Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Andrew McMahon

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Andrew McMahon. Back in the early 2000s, McMahon catapulted to pop-punk fame as the vocalist and pianist in Something Corporate. While the band took a break, he started writing solo songs that formed the nucleus of Jack’s Mannequin, whose first album, 2005’s Everything in Transit, covered the collapse of a long-term relationship while unknowingly foreshadowing his cancer diagnosis. These days, he’s fronting Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness, though he’s gone on a reunion tour and released new music with Something Corporate in the past couple of years. Sitting across from Joel, he enters a reflective space, opening up about finding his place in music, channeling grief into songwriting, and how decades of reinvention have shaped his career. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Janice Leary, Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin Director/Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman ------- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My entry point to making music was like a little kid, you know, and like it was, it was like a grief outlet initially, you know, it was like. What was that? I had my uncle who was like kind of really central, a central figure in our family's life, passed away at a 39, you know, and I was kid. I was, I was, I think I was eight, maybe turning nine at the time. And the piano became the place that I put that. I don't want to have bad. How connected do you feel to where you came from? Like, musically speaking.

That's a tough one to answer. I mean... Honestly. Well, I mean, honestly, like, I feel connected in the sense that so much of coming up in that scene taught me how to do what I do, right? I don't think if I didn't have to come up against being like the kid with the piano playing at the Warp Tour to like middle fingers in the air and all of that I don't think it would be as tough as I am now, you know? But even then it was like I was so confused when Drive-Thru wanted to sign something corporate because I didn't even know who Drive-Thru Records was. You know, I didn't even, I didn't listen to punk music.

Other than like growing up in Orange County and like blink and, you know, like we obviously, that was like in the water there. And so you, I heard those songs and liked those songs, but it wasn't, those weren't the bands that I followed. And so when all of a sudden we were on bills with like Finch and Newfound and and you guys, I was like, how does anybody even like our band? You know, like it didn't make sense to me at the time. Yeah. Now it makes perfect sense, you know, like, but I think, like, I don't think that like, like, I think now when you read, when you look at the scene now, it's like, oh, something corporate was a part of that scene. But at the time, it was like, it was, we were like, you know, had outliers.

Yeah, it was, you know, but in a weird way, I think that was like kind of punk. rock in a way. It was one of the appeals for sure. You guys were like, I think we came up in a time that things were like really marketed as in categories because that's how it was back then. Like now it's different. Like kids stream. So it's a it's a playlist. Yep. And it's got everything on it. It's a YouTube playlist. It's got everything on it. It's a it's kind of like if you go into my pantry, you're going to see like a bunch of different categories. of food. And like, these are snacks. Yep. These are ingredients to cook meals. These are, and you, if you organize that way and you go kind of like, oh, music is similar, it's like, it gives

us different nutrients for different things and it feeds different things at different times. Some stuff is a snack. Some stuff is a fucking meal. You listen to a record. It's like more. So if we zoom out and we realize like the marketing aspect of our career, And how at the time we were marketed. Yeah. And we were eager to, we were eager to play. So if someone said, hey, there's this warp tour. You're like, I know warp tour.

I'm from fucking Orange County. Of course I know work tour. I think we can get you on there. You're like, great. Yeah. I mean, that was the thing. It was never even in our, like, we'd never even imagine that for ourselves. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, I was like listening to like, semi-sonic and the counting crows and unfolds, you know? And I had gone to see Newfound. I'd taken like a girlfriend to see Newfound Glory. And I was like, and I was really into it. I saw him open for face to face. I think I maybe I was a senior.

It was maybe a year after I graduated. And I was like, oh, this is sick. I've never been to a show like this, you know. And then when I saw that Newfound was on the roster for drive-thru and they were reaching out really eager to sign us, I was like, I went to that show. Those kids would kick the shit out of my band. You know, like that was how I, you know, I was like, nobody's going to mosh into something corporate concert.

But I think to your point, at that stage of the game, it was like there was sort of a cult around the labels and the bands that were a part of this thing. And it mattered more, I think, to fans that you were a part of the cult than it necessarily, not to say that the music didn't matter. The music mattered. But I think we were able to sort of skate being sort of a softer band that played ballads and played the piano because people were like, well, if drive-through things that are cool. And Newfound is going to take them on tour. And they must be okay. You know, despite there were definitely people in that, in those camps that were like, what is this shit?

