Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Alessia Cara

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Alessia Cara. Cara made an exceptional introduction with 2015’s “Here,” a sultry anthem dedicated to introverts who feel lost at house parties. Since then, she’s racked up billions of streams and bagged a Grammy for Best New Artist, becoming the first Canadian musician to earn the award. This past Valentine’s Day, Cara returned with her fourth studio album, Love & Hyperbole, a collection brimming with romance, personal growth, and more adventurous sounds. In a conversation with Madden, the singer opens up about her songwriting process, what inspires her the most, and her latest record. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly on this episode. I'm talking with Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter and artist Alessiakara. Let's go. I don't have to. Is it the Warhol? Yeah, the Warhol Campbell suit. Those are cool, right? Yeah. Couldn't throw those away. Crazy. Couldn't throw those away just in case you need to color something. You're going to throw away a Campbell's Soup, Warhol thing? they did that was probably like five bucks but yeah oh my god that's so funny i have the exact same thing just makes me smile inside exactly i love it well thanks for having me thanks for coming no problem how's it

i'm good i'm good how are you i'm great i'm so happy you're here i'm happy to be here tell me about the the record who produced it um a few different people um mike elizondo who's amazing i can hear that i haven't worked with him but i've worked with him but i've worked with him with other artists and known him over the years. And he's just so musical and great, like sonically great. Yeah. He's such a good producer and musician.

He is. Yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. I love him. And he's, like, so great with so many different genres, right? Like, he, like, worked under Dre. So he's done, like, so much hip-hop stuff. So he's super well-versed and, like, a really, you know,

like hip-hop drums and that sort of feel and the hip-hop bass. But then he's, you know, classically trained. And he's done, like, rock stuff. So he's amazing. He brought like so much to the album. And then I also worked with a bunch of different people. I worked with Greg Kirsten. I worked with John Levine.

I worked with Jacob. Buddy Ross, a bunch of different people. And then we just kind of like meshed everyone together to create this like thing that I love so much. I feel like it sounds like all the music that I love to listen to as a music fan and sort of like finding my lane within that, which is cool. It's so good.

Thank you. It's so good. Oh, thank you. much. I love it. Oh, really? I love the record. I love the album. I think it's like hearing someone, I mean, you're four records in. It's not like you're some developing artists, but we're always like developing, like, as artists. We're always like, can we grow? Can we, I don't know, like, what do I sound like now versus two years ago versus eight years ago? It's so nice to hear a record that feels like someone wasn't afraid to make a record that they felt like they needed to make

or that they wanted to make versus like, I don't know, like, I can hear sometimes on records when someone feels like someone's, I don't want to say scared because it sounds like judgey, because I'm not judging anyone, but like, it's a lot of pressure when you're just trying to follow up and continue to build and continue to grow, but also like you have success and then you're, and then you're kind of like, almost like working against that success sometimes, like, like, against like, and to put that out and make a record is really hard. And it feels like you did on this record. It feels like you just made a really, it's just a great record.

Oh my God. Thank you so much. And sonically, it's so good. Thank you. It's badass. I love that. Who played drums on it? Again, a couple different people.

We had Yakka playing drums. We had a great musician all around him, Max Townsley, Trevor. Lawrence, Jr., a bunch of different people. But, like, I just worked with, like, a ton of great musicians. Right. Great producers, but, you know, that are also amazing musicians and, like, either classically trained or just, like, well-versed in a bunch of different instruments, because I really wanted this album to feel, like, very musical.

It's so musical. Okay, good. That's the first thing I, that's the first takeaway I had was the songs are great. The vocals are amazing. Thank you. But the, all of it, the musicality of. of it is so good. It's really impressive. Thank you. I'm so, I'm so glad that you think so.

Because, yeah, I worked super hard on it. It took me, like, almost three years to make. And, I mean, I'm glad now in hindsight that I did take that time. Because sometimes you just have to, like, throw a bunch of darts at the board, see what, you know, you're really feeling. And I don't know. I'm not. I'm Anna Mena. And, like my music, my my hair changes

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but of who are I'm glad that I granted myself the time to do that. Because sometimes when you're, like you said, when you're working like under pressure, you just maybe might compromise or just kind of rush something just for sake of like staying, you know, around so people still care or whatever or. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's real. It's like, what if I'm not relevant in a, like the way that time moves? I think that real artists are always relevant. I think so, too. If you just make your art. But it's, it's pressure because everybody's saying, well, we ought to get something out. We better get something out.

And it's scary when you think like, or what? What'll happen if I don't? I don't. Yeah. But you kind of just have to bet on yourself and just, I mean, you did in the beginning for anyone who you were. That's true. And you kind of always have to go back to that, I think, and just go, I want to make what

I want to make. But not everybody gets to do that. Like some people are in situations where they do get pressured. And so to hear this record, I was like, this is really refreshing. Thank you. it's not that everything you have made before wasn't great either. It's just hearing someone out, try to outdo it is, it's nice. It's not like, it's like not trying to replicate, trying to beat is like a thing.

And I just think that this is, I think this record's going to carry you places. And I think you're going to really enjoy like the freedom you get from making this record. Thank you. Because it's such a legit record. It's one of the best records I've heard in a long time. Really? Oh my gosh. That's so nice.

It's coming from you. I'm like so happy that you that you think that's so sweet. No, what do I know? No, what do you mean? I'm not saying I know. No, but you do. And honestly, like, the compliments that really like that I feel the most is from other musicians because you get it. Yeah, other artists. Like, you know, it's like that saying where they say like comedians play to the back of the room and who's at the back of the room, other comedians. You know, it's the same thing. Like getting the respect from your peers just means so much because you get it and you understand and I trust your taste. And so that's like the most incredible thing ever. happy that you think that because I really worked hard on it and it really does feel like the record

for me that where I just had like freedom and I wasn't trying to prove anything. I wasn't rushing anything. I was just like I just want to make something that I love without expectation and it really just like untethered me and I was able to just like try stuff, you know? And the beauty of trying stuff is like if you don't like it, no one has to hear it, you know? So just keep trying and don't worry about like, I don't know what like how long it takes. You know, so I'm really glad that I that I allowed myself the time and the grace and patience to just like make something that I'm super proud of. I'm happy for you. Thank you.

It's really nice. It's great. I really love it. If you could pick a song on the record that you'd want everyone to hear, to sample the record, which song would you say is like a song you'd want? If everyone got to listen to one song, what song would you put up first? Oh my gosh, that's so hard because they're all so like sonically different. They are different.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, it's so hard. I mean, there are a few. I think there's a song called Fire that I'm super proud of. It's, like, very stripped. Lyrically, it's, like, very different for me, just subject matter-wise. It's, like, just, like, strictly a love song without any, like, fear attached to it or any insecurity.

