American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Knockout: Group C

Episode Date: July 28, 2024

We go onto group C - otherwise known as the Group of Death! With three of the 4 Mount Rushmore Presidents in one group, who will go through? Licoln, Washington, Jefferson or Reagan!?

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Group C. Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalis Rankium, I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Biden, up to Biden, we didn't do Biden, and it's the rounds. And we've been off for a couple of weeks, Jamie, because of, well, me being injured and you being ill. Yeah.

So it's not worked out. But fortunately, nothing's happened in the world of American presidents. No. Since we recorded. Not as far as I'm aware. No. Did you see anything happen? No, not red knees really. No. That's probably not much then. Nah. Thanks for talking about it. Probably fine. Yeah. We should probably explain for those people listening in the future and don't understand our current references. Yes, someone tried to kill Donald Trump, which lots of people said, well, this is going to change the election completely. He's now got it in the bag. I must admit, I did wonder. It's like, in this modern day and age, things move on fast and you wouldn't think an assassination attempt would move on fast, but who did it? I don't think anyone's

even talking about it anymore. and it only happened a week ago because Biden dropped out. Yeah he did. And now Harris is now the forerunner and oh it's all going on. It's all going on. Do you know I was the same I was thinking oh Trump's got this now because that photograph of him being held up by security service, his fist in the air, blood on his face in front of an American flag is the most American thing I've ever seen. Even I was thinking that's

a cool photograph. It is a ridiculous photograph. Wonderful. I mean, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but wow, you could not stage it better. That photograph was just phenomenal. But hey, it's the modern day that we live in and apparently it doesn't count for much. No. An assassination attempt anymore. Apparently people move on very quickly. So who knows? People in the future will look back at this and go, little do they know that such and such is about to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it doesn't matter who wins the next

election. Actually it kind of does. If Trump wins the next election actually kind of does if Trump wins the next election We need to do the second part of his episode. Oh Yeah, but if Harris wins then that's fine because that comes after we finished. Yeah We could do like a Biden episode in like the patreon thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah I'm fully planning to do a Biden episode at some point. That's always on the cards I just kind of assumed he was there was a good chance he was gonna carry on for quite a while now that he's definitely stepping down soon yeah it almost feels like we should do an episode of him but

maybe maybe an episode for when he actually officially goes yes there will be a Biden episode at some point but anyway this is a lot of waffling about stuff that's happening in the future rather than what's happened in the past Jamie because we need to be judging who goes through group C otherwise known as the group of death. It really is. Yeah. Three big names. Three, three, well four big names. Four big names. But three really, you know, you know, you know. Three of them are on on that mountain. Yes, which is impressive one of them arguably some people say should be on the mountain depending on your political leanings well let's just say who they are Jamie who is in group C well first of all got

Lincoln Abraham then we've got Washington first name George then we've got Reagan first name Ronald I believe and then we've got Washington, first name George. Then we've got Reagan, first name Ronald, I believe. And then we've got Jefferson, first name, I believe, Thomas. You are correct in those names there. So as you can see, this is why seeding quite often is dumb. And some people did comment saying, why didn't we seed? Because this is like a very unfair round. But you know what?

I quite like it. It means our final is definitely gonna be a bit different Hmm, our final is not going to be Lincoln versus Washington or any other combination So only one of those massive names in American presidential history can go through And I genuinely don't know who is going to be the last two. I had a good idea We're gonna go put through I don't know. I've not made up up my mind yet and I don't know who you would choose out of those. I've made a prediction all the way to the end, but looking at it now, I would change my prediction.

But we'll see, we'll see if I'm right. Okay, well, as you know, Jamie, before we do that, we obviously have one of our rounds to go through and this time it is silver screen. Silver screen. Okay, silver screen is arguably a microcosm of the total score. It really is. Yeah, it's more subjective than the other rounds.

It's how interesting are they? Would you watch an HBO mini-series on this person? So, as ever, we're going to look at our bottom first Yeah, and here are the five most boring presidents according to us Did you see I'd say do you want to hazard a guess but by definition you would have forgotten them say Yes, I reckon Obama's on there. No. No. No Obama was far more interesting than these guys Van Buren, maybe? No, he was far more interesting than these lot.

Yeah, I've generally forgotten that's how boring they were. That's why they're on this list. Well, actually, I can't tell you the five because we've actually got six different presidents, not five, because as per usual, we've got a bit of cleaning up to do so in joint Third place we've got four people with four points each. We only scored them to a piece We have got George W. Bush Millard Fillmore Woodrow Wilson and

Calvin Coolidge Okay, they all scored for a piece. So we're gonna have to put those in order. Then, it's nice and clean at the top, our second most boring president with three points is James Polk, and our most boring president of all time, we gave him literally nothing, the only president to get nothing in this round, is William McKinley.

Do you remember anything about William McKinley at all? Wasn't he killed at a train station? Okay so you do remember something. You'd think that would be enough to get you some points wouldn't you? Yeah but it's the end of his life. Yeah. So why is McKinley there? Why is he on zero? So before we clean things up just to remind you because I looked at that and I thought, like you, well I remember something about his life so maybe we've been too harsh here. Quick summary of him. He grew up, he suffered from depression, civil war broke out, and he served under Hayes. I mean all this sounds good doesn't it?

After the war he gets married, had kids, but both daughters die. Very tragic. You'd watch a series about this. Ida, his wife, mentally breaks. Again, drama. And then he gets into politics and everything becomes talk about tariffs. Lots of tariffs. It was nothing but, it was just wall to wall tariff. Anyway, after a long career dealing with tariffs, he becomes president and things change up a bit because then he talks about tariffs again, Jamie. It's just tariffs. So there might have been some bias.

It might be because we were so sick and tired of talking about tariffs we gave him zero as punishment because there were some things in his life that were interesting. He got shot. He was assassinated. It seems very harsh giving a president who was assassinated zero, but like you just said, it didn't make up for his boring obsession with tarots. He was probably a contemporary podcaster at the time that was just researching all the tarots and thought, to hell with this. I'm ending this. Well, I did look back through my notes and I actually mentioned something at the end of the episode. The biographies I had on him. There aren't many biographies on McKinley. See why. And the main one I had was the most boring

book I've ever read. Wow. And then, oh it's just all about Tariffs, and then the, in the American History President series, the thin, quick and easy to read biographies that are really good, and they get to the point. Apart from this one, it did not cover his life in chronological order at all. It just talked about tariffs again. So maybe he's hard done to. Maybe he needs a good biographer. And maybe it's my fault for not being able to find the information in a way that we found interesting. However, we scored him zero. We're not going to change our mind.

