American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - Semi Final I

Episode Date: August 10, 2024

This week we look at which is the best/most interesting political Party in US history. But most importantly we decide who goes through to the final! 

Welcome to Totalus Rankium, this week's semi-final one. Hello and welcome to American President's Totalitarium, I am Jamie. And I'm Robb ranking all of the presidents from Washington up until Biden. And this is the first of the semi-finals, Jamie. Yeah it is. It is. This is where we decide who goes through to the final and we only have one question. Is it Roosevelt? Because that's right, We have a Roosevelt off!

Who'd have thought it? Roosevelt or Roosevelt, who's your favourite flavour? But before we go into that, we have been in these group episodes, been going over the different rounds, but we're not going to go over the bonus rounds because they're just small little bonus numbers, so I don't think we really need to deal with that. And we're going to save talking about total scores until the very final So we've got a couple of episodes where I wondered what to do Well, here's what we're gonna do something I thought would be interesting

Statistically in semi-final one. We're going to have a look at the parties who was the best or most interesting Political party in American history. Oh, that sounds interesting and then next semi-final we're gonna look into the errors of Oh, that sounds interesting. And then next semifinal we're gonna look into the eras of American history So which era had the best politicians the worst politicians, etc? So yeah, I thought that might be interesting We're splitting a couple of different ways. So let's go into a party time Okay, right. So what political party is best slash most interesting now? It's a slightly hard thing to do this, partly because what does best mean? I mean, it's subjective, isn't it? It's, yeah.

But that's what this podcast is all about. We're not saying that they're the best, we're just generally looking at things. So we're going to use our rams to cover it. It makes the most sense, doesn't it? But also, the reason why this is difficult is Republicans and Democrats have both significantly changed over time. Yes, they have. So let's choose one. Let's choose the Republicans, for example. is Republicans and Democrats have both significantly changed over time. Yes they have.

Let's choose one, let's choose the Republicans for example. They're very different now to what they were 50 years ago and that was very different to 150 years ago. But we're going to ignore that. If you were a Democrat at the start, you're a Democrat now, you're in the same party, it's the Democrat party. Yeah. It just keeps things simple, doesn't it?

We can talk about errors next time but you might be thinking parties are more than two what other parties were there there's one you mentioned was it Madison he was part of the democratic something yes the Democrat well let's go through in chronological order a quick very very quick one sentence recap of what the different parties are in the American political system. So, first of all, we have the Federalists. Starting with Alexander Hamilton, Federalists believed in an overarching federal state.

They believed in banks, an industry, a growing country which would rival their British allies. They tended to be very friendly with the British. I can say it's very much modeled on the British politics at the time. Yes, exactly. Now, the only official Federalist President is John Adams. That's it. So it's just him in this group. But actually, no, because I'm bending the rules slightly. I am going to include George Washington in this group. George Washington was obviously a Federalist. He believed in all the Federalist ideas, he sided with Hamilton in most things, but he felt that

it was his job to officially remain neutral to set up a precedent of there being no political parties, which failed. If he'd known how much it was going to fail, as in he was the only one who was going to claim not to be of the party, he probably would have just said, yeah, I'm a Federalist. So, we're saying the Federalist party is Washington and John Adams. Tiny little party for those two. But two big names. Two big names. Next up is the First Republican Party, which have become known as the Democratic Republicans, to save confusion. They started as the anti-Hamilton movement. Hated that musical they did. You

would be a democratic republican, for example, I would be a federalist. But I've not seen it, I'm apolitical in that sense. Oh, you say this but you've never shown any interest in watching it. I showed a bit of interest, just not enough to watch it. Fair enough. Anyway, anti-federalist movement, it was made up of Jefferson, Monroe, Madison and various others but obviously they're the big names. They're much closer to France than Britain. They saw states as far more important than federal government. They saw a future for the country of small

towns, farming communities, militias that would spring up and defend themselves. So very different vision. They have four presidents. Jefferson, Monroe, Madison, and the only non-founding father, John Quincy Adams. The Democratic Republicans do so well, they actually wipe out the Federalists. But that led to infighting, and soon enough a new party sprung up. And that was the Democrats, started by Van Buren and Andrew Jackson. This started as an anti-bank, pro-slavery in the South, but not so much in the North.

That was some dividing lines that obviously would only get worse. They're pro-expansionalist. Now, obviously the Democrats, as I said earlier, change over time in the 1900s. They came out of the Gilded Age looking for reform as did the Republicans and the Democrats went in a progressive direction. In the 1960s it put itself firmly behind the civil rights movement which again changed the image of the party and the Democrats now are generally a centralist party they are socially progressive, economically centre-right, and that's roughly where the Democrats are.