It's just, like, a love letter, which is very different for me. And that's very much what the album is about. It's about, like, finding that feeling. So that would be one. There's a song called Obvious that I really love as well. It feels like it, you know, just like a groovy. I just love where it sits sonically. Yeah.

So. I like Get to you. I love Get to you. I'm sure you would like get to you, the little rock moment. Yeah. I was so like excited to do that because I've never done anything like that. But I was like, we got to take it there. It's really good.

And I've been in rehearsals for tour. So doing that one live is like, oh my God. Do you play? I do. I play guitar. Yeah. Super well, but it's enough for me to just like, yeah. Distortion.

Yeah. Doesn't matter. Exactly. I play guitar. not very well, but I still play. Like, when we play live, I'll play sometimes, and it doesn't sound, I'm not as good as like my brother or our other guitar player, but it's still fine. Yeah.

Just mix it in. Yeah. You get by. Once you're just headbagging, you sell it. Yeah. And you're probably better than the average guitar player, so. Oh my gosh. I don't know.

Maybe. It's enough for me to write music. Yeah. And I'm like a chord, yeah. Like, good at chords. I can't, like, shred, but maybe yet. Yeah. I don't really, I don't know.

You don't have to. Get to you was, I don't know if it's my favorite, but it was one of my, like, favorite moments that I was like, oh, look, we could play this song. I was like, can we cover this song? Yes. It's really good. Really? Yeah, it's good.

Thank you. Oh my God, yes, please cover it. Do you start songs on guitar or do you start them on piano? On guitar, if I'm writing, like, totally on my own guitar, I just find that it's, I don't know, just easier. I can, I have more range. I'm not really like a super great pianist, so. Guitar is like usually my starting point.

I used to write on ukulele when I was like a lot younger when I first started writing music weirdly, but then I felt like it was kind of limiting. So I do guitar now. And then for this album, I tried to just like go in the studio with nothing written and just like starting with like drums. I find that like rhythm helps me write a lot.

So like especially for this album, I started with drums, which is interesting because usually, you know, you kind of need chords. But I feel like when you set the tone with drums and the pace that you're going to go, like the mood just changes. So drums are something that have,

I don't know, I've been enjoying starting with, I don't know, if that's like an abnormal thing. No. It's been working for me. I feel like that sometimes. Like I'll come up with like a beat or a rhythm in my head.

I don't play the drums, so I have to go in and be like, I got this idea for this like beat. And then I'll write to it. I love that. Yeah, it's, I don't know. It's kind of,

it just like sets the tone. It helps you like, or at least me, like come up with a concept or a mood when I'm very driven by like rhythm. And like for me the drums too, like they create the moments in the show. So a lot of times I've thought of songs with drum beats because I wanted to create like a live moment that felt. I was going to say, do you write like with the live show in mind?

Yeah, always. Yeah. I did that a lot on this record too. And I think maybe because like a lot of the like, it's like 95% live instrumentation this time. So maybe that's the reason that I was thinking of that. because I was like in the room with musicians and we were playing everything live. So I just really kept that in mind. And that's really helped me craft like the world.

That's actually the first thing I thought about when I listened to the record was like, I bet they recorded a, I bet you they recorded this live. It sounds live. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Oh, I love that. Thank you so much.

Are you excited to play it out on the road? I am. I haven't been on the road in years. I didn't get to tour my last album. It came out in 2021 because of obviously pandemic world shutting down. So that sucks. Yeah, it sucks. So I have just been like sitting on a bunch of music ready to get it out.

And I'm so glad that it's like with this album though because again, like it's just like meant to be played live. So I'm super excited. Yeah, it's a lie. It feels live. Yeah. Yeah. I'm super excited. Do you love singing live?

I do love singing live. Yeah. It's actually, it's pretty fun. I mean, tour itself can be like draining. Yeah. Especially on my on my voice because I never really did like vocal lessons. And so I don't even know if I'm like using the right parts of my body to sing. I just kind of do it.

I'm the same. Really? Yeah. I get so hoarse. Do you find like you have like a grace period of like a couple shows and then it? Well, we haven't toured in years, but we're talking about a big tour next year and anything over like five or ten shows. Because that's like what we've been. I mean, we haven't toured in probably seven or eight years.

And then we played one show two years ago. And now we're doing like five shows this year. not worried about those. I'm fine. But three days in a row, four days in a row. We usually do like five shows on a day off type thing. Oh, wow. You go pretty hard.

Oh, man. Okay. Yeah, that's like a lot. Usually by like the 10th show, if I haven't lost my voice somewhere in there, I'll lose my voice. And then I have to do like, I'll just take a, whatever those things called, prednisone. Oh, you do like a steroid?

Just a pill. Oh, yeah, you can do it in a pill. It's terrible. What are the effects of it? Well, long term, it's not good to do if you're like a career singer, but we used to do hundreds of shows a year. We don't do that. I don't think we're ever going to do that ever again.

I think max we do like 50 shows max. Yeah, it's intense. You know, because we were just like back in the day, it was, I don't know if it was different or not, but like we were just like a touring band. We do hundreds of shows a year, 300 shows a year, 250 shows a year, like on a normal year. So my voice got a lot of stamina If I had been doing that back then I don't think it would have

I think it would probably damage my voice But I only started doing that when I got older Because we weren't playing enough shows And I was like I'm not gonna have If we're playing 30 shows this year I'm not gonna have five where I don't have a voice So I'm just gonna take the prednis zone Why not? It's bad though

I know but they tell me it's bad Yeah that's what they say And it also makes me feel like I'm a drug user Because I'm not a drug user but prednisone doesn't give you any like any kind of high it keeps you up you feel like energetic after the show like you it's hard to sleep on it really because i know they use it for like uh gut issues right yeah when you're sick it's like steroids it's like yeah they give it to you when you have like some kind of like illness or something but it also works magic when you have a horse voice

just suddenly comes back a little tip there's a drug out there called prednisone. It's been around the while. Yes. It'll work. That's why it's like like singers you lose their voices. I always kind of go like take brendazone. Some people don't do it.

Like it's, it's a cheating or something. I didn't know you just could. I didn't know like you just could do like a one off. I thought it was like something you had to do like long term. I'm not even going to tell everyone where I get it. But I get it from my doctor. I say I'm going out on the road just in case. Most of the time I don't need it if I'm going.

going for a few shows, but anything over four or five shows, I'm losing my voice the first, the first stent of it. And then when my voice comes back, it stays. But it's like a muscle, like gets sore or something. Like, yeah, you haven't used it in a while. That's what they say. They say you got to treat it like an athlete or something, which I am not. So it's hard. Do you warm up? I do. Not as much as I should, though. I don't warm up. Yeah, I really, I don't know why. I just like, I get so bored. I'm just like, I can't. Yeah. And I, because I started when I was like so young. I was like 18 and I had like my music director always trying to pull me in to do the warmups. It became like a grueling thing. Yeah you're like, I don't want to do

this. But now I kind of regret it because now I'm like I feel like I lose my voice so often and I don't know where I should be using it. But I am going to start taking lessons. So maybe for this tour. I am going to start taking prednisone zone. Actually, it's probably cheaper to take rednessone too. Probably both. What do I do to warm up? I do it. I just kind of like, do it. I just kind of like, a couple little tricks, a couple singers that I know taught me that do take vocal lessons. They're like, if you go like, it'll like loosen your vocal cords and separate them or whatever. That's the one I do. I guess hot tea works a little bit.

