American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Knockouts: The Final

Episode Date: August 24, 2024

Here we are! We reach the final of American Presidents: Totalus Rankium! Only two presidents are left, and only one can win! But this is tricky - so to help us we have invited two genuine Americans on to argue for their president of choice! Jerry from The Presidencies Podcast and Alycia from Civics and Coffee Podcast!  https://www.presidenciespodcast.com/about/ https://www.civicsandcoffee.com/

Welcome to Totalus Rankium, this week, Final FTRV Lincoln. Hello and welcome to American President's Totalus Rankium. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington up until Biden. We have ranked all of the presidents and now we are setting them off against each other and we are in the final, Jamie. We're here in the final. We've been ranking hard and fast.

Yes, yes we have. We are here in the final of American President's Totalus Rankium. Yeah, we are! It has taken six years. It has taken 113 episodes. Wow. Approximately 700,000 words in notes. Psh! But we're at the end. We've looked into every single president, we've given them scores based on our very

subjective guts, and we have whittled them down to the best slash most interesting Americans until we only have two, which are Jamie, FDR Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Abraham Lincoln. Yes. Yes. But there's a problem. Because we've ran out of things to say about them. Because we've done episodes on them and then in the quarterfinals we recapped them

and in the semi-final we talked about the rounds even more. So what do we do now, Jamie? What are we gonna do? Well, it's almost like if we had people that were experts that'd be really helpful, wouldn't it? That would be really, really helpful because this final is going to be a bit different because as we've done a couple of times before I think it's important occasionally just to get in touch with some genuine Americans just to make sure we've not gone off the deep end.

So that is what we're doing today. We have two real Americans who have come on and they're going to fight for their president. We have, back by popular demand, Gerry from the Presidencies podcast. Hello! Hello Gerry! A podcast that covers the presidents in far, far more detail than we ever will, or did. But that is not all. We also have self-confessed history nerd Alicia from Civics and Coffee podcast,

a podcast that covers many aspects of the political history of the United States, episodes on things like Dred Scott or the Gettysburg Address or individual presidents, all sorts of things in there. Hello Alicia. Hello, I guess this is the bad time to tell you that I'm from Canada. Are you from Canada? I'm just kidding. to tell you that I'm from Canada? Are you from Canada? I'm just kidding! I was gonna say I'd be shocked but then me and Jamie have spent six years doing a podcast on American politics and history and we're not American so I suppose anyone can do it.

You did. Happy to be here. You did. I mean I just gave you both a very small introduction there. Do you want to introduce yourselves properly? Alicia if you'd like to be here. I mean, I just gave you both of a small introduction that you want to introduce yourselves properly. Alicia, if you'd like to go ahead. Okay. Well, thank you, Jerry. Um, yes, my name is Alicia and I run the civics and coffee podcast. It's a weekly podcast that dives into the people events and, uh, special moments from United States history.

And the way I like to give my elevator pitch is it's history and the time it takes you to drink a cup of coffee. So I keep all of my episodes pretty short, 15 minutes or less. So it's history for busy people, which is pretty much the antithesis to what Jerry does. Yes. And Jerry, what is the antithesis of that? Well, first of all, I just want to throw out some congratulations. First of all, Alicia, you are celebrating your four year anniversary of podcasting. So congratulations to you.

Rob and Jamie, congratulations on reaching the end of this epic journey. I am planning on reaching this point probably sometime next century, century and a half at some point, because that is why the presidency of the United States is the antithesis of Alicia's amazing podcast and what has been done on Totalus Rankium. I do the deep dive. I want to understand not just the individuals who serve as chief executive, but all the other folks and all the other events that may not be as well known and that had an important role to play in American history and in the history of play in American history and in the history of the American presidency. So I hope that folks, however you want to engage with presidential history, I think you've got a wealth of options and hope you'll check all of us out.

Yeah. Fantastic. How far are you at the moment? So I just reached the burning of Washington. So we are still in the war of 1812. I started this podcast in January of 2017. So if that gives any indication of the deep dive that I've done, that was roughly the same time we started. Yeah. Yeah. But with, with that, it's an amazing journey. It's been so fascinating to be able to do this deep dive, to have so many folks on this journey with me, including the three of you.

I cannot thank all of you enough for being on this journey with me. That's been, I think for any podcascasters that's one of the most amazing things is the other podcasters are so supportive. Well I think on that that really nice note, I think it's time we get into this. So how this is going to work. Alicia has been going into Lincoln recently on her podcast. Not literally. Probably not. So, yeah, she is going to be arguing for Lincoln to win. Gerry will be covering FDR in his podcast in the year 2035. So he will be fighting for FDR.

We're going to keep this fairly loose, but roughly we're going to go through round by round. Alicia and Jerry are going to try and convince Jamie and I who should actually win each round and why their president should be crowned. Oh, crowned what? Probably not king. Probably not crowned. We don't do that in America. No, no, just a cursory. Who wins Totalus Rankium? Okay, so let's start with statesmanship. So, statesmanship. We gave Lincoln 18 on this round and FDR 16 in this round. So, over to you two. You're fighting against each other, convince us who was the best president in traditional terms.

Should we very quickly explain what statesmanship is again, like a recap? Yes, Jamie, you do that right now. Statesmanship is the how good they were as a president, how good they were for the people, how good they were as a statesman. So it's not personal things, it's more sort of policy and presidential process. Am I right, Rob? Yes, I agree. Yes Over to you two fight fight fight. Do you want to do chronologically or do? Because chronologically Lincoln will come first. So that makes sense. Okay

Okay, so statesmanship you have a in Lincoln somebody who was you have a in Lincoln, somebody who was singularly focused on maintaining the union and then once it broke apart, trying to get all of the various sides to come back together. Jerry and I have actually talked about this when I welcomed him to talk about Lincoln on on my show, which is he was a centrist in an era of extremes. And I think in that moment, the country was at this precipice and it needed to make a decision

whether it was gonna kind of keep being divided and maintain this institution of slavery, or if it was going to try to live up to its ideals, which is outlined in the Constitution and in the Declaration of Independence of a we the people and for the people. And so I think in Lincoln, you see the embodiment of somebody who took that message to heart. He was very incremental in trying to get the nation on his side. He knew that he could not just strong arm people to his side, even though it was, you know,

historically speaking, the right side to be on. He knew he had to push people inch by inch. And he knew even in the midst of war, even his reconstruction plan that he announced in 1863, he was saying 10%. That's not a lot of people. He didn't want to convince a majority of people. He just wanted to convince enough people. And he remained magnanimous, right?

