Anatomy of Murder - A Bridge to Murder

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

A missing daughter. A mother’s intuition leads her search to a local bridge. She finds her daughter’s body, and soon becomes … the #1 suspect. Right or dead wrong?For episode information and pho...tos, please visit https://anatomyofmurder.com/Can’t get enough AoM? Find us on social media!Instagram: @aom_podcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @AOM_podcast | @audiochuckFacebook: /listenAOMpod | /audiochuckllc

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Did she consent to have sex with you? No. As a result of that, did it struggle itself? Yes. How did you assault her? I put my hands on her arms. You understand she died from that? Yes. I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff.
Starting point is 00:00:30 I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction. And this is Anatomy of Murder. In some of the cases we cover, tragedy strikes over or during a holiday weekend, a time where families gather to celebrate. And for them, each subsequent anniversary of that tragedy is a reminder of a terrible pain to lose someone, especially to a violent crime. Today's case is no different. It's Thanksgiving week, 2003.
Starting point is 00:01:07 Harry Williams, and along with his wife Wilma, and three children with his family had big plans for that week, and they had their routine down pat. I'm the cook of the family. My daughter was found in my footsteps. Sherita loves to cook. She loves to cook.
Starting point is 00:01:24 And I love showing her how to cook. But Sherita loves to cook. She loves to cook. And I love showing her how to cook. Well, Sharita loves the yams. I would put it in the oven and everything, but she would prepare everything, and that was her glory. The sweet potatoes. Harry and his wife had three children. They had two daughters and a son.
Starting point is 00:01:40 Their middle daughter, Sharita, was 16 years old in 2003. She had an older sister and a younger brother. Sherita always brought a smile to your face when you was around her. She was like the catalyst of the family. I love it best, his nickname for her, Sunshine. The reason why they called Sherita Sunshine was because every time she came around, it just lit up the place and people would be smiling and she would be smiling.
Starting point is 00:02:08 She just put sunshine to the area, I guess. I don't know. My daughter was such a good girl. She had a lot of friends. She was interested in the things that normal teenagers are, which is her clothing and the nail polish and the way that she did her hair. She loved taking pictures. She loved to show off her clothes, and she was very meticulous about her looks.
Starting point is 00:02:30 The Williams live in Pensacola, New Jersey, which is just outside of Philadelphia. It's like a blue-collar neighborhood. I mean, you have some of the areas that are more affluent than others, but Pensacola, generally, is a very good township. Murders were unheard of. We didn't have crime here, per se. And everyone knows that Thanksgiving's a Thursday, and the next Friday, we know it by Black Friday.
Starting point is 00:02:59 And it's a day that people shop. And whether it's online or in person, it is known to be an extremely busy day with people out and about. And for Sherita, that was her next day to kind of just get out. It was about maybe like 5 o'clock. She was going out the door, and her mom told her, Sherita, be careful out there. And she told my wife, Mom, I turned 16. I'm fine. Nobody's going to bother me. And I truly thought that. I heard that. And then she went out to work. And as it turns out, Harry is a member of law enforcement. Harry works as a correction officer at a local prison. So for him, it meant putting on a badge, a uniform, and a gun,
Starting point is 00:03:49 and going to a prison for his night shift. When I came home, my wife said, Harry, said what? Sherita didn't come home last night. What do you mean Sherita didn't come home last night? Anyone, doesn't matter if you have kids or not, just hearing that a child has not come home overnight, a child that never before has done something like this, you could just imagine the fear factor running through their minds. That is something that no parent, let alone the parents
Starting point is 00:04:15 of a 16-year-old, wants to hear. They know their daughter. They know this is not normal. I started thinking the worst. I don't know what happened to my daughter, not normal. We started calling around for her, and nobody knew nothing about my daughter, about whereabouts or where she had been or anything like that. No one had seen Sherita after she left the nail salon at 5.30. We called the Pensacola Police Department to make a missing persons report. Mind you, I mean, it hadn't been 24 hours, but my daughter didn't do this. They said they would take the report, but, you know, maybe she ran away or something. Run away from what?
