American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Knockouts: Group D

Episode Date: August 3, 2024

The final group and only one can go through! Who will it be? Lollipop Hayes, Mad Mad Jackson, Poor Rich JFK, or Father Madison? Find out!  We also look at Canvasibility: who has the best portrait? ��

Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, Group D. Hello and welcome to the Ranking Presidents of Totalus Rankium, I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington up until Biden and this is the group stage, it's group D, the final of the groups. We're going to see finally who was in the semi-finals after this episode. Very exciting. And who do we have Jamie today? Well, we've got Hayes, the lollipop. We've got Jackson the racist

we've got JFK the adulterer and Madison Well, I think I know which one you don't mind seeing go out. I Don't remember much about it was a long time ago. We start the series a long time ago to be fair But it's okay. This is why we're having this recap episode so you can decide so we'll see we'll see what you think at the end yeah again I'm just not too sure about this one I'm as I got my prediction I know you said this last time so you clearly have it in your mind who you think is going to go through but I don't I genuinely don't know who's who I'm gonna

pick at the end of this I I think it's a three-way split in my head at the moment So but as ever Jamie, this is this is not Neither the time or the place to talk about this not just yet Because we're going to go through our rounds first and we are now on to our fourth round canvas ability Yeah So a very subjective round which is why it was never weighted as highly as the others. The round is simply how much do we like their portrait? How sexy are they in paint? Yeah exactly it might be how well was it painted, it might be how good we just

think they look as a president. It's very very subjective. Anyway, as ever, we're gonna start with the bottom five. Which five presidents do did we think had awful portraits? Either they didn't look good themselves or the painting didn't do them justice. Let's go through shall we? Have you got a prediction? I remember one just just standing in brown or something. Was it Bush? George W? Was he on that one? Well, he's not in our bottom, so if he was... No, I don't think he was just standing in brown. Let's see. Our bottom five... It's not really five. It's actually seven because

we have ties yet again. We have got, in joint fourth place at the moment we have got four different people. We've got Andrew Johnson, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Bill Clinton. Then we have our top three who we definitely already have. We don't need to decide between those because they have different scores. Because those four I just read scored 1.50. Then we've got Warren Harding coming in at 1.25. Now this is an audio podcast, Jamie, so this is not the best format to do this. Probably not. However, I'm gonna show the pictures with you just to so you can recap. If you are listening, if you Google official president portraits and click on the presidential portraits

link on the website White House Historical Association, it's got all of the portraits on there and it's where I've been getting all the official ones from. So that was google presidential portraits and go to the White House website. You'll find them all there. But for you Jamie, I'm going to start sending them across. So this here is Warren Harding and we said he has got the third worst Portrait there you go. There's Harding. It's a bit weak. It looks a bit like Herman Munster Does I mean it's is this the one you were talking about? He's just standing in Brown Maybe I don't even remember this one. So isn't obviously maybe it's just so forgettable It's a bit of like abstract foliage in the background of random white tower possibly the capital. Yeah

It's not inspiring is it and he doesn't look like a president. He looks like a schoolmaster Butler or a butler. Yeah, so we weren't impressed with him Our second worst was William H Harrison poor Harrison. He did not last very long And this was his portrait. Yeah, he's very dark. Not really distinctive other than his face and a weird hairdo. He's got a weird hairdo. It's not a comb over, it's a comb forward. Yeah. Yeah. And he's got a haunted look in his eyes as if he knows that speech he just gave is about to kill him off because he's now wet and cold.

Yeah. But our very worst portrait, and I stick by this one, our very worst portrait according to us with a score of only 0.5 is James Buchanan. Oh, oh, oh wow. Yes, he's just so bad, isn't he? So washed out, so washed out, and he's just... It's hard to describe why it's so bad, it just isn't it? So washed out. So washed out and he's just... it's hard to describe why it's so bad. It just isn't good. It looks cartoony. I think it is not real. It looks like a Pixar film. Yeah. And it's a floating head with the shirt.

It doesn't help that... yeah, it doesn't help that the dark tones have obviously deepened so it's now just a floating head, a washed out floating head and it's also in this like it's got this circular oval border going on which does not do it any favors whatsoever. So there you go, they are our worst three so if you're scrambling looking these up that was Warren Harding in third, Harrison in second and James Buchanan is our very worst. But now we need to decide who comes fifth and fourth, and we've got four people to choose from. So you all scored the same. This is Andrew Johnson, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, and Bill

Clinton. I'm going to throw these four over to you in that order. You can have a look and have a think, but because I knew this was going to be tricky, I actually asked Twitter, our listeners on there, I did a poll to ask which one's the worst. So we can use their decision to help us out here. So this is Andrew Johnson coming over to you now, looking quite severe again. Cartoony. Bit like a floating head. Then we've got Calvin Coolidge.

It looks like he's on a green screen or something in the background. Bit of a halo around him. Yeah, and oh, those bags under his eyes don't make him look good, do they? He looks like an ill man in this. Then we've got Hoover. I was really hoping you'd just send a picture of a vacuum cleaner over to me, but that's fine. That would've been hilarious. This isn't that bad. It's boring. It's dull with a brown background, but...

The painting's okay, the pose is okay. Um, I know it's very subjective and this might come across as really mean but... I just don't like his face. He's got a slightly annoying look about him. I don't know why. Maybe if he just told me an amusing story I'd think, huh, what a cheery old fellow he is. But... Did you ever talk about the globe? story I'd think huh what a cheery old old feller he is but

Did you ever talk about the globe? Because I can't tell what part of the world that is. That's the coast of North and South America going down there. It doesn't look like that. So go to the top of the globe you see where the sea meets the land at the top. Yeah. That's in Canada and then trace it down and it goes past California and then it's Central America and then it's going right at the bottom right hand corner. I think what's confusing you is that there's a big white bit in the sea. Yeah that's what's

confusing me. Yeah I don't know why that's there. Well poor painting let's call it poor painting. Maybe this is why we marked him down. And then finally we've got Bill Clinton. Now I personally have said before that in this day and age of photography having photorealistic paintings just does nothing for me and yet this is an argument for them because this is in no way photorealistic. This is quite heavily styled as a painting and yet something about it I just don't like. It's uh... He's certainly where his hand is, yeah. Oh yeah, I mean you've got to be careful styled as a painting and yeah something about it I just don't like it's you certainly where his hand is do you? oh yeah I mean you've got to be careful with Bill

so those are the four we're looking for your two least favorite out of those and then we need to put them in order well Johnson is my absolute least favorite of those four really Johnson was your least favorite so you're putting Johnson in fourth place overall because we've already got our top three Yes, and then what else? I think hoovers just looks really boring and I can't get over the dodgy world map. Yeah Well, I really dislike hoovers. So if you're happy to go for who let's go for that

So for our fourth no our top five worst portraits We have fifth place Herbert Hoover fourth place Andrew Johnson third place Warren Harding second place William Harrison and the worst portrait goes to James Buchanan yeah yeah do you want to hear what the public thought yeah gone so this is our listeners slash followers on on Twitter apparently according to them I only asked those four that we needed to judge out of those final four. Apparently they said Calvin Coolidge

had the worst portrait of them. Oh, okay. Maybe it was the bags, followed by Hoover, followed by Johnson, followed by Bill. So we went in a slight different direction, but that's fine, Jamie. Yeah. Our podcast.