Even when the war was clearly turning towards the Union, he was not somebody who was being a raw, raw champion. He was somebody who said, let us be cautious. Let us remind ourselves of who we're dealing with. These are our fellow countrymen. They do not need to be punished. We just need to get to a place where we can kind of come together and reunify as a nation, you know, announcing his plans for the Emancipation Proclamation and saying, hey, you southern states, you guys can avoid this if you just come back and we can kind of

reunify. So always bit by bit. He never caved. He never went backwards, which I think is something to admire. He might have been slow to make those steps forward, but they were always forward. And ultimately, you know, he ushered in the 13th Amendment. He, you know, he helped kind of facilitate the passage of the 13th Amendment. And I think the country is kind of better off for his presidency. kind of better off for his presidency. We got to be in a place of a new America and we had a new founding as many historians have said that that period after the Civil War and Reconstruction that was a new founding. We had a new opportunity to really start fresh and that was really with his leadership.

I mean it's very convincing. This is not voting well for you, Jerry, because this is an audio podcast. So I need to tell the listeners that you spent most of that time nodding. I'm doing the respectable thing in a debate. Right. Okay. You're being polite. You're being polite. Acknowledging my esteemed opponent. I think that it is arguable that likewise the United States after FDR's presidency was completely transformed just like it was after Lincoln. I think that it was a, a new birth of the nation. One of the reasons that both of these folks I think are in the final is because they came to the presidency at a crisis point for FDR, it was the great depression.

It was this economic downturn that was affecting millions and millions and millions of Americans and and people across the world. It was a challenge that nobody had really faced to that point and FDR was able to come and not necessarily have all the answers but create an incubator for solutions to be able to try something new something different to be able to rethink the role of government in the lives of everyday Americans and to rethink the the role of America in the world because he not only faced one challenge but as he went on in his presidency, you have the rise of Hitler, you have the rise of the Japanese Empire in the Pacific, you have this

crisis point globally and FDR yet again has to meet the challenge and not just meet the challenge, not just find the solutions, but also convince the people. Starts with the American people with the Great Depression, but it extends globally in terms of World War II. And he has the means to do so. It's a time of increased technology that one person can speak into a microphone just like we are nowadays and be able to cross the globe with their ideas and their words. FDR had to present a strong front to everybody and the fact that he was able to do that, the fact that he was able to do that,

the fact that he was able to meet these two major challenges and reshaped not just the US but the world. The world post World War II was completely different than it was prior to that war. And for that reason, I think that, you know, as much as I have great esteem and respect for President Lincoln, I think that Franklin Delano Roosevelt, he is the statesman of the American presidency. Two very good arguments. One was fighting against the country splitting up, one was fighting international issues and attacks. So both fighting presidents you could argue, but both very different contexts. It is interesting that we've ended up with the two presidents that were leading the country in the two biggest wars.

Yes. Yeah. But then this round is not about fighting in the wars. It's about being a statesman. Jerry, why shouldn't it be Abraham Lincoln? Because that's what we said in the points. We said Abraham Lincoln wins this round 18 to 16. Why were we wrong? Because FDR not only had to fight Congress and make sure that everything domestically was in place to be able to implement his ideas for domestic policy but also in the wartime effort, he also had to rally allies around the world and dealing with Churchill and Stalin on a regular basis. Good heavens!

Ah, that is true. Alicia, Lincoln didn't have to deal with Hitler. Yeah, or Stalin. Yeah, have you got an argument for that? True. Lincoln was focused on domestic policy, but he did have to deal with making the decisions when you are overseeing the troops, whenever you're deploying men and women overseas or in any kind of military conflict, you know that you're putting American lives on the line. But not only did Lincoln have to understand

that he was sending these largely men into battle, they were going to fight against Americans. And to be in that position and to figure out how you are going to have the ultimate angle, which is get the country back together, while realizing that it might cost American lives to have that strength of constitution, to know that you are making the right call cuz it would have been so easy for him to say you know what it's not worth the loss of life clearly they're gonna do what they're gonna do let's just see no call a spade a spade and we'll go back to what we were doing. go back to what we were doing. But he stayed true to his convictions and said, no, I know that I'm right. I know that we can do this. We're not going to set this precedent. And I know that it's going

to cost American lives. But we need to get together as a country. We need to have a new understanding of what it means to be an American and how do we kind of repair ourselves as a nation? You see I was thinking Roosevelt but then that that was really good because you're right he had to he had to do something that was not easy and he did it anyway because it was the right thing to do as Roosevelt was doing things because he had to do them and he was doing it well. to do. As Roosevelt was doing things because he had to do them and he was doing it well. He did the Depression as well, didn't he? And the New Deal. The New Deal. There's a whole era named after him. Third.

Oh, I can't do it. I'm calling this one a draw. What about you, Jamie? I'm copping out. Do you know what? I'm leaning more towards Lincoln. Okay, right. You're saying Lincoln. I'm calling us Wanna Draw. Okay, well done. Well argued. Very polite both of you. You're both nodding away at each other. No one swore. Yeah. Good. Yeah. We'll see if tempers get frayed in this next round because it is disgrace gate. Disgrace gate. Okay, how disgraceful were they? Well, we said they were the same amount disgraceful. We only said minus two for both of them. Fairly different reasons. Abraham Lincoln, we generally couldn't find much that we thought was disgraceful.