Starting point is 00:05:11 You know, Harry is communicating with officers, and of course the important information is, who is her circle of friends? Where do you believe she may be? And then, what would lead you to believe, Harry, something is really wrong here? More than just the fact that you know your daughter's habits and she may not have run away, that she may just be in trouble. And Harry prevailed on them. They took that report. But, you know, as you hear Harry speak, he is a realist. You know, and I know when a missing person's report is taken, that's all that's taken.
Starting point is 00:05:45 Ain't gonna be no big investigation of where she's been or, you know, if she happens to pop up. Me and my wife only had one recourse. It was to go look for our daughter ourselves. So obviously Harry, being a member of law enforcement, has a sense to himself that bad things do happen. And quickly, he wanted to be able to go out and begin a search, himself and his family. As we all know, those first hours are critical if something indeed bad is going on. So the first real lead came when one of Sherita's friends
Starting point is 00:06:18 called investigators to say that Sherita had a new crush on a boy who lived in the city of Camden, which was just over the 36th Street Bridge. His name was Greg. Greg was a young man that my daughter had an interest in. She really liked this guy, Greg. Now, his like for her, it may not have been mutual, but she actually liked Greg.
Starting point is 00:06:41 Charita wanted to buy him a birthday gift, and I went and bought him a fishing pole. That was my only meeting with Greg. I didn't, you know, talk to him or anything after that. I really didn't get involved with my kids' feelings. I just didn't question, well, who is he? Who's his dad? Who's his mom? What does his dad do? What does his mom do?
Starting point is 00:07:01 I thought that they had the right state of mind. And, you know, she's 16 years old, you know. She's having a normal 16-year-old relationship. So the first thing that Harry wanted to do was to go to where Greg lived. I went to his house, and his mother came to the door. I was in uniform. She said, well, can I help you? I said, well, I'm looking for my daughter, Sherita Williams.
Starting point is 00:07:23 Was she here? And she told me, yeah, she was here. But I turned her away. I was like, you turned her away? Yeah, I turned her away because my son was asleep, and he didn't want to be bothered. Now, you know, it was raining outside. It was definitely a Black Friday.
Starting point is 00:07:41 Basically, she told me she didn't like my daughter anyway. So I said, which way did she leave when she left here? She pointed towards the river road. She went that way. So, you know, I went down that way and looked around, you know, couldn't find nothing. Once home, Sharita's mom all of a sudden has, whether you call it an epiphany, a premonition, I think of it as a mother's intuition. She said she's got a gut feeling that she knows where Sherita is, and she races out the door. And that gut feeling provides the answer to where their daughter was. Well, this is one of the most mystifying things that could ever happen.
Starting point is 00:08:37 Later on that day, about two o'clock, my wife said, Hey, I'm going back over that bridge. There's something about that bridge. What you mean there's something about that bridge? I'm going back over that bridge. Maybe she got hit and rolled over the side of the bridge? She's not really sure, but she thinks the bridge is involved in some way. But she didn't know if it was Sherita. She said, I don't think it was Sherita. You were about to hear portions of that 911 call. And now, the quality of the audio is not great, so listen closely as Sherita's mom tells the operator
Starting point is 00:09:21 that her daughter is missing, but she found a dead body under the bridge, and she does not think it's Sherita's mom tells the operator that her daughter is missing, but she found a dead body under the bridge, and she does not think it's Sherita. My daughter's missing, and she walked over this bridge last night with a dead body under there, but it ain't her. I'm not fucking looking for my daughter. Yeah, it did look like Sherita, but it was a young girl. In my mind, I said that's Sherita.
Starting point is 00:09:42 So Harry and other family members quickly arrived to the crime scene, but police already have the entire scene taped off. Once I got there, there was one on the scene at the time, and he was basically secure in the area. And I wanted to see my daughter, and of course, he wouldn't let me see my daughter. He had to hold me back a little bit, because that's my daughter. That might be my daughter. I let me see my daughter. He had to hold me back a little bit because that's my daughter.
