American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Knockouts: Semi Final II

Episode Date: August 17, 2024

We come to the second semi final where the two winners of group C and D face off against each other! The winner here will face the other finalist to see who wins American Presidents: Totalus Rankium!�� Plus: We look into which era of the USA had the best presidents! 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium! This week, SET FINAL TWO! Hello and welcome to American President's Totalus Rankium, I am Jamie. And I am Rob, ranking all of the presidents is what we did and here we are in a semi-final where we are going to find out who is going to go through to the final of all of American President's Totalus Rankium. I'm genuinely quite excited for this because one of my hot favorites is in this semi-final. Yeah, I fought for it. I did fight for it. You did well. It's Lincoln v Jackson and you've you fought hard for Jackson to go through. Yeah, feedback on that. Most people seem to

agree but I'll talk about that later although there were some people sad about Hayes not being there. Well they they losing? Yeah, so, but before we start, Jamie, I'm gonna come out and just be honest with our listeners. Because, well, we could pretend, we could keep up the pretence, but I'd slip up at some point. And why not just be honest? So, we are recording this late at night, this semi-final, and then when we finish, we are going to then wait maybe about half an hour or an hour and then record the very final yeah for reasons that will become clear we are having to record the final at half midnight our

time yay yay late night recording yeah but it's fine it's the things we like to do oh yeah no this is this is all gets exciting reason for it makes it feel exciting that we're near the end Now this is because our final we have some guests. Yeah, genuine Americans Jamie genuine Americans We'll talk about who they are and another time It's not FDR It is he agreed to an interview, but they needed to know who was going to be in the final Yes he did, he agreed to an interview. But they needed to know who was going to be in the final.

We haven't recorded the semi-final yet and because of various reasons with you going on holiday and me going on holiday and this being the only time we had to record, we have already decided who has won this semi-final haven't we Jamie? Yeah, I mean you look at the two names it's fairly obvious. Well we're not going to say who we decided. No. No, could be either of them. But we're going into this very very unlike the last one where it could have gone either way and it was

very very close. This one we're going on in we decided we made a call off air so we could tell our guests in the final. But that doesn't mean we're not gonna do the episode. No. We're gonna do the episode because let's face it I don't't think this is going to be a tricky decision for anyone and it certainly wasn't for us. But before we go into deciding whether it's Lincoln or Jackson, let's do what I promised we were going to do last time, which is let's get stat heavy. Let's look at those numbers. Ooh yeah. Yeah. And this time we're going to look at the eras. Ah, like the Gilded Age and the Depression and stuff like that. Yes, yeah.

Okay, sounds good. Hugely influenced by Taylor Swift and her tour. Well, of course. Of course. Are you proud of me, Jamie? That was a pop culture reference right there. I know you're trying to hide it, but I know you're a massive Swiftie. I know you're trying to hide it, but I know you're a massive Swifty. I genuinely don't know whether that was pop trivia that you also knew or whether you didn't know that either.

No I did know that. You could go either way with you. It's been on news around for weeks. Oh right, okay. Fair enough. Anyway, yeah, that's what we're doing. So let's look at the errors. Editing Rob here.

Jumping on to say this gets a bit data heavy, I'll be honest, even for me, who loves the data, and it occurs to me that being able to read the table that we're about to discuss will make it much easier to follow. So I'm going to put the table of Lincoln and Jackson and their results on our social media sites. So if you're listening and you want to see it, go over to Facebook or go over to Twitter or threads and you'll be able to follow along with the data. Okay, that's me done. Back to the episode. Let's look at the eras! And you're absolutely right, well sort of, you're not quite right.

The Gilded Age is one that I would have said, but we're not just going to make up our own. What we're going to do is we're going to look at the eras of American politics, and yes I have my own views on this, but to keep it simple, I'm going to go for what is most widely accepted by political scientists and historians, rather than just making up my own, which I really wanted to do and I was tempted to do. Out of interest, what would you do? Off the top of your head, how would you split up America into time periods? I guess sort of pre-pre-independence. Yeah. Then like the early age. Yeah. Then the middle, then the late. Yeah, pretty much. Fair enough. You got it. Right, well, I'm just going to go through what the eras are according to the consensus,

shall we? The first era of political history is the founding fathers and John Quincy Adams. He gets squeezed in there as well. Essentially this is setting up of the country and the fighting between the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans. Yeah. Yeah. Then, Second Era.

This goes from the founding of the Democrats with Jackson and ends with the end of the Whigs with Fillmore. Does that have a name? It's called The Second Era. Ooh, Swift Second Tour. I like it. era. This is dominated by the new Democrats and the new Whigs battling each other and also the expansion of America. Now you can probably guess what the next era is called? Is it the third era? It is the third era. The third era is when the Republicans come along and replace the Whigs and then you've got the Civil War.