Yeah. Tea drinker though. I'm a little baby with tea. I just drink, I'll do like hot water, lemon and a little bit of honey. That's like my alternative for tea. But I'm like so annoying with tea. I'm just like, I don't like that taste of it. Not even like mint tea?

Camamamil? Camamil, no. Camamil's a worst for me. Really? Yeah, I don't know why. Jasmine? I've never had Jasmine. Maybe Jasmine. Maybe. If you don't like mint tea, you probably won't like Jasmine. I don't know what it is with tea.

Really? It's like, I don't know. The bag and like seeing the herbs, I'm like, just dirty water and then it makes my stomach feel weird. I don't know what it is. I've never heard that take on tea. Really? Yeah.

I don't know. I can't do it. I'm just like such a baby with it. Yeah, I don't know why. There's some fancier. like tea bags too you can get. Maybe it's like the seeing the earth. Like maybe I got to get like an opaque one

so I don't see the herbs. I don't know what it is. What do you drink the most in life? Water? Coffee. Yeah. I wish it was water. Coffee is my thing which also not good for your voice. I do all the wrong things that a singer. Like all the things a singer shouldn't do I do. That's really nice to hear. Really? Yeah.

Is it? Maybe. Well, you know. Why is it nice to hear? Because it's just, it's normal. Like I always thought I wasn't a real singer. Because I don't do all the stuff That you're like supposed to do Yeah, I feel that way too Because I don't know where

You're a real singer Like your voice is amazing Oh, thank you Thanks Not just like okay It's like I would say it's a generational voice Really?

Yes Thank you Didn't you say that? I wouldn't say that Really? I would not I don't even know How I sound

It's like one of those things Do you ever find that Like you don't even know How you Really? Yeah I don't know why Like when I hear my voice back You're just like an incredible singer

Thank you It's nice to here because I didn't know what to expect with you walking in here. We don't know each other. I'd say like 60% of this show is people I know. Really? Which is really nice. Oh, that's cool. Because we have like a relationship or like a friendship or like we've, we know each other somehow. But when, you know, four out of 10 people that come in, I don't know. I always get a little nervous because I'm like, what are they going to be like? You know, I don't want to come on too strong or embarrass myself.

But I get excited to talk to new people that I've never met. And when I hear your voice, and over the years, I've certainly heard your voice, I always kind of thought, oh, she must be a serious singer, like all the stuff, like routine, the vocal stuff, which is fine if you're a serious singer and you take it like a sport. But it makes me feel a little bit better about myself. sitting across from an incredible singer who has no routine other than probably the little

nuances idiosyncratic things you probably do that you may not even notice like how you prepare for a show. Yeah. You probably have your own routine that works for you, but like it's not some like vocal Olympics to get ready for a show.

Which always makes me feel like kind of like I'm not a serious singer when I see people doing that. I respect it. Yeah. But I go, I wish I could do that, but I can't. I know, but you can't.

Yeah, I do feel that way too. I feel like, I don't know, especially because we get to do this and it's something that's like so exciting and, you know, quite the singular experience. You know, you just feel like, should I be doing more? And it's not that I don't take it serious because I really do. It's just like, I don't know what it is. I just, maybe I just don't have the tools. I don't know.

It's just not in me too. Bortem? Maybe, yeah. Fucking boring? Maybe, yeah. Fuck, I can't concentrate on shit that bores the fuck out of me. Yeah, I think that's what it is. I just am not as disciplined with it as I would like to be.

I still work super hard, of course. And I'm not bragging about this in any way. I'm not trying to be like, I don't even do anything. No, no, you're being, I asked you. You know, but like I just genuinely don't. So it makes me feel better too because I always feel like should I be, same thing. Like should I be doing more? Well, I can hear the time you spent on the album.

Mm-hmm. Yes. I can feel three years in that album. I know what that three years felt. I can feel it. Like I can guess, you know what I mean? Like when I hear the record. as an artist that's had my own experiences and working with other artists, like, I can feel the

three years in the record in the best way. Like, I can feel it. So you're not, someone doesn't work hard. Doesn't mean you have to warm up your vocals. Like, it's just, for me, I feel like, if I'm not interested in something, you can't even keep me in the room. It's terrible. I know. It's painful. I know. Maybe I have ADHD, too. I think you probably do. Maybe I do. I've never, Tested for it. How's you do in school? I actually, I was like a solid like a B student. Not great but not terrible.

But I did zone out a lot. And I do kind of zone out a little bit. I was a D minus student. D minor. Yeah. That's classic though. I know so many people in my life who are ADHD and same thing. They were just like could not focus.

I finally got tested as an adult. Really? How long ago? Like last year. Wow. So recently. Took me so long. Do you wish you like,

found out sooner or has it helped you, like, now having like an answer for, you know, quote unquote an answer? The thing about this like whole spectrum of like the way your brain works and everybody's different. It does help to know, but you still don't believe it when they tell you. Yeah, because they're like the psychiatrist or the psychologist or whoever it was was like, yeah, yeah, it's just like the worst cases that I've seen in a long time, you know? Like just like through the roof like ADHD.

How do you? How do you live? Offered me medication and everything. I didn't take the medication. I tried it and it freaked me out because I'm a very anxious person with medicine. Me too. Like, am I allergic to it? Yeah.

Oh my God. We're like the same. I literally because I have anxiety. I have like panic disorder. I got a whole. Okay. Okay. Me too.

And my, you know, my doctor prescribed me like Lexapro. Okay. Like antidepressive SSRI. And I was sit. I left it sitting on my bed. side table for a year. And I would put it in my hand, be like, okay, I'm going to take it. I'm going to take it. And I couldn't do it.

Here we go. Because I was like, something's going to alter my brain. Like, I'm going to be messed up. But what if I have a reaction? Like, what if I'm not the same? You know, like, irreversible damage. I just, like, made it the worst thing in my mind. And I could not take it. I would hold it in the palm of my hand and I couldn't do it. I had a panic attack. I tried to take the medicine. I took it. It, like, actually worked really well. But I was so anxious all day that I thought my heart was going to stop for a lot. You convince yourself that you feel different, right? Yeah, ADHD medicine is just speed.