Starting point is 00:10:06 That might be my daughter. I need to see my daughter. Keep in mind, this is an active crime scene. I mean, there hasn't been any identification of the body. So while he thinks that it's Sherita, it very well may not be her. But if it was her, even then, there's potential evidence there. Police don't want that messed with at all. They don't want any contamination. And they certainly don't want there to be any open attack by the defense if they ever get that far.
Starting point is 00:10:29 So while you can certainly understand from the father's perspective that he wants to get in there, investigators, they need to keep that crime scene line hard and fast and protect the investigation. So by that time, the detectives came over, Billy Wheeler and a couple of other officers there. They said, Harry, come on, let's take a walk. And I said, all right, I'll take a walk with you guys. But, um, yeah, I need to know if that's my daughter. Look, Harry, we'll tell you that. We need you to leave the scene right now.
Starting point is 00:10:58 You know, we can't have you like this. So I'm there. The officers that were there, they just happened to be the same officers who took the missing persons report just the day earlier. The police are examining the body under the bridge. So the victim had a black bandana-type cloth around her neck. Her hands were tied behind her back with a cloth that was apparently ripped off her jacket. And even though she still had her jeans on, her underwear was missing. Her cause of death was quickly revealed.
Starting point is 00:11:30 It was asphyxiation. Two plastic bags had been stuffed down her throat. Now, those officers on the scene who had taken the original report quickly discovered that the clothing the deceased woman is wearing matches the description of Sherita during that missing persons report. So they know this dead woman is 16-year-old Sherita Williams.
Starting point is 00:11:56 And then they take Sherita's mom and put her in the back of a squad car. My wife was in the back of the police car. Because mind you, you have to understand that the same people that made the report about a missing person is the same people that found my daughter. So red flags went up, according to them. Right after we found my daughter, we became the number one suspect. For police, it came down to this. The parents had filed a missing persons report at 10 a.m. Saturday morning. the number one suspect. For police, it came down to this.
Starting point is 00:12:27 The parents had filed a missing persons report at 10 a.m. Saturday morning. And then it's them that find the body at just after three. And right away, their radar went up. While everyone says, and I certainly say, like, how awful. These parents are finding out that their daughter is dead, murdered under a bridge. And now they're being looked at as suspects, number one.
Starting point is 00:12:55 But let's take a step sideways here for a second, Scott, because how many times, unfortunately, have we seen on the news the grieving parents? Think of the Chris Watts scenario, that they're up there searching for their significant others, their children, and then you find out in the end that they were the ones responsible all along. You know, in any homicide investigation, it's SOP or standard operating procedure to look at the people closest to the victim. You guys have all heard that so many times. But as investigators, you're keeping your options wide open, and then you narrow the field of suspects with facts and evidence. The first to be questioned was the parents of Sherita, Harry and Wilma Williams. He came over to me and, you know, asked me a question. He said, Harry, who did you have kill your daughter?
Starting point is 00:13:47 Scott, while everyone's saying this is awful, the parents are being looked at, let's talk the realities here, or just even from your perspective, why it is that Harry and his wife seem suspicious to police. Sherita's own mom was the one who finds the body under the bridge. And that is a very unusual situation where a family member finds the deceased. So I think they were thinking there could be some connection to that, and they just wanted to follow the evidence. I mean, if we didn't go looking for my daughter, my daughter would probably still have been there for who knows how long. And then it came to the point where maybe we need a lawyer.