But then the third era continues beyond the Civil War into the Reconstruction era. It is dominated by the Democrats against the Republicans, issues over slavery and states' rights in the first half and then the latter half of it it's more the Gilded Age and the Robert Barons take over. It kind of makes sense, it's a continuous narrative. I mean it all is a continuous narrative, but it's quite bookended by- Yeah, and you've got a very clear, distinct Democratic party and Republican party that stay roughly the same throughout, so that's why it goes up until the 1890s.

Now it's not pinned down exactly which is the first and last president in this case, so I've decided that we are going to start with Pierce and end with Cleveland's second presidency. So that's what we're going to count as the Third Age. Then the Fourth Era starts in the mid-1890s, and this era is dominated by the Republicans tackling the Gilded Age. It is often referred to as the Progressive Era as many reforms are made, and it continues up until the Great Depression.

Okay. Then, the Fifth Age starts with the recovery from the Great Depression by FDR. FDR starts the Fifth Age. It sees a lot of social reform. It's also known as the New Deal Era. FDR defines this era. Both Democrats and Republicans do well. They're both maneuvering around each other, and this is where we start seeing them swap

their bases. Yeah. It ends with Reagan. He brings an abrupt end to the 5th age with his right-wing reforms, which leads us up into the 6th age. Reagan to present day. The country has been pulled to the right dramatically and becomes much more divided. The Republican party go hard right while the Democrats sort of mingle in the middle. Both parties have success, but the Democrats tend to have more popular support with their progressive views. Actual reform is very limited in this deadlocked era as government has ground to a standstill. Yeah, so where both parties say no to whatever side introduces something. Now, some people argue we've actually entered the seventh age with Trump.

I was about to say. But it's really hard to call when you're in the thick of it, whether it is or not, so it's yeah there's this idea that we might now be in another age because let's face it Trump is nothing like Reagan whatsoever, can you really call that in the same age? But who knows maybe Trump is a blipip I know it doesn't feel like it right now but if he loses the next election he will have only been a one-term president and if then his supporters fall apart and the center of the GOP managed to take power again history will just see Trump as a blip which is hard to believe after the last decade we've had but equally he

could win and it will completely transform the way the Republicans go. So we're ignoring that for now. We're just going to choose those six ages. I'm going to call them age one, the founding age, age two, the expansion age, age three, the civil war slash gilded age. Poor name, but it's all I've got. Fourth age, the progressive age, fifth Age, the New Deal Age. And the Sixth Age, the Modern Age. So now we have our ages. I think this is in many ways even more fascinating than the parties we did last time, which I do love geeking over stats. So we're going to start with statesmanship. Out of those periods, where do you think the best presidents

came from? My guess would be expansion or progressive. Interesting, interesting. No, no it's not. The very worst presidents, according to us, actually came from the expansion age. So just to be clear, that is Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor and Fillmore. Of course. Yeah, it's a bunch of wigs that didn't do very well basically, that's why they really suffer and the Democrats in the early days had some quite objectionable views.

So yeah, so expansion age is the worst. Then we go to the Civil War and the Gilded Age. We actually said they were slightly better. The expansion got an average of 5.6 whereas the Civil War, Gilded Age, an average of 7.4. So still not good, but better. Then third worst, modern age. That yeah average of 7.4, so still not good, but better. Then third worst, modern age. That, yeah, of course. Yeah, it goes to show, only 8.1 average the modern age.

The modern age obviously is Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump. We're saying they're only marginally better on an average of 8.1 than the Civil War and Gilded Age presidents. Their scores are very similar and this really highlights my theory that we're living through the Second Gilded Age. Anyway, third best. We then go up not by much at all. We go up to the Progressive Age, 8.7.

So that's quite nice. That's McKinley, Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover. They didn't do too bad. Then we go into the New Deal age, with an average of 10.6, which is very impressive. The New Deal president starting with FDR, our top scorer, but we've also got Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter in there as well. So they do really well, but that obviously leaves our very best age. If you wanted a good president what you wanted to do was live in the founding age. Interesting. Yeah with an impressive 14.5 average. Blows every other era out the

water. It certainly takes a nosedive doesn't it from the founding fathers expansion era. Yeah it's because I think what it was is we were very impressed with all these people who came along with these big new ideas to start a democracy based on the ancient democracies and then they hit a reality wall and everything starts falling apart and it's really bad for quite some time about a century and a half the whole slavery thing was going on and then eventually the New Deal Age comes along and things finally start getting a bit better for people. And then the Modern Age happens.