A few things of the time style racism that just does not fit well or sit well with people today. Whereas Roosevelt was more of a fact that he did a lot of good but he has some quite major black marks against him. But he also did a lot of good. So this one might be interesting. Go on then. I don't don't mind who starts. You can either say why your guy is really good or you can just go ahead and slander the other guy however you want to do this. Jerry you start. So I will go ahead and say one black mark against Lincoln is the end of the Dakota War of 1862. So this was a war that was carried on

in the midst of the Civil War. It doesn't get as much attention but he also oversaw what remains to this day, the largest single-day mass execution in American history. And it was of Native peoples. It was, you know, it was a continuation of what had been happening for centuries and generations. And it's also a dark time in Lincoln's presidency. I think also introducing the idea of his suspension of habeas corpus. I think that there are certain wartime measures that he felt were necessitated, but also are prickly in terms of ethics and morals if we're really going to stand in that point of trying to build a better nation it established some potentially difficult precedents for the future.

Okay, that's good. Just occurred to me, Jamie you should have introduced Disgrace Gate as a round at the start of this one again shouldn't you? Yeah Disgrace Gate is where you essentially slander the person you've been building up for the last hour. Pointing out the faults, pointing out the things that they weren't great at and this is more personal so it's in their you know, they may have gone through a messy divorce or they may have cheated a few times or even kept slaves, who knows? It's that kind of thing. Yeah, enjoy.

So my immediate response for Jerry's very astute and correct criticism of Lincoln's treatment of the end of the Dakota War is Lincoln made a bad call and as a result 38 uh Dakota were executed. There is no kind of getting out of that. I would counter though the number that was originally scheduled to be executed was almost 400. And so when you look at it in scale, he intervened and he was again perpetually kind of distracted with this little thing called the Civil War and did not have, I think, the time to really kind of throw his energy into his statemanship and trying to get people on his side. He was also in a very precarious position

because it was a state that was kind of on that border of whether or not they were gonna secede too. And so he knew that he had to do what he could to both keep that state in the union and also maybe not have this massive loss of life. Yeah, I think this is what's... Because there's always an overlap in statesmanship, that we always found. And we never really got a clear dividing line, but I think this sums it up really well,

is that, yes, he did something politically bad, but what was he actually doing at a personal level? Was it that he lost sight of what he should be doing and he got caught up in events and actually he was horrified and tried to pull back and that means he doesn't get as many points in this round. Sorry, he doesn't get as many points taken off him in this round. So yeah, I think that's an important point to make. So that would be my argument for, you know, defending Lincoln's decision. And in terms of my disgrace gate for FDR, you know, we know that he interned Japanese Americans, thousands of them with no, no real evidence of any wrongdoing it was a reaction of fear it was not a sound policy these people were economically devastated for the rest of their lives it took thirty years for the government to kind of acknowledge their misstep He purposefully omitted jobs that were predominantly filled by black Americans in coverage of some of those better economic policies. And so he had a very racist paternalistic attitude towards even this massive New Deal policy that he is still lauded for to this day and

and rightfully so but there was a racist hint to it and I think internment that's pretty disgraceful. It really is. I love Star Trek and one of the characters in that are Sulu, George Takei. He grew up in one of those internment camps and yeah he still remembers it and still talks about it very hatefully and rightly so. Yeah, it's this huge black mark against Roosevelt which I mean I know that at the time he saw it as a necessary evil of war, I'm very much paraphrasing here because I don't have the quote in front of me. Do you know how long he thought that? Did he change his mind on that eventually?

I don't think he did. No. No. And I will say that is definitely a black the Dakota War and the executions it was a bad call and I think that some of it comes from the culture of the time because unfortunately that is one thing that I think y'all have seen evidenced and that we know in studying American history racism is something that has been ingrained in culture and society for far too long and still is and we're still working towards a better way.

I will say in terms of the New Deal, part of it is thinking of the negotiations that had to happen and realizing that as a Democrat in the 1930s, he was having to deal with Southern Democrats because that was the base of the Democratic Party. So he was having to deal with these Southern leaders. There were a lot of things happening behind the scenes. And that's one thing that always amazes me and studying FDR's presidency is just what was happening behind the scenes to try and make things happen without going,

without making it too public so that southern Democrats couldn't get on board and support New Deal legislation, but there was only so far that they could go but he kept trying to push and likewise I think that one of the things and one of the things that's amazing about studying Lincoln and FDR is that I think both of them grew as people they were both flawed men. They both came to this. They had misconceptions. They had racist ideas and they also had people. They surrounded themselves with people who tried to push them. I think that Lincoln had some amazing folks in his cabinet. FDR had Eleanor

try to act as a conscience to him and you see their growth. Neither of them ended up perfect, as none of us end up perfect. And I think that some boundaries were pushed with both of them, respectively. Well, I mean, you started arguing for Lincoln at the end there, Jerry. So, Jamie, what do you think? Have you got a winner for this round? Oh, Lincoln absolutely wins this round. think? Have you got a winner for this round? Oh, Lincoln absolutely wins this round. Just the internment camps for the Japanese population is atrocious and Jerry swung at the end by praising Lincoln so yeah. Stay in your lane, Jerry, come on. I did praise both but I can see that. You're not supposed to be praising both, you're meant to be saying how Lincoln is the worst thing that's ever happened to America right now.

Why isn't Buchanan in this? It would be much easier. Right, okay, well we'll go on to our final round that we will be discussing today which is Silver Screen. So Silver Screen is essentially a round with just how interesting their entire life was. What interesting things did they get up to? What scammers did they go through? What did they go into wars? Did they fight? Or did they just sit behind the desk and write policy? Which could be interesting but isn't as interesting. No Rob, it's never interesting. It's never interesting. No, Rob, it's never interesting.

Well, we really favored Roosevelt in this round. We gave him 19 out of 20. We thought his life story was very interesting. And Lincoln, only 15 out of 20, which seems low. It does. Alicia, you're looking shocked. Horrified. But I... I don't know. Looking at those scores, I think maybe we were slightly harsh to Lincoln and maybe slightly positive to Roosevelt. But I do think Roosevelt's got it at the moment. I think his

personal life story rather than his political. But let's see if you can persuade us. So I think when you think of what we try to perpetuate as the quintessential American story, there is no one. Okay, this is starting. Yeah, there is no one that fits that bill more than Abraham Lincoln. This is a man who was born in a poverty, who had to be self educated, who experienced tragedy upon tragedy upon tragedy.