Yeah. So there we go, that's our worst portraits, but what about the good ones? What about the portraits that you would hang up in your house proudly and say, yes, I'm a fan of American presidential art. Well, coincidentally, we're in the exact same place. We have our top three. We don't need to discuss them. And then we've got four tied again. Interesting. So yeah, bizarrely, we have to do exactly the same as we did before. You know what? Just keep the suspense

I'm not gonna reveal the top three this time until we've decided the others So in joint fourth place, we have Zachary Taylor Millard Fillmore Abraham Lincoln and Dwight Eisenhower Okay. So again, I will send those through to you in order. I just read them out So again I will send those through to you in order I just read them out. Let's see what you think of them. So first of all here is Taylor. I remember doing Taylor.

That was a good episode, I enjoyed that one. Oh yeah I mean the uniform. Again a bit like Herman Munster. Maybe everyone looked like Herman Munster in those days. I think that must be the case yeah. I mean he's there, he's in Mexico standing atop a field of battle he's got his sword clutching a sword he's in his military uniform. It's quite a dignified strong look I think. It is isn't it I mean it's just pretty good. Right okay next up is Fillable. Now I have a feeling we went

for this one because it was amusing us slightly It's just such a jaunt he stands he's got there is it's got one hand on his hip he's pointing at a document He's yeah, it's it's ah it's not strong is it no? I'm not entirely sure why he's got this high to be honest And it seems like someone's taken half the varnish off because on one side this guy's like bluey grey then it suddenly hard cuts to like a pink. Yeah it's a bizarre painting I'm not entirely sure why we scored it that high. Maybe it was the early days. How are we? No it's mid-days. Who knows but anyway he's scored exactly the same apparently. Next up we have a classic Abraham Lincoln.

Thinking in his chair. That is a good look. Lovely, rich leather chair. Brass, well, could be mahogany ornamentation. Head on, chin in hand, finger in the air. He's thinking, he's about to get out of the chair or he's just got in whilst thinking, who knows. There's a sort of action stance to it.

Yeah, I quite like that. Yeah, I like it too. And then finally Dwight Eisenhower. I like the way he's sort of sitting face like, the chair's facing the other way, he's turned 90 degrees and he's staring, holding his glasses in his hands. As if you've just said something really interesting and he's whipped around from eating his lunch. Yeah, and now you feel really intimate, like oh, I didn't mean it. He's just like that's a really... He's whipped his glasses off and he's turned to look at you. It's like that was a salient point you've just made, he said. That's like, oh thank you Dwight. Kindly teacher. I mean he's looking

directly at you. Piercing your eyes. Yeah it's not off to one side. I mean I can see why three of these we ranked as highly as we did. Straight away I think we can get rid of Philmore's. I don't know what it's not off to one side. I mean I can see why three of these we ranked as highly as we did. I straight away I think we can get rid of Fillmore's. I don't know what it's doing here. We were obviously having an off day that day. But the others are good. We need to decide on two and to decide what order they go in. My gut feeling is Taylor and Lincoln. Taylor's beating Lincoln. You're saying Taylor's beating Lincoln. Look at him! Is it the sword? He's standing on a field of death with a sword in his hand and in uniform. Taylor and Lincoln. Taylor's beating Lincoln. You're saying Taylor's beating Lincoln isn't the sword. He's standing on a field of death with a sword in his hand and in uniform. Feels

great. Yeah it's pretty good isn't it. The Lincoln ones are also very good. It is good. You know what? I'd put them on par with each other. You've made a call so let's go with your call. So we're saying 5th place is Lincoln's portrait. Taylor's comes in fourth. Just compare that to the public. They disagree with us. 46% went for Lincoln and second was 25% Dwight Eisenhower. Zachary Taylor only got 20% of film or 9% of people thought that was the best portrait out of those four. Which just goes to show there's no account for taste. All subjective isn't it? Anyway so like I say we've got Lincoln 5th, Taylor 4th,

who's in the 3rd? Well here you go I'll send him over. It's none other than Teddy Roosevelt. This is all the phase where all the backgrounds are sort of like a wash of generic stuff. Yeah, maybe it influenced me slightly but I really like the story behind this one. It's one of the few ones where I actually came across the story behind the portrait. This was not meant to be the portrait but the guy hired to do the painting was badgering him to do the portrait and Roosevelt was annoyed and twirled round when he was standing on the stairs to go seriously stop badgering me and Grabbed hold of the manister and the guy doing the portrait was like yes stop stop. That's it. That's perfect

That's how I want to paint me I'll admit all of that was a half memory from whenever we did his episode So if I've got some of the details there slightly wrong, then I apologize go back to listen to the episode I'm fairly sure I talked about it then but yeah this is yeah it's good it's good strong pose hand on hip looking at you and yeah I like it second might surprise many but I don't think it surprises us it's Chester Arthur Oh absolutely yes. Deserves to be second. Deserves to be second. I mean just look at those mud and chops. Oh they're brilliant. That just blends seamlessly into his luxurious moustache. Yeah. He's wearing what can only be described as a posh man's dressing gown.

Yeah. Unless you know what it's called. And he's just, it would appear in ancient Rome. That's just where he lives now. Yeah, just hand draped over what looks like a sarcophagus with a lovely icon kick column behind him. I will take your word for that. A lot of the paintings go in for Roman imagery. This one's not Roman imagery. This is just an image of Rome. He might as well be an ancient Rome there. So yeah, I mean, just like it. Good facial hair. He was useless at everything else, but he wins for just having a good portrait. Or does he? Because he doesn't actually win, because this one wins. You mentioned a portrait with just a plain brown background, and this one has a plain brown background but it's also our highest scorer he got full marks in this round is it a barber? The only president to do so

no no he got really low I really didn't like it remember he was the one with the white background you thought it was okay I hated it yeah Washington it's come on oh my goodness yeah okay yeah I see why we chose this I'm guessing you had completely forgotten about this portrait by your reaction there. But now looking at it going, oh yeah, so we haven't said it's JFK. Oh yes, of course, we're an audio podcast. It is JFK, it's a very famous painting. It's the only time when I did all of my artwork for this series with all the low poly men that I made, for this series with all the like low poly men that I made. It was the only time I modeled the stance on the portrait so in our artwork he looks like this as well which I quite like.

It was painted after he'd been assassinated so it was a case of well he's dead now he's a bit sad about it. It's him stood brown background in a brown grey suit just looking down with his arms crossed he's not facing the camera it's a very unusual painting it is very of a world leader well he looks diminished he looks defeated he looks he looks upset yeah it's not the projection of power that usually these paintings try to display. Because of that, it's really interesting. And it's just also very well painted. This is the opposite of the Bill Clinton one in terms of this does not look like a photo,

but it looks good. It looks stylistic and it's well painted. Got a slight wash to it as well. Yeah. It is hands down my favourite of all the portraits. I can see why. It's the only piece of artwork out of all of them that I would actually consider having up as a piece of artwork. All the rest are interesting historical paintings. This one is actually a good piece of art in my opinion.

So it wins. JFK has our best presidential portrait. Interesting. So there you go, that's canvas ability. They didn't score much for that obviously because it was just a small little bonus round really. But it's nice to know who's got the best portrait and who's got the worst. It's JFK and Buchanan. But we're now off to the group stage and we're going to decide who is going to face Lincoln in the semi-finals. Poor guy. Group D.