Anyway, so that's statesmanship. What about how disgraceful they are though? Oh. Who were the most disgraceful? I think expansion. You're saying the expansion age. No, no. Again, I'll go in reverse order. The least

disgraceful according to us was the Fourth Age, the Progressive Age, with an average of minus 6.8. They were starting to be progressive at that point. They were changing things, trying to get out of the Gilded Age, and generally with the likes of McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover. I mean there are some dodgy characters in there but it wasn't too bad. Then we have the New Deal Age after that with an average of 7.75. Then the Expansion Age with an average of minus 8. And then we've got in third place the Modern Age with an average of 8.6. And then the Civil War slash Gilded Age with 8.5. So again those two eras are

incredibly close to each other. Again supporting my theory we're living in the Second Gilded Age. According to us the most disgraceful era to live through was the Founding Age. Best presidents, most disgraceful. Well they're enslaved. Well this is it. They came up with some great ideas for democracy. They came up with some awful ideas about owning people. Yeah. Yeah. So they got a lot of disgrace points back then. So there you go.

Modern times, generally a lot less disgraceful than the early times. But generally, apart from the founding age being on minus 14, I mean the spread isn't that much. It was 6.8 to 8.6. It's... Yeah. So, fairly even throughout history, I'd'd say. Okay who were the most interesting? Oh the thing is you've got the war in like the fourth and the fifth but you've got the

fights in the founding fathers as well. It's hard this isn't it? It is. I'm going to say either progressive or new deal because that's World War I and II and you had a lot of presidents that fought in those wars. Unfortunately you're wrong, the least interesting age according to us is the progressive age, even though it does have World War I in it. America's involvement in World War I wasn't that interesting from a president perspective. I'm not saying it's not interesting, it certainly is important, but from a President history perspective World War 1 wasn't a huge deal in our podcast, so they only scored an average

of 8.7. Next was the expansion age with an average of 9.4. Then we got the modern age with 10.5. Our third most interesting age was the Civil War slash Gilded Age with 11.4 again similar to the modern 10.5 so for the third time I'm saying we're living in the second Gilded Age then our second most interesting age is the New Deal Age where you do have World War 2 going on I think that is very interesting but that obviously leaves only one more that is the founding Founding Age is, according to us, the most interesting with a score of 15.5.

That's a strong score. But the Founding Age is just running away with it, really, isn't it? They are, apparently, according to us, the best presidents. They are the most disgraceful, but they also are the most interesting. Which is interesting. I'm not going to go into detail on Kamas' ability because it is all muchamuchness. They all scored roughly 2.9 on average. So it goes to show that things evened out in that round. But total scores, I think you could probably guess who's going to win this.

Founding Fathers. Yes it is indeed the Founding Fathers. The lowest total score was the Second Age. Then it was Civil War Gilded Age with 15.4 and then the modern age got 15.5 oh look almost identical again and then 15.9 for the progressive age 22.4 for the new deal age but a very very impressive 29.75 average for the founding age which then finally leads us to Americans. Who got the most Americans? Oh, I don't know. Founding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally is. Founding age got the most with five Americans out of six presidents. The second age only got two out of seven presidents.

That's a really bad. Civil War gilded age only got three out of 10. That's also really bad. The progressive age only got one out of 7 presidents got American for the Progressive Age. The Third and Fourth Age do not have many good presidents in, I'll just put it bluntly. So only 4 out of 17. Anyway, it then improves a bit. The New Deal Age gets 4 out of 8, so half of them. But then it really drops again. Only two out of six for the modern age have got American. So which was the least? What was the worst? So percentage wise the very least was the fourth age with only 14 percent, but founding fathers run away with it again with 18, sorry not

18, 83 percent having American. So I think what we can successfully say by crunching the data Jamie is that the podcast went downhill after the first six episodes. Oh it really did. Yeah yeah first six were apparently really interesting full of good stuff and disgrace to talk about and then it just really went downhill. It's really interesting because I've been populating what we've been saying. Oh yeah. By my own little thing here. So Found fathers best statesmanship most disgraceful most interesting most

scores most Americans are founding fathers. Yeah. The second era was statesmanship and lowest scoring. So that's not great. Third era. Nothing. They don't stand out. Fourth era progressive least disgraceful least interesting least Americans.

Fifth era, nothing. And then sixth era, now, nothing. That's just interesting as well. Yeah, it is interesting how all the eras play out. Yeah. And if you have wondered, it's like I've said a few times before why we started this podcast with the whole, why Trump? How has this happened?