It does seem perhaps slightly harsh that a president who was assassinated and fought in the Civil War gets zero, but hey, that's the way the tariffs crumble. So he would love that joke. He would love that joke. He would wryly smile at it. Okay, so what about the four we need to separate then? Coolidge, Wilson, Fillmore and Bush. Slight aside, Calvin Coolidge and Woodrow Wilson sound like two made up names when you put them next to each other. It's only just occurred to me. They do because it's alliteration isn't it? It is the alliteration.

And Millard Fillmore as well because there's a bit of a rhyming thing. Yeah, there is a little bit with Millard Fillmore. Yeah, maybe all this is made up. Anyway. Okay, so what order do we put these? Well, I'll put a couple of things to you first, but then feel free to disagree and move things around. But I personally think we should put Bush as last,

as in most interesting out of this group. I was going to say that, I agree. His lack of score was more to the fact that it just was very irritating that he kept failing upwards rather than the fact that he was dull. Maybe, arguably, we were slightly harsh to him in this round. He did some paintings though, it's exciting. He did and they have made films about him. That I watched, but it's just irritating. So what about the other three? Coolidge. His nickname was Silent Kel. I mean, that's not going to earn you points, is it?

No, no. His life was a simple one. He had a decent childhood. His mother then died. He got an education, went to law school, got into politics. The main thing that I managed to get out of his episode is that we occasionally got a story about how boring and robotic he was. He would just say really boring things and I would just tell you one of these stories about how boring he was and we'd find it amusing. So, oh, you had another nickname

at school where if you translated it, it was translated to mean the word nothing. Oh. Yeah, yeah. He was an empty, empty space of a personality, apparently. Just a vacuum and a black hole sucking all the life from the room. Yeah. He was president during the Gilded Age, wasn't he? Well, at the end. sort of getting out of it. Wilson Woodrow. If you remember him, he was a racist academic, and most of his story was spent with him struggling in academia.

It was not an exciting episode. It went from national politics, state politics, but he was academic politics, the most boring type of politics. Just as cutthroat, but not exciting. So yeah, that was Wilson. And Fillmore, I checked my silver screen for him, and it starts with the words, and I quote, oh dear. So, did not bode well for him in this round. He started off poor, he worked in a factory with his dictionary, trying to learn words. You could get something

there that sounds promising but then it goes downhill he teaches himself law he gets into politics he sort of flirts with the Freemasons remember so we talked about Freemasons for a bit but apart from that it was just him climbing up the political ladder now I know this is hard to judge because I'm asking you to judge three people based on how boring they are so in other words I think we should go for how well do you remember these episodes the ones that you're going oh no I kind of remember that should probably win well when you said Millard Fillmore I went oh I completely forgotten that name it took me a moment to even I have no memory of that episode

at all I think see interestingly, Millard Fillmore is quite often cited as the most forgettable president amongst Americans. As far as I'm aware, I think he is the punchline for forgettable presidents. Ironically, of course, that means he's got a little bit of fame because he's known for being the most forgettable. But anyway, he's the Florianus of American history. Roman emperor reference for all our Roman Emperor listeners. Okay I'm happy for him to be third. What about the other two? See Wilson I know a bit more about because I'm interested in World War One history so I sort of remember the the fallout World War One. I remember him being very tall but Coolidge is quite funny as well because he's so bland he's funny and I think that gives him a presence in a way. Yeah there's a certain dryness in humour and I think if I remember correctly we discussed

whether this was actually just dry sense of humour or whether he was just incredibly dull and it's kind of hard to figure out but just being able to talk about that is vaguely interesting. So I don't know you call it I honestly don't mind. Let's put well Wilson was a racist let's him fourth, let's put Coolidge fifth. Racism is boring Jamie, you're absolutely right, so let's do that. So that therefore is Coolidge in fifth place, Wilson in fourth place, Fillmore in third place, Polk in second, and our most boring president of all is William McKinley.

Excellent. Well done, William. Okay, well they're the people you don't want to be sat next to at a dinner party. No. They're the ones chatting. I was going to say chatting in the kitchen. I like being in the kitchen, maybe that's what it says about me. You are incredibly dull.

We keep telling you Rob, but you keep doing it. No one's in the kitchen with you? I'm a guy in the kitchen talking about the history podcast he does, aren't I? That's not exciting. No one else is there, but you're on your own. There's only so much salt shaken to learn. Fine, okay, well it's me and those bunch apparently in the kitchen who is in the exciting place in the party where's the exciting place in the party in the bedroom Jamie? Bedroom or the bathroom yeah Down the alleyway by the side of the house yeah who knows what's going on there anyway it's

exciting whatever it is it is five names we have three in joint third and then two in joint first so again we've got a bit of cleaning up to do three in joint third and then two in joint first. So again, we've got a bit of cleaning up to do. So in joint third is Franklin D. Roosevelt, George Washington, and John Quincy Adams. Three very interesting presents. I'm sure you all agree. But then in joint first, Theodore Roosevelt and Andrew Jackson. Now, I'd argue this is actually fairly easy. So again, I'll say what I think, and then feel free to disagree.

But between FDR, John Quincy Adams, and Washington, I would say FDR has to come last. I agree. His overcoming polio to steer the US through the Great Depression and World War II is very strong, and he deserves to be up here. But if you remember, we talked through this when we discussed John Quincy Adams. His story is fascinating. He goes through Europe, he sees the Napoleonic Wars, he grows

up through the birth of the United States. His presidency would be a couple of episodes at the end and then he dies on the congress floor fighting against slavery. You would see Washington at the start, you'd see Lincoln at the end. It would just be a damn good series. It would be one of those series that no one expects to be good but the acting is top quality, the script is well written and the history is fascinating. I think that would be better than an FDR. I agree. Yeah okay but then Washington obviously beats both of them. Yes. It's Washington. Yeah. I mean I don't know if you've noticed this but there have been several films and miniseries about Washington. Apparently there were one or two places named after him as well. Yeah so I definitely think that just is just a given. Are you happy with that order?

That's what I put when you're talking, so yeah. Yeah, okay then, so we just need to decide who is the most interesting and we've got Jackson and Teddy Roosevelt. Now, this is close. Theodore Roosevelt travelled the world, he became a cowboy, he fought in a war, he was the governor of New York, a police commissioner, a reluctant vice president, and then an accidental president. It's an action-packed story. Jackson. Equally action-packed. A very sad childhood as the British killed his family. He had reckless teen years. His life is full of duels. He ran off with a married woman. More duels happened. Brawls. He joined the military. He fought the British. He ran off with a married woman. More jewels happened, brawls, he joined the military, he fought the British, he becomes the President, and then the economy just falls

apart because of him. And he did forced death marches on the native population as well. Let's not forget that. A complex character, shall we say, who was arguably the first President who was fighting for the rights of the average American instead of the ruling class. That is a reason why you should see Jackson as a force for good. However, big however, absolutely reprehensible person on a personal level, and on a political level he was not good as well. He crashed the economy and he was quite awful. And forced death marches, Jamie, let's not forget forced death marches. That's why you should see him as an awful blight, a stain, a blot on American presidential history. However, this is not statesmanship or disgrace gate. So we are not judging his actions from a moral point of view or how successful he was.

This is purely how interesting is that story compared to Teddy Roosevelt's. This is really hard actually because my initial thing is move towards Roosevelt because he's nicer and he's quite fun. He collected insects, he climbed on top of pyramids and all that jazz got shot at, carried on speaking but Jackson beat people up. He shot people. Yeah, you could have a whole series on just... Just the duels.

The assassination attempt where someone fired two guns at him in point blank range and they both misfired and then Jackson attacks the guy with his cane. That's cool. I mean, there was some amazing stuff in there. It is close. I am leaning towards teddy so was i because they are so close in terms of how much just crazy stuff happens in both their lives i think teddy might just have it and if i can't choose between the two i'm gonna choose

the person who didn't do the force death marches yeah i know isn't part of this round but it's really hard to get that out your head Jamie isn't it? It really is, that's why I can lead towards Roosevelt as well. Let's go with Roosevelt first position, Jackson second. Okay so in fifth place then is Franklin D Roosevelt, then John Quincy Adams comes in fourth, George Washington in third, Andrew Jackson in second and Theodore Roosevelt according to us would have the best HBO miniseries based on their lives. So HBO, make it happen.

Have you noticed how John Adams isn't even in the top five, and you made a miniseries on his life, which was pretty good, so you could probably do better with Roosevelt. That's all I'm saying. Right, so, we've now sorted that out. That's that round nice and clean. It's on to Group C. Group of Death. Okay, so as we said, at the top of the show, this is a group of death. Let me just break down who we've got here. To begin with, we've got Abraham Lincoln, the first Republican president. He scored a total of 40 points, which puts him in second place.

Then he is up against George Washington, the first president, who scored a total of 37 points, which puts him in fourth place overall. Then we've got Thomas Jefferson, the first of the Democratic Republicans. He scored only 23.5, so a much lower score there, only putting him in 14th place, but he is a big name. He is a big name. And then we've got Ronald Reagan. He's not the first of anything, but he was the first of the modern Republicans, you could argue. Anyway, he scored 28.5, putting him one place above Thomas Jefferson in 13th place. So four very big names, a bit of a split in the scores there. Yeah. I mean, if you look at these, it's essentially between Lincoln and Washington.

But don't take that for granted. Don't take that for granted. Anyway, let's go through. We're going to go through as ever in the order they were drawn in and first up is Abraham Lincoln. He was our series winner for most of the series until FDR pipped him to the post towards the end there. He was born very poor on a farm. He did various jobs. He learnt very quickly. He learnt very early on that he did not like to hunt or kill animals. Aw, pacifist. Yeah, he much preferred reading a book. If you remember, he was told to go and kill a turkey and he really didn't like it. Blblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblblbl He got a job transporting goods up and down the Mississippi when he grew up a bit. He got all the way down to New Orleans, he was going right up and down the river he was. After a while of this, he settled down for a bit, he got a job in a general store where

he spent a lot of his time reading about politics. Then a small war with a local Native American tribe broke out and Lincoln joined up. And thanks to his quick wits and his ability to read, he was, much to his surprise, made a captain immediately. So he's a captain in the army. But he didn't see any fighting. This was a small-scale war and Lincoln didn't see any action and he was soon back to his normal life. Then he spent a while trying to get into politics, lawyering and starting up businesses. He was generally just trying to make his way in the world. Anyway, he then moves to Springfield. He sets up a small law firm with a partner after he

drags himself through learning law and passing the bar. He suffers a lot from depression. He struggles a lot in this time period. His work did not stimulate him and he became miserable. It's around this time that he meets his wife Mary that seems to cheer things up a bit for a while but not hugely. That sounds really mean. Cheer things up for a while but he's still suffering with depression. He was elected to the United States House of Representatives. He fights against the Mexican-American war that seems to be hotting up so he's trying to stop war breaking out, which led him to being called the next Benedict Arnold in the press. Ooh, the traitor Benedict Arnold.

The hero, Jamie, the hero. The misunderstood. Still need to do a special episode on him so everyone understands. What a guy. Everyone understands. What a guy he was. Anyway, he helped campaign for the Whig candidate, Taylor, to win his presidency, which Taylor does as we saw. Lincoln hoped for a cabinet post, but he didn't get one. Now this was all around the time where everything with the Fugitive Slave Act is going on and all that horribleness, and Lincoln hated all the legal ramifications and also the human aspect

of the Fugitive Slave Act. So he joins with the newly forming Republican Party, many of whom were anti-slavery. Remember, don't read that as not racist. They were not the same thing as each other, although they will certainly overlap. Gains a lot of recognition when debating Stephen Douglas around this time when he runs for Senate. He loses but he makes a name for himself. Because he makes a name for himself he is put forward to run for president and hooray he wins.