Okay we have four presidents going up against each other. First of all we have Rutherford B Hayes, a Republican who scored 19.75. That's really low. Well yeah it is low. It puts him in 15th place overall. Interesting. One of our lowest American scorers. Yeah I know he is. Only Johnson was, Lyndon B was lower but in 16th place. Yeah yeah. But then he's up against Andrew Jackson, the first Democrat, with a score of 12.5. Putting him 30 second overall. He is our lowest scoring American winner. No one scores lower than him and still gets through to the stage. Then he is up against the guy with the good portrait is John F. Kennedy, another Democrat with a score of 30. And that puts him 10th overall. Not bad.

Yeah. And then finally, James Madison, a Democratic Republican with a score of 32.25, making him the highest scorer in this round, putting him 8th overall. Interesting. This is the lowest scoring of all the groups so far. On paper, Madison is the one to beat. But this is why we do it this way and we don't go on total score because we'll see if Madison's the one to win. Okay, first up. Brother for the fee up Hayes Hayes Jamie Born to a poor family a very sickly child one neighbor saying the boy should die

Because it would be an act of mercy No, one of his earliest memories is probably when his parents trying to kill him No more depressing than that is probably when his... His parents trying to kill him. No, more depressing than that. It's when he was three, so it's debatable whether he would remember this, but it's quite traumatic, so maybe he did. His elder brother Lorenzo fell through an iced over lake and ended up drowning. Yeah, so that's not good. However, two brothers called Rutherford and Lorenzo is brilliant. Yeah. Yes, it is. Anyway, he went to a very strict school, which he hated

He went to a couple more schools. He was a model student apparently no stories whatsoever, which we found disappointing Apart from the fact that at college he started a friendship group a formal friendship group people could join and be friends Yeah, there was they had a motto and it was called Friendship for Life. Oh, oh. They made BFF banners and everything. Oh, it's like eating a teaspoon of treacle already. It is, it's ridiculous. Anyway, he graduated, he did very well at school.

He spoke at the graduation about how good the school was because he was a model student. The plan was to become a lawyer. And we're right at the start of the idea that lawyers should actually go to places like Harvard and learn the law and not just get apprenticeships. So that's what he does. He had a splendid time at Harvard, apparently. Saying that it was just as good as his last school because he really, he just really enjoyed school. It was a good time. Anyway, he graduated, he passed the bar, he went off to open a law firm in Cincinnati. Starts very slow, but eventually he was working

on murder cases and was making a name for himself. He was also very popular with the ladies at this point. Don't know how well you remember but Hayes in his youth was quite a looker. Hmm. How well do you remember this? Didn't he look like, oh, the actor Hayes in Greenwing? Google, Google young Hayes. Somebody's got a beard when he's older. Yeah, he's not got the beard at this point. Oh, oh wow, yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's a darker circular portrait. It is quite, quite the image. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's a dark circular portrait. It's quite quite the image. Yeah, okay Yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's that's the one that's the bomb Yeah, so he was quite the looker and also just relentlessly Cheerful and optimistic all the time. So he he was very popular with the ladies

So popular that he made up a fiancé just to stop women trying to court him. It's like no, it's too much attention. Yeah. Eventually however, he does decide it's time to settle down and I will quote him here from his diary. Uppermost in the medley of ideas that are rolling around under my hair is before the year rolls around I'll get myself a wifey or at least a sweetheart if I can find one who agrees with me that I am one of the most sunniest fellows in the world. I think everyone could agree that he is the sunniest fellow in the world. He certainly is. Wifey? A wifey. Do you think from the death from the death of Lorenzo he experienced that from that point I'm never going to be sad ever again it was so traumatic I must be happy. Maybe maybe he used up

all his sadness right at the start maybe that's what it is. Anyway yeah he meets some weds Lucy and they have the first of eight children in total. With a family and a career he then decides to get into politics the wigs were collapsing collapsing and the Republicans were starting up. So Hayes joins up to this new party and starts organising. He enters politics, becoming the city solicitor for Cincinnati. But civil war is looming and Hayes was happy with the idea of the South leaving. Hayes absolutely despised slavery and thought that the United States was better off without the Southern States. However, war then breaks out so Hayes joins up to fight. He becomes a major almost immediately due to the fact that he knew people through going

to Harvard and the like. After seeing a bit of action he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel. He was grazed with a bullet in one battle. He was then promoted to Full Colonel. Then he was in a battle where he was shot in the shoulder. He fell to the ground and spent the rest of that battle chatting to another injured soldier who happened to be a Confederate soldier as the bullets whizzed overhead. Pleasant day! Again quote his diary here. I gave him messages for my wife and friends in case I should not get up.

We were right jolly and friendly. It was by no means an unpleasant experience. Lovely weather today. Oh yes, lovely and clear. Yep. Anyway, eventually he was rescued by his men and taken to a farmhouse where he was tucked up in bed and I quote, as snug as a bug in a rug. The war continued. To his absolute delight, the Emancipation Proclamation happened. But then some actual bad news. He found out that his newly born son had died.

I will quote again, the visit's been a happy one. Saddened, though it is, by the death of our beautiful little Joseph. Relentless optimism. It's almost like a P at the end. PS child dead. The war continued. In one battle his horse was shot under him so he's seeing more battles getting close to being killed. I mean I ended up skimming over this in the actual episode so this is a ridiculous skimming over here. But lots of battles happen and the war ends and Hayes goes off to get a new job, a member of the House of the Representatives. So he works as a politician for a while, but then another son dies. That's all very sad or I don't know, not.

And then he moved back home and he decides to run for governor. This time being the governor of Ohio was however largely ceremonial, it's not like he had real power. Hayes performs his duties, starts campaigning for Grant to become the next president, and then in 1780 steps down and retires from politics. No more shall I be a politician, he says. But soon afterwards pressure is put on him by the party to be a senator. They realized that he would be a good high-up member of the Republicans. So he manages to talk himself out of it, but a few years later he gives into the pressure, returns to politics, becomes the governor for an unprecedented third turn, and this automatically gets his name up into the national stage. People start talking about him running for

president. It's a very convoluted convention, but Hayes comes through as a dark horse nominee. And then the election was incredibly close. Like, this is, in US history, the closest and most controversial election apart from the 2000 one. It's up there with it. Both Hayes and Tilden had just under the votes to win the Electoral College votes that they needed, and three states were too close to call and they were being disputed. All three states then called for haze, but the Democrats cried foul because all three states were run by Republicans. A commission was set up and in the end it was decided that five members of the Senate, five of the House and five Supreme Court judges would decide. Democrats tried to tip things in their favour by giving one of the justices a Senate seat, which he

wanted, but this backfired when that man stood down from being on the Supreme Court, which meant someone else had to be found and there were only Republicans left. So in the end, Hayes becomes President, but it's all a bit dodgy, backroom deals being made rather than a clear election. But I will say just like I did in the 2001, the election was too close to call. It's not like one side obviously stole it from the other. Both sides were trying to get it. Either side could have got it and either side could have called the other one a cheat, justifiably. So it was a close election. Anyway, he has becomes the president. That's mainly what he's known for nowadays is for this election being a bit dodgy. The fact

that he is an absolute lollipop of a person apparently has escaped national consciousness. And his presidency also not much to write home about because not a huge amount happens. He oversees the withdrawal of troops from the South. Some claim he did that too soon. Some people claim that it had to be done. You can't militarize the South forever after the Civil War. However, the growing pressure of the Robert Barons meant that his attempts to get rid of all the corruption in the country mostly fails. This was a time of lots of strikes and Hayes did little to help the situation to be fair, but he didn't really make it worse. He was a mediocre president. We mostly liked him because his personality was so good.

We got his diaries which were just full of amazing little gems. He was just a really fun president to talk about and he became arguably the biggest hidden gem in the whole series. Absolutely, yeah. He just sounded lovely. Yeah, that's Hayes. I mean, yeah, he sounds lovely. It was just nice after a lot of awful people to come across like a really nice guy. And I remember saying something along the lines of if I've missed anything, get in touch. No one ever did. So I don't think anyone ever found any dirt on the guy. But is being a nice guy enough to get into the semi-finals, Jamie? Something that this next person will be hoping is not the case. So Andrew Jackson, Democrat, a total of 12.5, our worst scoring as I said earlier. Statesmanship he only got four because he did a really bad job. Disgrace Gate, he gets the full 20.

Well, of course. Silver Screen, he got a full 20. But obviously that Disgrace Gate wipes that out. Yeah. So, yeah. A lot of points are being handed out, negative and positive. It kind of sums him up. 3.5 cam visibility.

It's two terms. Someone tried to kill him so we got a point there. One landslide. So let's go through his life and then we can decide. He was born to a mother who was recently widowed. Jackson had a very tough start to life. He had two older brothers and they and their mother lived in a small farm. They were very poor. When he was 10 the War of Independence broke out and the British started tearing through the region. Soon after this his elder brother was killed in the fighting so a furious Jackson and his other brother signed up

to fight. Now, Jackson's only 13 at this point so he doesn't get to fight but he becomes a courier so he's passing messages along and while he does this he gets into an argument with a British officer who follows him home and storms into the house. The officer then hits Jackson with his sword which left a scar on his head for the rest of his life. He was then thrown in prison alongside his brother. This was a dark, dank prison where survival rate was low, disease was rife. Over the months they were detained, their house deteriorated rapidly, especially his brothers. Eventually he was released, but the brothers realised they had smallpox. Smallpox, as covered in our Roman

series, is nasty nasty nasty stuff. Yet they caught it in the prison. His brother died almost immediately after getting home. While Jackson spent months in bed recovering, his mother, who was a remarkable woman, traveled the country tracking down other family members and doing whatever she needed to do to get them freed from where they were being held. Because, yeah, they had some cousins who had been imprisoned as well. Now, this involved volunteering to work on a prison ship which was rife with cholera just so she could try and see whether they were on the ship or not. What she did get was cholera, she couldn't get the cousins out. She got cholera.

She caught it and she died. So his whole family's dead and Jackson knew one thing, it was the British who had done this. And you can see why you'd think that, because it's true. It's because it was the British who had done this. And you can see why you'd think that, because it's true. That's because it was the British who had done it. Apart from his father, I don't think the British could be blamed for that one. But yeah, it was a really clear example how the war had a toll on poor people who weren't really getting that involved. But still. However, he finally gets some good luck. His grandfather in Scotland died and

due to the amount of death in the family, he suddenly found himself with the equivalent to $40,000 in modern money. So he went from having literally nothing to $40,000. That's pretty good. To a teenager. So he goes to Charleston and he blows it all almost immediately on drink, gambling and women. Yeah. So, well done there. However, he did manage to get an apprenticeship as a lawyer because he was quite bright. This was back when he didn't need formal training, so he passed the bar. He got into a duel at this point. They both shot into the air, however.

He left the town, he headed east, boarded with a widow and then met the daughter of the widow, but she was married to a man who seemed like a complete arse to all historical accounts. Anyway, Jackson and this man almost had a duel but the husband refused to duel. So Jackson and the woman, who was named Rachel, run off together to a town near New Orleans and a year later they go back to Nashville as man and wife hoping that the husband will have been forgotten about. Bigamy! That kind of works.

Anyway, they settle down. He works as a lawyer. He starts getting into politics as the area starts to get statehood. When it did get statehood, Jackson was voted to represent the state in the state house. After doing this for a while, he was appointed to the Tennessee Supreme Court. So things are all going well for him at this point. It's around this time he gets into another duel with someone bad mouthing his wife. He shot and killed the man after being shot himself.

The other man shot first. It hit Jackson in the rib and Jackson shot second. Shot the man in the gut who then bled out. It was only then Jackson sunk to the floor because he'd been shot. So that's nice, isn't it? Anyway, he doesn't want to be a judge on the Supreme Court of Tennessee, however what he wants to do is lead the militia. This is his dream. Long story short, he becomes the leader of the militia. He's sent off to New Orleans to help fight off the native attacks down there. The Native American tribes were obviously complex politically but a large portion of

them were starting to side with the British in what would become the War of 1812. So Jackson spends time fighting the Native American tribes who were siding with the British. A lot of nastiness goes down on both sides here. This was vicious. Both sides despising each other. Things like torture, mutilation, scalping, all sorts is going on. This is the worst kind of warfare. Jackson is shot in the shoulder but recovers quickly. It ends with Jackson massacring around 1,000 Red Stick people after they in turn had massacred around 500 people at Fort Mim. So a whole bunch of massacring going on. This is just nasty stuff. Jackson was promoted however and then put in charge of talking with the

Creek people. Now a majority of the Creek people had supported Jackson against what they considered the radical Red Stick people. Jackson racedly lumped all Native American people in together, however. So starts a long process that I'm not going to go into any detail here, but Jackson, to put it bluntly, lies repeatedly to the Creeks, and they end up being completely screwed over, losing all their land. Anyway, he then heads off to New Orleans proper, puts it under martial law because the British might be coming. Sure enough, the British are coming. Long story short here, they arrive. Jackson leads a very impressive victory against them. 300 British dead, 1,300 wounded, to only 13 United States troops dead, and 30 wounded. Very impressive.

It was such a victory, Jackson cemented his name in the minds of the national consciousness. He is now famous. Anyway, the war ends. It's a draw, but both sides can claim victory, which is nice. Soon after this, Jackson invades Florida. Hooray. Obviously to put down Native American resistance. Honest. Nothing to do with taking it from the United States, of course. He, let's face it, commits what would be considered war crimes today, because he starts burning down entire villages that he even suspected of aiding the enemy, because they look the same. He was so famous now as a general, he was practically offered the position of governor of Tennessee, which he declined, he didn't want to do it. Instead,

he was going to run for president. He did not like the way that the ruling class elites were taking the country. Few took him very seriously though. He was an uneducated soldier. He was not a member of the ruling class. But the common person on the street loved him. He was their champion general. And he used this to get a place in the Senate. He then runs against John Quincy Adams. He gets more votes than John Quincy Adams, but the Electoral College was essentially a draw and Congress ends up choosing John Quincy Adams. This is arguably the third most contentious election in American history, along with Hazes and the 2000 one.

It's the whole corrupt bargain thing. Anyway, Jackson was furious by this and immediately planned to run again. And he does. He wins the next day election easily. But in a bitter twist of fate, Rachel dies almost the same time as him winning the election. Jackson blamed it on the fact that his political enemies were using Rachel to attack him, and she found it too stressful. Anyway, when in power, attempts to get rid of the Electoral College. It's clearly a flawed system, it doesn't work very well, it means that someone who gets far more votes cannot be president because of the Electoral College system. I mean you

could argue it's very undemocratic but... You could, which also to point out the people who wrote this didn't write it not realising this. It was designed to do that. That's the whole point of the Electoral College, was to stop populism. But it also stops the will of the people. You can see where Jackson's coming from here. He's not happy with it. He wants to get rid of it. Anyway, he also tries to put in place term limits for presidents. If you don't have term limits, I don't know, you might end up with dictators. Neither of these go any way, however, he just doesn't have the political power to do it. He doesn't have the connections, he just can't get anywhere with it. The main

thing that did happen during his presidency was the Trail of Tears. At least the main thing we see through an historical lens. I'm sure back then it wasn't really noticed by most people in Washington or indeed America But certainly when we look back this was a big deal In his first annual message to Congress, Jackson suggested that they move Native American people who had not assimilated properly into the United States Let's just move them west of the Mississippi So that's fine, isn't it?

