is it a little dishonest?

Does the podcast live life too dangerously? Can it be a bit boring at times? I think we're too cold. I think we're too cold. Fair enough. Easy answer there. Okay. Question four.

Which of these would be a great way to spend a day off from work? Going to the library. A keg party with an exclamation mark. Question four. Which of these would be a great way to spend a day off from work? Going to the library, a keg party with an exclamation mark, spending the day meditating, watching a documentary, or shopping? Lindsay? Well, okay, so here's the thing. If I went to a keg party, that would kind of indicate I'm allowed to go to a keg party and the pandemic's over so I'm really inclined to pick that one

let's pick that one I was going to say shopping at a library for my favorite documentaries and then having a beer yeah I was going to say only after the keg party let's go keg party I'm in I don't even drink but I'm in which of these is your favorite movie star?

Marlon Brando, Clint Eastwood, Jerry Lewis, Sean Connery, Henry Fonda, Anthony Hopkins. So tough. But we have to answer as a podcast. I think we have to say Clint Eastwood. Clint Eastwood? He's the only movie star who made the script. He was. That's true.

I guess we have to, but I just want to state for the record, no. We'll go Eastwood. Let's go Eastwood. I was going to pick Marlon Brando, but I'll let it slide. Okay, there we go. We're going to end up with a Republican, there's no doubt. Okay, how

would you describe your sense of humor? Is it politically incorrect? A little racy, kind of corny, I don't do humour? I don't do humour. No. The podcast is not humorous, not in the least. It's not. Okay. Would you ever perform in a talent show?

Yes, no, or I'm too shy, which is also no, but just phrased differently. I think yes. We would emcee it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I can definitely see Wicked Game being in a talent show. Wicked Game, the musical. Right.

Do you like to get dressed up for a night out on the town? I do, but my style is a little odd. I don't like bringing attention to myself. What's number one again? Oh, I don't know if that's... I don't know, Lindsay. Do you wear feathers? I mean, that's not part of the quiz. That's just a question Jamie always asks everyone we talk to

what is the second option I don't like bringing attention to myself see I'm inclined to say that because we don't really have much of a of an editorial voice yeah I agree

fair enough okay because if we did my version of it would be called Donald Trump and no money have much of an editorial voice. Yeah, I agree. Fair enough. Okay. Because if we did, my version of it would be called Donald Trump, and no advertisers would give us any money for that show. Okay, number 10.

Where would you like to retire? So, I mean, the podcast is coming to an end now, at least the episodes you planned are. So where's the podcast going next? Is it Las Vegas, a quiet town in the Midwest, someplace exotic like the jungle, or somewhere on the West Coast?

I'm West Coast. That's where I'd retire. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think it's time to just find a beach. Yeah, I'll go beach or jungle, really, at this point. Anywhere where there's not Twitter. Fair enough. And how would you spend a weekend in Vegas?

Would you gamble? We just said we're not going there. Well, you're tough. You got on the wrong flight. So you've landed in Vegas. You've swallowed down your disappointments. What are you going to do as a podcaster are you going to gamble are you going to chase after some loving

are you going to go going to go to some shows or are you going to just rail against all the immorality well I'm recently divorced so I'd probably chase after some lovin', but I think Lindsay is in a slightly different situation. Yes. But the podcast.

Yes, the podcast. What would Wicked Game be doing? Oh, definitely number four. Number four. We rail against the immorality? Yeah, I think so. I don't know. Wait, was strip clubs an option no i i think number two can count strip podcast no i think with our um measured me uh our measured thinking and and and power is a reason we

we would try to we'd try to win against the house and go gambling. I'll second. Okay. Sounds like a painful choice there, but okay, that's it. That's question 10, so here we go. Calculating the results. Let's get the results. It's going to be Martin Van Buren, I can already tell.

Is it Posse? No, no, it's the president I swear these just show up a random one Go on, who do you think you've got? It has to be Trump, right? You've giggled a little too much No, no, it's not that

Okay Is it like Millard Fillmore or something? We're LBJ You are, apparently, an unusual person in a good way, but also some bad. You stick to your beliefs, no matter how unpopular they are, and you have a strong sense of morality, and you refuse to let anyone pull you away from what you believe. You are, of course, Abraham Lincoln.

Oh! That's so much better than what I was thinking you were about to say. You could do a lot worse than picking Lincoln. But you're right, you were a Republican. When I think of gambling keg parties I do think of Abraham Lincoln. Yeah, that's the first place I go.

That's why he was so grumpy during the war so much. It was the hangovers. Yeah, that's why he was so blue. Yeah. So there you go. You can, that's why he was so blue. Yeah. So there you go. You can officially put that in Wicked Game now. You can announce that you are Abraham Lincoln. We are Abraham Lincoln.

As a podcast, which is great. Before we go, what is the future of Wicked Game? Because obviously you've got one more very important episode coming up. Oh, do we? Oh, Lord, help us. Gosh. So the future of Wicked Game.

Wicked Game is probably on hiatus for the foreseeable future. We actually had a little bit of trouble getting advertisers for the show. And we were told that advertisers didn't jump on board because it was too political. Really? The history of political elections? Shocker. Yeah. What I've come to understand is that advertisers don't really care about content much at all. They care about checking boxes and brand safety. And so it's very easy to say, I need this, this size audience and no, no drugs,

sex or politics, right? You can just, you can just cast out a whole section of, of shows that way. And that, that's what happened to us. So unfortunately I don't think Wicked Game can continue. So we're, we're switching gears and I'm, I'm glad to be continue to continue to be working with Steve on a new podcast coming out this January on Wondery I think we've come to come up with a title are we allowed to say yeah they announced they announced on exclusive Jamie. We've got an exclusive, Jamie. Oh, no, it's already been announced. We can pretend it's an exclusive. Right, well, it's pretty...

Exclusive! All right, I mentioned it. Almost exclusive! I mentioned it earlier, and it's called Wicked Game the Musical. Mm-hmm. Wicked Game! Right. So we take the American elections out of it,

and then the advertisers just fall right in. So it's Business Movers comes out. It's the history of business stories of success and failure and the people behind it. And it comes out January something or other, probably middle of January. Wondery is again going to assist us in distribution and ad sales. And we're looking forward to it. I know already that Steve is quite glad to be researching Walt Disney, for instance, rather than Donald Trump. As I keep saying to people when they ask me what this experience on Business Movers has been like so far, I say it's delightful.

it's delightful because it's so um joyful to like explore a character like walt disney as opposed to to writing about say the 2016 election it's just uh it's it's like a walk in the park or a warm bath or a glass of wine or something do you ever worry though that at some point you're gonna have to like donald trump as well no as a Well, because I think we're writing about the most successful businessman in American history, so we can just skip over that bit, I think. I hope I'm not speaking too soon. I definitely think I know the feeling with the idea

of a warm bath. After a while of just researching president after president, you really do feel like you just need to go and have a shower and do something easy and refreshing. You really do. Well, thank you very, very much for coming on our show. It's been great just generally chatting about the election, which obviously it's big news. And yeah, it's been interesting talking about current affairs instead of history for once, which is good. So thank you for coming on.

Well, thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Well, where can we download you? Well, it will be coming out in January and it should be discoverable in any of your favorite pod players. Just search for Business Movers or probably you can sign up for a Wondery newsletter and have it shift right into your inbox when it comes out. Fantastic. Fantastic. Great. Okay, then.

Well, thank you very much for coming on. And all that we need to say then is goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye.