American Presidents: Totalus Rankium - State of the Union 02 - Jerry Landry Presidencies Podcast

Episode Date: April 6, 2019

We have found another genuine American to have a loo over our scores and share a few thoughts. This time it is the very charming and Interesting Jerry Landry from the Presidencies podcast and William Henry Harrison Podcast. Check out his podcasts here: http://presidencies.blubrry.com https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/harrison-podcast/id1139467567?mt=2   

Whilst growing up, I honestly thought people in America just had iron hands or something because they could just twist their balls up and stuff. It's the Andrew Jackson approach to opening beer. If that doesn't work, shoot it. Welcome to Totalus Rankium. This week, State of the Union Part 2. Hello and welcome to American Presidents, so tell us Rankium. I am Jamie. And I'm Rob, ranking all of the presidents from Washington to Trump, but not this week.

No. No, no, because it's our second State of the Union episode this week. Yeah, we're not going to release Pierce Part Two this weekend, partly because I'm on a residential trip as part of my work, so I'm a bit busy at the moment. But also, we have this fantastic interview lined up, so we thought we'd release this this weekend. Sounds good. Yeah. So who we're talking to well jamie as you know we've already talked to them yes we have yes we have a while ago in fact and then after the interview we had a celebratory couple of drinks and then remembered we haven't recorded the intro i was trying to play it cool, but yeah. Yes.

So here is our intro. We are talking to Gerry Landry from the Presidency's podcast, and I thoroughly enjoyed the chat. Yeah, it was very good. It was good. So knowledgeable. He knows his stuff. You can name any president, you can tell your stuff about them,

like in-depth stuff. Occasionally I'd make up a president, and he already knew about them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's how much he knows. That is on the ball. It's on the ball. Yeah. Anyway, so we talked, Gerry, about presidents from Van Buren to Fillmore,

although we talked about some of the others a bit as well. And just generally, how did we do with our ranking? So, yes, have a listen and go and check out his podcasts. The Presidency's podcast and the William Henry Harrison podcast as well. Nice. Yeah, okay. Enjoy.

It starts now. What now? You did this last time, seriously. I'm a joke, let's keep it going. Now. What, now? Yes. Now.

Hello and welcome to American Presidents Totalus Rankium. This is State of the Nation, oh, this is State of the Union. I am Jamie. I'm Rob. And I'm Jerry. We've got an extra person because this is State of the Union. I am Jamie. I'm Rob. And I'm Jerry. We've got an extra person because it's State of the Union and we have contacted yet another genuine American. We found another one. There are a couple of us around here. Yeah, yeah. So we're hoping,

Jerry, if you don't mind, we're going to pick your brains about some of the presidents we've recently and you can tell us what you think. Absolutely. Sounds wonderful. But before we do that, I think maybe you should introduce yourself to our listeners in case they're not sure who you are. So I'm Jerry Landry. I'm the host of the Presidencies of the United States. And like Rob and Jamie, I'm going through each president one at a time to kind of examine what happened during their presidency. But I'm taking more of an in-depth approach, quite in-depth. Yeah, just a bit. For example, after a year and a half, I am now on, I'm now about to wrap up with John Adams. So we're taking a little longer review,

So, we're taking a little longer review, but in my podcast, I'm not just focusing on the president, but also the people around the president and what's going on around the time that helps to influence what happens in the president. Yeah, yeah. So, a real in-depth look at what's going on with the state of politics. Absolutely. And it's fascinating to see because, you know, since I started this, really realizing even 200 years after, how many things really haven't changed in politics and society and culture and what's going on. But for me, I take heart in that, in that we've kind of, we've walked these roads before, we've made it through, and we'll figure things out again, no matter what happens. Yeah, it really does stand out, that does, doesn't it? I think that quite often whilst doing my research. Great, and you also created the Harrison podcast as well. Yes. So that was actually my first start at

podcasting. I created the Harrison podcast, which is focused in and around the life of the ninth president, William Henry Harrison, whom y'all covered a few episodes back and we'll actually be talking about. And in honor of Harrison, I'm actually wearing my tippa canoe and tyler two shirt nice i want one of those i'm impressed it did amuse me that when we were going to uh get to harrison i got quite a few messages saying oh you'll only need to do one episode on harrison that's like really i've seen the harrison podcast how many episodes did you do? So I ended up with, I think it was 40-something episodes, but I did one series just on his life, and it was 12 episodes. So, yes, I go for the long view.

Right. Okay, then. So as we have already discussed the President's Washington to Jackson with People Be Poetess, with you, we're going to be discussing People B. POTUS. With you, we're going to be discussing Van Buren to Fillmore, generally not considered quite as good as the earlier presidents. Exactly. And for me, this is a fascinating time in American history because we're getting beyond that revolutionary generation and starting to get into new generations of leaders, of individuals, but we're still dealing with some of the legacies that the founding generation knew were going to be problems and they really didn't figure things out in time. didn't figure things out in time. And you see, you know, as you're going past Jackson and closer and closer to 1860,

it's this almost unraveling of the status quo, of what America was. And of course, you know, spoiler alert, there's some shakeups coming. Yes. Great. Yes. Great. Right. Well, let's dive in then, shall we?

Statesmanship. We're first going to look at our round statesmanship, which is where we judge each president on how statesman-y they are. Do you want to define that better, Jamie? Yeah. Were they presidential? Were they a good role model? Did they represent their country well and effectively? Yeah. How good a politician were they?

Yeah. Did they do good things for the country? That kind of thing. So I'm just going to give the scores we've given to these six presidents first, and then we can discuss them so uh the most statesmanship president out of these is polk on 14 then in second place comes van buren with eight then we've got taylor on six then we've got tyler on four and then harrison and phil moore coming last on two sorry about that with harrison i know you're a fan i do have an opinion on that i had a feeling you might yeah so go on then um well let's actually let's start with uh let's

start with punk shall we because we've said he's the most statesman like out of this bunch uh do you think we're on the money with that one i think you were um first of all polk has such a lengthy career and for somebody who was considered a dark horse candidate you know this is this is a guy who was the speaker of the house and is to date the only person who was speaker of the house to become president so he was very much intermeshed in the politics of the time and obviously was successful enough to become president. And also during his tenure, you know, here's a guy who said that I'm only going to serve one term and here are my priorities while I'm in office. And he achieved all of them. It's very rare that

a president can say that. Yeah, it's remarkable for a politician. When was I saying it, Jamie? I was saying it about a politician, not going to do with the podcast, how all politicians just destroy themselves eventually. You can't bow out of politics gracefully, it just never happens. Oh yeah, you were talking about David Cameron? Possibly, yeah. And yet here's Polk proving me wrong. He does. Because at the beginning he says, I'm only going to run for one term in order to rally his party behind him. He's able to step away, achieving everything he said he'd achieve.

It's without going into too much spoilers for the future. Could you say any other president managed to do that? Oh, I would probably say in terms of the levels of what they were able to achieve in office, I don't know that they necessarily knew going in what exactly they were able to achieve in office. I don't know that they necessarily knew going in what exactly they were going to achieve, but thinking about Teddy Roosevelt and his progressive agenda, thinking about FDR and FDR basically having two presidencies, you know, one more

focused on the New Deal, one more focused on winning the war. And then LBJ, Lyndon Baines Johnson, coming in and kind of taking the baton from John F. Kennedy and running with it. And some have argued gone much further than JFK ever would have gone. So I think those, it'll be interesting whenever you get to those presidents and kind of gauge them against some of these earlier presidents, because part of the problem, whenever you're looking at the scope of the presidency, that's been fascinating looking at Washington and John Adams, just how little influence they had in

global politics, how they really, the government was so small in those days. And it was difficult to have more of that direct impact. But then again, it becomes, you know, what is the presidency? but then again it becomes you know what is the presidency the presidency and and really all politics is using what position you have in order to achieve results yeah it's um i think he scored as high as he did um he scored 14 oh no sorry he scored 13 in this round i i just noticed i did that wrong but um yeah i mean 13 is way above anyone else in this round because he had um that clear agenda at the start that he he pushed through although then he did go to war with mexico which was a bit of a land grab yes just a little bit yeah i mean there's little justification for that. So he definitely lost some points there.

Yeah, I still stick by putting him higher than the other five in this category. Van Buren's the other one who scored quite highly, mainly because he helped create the Democrat Party. Absolutely. And again, he was one who was involved in, first of all, New York state politics, but then going into the national level for such a long career. And he did have such an impact on shaping really what we think of now as party politics. Again, right now, talking about the Washington presidency and the presidency of John Adams, even though I talk about the Federalists and

the Democratic Republicans, they're nowhere close to as organized of an institution as Van Buren created. One thing I enjoyed about researching him and when we did his episode, Jamie, it was that feeling of backroom talks. He felt like a politician for the first time. Yeah. You could really get the sense that you could transplant him into the modern world

and he probably would have been okay, apart from a bit freaked out by all the blinking lights. And even his tactic of not giving a straight answer. Never be able to say, yes, I'm for this. He always kept very on the fence, didn't he? Absolutely. Yes, yes, I'm for this. He always kept very on the fence, didn't he? Absolutely. Yes, yes.

And really the only aspect of what we now in the modern age think of as a politician that he lacked was that personality, that being able to go out and glad hand. Exactly. And that's where he suffered in 1840 because Harrison was great at that. He was able to go out and be everybody's old tip of canoe, the honorable general. able to get people excited about him as a candidate, whereas Van Buren was still in that mindset of, well, we're not really supposed to go out and campaign for ourselves. That's not honorable. And he left the floor open for everybody else to interpret who he was. He didn't take the reins and define himself on the campaign trail? Well, I'll give you a chance to defend Harrison's low score in just a second then.

Before we do, something I was wondering about recently, I read somewhere about Van Buren, in a few places actually, about how he's Jackson's underling. He was Jackson's protégé. It was, I never really got that sense. I always got the feeling more that Van Buren saw Jackson as a way to get his version of politics through, not someone to look up to. Am I off the mark there? No, I think you're right on the mark. And that's the thing that I think people don't understand about Van Buren. And Van Buren is one of those, and again, most of the presidents in this grouping kind of fall into that same misunderstood mindset. With Van Buren, he was already a political force before he kind of hitched his wagon to Jackson.

And honestly, that was one of the biggest struggles that he had with his presidency is trying to establish himself as an independent president because he did. He did ride on Andrew Jackson's coattails, which is a dangerous thing to do with Jackson. He gets angry. Oh, yeah. Don't say anything about Rachel. But exactly. And he spent four years trying to define himself and establish himself as an independent president, while at the same time trying not to tee off jackson and his supporters and honestly there was no way there was no way for him to do that because you know you have the

panic of 1837 you've got this awful economic situation something has to be done and jackson didn't have the answers jacksonian Democrats didn't have the answers. And so you see him struggling with this and struggling not to be his protege. And so it's interesting that now most cursory glances of Van Buren, it's, oh, well, he was Jackson's protege. Okay, then.