This mass deportation led exactly where you would expect it to lead. It's what happens every time it's attempted in history. Whenever there is a mass deportation of people, it always leads to death, destruction and despair. And that's what happens here. Between 2000 and 6000 people died in forced death marches across the country. Not all in one go. Don't think the Trail of Tears was just one journey, this happened over a period of years and it wasn't all under Jackson and Jackson wasn't the only person pushing for this. However, he is the president when it starts and he was pushing for it to happen so if you're gonna blame anyone, Jackson's a good person to blame. He started it. Anyway,

another major event that did happen was someone tried to kill him. Ran up to him with two pistols, shot both of them, and they both malfunctioned. Amazingly. Otherwise, Jackson almost certainly would have died. As it was, he went to beat his assailant with his cane. He was quite old at this point. But the others, like, other people got there first. I think I said in a recent episode that Jackson actually did start beating him. I'd misremembered that. Yeah, he went to though. It's just other people got there first. And some stuff happened with the banks. He did not like the banks, so he refused to let them continue, saying it's too federalist. So he insisted that they close and the economy collapsed and it was not good for the country. Generally, he was not a good president.

No, no. good for the country. Generally, he was not a good president. The things that he wanted to get done he couldn't really get through, apart from some things that ended up crashing the economy or indeed killing a lot of people for very racist reasons. However, that said, we did praise him for things like he wanted to bring democracy to the every man rather than the ruling elite. He thought that was important. He was the first president who came from humble beginnings, who wasn't part of a rich family to begin with, which is meant to be the American ideal. There are some things in there to like and also if we're talking silver screen, what a fascinating life full of jewels and

battles and love stories eloping, his wife dying on the eve of him becoming president There's so much in there. It's it's fascinating. So there you go. That's Andrew Jackson. Yeah. Wow Yeah, okay next up John F Kennedy a Democrat scoring 30 points in total Statesmanship 14, not bad. Disgracegate 10, medium, mostly for his awful womanizing. Silver screen 18, we were impressed with his story. In the end, canvas ability, full marks,

he's got the best portrait. No terms, didn't get to the end. Two for assassination, someone killed him. And only one for election, he scraped through. It was not a landslide whatsoever. So, born to a stupidly rich family as the second son, his father was to all accounts an awful person who lied, manipulated and womanised constantly. He even tried to steal his son's girlfriends at times. JFK grew up very sickly if you remember. His family's wealth ensured

he always got the best care above others, However, the family moved to New York when he was 10. He plotted through school, he got mediocre grades, but that was fine. He didn't need to get good grades. He was a Kennedy. However, there was one thing that money could not fix and that was his health. He was very, he was a very sickly man. Despite looking fit and healthy most of his life, he was constantly in and out of hospital due to his back problems and his bowel problems. When he was finishing up his education, he figured out that he had a talent, and it was the same one as his father's. He was able to seduce people. He had charisma coming out of everywhere.

Every orifice. The charisma was oozing past all those silver spoons. Yeah. He soon found that he was able to talk to women into bed with ease. And he starts doing so. It got to the point where he would refer to women he met as kid, because he could not remember whether he'd slept with them and didn't want to show that he'd forgotten their names. Oh. Yeah. Then he and a friend headed off to Europe for a holiday. It was 1937.

They went to France, Italy, Spain, Germany and England with all the confidence of a pair of rich kids. They disliked most of Europe apart from England where they met some people as rich as themselves and they got on with them quite well. Then they head back to home. He's back in Harvard but his dad becomes the ambassador to Britain at this time so JFK goes with him and spends the buildup of the war travelling around Europe as the son of a US ambassador. And he just pretty much irritated most of the officials he came into contact with.

The excuse was that he was writing as his thesis for Harvard, but really he was having a jolly. He goes back home after war breaks out and he joins up, he's going to serve. And for once his father's connections worked against him rather than for him. He wanted to go and see action, his father didn't so he ends up with a desk job but eventually his father cracks up to the pressure and Kennedy becomes a PT boat captain, a job he was wildly wildly unqualified for. This was the most sought after job in the Navy. He had no experience and yet he got it anyway. So he heads off to the Pacific.

But here was the first glimmer of the way we went, oh, you know what, that's actually quite good. Because up until this point, we hated every part of the story. Because when he gets to the war, his boat was sunk and he saves the lives of others by swimming around and then surviving on Islands with unconscious men in tow he volunteered to go out Into sea and just swim in the sea to try and hail a passing boat

Falling unconscious several times while he's out there. That's a really stupid thing to do. It is but it works Because eventually they are rescued. All right. Yeah,, it's genuine heroism. That's what it was. You can't take that away from him. He'd done something decent for the first time in his life. Just as, to be fair, countless other people did during the war as well. He certainly does not have any monopoly on this. Stories like his were happening all the time. It's just we know about his because he's JFK. Being who he was, his story was publicised heavily. His father was high up in politics, and it helped that his son was a war hero, and his other son had died in Europe, in a plane.

So Joe made it clear to his remaining son, you are the one who has to succeed and follow in my footsteps now, you're no longer the second son. So it was arranged for young Kennedy to run for Congress. He did so but he wasn't a natural politician. His speeches were bad that he came across as aloof and pretentious because he was aloof and pretentious. However with the family money behind him he won anyway and he entered Congress the same year as Nixon and McCarthy. He worked in Congress for six years. He flirted with the far right conservative faction of the Democrats because they had won back them and flirted with the far-right conservative faction of the Democrats, because they had one back them, and flirted with the whole Red Scare thing, but realized that it wasn't really for him, so he pulls away from that. Mainly what he does in Congress, though, is sleep around.

He sleeps around Washington. That's what he spends all his time doing. Then he runs for Senate, and he reluctantly gets. He realises that he had to settle down or it would harm his career. So he marries Jackie, the 22 year old he was currently with. And things were good for a year or two but then he was back to his womanising ways and it becomes a marriage of convenience. The two did care for each other, I'm not saying they hated each other, but this is not a whirlwind of love that the press reports and reported so well that to this day people still have this opinion that they were like massively in love with each other.

Anyway to promote JFK it was decided he should be an author so profiles in courage was written for him and released and he was praised for being such a good author and an insightful politician. Momentum builds behind him despite his young age. Over the last years JFK had actually become a very good politician. It took him a while to find his feet, but once he figured out how to use his charms that he usually used on women with voters, he realised that actually this was easy. He could just use that natural charm he's got. And it worked. His speeches were now really good. He had that knack of looking like he actually listened to people. So he was nominated to run for president eventually as he rises through the party and he's up against Nixon.