Is politics on decline in America? I think we can safely say no. It's not ultimately on decline, unless you're counting the very starts and the ideals. There have been rough patches in American history before, and there will be again in the future. What I will say is that it's not on the up, and we are in a drought at the moment. But it's not unprecedented. It's definitely not. It is very much like the Gilded Age. So what happened after the Gilded Age?

Well, maybe we're about to enter a new Progressive Age, which also won't be great, but then we're gonna get a new Deal Age again, a new New Deal, and maybe things will get better. Who knows? Anyway, that is a lot of data crunching. I will put that table on our social media. So if you're listening, should have said this at the start, I'll edit it in.

If you're listening and you want to look at the table whilst we're talking about it, just so it's easier for you to process all the data we've just thrown at you, I'll put it up on our Facebook. I'll put it on our threads, Jamie, because that's right. Oh yeah. Yeah, we're using threads now. I will put it on Twitter for now, but we are moving away from Twitter for reasons we don't need to get into now.

But let's just say, in this country in particular, we've had enough of it. We've had enough. So we're looking for ways to move away from Twitter without losing all of our base. Anyway, so I'll put it up on the social medias. Anyway, right, okay. Now down to what we're here for, Jamie. What we're here for is to come to the conclusion that we've already agreed to beforehand. And let's hope we don't form a different opinion because it'll mess up the final.

Oh, it really will. We'll see. Okay, let's do statesmanship. Statesmanship. Okay, Lincoln got 18 in this round, Jackson got 4. Yeah, I mean Jackson wasn't known as being a good president. He wasn't a good president. We've got a very clear winner. Lincoln wins this round. He got a high score in statesmanship.

Jackson came 33rd. Wow. Yeah. But, let's just remind you, very briefly, Lincoln came into the presidency with the country literally splitting apart. It was a mess. And by the end of the presidency, he had mostly brought it back together again. No, it wasn't perfect. But the broad strokes show that he achieved something special. Most presidents we have covered would have shied away from what needed to be done at

the time, I would argue. The pre-war presidents and most of the Gilded Age kind of proved this. They were all avoiding it and kicking the can down the road and pretending the war hadn't happened and all sorts. It was very frustrating. Lincoln was the only one who actually stood up and did something. He seemed to do things based on a moral code, which was rare out of all our presidents. We did not see many presidents do that. Off the top of my head, Obama, Lincoln, Washington. Um, Hayes, maybe? Ah, Hayes was just a nice man. I don't think he was really as a president. Carter was a nice man, but you could argue Kennedy started to at the end. He realized that this was the

right thing to do, so this is what I should do. I'm not saying that all the other presidents didn't have morals, I'm just saying how well does it show through in their presidency. I said Obama, I'm more thinking of his early life than his presidency. Anyway, the point is Lincoln. He was doing the right thing even though it was costing him. Obama brought in the Medicaid. He did, he did, but that was also to make him popular as well, you could argue. Yeah, but anyway, so, well done Lincoln, is what I'm trying to say. The war could have been ended without the slavery problem being addressed. It's almost this idea now because

it happened. It's like, well obviously the Civil War was to end slavery. No, Civil War was caused because of slavery. The Civil War wasn't there to end slavery. There was a subtle difference there. The civil war could have ended without slavery ending. But Lincoln didn't do that. He was not solely responsible for ending slavery in the United States, but he is the one at the top of our list when we're ranking people. There's no one else on our list who is more responsible.

So he can claim credit for that in this podcast. The political divides he managed during the war with allied states that still wanted slavery was hard but he still managed to do it so that really impressed us in this round. However, we did criticize him. He did bribe people during the war to get votes so he cheated. It's never good when your politicians are bribing people. It will seed corruption. But you could argue, when the country's literally falling apart, drastic measures. But then it is easier to say that when he's doing something that I agree with. Yeah, that's true.

So this is why we criticised him there. Also, we did fear that maybe he's a bit over-hyped, due to him being killed off at the height of his popularity. I mean, what a time to die, eh? He couldn't have picked it better if he'd chosen, although I'm sure he would have chosen something different, but it did cement him going down in American history as a legend in American history. Yeah. So that's Lincoln. What about Jackson? What did we praise Jackson for? Well, we did praise him. We did. We praised him for being a voice of the people at a time where it was literally only elites in power.