Starting point is 00:14:33 I decided to not do that because we didn't do anything wrong. Parents going down to a precinct in a homicide case of their child, there's nothing unusual about that, right? It happens all the time because they are going to be some of the ones to be giving the initial information. But it was handled quite differently here because they weren't just questioned. Harry's wife was given a computerized voice stress analyzation test. Now, we've talked about this test before, which is sort of like a polygraph, but it uses waves and patterns of your voice to try to determine whether you're being truthful or not. And that is a forward-leaning step in this investigation, and it really made the family super uncomfortable. What they did was they gave my wife the voice stress analyzer, you know,
Starting point is 00:15:14 and I leave the area. When I come back, my wife is in tears. So I said, well, what's wrong? And she said, they said that I know what happened to our daughter. So now I'm like, well, I know my wife didn't have anything to do with this. You know, people have their views on polygraphs and the reason they're not admissible in court. Well, these voice analyzer tests or VSAs, as they're called, and many people will say that it's 50-50 when it comes to accuracy at best. But really what it's used for and what you hope for is that by putting that down in the
Starting point is 00:15:51 room and telling someone that their voice is going to be analyzed for changes in pattern that can ferret out deception, well, that's going to hopefully at least deter lying. After the parents were done with their interview with police, they went back home only to get a phone call from investigators with news. He said, yeah, hey, the voice stress analyzer came up wrong. We put it through the computer and she's fine. Detectives did return back to the scene under that bridge to re-canvass for more evidence. And that search yielded two big clues. The underwear we talked about was thrown into a grassy area next to the bridge. And a second clue, a Modell sporting goods receipt,
Starting point is 00:16:37 which matched the plastic bags found stuffed down her throat. And the receipt was dated the same day of the homicide. And those receipts lead investigators to Modell's. But on that specific day, the cameras weren't working. And further to that, remember, it's Black Friday. There's thousands of people here. The employee, they questioned, said, we really don't remember seeing anybody at that time,
Starting point is 00:17:04 which is indicated on the receipt. So unfortunately for investigators, that was a dead end. So investigators went back to the timeline to piece together who Sherita had seen. She had left on Friday and gone to the salon. And now she left the salon at about 5.30 p.m. And when she left, she said she was going to meet up with Greg, who lived only a short distance from where her body was found. Now, in the interview with Greg's family, police were able to confirm that Charita had, in fact, arrived at his house. But they would also uncover more evidence that would now make Greg their prime suspect. I just know that she went over to see him, and now she's missing.
Starting point is 00:17:48 Greg's mom told investigators that he had been working all day and was sleeping now, getting ready for an overnight job. But when investigators did get an opportunity to question Greg, Greg told investigators that Charita was constantly calling him throughout the night. And phone records backed up that story. First of all, they told me that my daughter must have called Greg 15 times. So apparently he must have been hanging up
Starting point is 00:18:11 or wouldn't answer the phone. Greg told investigators that he had turned the phone off so he can continue to sleep. But as it turns out, he wasn't being truthful. One of those calls connected. Police were able to determine that Greg, in fact, was able to answer other calls and it proved that he was not
Starting point is 00:18:31 being truthful in that statement. And if he's lying about their conversation, why? She had a recording on her phone. On the recording, the head of my daughter said, stop hitting me. Why are you hitting me? Now I'm really thinking that Greg did this.
Starting point is 00:19:00 I thought that Greg did this. For her to tell me that, yeah, my daughter was there and we sent her away, I'm like, well, why didn't you let my daughter in the house and call our home? I would have came and got my daughter. It was raining outside. It was cold outside. And you're just going to send this young lady out without even giving her a phone call? In my mind, that's why I thought I did it.
Starting point is 00:19:22 So police really wanted to know more. What was Greg hiding? Did he have a reason not to be truthful? And so they went back and looked at other pieces of evidence. When Sherita's clothing was examined in more detail by criminalists in the police lab, they found a stain on her jeans. That stain being possibly semen. They analyzed it for DNA.
Starting point is 00:19:43 And sure enough, they came up with a profile. So what did they do? So for me, the first stop would be, hey, Greg, can we get a sample to eliminate you as a suspect? I'm knocking on his door. They asked Greg for a sample to see if they had a match. He did give a sample, and the evidence proved that he was eliminated as a suspect. It was not his DNA. I didn't have anywhere else to go. I didn't have anything.