Go on. Why were we so wrong with two points for Harrison? So with Harrison, again, Well, he was Jackson's protege. Okay, then. Go on. Why were we so wrong with two points for Harrison, then? So with Harrison, again, he's one of those that I think that there are really two areas that people focus on when they think of Harrison. One is the War of 1812. And, you know, think about Tippecanoe as kind of the prelude to that. And then his very short presidency. But here's a guy who had a lengthy career.

First of all, he was involved in the government of the Northwest Territory, which basically encompassed what we now think of as the Midwest, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois. And then he became the governor of the Indiana Territory and had this extensive career for better or worse because there is room as we have hindsight and we have an expanded understanding and knowledge base. We look back at what he did and yeah, there were some issues there. But at the time, and honestly, we couldn't be where we are

as a United States, if not for some of the actions that he took as the governor of the Indiana Territory. Likewise, even though he would get to high offices and only stay there for a few years, he was in the U.S. House of Representatives, he was in the Senate, he served his brief tenure as the U.S. Minister to Columbia, he seemed to have a great sense of the duties of citizenship and leadership. He took great responsibility on himself to be a good model for folks. And as you study him over time and really start to delve into his life, you start to get a sense. And I know I'm one of very few people who has actually read through his entire inaugural address and studied it extensively.

to question government, to not just accept what the executive says, not just constantly give powers to a government or to an individual. He stresses ideas of citizens being involved in government. And you really get a sense, this is a guy, he wasn't always right. And I think he would he would say that at times he made mistakes but he tried to be honorable and he tried to present a example of a good leader yeah you do get the the sense that he is one of those what-ifs in american history i mean tyler was a very different politician very different wig not really a wig it would have it would have been very different politician, very different wig, not really a wig. It would have been very different if Harrison had survived. And in those 30 days, I quite liked what I was seeing, I'll be honest. Absolutely.

Here you've got him saying, you've got Henry Clay who basically thinks he's going to come in and walk all over Harrison. You know, oh, here's this old man. I'll just tell him what to do and I'll run Congress as well as the White House. And Harrison very quickly shuts him down. He says, no, you stay on your side. I'll stay on my side. We'll work together when we need to. But I'm the president. And it's really fascinating that he starts to set those boundary lines very early.

Especially following on Van Buren, who spent four years trying to placate his predecessor in office. And here you've got this guy coming in and within 30 days saying, I'm going to be president. I'm going to make my presidency. Okay, so if you were to score him then in this round, because there's only one of you, you can score him out of 20 if you want. What would you go for?

I would probably go... Well, and I do have to say that I would probably rank him a little higher than Van Buren, but that may be my bias going in. So I'll go ahead and give him a 10. A 10? Okay. Okay. I think a short 10 you played against him for us, didn't it?

I don't disagree with anything you said, I think it's when you look at his life like we did in approximately three hours, and you've got a round where you're judging how much he did as president, and he was only in there for 30 days. It's hard to give him a higher mark. Although you do make a very good point with all the work he did in the Midwest. Absolutely. And especially thinking of the Midwest, And especially thinking of the Midwest, it's hard for us to conceive nowadays of that being the frontier. But reading some accounts of just how difficult communication was, how difficult it was to get around. And here he is trying to administer this wide territory and really having to rely kind of on his own and the few people that he's got around him because the government is so far away you you send a message to him i need help and maybe a few months later you'll actually hear a response yeah yeah so as an american being in america

these presidents these six are not particularly well known outside America, or at least speaking from being in England. Absolutely not. I don't think I had heard of any of them before starting the podcast, to be honest. I certainly hadn't. Yeah. I probably could have named roughly about half the presidents

before starting the podcast, and none of these six would have been on there. Are they well-known in America? No. You're pretty much in the same boat as most Americans. It's funny. So, well, and it's funny, you know, you see like Millard Fillmore has kind of this cult following of being the most forgotten president or you'll get, you know, the trivia question about Harrison having the shortest tenure. But other than that, you know, really getting a sense of any of these.

No, they are not well known at all in America. The president nearly dying on a boat that blew up? Exactly. Doesn't resonate? No. That was a big story. I remember reading the biography. I had no idea that was coming. I was flicking through the pages reading, and it's, what?

He almost got blown up on a boat. How have I never heard this before? Exactly. And I had the same sense whenever I was going through, because, you know, before I started podcasting, I actually took a challenge of reading a biography on each president. And when I got Tyler and read that, I was like, how do we not know about this? I mean, this is screen-worthy stuff. Disgrace Gate. Well, actually, this segues nicely into our next round,

which is Disgrace Gate, because Disgrace Gate has a clear winner out of V6, and that is Tyler. Yeah, so in this round, we have Tyler on minus 15. Then we have Polk, Taylor, and Fillmore all on minus 6, and Van Buren and Harrison on minus 4. So, I mean, there is an obvious winner there for Disgrace Gate. Again, general feeling.

Do you think we're roughly on the right lines there? I think you're roughly on the right mark. And it's funny because I actually, in preparation for this, I took all the scores that you've given thus far and kind of compared the averages for the first group, so Washington to Jackson, with this group. Oh, it did more work than i did and because of jackson and jefferson in disgrace gate the first group has a well lower rating so eight a negative 8.14

versus the the current group van buren to fillmore uh which is negative 6.83 but tyler is definitely one of those that stands out i mean the man committed treason it's quite a big one isn't it on top of the other the other things in his life that you can talk about as disgraceful he committed treason yeah i'll be honest it's not even the treason that i think of first i mean he's got the the typical which most of them have at this uh time problems with slavery um exactly but but tyler maybe it was the the biographies I read but I always got the feeling that Tyler was a bit more okay with slavery than most of us

the story of him selling a woman just so he could get to Washington a bit quicker it's just it's not on and the stuff with Julia it's creepy it's creepy.