You know, like, we got a lot of that. And I, you know, it did. It toughened me up. And it toughened all of us up and definitely made us want to be better at playing. And certainly it influenced our music. And once we were in the sort of the swirl of it, and these were the bands that we were touring with them, like, loved being on the road with those bands. And made some lifelong friendships and things that,

that that part of it, I think, is still so deeply sort of in my bones. Yeah. It's funny. Everyone has that experience, though. Yeah. Like, what is this shit? We did, too. True.

Like, we did too. So did Defongler. Yeah. So did fucking. Yeah. You go to some place and you are an outlier somewhere. Mm-hmm. Doesn't matter.

Well, I think that was the, I mean, I also think that was sort of a unifying thread with those acts. And as we got into, like, having. deeper personal relationships with the guys in those bands was that there was a thread of like, well, all of us didn't totally fit somewhere, you know? And so I think, and now I see that so clearly, like, oh, that's, that's what bonded us to this music and these bands. But I think it's also what bonded the fans and the sort of culture that came up around it was this sense that it was like, well, we're not, like, it was kids that weren't like, like, they didn't buy into like fully into pop music, but they liked pop music, but they wanted a different, they wanted a different texture and a

different, you know, and they wanted to feel like it was for them and it wasn't for everybody, you know, even though sort of we were all a part of an era where it started becoming for everybody. But I do think that there was this universal threat of like, yeah, we don't fully fit in and we found some place to fit in. And that was really beautiful. It's funny. I always think about like, it was all pop music. Oh, yeah. In my opinion. And there were love songs. And it's like, whatever. whatever it is. I never, I was never conflicted. No. About what I did. 100% in the sense of like, I want to make music that's like at the scale of like a global successful artist, which is popular music, which is pop music, which is pop songs, which is when you think of whether it's like

you love the Beatles or you love Tom Petty or you love the Backstreet Boys or whatever. It's music that serves millions. Yeah. Well, that was the funny thing for me going into it because that's all I ever wanted to do. Like, I thought of us as like a pop, rock and roll band, you know, and so, and it was funny to all of a sudden be in a culture where there was like people talking about selling out and and like, and like, you know, like, and that was like, you know, like, and that was like, you know, like, and that was like, you know, like, you know, saying things like that, whether it was to us or to other bands. And I was just like, what do you mean? Like reaching more people? You know, it's like it's...

Also, you've known about my band for three seconds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've suddenly become an expert on us. Totally. And me as a person and my ethos and my morals and my values that you are saying I've changed. Nothing has changed. Yeah.

By the way, like, there's no... There's nothing concrete about art. It's all this objective, subjective, perspective driven unique thing that like if I stand on this side of the room and look at that painting or I stand on that side of the room and look at that painting or I get close up on it, it changes every time. And so with art, it's interesting when you get into the commerce side of art, which is a very interesting thing when you have people who are emotionally attached to something.

So that's why I understand it. I'm not angry about it. Like when someone's like, this or that to me, I'm like, that's an interesting perspective. Even if it's about me. Yeah.

Right. I mean, I always, like, I always laughed about it. And there were things that made, I think, I think,

and I don't know if you were the same, but I think there were things that I was, like, sensitive to only by virtue of being sort of a part of this scene that we got adopted into that, like, what are they going to, you know,

what are they going to think? You know what I mean? Like, I remember, When Hollister clothing launched, they came to us because it was like, you know, it was a, it was like a limited company brand, right? Yeah. Like born in in Ohio where I grew up, but they wanted like, it was going to be a Southern California brand. Total Southern California. Yeah. And they were, they were starting to launch stores and they wanted something corporate because we were