Just as the country is starting to fall apart thanks to Buchanan. So he becomes president and instantly the Civil War breaks out. A lot of it was because a Republican had become president. Now obviously I'm not going through the Civil War right now, there's no time, but lots of hard decisions were made during the Civil War and history tends to be very kind when judging Lincoln and the decisions he made. He generally did a good job. Obvious things, however, include the Emancipation Proclamation, which many people agreed was

just as fun to say as it was a good thing in real life. But also the 13th Amendment abolishing slavery in the country was being pushed through as well so that's also very good. Anyway, he was elected for a second term, served out the second term, retired and lived happily ever after and America entered its golden age and that's why it's the peaceful prosperous nation that it is today. That's what I remember yeah. That's what I remember. No Jamie that didn't happen he got shot in the head by a bunch of turkeys in a trench coat. Yeah he was assassinated and the country

just falls apart almost immediately. But that's nothing to do with Lincoln, so we don't need to discuss that right now. Lincoln's dead. We were impressed. For the same reasons that everyone else is impressed with Lincoln. I'll be honest, I went into this series kind of hoping that we'd get to Lincoln and I'd be able to go, oh, you think you know Lincoln? Well, what about this? What about this? Turns out he wasn't so good, was he? He was pretty good. He was pretty good. Almost all politicians were awful at this time and Lincoln just seemed like a nice guy. The slavery can had been firmly kicked down the road by literally everyone since the creation of the country. And Lincoln was the one who finally sorted it out. Out of necessity, it's

not like you ran on a platform saying I'm going to sort this out, but it fell in his lap and he didn't kick it down the road, he got it sorted. That is huge. So yeah, like I say, he seemed like a decent guy as well, which is always nice. The exceptional times and the fact he was assassinated rises his story to almost legendary status. To be at the top of your game, to be so well liked by so much of your country, to then be assassinated. It means he will forever be considered up there. One of the greats, yeah. One of the greats. But, and this is the important thing, even if he didn't get assassinated,

he still would have gone down in history as one of the best presidents because of the Civil War. And I'd argue, even if he took the Civil War out, everything we know about the guy, he probably would have made a pretty decent president in normal times. Considering everyone at this time was just in it for themselves or racist or both, he didn't come across that way. So he is often stated as being the best president of the United States. Unless he is beaten by this guy. Born to a moderately wealthy family, he gets an education, a couple of jobs, he signs up for the military and immediately is involved in a skirmish that starts the Seven Year War.

I mean it's a bit of a stretch, but the Seven Year War has sometimes been described as the first actual world war. You've got countries all over the world taking part in the Seven Year War, in a small scale compared to the actual world wars. And also it's stretching it a little bit, but this skirmish that sets it off that Washington was leading, you could argue that Washington started the First World War. It's a huge stretch, a huge stretch, but it is one of those weird things that Washington's obviously very well known for doing all the stuff that Washington does, but there's this little story right at the start of his life where he was hugely instrumental in the start of a war, which is just fascinating in itself. Anyway, he takes command and gets a lot of people killed. He was not good. Yeah, he married Martha and the two settled down in Mount

Vernon, which Washington had inherited. The whole independence thing kicks off. Washington then serves as a delegate to the First Continental Congress. Possibly because he turned up in uniform, he was given the job of being in charge of the troops. Which is hilarious. Did he make his own uniform? He really wanted it and kept like, or did we just joke that? Oh, maybe we joked that.

But yeah, because he does have a uniform. He was in the army. Yeah, but he kept hinting to, but I want the role, I want the role. Oh, but he's a bit more stoic than that. But the uniform spoke volumes. The fact that he was the only one who turned up in military dress,

and they were looking around the room going, well, who's gonna lead our troops? Well, it's either Jeff over there, or it's the guy in the military uniform. He knows how to start a war. Yes he does. So off he goes. And he goes off to fight the British.

Traitor. Traitor. The Traitor Washington. He goes off to fight the British. And just like with Lincoln, I'm not going through the Revolutionary War here but to cover it very very broadly he does an okay job. The Americans are the plucky underdogs and they realise that they just need to become too expensive to keep fighting and the British will eventually stop which is what they do. There is a reason why Washington is not howled up in America as one of the country's best generals, despite him winning the War of Independence that created their country.

You would have thought that was a given, wouldn't you? Well, surely he's the best general. No, he should be a shoo-in, but he's not, because Washington was fine. He was okay as a commander, but not exceptional. But arguably, that's more interesting. He made mistakes. He corrected. He did some things very well, he messed other things up. We get all the interesting stories of the United States forces clinging on until the French finally come and save the day, which the French

did. Hooray said America and the French boo said Britain. Washington then resigns from leading the military and returns to Mount Vernon. A lot of people thought, well that's it, Washington's going to take over now. He's just going to be the dictator or the king or whatever, but he's led the troops to get independence. He's now in charge. He doesn't. He resigns. It's insane. About five years after this, everyone realises the new country they'd created was awful, absolutely awful, and they need to do the actual sketch start again. So they all meet up and discuss how they're going to do it properly this time, and they decide that they should have a president in charge. Elected terms and all that

stuff that we covered. And who should be in charge? Well, obviously it's Washington. It was unanimous, there was no other discussion. It's going to be Washington. So he becomes the first president. What big things happen during his presidency? Not much, to be honest. No big events in his time in charge. Apart from the fact that the country is being formed. Everything is precedent. Everything is brand new. Everyone's finding their way through the murky waters of the new country. The Bill of Rights comes into effect, which is obviously big, but it's paperwork rather than exciting. Important paperwork.

The Whiskey Rebellion happens. That sounds big and exciting, doesn't it? But it wasn't. It was small. But it did lead to the only time a sitting president has led a military campaign in person. That's cool. Yeah. Albeit a very small one. But more important than all of this was him normalising everything. Everything gets up and running, and he does the biggest act that he does in all his presidency right at the end where he steps down after two terms. He easily would have got a third term, but he puts in this precedent that you should

only serve a limited amount of time and then pass the torch on to someone else. There should always be a peaceful transfer of power onto the next person. And that is hugely important. If Washington hadn't have done that, America would have been a very, very, very different country. Yes, whole history had been vastly different probably. Yeah, it probably would have had, I don't know, six, seven presidents since its formation. Lifelong appointments. Wow, like the erm, what do you want to call it? The lawyer, what are they called? Justice, Chief Justice, no?