It's a bit creepy. It is. Just a little bit. It really is. Well, and with the slavery issue, you really get a sense as you're getting into this group and you're starting to look at politicians from the South, you read some of their letters and some of their thoughts about slavery, and it just, it makes you cringe. Like, how could somebody, how could this ever come into your mind? Then you look at the economics of the time period, and really that was their conception of economics

and especially in Virginia there was this and I hate to call it this but an industry they produced slaves, enslaved people to then sell into the deep south to actually work. They sort of sold their humanity for the dollar, hadn't they? Exactly. And that was how they primarily made their money. That was how they supported themselves.

And the scope of this, there were many people, there were many poor whites who didn't own slaves, but then you ask yourself, well, they were still involved in the economy. So did they, were they involved? And then you expanded even further into Northern industries that took cotton from the South and manufactured goods. And so how complicit were they in yeah yeah the slave owning industry it's almost as if it's a really complex issue that would take decades to sort out exactly yeah and and you you start to get a sense in this time period, looking at this time period, of why the founders took a pass at it because they realized how complex it was. But then at the same time, you want to scream at them, why didn't you avoid this?

You could have avoided this. If I remember correctly, we did dock Washington a couple of points, didn't we? I think. We must have done. Yeah, surely we did dock washington a couple of points didn't we um i think we must have done yeah surely we did um washington was a minus six yeah yeah i'm guessing that minus six was for for not really getting to grips with this i don't know do you think it could have been dealt with in the early days well and it's interesting because especially looking at the 1790s, you know, before the invention of the cotton gin. So there is this one Virginian, Robert Carter. He came from this very affluent Virginia aristocracy, you know, one of the big, if not the big

family in Virginia at the time. And he is the person who had the most enslaved people that he freed, all of them on one day. And not only freed them, but made provisions to try and support them, or if they wanted to leave the South, he would help them to do that. It ended up his family suffered in terms of their personal finances. And they got to a very, you know, they ended, he ended his life in more humble beginnings, much more humble than he started, but he felt that it was the right thing to do. And at that time he was still able to do it. But after that time, you have the invention of the cotton gin.

You have the Haitian Revolution. You have various slave uprisings. And they start to constrict the ability to actually emancipate slaves. They place further limits on enslaved people. You know, you have all these slave laws being passed and it just becomes this more rock solid institution that is harder to break through. And to me,

it seems like the 1790s were really the last chance to turn and it was going to be difficult even then yeah yeah i mean i think what is definitely lost uh about american history at least the the casual observer from the outside is just how fragile america was to begin with you can see why they were nervous about trying to do anything that would rock the boat in the early days because it it could literally bring this new country to its knees uh monarchy was just around the corner and a lot of people feared that well and and even you know beyond monarchy chaos you know you have the the french revolution and the reign of terror and it you look at primary documents from the 1790s and one of the things i've been surprised in my podcast doing research is how many people you have

saying oh well i think in a few, it's all going to fall apart. We're going to be in a civil war. We're going to have states seceding. And this is the 1790s. This is Washington's presidency. It's like, whoa. But to your point, it was very fragile, and they didn't know what it – would they end up with a monarch? Would they end up with guillotines?

Well, John Adams thought that it was all going to fall apart, didn't he? Just before he became president. Yeah, I definitely think that's somewhat overlooked. Because America is so powerful now, you kind of forget that it wasn't at some point. Exactly. Right, going back to the disgrace gate of the other presidents then. So Tyler was a clear winner in this round.

The rest are pretty much on a par. I mean, considering these are not very well-known presidents, you kind of think a few things would go under the radar that they'd get away with, but there's not a huge amount. The only person who really stood out

was Phil Moore. But with Phil Moore, he scored minus six, away with but there's not a huge amount the only person who really stood out was fillmore yeah but with fillmore the way he scored minus six um but the way we do our categories is the it's disgrace gate is more personal and stuff he does that's disgraceful on behalf of the state goes into taking points away from statesmanship yeah uh and because of that that minus six doesn't seem too bad. I just didn't like Fillmore is what I'm trying to say. I just never got a sense of it being someone that I wanted to know more about whilst I was reading the biography. So that minus six almost surprises me slightly. I even double checked it when i was writing my list today uh so do you think we've been too kind on film or do you think we've done the right thing i actually i think you've done the right thing although i i do have to admit phil moore is definitely one of those he he feels like a politician yeah and that's not necessarily a good thing

Not necessarily a good thing. You don't say. You just, you come across Fillmore and you're just like, you almost get the sense you, and especially with the anti-Catholic sentiment that he expressed very publicly. and you almost want to ask you know did he really believe this or was this just for political gain and i don't know which one's worse yeah yeah exactly i mean it's it certainly is one of those ones where you read it and you just see how much it reflects what's going on in today's world so perhaps that's what led me to dislike him quite as much as i did um but yeah so he's on his minus six because apart from well it's the fugitive slave act that gets me but that doesn't really fall into this round but that was that was awful yes and again uh the fugitive slave act is not something that I've come across before starting this podcast. Is that something in America that is widely known but i think what most people don't know is that

this wasn't the first fugitive slave act yeah they actually had one all the way back in washington's presidency and whenever i um i did an episode on only judge who was one of the enslaved people at Mount Vernon, who Washington took with him to Philadelphia during his presidency, and Oney was able to escape. Yes, such a shame we had no time to go into her story. It really is fascinating. I wanted to do it, and I ran out of word count. But you've got a whole episode on her, haven't you? So people should go and listen to that. I have an entire episode on her. But in that, I was able to talk about the Fugitive Slave Act of that time. And especially comparing the two, you really get a sense, again, of this institutionalization of slavery in America.