Starting point is 00:20:13 I clearly thought that, you know, Greg and his family were involved in this. It was a big question mark. So now investigators know that Greg is not a match for the sample, but they still have an opportunity to enter that sample into CODIS. And as most of you know, CODIS is the national database that if someone's sample has been uploaded for one of many reasons, job applications, prior criminal history, that then sometimes you get a match. But when they uploaded that sample, it came back nothing. So without a match on CODIS and without any other evidence pointing to any other suspects, we have a cold case. You don't push it, your case will become cold. I would contact Martin Wolf. He was the lead
Starting point is 00:21:01 investigator. I would call him every Monday about my daughter's case. Because we were suspects, we wasn't privy to anything. And it's not weeks, it's not months. We're now leading into years. And during those years, you know, police had looked at Harry and his wife, but now they hear the rumors on the street. It was a rough time for us. I mean, people actually thought my wife killed my daughter because that's how I was out there. on the street. Let's talk about that, Scott, because I think it's one of the things that unfortunately people don't think much about during these investigations, which is all the other freefall, if you will,
Starting point is 00:21:47 of badness sometimes, and here to the victim's own family. So with any open investigation, it's just that, it's open. Everybody remains on their radar until they're not. Especially for family members, they're grieving the loss of their daughter here, but people in the neighborhood still want to know, was this something that happened with the family themselves?
Starting point is 00:22:08 Or is there a random killer out there? The difficulty of the years passing and the difficulty of remaining on the police suspects list to your own daughter's murder is just difficult to deal with. It was hard for us to grieve about my daughter because even today, when someone brings that case up, somebody will go, well, yeah, it was the mother. I guess I really think about it when thinking about the family as the additional burden they have to bear. I mean, my son had to go to school. He would hear this from teachers in my school.
Starting point is 00:22:47 You know, my son always noticed people looking at him. He didn't know, understand why people were always looking at him. And people are going to always talk about you if they can. In the back rooms, they talk bad about you. But when you're together, they look at you in smile. There's a lot of backstabbing that goes on in life. And this family, to their credit, they kept up the pressure they would not back down. You know, at the beginning of any homicide investigation, you're starting with a wide net and then you're narrowing down to a potential list of suspects. And when your list gets crossed off
Starting point is 00:23:38 one by one, you got to go back to that wide net. And when you have a girl 16 in high school, you have to then start to reach out to anyone she interacted with on a daily basis. But when you think about teenagers, sometimes they have a life much bigger than what their family knows. And that really makes this suspect pool much, much bigger and more difficult of a case to crack. I mean, that's what takes real gumshoe, as they call it, work to get done. Pounding the pavement, talking to friends, talking to teachers,
Starting point is 00:24:15 talking to anybody who may have had a daily contact with Sherita to determine, is there someone there missing? Is there a person? If it's not a random crime, who could it be? And for years on the anniversary of her death, the Williams family would hold a vigil. Every year after my daughter was murdered, we would have a march. And we would march down 36th Street and go over the bridge and march back. Every year we did that because I thought that the
Starting point is 00:24:45 press was going to play a big part. And the reason why I thought that was the more information that I gave them and the more coverage that they gave me, it came on TV. It put it out there, which kept pressure on the prosecutor's office to do their job. Because I told Marty a few times, that's Martin Wolf, he's the lead investigator, that he needs to take the slippers, take those slippers off his feet and put them shoes back on and go back out there and find out what's going on with my daughter. And as the years are ticking by,
Starting point is 00:25:17 investigators aren't just leaving that box on the shelf. I mean, they are making repeated checks of CODIS because as we all know, DNA keeps getting added in and going out and trying to re-interview people. They're coming up with nothing until February 1st, 2007. Three years later, they finally get a hit. And that hit turns out to be someone Sherita knew. So now it's February 1st, 2007, three years after the brutal murder of Sharita. The big break.
Starting point is 00:25:58 A codicil of the DNA found on Sharita's jeans. His name was Warren Dixon. Police described him as a low-level drug dealer who had just been convicted in Philadelphia on a drug charge. Warren Dixon committing a couple crimes over in Philadelphia. His DNA
Starting point is 00:26:15 never came up. But now police needed to build a case against Dixon, including putting him in the area of the night of the murder. And here's one of these interesting sideway facts that you never know if it's going to be something and now all of a sudden it's more meaningful. You know, Harry describes that he had heard this name before. Warren Dixon's friend, who is my wife's friend, Warren told this kid that, you know, he got away with the murder of my daughter. That information got back to me.