Oh, the Supreme Court. Supreme Court, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, I did. Lifelong appointments are weird, they should not be a thing. Even in the UK, we have a similar thing. It's stupid. Yeah, yeah, life-long appointments. It's not good, is it?

But hey, go back in time and tell that to them whilst they're writing the Constitution. Oh I will, I will. There's a list, Jamie, there's a list. You know the Second Amendment thing, maybe? Let me show you what they've got now. Now you can decide that's a good idea. No it's three fifths thing yeah there's that there was a lot of problems but hey it was better than anyone else had worked out at the time and it was certainly something to be

celebrated and Washington steered it through so pretty Yeah. Pretty good. But is it as good as this guy? Thomas Jefferson! Born into a rich family, Jefferson is the first president to be born in the aristocracy class. So true on rich ruling class. He was taught Greek and Latin as a child, of course he was. He went to a fancy college in the capital of Virginia called William and Mary, which was the second oldest college in the country after Harvard. He went there at 16 with his personal slave who was called Jupiter. Oh yeah we're back in those times, Jeremy. Don't forget, Washington had lots of slaves as well, if we're going to criticise the slave owning. Yeah that's true. Washington also had slaves. But you didn't mention it. Anyway, I didn't mention it.

That's because he didn't turn up at college with a personal one. I don't know, there's something about that. Anyway, he does well at college. He learnt the violin and he graduated. He did all the stuff as well. He decided to become a lawyer, obviously, by becoming an apprentice. Remember, this is back in the days where you didn't go to law school, that didn't exist. You became a lawyer's apprentice and they

trained you up on the job and you passed the bar. So he does that. He starts getting into politics, he's doing well enough that he can buy Montagello, which is a nice little mansion place that he's got. Nice. Which is nice. Anyway, it was not long before, like most in the aristocracy class in Virginia, he found himself in lots of debt. Yeah. Because the aristocracy in America at the time were trying to live to the same standards as the aristocracy in Europe were, but there just wasn't as much money in the country. No. So they were able to borrow off Europe essentially, but they were in lots of debt. And because of this, the aristocracy in the colonies started to get quite annoyed

with the British, because they had to keep paying the British tax, which was dwindling their funds. And also they had to like pay back British banks or the money that they owed them and stuff. They weren't very happy with the British. It's your fault for my responsible spending. Anyway, all this leads to a lot of bitter resentment. It's a huge simplification. There were other reasons to be annoyed with the British at the time, obviously, but from

an aristocracy in Virginia point of view, this was the main one, the taxes and the fact that you owe the British money. So lots of bad feeling against the British and revolution comes along. The British say, oh no thank you colonies, we'll have less of that. So they invade and Jefferson goes to the convention where he is not wearing a military uniform. He is asked to draw up the Declaration of Independence. Yes, almost an afterthought, just a rubber stamp of a document. We've already declared independence. Washington's already headed off. But you there, you've got a quill in your hand. Yes, you. Write what we talked about a few

days ago down in words. Make it official, will you. So off you go, he spent over two weeks writing it up to get it right. He had to change it several times as it was a little bit strongly worded, I don't know how well you remember this, but the original one got quite bitter at times. And another thing. And had some quite personal attacks. Yeah, so he was asked to tone it down quite a bit, which it was, written through committee, but mostly by him. Anyway, Declaration of Independence is created. Then he was elected as governor of Virginia as the war carried on, and then turned south towards him.

He doesn't do a great job here. He was convinced that the militia would be able to hold back the British army. Remember, this was what everyone believed. This is why the second amendment is there. It's the idea that you need to have a militia who can fight against tyranny. That's what it's all about. And the idea was Britain, formal armies, tyrannous. Free people, militias, freedom. Yes, all those things. Jefferson was like, yeah, the militia will sort this out, we will all rise up. Turns out training is actually important. Turns out the militia were not great at holding

back the British army. Anyway, Jefferson left office very, very suddenly without waiting for his replacement, which led to some to accuse him of being a coward and running away from the British. Absolutely not. Yeah. Anyway, the United States, don't know if you heard this, won in the end. Well they say won, we've just sort of stopped. Oh yeah, the British realised that this was costing far too much money and as soon as France got involved went oh you know what, let's go and perform atrocities somewhere else shall we?

Yeah. Yeah, that's what the British did. Anyway, shortly after this, his wife Martha died, because apparently everyone's called Martha back then. This led Jefferson into depression. He really suffered after his wife died. So he heads off to Paris to deal with things politically. Just get away, get away from all the horribleness. When he gets to Paris, oh does he love the French? The French are the bee's knees, he decides. They are the place to be. He has a great time. He has a

great time in Paris. He has affairs, he writes racist books, he sleeps with his teenage slave. So let's call that what it is, rape. And then he stays in France up until the Revolution in France, which he was very happy about. The French were about to follow the United States with their own revolution that would be just as glorious. And so many heads. Well, he was soon called home, which was a mixed blessing, because he really wanted to be where the action was. But had he stayed, there's a very good chance he would have been caught up in just how awful the French Revolution was. Very messy revolution. Anyway, he gets home. He was absolutely horrified by what he saw.

In Paris, he saw the decadence of the ruling class, and he was relieved that it didn't happen back in the good old United States. Or the good new United States, I should say. But he gets back to New York, and what's this? It's just people copying Britain and France. This is more the same. So he gets on with his political work. He introduces the idea of decimalisation. Let's decimalise everything. That's what they're going to do in France. It makes sense, doesn't it? Look, I've got it all drawn up here. It worked with the currency, not immediately, but it worked with the currency, but apparently not in anything else.

The United States could have led the world in sensible units of measure. That's nice. One farthing to a book length I think is fine. 14 book lengths into a cattle rod. That's great. They just decided not to apparently, for reasons. Anyway, we then see the rise of the first two parties. Hamilton's Federalists, who

believed in a country of cities and finance and industry, started pitting themselves against Jefferson's Republican Party, later called the Democratic Republicans to avoid confusion over the fact that they just repeat names in America. Anyway, Democratic Republicans believed in farms, small businesses, small government. Then Washington retires. Many pushed for Jefferson to run, but it was John Adams who won instead. And with the rules that they were back then, Jefferson becomes the Vice President because he came second. Yeah, makes sense. Just hope you get on.