slavery in America and the Fugitive Slave Act that was part of the Compromise of 1850, it definitely takes it a step beyond not just in the letter of the act, but requiring people in the North to turn in fugitive slaves and the abuse of it. That basically the onus of proving that they're not a runaway slave is on the individual who's being dragged back to the South. And so you have people who are free and have always been freed being taken and enslaved. And that's awful. But then I suppose it's all awful. You see, I suppose the history mainly is written

by white men who see the Fugitive Slave Act come in and say it's awful because it's suddenly very real to them. But then this has been the reality for most black people in America since America started. So it probably made little difference to most black people in America. It just suddenly became more visible to everyone else. And we're still dealing with those repercussions today. One of the great things about studying history now are the new voices that are coming in.

There is this conception of a historian as being this old white man, and now we have a new generation of historians that is anything but yeah and the the work that's being done in history nowadays is fascinating because it really starts to get at that this time period and all really all time periods are so much more complex whenever you start looking at the stories that haven't necessarily been told or have been left out of the narrative for so long because it was written by a certain group of people and really focused on people that they identified with,

that they saw, oh, well, they're like me, so let me draw out their story. saw oh well they're like me so let me draw out their story so it but then it makes it more complex to really get a sense of well what what was going on well it's complicated it's all complicated which is why you end up with uh how many episodes have you done so far? Two episodes? I think I'm in the 50s now. Yeah. So, Disgrace Gate then. Would you make any changes? I think I would leave it just as it is. There we go. I think y'all did a great

job there. And you're okay with Harrison's minus four? I am okay with Harrison's minus four. Great. Okay, next round then. Silver screen. Arguably my favorite round silver screen silver screen i do love the cinematic intros by the way it's the inner director in me i don't have cameras or budgets but i've got a microphone and that's all i need um, so in this round, we've

got two up there near the top, and then we've got three near the bottom, and actually that's quite spread out actually. I'll just say them, shall I? Harrison wins this one, I'm sure you're pleased to know, with 13. Taylor, just behind him on 12. Then we've got Van Buren on 8, Tyler on 6, Fillmore on 4, and then Polk on 3. So any surprises there for you? Not really. I think I definitely agree that Polk is probably the hardest one to envision there actually being a movie about his life. Because even though he has a large impact in the political arena of the time oh yeah yeah i don't think that's always so always as well as it

should be it it really doesn't make for a good movie no it really doesn't i mean he he he had that operation um oh, he did. We were actually on the road listening to that one and cringing the entire time. You should listen to the time I explained to Jamie how Unix were made in the Roman times. It was crushing. Yeah, just the word crushing is the only word you need to know.

Yes, I'm cringy now. But apart from that, I mean, he really didn't do anything, did he? It was just an incredibly boring story. He earns points in other rounds because he does interesting things but for a film it doesn't work does it no so i mean he is our lowest scorer in total in this round uh and justifiably so i'd say well and it's fascinating because again comparing this group

to the first group so on average average, Van Buren to Fillmore in silver screen, 7.67. Yeah. Washington to Jackson, 16.14. Wow, that is quite a difference. And also probably reflects how many films and TV shows have been made about these presidents as well.

You're just not going to get the Polk miniseries, are you? No. It is fascinating that the two who scored highest in this are the ones that, with Harrison, there was a fire at his house at North Bend. It was about a decade after his death. And so we lost a good many of his personal papers. Yeah.

Taylor, you know, his home was in Louisiana. And so during the Civil War, you know, the Union Army came in. His home ended up being destroyed as well as many of his papers. So the two that make it highest on silver screen, we know we have less primary resources for, but that may work to their benefit. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You can embellish a couple of things. I mean, I must admit,

Taylor has been one of my favorite to research so far. I mean, there was a slight problem that it was just he went somewhere, he fought, he went somewhere, he fought, he went somewhere, he fought, he went somewhere, he fought. But sprinkled in that all the stories of him just dressing up and fooling his subordinates. Okay, I suppose he wasn't dressing up, but I'm sure that's how they felt. Yeah, I liked that. I love it. And, you know, you really get a sense like both of them,

they were these personable characters. You get certain points where they're serving in the military and, you know, in a leadership role. And that's so much more appealing whenever you're thinking of a movie than backroom deals, maybe with Fillmore trying to figure out, you know, how to work in another anti-Catholic thing into a speech or poll. It's not great, is it? Heading a committee and trying to parse out language for legislation makes it a little more appealing that, you these are guys you know riding off into battle i mean if you are going to do that that sit down political talk kind of film van buren's the one

to go for in this bunch oh absolutely because i imagine you could get something good out of that i i would like to see uh it would essentially be a mini series on the rise of Jackson but through Van Buren's eyes I think would be a fascinating thing to see out of all the things we've covered so far that is one of the ones I'd like to see the most

even though we only gave him 8 because I don't know, I think I'm a bit weird like that, I'm sure most people would rather see Harrison and Taylor running around all over the place doing exciting things and dashing uniforms if it could be worked in like a 19th century West Wing style you know something like that you know this political intrigue and especially

with the petticoat affair. Yes. Peggy Eden and all that. I think that would be a really good storyline there. And Van Buren would feature prominently in it. It's a shame. We recorded the first episode of Franklin Pierce at time of recording. We've yet to record the second one,

but talking about presidents with a military career, I don't want to waste this opportunity to discuss with someone Pierce's military career, which is... Poor Pierce. He was splendid. Leave him alone. He tried.