Starting point is 00:26:49 I went to the county prosecutor's office and told them about it. In Harry's mind, it's all coming together. But for police, they know they need to build a much stronger case. And they really need to dig in, who was Warren D Dixon and can they connect him to Sherita. So another big red flag for investigators was after visiting the high school, they learned that just days after the homicide, Dixon, who went to the school with Sherita,
Starting point is 00:27:15 had just dropped out and he disappeared. And they go looking for him and they get the U.S. Marshals involved and they find out that his mom actually lives near where Sherita was killed, underneath that 36th Street Bridge. Now, we do have a portion of his interview from 2007 where he doesn't deny knowing Sherita, but he does deny his involvement in the murder. It was school together, so it's not wrong to say I'm a little girl. You know what I'm saying?
Starting point is 00:27:43 Because it could have been a school night, you know what I'm saying? It could have been a week out. How the f*** am I supposed to know? So during his interview, Dixon was trying to explain the DNA when he was confronted by it, saying they were romantically involved. He even stated to police during that interview that he had given her the black bandana. And if you do remember us describing the crime scene, a black bandana was found wrapped around her neck. It could be one. You know what I'm saying? If that's what the hair sample's for, if they do come back one, there's nothing to lie about, man. You feel me?
Starting point is 00:28:19 After a lot of back and forth with investigators, there did come a dramatic turn in this interrogation. Dixon posed a question to investigators. If I killed her by accident, would I still have to go to jail? And as the prosecutor, that's the exact line I want to hear. Right there, that is an admission like any other admission, because we all know the way that young woman's body was found, it was no accident. And I think, I'm going to back up a second to the interview. How difficult is it for a suspect to walk something back like that in the process of making that type of admission?
Starting point is 00:28:57 You can't. Once you say something, it lives there forever. Now, while you may try to explain it, and sometimes there is a reasonable explanation when you give context to something someone says, but just think about that line. If I did kill her, but it was an accident, will I go to jail? How on earth do you ever walk that back? And in this case, I don't see how you can, no matter what family was never involved in this homicide. They had my wife give me a call, told me, Harry, they got investigators at the house. They need to talk to you.
Starting point is 00:29:53 So I flew over here. I came in and they looked at me and they said, we got good news. I said, well, what's the news? What do you guys have? They said, here's the warrant for Warren Dixon's arrest. I started crying. It was like a relief cry. And that is the shame of it and also the relief. Because the shame of it is that they had to live with this cloud over their heads, on top of their grief for all these years.
Starting point is 00:30:27 But the relief of it is now they have an answer. Now they have someone hopefully being held accountable for their daughter's murder. I want to take a moment to say something that I believe needs to be said. It is common knowledge that in a homicide investigation, the first to be looked at by police are the ones closest to the victim, usually the family members. And when evidence points you in a different direction, you follow it. And when those people are cleared, I believe it's important for investigators to be upfront about their reasons and willing to answer any lingering questions about it. And while those conversations do happen in some cases, in my mind, they must happen.
Starting point is 00:31:09 There was a lot of people involved that had an interest in my daughter's case. People were still thinking that my wife killed my daughter. I mean, it was totally crazy the way people were thinking and what was really happening. I mean, Harry felt like his family, essentially, totally crazy the way people were thinking and what was really happening. I mean, Harry felt like his family essentially was targeted.
Starting point is 00:31:33 But he also knew that the journey wasn't over. And he wanted to keep a positive vibe, so to speak, with prosecutors, with investigators, because now we have a suspect, Warren Dixon. He's made an admission, but we still need to get over the finish line. Because while he's arrested, that's far from any type of conviction. So then the question is, will there be a trial? And in this case, the answer would be no. They said, okay, all right, he wants to take a plea deal. Warren Dixon's attorney went to the prosecutors and they discussed the possibility of a plea deal. Warren Dixon's attorney went to the prosecutors and they discussed the possibility of a plea deal.