like the SoCal band, right? And I remember us like talking about it. And it was just like, and it was like a lot of that. It was like, well, should we do this? But it was like they were going to put something corporate t-shirts in Hollister. They were going to put our posters up. There was going to, you know, so there was going to be thousands of stores across the country opening. Huge marketing. Yeah, yeah. And I remember us just being like, you know, you know, and we were earnest in our early 20s and, like worried about what that was going to look like. And eventually we're just like, well, fuck it. Like, isn't our goal to get to as many people as we can? It's not changing our music, you know, like, we made the record already. Like, like put her picture on the t-shirt and let's freaking go you know i think that was just a function

of experience and um now you're this extremely accomplished experienced grown person i try to right like think about it like like like you've lived a whole you've lived many lifetimes in the music business yeah i'd say like a few years as a lifetime the way i see it yeah and you've lived many many many lifetimes in the music business you're less sensitive, less emotional about probably a bunch of things you would have been back then. 100%. And you're more sensitive and emotional about some things you probably didn't value as much back then. True. You know what I mean? Like I didn't value myself, I think, as much as I valued people's perception, the perceived scene I thought I was a part of, the perceived brands I thought

mattered in that scene, the perceived people I thought mattered in that scene. The perceived people I thought mattered in that scene. The only thing, the only reason I would value their opinion over mine is if I put them above me. Right. Right. So I came into it like, well, I guess these are the people that decide. Yeah. And I want, I mean, I just, God, I need to be whatever accepted or I need to be whatever. At the time, because I had no experience, I just came into the world from a small town in the middle of nowhere in Maryland and I thought I knew nothing. Yeah. Instead of giving myself credit, as an artist and going like, who knows what I know. But this is how I feel.

Yep. Right? Like, that's how I am more today. Yeah. Where I'm like, I don't know what I know. I know what I've experienced. I could draw on that. I'm not the all-knowing, wise, fucking older guy in a scene at all.

Yeah. I'm just, I know what I've experienced. Yeah. I know some concrete truths that have appeared over time. You know what you like. And I know what I like. And I know how I feel. Yep.

And so I can come from that now as a grown, person in this business and go, this is how I feel, if that changes, I'll let you know. You know what I mean? Totally. I mean, it was interesting for me because like, because I never felt like we fully fit in in that, in the scene that we sort of were a part of coming up. It was like, I was always trying to break out of it. You know, like any, like, not in a, not out of a lack of respect for it because it gave

me everything. You were just trying to find your B people. Yeah, but I was like, I was like, I feel like there was, because as you probably well know, it was like, and you guys managed to make pop music that exploded beyond sort of where we all came from. I think there was this weird thing, like, you know, when something corporate would go to, like, radio, where it was like, well, we weren't a punk band.

We didn't make punk songs. But there was like, there were like four or five slots for punk music on the radio, right? At that point. Right. And I was like, but we don't make that, you know. We're like making like sort of like pop rock and roll music. We were probably, if we weren't in the scene, would have been marketed in a completely different way.

But in a sense, I don't know that it's true. I think it was much more helpful than it was limiting. But as far as breaking through to the other side where more people heard what I was doing, it was limiting in that sense, like in reaching the larger sort of popular culture. And I was always just like, why am I having this conversation with my label about, oh, well, they're already playing these punk records? I'm like, did you guys listen to a record? Like, there's nothing punk about what?

what we're doing. Like, those are our friends and those are the bands we tour with, but like, that's not what we do. And truthfully, I think the reason I've constantly rebranded and shifted sounds and names and all those things has been like almost out of an effort to just like, what, where else can I go? You know, like, is there, is there another horizon or is there another audience? Like, like, let's build this culture of fans who like what I do. But let's go, you know, let's go on, you know, exploring and see where, what else there's. is. And I think that's largely why Jack's Mannequin came about was like, we were burnt. And I was like, well, what if I make just like a totally different sounding record with my same voice, you know,

and where does that go? And I, it did, I mean, it did help me reach sort of new audiences. And I think every time I've rebranded and started a new project, it's been a part of that exploration, you know, but it's been an interesting road, you know, because I'm always like, I was like, well, like, don't fit here. I don't fit there. You know, and for years, nobody knew where it put me, you know, which was It has been kind of my brand, weirdly, at the end of the day. Yeah, but you love making records. I love making songs. You love writing songs.