He lost his mother, he lost his sister, he lost, I mean, he went through it. He was in service to his country in war. He made sure that he was a people's politician in the truest sense of the word. When he was running for office, he was, he went door to door, he ingratiated himself to his neighbors, and he always kind of remained that people's president. And only through his ability to be humble, to be self-deprecating, to kind of win people over with his charm and his humor and his intelligence, did he get people to vote for him? And again, he was voted for,

he didn't get the popular vote, right? If you're thinking about the entire country, he wasn't on the ballots in half of the states. And he didn't have the benefits of technology. He couldn't get on the microphone and share his message. So the fact that he was able to get the votes that he was, and that he had people that he won over, Edwin Stanton was a historically guy who thought this guy is crazy and who is this backwards lawyer, and he won people over. And he was a person who was dedicated to the mission and goals and ethos

of what America tries to be. America has always tried to say, we the people for the people, and he ultimately died in service of his country in order to force the country to become a more perfect union. And I can't think of a more engrossing, engaging, incredibly quintessential American story than Abraham Lincoln. It starts very well. When we did our Roman series, we were always very happy when we had a peasant boy from a village rise up to be the emperor, because that's an exciting story. And it doesn't

really happen that often in American history, any more than it happened in Roman history. So when it does, it is exciting. And the end is exciting as well. He gets assassinated in a theatre at the height of his life, his career, what he's doing. So that is good. But the middle is the middle strong. I would argue it would. You also have his debates with Stephen Douglas. I mean, that he's going to it's like that was a David and Goliath moment. Stephen Douglas is this, you is this renowned orator. He's got presence, he's got gravitas, he's got the country kind of on his side.

He's a well-known established politician. And again, you have this little, I mean, he was not little, but you have this unknown guy just trying to debate and he went round for round. I think they did 21 hours total of debate of over seven debates. And I I think that too he's always had he's a David and Goliath story he is what you think of when you think of overcoming the odds to have the top job in the United States and he's also not a bad looking guy for the 19th century.

There is that, I mean, that's a separate round. We can talk about that afterwards. So, okay, well, I'm hearing you, and as much as I am a history nerd and think the idea, if you're saying, what's the exciting thing he did in the middle of his life is have a political debate, I'm not convinced that that really is the strongest argument.

Jamie, do you even remember the Douglas debates from the episode? Oh, absolutely not. Yeah. But I'm trying I'm trying to picture it because Rob, you always framed it as if you could watch as a like an HBO series or something. So they came on Netflix. Would you watch it? And I think a series about Lincoln, it has its standout bits, but I get the feeling they wouldn't do the episodes

with those debates. But they do the debate episodes. They totally would. This really shows the fact that we're not American, Jeremy, because the Douglas debates are something that you would just never ever come across in this country unless you are a American history nerd who is British. Whereas in America they are held up as a huge, huge thing. So

everyone's heard of them. My bad. Well, why would you, Jamie? Why would you? It's not taught over here. I don't know. And we did the Lincoln episode literally years ago. So, okay, I feel like we've beaten up Lincoln a bit there. Jerry, we're about halfway through talking about how much you like Lincoln. Why is Roosevelt's life story better than Lincoln's? So I'm picturing and thinking

of kind of that mini series. It would have to start for FDR with him in a bed after contracting polio and feeling like his entire life was over. Here was somebody who, yes, he started in a place of wealth and luxury. And he was part of this family that through his cousin became this political icon that he idolized. He wanted to follow in his footsteps. He wanted to follow TR in his footsteps. And he did for a bit.

He became the Assistant Secretary of the Navy just like TR did. He served at a point during a war and in this point it was World War I. He was on the rise. He was seen as somebody who was going to become this political star who was on the ascendancy and then he contracts what then was seen as a childhood disease and he has to rebuild himself physically, emotionally, mentally to try and come back from this. That, to me, is an American story. And you have somebody who achieves so much in that. He, you know, I think of FDR,

and I think that that experience brought a bit of humility to him. It helped him to understand suffering in a way that many of his people in his social standing never did. Yeah I really got that impression when doing the research. It did come across like it fundamentally changed his character from one that wasn't particularly nice to begin with and then it suddenly improves a lot. And that's a story right there, isn't it? That is a story. And then you have the achievement when he becomes president in 1933. So from the Grant presidency on, so that was a period of 64 years. There had only been two Democratic presidents.

The rest had been Republicans. There had only been 16 years of that 64 years that there had been a Democrat as president. He comes into office at this crisis point. The nation seems to be literally falling apart. Nobody knows what's going to happen. There is so much fear and trepidation not just about the future of the nation, but the future of families. Are we going to be able to put food on the table for our children? And you have this man who comes in and takes to the airwaves and gives people confidence and

starts to create an incubator for ideas that become the New Deal that start to help on the road to recovery and then you have an international crisis you have the rise of fascism you have people thinking that the world is coming to an end and again FDR meets the challenge. He is able to rally folks he is able to pull together not only partners domestically but internationally to meet one of the greatest challenges that the world had ever faced. It does help that you could have scenes with Churchill and Stalin in which is always interesting.

Hollywood has already made a couple of movies about Lincoln and has not made any about Franklin. Actually they have made a few. Hollywood. Big Hollywood pictures. Hyde Park on Hudson. Okay one movie. I've not heard of that one. What one's that? Bill Murray. Oh wow. When did this come out? It came out 2000. Oh right. Okay. What was it called again? Hyde Park on Hudson. Hold on. Right. Okay. 2012. Also relatively recently. An earlier film, Sunrise at Campobello. Okay. I mean, they're not as big of films as Lincoln with which is just called Lincoln But I I would argue that it is one of those missed opportunities for Hollywood and especially I can see it being a miniseries like John Adams like Franklin I think it needs to be an extended series you get the right actors in place and oh by the way have I mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt is in the

mix of all of this so yeah I do feel I had to make a serious decision when doing FDR's episode purposely to cut her out because if I kept all her stuff in because she's so amazing she would have taken over so much of the episode. I just wouldn't have been able to cover it I'd already stretched it to three episodes and I felt horrible doing it because she's an amazing woman and deserves Spotlights be on her. So maybe Jamie this is an aspect of FDR that You don't know as much about because we didn't talk about it that much in the episode How did he die again? Was he in a was he in his pool? that you don't know as much about because we didn't talk about it that much in the episode. How did he die again? Was he in his pool? I seem to remember he was in his pool.