So they're not extreme left-wing, as they're sometimes called? No, no, it just really confuses me, but I think that's a case of being terminally online and only interested in US politics. Would you ever consider the Democrats to be extremely left-wing? If you plunked the Democrats in this country, they would be seen as slightly right of center. Yeah. Anyway, there are 16 Democrats in total, but that includes Biden, so we're going to say

there are 15 Democrats in total. The top three, because I'm not going to mention all of them, are, according to us using their total score, third place was Obama, second place was John F Kennedy and first place obviously is our winner of FDR. So, surprise me, Obama got to third place there because Obama didn't do hugely well but actually it turned out he is the third best Democrat. There were a lot of bad Democrats. That's why I made a weird sound. Yeah, yeah, I made that sound when I was compiling the list. Anyway, in the early days of the Democrats, those in the Democratic

Republican Party who did not like the Democrats, and also a whole bunch of Federalists who no longer had a home, sort of merged and became a new political party. So they were seeing a shift here. So the Democratic Republicans go away and we see the rise of the Whigs. The Whigs are pro-federal, they are pro-bank, they're less expansionist than the Democrats. It's a bit too simplistic to say that they are the new Federalist party, but they're sort of. They are also the unluckiest of the parties. Oh, bless. Yes, they have three or four presidents depending on how you count them. You had Harrison and Taylor, the only two Whig presidents who were elected

into office, and both of them die shortly into their terms. So then their vice presidents take over and neither of them were very good. Tyler was so bad he was thrown out the party. So we are not going to count him. We're going to say Tyler is a non-party president because the the wicks didn't want him in the end. So we are only counting Taylor, William Harrison and Fillmore as the only wicks. So it's only three there. Anyways, the wicks soon fell apart due to them being very unlucky and dead. This led a vacuum for the final party to come along. This is obviously the other major one, the Republican Party.

The Grand Old Party. The Grand Old Party, starting as an anti-slavery party, it became more and more conservative throughout the Gilded Age. As the Democrats put themselves in alignment with the Civil Rights Movement, the Republicans moved into that vacuum and pivoted so the party could pick up that Southern support that the Democrats were losing. By the 1980s, the Republicans had swung fairly right-wing and conservative. Currently, they are socially populist and far right. Going for a change, are the Republicans. Yeah, scary.

Yeah, but who knows? Who knows where the future is? A lot will depend on the outcome of this next election, on whether the MAGA movement collapses or whether it is further emboldened. But that's for another discussion of another day. Now, despite not being the oldest party in America, they do have the most presidents with a total of 19. Wow. Yeah, they're top three. An impressive bunch.

We've got Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's a recap of the parties, so you know who I'm talking about. All I'm gonna do now is tell you who did best in which round. But what I'm gonna do, instead of comparing all five with each other, we're gonna compare the three small parties with each other, and then we'll do a look at Democrats versus Republicans because I think that's more interesting.

So we'll start with Federalist Democratic Republicans and WICs. Well, statesmanship. Who had the best presidents? According to us, the very worst presidents came from the WIC party with an average score of 3.3 in this round. Wow. Yeah. They kept dying. If we had included Tyler, this only would have gone down. But they chucked him out of

the party. What's that Roman phrase? Danato memoriae? Yeah. Erase them from American history. Never happened. It's fine. Yeah, poor WICs. They do not do well here. And it's not really their fault, they just got really unlucky. Anyway, then second place is the Federalists. They got an impressive 12, above average. Well done. But the Democratic Republicans storm this, an average of 15.75. So we're saying that those Democratic Republicans were pretty good as presidents. It helps that they're all a

bunch of founding fathers and you get, yeah, you definitely get a bit of a kudos for that. But then arguably so were the Federalists. So we're saying that Democratic Republicans had the best presidents out of these. Who were the most disgraceful though? Well, the least disgraceful were the Federalists. Washington and John Adams with only an average of minus four, not too bad. Not too far behind them, with an average of minus 5.3 is the Whigs. But according to us, the most disgraceful of the early parties were the Democratic Republicans with an average of minus 7.3. Slavery? Yeah. Is it the amount of people that would change the or make the average

more accurate? Because you've got less people you get less of... The more people you've got the more accurate your average. Yeah this is why I'm doing Democrats and Republicans separately because they've got a big data pool for this. This is a bit skewed because the Whigs only have three, Federalists only have two, the Democratic Republicans only have four. So yeah, this data's a bit... But anyway, interestingly, we're saying the Democratic Republicans had the best presidents and we're also saying they were the most disgraceful. That's good. Next, Silver Screen, who was the most interesting? Well, the Whigs don't do well here, with an average of only 9.6. They have the worst silver screen across all five parties. They just died.