It's just songs for me. And you like to perform. Love it. Right. So what I hear the value is I want to make music. Yeah. And I want to find places where I can make music. And I'm not limited to the structure of an idea that other people have.

I actually, the only idea I have is I want to make records and make music and perform it. And that's what I love to do. And the survival in you, right? The animal that just goes forward and finds the food and water and sun is like, where can I go to do this thing that I need to do? Which is make music, write songs, perform. Yeah. And that to me is like the amazing thing about drive. Yeah.

Well, it's like, you know, my entry point to making music was like a little kid, you know, and like it was, it was like a grief outlet initially, you know, it was like. What was that? I had my uncle who was like kind of really central, a central figure in our family's life passed away at a 39, you know, and I was kid. I wasn't, I think I was eight, maybe turning nine at the time. And the piano became the place that I put that. And so I've had a lot of time to think about this. Obviously, it's like, you know, in my 40s now. And it's like a two-part thing for me, right?

So it's like the drive is one. And I think it's all born of that initial introduction to music, which was it helps me connect to myself, right? It helps me sort of like dig, find, you know, find the subconscious things that I'm not dealing with in my lived life and answer questions that are underneath the surface that I'm not really willing to face. Yeah. You discover things. Yeah. So it's like, so it's that first. Mm.

But then it quickly became a way for a very awkward kid to belong somewhere. You know, it became a way for the youngest of five and a family of amazing athletes and, you know, and a lot of noise and a lot of chatter. And, you know, like everyone's accomplishing things. Yeah. And I'm just this weird kid that's not into any of that shit. Yeah. You know? And all of a sudden, oh, wait, I'm a songwriter.

Yeah. You know, like, and these things that I do at home. that make me feel like whole, you know, like this puzzle piece that helps me understand myself. Now is also the thing that gets me external validation. It helps me make friends. Win trophies. You know, yeah, it helps me, you know, establish my, my sort of place in the world. What sports were celebrated in your house?

Soccer. Big soccer house. Your siblings were just like. My three oldest siblings were just gangster soccer players. Right. Just dedicated. The house ran around soccer. But everything. I mean, they could do anything.

It was like, they skiing when, when snowboards, like, I mean, this is how old I am, like snowboards had just been made, you know, like the first Burton board comes out. And now they're snowboarders. And they, you know, they were, I mean, they're amazing. And I'm like so close to my same. Like my sister was like a, you know, she played basketball and field hockey. And, you know, and was really smart. And I was just kind of this like, like, like fat little kid who just like, totally.

Wow. And like, like, and I, but I could play the piano. could sing these songs and like you know so i would play and and my my sister's friends would come over and they'd be like what's going on over there you're like the chubby awkward piano playing a little brother yeah and like so i did theater and i you know and like it's like a movie yeah and so for you know and that's still with me you know it's like it's still like i think i'm much more confident in who i am outside of music now than i've ever been and i'm much more settled in myself and i don't i don't need it for my identity yeah but good when i get into

to like writing mode and when I'm like when I'm really in it, the drive is like find the song that makes you feel like you're telling some truth and find the audience, the biggest audience possible for that song. You know, like that is still so baked in like and I, and I, you know, like if I put out a song that I think is amazing and I'm, and it's so satisfying when I'm writing it and recording it and it falls on deaf ears. I'm like, it's fucking dead to me. Really? Yeah, yeah. You know, it really like. I feel that. I understand that. You know, and in this modern landscape, it's like it really is taking a lot of effort. I'm finally there, like, where I'm like, okay, worry about this second.

You know, like the fitting in, the finding the audience, worry about a second. Make the process soulful. Make it about connection with your collaborators. Right. Make it about connection with whether it's another writer or the producer or the or the musicians that are playing on it. Have that be the first point. But could we, forgive me. I'm just stopping because I want to pull some things out because our careers are examples

of the human process and growth. And so it's a very, it's a bunch of things. But that being said, so I want to highlight experience with if something doesn't hit. This is what I hear. This is why I think you should, this is why I think owning it is good. I think you do own it, but I think owning it is good. Some artists are afraid to own that because it makes them feel like they're less of an artist, but that's not true.