Yeah, this rule did not last very long at all. Anyway, he found, as most did, after him, that being the Vice President was a useless job for useless people. He did not enjoy it at all. So he didn't do much for a while. Then John Adams became President and Jefferson wins against Burr in a race so close that it went down to the House to decide. Once President, he was very upset to have to get into an argument with his beloved France over New Orleans, hinting that he would even, holding his nose, side with the British over this.

France had New Orleans at the time, and that meant all resources that were created in the Mississippi basin went through New Orleans to get out of the country. And if you've ever seen a map of the Mississippi basin, that's most of North America. So because of this, they realized something had to be done. And it actually worked out well because Napoleon, running out of cash, needed to get money quickly. So he decided to sell not just New Orleans but the entire of Louisiana to the United States for an absolute pittance. Overnight the US doubled in size. Hooray.

Then Tripoli, a nation state in the Mediterranean, declared war on the United States being the first country to do so. I can imagine most people going, where? Who? Well, no time to go into this now, so either go back and listen to it in the episode or listen to this one sentence. Due to the fact that Britain was no longer protecting the United States ships overseas, this caused tension in lots of major shipping areas, the Mediterranean being arguably one of, if not the biggest. And Tripoli as an ancient city-state got into a bit of beef with the United States ships there and yeah, anyway, it escalates and wars declared.

Small war, skirmish. People slapping each other with gloves on the bow of a boat kind of thing. Yodh Havoc. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, Hamilton is then killed by the sitting vice president. Spoiler for our Patreon Hamilton series. Yes, and then he runs off to start a new nation as the vice president, so that's fun. Anyway, that's Burr, not Jefferson. And then right at the end of his presidency, Jefferson crashes the

economy as he puts an embargo with the European powers due to disagreements in trading laws. It all gets very economical and not very interesting, but yeah, crashes the economy. Not good. Overall, we thought he was a decent president, but with ideas that were perhaps more ideological than practical, he was an important founding father, impressing the need for a type of democracy. More so than a lot of the founding fathers he wanted it to be right in principle. He wanted something ideologically pure to be in place and you kind of need that enthusiasm but it also needs to bend when it comes smack up against reality.

Which it did. There is lots to criticise about Jefferson and we certainly did. He was very racist, more racist than the product of his time argument allows. He was far more racist than his peers were. He had multiple affairs with other women throughout his life. And as I've already alluded to, the most notorious thing is his relationship Sally Hemmings, the teenage slave who he impregnated. There's been some disturbing bending over backwards to justify this in the history books, even to this day, but I mean it's just not good, is it? Rape is rape.

Yup. So, that's Jefferson ending on that line, we'll see if he gets through. And he's finally up against one more. Ron Ray-Rig. Okay, we finally go Modern for the last one. One of the biggest names in post-war presidential history, born poor to a poor family, he grew up loving sports and acting. He worked as a lifeguard by Rick River and he spent his summers drinking beer, swimming and hanging out impressing girls. I don't think I'd be more jealous of the president reading any biography than the chapter of his teenage years that I read in the biography.

It just sounded really nice. The weather was nice, there was a river, people drank, he would just listen to music and drank beer in the sunshine and tried to chat up girls. It's like, that sounds good. He went on to college, he got okay great, but he didn't know what to do with his life. He then got a lucky break and was given a job assisting a man on the radio who was reporting on sport. He soon was reporting himself, and more than once he made up the action on the field to make it more interesting to listen to. If the game was boring, he'd just make it more exciting, back in the days when no one could check.

Anyway, he went from strength to strength as a radio personality, until one day he decided to try his hand in Hollywood. And he got incredibly lucky. He auditioned with a studio, who happened to be expanding at the time, and decided, yeah, go on then, let's give him a shot. There's just, I suppose, one in a million chances everyone thinks will happen to them if they go to Hollywood. Well it did happen to him. And then Lightning struck twice because one of the leading critics of the day happened to be born in the same town as he was. So this gave Reagan a huge edge. His film career starts to take off. He meets his first wife. More films are made. The War then starts. He gets a job making propaganda and instructional films for the

servicemen and women of America. The War was an easy one for Reagan, but he resented every moment of it because his wages were slashed. He was making Hollywood star wages and now suddenly he was being paid by the government. He becomes quite bitter about this. Anyway, the war ends and he and his wife split up. He becomes more political and very anti-red. Red Scare starts coming up and Reagan hates the idea of these damn commies coming over and taking his money. He becomes the president of the Screen Actors Guild. It becomes more political. He meets and he marries Nancy and then his career goes off the rails. He's just not working anymore in Hollywood. But he gets a job on TV, which is where the money is nowadays.

The money starts flooding in again. He works for an energy company that has a side TV that's on the go. He finds doing the political work for the company more fun than the TV work, because he tore all the factories and stuff as part of his contract. People would see him because they saw him on TV, he was the face. But he actually enjoyed doing the political part. The political part was stop taxing. People need to stop taxing me. By this time he's very conservative, and the far-right faction of the GOP start to notice him. He campaigns for Nixon and then becomes the governor of California. He does an okay job as the governor of California if you like his policies. If you don't, he was awful, but he was effective either way.

He was criticized for his very heavy-handed approach with protesting students. Anyway, he then runs for president a couple of times. He failed the first time, but he gets in the second time as the far-right faction of the GOP are behind him and pushing, and they're in ascendancy at this time. So anyway, his presidency was not actually the most exciting. He very quickly just does away with loads of regulation, just like he said he would. He then gives the wealthy a massive tax cut, just like he said he would. He then gives the wealthy a massive tax cut, just like he said he would. Things look dodgy for a little while but then there's a boom in the economy that saves him

and he rides that wave of popularity for pretty much the rest of his term. It was a very good time to be rich. Most people, however, were not rich and suffered. But if you were rich, oh it's a good time in America, which is why there was a lot of films and stories and stuff that come out of America for the 80s about it being this really fun time. Not for most people. Anyway, he saw the start of the collapse of the Soviet Union and did some very dodgy illegal things in the Iran-Contra scandal. He was, of course, shot, if you remember, but he survived, which made his story more exciting and then he retires just before the economy just falls apart again thanks to his

stripping of all the regulations so that is Reagan yeah okay so those are the four we now need to debate them in the I've forgotten what the rants called rhymes with emancipation population I can't remember what you said. It's fine. I've got the sound file. I'll be able to put it in. Okay so here we are. We're going to decide between these four but before we do let me give you a few... no actually no. I think it's fairly clear that even though this is the round of death it's fairly clear that two aren't going through. Yes. I mean it's obvious. Yeah. So let's not beat around the bush. Let's just say that Jefferson and Reagan are out.