It's like, it's an amphetamine or whatever you call it. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. So I thought that meant my heart was going to get. But he put me on a low dose. Like he called him and I was like, is this safe? I feel like maybe my heart's well. And he's like, no, dude, I put you on like a fifth of what people take.

Like, I don't even know if it's maybe placebo. Yeah. Like, he's like, no, trust me. Like, but I don't do good. with pills, man. Yeah, I was the same. I will say, though, they did really change my life and helped. I'm off of them now. Took a break from them. Again, because I convince myself of things. You just convince yourself that you feel different, or I don't know. And then you're just like, what is this? Like, what is it this? Is it the therapy I've been doing? Is it just a placebo?

Like, you don't even know. But do go to therapy? I do go to therapy. I love therapy. Yeah, I do love therapy. I know that for a fact definitely helps. Like, it has helped me so much. I haven't had like a true, what I would call panic attacks. What likely has happened with me is they've just gotten so small that a panic attack today is a different thing than it was 10 years ago. So they used to be just like world ending. I got to a place where like it's really, it doesn't get in the way of my day. If I'm anxious, I go, I'm anxious today. I wonder why.

Yeah. Well, maybe I didn't get up sleep. This, this, that's that. And I got it to a place today where it's very. very manageable and has been for a long time, probably the last like five years. It's been like this. Like in the background, it's very low. It's not, it's present. Through therapy, I think. So you think therapy is like the main thing that's helped. Yeah. What type of therapy do you do if you don't shock therapy? Oh, no, I'm just kidding.

Oh, I thought that was like a real thing. I was like, what's that? Like, is that like a new LA thing? Because there's so many things now. There's like ketamine. I'm like, shock therapy? Sure. Will they give me ketamine? And they shock me. No, no, no. Just old-fashioned. Not trying to judge it. You never know what people are.

I don't judge either. I don't know how I feel about ketamine therapy, but a lot of people say it is good. I don't know anyone that hasn't become an addict to ketamine when they started somehow in like what they thought was therapeutic use of it. So it's a dicey, but I'm also not a medical doctor. So I'm not going to say that it isn't helping people. I'm sure some of it is. I'm not against it either. I don't care. But mine's just more like old fashion or like traditional maybe.

Yeah. Conventional. Yeah, same. Talk to a guy. Yeah, talk to a guy. Well, mine's talk to a girl. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's super helpful. I was like not against. I just was like I didn't want to like a give into it for a while because I was like I don't want to like have to need it. There was like something in me for years where I was like I feel like I got it. Like I don't think there's anything to uncover. I just feel like I'm an anxious person, whatever. And then you you you sit. sit down and you talk about something that you might not even think affects you. And then next thing, you know, you're like, crying. You're like, where did this come from? Like, there's so much subconscious thought in you and so much subconscious feeling buried somewhere. And I just feel like it's so helpful to just talk about it. And it's like figure it out. You know, you like analyze yourself and understand things about yourself. And you realize like a lot of our anxiety that is seemingly out of nowhere is actually coming from like a specific thought or feeling that was like

somewhere lodged, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Like, why wouldn't it be? Why wouldn't our childhood affect, like, why wouldn't the first 18 years of our life kind of set the patterns and belief systems and the tone of like how we behave as adults? Let's just change. But we can, we should go back. I think we should go back. Everyone should do an exercise where they go back and they like unpack their childhood so that they can, we should go back. I think we should go back. I think we should go back. can make sense of all of it, the good, the bad, and try to find any kind of old belief systems or like old programming that is interfering with like their current success. That's how I see it. I agree. I had to do it. You know, did you find that you felt like, so I didn't start therapy

until I was probably 29? 29. That's still pretty good. But I guess later, for some people. I wish I would have started it at 19. Yeah, I know, me too. I know, once you start, you're like, oh man, where was this like the whole time? When did I start? I started, I mean, I dabbled a little bit like in like 2018, 2019,

and then I really like locked in in 2020. Oh, that's good. Yeah, because I just like was having panic attacks like every hour. Pandemic, man. Yeah, I don't know what happened there. I think for all of us. I think a lot of us started therapy around that time. But it was seemingly unrelated to the.

pandemic, but maybe it wasn't, I don't know, maybe we just had more time to think. But yeah, I was having panic attacks like constantly, like every hour. Every day? Every day. Wow. Every single day. It was like, do you know what de-realization is or depersonalization where like you, it's like this type of panic attack that happens where like you, it's almost like you zoom out of

yourself and like nothing feels real? Like you feel so detached from your body. It's like a fight or flight thing that happens to your body. I still get it now, but like, like you said, I feel like I can be. aware that it's happening and just like view it and like put it away until it like goes away. I take it you love music. Your dream is to do what you're doing. You had no other dream.

You weren't playing a sport or like you love music. You're all in. Your dream was to do this. You were 100% invested in your success in this. And you would be very disappointed if you never got the chance to do it. Yeah. It's like a fair statement. Of course.

Okay, me too. Yes. So when I had success and I had spent so many years hoping for that success, working for that success, showing up every day, just everything I could possibly do. You tell me to go somewhere I'd go there. You tell me to meet someone, I would go there. You know, I would just do anything to make it in my mind, whatever making it means. And then I got the success. It almost like inflamed everything that I had to stuff while I focused on that.

success that I didn't deal with for so many years until I made it to where I was like, oh, okay, I have a career. Oh my God. Now there's new pressure. I need to make another record. Oh, my God. We had a hit. Oh, now I need to have another hit.

Or this, you know, you go through this roller coaster. None of it bad. It's amazing, exciting, but also just stressful. Yeah, for sure. Some days you're like, I'm on top of the world. Some days I'm like, I'm done. Yeah. No one fucking cares.

Oh, my God. You know? But I literally said that yesterday. You know, I was just done. No, I'm fucking cares. Like, like, like... Yeah. I quit like every week.

Yeah, yeah. You feel that way because you're still the artist who needs to make something and feel like there's hope, you know? Do you feel like the success that you experienced from your first maybe touch of success, whatever that song was to the next thing that you could mark as, you know, a big nomination? or winning an award. Do you feel like that stuff triggered all the stuff that you kind of had to put aside while you focused on getting after it and getting to where you are today? Like, do you feel like that emerged in 2020 at like a inflection point of like you'd had success and now you're left with yourself to make sense of the success, how you even feel about all this? Yeah. What you're going to do next and, like, where you came from.