We praised him for trying to get rid of the very flawed electoral college system, which he saw straight away was a mess. It didn't work, but he tried. He was also a war hero for the country. A lot of people liked him. However, there's no getting away from the fact he was a poor president. He crashed the economy based on beliefs that he had entrenched in him that weren't really based in reality. He just hated anything to do with the federal government. He gave jobs to his friends rather than the best people for the job, although that was very common back then, and in fact throughout most of American history. And oh, death marches, Jamie. I don't know if I've mentioned the death marches before

yeah I may have brought up once or twice yeah I might have forgotten that anyway so it's a clear winner isn't it? It's Lincoln yeah absolutely it's Lincoln okay let's go on to the next one okay well Abraham Lincoln got minus two in this round. Very impressive. Is this for the Steeding Transylvites? No, it wasn't that actually. It was just that... well, I'll go into it in a moment. Andrew Jackson, minus twenty. Yeah, he was the worst. This is a very, very clear cut. Lincoln comes fourth overall with his minus two. Jackson comes dead last with his minus twenty. So, why did they score so far apart? Well, 4th overall with his minus 2, Jackson comes dead last with his minus 20. So why did they score so far apart?

Well, for Lincoln, we didn't really have anything to say. We talked about the relationship with his wife Mary. Some said that it wasn't a great relationship, but we didn't think that deserved points. Lincoln was often depressed, and he and Mary had lost two sons and it put strain on the relationship. Yeah. Yeah, so we did not give any points out there. We gave him a point each, just because he wasn't perfect. He said some dodgy things

in his early life with the casual racism that was just floating around at the time. He was not a perfect individual, so we gave him a point each. So that's why he got minus two. As for Jackson, well, he killed people personally in duels. He threatened people. He beat them with canes. He ignored judgments from legal courts. He illegally ordered executions while he was a general. He illegally invaded a country. He systematically lied to a Native American population stealing their land

and was responsible for the Trail of Tears. At the end of Disgrace Gate, I say, and I quote, what amazes me is that he didn't end up a military dictator. Yeah, he didn't did he? He's quite into the old democracy. Yeah, if there was anyone in American history who I would have thought might try and not go peacefully after losing an election, it would have been Jackson. Yeah, but no president would do that.

Well obviously they understand the most important thing in democracy is the peaceful transfer of power. So I mean again it's just there's not much to talk about here. Lincoln obviously is the winner in this round. Yeah. Okay next. Okay this is the only one where Jackson has the edge, arguably. Although it's not clear cut, Jackson was second overall. Lincoln is way down in 14th, surprisingly. I guess he didn't see much action in some of his more backstage admin. Yeah, this is it.

Jackson gets the full 20 in this round for his action packed life. Lincoln gets 15 out of 20. Like say, he didn't see everything. It's still a fascinating life. Maybe we're slightly harsh with 15, but that's the way it's gone. Just like last time, I'm going to read verbatim off my notes, just like last time to remind you. These are written from memory at the end of my notes, and they are in no detail at all whatsoever. So Lincoln's notes were Born in log cabin, trips now Mississippi, south-taught, bad with ladies Gets into politics, law firm, meets Mary, things don't go well due to him feeling inferior

and her family agreeing The Depression Mary, children, death of first child, politically fighting against Douglas, fails to beat him as a senator, goes for president, wins Civil War. Walking the tightrope, trying to keep each side happy. 13th Amendment, winning Civil War, assassination on the eve of victory. Yeah. Yeah. So all that got him a 15. Do you think we'll hush with his life? No, I think that's about right.

No? Okay. Jackson, not as many notes, interestingly, even think that's about right. No, okay. Jackson? Not as many notes, interestingly, even though it's gotten much higher. So here were my notes for Jackson. Sad childhood, which I think underplays it slightly. Because his childhood was... wow. Anyway, sad childhood. Fun times as student. Burning things. Jewels. Meeting already married Rachel. Running off together. More jewels. Brawls. War.

More war. Running for office. Losing. Hard campaign. Rachel dies. But then it all becomes a sad affair once he reaches his presidency. Political wrangling. The Trail of Tears.

And a big cheese. Big cheese? Do you not remember the early days, days Jamie when there were big cheeses? Oh the givens gifts? Yeah yeah the big massive cheeses. Yeah there was a big cheese in this episode. Some reason we didn't remember that as much as the forced death marches. So there you go that's Silver Screen.

Yeah I think that's fair because you could have a series just like Jackson. Like an HBO 10 series thing. Yeah, I mean, you have had the equivalent for Lincoln. Yeah. Well, you've had obviously the very famous film, but they're always making series about Lincoln's time, usually not Lincoln himself though, usually people around Lincoln.

But yeah, but you're right, Jackson's would be fascinating. I can't see it ever being made because he's so contentious, but it would be fascinating. He's still on the money though. He is still on the money isn't he? Interesting. Okay, well that's recapping the rounds, but just like last time, let's hear what our Patreons think and then maybe they'll change our mind that is already made up. think and then maybe they'll change our mind that is already made up. Bye bye people of the people. Okay, just like last time, three people for each president. Let's do Lincoln's first, shall we?