It's just not that interesting. But nice to see that they're almost at half marks. We obviously found all of this interesting if our lowest scores were an average of 9.6. Federalists do much better with a score of 14.5. But we're saying that the most interesting party were the Democratic Republicans with 16 average. Can you see a see a pattern here? Yeah. Forming. Yeah these Democratic Republicans they're storming it but

were they good-lookers? Slash did someone do a good painting? Hmm. Well yes because the Democratic Republicans win this round as well with an average score of 3.13. The Wigs were close behind, with an average score of 3 dead on. And the Federalists, oh, only 2.5. Aww. Yeah, not as good. Then, total score. This is slightly embarrassing for the Wigs. They got an average of 11.67, their total score. They came in third.

The Federalists come in second, with an average of 28.00, which is good compared to pretty much everyone else apart from the Democratic Republicans who again come out on top with an average of 30.60. So not beating the Federalists by that much but there's definitely a clear victory there. And then the last thing we need to talk about is AmeriCAN. How many AmeriCANS did they get?, the Whigs got 0% Americans. None of them got it out of three presidents. The Federalists, 50% of them got American. We didn't give it to John Adams.

We did not give it to John Adams, which some people were not happy about. A lot of people went, yeah, fair enough. Democratic Republicans do much, much much much better. 100% American rate. Four out of four presidents got it. So that's really interesting so I never I didn't realize we were so biased. Well the interesting thing is politically if I imagined and transported myself into the era I probably would have been supporting Federalists and Whigs in roughly this time. There were some things about both parties I disagreed with, but

if I looked at them and what they were saying about things, I probably would have been a Whig supporter over a Democratic Republican, that's for sure, or a Democrat at the time, but according to us they just don't score as highly. Again, they got very unlucky. But yeah, so there we go. Democratic Republicans, according to us, are clearly the best slash most interesting party of the early parties. However, what about the modern parties? Who is the best out of Democrats and Republicans officially?

Everyone online can stop debating after we've done this. Yeah. Okay, statesmanship. Who overall has had the best presidents? Who do you think? I'm going to say Republican. Democrats have 9.2 average. Republicans 8.2. Oh wow, very close. Very, very close between them. You have obviously some highs in both. You've got Abraham Lincoln, you've got FDR for example, but you've also got some lows, absolute wrong-uns in both. Especially in the Gilded Age for example. So yeah, because we have 15 presidents in the Democrats

and 19 in the Republicans, like you say, this is a better, better, more reliable average. Okay, how disgraceful were they? they what's your prediction I think it's gonna be very similar again because you've got the whole slavery Civil War thing but then you've got the modern Republicans and you got JFK as well he was a bit disgraceful well it's not close actually oh isn't it there's a clear difference in this one Democrats an average of minus 10.1 Republicans an average of minus 10.1. Republicans, an average of minus 6.6. Wow. Yeah, if you go back right to the start, on average, Republicans have been less disgraceful. Well. Yeah. Now, I must say that

modern Republicans have definitely put a dent in that. The Republicans would have done better. We are saying that the modern Republicans did worse. Equally, the early Democrats really put a hamper because they were quite pro-slavery for a while and that was not a good look. So, yes, so there we go. On average, if you squish time together and you want to vote for someone who's not a wrong-run, vote Republican is what we're saying silver screen oh I I think this will be close because a lot of Civil War stuff a lot of World War two stuff a lot of World War one stuff yeah absolutely boring people oh okay it is close it is because you're right both sides have

interesting people and boring people and but who is the winner well Democrats got an average of 11.3 Republicans Republicans an average of 10.7. So only half a mark between them there, so very close. But we are saying that the Democrats just are the more interesting of the parties, if you take into account the whole life. Who's more sexy? Slash who had a better painting? Oh, I think Democrats are this one. No, no, it's a bit more clear here. Democrats 2.55, Republicans 3.18, making them the sexiest looking party out of all five parties.

They come top of all. Yeah, it's one of the few times the Democratic Republicans don't win something was this one. Okay and total score who do you think gets the best average total score? It's been pretty it's been neck-and-neck the entire time hasn't it? It's been fairly close yeah. I'm gonna say Republicans. Republicans do win it they get 18.21 compared to Democrats 15.75. Three marks in it. So fairly clear victory there but just, 15 and 18 compared to the Federalist 28 and the Democratic Republicans 30. But we'll talk about eras next time. So, last thing we talk about is American winners. Which party do you think produced the most Americans?

Well, because there were more Republican presidents, probably Republican. No. Really? They both produced six apiece. Oh, okay. Yeah, so they draw, but of course if you take into the percentage, it's actually the Democrats that win this. 40% of Democrats were American and 31% were Republican. Sorry, 41% of Republicans had Americans, sorry, I should say. So I would argue the two parties come out looking pretty similar if you take into account

their whole history there. That, yeah, because that's the interesting thing with seesawing, isn't it? Yeah, so there you go. That was a quick look at the parties, which is why I like doing this. Getting all this data, you can just find out different weird bits of information about what we think, rather than just what our gut feeling is. Yeah. Okay, but that's just our warm-up, Jeremy. We need to talk about who is going through.