He was actually at Warm Springs, Georgia. He was sitting for a portrait and he suffered cerebral hemorrhage, which at the time and also a part of his, which wasn't brought up in disgrace gate, but he also had a long-term extramarital affair. And it was because him and Eleanor, they initially had this love between them. He ended up meeting Lucy Mercer who ended up going off and getting married herself but they fell in love Lucy was actually serving as Eleanor's secretary Eleanor found out about it and it came to a point his mother was even involved in this they They had negotiations and they were like, look, Franklin is going to be ruined politically if he gets a divorce.

What do we do here? And Eleanor agreed to kind of a marriage of convenience. And I think over the years they developed what was an interesting relationship and a partnership. It was never the love that they had. And meanwhile, Lucy was involved, you know, Lucy stayed away for the longest. It was actually one of their children who helped bring Lucy back because she

realized that her father was going down and needed somebody who could just be that comfort to him. And so Lucy was actually there when he passed away. And immediately FDR's aides were like, we've got to get her out of here because Eleanor is coming. Which again, that's something that I mean, horrific in real life, just having to go through that, but drama. And in this round, that's what you're looking for. Assassinated in front of his wife in the theater in protection of the union. His wife, who was barred from being able

to be with her husband, she was robbed of her Victorian wifely duty to be at his bedside when he died because Edwin Stanton said she was too hysterical. So not only was he shot in front of his wife, she was robbed of the opportunity to say goodbye to her husband and thought he would make it until ultimately she was told he died. That's good. That is pretty good.

What do you think Jamie? Who's got this? I think for the life that this person led and the many many things that happened I've got to give it to FDR. You're going to go for FDR? There's just so many things that are fascinating from his early life being a bit of a d*** to that sudden character arc change. The love at a good series, dealing with polio, sorting out a new deal, dealing with World War II, which he's very hesitant to do to start with. There's elements of Churchill from Britain begging him on the phone like, please we need your help. Not that I can do yet, sorry kind of thing. And then the trauma of the Japanese internment.

I would watch a series of that, absolutely. Yeah, it is close though, isn't it? Oh, it's very close. Yeah, I'm copping out, I'm calling it a draw again. Okay, right, well before we come up with our final, final decision, Jamie, very, very briefly, canvas ability, who had the better portrait slash who was better looking? Well, I've already said I thought Lincoln was a pretty decent looking man for the for the period in which he was president. I'm also a big fan of his portrait. I think it's stoic, it captures the fact that he was always thinking

and always being, he was considering the people, he was considering differing opinions, and it captures a gravitas of him. It is a good portrait, isn't it? The way he's sitting, is he getting up? Is he sitting down? You just never know. You never know. But he just has that feeling of movement in it which is always hard to get when you're doing a portrait. It's good. Jerry, FDR, are you going to try and convince us that he was the hottest president?

Uh, no. No. I concede this one. Your heart's not in it, Joey. I mean, I think that, you know, it really comes to, and I think that the, I think that the spirit of Lincoln is one of the things with the portrait. I think that it, I think it is reflected in that. And Lincoln is one of those figures that has loomed large over the nation as this figure who was shot down before his time. But it's not all about the portrait. It's about so much more in this instance I think that FDR could have used a better portrait to really convey his personality to convey

What he brought to the nation. I think that it is it's it's a Shame to him that is not better. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. You have given us our reasons. Jamie and I now need to decide.

Any questions before we do that, Jamie? Yeah. For both of you, like, take off your debating hats. Because we know you were told to do a certain person. Oh, no, I know what you're about to ask, Jamie. We'll do this afterwards, so we're not... Oh, okay. Yeah, because I do want to know what they genuinely think. But if they tell us now, we might be swayed, and this is meant to be our decision.

That's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. So, any other questions? Um, how's the weather? Very warm in California. Yes it's very warm here. It's middle of the night and it's still very warm. We've actually had a nice day here. It's been blazing hot. Then we had a tropical system move in. Then it was blazing hot again and we actually had a nice day But we're going back to blazing hot before the fall

Right, okay, then Jamie we need to do it. We need to make our final decision. Yeah of the whole series. Oh Because you got what you on one hand you got one president that kept the country together or did his best to do that and you got one person that improved it massively domestically and fought Hitler. They both deserve to be in the final as far as I'm concerned. Absolutely. I'm quite happy these two ended up in the final. I genuinely didn't know who I was going to choose into this Okay, but I think I have an idea Do you yes

Interesting I think I'm leaning towards one. Okay, which which doesn't match my prediction interesting, right? So mmm after three Yeah, okay. You ready? Yep. One, two, three. Lincoln. FDR. Oh! Okay.

We split the ticket! Interesting, Jamie, that you say you changed your mind because I think I probably was more leaning towards Roosevelt going into this than Lincoln even though I didn't know who I'd choose. I assumed it would be Lincoln. We both changed our mind. How wedded are you to it being Roosevelt? Are you gonna fight me for this or are you just gonna lay down and give up? I think this deserves a bit of debate. Yeah okay. Go on then, why? Why? Why should it be Roosevelt? He cared about people in the country. So did Lincoln.