This is Grgr. Grgr. Grgr. Grgr. Gregor? I've always said Gregor in my head, but it might not be. It might be short for Grgr. Anyway, I'll quote Grgr.

Of all the presidents, Lincoln is the one I would most like to meet. I want my day to be periodically interrupted with him interjecting with a story he is reminded of. I don't completely buy into the romantic myth, but he genuinely seems both fascinating and endlessly affable. Yeah? Yeah, that's true. Er, Doc Martian. Jackson is horrible. A violent murderer who committed and helped propagate America's two original sins, native genocide and slavery. Lincoln brought about

the final end to one of them. So therefore we should vote for Lincoln. Very good argument. It's a very good argument. And, um, onimous, or one must, depending on how you pronounce it, it's got to be onimous, surely. Anyway, I I will quote the best argument for Jackson would be if you record on opposite day Yeah, okay. Yeah, interestingly when I asked for who do you think should win? I mean most if not everyone said Jack said Lincoln but not many people wrote why I Think everyone was like well. This is a foregone conclusion Much more on Jackson why Jackson stood when, so this might be able to persuade

you. Got three, and they're chunkier quotes here. Okay, so, for Jackson, Archbishop Gummyman. Greeno. I'm going to attempt an argument for Jackson. Attempt. Are you more likely to tell someone about Lincoln's stories, or about Jackson's fight outside the hotel, or him beating his assassin with a cane, or that Jackson could have started a civil war but he chose not to, and by doing

that sort of protected American democracy. And also, the impact he created the Democratic party. Then there was a pause. Arguably, the same could be said for Lincoln. And then, wow, the first two presidents of the current parties are going head to head. Which, yeah, they are, Lincoln and Jackson are, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's the original Republican versus the original Democrat. So there we go, that's an argument for Jackson. Let's go to Patriarch Dave. The thing that makes Jackson an American, and not just America's most evident monster, was his genuine belief in democracy and the union. I'm not going to argue that he didn't erode things by like pushing the executive office

into the preeminent position it is today by doing bleep like ignoring the Supreme Court, but he railed against the unrepresentative system of the Electoral College and fought against Calhoun's pursuit of the state's rights and nullification. For all the bad Jackson did, he helped secure the political institutions of the country in a big way as soon as the founders were no longer around to hold it up. Bit of a pause?

That said, it's so obviously Lincoln. The most obvious thing there ever was for reasons I don't even need to say and everyone already knows it. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. But thank you, Patriarch Dave, for putting in a good, solid effort for arguing for Jackson. That was pretty good. Slightly undercut his argument right at the end with the last sentence, but you know what? That's fine. It's so easy to do with Jackson, isn't it? Some of the good things, this is all the bad.

Yeah. Okay, and then finally, Gible. Gible. And I will quote, just in case it's not too late, I want to break a lance for Jackson in the upcoming semi-final. Yes, Lincoln is hands down the better, more moral president slash politician. That's why he wins statesmanship by a large margin. Jackson, however, had a more interesting life. He had the hard youth, and it shaped him into a hard man who lived on the frontier.

He was a principled man, even though his principles aren't considered very moral by the 21st century Western standards. In my opinion he had as big an impact on the country as Lincoln by embodying the expansionist drive that characterized America through much of the 19th century, which included the utterly horrible treatment of the Native Americans. He embodied America not just the nice idealistic side but the uglier ambitious side. Which again is a very good argument for why Jackson has got this far. Even though we don't like him. But I think it's time for us to decide, Jamie.

It is, yes. I mean, we've already admitted we've already made up our mind, so do you want to reveal who we decided? No, because I'm going to argue for Jackson. Go on then, go on. Just like one of them said, he's more interesting. If you're going to talk about a president, you're going to mention Jackson's stories, certain particulars of his life and in points of interest. Because Lincoln, you say, yeah, he won the Civil War. Yeah, he did, you know, he did,

you know, he's fighting for ending slavery. And you cannot argue against that. I'm not going to but if you're saying oh here's an interesting story Yeah, Jackson. He beat someone with a cane. He had a duel with people He was shot at and the gun misfired twice and it didn't kill him Mmm, he got shot in the rib and he just carried on with the job. Yeah. Yeah, they're really good stuff That's good stuff that's good stuff in Lincoln's story though it is and this isn't silver screen this is the overall thing this is why interest this is why he uh Jackson won silver screen his story is interesting but I think for overall you've got to take in Lincoln's statesmanship and you've got to dock Jackson heavily for his disgrace

gate. Yes, that is true. I mean, I think it's fair at this point now to just kind of go, yeah, we have a favourite and even though I'm arguing for a particular person... I admire the effort, Jamie, I really do. I tried. No, you did try. He is more interesting. He is more... he had a more interesting life.