I mean, it's every now and again when I'm researching a president or an emperor from the Roman Emperor series where I get to a bit and just go, oh, thank you. Thank you so much for this. What a gift. Yeah, going to Mexico only to be thrown forward in your saddle, crushing yourself and then fainting. Poor Piers. He tried. He tried. Or did he? He tried or did he he tried maybe he didn't this is it who knows and you really yeah and again with pierce being so little studied you know with washington

and jackson you can go to numerous biographies and kind of get a better sense of, well, okay, well, maybe we can look at it from this way. Maybe we can look at it from another way. But when you've only got like one or two voices that, okay, well, this guy's saying that he really did try. It was just a set of bad circumstances. And then another, well, he had a lot of bad circumstances. I'm being kind of cynical about this. It was one after another, wasn't it? Was he really that unlucky?

I mean, whenever you look at his entire life, you do have to start wondering, was he really that unlucky? Right. So are you happy with the scores in this round then i'm happy with these scores yeah and you agree with them compared to the last bunch absolutely yeah who have we got on top in this round it's uh what's jackson obviously it's jackson yeah yeah he scored four marks because yeah uh yeah he's andrew jackson yeah i'm glad disgrace gate takes points off in this series otherwise he would have been the runaway winner and uh no one would have

ever caught him and i don't think he deserves that so i'm glad we chose minus numbers for disgrace gate because jackson it comes to okay well you know maybe you've got a two hour run time which one of the many crazy shoot him out events in his life are you going to cut out yeah it was

quite the life it was but you could not cut out him beating the guy with a cane to try to assassinate him. That has to stay. Yeah, that is great, especially since he's really getting on by that point. Because I'm picturing like at that point, it'd be like, you know, 20 minutes or so of this feeble Jackson kind of wandering around the White House. And then all of a sudden somebody tries to assassinate him and he starts with

the cane. And the audience, oh my gosh, he's still, yes, he's still Andrew Jackson. The fear of the assassin when the second pistol didn't work also. Oh yeah.

Oh, now he's coming towards me. So many camera angles you can do with that. Yes, there definitely are. Right, let's go on to our next round then. Conversability. How sexy they looked. Pretty much.

I mean, we try and cloak it up as other things, but that's what we're judging, really. So, yeah yeah six portraits of six different presidents and um let's see we said looking at my list here we said that um taylor actually wins this one along with fillmore we gave both of them four a piece uh then polk and taylor oh no sorry then van buren got apiece. Then Polk and Taylor. Oh, no, sorry. Then Van Buren got 3.75. Then Polk and Taylor got 2.5. And then I'm sorry to say Harrison only got one. Here we go again.

So what are your thoughts on their looks? So what are your thoughts on their looks? So, and again, this may be my bias, but I do think Harrison deserves a little more than one. And especially the portrait of him in the military uniform. But that's not his official portrait, though. So we can't use it. I did see there was a much better portrait of him, but we've got to use the White House official portrait and unfortunately

Harrison's one for that is him I'm not fully convinced that they painted it before he was dead because he really does look a bit dead in the painting his skin looks waxy

his stare is a bit dead it's unfortunately a really bad painting which is a shame uh because he is one of uh america's military presidents i am surprised they didn't go for a military style painting uh like they did with with taylor maybe he wanted to distance himself like i'm not a soldier i'm a politician i'm a president i genuinely think if i'm remembering correctly this was painted after he died oh um so i don't think he had much for say fair enough or the ouija board but i think that i think that is kind of how they would try and portray him you know that he's just kind of this everyday guy who became president well he was in his cabin wasn't he exactly and he liked his hard cider yes he did oh remembering that

song that was a good song wasn't it yeah yeah I enjoyed the song I mean Taylor's portrait he looks very rough in his board it looks like he's seen some hard days, but I mean, it's just an impressive portrait. It's hard to go wrong. If you're standing there with a sword in your hand with a desert in the background. Yeah. Taylor.

I mean the nickname old rough and ready. I don't think there is a better fitting nickname for anybody that there definitely is an irony though that uh taylor will forever be remembered image wise him standing in a pristine uniform considering it sounds like he never wore his well and it'll be interesting when you get to grant, because again, you got this idea, you know, we,

we have these ideas of great military leaders always looking, you know, in these great uniforms and looking ship shape, but Taylor and grant, no, they were known as being slovenly of, of being out of official uniform of not really caring about their appearance. Yeah.

But you know, it, then they make the portrait and, oh yeah, that's, that's really how he looked for five seconds. Once upon a time. Grant's already getting bonus points for his beard. So he's got that. Yeah, Fillmore's portrait we found interesting. It's very much reminiscent of George Washington's. It's back in that room with a red table, standing, hip on shoulder, very jauntily.