Yes. However, we do like to put these in order, so let's decide what order they're going in. Okay, Jefferson last. Yeah, I just never liked the guy. No. Never liked the guy. I didn't.

He seemed pretentious and racist and just nasty on a personal level. And yeah, he had some nice enlightened ideas about democracy for the time, but he doesn't make up for all the other crappy polls. No, he's too idealistic as well. Yeah. So yeah, Jefferson last. I'm happy with that, which means Reagan. Reagan slips up to third. Considering how much on a personal level I really dislike Ronald Reagan, Reagan slips up to third. Considering how much on a personal level I really dislike Ronald Reagan,

he has done remarkably well in this podcast, which I suppose just explained why he is so what I liked by so many other people, but yeah. So anyway, he's up into third. He just can't compete though, can he, with the likes of Lincoln and Washington? No. No, definitely not. Okay, here we go.

I don't know, I do not know, I don't know. I do not know. Genuinely don't know. I do. So, well, shall I give you some stats on the two? Yeah. And then if you're saying you've got an idea, you can let me know and I'll see if I go, oh I agree, or if I have a visceral response and then I'll argue with you. If you start vomiting, then we'll know. Yeah, exactly. So So Lincoln came second overall, Washington came fourth overall. There was only three points in it, which is very very close. Statesmanship, Lincoln gets 18, Washington gets 17. We say they're pretty much on par. Disgracegate, Lincoln only gets two, Washington six. So a little bit more on the disgrace gate. It's very hard not to get disgrace gate when you're owning people.

Silver screen, this is where Washington claws it back. We said that Washington's life was more interesting than Lincoln's. Washington got 19, Lincoln got 15. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. Canvas ability, Lincoln's portrait is Bedham and Washington's, three points to four. And then we're splitting hairs in the bonus rounds, terms one for Lincoln, two for Washington, assassination two for Lincoln, none for Washington. And they both won in a landslide. So they scored two points each there. So there's a reason why they've got a close score and they're both right there at the top. Even when you break down their scores, there's a reason why they've got a close score and they're both right there at the top. Even when you break down their scores there's not much difference between them.

Arguably Washington is more interesting but has more disgrace gate. Yes. Yeah. So my gut feeling is Lincoln comes across as a nicer person. And I think, you know, although you could argue Washington with support created the country, Lincoln saved it. And he saved a whole group of people as well with the Emancipation Proclamation. So you're saying Lincoln should be first. Interestingly, Jamie, we do not need to debate

the round of death. Oh, interesting. We are perfectly in lockstep as soon as you say it, because I did not know which way you were going to go. And I genuinely wasn't too sure at the start of recording this episode, because I purposely try not to think about it too much, but just going through that recap there, it's like, it's got to be Lincoln, hasn't it? He's got more personality. Yes.

Washington was very stoic, and he did, he created a country and there's stepping down and there was lots of interesting things in his life. But Lincoln's little stories that he tells and the fact that he finally, finally was the one who got rid of the slavery problem. I mean obviously we still to this day see the ramifications of slavery in the United States. But that's huge. It is. Yeah, I can't drag it out. I don't think we need to.

I think it's Lincoln. I prefer him to Washington. That's the thing. Yeah, me too. If I had to choose a... If I had to vote for a president to run the country right now, it would definitely be Lincoln over Washington. Oh absolutely, yeah.

He just comes across as a nicer guy, someone who actually cares. And also felt slightly sorry for him, he's suffered depression his whole life. Yeah. And that's not fun. No. It's not. Bless him. So, okay, well there we go then, we've done it.

It's Lincoln. Lincoln goes through and three very big names are out. So well done Abraham Lincoln, you are through to the semi-final but we don't know who you're up against yet. So we've got a mix of two, it'll either be Hayes, Jackson, JFK or Madison. You see that next round is arguably as up in the air as this one. Possibly. Just with fewer big names. Yeah. Yeah. Well I've got my prediction for that round as well. You've got your predictions. I don't. So far my prediction has been right. We're talking about it next time. We don't need to talk about it now do we? Right okay well that is the next round then.

We've got our results for today. It is Abraham Lincoln. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for downloading us where you do download us from and supporting us. If you'd like to be part of our Patreon, you are more than welcome. You get access to extra things. It could be Roman stuff. It could be American stuff.

It's a whole bunch of Roman stuff on there. And also several episodes on Hamilton and whiskey episodes and a couple of fun quiz episodes. Yeah. Yeah, it's just some nice bits. Yeah. Bits and bobs.

Fun bits and bobs. Most importantly though, it means I can keep doing this podcast, which is very handy. Right, okay. Thank you very much, and until next time. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hello, my name is Winston Featheringway. And I'm Cuthbert Manbaden and this is the basketball. Yes, so here we are in America and we're looking out on a very small court with a lovely wooden floor. It looks like rosewood, perhaps mahogany.

Yes, it's really polished up to quite a sheen. It looks very nice. And very slippy. Yes, very slippy. And we're inside, inside this time, which is quite nice. If you have tuned in for the base of the ball, apparently they went in a different direction with the commentators. Which is most unfortunate. I think a nice British perspective would have been wonderful. I was enjoying it. I enjoyed the base of the ball, but it's the basketball this time, which I've heard good things. Yes, and as we're out looking onto the arena as I believe it's called a very shiny surface as we've mentioned earlier only at either end of the pitch there are two long poles with two baskets hanging off the end. Yes very nice just nice wicker baskets

on a pole so we'll see how this goes. So looking at the teams here, it's 2 on 2 apparently, 2 on 2. We have Abraham Lincoln and George Washington siding up against Thomas Jefferson and Ronald Reagan. And I believe Lincoln and Washington do have the height advantage. They are both incredibly mountainous specimens. Yes, I can't see how they're not going to win this to be honest. It says here it's the first to six points wins so we'll see first six points and here they come they're coming out they seem to be wearing what looks like vests and very brightly coloured link in Washington good god Winston good god they're in their underwear oh my gosh they are oh dear there's it's nothing but very very short shorts and under vests so good job this is audio ladies, that's all I'm saying.