It's an incredibly close race. The first TV debate happens and JFK comes across as far better than Nixon. He's young and vigorous as old Nixon was old and sweaty and moody. Even though there wasn't that much of a difference between their ages, that's how it came out. It was very close. The popular vote in the end was 49.7 to 49.5 to JFK. He wins more comfortably in the electoral college, but it is shockingly close. The fact that upset JFK quite a bit. How did I come that close to losing against a Nixon of all people? Anyway, the whole Bay of Pigs thing's happened where the US blunders into Cuba. This, in retrospect, has been called by most historians as an example of the military bullying a new president into doing what they want. JFK is seen as weak

for bowing down to them. Berlin's a hot topic all through his presidency. He attempts to charm Khrushchev, but it doesn't work. A few times in his life charming people just does not work. Things are very tense between life charming people just does not work. Things are very tense between the two countries. People were fleeing into West Berlin, which was an embarrassment to the Russians. It looked like fighting was going to break out, but then Russia decides to put up a wall in Berlin to stop the mass exodus. That'll solve the problem. That way, yeah. I mean, so much of my life I was just so confused by the Berlin Wall

and what a stupid idea that was, but I now fully understand it. Yes, it was a stupid idea, but it put a sticking plaster on the nuclear war tensions that were going on and it did actually calm things down for a while. Short term, it was good. It stopped being good quite quickly and long term it was actually awful. But you can see where it came from. Anyway, things settle down a little bit and behind the scenes JFK starts opening channels with the Russians. Not publicly but we now know that actually the Russian and US were actually quite close at this time. JFK tries to say out of Vietnam he's having affairs with at least eight different women at this time during his presidency. Yeah, when did he have the time? And then there was a Cuban Missile Crisis. This is when the relations deteriorate suddenly and

sharply. Now, obviously not going into the ins and outs, but he is seen as doing a good job here. If you remember in the episode I asked you what you would do and you pretty much said that you'd do what Kennedy did before you knew what he did. And so you would have saved the world as well. He saved the world. Yeah, he navigates a tricky political situation and he gets credit for it. He then makes a stance on civil rights, something that many had elected him for but he had not done yet. But when he did, he did it against many of his advisors. He was told that if he came out supporting the civil rights movement, the democrats would lose their southern base support and give it a couple of decades the south will go republican if you could believe such a thing. JFK did it anyway. It's like, yeah, I'm doing it. We're gonna take the hit, but it's the

right thing to do. He said that it had been a hundred years since Lincoln had freed the slaves but their heirs were still not truly free. So he takes a hit politically to do the right thing. Well done there. He starts pushing forth what would become the Civil Rights Act, the biggest reforms in race laws in the country's history. It's undeniably a good thing. And then he was shot and killed in Dallas. Yes, yes he was.

Yes. We were frustrated by Orvo Silver silver spoons, but we were impressed by certain aspects of his life. His actions during the war, for example. Him then going from a rubbish president to slowly finding his feet and then ending actually quite strong. In fact, I listened to our summing up of him whilst doing this and I quote myself here, he was a better president than he was anything else in his life. Which I stand by. He was mediocre at pretty much everything until he became president and then he seemed to start to find his feet, grow a backbone, start to do the right thing. Which impressed us. Anyway, him being killed is the biggest assassination in presidential history apart from

Lincoln's. He's got a great portrait. However, all of that, he almost didn't get into this stage. We really debated whether he was going to get American or not. It took us quite a while to decide. We both hated him by the end of the first episode. We were both convinced he was not going to get it. But in the end, we just scraped him through, partly because he was the least racist president we had had in ages, and also the Cuban Missile Crisis. Again, I will quote myself here, well done for showing us that there was nothing more successful in this world than a mediocre white man. What tipped it for me personally was when you pointed out that we gave it to Jackson and neither

of us liked him. Just because we didn't like JFK as a person doesn't mean he shouldn't get it. And I went, that's a good point, so he got it. So both Jackson and JFK, despite the fact that we don't like them personally, we did give America county. So that is JFK. And finally we have our highest scoring in this group. J.J. JJ Madness. Madison, a Democratic Republican scoring 32.25, 8th overall. With a score of 17 in statesmanship, he is what we would consider the best president in this round by some margin.

Disgracegate, only 5. This is in an age where people owned people, so only getting five is quite impressive. Silver screen, pretty high with 14. Gamma's ability, oritis 3.25. He served two terms, no one tried to kill him. One for election. But what about his life? Well, he was born into the aristocracy in Virginia.

He did well at school. He went off to not the college that all the rich kids did at the time, William and Mary, but a college that would become Princeton. So it was a bit of a trendsetter. He went off to where Aaron Burr was being educated. We don't get first-hand stories of what he got up to in Princeton, but we know that students at the time did fun things such as freezing the bell. We never did find out what it was. No one ever contacted us to tell us what freezing the bell was. I still maintain this is on winter days. They pour water onto the bell, it freezes so it doesn't work. It's got to be that, hasn't it? Or just stop it from working. You just stick a bit of wood in there, dangly bit, and I

don't know. Maybe it's that, but we don't know. I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find this out. I don't know why it just stuck with me so much, this one phrase that I just really wanted to find out. Anyway, if anyone's listening now and knows, please let us know. Anyway, this is the 1760s and anti-British feeling is ramping up. Madison graduates, speeding up his study. He does the last two years in one. And he's also hiding his probable epilepsy at this point, because epilepsy was seen as a sign of the devil. You can tell we're quite far back in history at this time. Anyway, the war breaks out. Madison signs up to the militia, but he doesn't see much action and he leaves after a while,

so there's no exciting stories there. His dad was high up in Virginian politics, so he gets his son a job, and here he meets his lifelong friend and mentor, Thomas Jefferson. Due to various connections, he was then selected to go to Philadelphia for the Continental Congress. He worked with 27-year-old Alexander Hamilton on future finances for the country. Very exciting stuff. And was instrumental for the Three-Fifths Clause. Hooray! Yeah, when I say instrumental, there were two sides debating on exactly what the fraction should be,

and he was the one who came up with this compromise. Anyway, he was here when the war wrapped up. He fell in love, but it went nowhere. He got dumped, basically. It hugely depressed him. And then Jefferson went off to France, and Madison was left all alone, despondent, no girlfriend anymore, no best friend or mentor. So he gets into measuring animals. Which is nice. He does that for a few years. Anyway, then the Etch A Sketch Reader of the Country happens and Madison is back. He was the unofficial chronicler and he spoke over 200 times. The formation of the country was obviously done by many under committee, but a lot of Madison's ideas were the starting point. He was hugely influential in this Congress, to the point that he is referred to as the father of the Constitution.

He and Hamilton then start working together to defend the Constitution, to be ratified, and they both write a huge amount of essays now known as the Federalist Papers, a ridiculous amount of essay writing went on arguing about why the Constitution is good. And it was accepted and to prove that they could amend the Constitution, because it was not, I repeat, not a sacred text, it was a working document for government, a bunch of amendments were written immediately. There we go. No one will be treating this as a religious document in future, they said to each other confidently. Yeah. Anyway.

Probably scrapped in a few years, you know, something better. Probably, which is fine, you know, we'll just keep coming up with good ideas. Anyway, Madison was then put in charge of writing these amendments, which he then did. He ends up in the House as the most respected member. He meets Dolly, they wed, which is nice. There's a lot of fighting between the first two parties. Hamilton, and he had split ways by this point. Hamilton realised they had very different views of the future, so he goes off to start the Federalist party, and Madison, along with Jefferson and Monroe, are in the Democratic Republicans. So there's lots of infighting going on there. Then his friend, Jefferson, becomes the President. Hooray! Then his friend, Monroe are in the Democratic Republicans. So there's lots of in-fighting going on there.