Roosevelt, the Roosevelt. Okay, Theodore Roosevelt versus Franklin D. Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt scored a total of 38.5 and he was third in our total rankings. Franklin D. Roosevelt scored 41.25 and was first in our overall rankings. We have a pair of good presidents here who are going to be hard to beat. This could go either way. Yeah, in my head had something in my head but then I got FDR mixed up with Reagan for most of the morning. Interesting!

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Fair enough. Well, fortunately I'm gonna have a quick recap of each round so then we can make a decision. So first of all let's go into statesmanship. Statesmanship. So, statesmanship. Theodore Roosevelt scored 16.

Franklin D. Roosevelt scored 16. We judged them exactly the same in this round. Teddy impressed us most with his fighting of corruption. The Gilded Age was bad, and Teddy attempted to do something about that, not just as president, but throughout his career. He did this even when it made him unpopular, because he just saw it as the right thing to do. He also got points from us for mediating a peace treaty between Russia and Japan. That was nice of him. However, we did criticize him for the invasion of Colombia. This was just a blatant land grab for America.

I think the 16 was down to him not doing loads, but what he did do was good. And that was rare for the time, so we were impressed. As for FDR, slightly different type of 16, he was undoubtedly a very good president. He's worthy of being called one of the best presidents the United States has ever had. The New Deal defines the era of politics and results in the average person presidents the United States has ever had. The New Deal defines the era of politics and results in the average person in the United States being more secure and happier. He listened to advice, he negotiated the United States through the Great Depression, and then was a strong wartime leader during the largest war in history. I mean, all of this is fantastic

stuff. So why didn't he score 19 or 20? Because of a couple of fairly major black marks, the main one being the concentration camps set up to detain American citizens during the war. He got rightly marked down for that. This is blatant racism that led to these camps being suggested, and FDR just went along with it, seeing them as unfortunately necessary. The other criticism we gave him was running for four terms. Now, it happened to work out fine here because he wasn't a very good president, and then he died so he didn't just keep going and going.

But it does set a dangerous precedent, you could argue. And we did argue that. Although whilst I was writing this earlier on today, it did occur to me. We live in a country that has no fixed term limits and it's never bothered me once. Never once have I even vaguely thought, oh dear, what if the Prime Minister tries to cling on to power. It just is unbelievable to think in this country. Yeah, I mean the longest Prime Minister we've had has been what, 12 years? Thatcher was 10, wasn't she?

In modern politics it's Thatcher. Blair was. Blair was just below her. I think Thatcher was coming up to 12 and Blair was just below that. No, maybe it was 11. Anyway, we're talking roughly just over a decade for Blair and Thatcher. Yeah, but you didn't see them going on forever. It's like their time has come now. So maybe we're overplaying the term limit thing, but maybe not. Anyway, that's what we said for statesmanship. Quick recap on both. Just in this round alone, gut feeling, who do you think's got it?

Well, looking at my notes, we put Franklin D as being in fifth for statesmanship and Teddy as sixth. Oh, yes, of course, we had this debate. Thank you, Jamie, for keeping a note of that. It didn't even occur. Well, there we go. We've already done this. Jamie, you're a genius.

Don't edit that out. Don't edit that out. Please. We have five Rankian points yeah we don't need to discuss this we've already discussed it yeah absolutely right yeah so Franklin Franklin's ahead here I agree with that I think Franklin just it's very close we scored them 16 apiece but yeah I think if just this round alone I think he's got it okay it's low on accounts, but FDR just has this one.

It was minus two compared to Teddy's minus six. Now, Teddy was mostly marked down for his racism. He believed that the white race was inherently superior to others. There's no getting round the fact that he believed that. He did. He gets off the hook a lot, because it's seen as the age he was in and he was one of these enlightened racists of the time. No such thing!

Yeah. The only redeeming thing is that despite him thinking this, he did vocally say that no civilization should be treated to any other and he was an advocate for races being treated equally. There was just this horrible racist caveat of even though we all know they're not. It's a bit like Gandhi. A bit like a lot of people of the time. This very much is a this is what everyone obviously not everyone but it's what a lot of people thought. There are different levels of racism there are different nuances. The man was a racist yeah but he wasn't going out lynching black people yeah anyway we had this sort of conversation and we marked him down for it the other thing major thing we picked up on is the

fact that he shot a dog because he was dumped oh yes yeah that's not on no last time I happened in American history she got kicked out or something, didn't she? Yeah. She's running for something. Yeah, running for Trump's Vice President. That was it, yeah. Kirsty Noem, yeah. I just think more people need to realise that Teddy Roosevelt shot a duck because he was

annoyed one day. Yeah, you don't do that. You don't do that and... Shoot your butler or something, not your duck. Come on now um i mean i suppose your only defense could be i i'm guessing it was a rare 24 hours that went by that teddy roosevelt was not killing at least some kind of animal and shoving it in his pocket the guy just killed animals relentlessly he was constantly killing animals so he probably didn't see it as that much different. But a dog seems much more horrific to us because obviously dogs are our friends.