He definitely did. This is why he got to the semi-finals. So, well done, Jackson. But let's face it, it's obviously Lincoln. We knew it was Lincoln. If we'd chosen Jackson, I'd have to get on my phone and contact someone right now and save the recording of the finals off. So I'm glad we chose Lincoln. I think it's safe to say everyone saw this outcome coming. Yeah, I mean, it'd be a fool to think not. Which is a shame, because I'd like to say it was a really tight semi-final, both of them, but hey, we had that drama last time. That was a tight semi-final, wasn't it?

It was. It really was. Listening to the edit, I still cannot decide. I still don't know which way I'd go if I re-recorded that now. But yeah. Okay, well, we're calling it for Lincoln then. Well done Lincoln. You are through to our final, which we will be recording in about an hour's time or so.

But before we go, do you want to hear the listener polls? Yeah, that'd be interesting to hear. Wow, you say it'll be interesting to hear. So you're absolutely right, it is interesting to hear, it's just going to be very quick. So our Discord, our Patreons on our Discord have been doing a listener poll. They have agreed with us in every single round. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so like I say, quick.

Yeah. Although what they did do, interestingly, is they not only did a poll on who should go through, but they also said which the best episode was. Oh. Yeah, not who should go through as a president, which one of our episodes they preferred, which I quite liked. So group A with FDR, Grant, Al B. Johnson, and Eisenhower. Almost everyone said that FDR's episodes were the most interesting, which was nice, which is the same as who went through. The next one with Teddy Roosevelt, John Quincy Adams, and Monroe and Obama.

Almost everyone said Teddy's episode was the most interesting, which makes sense. He went through as well. Group C, Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, and Reagan. Almost everyone said Lincoln was the most interesting episode, and he was the one who went through. Yep, turkeys. Group D is the one where things change slightly though because Jackson goes through just with their who should go through. It was very close. They put Madison second. Yeah, they disagreed with us there. But when you go to which was the best episode, Hayes runs away with it.

Hayes gets almost all the results there. And then in the semi-finals, FDR just scrapes through by one vote into the final over Teddy Roosevelt. So our listeners were as divided as we were. And this semi-final, we'll be shocked to learn that Lincoln wins absolutely hands down.

Jackson only got one vote. Everyone else went for Lincoln. There you go. So listener polls are pretty much agreeing with us, which I think is good, Jamie, because that means we're not offending too many people. It means our opinions are reasonable and valid, I would argue. And we're tending to our base, which is good. Yes, excellent. Right, well, in that case, let's call it a day there. Yeah. Thank you very much for listening and next week you will get to tune in to the very last

episode, which we will be recording in about an hour's time. But also we'll be recording more episodes for our Patreon listeners, so if you would like to listen to more about Hamilton and potentially Biden and yeah, Biden won't be a Biden will be a free episode on the feed. Yeah, I'll put that one on afterwards I'm not sure when but I will be getting back into Hamilton quite soon because Yes, I'll be able to say yeah If you want to join our patreon and all the Roman episodes and whiskey episodes, etc, etc all on there as well Yay.

Well, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for downloading us wherever you do download us from. Yes, and all that needs to be said is... Goodbye. Goodbye. This is the BBC with the American Sports. Hello, my name is Winston Featheringway. I am Cuthbert Mountbatten and this is the American Sports on the BBC. And we are so very lucky today because we have our second opportunity, second chance,

to narrate the wrestling. Winston, I am chuffed, chuffed a bit. Can you see how full of chuff I am? Oh, you're spilling chuff right out of your... Oh yes, we've been invited back dear listeners. Same direction, going in the same direction. I assume that's what happened. We've not received any letters, phone calls or anything all week so I assume we're still going. No one's told us not to not to be here so this is for the second week in a row the wrestle I'm very happy to be here today because it is two very well-known individuals both former presidents we've got Abraham Lincoln and Andrew the

hammer Jackson yes this is quite quite the match the two of them two of them brawlers certainly Lincoln he is quite the reach he the two of them, two of them brawlers I hear. Well certainly Lincoln, he is quite the reach, he is a former boxer and he however currently has a wrestling championship and he's in the Hall of Fame which is quite astonishing. Andrew Jackson is more reliable on his pistols and weaponry and of course his legendary cane. Yes I hear, I hear that his cane is specially made and he can remove from his cane another cane so he can then from his cane another cane so he can then have dual canes. Cane squared, we like it.