So what I hear is someone who wants to have impact. I want to feel like what I'm doing has impact. And when I don't feel like what I'm doing has impact, I need to examine it because it doesn't, I don't want to waste time doing things that doesn't feel impactful. It's not about money. It's not about size. It's about impact. and what is perceived as valuable to a culture of people.

Right? So if I'm not making something that is not having an impact in the world I live in, then what am I doing? So I say that out loud because it's okay to be a serious guy. Like I look at myself and I go, I'm super serious about some things. And then there's other things I can identify that I don't care as much about. Yeah, yeah.

And then it helps me organize and own like the parts that I'm serious about. Yep. And it's funny too because like I think, and you tell me if you're, you're different. But I think when I started in music, I don't think I really understood I was in a process, right? Like it was just, it was like this, this self-discovery, right? And like writing songs and working with the band and the garage and going to shows. And all of that was like, I was just what I did.

Yeah. Right. I think in my life now, I mean, it's taken me years of here. I was like, no, this was like, it was about time. It was like an effort and grinding. And you did all, like I did all those things because I loved it. And I did them more than most people. And that's how I got successful. Right. It was like, I just, I put the time in because I was so in love with it. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is like, if you have a goal, but you're not in love with the process of achieving that goal, you're probably not going to get there. And if you do, you're probably not going to be at the top of your field or whatever it is or whatever it is you're seeking. You're better off to seek something that's

attached to some drive that makes you want to get up and do it all the fucking time. Yeah, that old. If you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. It's not true, but it is true. You won't suffer as much from the work. Yeah, you're going to work harder probably than anybody. That's so true because the organic nature of process in, any process, including what we do. Yeah. I always tell artists when I talk to them at this company at MDDN, we get a lot of conversations with developing artists.

Like it's part of what we love to do. We love finding new shit. It's exciting. Good for it. Good. And it's an interesting thing to, in general, people don't believe something until it's materialized fully. Yeah.

Fully developed, fully baked, fully cooked, fully in the world and on its third hit, right? Yep. So on your first hit, they go, well, they write you off. Second one, they write you off. You know what I mean? So artist development's a funny thing because you have to believe in things that don't exist yet, like a career. Yeah. And then you also have to acknowledge that like just because someone isn't signed or they haven't had their first hit or whatever,

it doesn't mean they don't have a career. They're at the beginning. You have to look at it like more organic. So I always say we do what we can with what we have and then we get more and then we do what we can with what we have. and then we get more and then we do what we can with what we have. And what happens when you expand is just like in the gym, you go in the gym and you can lift 100 pounds. And if you show up every week, in a few weeks you'll be able to lift 110.

And in a few weeks, you'll be able to lift 120 and so on and so forth. This is an analogy that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just throwing it out there. Metaphorically speaking, you know the muscles that we have. And the process of gaining that is just, put it is reps. And then inside those reps, it's the quality of the rep. And then there's levels to it, right? So when we're in a process, anyone can take this and apply it to themselves. Anyone listening right now, whether they're in a job, a relationship, a health journey, whatever journey they're

on, this applies to all journeys. We do what we can with what we have, where we are. You can say I want to be there. And you can even go into a room and say you're there. And you can even go into a room and say you're there. and you may get away with it for a long time actually, the fake it till you make it. I don't believe in that. I believe that you have to believe in yourself and you have to do everything you possibly can with what you have. I agree with you.

And I think the trick of technology and like in the modern time that we live is for learning to forget the overlay of the technology for a second. Right. Right. I think there are shortcuts. There have always been shortcuts built in everywhere, right? And whether it's, you know, now, you know, can you get a, can you can you get a viral thing to happen on TikTok? Whatever, whatever these things are, right? But I think that there is, we lose sight of it when we get to in the weeds of like, well, what is happening right now in this moment that we can game to get where we need to get, right? Like, I think all of that stuff existed, but the work still has to be there. It's what you're talking about, right? Like, you still. have to wake up and want to write every day if you want to have a career as a songwriter. You know what I mean? You still have to, you still have to go play hundreds of shows if you want to have a career as a performer and you want people to buy tickets. And I think there is that,

you know, it's like, I think we lose sight of that sometimes. And I, you know, I think it's swinging back in a way. But like all of like, like, for when the obsession became with every label was like, let's let's look at the date on the, on who's, who's having this. Or, that happening right now in this moment on TikTok and you realize, well, like, you might have a genius who's doing the work who has that moment. And you might have a kid that just accidentally stumbled onto something. Who do you sign? Right? And it's like, I think the most important thing is what we're talking about, which is like the passion, the work, the hunger. Like, I'm always keeping eye on hunger. That's like that, that to me is, is a thing. Do you want it? Yeah. You know what it takes?