Yeah, sort of, I'm pointing at this map sort of thing. Or constitution, was it? Yeah, it was the constitution, I think. He's just's just pointing at it his grubby hands all over it as if to say look it's in the constitution damn it it's not my fault I didn't make it up yeah well and and I really do wonder like I don't know really the story behind that portrait but I do wonder if it was intended to emulate Washington's portrait. Because you really, especially at this time of turmoil, you do get a sense of this evoking back to

this historic past and these historic leaders for some sense of, well, we are legitimate. We're still connected with Washington and the founders. And are they really? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we're just comparing the two photographs now, very similar. Yeah, standing to one side of a red cloth table window in the background i mean it can't be a coincidence it's yeah i think yeah i think you're right there uh last thing i'll ask

about the uh portraits it's a very important question does polk have a mullet it it was looking pretty mullety i genuinely thought he did for a while. I've, I've since become convinced that it's just swept back, unfortunately, but that painting definitely starts to look like a mullet. And what's really fascinating, you know,

now you're getting to the point where you can start looking at, um, you know, you have photography coming in. And so comparing some of the portraits to the actual photographs, there was one of Taylor and I believe it was during his presidency. I posted on social media one time and somebody commented there like, okay,

this was before he died. Right. Because he's looking pretty dead here. It was definitely not a flattering portrait. Oh, we'll have to find that out and put that up. Right, so are you happy with our canvas ability scores then, apart from Harrison, who you think should get more? The others, I will say yes. Yeah, but you think should get more the the others i will say

yes yeah but you want harrison fair enough i'm seeing a theme i'm not biased at all so um final scores then uh we have uh these six don't fare well compared to the first seven no in fact all of them but Van Buren are in the lower half. Yeah, so we've got Van Buren comes in seventh overall, Harrison tenth overall, Tyler is our last place. He's in minus numbers, minus 2.5. Polk is in ninth place with 14.5. Taylor, eighth place with 17.

Fillmore, 12th place with four. I mean, talking not just this group, but all of them, where we've got Washington on top and John Quincy Adams second. Anything jump out at you as something's gone wrong there? On total scores, I think that one of the things that this group suffers from is that it really does come to what are the results? What are the end results of their presidencies? And in this case, most of them, you really can't score them that high because you've still got these issues, these larger issues that just keep popping up and being unresolved.

And historians have asked the question of, well, even if you had a Washington or a Lincoln or an FDR in this time, would they really have been able to do something different? Can you not argue you did have a Lincoln in that time? Well, not at this time. I suppose. It is a bit later, isn't it? And we actually had this discussion on a history group on facebook earlier this week about taylor and fillmore and the compromise of 1850 you know i i think it's safe to assume that if taylor had lived i don't think he would have gone for the compromise he

was very much against it but But what would that mean? Would states start seceding? And would we have had the Civil War 10 years earlier? And if so, what ramifications does that have? Because in that 10 years, you see so much development of industry and industrial infrastructure that was key to winning the Civil War. How would that have impacted the ability of the Union Army to mobilize and get troops in place? You also start to wonder, you know,

how much were the Northern states fractured at this time? You know, you've still got the major parties, but they're starting to disintegrate. And during those 10 years, you have the breakup of the Whig Party. You have the basic breakup of the Democratic Party into a northern and southern faction. And you have the Republican party coming in and developing you know would they

have been able to achieve as much unity as was achieved in the 1860s and unity of purpose in the 1850s or would we have ended up with two separate nations or or more and and that's the thing like that 10 years is such a pivotal time and and it's all speculation yeah of course but uh we're fine with speculation on total it's kind of about bread and butter oh yeah yeah so sometimes you do have to fill in the gaps. Exactly. So are you okay with our top three so far being Washington, John Quincy Adams, and Madison? Yes. Not only were they great leaders, but also I think they had visions of the future of the nation that went beyond themselves and their time period. And you really don't see that with some of the other presidents. You really get a sense of some that are very rooted in their time, for better or worse. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, John Quin adams to his detriment almost uh unfortunately but he doesn't lose points for it in our podcast um what about our bottom three then so we've got um jackson third to bottom which i imagine is the the biggest upset in the podcast so far then we got phil more and then last place tyler and that's the thing you know thinking of jackson he whenever i finally get to him a few years down the line 2032 at my current pacing um jackson is one that I really struggle with because in terms of the influence that he had on American history, I mean, that's, that's undeniable. Um, but it's not a great influence. It's, it's really not.

In some ways it's, it's really awful. Yeah. And, and, and in terms of who he was he was this this dynamic personality obviously he was able to basically build this this cult of personality around him but again wasn't really a good personality and i can't help but feel that the only reason why he was successful is because van buren managed to throw the weight of his political machine behind him. Exactly. You see some support for him in 1824, but it's really Van Buren coming in and establishing that machine behind him, that solid force that helps him to get to victory in 1828.

Yeah. Are you happy that Harrison has beaten Jackson? Very much so. That was a personal triumph. I mean, he's only one place above at the moment. Harrison is our fourth to last. But I mean, surely's only one place above at the moment. Harrison is our fourth to last. But surely, as a Harrison fan, you've got to realize you're going to struggle in things like this podcast. Are you happy with where Harrison is?

Absolutely. And that's the thing. You see the presidential rankings and Harrison know harrison is consistently towards the bottom but then i i question it i'm like did you really study harrison or did you just did you just take the the cursory glance of oh well he died after 30 days he he must not have been that good he must not have really done much of anything with his life. I don't really know anything about him. Well, you know, whenever you start digging into his life, he becomes a more interesting character. And to me, what's fascinating about him is that he was not only present, but in many cases in a leadership role in key times in American history. And you do get the sense that he felt that he was doing the right thing and trying to

do the right thing, whether it was or not, that's for posterity to judge. But at the time, you get the sense that he is this guy, he's trying to do the very best he can. Well, great. I mean, I think we've done fairly well there, Jeremy. I think generally, you don't think we've made a mess of things, which is all I

can hope for, really. Well done, Rob. I've got a question for Gerry, though. Favourite president. Does my name say successful? The most interesting president. Who's your favourite? Have you not been listening to the last hour, Gerry? No. Are you at least not going to say apart from harrison so and it's being a presidential history geek you i i do have these times that I do think about, well, who do I really like? And it comes to many

different factors. Who do I think was the most successful president? Who's the one that I really would like to have dinner with and have a conversation with? And it's funny, and I'll go ahead because, you know, of course, the larger ones, you know, Lincoln, TR would just be fascinating to watch. With TR, you don't really get a word in, but he's just fascinating to watch, I would imagine. Just fascinating to watch, I would imagine. But in terms of thinking of the lesser known presidents, I'll be interested to see what you think of Rutherford B. Hayes. Beard.