Starting point is 00:32:08 His attorney said, and they wanted 10 years for her murder. And homicide prosecutors, they came back and countered with 20. And it isn't even a murder charge. It's a manslaughter charge. And for Harry and his family, that was a really hard pill to swallow. I told them that I wanted to do life. Sometimes the sentence does not fit the crime. And the reason why they told me they didn't want to do a trial was because the judge that was on the case had let some other criminals go and they didn't want to trust the judge.
Starting point is 00:32:46 Now again, what someone actually pleads guilty to versus what they're charged with versus even the crime that was committed, sometimes it's a question of semantics, of a way of arriving at that number and letting it be a legal plea deal. And that's what it certainly sounded like here. But also as part of that plea deal,
Starting point is 00:33:02 in exchange for pleading guilty and getting the 20 years, he had to answer questions about the murder. He said that he had sex with Sherita, that she didn't want to, and that they struggled, and that it was during that struggle that he claimed his mind went blank. Did she consent to have sex with you? No. As a result of that, did it struggle itself? Yes. You understand she died from that? Yes. So as a former homicide prosecutor at a Sego, do you think this was a just plea deal? You think the terms were fair to all sides?
Starting point is 00:34:05 I think it's really hard unless you actually are in it and know every single fact. And no matter how much research we did, we weren't the actual investigator, prosecutor. So many factors go into that. The one thing a plea deal gets is that it gets you certainty. And while I absolutely understand Harry's perspective and his family saying that no amount of time would ever be enough, I want life or nothing, 20 years is not enough for the life of my daughter. I get that 100%. But I also know that sometimes we are never sure ultimately of what a jury is going to do. And then you never know what an appellate court is going to do in
Starting point is 00:34:43 the appeals process with the case. The thing about a plea deal is that there is no more rights to appeal. That is it. It is game over for that amount of time. And that gives you certainty and at least knows that you get justice as far as the accountability and you at least get that amount of time. And if we're talking 20 to 25 years, it certainly sounds, at least in the reasonable realm, based on what I know. For me, this case talks about a young girl, a 16-year-old who had dreams. She was going to go to college. She was going to become a social worker. She was warm, funny, kind. She will never realize those dreams, the victim of a senseless murder.
Starting point is 00:35:26 I'm going to tell you something. I'm going to tell you something I used to do when my daughter first died. I used to smell her clothes. You may think that's weird, but believe me, it's not. I couldn't be with her person, but I could smell her perfume that she used to wear. That's something that I used to do. I'd just go to her grave site and sit with her for a minute or two, and I'd leave and wait until the next time I go back.
Starting point is 00:35:54 I was just up there the other day. And for Harry, the way that he forever remembers the holidays, it sticks with me every time when I think about the words that he said. Black Friday is a good name for that Friday because it was black for us. I mean, we have a Thanksgiving Day meal. Everything's so close to what happened on these two days. It's hard to get by them.
Starting point is 00:36:21 And when I think about this case, I think about actually what our executive producer, Sumit David, said, is that there's this saying that sometimes people die twice. First, when they actually die. And the second is that when people stop saying their name. in this interview how happy he is to talk about his daughter to anyone that asks. That reminds me of why it is so important for us to keep telling their stories. Anytime I get a chance to talk about my daughter, I love to talk about my daughter because it brings her back to life to me. I mean, because even after 16, we couldn't say nothing about my daughter.
Starting point is 00:37:05 But yet, it's 17 years later, and here I am talking to you about my daughter. I always thought my daughter was going to do something big. And in essence, she did. She opened up a lot of people's eyes about this criminal activity. And she just wasn't here to enjoy it with us. Tune in next Wednesday when we'll dissect another new case on Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original, a Weinberger Media and Forseti Media Production,
Starting point is 00:37:47 Sumit David is executive producer.

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