Then his friend, Jefferson, becomes the president. Hooray. Then his friend, Monroe, becomes the president. Hooray. Then it's his term and he's the president. Hooray. He takes his oath in the newly built Capitol building. Very exciting. And he then has to deal with tensions with Britain because the war that would become known as the War of 1812 is hotting up and Jackson's off doing his thing, as is Harrison, but he's not here today. Anyway, tensions with Britain? Not good. The war builds. The United States invade Canada and burn down the Canadian equivalent to the Capitol building. News comes through that Napoleon had been defeated and the British could now actually pay attention to this war

and that's not good because this was very much a sideshow for Britain up until this point. The British then turn up in force, invade Washington and burn down the presidential mansion and the Capitol building in retaliation for the attack in Toronto. Things generally going very bad for the United States but then Jackson, he pulled off his amazing victory down in New Orleans,oray. And then the British suggested, why don't we call this one a draw? Yeah? We'll all pretend this never happened. We'll go back to trading how we did just before. How about it? This was fine by Madison, who realised they were in no position to win this only prolong it.

I mean, technically they could eke out a win like they had in the War of Independence by dragging it along until Britain lost interest financially. But why not stop now? Because we can stop now with terms where both of us can claim that we've won, which is what both sides did. Both sides claimed victory and the war ended. How nice. Thought all the people who had died during that war.

I'm so glad it was for something. Anyway, he then spends the rest of his presidency dealing with the banks, which I alluded to when talking about Jackson. There was a lot about banks at that time, federalism, and should they have national banks or not? And I'm not going to go into that right now because it's frankly not interesting. So that is Madison, and that is our fourth person for today. So we now go into debating who's going through. Well, it's not Hayes.

As painful as it is to say. What? What? Sorry, you said that as I was taking a drink, so I was not able to... I might go in and edit my what shock so it actually comes as you're saying it. What? What do you mean it's not hey i was when you said it's not with that tone of voice i knew 100 certainty you were going to say madison it's obviously not madison it's not madison no i think it's madison it's not madison if there's any it's not it's madison i don't care if he's the

top scorer he is the most boring out of these yeah he's important he was a founding father but let's face it he wasn't he was the least important founding father apart from maybe Monroe, fight me. And I just yes Madison's gone do you agree with that? Yeah I agree with that as well. I am not giving up on Hayes though. You're not giving up okay fair enough okay. No okay no I all right so when I said there's three Hayes, Jackson and Kennedy, I can understand all three of them going through. Okay, I can remember anything about Madison's, that's why I never really factored him in at the beginning.

Okay, fair enough. So it was always a three way split for me anyway. I just assumed Hayes was lovely, he didn't really do anything during presidency, but he is quite hilarious and lovely. And he's not going to stand a chance against Lincoln. It's not about the semi-finals, Jamie. Stop looking at the semi-finals. It's who out of these three? Okay, right. I will put forward an argument for Hayes. But I'll admit, I'll be following the trend of modern politics by not talking up Hayes, but by attacking his opponents. Jackson and Kennedy were almost not even in

this. Which makes them interesting. We almost didn't give it to Kennedy and I hated giving it to Jackson. They were reluctant Americans because I can see their impact on history and the national consciousness. Hayes, I think was the firmest American we ever gave. Yeah, probably. We were like, yeah, this man, this man needs American. We enjoyed every step of his journey. If you were to mention a president, someone said, oh, what's that?

You do an American history podcast on presidents. Tell me about a president. Hayes is gonna what's that you do an American history podcast on presidents, tell me about a president. He's just going to be in there isn't he? But not because of him being a president, because of his lovely lovely character. We're not judging who's the best president. No, no, no, but even as he's not a memorable president. We're looking at their whole life up until when they need presidency, and I would say he had a fascinating life with lots of interesting things happen. Whereas Jackson and Kennedy were both... Yeah, but loads of amazing... I'm gonna fight for Jackson here.

Oh right, okay, you're fighting for Jackson. Go on then, persuade me why Jackson. His life. He grew up poor, his whole family died in front of him. He was in multiple duels. He killed somebody. He was shot. He did an amazing vitre of the British. Boo. And he was an awful person at the same time and a really bad president. That is fascinating and interesting. What about Kennedy? Do either of us want to argue for Kennedy? No. Then I think we've got our next person to go out then haven't we? Yeah. Yeah. I think Kennedy can go. I could see go out then, haven't we? Yeah. I think

Kennedy can go. I could see why other people might decide to put him through. Hmm. But I don't think he did enough to warrant going into a semi-final. So goodbye Kennedy. We are just talking about Hayes and Jackson then. It's basically do we go for a more interesting or a slightly less interesting but fun personality? Do we want excitement, bloodshed and horror or do we want fun, lightness and joy? But we've got that with Roosevelt. We've got that with Lincoln. Oh yes, you're saying we need to balance it out with a bleep of a person, do you? I'm not saying anything, I'm just, I just say I think there's more to talk about Jackson

I think he's historically more interesting. I think Hayes was a golden goose find it was brilliant but... Hayes was in the in the Civil War you get to see all of that stuff and you get scenes of him chatting to the soldiers. Remember when he was leading the band? I didn't mention that today but he led the band for a while. He was really proud of his band as they went around. You've got Jackson death marching lots of Native Americans across the country. I know and it's awful. It's so awful.

But it's interesting. It is interesting. It is. You've got Jackson discovering Florida. Yeah, for the first time. He walked in there. Oh look! This would be a great retirement place. There's no one here. Not anymore. Ahhhhh.

You know I'm right, you just want us all unusual in the semi-final. Ahhhh. See, the irritating thing is, I'd say 90% of the time whenever we've had tie-breaks discussions, whether it's in the group stages or it's do they get genases out or American 90% of the time I know I'm gonna get my own way and that's mainly because I just know more about it than you so I can pull out more arguments because I've been doing the research and you've only just been given the information it's always put me at an advantage but I have I hate to say it I'm I think you are right I don't want you to be right I want Hayes to go through because I like and are right. I don't want you to be right. I want Hayes to go through because

I like Hayes. And I like Hayes. I love Hayes as well. But coming second is very, very impressive. Coming second is impressive. It's a bronze medal. You need to give me something that Jackson did that makes me go, oh yeah, that's a good point. Um, he... I think the story of his life is really tragic and then just got really annoyed. At the age of 13 trying to

trying to kick the British's ass because they killed his brother and he didn't quite do it but he sought revenge on the British the rest of his time. His childhood is far more interesting isn't it? Hayes just has a brother who dies in a lake and apart from that he makes a friendship group. He got smallpox! Got smallpox god god damn it. You're right, you're right, okay. Fine, fine, you can have it. You can have this one, Jamie. Just know, all of the awful stuff he did is now on you. Sorry guys. That's how history works. But you're right, he has a more interesting life, as evidenced by the fact he got 20 in silver screen compared to Hayes' 7. In fact, I just realised I forgot to go through Hayes' breakdown. He does not score very well at all apart from In Disgrace Gates. Statesmanship he only got 8, silver screen he only got 7, canvas ability he got