He does have a beard. That is literally all I can say right now. That is all I know about him. He's one very much less known, but he has an interesting story as well. So post-war, because we're rapidly approaching the war, are we going to see an uptick in terms of points, do you think? No. Or is it just...

Well, there's one that stands out. But other than that, no, probably not. You've got a ways to go. Fair enough. Right. My final question then, since you got one, Jamie. On a scale of one to ten, how evil was Calhoun? yeah i i do now every time i i see calhoun's name or see his portrait i do think of a volcano layer and all because he does have this large impact, just like Clay and Webster.

They're thrown together in the American triumvirate, but the ideas that Calhoun espoused, and you start looking at some of his writings and it's like, oh, my gosh, he is. It's it's awful. And again, it's like you said earlier, how much was it just so he would gain support? And does that even matter? Because it's awful either way. it's awful either way. Well, and with Calhoun, with what I've studied of him, he genuinely did believe that, as they call it, the peculiar institution, that it needed to persist and grow, and by any means necessary, even to and up to nullification and secession. And in him, you see the development. It's the next generation of some of the most awful ideas that came into Jefferson.

These ideas started with Jefferson, the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, this idea that states could nullify federal law. You see that he's taking that and running with it and growing from it and with it. He didn't necessarily have to because you look at Calhoun's early career and he is more of a, as we would think of like a federalist, a nationalist, thinking of the whole nation.

But increasingly over time, his focus becomes on the South and the slave power. And how do we use the institutions to ensure the continuation of this region and this institution? So what's the score then he would be very high on disgrace gate yes no i definitely agree at some point we definitely will do some episodes on non-presidents because there's so many characters i want to go back and look at in more detail calhounoun, I imagine, will get an episode. It won't necessarily be a fun one. Well, and even thinking of Henry Clay and Daniel Webster, there are things about them that, you know,

they're kind of cringeworthy at times too. So, but, you know, they were major players at the time. Yeah. Great. So, but yeah, you know, they were major players at the time. So yeah. Great. Well, thank you very much for coming and having a chat with us. It's always very weird talking like live to someone who you've listened to a lot of podcasts of the times listening to you speak. Cause I, oh no, I'm not listening to a podcast.

I'm into the spot. Yeah. And vice versa. Because, oh, no, I'm not listening to a podcast. I'm into the spot. And vice versa. I keep waiting to hear the voice. Oh, he's sleeping at the moment. Yeah, voice goes away. Yeah. He's got to rest up a bit.

He does. He does. Great. Right. Well, thank you very much. We'll have um have a chat with you again at some point later on down the line and see see what you think of our other judgments absolutely look forward to it and if you ever want me on whiskey battles i've got a it is a hold on let me grab it it is a jefferson's very small batch bourbon oh yes you sent me a link to that. That looked amazing.

I think that would be one for whiskey battles. Yeah, you can definitely come along on whiskey battles. I'm not entirely sure how we'd do it this way, but who cares? We'll figure it out. Where do you live? Come on over. North Carolina. Fantastic.

Great. Okay. Thank you very much. And yeah, I suppose we'll end the episode there then. Yeah. Great. Okay. Thank you very much. And, uh, yeah, I suppose we'll, we'll end the episode there then. Yeah.

Yeah. Great. Thank you very much for that. That was, that was really good. No problem. Thank y'all. This was so much fun.

It was fun. And good to actually finally get to talk to you. Yeah. After what, how long, about a year of chatting online. Yeah. Something like that.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's been great. And, and Jamie, I, Jamie, what how long about a year of chatting online yeah something like that exactly yeah yeah no it's been great and and jamie i jamie i have to say that i loved the going into the scoring for millard fillmore yeah let's rate this mother it's like yes yes hell yeah Yes! Yes! Hell yeah. Yeah, someone else actually commented on you, Jamie, just being the voice that they wanted to say. I don't think it was film, I think it was someone else. You were just expressing disappointment. Yeah.

And hatred in many ways. Can't we do better than this? Come on. So there you go. That was our interview. I enjoyed that one. Yeah, it was very enjoyable. It's always nice chatting to people.

Because we sit in a room with a microphone and we talk. And then you talk to someone in real life who knows about your podcast and you go oh people are listening yeah yeah it's weird yeah and he works at averages and everything i know he did more work than i did okay i genuinely thought about doing that because i created i copied our table yeah and i thought oh i could work out some it's like oh i i just didn't have time. Who would do a thing like that? Yeah, he's clearly more dedicated than we are. But evidenced by the fact that he spent years on Washington alone, he's got so many to do.

So go and check out his podcast. And we'll have to have him on our whiskey series one day. Yes. Yes. Great. Next week is Pierce Part 2. Find out what happened when he becomes president.

And until then, goodbye. Goodbye. Have you just got yourself a bottle of whiskey? Yeah, we arrived. Excellent. I'm impressed. Sorry, I'll open it later. Yeah, you can open my beer now, though.

No worries. I have plans later. What whiskey did you get, Jeremy? Jim Beam Rye. Oh, nice. Nice. American whiskey. I don't think I've had the Rye version of Jim Beam before.

Me neither. I had Jim Beam. I thought I could really go. I'd say only 18 pounds is what I was going for. Yeah. Right. You've got your whiskey. We're sorted.