For sure. Yeah, a thousand, a thousand percent. I think, like, being in the public eye in any degree, but especially, like, having, like, a lot of success at any point. I think it just amplifies all the insecurities and things that you felt before. It, like, holds a magnifying glass to everything because everybody's watching you, and it's, like, I don't know, it's such a fragile thing. So it really amplifies everything you feel before you got into it. times a thousand and then also like adds new insecurities you know because it's like it's it's not a

human thing like to do what we do and to have like the level of like eyes on you and to just be perceived by so many people it's like not in our DNA to like be equipped to handle that you know you get I'm trying to say like it's just not it's like our we're working on like an old software like a new computer screen with like a old software that like can't keep up right like we're just not equipped for it. So you can't possibly make sense of something that's just like not a human thing. It's only, you know, a certain amount of years old. It's just not in our DNA to like be seen by that many people to have like to, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. You're right. I never thought about that. Like the fame thing is really only in the last hundred years maybe. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like human history. Yeah. Like magazines, TV, movies. Yeah. Like you just have your tribe and it was all about like survival and you know. And they were like famous warriors or famous kings or famous like there wasn't a whole lot of things you could be famous for. Yeah. It was like, oh, he's a famous farmer. Yeah. Yeah.

It was just like he's a killer. Hunter. Yeah. He's a leader. That's about it. Yeah. That's what you're famous for. Exactly.

I think the only things were equipped to handle is like, you know, survival instinct and like companionship and like just like there's like the basic things. And then everything else is just like invented and made up and we don't have like the. Yeah, that's true. The thing in our DNA to like be to handle that yet, right? Which is why I think we like glitch out a little bit. Yeah, yeah, we freak out. We do.

So I, that's how I've sort of rationalized it. It just like really holds a magnifying glass like all these things you feel about yourself. And that survival instinct thing that you have just gets like converted. And then you get new insecurities. You get so many new insecurities. Because like some, you put out, yeah, you just put out your music video. I'm like, here's my music video. I hope you like it.

And then someone's like, what's wrong with his chin or what's wrong with this? And you're like, what? What? Even look at my chain ever in my life. Oh my God. Oh, what do I have? Oh, what's going on here? Or like my mouth, whatever.

Like people are just like, they say little things that you don't even think about. And then you read something comment on some random thing one day and it pops into your awareness. And then forever you're like, I have a weird this. And you're like, I never even thought about my face like that. I know. And now I suddenly do. And it's like, is this my thought? Is this my feeling or is this like carried from someone else?

Yeah. How do I even feel about myself? Yeah. Yeah. So then you just get so confused because you're like, I don't know how I actually feel about myself because you have all these opinions from everyone else. And you're just like, I don't even know what opinion is my own. What is this guys and this person's?

So yeah, it's a lot. It's so weird. That's so funny. And also like having to see yourself. I feel like a lot of people don't have to watch themselves back. No, I can't. We're just always on video. You know, especially nowadays.

Everybody's like filming everything. Yeah. So it's like weird to just. like see yourself. I just don't think it's like in our bodies to know how to even like understand how to think about that. Yeah. That's very, I think that's very true. I think that's actually helpful to hear because I don't know if I ever thought about how I looked it more than just like, yeah, cool. I guess I look okay. Yeah. I like what I'm wearing. Yeah. All right. And then like in my 20s with each song or video or whatever, you start focusing more and more on how you look and you become way

more self-conscious about what you're wearing and how you're standing and what do you do with your hands in a photo shoot like what do you even do what do you do I do I do I do this or I do this or I do this I have like four things I can do with these and then other than I'm like what I put them in my pocket I have four moves in a photo shoot I always tell a photographers now I'm like I got about four different things I can do four settings pick one it won't take long it helps to hold something Have you ever held an instrument? No, I was just like, but you know, it's very comfortable now because I'm a 46-year-old man, like father of teenagers. Like when I go to a, well, I don't do a lot of photos shoots, but I'll do a random photo shoot here or there and I go, look, this is going to be easy.

I got about four looks. I brought three outfits. I love that. Should only take about an hour. And they're like, cool. I love that. That's a good kind of freedom. Boom, boom, boom.

And you're done. Every picture looks the same. Yeah, but who cares? If you stick with the safe bet, you know it's going to work. You know, the safety net. Yeah. I'm trying to get to that a little sooner. I want to, like, hopefully be able to get to a place where I don't have to, like,

where I can, like, be like that. Some people really enjoy, like, my wife loves photo shoots. She looks at it as, like, dress up. Like, she's, like, always, it feels like she's, she always says that. She's like, it's like, it's like playing dress up. I love it. It's just putting on different outfits and she's very free. She doesn't look at the photo.

I wish. She doesn't watch or she does TV she doesn't watch it back. Really? She doesn't watch stuff she makes. That's so interesting. She just makes it.

She's awesome and so cool anyway so I feel like she doesn't have to worry about anything. That's probably like why she's cool. Yeah. Oh maybe yeah because she doesn't care. I mean it's not that I care because I don't look at stuff

really back like too much either. I just don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it at all. I don't like dress up. I've never care. I don't like even trying things on like at the store. I will not try things on.

It doesn't fit. You take the loss. It's hard to even choose what meal to eat every day. It's too much choice. Yeah. I can't do. But I want to sing songs to people. Mm-hmm.

And you want to make art and you want to make stuff so you have to do it. So you find a way to do it that you can stand. And I found, look, we're being very like, I would say we're sharing openly and like in a way that's like safe to say. it could sound like a complaint to someone listening. Of course. It's not a complaint. But it's awkward. The thing we do is kind of awkward.

Like you get on stage in front of people, you take pictures or you go on TV or you make a video. We want to do that because we want to put our art out there and those are the things you have to do. Yeah. It's like what comes with it. But making it is the best part. Oh, for sure. Yeah. For me, definitely.

Like the idea that you just like walk into a room with nothing and then you're just like walk into a room with nothing and then you. you leave with something. That's like my favorite thing. That is like the dopamine part for me over anything else. It's like cracking the code on like a song and just like having like having made something. I think that's like the closest thing we have not to sound like cheesy and woo-woo, but like to magic I think, you know. Yeah.

It didn't exist three hours ago. Yeah. And then it just felt like it's always existed. It's just like such a cool thing. So that's my favorite part. And like you said, there's like things you got to do around it. Yes. want that part of it.

I mean, just like every job, there's going to be parts you don't like. There's going to be days where you don't want to do it. But I think for us, we're more reluctant to say that because it is like a really cool thing. And there's this idea that you just have to like be constantly grateful, which we are. Well, yeah, yeah, which is also just kind of like a bar. If you let anyone else set that bar for you, you'll never meet their standard of what gratitude means because we are grateful. Of course, every day.

And it's not that even when I'm doing that photo shoot of making that video, which are my two least favorite things to do is make a video and do a photo shoot. Right? I'll actually go on live TV before I want to make a video or do a photo shoot. Yeah. Videos I kind of like, yeah, the photo shoots can't. Yeah. But I'll still do it happily. Exactly.

I'm a joy to be on set with. But the whole time I'm doing and I'm just kind of just doing what they need me to do so that I can get it done. because I don't like it. And I'm okay with it. I don't need anyone to like, so you should like it. Feel better. It's not that I feel bad.