Yes, but he also shot his own countrymen in the face with bullets. He didn't do that willingly. But he still did it. And I like the point because you, Alyssa, you made a really good point about the execution that happened in whatever it was. Like that does show restraint as well because you know if you're going to go and just like kill everyone that will negatively impact the future so I think he maybe had that in mind I hope, I don't know, I'm not him, so that's positive about him but I just think FDR, he really supported the country in lots and lots of ways and also

and the thing that does it for me the most is the fact that he was crippled with polio at the time that is that is interesting that is good but also do we really want to put a Roosevelt into when from the rich Roosevelt's and one more point I'd say you wouldn't have a Roosevelt if Lincoln hadn't intervened during the Civil War. You'd be looking at a very different America potentially. True, but I mean you could argue that's true with every previous American President. And you'd also be looking at a very different world if FDR had not been president during World War II. Yeah. All right, Jerry, fine.

I think Lincoln comes across as a nicer person. That's true. And I think they both were about equal in terms of how important they were. I think they were both roughly equal in how interesting they are. I think the one thing that swings it for Lincoln is that he just comes across as a nicer guy. And I quite like the idea of presidents being nice people. It doesn't happen very often. Count on one hand how many people we came across who was like, that's a nice person.

Interesting, good at politics, all sorts of stuff, but nice? I think nice is an important quality. So FDR did get the king of England to eat a hot dog. Oh well now you've said that. Oh. That's just thrown up the table. Oh my goodness. It's not that Roosevelt wasn't a nice person. He just didn't have the folksy stories, did he? Do you know what? There's something you just said that may have switched my mind slightly.

Oh, have I convinced you? What? It's about being the nice guy. Would Lincoln have put a whole group of people in an internment camp? I don't know because this is hypothetical. I don't know, let's pass that on to the experts. Do you think if Lincoln thought it would win the Civil War would he have done that? Do we want to talk about the prisoner camps? Yeah, yeah, that's depressing. I mean war was horrible and people end up doing horrible things during war. And certainly Lincoln did horrible things, as did Roosevelt.

So to keep things positive, I'm going to look at the happier side of things and reasons to give. I'm sticking with my, Lincoln just comes across as a nicer person. And also the fact that he was born poor. Rags to riches. I do love a rags to riches story rather than riches to overcoming personal difficulties, which is a good story. It's just not as good.

I would also interject one of the amazing things and actually Robert McElveen was a professor at the college that I went to, Millsaps College. He actually had a book on the letters from the Great Depression and these were letters that were sent to FDR by folks who just felt that hearing him on the radio, the fireside chats, gave them hope that they could go on. I remember seeing examples of some of those letters. They were good. Black Americans considered Abraham Lincoln the great emancipator. Oh, that is good. And he welcomed Frederick Douglass in the White House. He did do that. He did. Yeah. Okay, Jamie, let's do a count and see where we are.

Okay. Okay. One, two, three, Lincoln. Lincoln. Oh, we're both saying Lincoln. We're both saying Lincoln, yeah. You sound disappointed. No, no, I just, yeah, I think after all the debate and the wrapping up at the end is like actually, yeah, I can see why he's held up in such high esteem. I mean, it is really annoying because I remember telling some people that we were going to do this, It is really annoying because I remember telling some people that we were going to do this, we were going to do all the presidents and I remember being told, well it's just going to be Lincoln isn't it? I said no, no, no, because we're actually going to go into all of them in detail and

find out actually what's, oh it's Lincoln, it is Lincoln. But it's no way, nowhere near as close as I thought it was going to be. Although as a commiseration maybe Franklin D should have his face put on Mount Rushmore or something, that'd be good. That would be good. Well, it's not all sad for FDR because he is our winner in terms of points. He scored 41.25, he scores highest. So he wins the league table, Lincoln wins the playoffs.

So they both get a trophy to go home with. Lincoln is our winner. We don't have any like party poppers. That's a shame. I want a kazoo. Quick play your kazoo. Victory kazoo. How close is your kazoo? There we go. Well done, round of applause for Lincoln. Lincoln is our winner! Thank you so much, you two, for coming on and helping us debate this. Yeah, thank you. Because it was really good having a refresher on some of these things that I hadn't written.

So stuff that I hadn't already thought about. That was good. But let's go to Jamie's question that he wanted to ask earlier, but I cut him off. Yeah, go on, Em. What do you really think? Now we're not strapping you into one side and the other. Ah, I think it's hard to make a decision. So like hats off to you gentlemen for wanting to do this because I have deep reverence for both men. I am a historian of labor welfare bureaucracy. And so Franklin Roosevelt has taken up a large portion of my life for

the better part of two years. And so I to admire the fact that he overcame a physical disability and I appreciate the fact that he brought a woman into his cabinet, Francis Perkins. And so there's just there are definitely things for me, he saved the country from fascism, all these things that make me like him a lot. And I think for me, if I was, you know, gun to the head, I have been, this is a bad metaphor for who I'm about to pick, but I'm canceled. I have to go with Lincoln in my opinion, because I just think of in history, I can't help but think of the what if right. And what if he wasn't elected? What if somebody else was in that seat? And what would have happened to the country had we had a different person?

I think in many, many ways, Lincoln was the right man at the right moment for the right job. And you got three amendments that you can pretty much tie to him and his efforts and what he was trying to do. And I think there's not a lot of presidents that can, can claim to that. And yeah, just the Civil War for me is, is something that stands out as, as his leadership really helped us kind of dial it back and things could have gone way off the rails had he not been the one at the head of the table. There are not many times in history where a leader is so obviously the right person in the right place at the right time. The 1,500 years of Roman residents that we covered, sorry, emperors that we covered, just hardly ever happens. You've either got a really competent guy in at a time of plenty, so it's fine, or idiots when the crisis comes along. And to have someone step up at that point is very good.

What about you, Jerry? I think I can guess. So whenever people ask me who is my top president and I do preface that with it's like in what capacity, what do you mean by that? Because there are different categories that the answer may be a little different, but if you just had to pick one Lincoln. And I will say, and part of what for me puts Lincoln over the top versus FDR. FDR was faced with crises like no other president before, and hopefully not in our lifetime will ever have to face. And he met the challenge. It was also,

he came to it with this idea of just building the right team. And while that is important in leadership, and I think that was a part of Lincoln as well, I think that Lincoln took a little more of the impetus of personal development, of trying to understand the situation in terms of politics, in terms of military tactics. I think he took it upon himself and he made it very personal.