Yeah. Anyway, FDR however had very little in this round. He started off as a Luthen pompous, exactly what you'd expect from a Roosevelt, but he caught polio and it seemed to change him. He came across as someone who actually cared about the people he represented. We in the end went for minus one apiece for the total of minus two, just because there was the occasional story with a bit of casual racism or sexism in his youth that didn't sit with us well. But there was no major stories or anything. So I think it's safe to say FDR's got this one.

Yes, absolutely. Okay, so we're saying FDR just gets Statesmanship, definitely gets Disgracegate. This is interesting. Let's see if Teddy can turn this round in our final category that we're going to cover. Silver! Well, we scored them very close. FDR got 19, however Teddy gets the full 20. So we have already decided Teddy to run here. Yeah, in fact we put Franklin D as fifth behind JQA, Washington and Jackson. Roosevelt was first. Yeah so there we go it's a fairly clear winner but don't forget FDR still got 19 which is very strong. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read out verbatim my silver

screen notes for both. Now when I write my silver screen notes they are the least detailed part of all of my notes. I don't look at anything all I do is remember what have I just been writing about and I put a very quick bullet point list figuring if I've forgotten about it already it's probably not that memorable. Yeah, yeah, good idea. Which might be why I occasionally miss something out in silver screen. Anyway, so Teddy, Teddy Roosevelt and also I usually embellish it a bit whilst I'm reading it, but this will just be word for word what I wrote. Teddy. Born into the aristocracy. Ill. Trip up the Nile. Working out. Off to uni. Obsessed with Alice. Stalking run out. Married Alice. Alice dies. Loses job. Falling out politically with Republicans. Runs away to the West, becomes a cowboy, goes

to Deadwood, meets Timothy Olyphant. Myrie's childhood friend Edith. Civil service, commissioner, attacks his own party, reforms the New York police force, prepares the country for a war, fights in the war, becomes a hero, becomes governor, becomes VP, becomes president, wins Nobel Peace Prize, takes on the Robber Barons, goes to Africa to hunt, gets back into politics, runs for Peace Prize, takes on the Robert Barons, goes to Africa to hunt, gets back into politics, runs for President again, his shot during speech, goes to the Amazon, dies in 1919, receives the Medal of Honour 70 years later.

That's quite a life. That is quite the life, isn't it? So now we go onto FDR. Posh upbringing. School. Senate. Assistant Secretary. Campaign for Vice President School. Senate. Assistant Secretary. Campaign for Vice President.

Polio. Political comeback. Governor. President. New Deal. Failed power grab. War. Death.

Yeah, pretty much sums it up. It's politics at its best. It was not flashy or interesting. It got things done and made the lives of many in the country better. Which is unusual for me and Silver Screen to write something like that at the bottom. I obviously, when I wrote that, felt I needed to justify... because that didn't sound that exciting, but actually just getting stuff done was very important. Yeah, it's... I think it's very clear Teddy kind of clinches that very easily.

It's very easily his round this, isn't it? He is definitely the more interesting of the life. Right, there's one more thing that I'm gonna do before we finally make our final decision. But it's close, isn't it? It's very close, yeah. It's close because the first two FDRs got, statesmanship was almost a tie, Silver Screen Teddy's got clearly.

But fortunately, it's not just about us, Jamie. Because I asked our listeners on our Discord, our wonderful Patreons, what they think going into this round. So I've just selected three comments apiece supporting in our new segment, By the People of the People. By the People of the People. Okay, in support for Teddy, we've got Gairo as Sandwich. I'll just read out the comment here.

I'm for Teddy. The Rankium isn't about who the better president was, but who you're more likely to talk about at a party. And I certainly go to some hella nerdy parties where we do talk about FDR and its effect on the Supreme Court and all that. But far more often, I'm going to talk about all the wild bleep that Teddy got up to. Yeah, that's good indictment. Yeah, I mean, it's hard not to argue for that.

He's more exciting. Teddy is more exciting. Okay, we're now going to Ulm. I'm going to throw my two cents in for Teddy. On a purely aesthetic level, who is more American? Who can beat the rough riding, honest, god cowboy? On a presidential level, part of the mission statement of the podcast is how did we get Trump? And the answer you arrived at was we're in the second Gilded

Age. Teddy was the first president to seriously contend with the first Gilded Age with some limited success. He would transform the office from a milk-toast tariff talkers to the presidency such that we recognise it today, making way for the types of executive action FDR would use to implement the new deal." I thought this was a fascinating statement. Teddy made the presidency powerful again, which meant FDR could do his reforms. And also, if you're looking at why have we got into this situation now, well it kind

of, you can make the link between then and now. Yeah, it's interesting. So it's not just, yeah he's more interesting, but he genuinely had a big impact on the country. Yeah, that's a great analysis. Well done, Olm. Neil Webber's next. Teddy didn't put people in camps. It's a blunt statement from him there. And he does go on. He didn't use the apparatus of the state to imprison innocent people because of their skin colour. Teddy Roosevelt was a racist, he did racist things.