I'm excited to it. Yeah, you're just kind of like, eh, it's just like the least, it's my least favorite part. Yeah, I totally agree. We're very similar. It's really weird. Yeah, weird.

Yeah. What's your sign? A cancer. Oh, what month is that? July, July 11th. Okay. July 11th. Yeah.

I'm March 11th. Oh, are you Pisces? Mm-hmm. Both my parents are Pisces. Oh, yeah? They do say that like Pisces and cancer. are like? I think I have like a cancer rising or something.

Oh, you're cancer rising. Maybe like someone told me that one time. There's some rising or something. Yeah. So you got like you're like a water. You got lots of water going on. Yeah. Big time.

Yeah. I'm the same way. That's interesting. Maybe that's why we just like flow. Just flow. Just flow. Yeah. You just like just run downhill wherever.

Yeah. Are you an emotional person? Yes. Yeah. Same. Sensitive, I'd say. Same. Reluctantly.

For a gridded teeth, I'll say I'm sensitive. Because I also don't like to admit it, but I feel like I am sensitive. Yeah, I also don't admit. It's hard for me to share. Yeah. But I feel a lot in here, but I likely might not share how I'm feeling, but I feel it. You know, I want to say that I get my feelings hurt easily because it's not that. But I care deeply about how other people feel.

And I want to please everybody. I want everyone to be happy. But yeah, I could be sensitive in some ways But yeah, I'd say I'm pretty emotional Yeah You're emotional? Yeah, it's also maybe just being artists too

For some, I don't know Maybe it's like, I always think like Are artists sensitive because they're artists Or are they artists because they're sensitive? You know what I mean? Yeah, cart before horse Did you become? Yeah, like chicken or egg.

Yeah, I always wonder that Maybe a bit of both, I don't know. I think that. you're born an artist. That's my thing. I think you're born an artist. I think you vibrate on a higher level than most people. So I think that artists are like healers maybe, like we feel people's pain. Yeah. And we want to make people feel things. So I think we write songs to heal ourselves, to like do something, to feel something. And then when we give it to someone, it's like a Christmas, it's like Christmas, it's like you want them to feel like happy or you want them to feel, I don't know,

I think there's like, it is something like healers, I think, or something. So I think there's sensitivity in that. There's, there's like intuition a lot. You probably have really strong intuition. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, yeah, it's like a sensitivity. Like we have like extra antennas or something. Yeah, well, so writing a song is an intuitive process. You hear a melody first before you say it. So you hear chords being played. you hear the drums, you hear everything starting to come together, and you, like, start to hear a melody. And that's an intuition. That's a, it's, so you think about this. Did the song exist somewhere before you wrote it? Oh, I love talking about this stuff. I think that that's the case. I think that

for me, I don't know. I believe that, like, ideas and songs are just like there. I feel like this sounds so like, hippie-dippy, you know, but I like hippie-d-y. Yeah, me too. We're in Los Angeles. We're in a safe space.

Yes, and we're in a safe space. This is a, this is a very, like, non-serious slash serious show. Like, everything here is just like

hanging out at a friend's house at a dinner talking. Yeah. So there's nothing at stake, right? Like, that's the thing for me with conversation these days has become so much at stake.

Yeah. Like, if I don't say the right thing, like, marked. You know, you get labeled something or you get, and the way we work things out is talking. It's the way we write songs. We write 50 verses before we land on. On the thing.

Sometimes, or sometimes just the first verse we wrote. The thing that you say, yeah. You know, so it's like there's no rules with writing a song. And it's very conversational when you write a song. Yeah, that's true. Just talking if you're writing with someone, you're just like, oh, that was cool. What did you say? What is that?

Blah, blah, blah. If we were at a friend's party or hanging out at dinner, we'd also. have the freedom to like kick shit around to land on something or not land on anything. Yeah. So that's what this conversation is more than anything else. Like I always like the freedom of like saying anything because there's no right or wrong answer. It's just opinion.

But yeah, I do think that like songs kind of exist and ideas are sort of there and then you just tune in and catch them or something because it's such an intuitive process. So I don't know. Sometimes I feel like, am I even really part of it at all? Not to, you know, be like, I'm just like a vessel. But like, I don't know. I do feel like we kind of are. Maybe. To some degree. I don't know. That's what my belief system is. But I also do think if there is like a cerebral side of it too where like like, like I said like cracking the code on a song, you can like kind of it is sort of fun to just like, you know, think about it a little bit in like in a cerebral sense. But I don't know. What do you think about it? I think that if anyone's going to tell me that there's not something, whether. whether you call it spiritual, whether you call it otherworldly, whether you call it, whatever you want to call it, magic, whatever you want to call it, energy. If we can agree that these concepts are real, if spirituality is real, if most people listening have some spiritual belief, most people listening are like, I'm this religion or I

believe in God or I believe in this. So they are saying, okay, I believe in spiritual, the spiritual nature of life that there's a transcendent part of life that's like we don't understand but we believe in and we look towards yeah okay if we're all agreeing that that's real if we agree energy's real like they can prove it's proven it's and then and then our science is based on these concepts we agree on that how would we not say that music that it isn't possible that music is some frequency or some energy or some form of energy or communication that could be from somewhere else. Yeah. And artists are whatever you want to say, a vessel, an antenna, a connector, a connector.

Intuition is a real thing. For sure. I totally believe that. Most artists I've met are very intuitive people. Yeah. They can see someone and feel something. They can see a look on their face. When you're on stage, you're reading the entire room and you're adjusting subtly your show constantly.

Yeah, true. All show long from start to finish. Good nights, bad nights. It doesn't matter. You're sick, you're healthy. There's a lot of factors that factor in. But the whole time you're on stage, the whole time you're in an interview, the whole time you're on a TV set, doing, like you're interacting with people, feeling and tuning into what. what they're feeling and adjusting to get them to feel like you hopefully want them to feel.

Most of us, it's joy. Yeah. It's like very, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very simple. Like, we either want them to feel joy. We want them to be angry to join in some powerful, angry, um, we want them to be happy and joyful or have them reflect. Play a big song, get your lighter out. Reflect.

Yeah. Reflect on life. Reflect on this, this sad idea that we're sharing or this. or come together, you know, like, so it's very, I'm not very articulate with it, but like, no, no, you are. I made total sense. But you tune in to that every night when you're on tour. Yeah, that's really true, actually.

When you're writing a song, you're tuning in to how you feel, how does the music make you feel? What does it make you think of? And then the melody comes from somewhere. So I think that there is some aspect of music that lives somewhere else outside of us. I think it's like, is it floating around in space? Is it in another dimension? I don't know.

You know, there might be like a good, someone that has some theories on that. But I just feel like when I write a melody or an idea, like kind of comes not from my brain. Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. It's just kind of like comes from somewhere. Yeah. It's so true.