3.75, it was fine. Only did one term No one tried to kill him and he didn't and he lost the popular vote. So we got nothing in election He scored really badly. The only reason why he got as high as nineteen point seven five is that he got zero disgrace gate Yeah, one of only three presidents who did so I think you're right having just that one thing as opposed to Jackson full marks on Silver screen and full negative marks on disgrace gate makes him interesting. Fine, I give him. Jackson goes through, but I don't like it. No, I understand why. Which I believe is exactly what I said when he gave him America. He's my pick now, I'm trying to get him to

win the whole thing. Oh, first Democrat versus first Republican. Oh yeah. That's interesting. Interesting semi-final. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, thank you very much for listening. We now know our semi-finals. We have Roosevelt v. Roosevelt and Lincoln v. Jackson. Yeah. And thank you for downloading us where you do download us from. Oh, I'm going to the US next week, Rob. Next week? I'm going to the US next week Rob next week I'm going to Boston yeah next week yeah did I know this probably oh yes no because Anita's looking after your dog that that's why right yes yes no I did I did know this yeah I mean I didn't no no no but oh that's exciting

what are you gonna do in Boston well there's the there's a presidential walk like that's nice yeah let's do that get to eat lots of food, get to visit Canada as well, should be nice. I mean unfortunately I don't know if you'll find this, Boston just doesn't have much history in America. No. You'll have to try and find somewhere else. Yeah. I mean I think they've got one or two things happen there.

I heard they've got like a port that you can visit. Ah, yeah, be fine then. I'm sure one or two things about presidential history you'll find. Might have a cup of tea while I'm there, that'd be good. Oh that you can visit. Ah, yeah, it'll be fine then. I'm sure one or two things about presidential history. Might have a cup of tea while I'm there, that'd be good. Oh, that'd be nice. Yeah, that'd be good. Right, well, that's been... If you're thinking, ah, does that mean ages till the semi-finals? Hopefully not. We're hoping to get those semi-finals recorded soon

and therefore we'll be able to release them even though Jamie is off to the Americas. Back to the colonies. Yes, but we will see exactly when and then hopefully my plan for the final is starting to come together and it will be a little bit different but I don't know for certain yet but we will see. Right okay thank you very much for listening. Thank you very much and goodbye. And goodbye. And this is the BBC's coverage of the American sports. Hello, I'm Winston Featheringway. I'm Cuthbert Manbatten and here we are on ice. On ice. And before our listeners get a bit confused, we are not the ones on ice, are we Cuthbert man batman here we are on ice on ice and before our listeners get a bit confused

we are not the ones on ice are we Cuthbert? No we are sitting in a booth in a booth next to an ice arena it's all very exciting and I should say upfront if you're tuned in for the basket of the ball well just just let you know apparently they decided to move in a different direction. That was the word, so very disappointing, I was enjoying that. But it is the ice hockey. It's very similar to hockey, but on ice. On ice. That is absolutely fascinating. And unlike in the British lands, where we use a ball, they are using something called a, I have to say this very carefully, a puck. Yes, it's a puck.

I'm not entirely sure what the Shakespearean reference is, but hopefully that will become clear. To lay the scene here, just imagine a hockey field, ladies and gentlemen, on ice. And there you have it. It looks quite similar. You've got a couple of goals there, and you've got an ice arena, and you've got oh and the marvelous music being played repeatedly They've been playing that tune at least every five minutes for the last couple of hours And you know what I've not got bored of it yet No, it just makes me want to eat more popcorn and eat more hot dogs. Huzzah. Yes. Huzzah, right? Okay

And here we go The way this is being done apparently it's quite unusual. It's two on two and then the winning team will shoot off against each other. Very similar to the basketball last week. And here we have our first team coming out onto the ice. And the first we have Hayes who is wearing full body armor and with a massive red on his face and his tea partner is Andrew Jackson carrying his cane and three pistols. And a scowl, a big scowl there. He looks a little bit like Peter Capaldi just so you can picture it. And then we have our next team playing in green is John F Kennedy. It's a very fabulous looking uniform he's got on. And James Madison.

James Madison coming up on the rear. A firm favourite there of the crowd. I want to cheer on James Madison. Well, he did write the Constitution. Yes, yes. Did you read the Federalist Papers? I certainly did. Oh no, of course not.

Oh, so many. OK, they are facing up against each other. And? And they're having a puck off. Go, go, Winston. Don't be so many. Okay, they are facing up against each other and... And they're having a puck off. Good call, Winston. Don't be so rude. No, no, A is where they drop the puck in between and the first one grabs it and goes. Oh, I see, I see. And with the delightful notes of the organ in the air, the game is go. Go, go, go. We are afoot. And Jackson is grabbing the puck. Oh, a fight's broken out! A fight! I can see the puck is being ignored now.

Madison is punching Rutherford to beat Hayes. I mean, they've got habits on, they can't, presumably they're not in pain here, but there's a lot of thrumping and punching and pushing going on. Yes, and Hayes just appears to be apologizing to Madison. Madison doesn't seem to care. No. Oh and it's been broken up by the referee and apparently that is one point to Hayes and Jackson. Apparently they didn't get a point for this I'm afraid. No as they were fighting Jackson got it past JFK. Oh yes of course I didn't see because the puck is so incredibly small, it's quite hard to see what's going on and it's incredibly fast.

Anyway, back to the puck off. Excuse me? The puck, puck dear boy. Oh, oh yes, and they're pucking away down the field. And off they go and oh apparently one of them scored, again didn't actually see it. It's hard to tell, but really hard, it's so fast. You see above the little goal, there's little lights. When it goes on, it scored.

Right, so if I spend my whole time looking at that light, I'll know what's going on. Yes, you look at that when I look at the other one. Marvellous. That's another point, but he scored by Hayes today at this time. Yes, that puts them two up, they only need one more to win. And, and, Puck off! Do you kiss your mother with that tongue? No just... it's started man look at those legs! Oh! Oh! And... Oh! My lights got off! My lights got off! It was...

Oh! It must have gone in the... Yes! It was Jackson! It was Jackson! Well that's 3-0 then, that's Jackson and Hayes have won the first round and now they are going to go against each other. Apparently this is penalties. Oh dear. You can see the majority of the crowd are cheering for Hayes here. Yes, so what happens here is Hayes is in the middle of the ice arena and he is going to skate towards Jackson who's defending the goal. And again with the dulcet tones of that organ we begin. And off he goes, it's a bit slower than the main game this I think I can actually follow what's going on. He's got the puck, he's swerving side to side. Oh it's come off the bar, it's come off the bar. Oh, he's flown into the audience and been caught.

Yes it seems to have hit a small child, a Small child is long before bleeding out. But Andy Jackson doesn't care for that. He is off. He's taking the puck to the center. All he needs to do is score this, and he is through. He's skating, he's skating, he's gone left, he's gone right, he's the little pirouette, and... Oh, it's in, it's in, it's in. Is it in? I think it's in.

The lights got off, it must be in. The lights got off, it must be in. Oh my goodness, Winston. It's incredibly fast and exciting and hard to see. It's hard to see. But I love commentating this and I can't wait for the next round in the semi-final to be hosted here by us. Yes, more ice of the hockey to come, more hot dogs, more of this fantastic beverage that they drank here. Yes, I believe it's a root beer.

Quite amazing, reminds me of my trip to hospital. Well, there we go then. Well done to Jackson, and yes, he's going off now. Oh, and Hayes is off, they're going to shake hands., No Jackson has nutted him between the eyes. Hayes falls to the floor, big grin on his face, And as the blood spills onto the ice, We bid you farewell. I have been Cuthbert Mandat. And I have been Winston Featheringway.

Good evening. Good evening.