Lincoln was a racist who did racist things, although Lincoln was continually learning and getting better, which is a huge positive. But it's the putting people in camps that mean I cannot support FDR. Which is, fair enough, I mean it is a big thing. You cannot argue against that. There is no way you can argue against that. I mean you can, but you're justifying rounding up people based on their race and it's just not something that anyone should ever do. Yeah, that black markup against FDR cannot go away, should not go away, and should always be raised when you talk about him,

even if it makes you feel uncomfortable when you're equally saying he is almost inarguably one of the best presidents the United States have ever had. Because life is messy. And there aren't simple black and whites and good people and bad people. So yeah, very good point from Neil Weber there. So those were the more pro-Teddy ones. Let's get three pro-FDR. Hamilton Fillmore. FDR. Because with

his very privileged background, he easily could have just lived a life of luxury and especially after the polio, he could have just retired. But he didn't. His views of things changed and he actually used that for good. Yes, he had his faults, both personally and politically, but he guided everyone through two major issues in the Depression and World War II. Without him, the United States and the world would have been a very different place, and in some ways perhaps helped the way people see physical disability. Teddy was fun and arguably more interesting in a personal way, but FDR all the way for

me. Again, very good argument. It is a very good argument. It's very hard to argue against any of that. More than most presidents, FDR has shaped the future of the world. Yes, yeah, absolutely. So yeah. And also, unfortunately, I don't think FDR helped pave the way for how people see physical

disability as much as I'd like, because it was mostly covered up. Unfortunately I don't think FDR helped pave the way for how people see physical disability as much as I'd like, because it was mostly covered up. But it is there, and it is great to know that, hey, in America, even if you can't walk, you can be president. I mean, obviously not now, because they'd crucify you. But back then, as long as you hide it... Baby steps! Oh oh bad metaphor. You know what I mean, small, small, small chunks. Oh that's a hard thing to say isn't it?

It is, I'm not even going to try and help you. I'm not going to try, I'm going to stop now and feel slightly ashamed of myself. Small incremental movements towards the ideal that you want to get to. There we go, let's say that. Right. Next, Ali Bobwa. Behind the scenes, always with FDR, is his disability and his inability to walk. You could argue that he gave up his health and ultimately his life to finish World War II. I think I'm in a minority here where, yes, it was horrible that nuclear bombs

happened but I do genuinely think that if it hadn't, more people than we can imagine would have died, including most civilians. FDR is always and will always be my favourite. Teddy was a bleep and later split his party so badly and arguably caused all the bleep presidents that we have had before the Great Depression that FDR had to then clean up. Now this is another really good point that goes counter argues the the point earlier that Teddy Roosevelt really shifted the politics and made the president powerful again but arguably yes he absolutely ruined his party because of arguably his own ego.

And because of that, he ended up with a bunch of bad presidents, you could argue. Interesting. And then finally, we have Jeff Cyclopedia. Now, Jeff's Storian, but not talking about Jeff here. We keep mentioning FDR being a better president, but honestly, I genuinely think you could make a better movie out of FDR's life than you could from Teddy's. FDR has literally everything. Great overcoming.

Literally Stalin, Churchill and Hitler in his story. Many elections, the political intrigue, the wartime drama, the building of a nuke, his reaction to Pearl Harbor as a person Teddy is more interesting, sure, but as a story, in my drunk opinion, FDR blows him out of the water. He then signed off saying, I'm too drunk for this, I'm off to bed. I can only assume we caught him at the pub. So yeah, I can see the argument. I personally say FDR's life is still more interesting myself, but it's a strong argument to be said that it's not an obvious choice.

So we've got lots to think about there. We have. I still don't know. No, I don't know either. Out of everything we have done so far, this is the closest one. I happily can go either way. Because there's sort of the... There's Teddy who had a bigger, well, a large staying impact in the US.

FDR had that, but also worldwide impact. Teddy was more interesting though. He was more interesting. He became a cowboy, he went to Deggdward, he gets shot while delivering a speech. He's just more fun. And this podcast is always who's more interesting, and unfortunately both of them come out very high on this just for different reasons. FDR is the more interesting historical character, FDR is the more interesting personal character.

Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I don't know either Jamie, I'm kind of hoping you'd say one and I'd be able to go, well maybe but let's go with you then, since I don't mind. Devil's Advocate, why not FDR, why not? Why not FDR? As in why not him personally or why Teddy Oberheim? Why not Franklin D. Roosevelt? I mean we've got the obvious as Neil Webber said, the reason why he doesn't vote for him, which is a very good point, you're voting for someone who set up concentration camps for your own citizens

It's a good reason not to vote for someone. Yeah, but that makes it interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I personally Would still be happy to yeah, exactly I still would be happy to vote for him as long as no one pretends that what he did was a good thing It's interesting history although reprehensible. Why not Teddy? Because he split his party but that's also very interesting. I can't think of a reason why it should be Teddy Roosevelt. He shot a dog? Oh he shot a dog, yeah no screw him. Okay well now let's flip that, why FDR? The New Deal got the Contra-Strel-War 2

That's good isn't it, that's good as well. Which helped Europe as well afterwards. Oh we did do that. He went for a third term which is incredibly unusual, went for a fourth term, died before that. All of this is good. And he did all that whilst chronically ill. It's all very good isn't it? Why Teddy? The character, the myth, the legend.

You know, he grew up having asthma and went on holiday, fresh air, stuff went all around the world with his parents. Butchered billions upon billions of insects and butterflies. He was an accidental president. He became a cowboy, he got shot at and carried on his speech and he then died in a rainforest somewhere. Probably. Probably. Let's not look into that. We've not done that episode yet. Let's say yes, that's what definitely happened. He drowned in the river Amazon. Yes. Yes. Whilst fighting off piranhas. Yes. Ah Jamie, I'm no closer. I'm no closer. No I'm not either.

For a moment, for a moment there I went yes, definitely Teddy. But then you started speaking about FDR and I went oh no it's going to be him hasn't it? I've got a leaning now. I'm leaning towards one. I want to see if you are first before I say. I think I've got a leaning but it is very, very, very small. Yes, yeah it's like microscopic. Okay one two three and then we say one two three Teddy. Yeah. Oh right okay we're still split. Okay ball this down at the end of the day this podcast about who is more interesting who you more likely to talk about. I'm going to throw you a party tonight.

Oh, that's nice. I'm inviting lots of my Star Trek friends. Well, one, I'm going to I'm going to invite lots of historical people that I know that love history. You have to do a five minute talk speech about a president. Who are you picking? FDR or Teddy Roosevelt? I could so easily do either. That you want to get the most entertainment from you want people to

enjoy the conversation. You go oh that's funny that's interesting. Then that more fun that's Teddy you've got more interesting stories. So therefore he's more interesting therefore it should go to Teddy boiling it down. I'm not happy about it but that it makes sense to me. Does but I think... okay last thing to consider and then we will definitely make a decision. I know I usually say let's not do it but let's do it let's actually look forward to the final. Who's got more chance of winning a final out of these two? FDR. Yeah that's kind of what I think as well. Which means we're still

neck-and-neck., we're not allowed to toss a coin. We need to make a decision. Okay, we'll do countdown from three again and we'll just say where we are. Let's see where we are. Okay. Three, two, one. FDR. Okay, we've done it. We've made a decision. We're going for FDR. I'm not going to sit here and justify why I finally came to that because to be honest, I'm not entirely sure and if you ask me again in 30 seconds I'll have probably changed my mind but that is where we land. FDR squeezes through this semi-final. That out of all the years of doing totals for Ankyl I think is the hardest choice I have ever had to make. That was

unbelievable yeah. Yeah but there we go FDR's through wow done FDR you are into the final you are going to face either Lincoln or Jackson I hope you are up to it so far all of my predictions have been correct oh interesting and I've not told you what they have been either no I could be lying but I'm not to be honest I think for groups one two and 3 I think it was fairly easy to make a prediction there. Group 4, okay that was close. This one you just got lucky. This one could have gone either way. That's true. Right, okay well that's our semi-final done. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for downloading us wherever you do download us from and thank you to our patrons as well for offering suggestions and our help in this episode it's very useful yes thank

you very much if you want to join our discord then sign up to our patreon you get all the extra episodes that we've done and you get to go and chat to people a really nice community everyone's very friendly yeah all hail the peach right okay then all that needs to be said is... Goodbye. Goodbye. And this is the BBC with the American Sports. Hello, my name is Winston Featheringway. And I'm Cuthbert Manbattern and here weingway. And I'm Cliff Birdman-Batton, and here we are on a, I assume a glorious day, we're inside, but it was nice when I came in

earlier on today, lovely sunny weather. If you're tuning in for the Ice of the Hockey, I apologize, different direction was the word. Different direction again, yes. Yes, there's a lot of directions in American sports. But anyway, it's the Worldwide Wrestling Association, is that right, what's a lot of directions in American sports, but anyway, it's the worldwide wrestling association, is that right? What's this called?