I feel the exact same way. That's why I mean when I say like it feels like it existed before. It's so strange. Like once you put it down and it. becomes like the song. It just feels like a thing that's like totally separate from you. And it feels like it was always there. And a lot of people have that sensation. They're like, why have heard this before? Yeah. I feel like I've heard this before. Yeah. There is something about like that. It's something about like when you hear a song and you're like, God damn, that song's good.

It feels familiar. It feels like you've known it for years. Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah. I really do feel that way too. I don't know. Yeah, I believe in energy too. Like I feel like that stuff we'd be like kind of dumb to to not think that there's like something else because you I don't know it's like when you you know when you like have you ever been in a room with a bunch of people and then like maybe you leave and then you come back in the room and the energy's different maybe when you were gone someone said something that made it awkward and you come in and you're like why is it so different like what happened here yeah but like nobody said anything but you could just tell like I feel like that is so palpable and real like what is that you know

if not an exchange of energy you're like it's like an energy bomb went off. Yeah. Someone dropped a grenade in the room. Yeah. It's so strange, but there's nothing that would indicate it other than just the feeling of like, or the opposite. Like you're going and everyone's like amped up and you're like, whoa, what's going on?

Like, fill me in. Yeah, yeah. Like, well, we were just talking about this and you're like the energy can move. Like, it's real. Yeah, it is real. It's just, it's like that thing. Like, do you ever think about that in your own life? Like, am I as aware as I should be about how the energy is in my life?

Mm-hmm. probably more so now and like this year than ever. I feel like I wasn't really like nurturing that part of things because I didn't really have great energy in my life like from myself. Like I wasn't really like projecting that around me like to other people but not giving it like to myself. And I feel like in your own like private alone world. Yeah. Like I just like wasn't really that happy.

I wasn't I don't know. I just didn't feel great about life. And so my perspective was really off. And so I just felt like my, my energy within my own world wasn't the best. And I wasn't very conscious of like how to change it or really wanting to change it. You know, when you just kind of get so low that you don't even really care to make it better, you're just like, this is who I am, this is what it is. You weren't really conscious of like a choice.

Yeah, or something. Yeah. So, but I think now I've felt that more than ever, just like maintaining that, giving that to myself. Why do you think that, why do you got there? I don't know. I think it was like a few different. things I think just being younger and like being in a developmental stage in my life had something to do with it. I think just like having this level of success like super young and you know like we were talking about having those like anxieties from the past kind of come in and I don't know. I just like felt a little depressed and I don't really exactly know why. I think it was like a mix of things to the point that I just thought that was like my personality. I was like I think this is just like I think this is just like. like who I am, you know, and then you just become so comfortable with that that, like,

trying to look for anything outside of that is, like, scary or something. So, which is why I guess I was reluctant to therapy and all the other stuff, because I was like, I'm good, though. Like, it's fine, you know. I'll be all right. I'll be all right. Yeah. I'm used to it now. You know, you get really, like, scarily comfortable in that world. Yeah. Until you get a taste of the other side and you slowly work on it. And now I'm just like, I can't picture going back to that. Like, I love life now and you know i don't know i just feel like the energy that i project now is like just so much better and healthier and i'm super happy but it took a while yeah to get here i don't even know if that answered the question it does how old were you when you had your like first uh i would say like

global success moment where you were like oh shit i have a hit or of like arrival to success in a career which you have you're a career artist i think i was super young i was like 18 or 19. That's young. Which is pretty young. Like I mean, I'm thankful that I wasn't like a kid. Like, I feel like I had a lot of my teenage years in normalcy and like working on it. Yeah.

And like, you know, but it's still pretty young. Like 18 is still, you know, because your 20s are just like crazy and chaotic. I hadn't even entered my 20s yet. And I was like going through my late teens, early 20s in front of everybody else. And like I kind of had like my first. song was like pretty big like out of the gate my my biggest song like came like you know a little bit after that but like just having like all these new eyes on you like off the bat at 18 like it was like really scary and strange and then like there's like this weird thing that happens where you like

have set the bar now so young and now even at 28 you find that like whether it's people or yourself you're like comparing yourself to like this young version of yourself instead of of working towards something in the future, you're kind of like comparing yourself to like a past version of you in a weird way. And like you feel like you always like have to live up to that. So it was really strange like having success like that early on in my career. It's very, it's like a weird mind game that I really had to like get out of because it was like not healthy to think about. Who helped you get out of it? Um, honestly, I think me. Just you aged out of it almost like you grew up. out of it. Yeah, like, I think you just have to like understand that there are other things in life. And I know, like,

music and doing this for a living takes up so much of your brain space. And I feel like a lot of artists can relate. Like, you kind of make it your everything for so long. Right. Which is great and it's great to be dedicated, but it can be challenging when like, you know, it doesn't maybe go the way you plan because then you just like let that inform how you feel about yourself in every aspect of life. All the time. Yeah. The whole fucking life. Which is terrible. So I had to just like get a other things in my life. Like, it sounds stupid, but like, I had to just, like, make friendships and develop relationships and just like, get a dog, walk my dog, go live a normal life and, like, see that there was, like, there were other things out there that are now. There's more to life.

Yeah, and that are more important to me, you know, and I think doing that really just shifted my perspective on, like, this is just such a small, like, one percent, like, little aspect of life. And it's just like such a bubble that you feel like it's everything. And, you know, when everyone around you is in the industry as well. You just feel like it's so much bigger than it is. And then you get out of it and you're like, this is not really majority of people's reality. And I don't think it's reality at all.

It's great. But I don't think I need to let this like inform how I feel about myself. Yeah. You know, as a human being. So once that shift happened, I think I just like stopped comparing and learn to be grateful for the fact that that happened and I had that. And if I never have it again, it's fine.

Like I'm happy. I feel healthy. and I get to make music I love. And that's like freedom and that success in itself, to be honest. That's amazing. That makes me so happy to hear. I feel like I hear that all over your record. I just hear like a real person, someone who's making music and it feels so, yeah, I don't

know. It's really refreshing to hear the record was like really made me feel so happy because I feel on the same ride. I think it was my late 20s, 28, 29, when I like went, oh, whoa, this is not everything. Yeah. My value of myself has nothing to do with my catalog of music. Yeah. I can be an asshole with that catalog of music and it or I could just be me and fucking who cares how my last song did. I don't know. You know what I mean? But like you get in this like, you work so hard to make it and then you get in this like pattern of like, just going to go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Say yes to everything. Go. Don't let up. Don't let up. And you forget, like, what life is about, which is kind of like friendships and happiness and

happy memories and like finding out what it means to be you. What does that even mean? You know, but like when you're a teenager, we started and we were like 15. Wow, 15. And then it was on. Nothing else mattered. We just went, went, went, went, went, started touring, probably 18, really when we started really touring. And then 20, we got our first big break, I'd say, like big record. We did everything else before that kind of independently. And then we did that. And then it was on. We didn't want to let up because we were so afraid of not making it. And it was my whole self-esteem was wrapped up in that. Having success with that. If I could just do that, I'll be good enough and I'll be like worth something. And on the other side of

that, I wouldn't change a thing. I learned so much through that process. But I learned like that, it's sad that that whatever point of your life for me realizing that like whatever love I didn't get whatever whatever I didn't get for my parents I was trying to fill that with like if I can just make it and then when I got what I thought I wanted I realized I still felt the same yeah exactly isn't that strange I had some stuff to figure out yeah it's then like okay then by the time of 28 29 I'm like I've done nothing you know you know you feel so behind just like I feel the exact same the way that I felt, this didn't fit. Like, what do you mean this didn't fix everything?