He also made a point of understanding that these were people that he was sending potentially to their deaths, that the fate of the nation really rested on him. I think that FDR came with a certain confidence that when you're from a certain socioeconomic status it's easier to do. I think that Lincoln understood a bit more of what was happening on the ground and understood the importance of it. And likewise, to Alicia's point, as she argued so eloquently, this is an American story of rising from more humble beginnings and getting to one of the highest places in the nation and facing a major challenge that there really wasn't anybody else that was equipped to handle it in the same way he did. Did he make

mistakes? Yes. Anybody would. And the nation is still here. The nation is still together. So what you're both saying is that we were right. Yes, you made a good call. That is good to know. I'm glad that we have. I think every time we've done this, like, touching base with some genuine Americans, Jamie, I think they've always agreed with us. They're either very polite people over there in

America or we're getting it right. I think they've always agreed with us. They're either very polite people over there in America or we're getting it right. I think they're very polite. Maybe it's both, who knows. I was determined to do the lawyer's defense for FDR. You mostly did a very good job apart from occasionally you just started talking about how good Lincoln was. Right, well thank you so much both of you. It has been a pleasure to have you on. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah, it's made this decision feel more solid and real in my head, rather than just flipping a coin, which is what it kind of felt like, because I could not choose between the two. But there we go, we've done it Abraham Lincoln is our winner for American

President's Totalus Rankium. Thank you listeners for all the support that you have given us throughout the whole series thank you especially to our patreons all of you on the discord I've made this a pleasure to do and anything else Jeremy? No but we'll be back soon. Oh we will be back soon we are busy in in the background working on Pirates Totalus Rankium at the moment, so that will be coming out relatively soon. I'm not going to put a time limit on it. But we will definitely be finishing our Hamilton series for our Patreons, and Biden will be getting a bonus episode at some point now,

but we know he's definitely coming to the end of his presidency soon. So who knows if he scores like so highly we need to redo the the final maybe we'll have to do that. Who knows? Let's not prejudge. So before we go, Alicia and Jerry where can we find you and your podcasts? Sure yes you can find me the old-fashioned way now in the year 2024 which is through my website at www.Civicsandcoffee.com and I'm on all most of the social media apps so Instagram, Blue Sky, Threads. Look for either CivicsPod or Civics and Coffee. It's one of the two but that's why I always say just check out the website civicsandcoffee.com. Great and likewise the Presidencies Podcast can be found at PresidenciesPodcast.com. I'm on all the major social media platforms, on Facebook as Presidencies, on the formerly

known as Twitter as Presidencies89, on Instagram threads as Presidencies Podcast, and you can just search for the Presidencies of the the United States anywhere fine podcasts can be found. Brilliant, thank you. Fantastic. Okay then Jamie, we're done. We're done. That was a quick six years, wasn't it? Yeah, flew by. Yeah.

And all that needs to be said is... Goodbye. Goodbye. American Ball, American Ball, American Ball, Coyote Sports. And welcome to the 354th American Ball here in Tampa, Florida. I'm Chad. And I'm Hickory. And what do we have here today Chad? It's something incredibly exciting.

We have our fight of the America Ball. America Ball. America Ball. Sponsored by 7-Eleven. Oh Chad, I get so excited this time of the year. Well ever since the NFL went out of business, it's been dominating the American sports field and the world for years. And we've got two teams this year. That's right Chad, two teams. Two teams go head to head. They face eyeball to eyeball.

They're gonna smash each other in the face until one of them is declared legally dead, we have got Lincoln's top hats versus... And FDR's firesides! But that's not all, folks. We're joined by two special guest announcers today. That's right, champ! Straight from the BBFC, we have two guest commentators. We met them last week up at the wrestle, and they are two genuine British Japs. And they're here to see some good old-fashioned American culture. So here we've got Cuthburg Mount Badham. Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here at the America Ball. Very exciting. And of course we've got to win some feathering way.

Oh yes, nice to see you. very very spectacular i love the uh i love the eagles yes the um the jets going overhead make it all very exciting yes i feel very patriotic is that part of halftime halftime there's no half time in america ball anyway let's get into our team announcements so in fdrst we've got e've got Eisenhower, Franklin D, Grant, B Johnson, Barack Obama, J.Q. Adams, James Monroe and Mr. Theodore Roosevelt. That's right, Theodore Roosevelt backing up his relative after quite an injury he sustained last week. He got shot in the head, but it bounced right off. Well, he's an American. That's right. And then of course we've got Lincoln.

Lincoln's top hats. Obviously he is backed up by none other than Washington, Reagan, Jefferson, Hayes, Jackson, and J.F. Kennedy. And let's not forget Madison. Although everyone does. He's just not a good America ball player. Nope, broke his leg 15 times last season. Anyway, both teams are lining up in their diamond formation. That's right, the classic diamond formation for the two of them here.

We've got Lincoln has indicated that Washington should be covering fullback whereas Reagan's going straight on to first base. And it's interesting that Barack Obama is defending the basketball nets at the end of the pitch and at the same time, gripping that hockey stick for his damn life. That's right, I mean, classic formations

for the start for America Ball here. I don't think anyone's surprised by this. No surprise at all, classic position. Rod, the referee is standing in the center with his rifle pointed in the air. The eagle has landed and we're off! That's right Chad, we're off! It's all go! Lincoln straight away picks up the football and has thrown it towards Reagan who hits it with the baseball bat. The football is heading right towards the net and he hasn't quite gone

but it has been grabbed by JQA who is now holding his hands and dribbling with his feet back across the field. Oh and Hayes Hayes has tackled JQA to the ground. That looked painful Chad. He's attempting a pin position but the referee cannot get there in time. JQA kicks out. JQA is still going but JFK, JFK has kicked him in the shins with his ice hockey boots. JQA slams down on the floor, clutching those shins.