This is just called the Wrestle. The Wrestle, the Wrestle. So listeners, it is, apparently it's like wrestling, you know, wrestling that you do in school, but apparently there's a bit more entertainment value around it. Morphiatrics, I believe. Yes, that's what I heard, morphiat theatrics I'm not sure what that means maybe it's the masks you know covers one side of their face yes maybe maybe some music's involved or something I'm not sure how you make wrestling and theatre combined but we will see. I've heard there

be a glorious use of fireworks. Fireworks? You know wrestling match interesting. Yeah I know it should be fascinating to see. Well, it looks like we're ready to start. As we look towards the stage at the front, you can see the wrestling square in the middle. Then there's the stage and there appears to be someone entering the arena. Yes, the arena looks just like a boxing ring for those of you at home. And here we go. Yes, the music's on and in comes our first contestant.

It is Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt, here he is. Well, you've got to expect him to win. It says here that Theodore Roosevelt has been boxing since a teenager and knows how to box. Ah, that is quite unfortunate for his competitor. Roosevelt is making his way to the ring surrounded by Catherine wheels and a few those little those little fireworks as they go. Ituzelot. And have a Ruzelot in their brothers? I believe so.

I can only assume so. Yes, so, very tense. I mean, it says here that the man has not been doing physical sports since he was a teenager, which is a shame for him. Yes, in fact this is quite an unfair sport to place him in, but this is theatrics. Yes, well, let's see how we go. Anyway, they're both in the ring, they seem to be shouting at each other. They do. Oh, one of them speaks with a microphone, and he's speaking into it. He is saying something about Franklin D's mother.

He's going to smash him, he's going to bring him down, he's going to come for him, he's going to come for him. Yes. Brother, he's saying the word him down, he's going to come for him, he's going to come for him. Brother, he's saying the word brother a lot, they are brothers, they are brothers. He's just said, well let me tell you something brother, and now he's flexing his muscles, doing the kind of a squatty pose, out to the audience, he's putting his hand on his ear while he's leaning into the crowd, very interesting, most rooms. Well that part seems to be over, I'm guessing that's the theatricsrics part I'm assuming we're now going to get down to the serious serious sporting event. Yes well the referee is in the middle he's checking them for

illegal objects he's found nothing but I patterned them twice on the waist so that's a good start and the bell has been rung. Okay and it's an unusual start they so how do we explain this once? Well the only way I could explain this is that uh, Roosevelt has gone under the wrestling square, lifted up the apron and pulled out what looks like a steel folding chair, and brought it back into the wrestling square, and he's trying to hit FDR with it. Which sounds unbelievable, but I can confirm that's exactly what's happened,

and the referee apparently is letting this happen. But what is even stranger the referee apparently is letting this happen but what is even stranger Winston is that the other Roosevelt just stood and watched this while shouting at the crowd and now he is being hit by the chair but in a way that almost suggests that it's, I hate to say this, not real in some way almost as if that punch is being pulled. well let's see that judgment to the end shall we well Franklin D is now all out of the wrestling square he's gone into the he's pulled out a big table a unfolding table he's lifted it into the ring and oh dear Lord he set it on fire okay this is this is new I've not seen this in the wrestle before no it's quite

unusual it's this is not like wrestling back at Cambridge, I can tell you. No, absolutely not. There are no left arm hooks. The rules don't seem to matter. You'll be pleased to know there was just as much homoerotic tension though. Well, when two men are standing face to face, sweating their underwear, what can you expect? Oh yes, good days, good days. Now it looks like Ted is taking a run towards FDR who's standing in front of the flaming table and he's lifted Roosevelt up over him, he's flipped him back and oh! Teddy's gone through that flaming table, that must hurt! That must hurt, but no, apparently he's No, it's quite interesting.

Oh, and sorry, a third person's just entered the ring. He's dressed as some kind of monster. Not sure what's going on here. He's got his own theme music. Oh, it's Andrew Jackson. It's Andrew Jackson. He's not meant to be here until next week. The two Roosevelts have thrown him out of the ring. Jackson's no longer there, but the crowd loved it.

And I'm starting to get the impression that that's what's the most important thing here. Where's the light washing? A film, isn't it? I mean, you know it's not real. You just go along with it. It's a suspension of disbelief. Fair enough, fair enough.

Too much realism in my sport, I find. Yes. Well, anyway, whilst we've been chatting, it would appear that Roosevelt has won and Roosevelt has lost. Well, I'm glad that clears that up. Yes, we will of course get to you as soon as possible, which Roosevelt that is, but we have not yet been informed. Thank you for listening to us this evening. Yes, this has been the BBC and the American sport. but we have not yet been informed. Thank you for listening to us this evening. Yes, this has been the BBC with the American Spot. And please don't forget to tune in next week for Abraham Lincoln vs Andrew Jackson.

Thank you very much and goodbye. Goodbye.