Yeah, exactly. So then you started talking to someone and like, you find a good person and you figure out, like, oh, there's a whole lot of development we have to do as people that is literally just like, can I sit in my life every day and be happy? Yeah, that's ultimately it, right? Like, I feel like that's what we all ultimately are looking for in any capacity, no matter what you do, how old you are. Like, I think that's really all we want as people ultimately.

It's just like how we get there. And I guess maybe we just felt like doing this and saying yes to everything and, you know, getting to the highest possible place was going to give you that. I don't know. And it's not that we shouldn't be doing that. We should be doing that so much as we feel like we have a purpose. We feel like we want to do that. We want to work.

We want to make stuff. Exactly. But if it's a chase versus. a climb. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. If I'm chasing, just like, oh my God, I got to keep up because if I don't, I'm going to fall off and I'm just going to be, now, like, I kind of like feeling a little washed up.

It makes me feel like I have some like. You got some wisdom. Yeah, I got some wisdom. I'm like a little washed up. So like I kind of, I realize too, it's all kind of bullshit. Like, no, like you can, the thing is is now you make records at a very high level. You have now gained that power to do that. You'll never not make another record that is in a high-level piece of work

because you've gained all that through your experience. So, like, when I hear your record now, I'm like, this is very, this is very musically a high-level record. The playing on this record's amazing. Only an ear that's discerning would say, I want it to sound like this, right? But you gain that through all this experience. and you don't know if this record is really about something down there. That's the other exciting part of what I've learned about, like, the artist's journey

is like this organic. And for anyone listening that's doing anything in life, like, if we judge this moment as good or bad, either way, we're making a mistake. We have to say, I'll judge it later. I don't know what it actually means. I'm just doing what I feel. That's the intuition. I'm making this record.

I felt I needed to make it. I hear the story. I'm like, oh, three years. That sounds about right? It sounds like someone's figuring something out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's wrapped up in a musical process, but it's really something else.

It's some deeper shit. Yeah. I'm figuring out who I am, but I'm also making a record. So I can hear that on the record. It's wild because I hear you talk about it, and I go, oh, I can hear those three years. I can hear the process.

And then, but we don't know if this record, love and hyperbole, is actually about love and hyperbole, or if it's about something down the road that you don't know about yet, that you needed to do this to get to. To get there. That's the artist journey. That's interesting.

You know what I mean? I never really thought about that. But if we quit or we let anyone talk us off our path for some fucking dumb reason. Well, they said, you know, this didn't do as well, that one because that one was blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, yeah, I don't know. What is this person from? What accent?

This is like a, I'm thinking something like an A&R slash like music business person that knows a lot. about the stuff. The whole, yeah, they know everything. The streaming numbers of blah, blah, blah. And you're like, yeah, well, I respect the scorecards that we use. Yes, of course. Just to see, like, where it's at. Uh-huh.

But what if I'm making this for something else? And like, what if I need to go down this way to find out? Mm-hmm. For yourself. Yeah. And for your destiny. Yeah, exactly. And if I don't do it, what I feel, which is what I always try to tell artists I,

Like just first of all, you have to like it and you have to think it's cool, period. That's it. And then like, what if there's a feeling you go, I don't know. I just need to go down here and see what's up. I feel like I need to go there. And someone's like, what over here? Like, I just think you have to follow your intuition to get to where you're supposed to be. And this record, by the way, I think this is a commercial record.

I'm not saying this about your record, but I feel like the record itself, it feels like an artist. choice that was like really thought out and and toiled over. Definitely. Not done yet. Not right. Not done yet. Yes. Dig more. We need to dig more. And then I listened to the record. I listened to the whole thing. And I was like, oh, this is a complete record, which is also rare these days. Yeah, I'm such a, I'm such an album fan. Like I'm, you know, and I've always wanted to be an album artist, like start to finish, make it make sense as a, as a story. I love to give people that because I love as a music fan to like get that. And I'm glad you can hear that because I really like for the first time I feel like really

did not put it out until I felt like it was right. It's worth it. Yeah. How do you feel about like the reception? It feels great. I honestly, I didn't know what to expect because it had been so long. So I mean when you're throwing something out there after a while, you don't know who's still there, who's going to listen.

But the reception has been really great. And I'm so glad that people have embraced this like, I guess somewhat new direction. I don't know if it's like. like a complete 180, but it is a little bit more honed in, I think. So yeah, I'm just glad that, like, people have, have received the new sonic scope of it well. And it's been really nice. It's been really nice to see. And I have to remind myself, like, because I think nowadays, it's like, I think, like, record just, like, have this, like, imaginary shelf life where it's like, all right, two months in, okay, we're moving, we're moving on. But, like, music lives forever.

So I'm, like, also not putting pressure on, like, how long things take or don't take. Like, I don't know. I'm just excited about it. And from what I've seen, everybody, you know, not everybody, but the fans that I have had for the last 10 years have been really into it, which means the world. I'm really happy and just excited. I'm excited to like make more now, you know. Yeah. It's great. I think you got to let this one breathe. Yeah. Yeah. Really. And my music is like that. Yeah. And like builds. Like it's always like it takes a long time. But I love that process. I like taking time, you know, and just letting things be. Like, I was going to put this album out in October of last year.

And I was like, it felt a little rushed. So I pushed it. And I'm all for doing that. Like, I don't know. I feel like it's better to just let things breathe and have their time. Because you've spent so much time making it. So it feels so counterintuitive to then put it out and then just like let it go and move on to the next thing. Like it just feels like it's not worth it.

Like you want to live with it the same way that you, you know, lived with it while you were making it. It's just such a shame to just let things feel so disposable nowadays, you know? Yeah, I feel the same way. Congrats. Thank you. It's so nice to meet you. Great to meet you too. Oh my gosh, this is so cool.

Thanks for having me. I was so excited. I was like a little nervous to. I loved it. I really appreciate this. Thank you so much. It was so good. Thank you.

Congrats on the record, really. Thank you. Thanks for listening to it. Thank you for listening to Artis Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at artist dot friendly and you can watch us on youtube and veeps leave comments i always read them see you next time