But with the sharpness of the blade, his foot has almost been cut off. But that's okay, he's wearing a helmet. It's rough play, but JFK now has the ball and he is dribbling it towards the net and he's got to go for a three point here. He's grabbing the ball he's now picking it up he's running with it he's heading towards the touchdown zone and he's got a home run. Oh it's a home run as it helps. He's left it with dust there he's looking furious but that that is one and three fifths points to the Lincolnian team. Oh it's a good start for them. Lincoln looking very happy there. And the game is now being reset.

We've got Ulysses S. Grant throwing the second pitch of the game. And it's a strike one for Jefferson. Oh, he's gonna be furious with that strike, but fortunately standing just behind Jefferson was Reagan. Reagan has caught the ball and... He's now jumping onto his surfboard. Well, he caught that wave from nowhere! No one was expecting that wave and that's taken him at least halfway across the diamond or three fourths of the way across the pitch.

He's absolutely hanging ten right now with the football in his mouth and in his foot. And he's heading towards the end zone and he's put it through the net! That's another two and one quarter point. The Lincoln Top Hat is doing very well. It's doing very well but straight away FDR has grabbed the puck and has straight away slammed it into fifth gear. And he takes that corner like a complete champ. Look at it go! And that's gotta be, yes that's right, that is a new record for the lap. That's gonna score him five points, five points. FDR must be feeling very proud of himself, his team are looking very happy with their captain.

And as we take a break, this game is sponsored by Gatorade. What the sound of that eagle landing? It's time for the third half. Lyndon B. Johnson has grabbed the lacrosse stick. He's put the puck into the lacrosse stick and he's now running across the field. That's right, it's strong performance from LBJ here, but who's this coming up to tackle him from the rear? It's none other than Jefferson. Jefferson's got a mean look on his face there.

He runs into his side and brings him down on the floor. Jefferson pulls out a steel chair, smashes Johnson in the face. He's out for the count. He's covering him, the referee's there. One, two, oh he kicked out, he kicked out just in the nick of time. That was so close to FDR's team getting into the lead there, but fortunately for Lincoln, Jefferson proves that he is far too nimble, and Jefferson is up immediately and he's now dribbling that baseball all the way down the pitch. He passes to Hayes, Hayes to Jackson, Jackson to Lincoln and this could

be decisive if Lincoln can score here. It puts him onto the fourth pitch down. Barack Obama's grabbed his hockey stick, he's raising in the air and he deflects the baseball right across the Dodge Viper and into the ocean. Well that's gotta be very frustrating for Lincoln there because he almost America-balled and as we all know that's an automatic win. So Theodore Roosevelt has grabbed the basketball with both hands and he's got his golf club out.

It looks like a nine iron. He's leading it down, he's sliding it up, and he smacked it and... Oh the rest of the field go absolutely silent. Everyone has stopped to watch this as it majestically sails through the air. And he's got it! He's got a birdie! That is quite fantastic! Oh that pass was... I don't need to tell you, Chad. That brings us to death level with Washington on 15 and two quarters and Roosevelt on 12. It is a dead heat right now. It could go either way. Lincoln is looking really stressed but he's grabbed his football. He's grabbed the soccer ball. He's grabbed the baseball. He's grabbed the lacrosse ball. Oh my god, Chad.

He's grabbed the golf ball. Chad, you know what he's about to do? I do. He's wrapping up with a gaffer tape. He's trapping them all together. Chad! He's about to America ball. He's about up with a gaffer tape. He's trapping them all together. Jed, Jed, he's about to America ball. He's about to America ball. He's standing on the race track now. He's about to take the last 100 meters. He's gonna do it Jed, he's gonna America ball. The whole crowd have gotten wild.

Everyone's standing watching him. This is gonna be an unprecedentedly early America ball. All of those balls take together. Where are they going Jed? They're're going he's standing on the start line of the hundred meters and the athletics run and the gun is off he's running down the track he's running he's running Chad he's running he's being chased he's in the thing he's jumped over the first hurdle he keeps going oh my god he's grabbed the pole and he's over he's pole vaulted he's managed to get over that Roosevelt can't catch him this is an insane little spin he's crazy he keeps going forward and he's he's over, he's pole-voted, he's managed to get over that, Roosevelt can't catch him, this is an insane equalizer

He's crazy, he keeps going forward and he's achieved the limbo, he's ball-stepped, not touched the limbo beam at all, he keeps going That's amazing, oh he skims over that sandpit and oh my goodness, that javelin barely even touched him, this is amazing, he's passed the javelins And he's moving up to beer pong table, all those red cups full of liquor and he gets it in! That's one, and there's another, and that's three, and he moves on. This is insane, Jam. I don't think I've ever seen anyone America Ball so hard. He keeps running, he keeps running. He's looking for that golf ball home. This is it, Jam. He's only got one more thing left to do. He's just got to get all the balls in the golf hole. That's it, and he's America Ball. Do you think he can do this? Long can only hope. He's eyeing it up. He's eyeing it up. He's staring. He's thinking. He's planning. He's preparing.

And he's easing them in. And he's done it. It's there, champ. It's there. All those balls in such an impossibly strong place! That is America Ball! And that means the Lincoln Top Hats are our winners! He looks excited! He looks overjoyed! He is America Ball, Chad! He is the absolute definition! And we can see FDR's team lining up to do a guard of honor for him!

Oh, and they're all cheering him on! I've got a tear in my eye, chap. This has been... this has been America Ball. This has been the most America Ball America Ball has ever been. Well, thank you very much dear listeners for listening to America Ball, and I do apologize, I guess, for barely got a word in. Oh, I damn, yeah! What, what, what did you think of America, Bell? I feel like I've been living in a haze the past five years. Not really, if I'm honest, not really understanding the American sports,

but watching this, it all makes sense. It's like a veil has been lifted from my eyes, and I now truly understand not just American sport, nay, America. Well thanks for watching guys, it's been great to have you here and thank you to our sponsors, we Gatorade, 7-Eleven and the Coyote Sports. Kaka and Kaka, that's right, well that's it for all of America Ball today. I hope you folks join us next year where America Ball will be even more America. Hot damn!

I'm Chad. And I've been Hickory. And this has been America Ball. Yee-haw!