And as we now look away to the entrance arena we can see Jackson is entering. Oh and the music's on this, his entry music. Oh it didn't take me by surprise this week when soon now I know what to expect. This is glorious. Getting the crowd popped up this music is. Absolutely and Jackson is walking down to the square the wrestling square weighing at about a hundred and forty pounds and carrying his legendary cane and and his pistol sawns asked him for an autograph and Jackson has shot him through the

face so that's that fan is now bleeding from the temple. That poor child. Yes well I mean got to admire it in a way Jackson didn't even break his stride he is now reloading his pistol and he's entering the square that is yes he's there pistols ready he's in his corner of the square and He's in his corner of the square and there's the music for Lincoln. And here he is! He's coming down the aisle. He's at 6 foot 4 inches roughly. I haven't got my measuring tape. They're about 6 foot 4 inches. I don't know what those are. And he is weighing in at about 180 pounds, a slight weight advantage here. And he's wearing a pair of boxing gloves. A pair of boxing gloves, a pair of short short shorts and a top hat and that's it. It looks it's quite the striking image compared

to Jackson's I can only describe it as a Dracula cloak so quite a difference in styles there. The short short shorts are silk. Yes they certainly do ride, that is for sure. Yes. Well as Lincoln enters the square, the referee is entered as well, he's patting the both down to check for weaponry. He is obviously, well quite clearly missing out the pistols and the cane and what looks like numb chucks in the background. Jackson actually handed the referee his pistol so he could lift up his Dracula cloak to prove that there were no pistols underneath He is now being given yes given the pistols back. I'm not entirely sure the referee's done this very well What's almost seems like it's scripted the referee is now checking out Lincoln. He's um inspecting the boxing gloves

Checking for cement eyes and oh he found an axe checking for cement I assume and oh he's found an axe I Lincoln Lincoln an axe tucked into his short shorts a whole Mary Poppins thing going on here Winston how did he get that down there could have caused a mischief good good God Winston right anyway okay well that's Lincoln with no weapon and Jackson with his cane within a cane and two pistols and they are about to start well they are standing in their corners the referee is pointing to the bell and the bell is gone and Jackson immediately points one pistol and oh it's a misfire it's a misfire it's a misfire but he's got to remember

he points the second one Jackson is now Lincoln is now halfway across the square but Jackson fires the other one and it's this fire again to miss fires What are the chances their chances are absolutely huge and Jackson's now reaching for his cane He's unsheathed his cane to find another cane Is getting closer and oh Punches Jackson in the face Jackson crumples crumples to the floor his cranes fall upon him Jackson's out for the count he is Lincoln is now covering him he's got his Jackson's leg in the air it's one

it's two it's three well there we go it was short short but sweet Lincoln is the clear winner here yes Jackson's are standing up shaking Dickinson, walking out. That was strange. I thought he was knocked out. Yes, odd that. What else? Oh well. Anyway, Winston, slight problem. We're not ready to hand back to the network for another couple of minutes. We might have some dead air here.

We need to think of something to say about that match. Well, it's... Hot damn! Oh my god! Who are you guys? Well, I'm Winston Feathering. I'm here to narrate the wrestling. Cuff, Cuff, Batman, Baton, very pleased to meet you.

Did you see the game? Oh damn I did! He was absolutely amazing! He smashed you in the face like a brick wall! Tall squash match! I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. I'm scared, Chad.

That was a scary, scary match. I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. I did! He was absolutely amazing! He smashed you in the face like a brick wall! Total squash match! I'm scared, Chad. That was a scary, scary match. Oh, so damn good! You see, he just punched in the face!

He found out he sold it like a pro! He's like he's been doing this for years! And then linking on the turnbuckle cheering like a mother! Oh my god, Chad! I think they're recording! I think they're on the air! You gotta watch that language! Yes, if you don't mind, we're recording, I think they're on the air, you've got to watch that language. Yes, if you don't mind, we're trying to narrate, this is the BBC. The BBC? Oh, we are on the BBC? Yes, it's quite famous around the world.

Oh, Chad, we're on the BBC. Oh, this is the best thing in the world, this is great, hot damn! Well, we're about to hand back to the network, just a quick summary of the wrestling event in no more than three sentences, no more hand back. Push him right in the face! Hell yeah he did, right in the face! Well there you have it, right in the face. Well this is Winston Feathering, right? And I have been Cuthburn and Baton. And I'm Chad! And I'm Hickory! This has been the BBC with the rest of the Good Evening. Good Evening.