Yes, I'm getting quite a flutter. Yes, anyway, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington in a dashing gray. Tofton Jefferson and Ronald Reagan are wearing a slightly darker shade of gray. So we'll see how they go. Ah, you can see on the back they have numbers so it's easier to differentiate the players. That's very clever, isn't it, Cuthbert? Very clever, I do enjoy it.

And here comes, oh there's a man wearing stripy top just like in the base of the ball. Oh yes. Yes, I'm assuming that's the referee. Yes, he's got a whistle and oh and they're off, they're off and they are going. Lincoln passes to Washington. Washington is running... Oh, he gets past Jefferson. A nice little nifty dive. Lots of bouncing of this basketball. Yes, let me just take the instruction manual of that. Bouncing, bouncing... Ah, I believe it's called dribbling, which is quite frankly disgusting.

Oh dear. Well, I won't be calling it that, I should call it bouncing. So, um, so, oh, watching back to Lincoln, more bouncing of the ball, very impressive. You know what, this is, it is just, it's netball, isn't it? It's essentially netball, um. I didn't want to say it at the start in case I sounded stupid, but this is netball, that's what we're bouncing. And, oh, uh, Jeff has just grabbed the ball and he's running with it. He's running with the ball. I don't think that's allowed Cuthbert. No, it's certainly not in in netball, that's for sure. But apparently the referee's fine with it, so it's okay. Oh and Washington gets it. Oh and he throws it and oh it's in the basket. In the basket. So that's 1.2 Lincoln and Washington. Quite a distance there. Threw it from half half the pitch there very impressive. That's quite impressive

And now we're taking a small t-break as the referee is getting on a stepladder to retrieve the ball out of the basket wonderful and there we go ball is out the basket and They're off again. They're off again straight to Lincoln They're off again, straight to Lincoln, Lincoln to Washington, Washington battling, Lincoln throws it and in the basket again, that's two points, two points, oh no, apparently it's over, not sure why. I thought it was first to six, but no, apparently that's it, apparently they scored six points. Oh splendid, and I've noticed that after Lincoln threw that ball it broke through the bottom of the basket which seems to make the game slightly faster for next time.

Oh how wonderful. Well it was quick. Yes. It was a quick sport isn't it? Quick and action packed. Yes I quite enjoyed the squeaky shoes on the floor. Yes I did enjoy the squeaky shoes. Right well apparently according to this to see who is the overall winner Lincoln and Washington

are now going to take in turns to shoot, shoot towards the basket. Yeah. Throw, throw the ball towards the basket. They're having a toss-off. A toss-off, I believe, is what it's called. So, they're going to toss their balls, and we're going to see who wins. So first up is Lincoln. They're both very tall men, very tall men.

Yeah. I think Billy and Washington just have this slight height advantage and slightly longer fingers. Not if you can't Lincoln's hat. Oh that's true, that does give him an extra two feet. Yes, okay so Lincoln hush in the stadium. And oh it's in, it's in, it's in and it goes straight down! That really does help. No one had to get the step ladder. Splendid. Wonderful. Excellent. Lincoln celebrating that knee sliding. Very polished floor there. No friction at all. No friction at all for him.

Excellent. You've slipped halfway down the arena there. He's still going. Well, Washington's looking furious with this. Washington stands up. Very stoic. Moving towards that line on the pitch. Yes I don't know it looks what two meters? Could be I don't know. Let's call it the two meter line. Standing at the two meter line and oh it's in. Yes. Oh it's very close. Very close. Okay, so back to Lincoln. Oh, Lincoln seems to be... He's removing his top hat. He's placing it on the floor.

He's standing on top of his top hat! I believe that will give him a height advantage. Is this against the rules? I don't think... Winston, check the rules. Is this against the rules? Hat, hat, hat. No, nothing in hat. Standing, no, no, nothing in standing. Well, the referee's got the rulebook out as well, and he no nothing in hat. Standing, no, no nothing in standing.

The referee's got the rulebook out as well and he can't find anything. I believe this is legal. Let's go for it. Washington is absolutely furious. He's actually shouting at Lincoln. So Lincoln's lining up, he's getting his aim, he's raising the ball, in there.

Oh and it's in. It's in. I mean, it was almost a sure thing. Almost a sure thing. You could almost lean over him, just place it in. Very impressive. Okay, well, if Washington loses this, he is out. There's a lot of pressure. Yes, well, Washington is now speaking to Lincoln. I believe he's asking if he can borrow his hat.

Lincoln says no. Oh dear. Oh dear. Well, I mean, Washington has his own hat, but that hat certainly doesn't have the same height. Better width. If they were in some kind of sport that required width, Winston, he'd be doing well. But unfortunately, this is all a game about height. Lincoln has that height. Washington believes in girth rather than length. Yes. Well, he is standing on his hat,. It's not given him much of an advantage. No, but it is triangular. He's sort of wobbling all over the place.

I don't think this is a good show. Hush descends. Oh! It's hit the rim Winston! Hit the rim! It hit the very edge of the basket. It has flown into the crowd. The crowd are going wild. Oh, Lincoln has... Lincoln's running around. He's hugging everyone. He is hugging everyone.

He's slapping their hands high in the air. Drinks on me, he's saying. Drinks on me. Let's all meet up at the theatre later, he's saying. Oh, splendid. I should do like an after show. Should be splendid. Does love an after show, does Lincoln. Right, well, there you they go Lincoln is our winner today I've thoroughly enjoyed the basketball. That's a good sport

If you've enjoyed this at home join us next week where we will be looking at more basketball Yeah, hopefully we stick with this one. I think yes this one this one's crazy. I think we've done a good job We've got the rule book. We've used the correct terminology. We should be fine Excellent. Well in that case this this has been the BBC with the American Sport. I have been Cuthbert and I'm Baffin. And I've been Winston Featheringway. Good evening. Good evening.