If I don't, if I, like, if I don't have that hunger, I don't, it's like, I don't, I don't go. It's like, but when, when that starts, when I feel that inside of me bubbling up and it's like, oh, I'm hungry again. I want it. That's when I come up with a thing that actually matters that people are paying attention to. And that gives me that satisfaction of like connecting to myself, connecting to the world, you know, to the community or to a larger group of people, you know, in the culture. that has to sort of proceed everything, you know, in every era of this business, and we've survived how many weird iterations? I mean, it's like we came up.

So many. You know, we came up and it was like, everybody was like, oh, Napster, oh shit. You know, and you're like, oh, well, that actually helped us. You know, like it worked for us, right? It didn't work for the labels that were signing us. No. There's been so many of these watershed moments where it seems like the culture is going to upend everything now.

It's AI, right? And that's scary, right? but is it going to supplant the guy or the woman waking up every day and going, I love music so much, I'm just going to fucking write my heart out. That's going to win. You know what's wild I thought about the other day? Well, you just said Napster. And before that, it was burning CDs.

Remember? Remember, like, our era in 2000 was burning. Everyone would burn CDs and they'd write, you know, the name and whatever. And like, I'm just saying this. Like, I don't care how people consume music. No, as long as you can get it to them, that's all it matters. Also, it was dubbing tapes. Remember in the 90s?

You dubbed tapes. We would call radio stations with our cassette locked and loaded so that we could record the song. That you wanted to hear. And then we would, like, that would be like, oh, like, I'm not going to wait around for the radio to play it. And we would just dub a tape off the radio. There's never going to be, in my opinion,

the way I look at it is this. I've made peace with it. And maybe, and by the way, like, I say this as just my, how I feel. I'm not saying this should be applied anywhere because I understand where labels are coming from. I understand where artists are coming from. I understand where artists managers are coming from. Publishers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Everybody who's slicing up the turkey, I understand where they're all coming from.

I have always looked at a Bosquiat painting that he sold to somebody for five grand. that's now worth $20, $30 million that's changed hands a bunch of times and a bunch of people have made money off of it. Not Basquiat. That painting that he made will never, he will never have benefited

and now his estate will work his name. They'll tell his name. They'll monetize his name because of those paintings and it all works together and it's the way that art, it's the way of the good, the bad and everything in between for art.

Every devil is going to ride the shoulder of the artist. Right. It is just the way it is. And every artist is going to suffer and the ones who make it are still going to suffer. And they're going to be, they're also going to have in some way, shape, or form the benefit of the culture. Yeah.

Recognizing their art as important and blah, blah, blah. So it's always going to be something that you can never quite make sense of every which way and say, well, there's only one way we should do it. This is how it would be fair. But listen, I think, dude, you. You've had decades of a career that are hard-earned. Yeah. And we both come from a scene that kind of like got dismissed in a weird way as like

a kiddie music or something. And it actually was artists making real records, impactful records. And like I said, in a time where you couldn't track CD sales, you couldn't track downloads, you couldn't. Yeah. So that didn't go on our scorecard. No. You've sold millions of records.

I sold millions of records. whatever. It's still like, a fraction of it got tracked. Yeah. It was the beginning of the Wild Wild West of people being able to take whatever they wanted. And I never had a problem with it. But like we actually are feeling, I think in this time, the actual influence of our music. Oh my God. Yeah. Then more than we did at the time. Well, I think I think the combination of age and being aware, but actually seeing, I mean, seeing, like, it was funny. I, Chris and I, Karaba, we did a, like, reunion before we were young and all this stuff was happening.

And I was like, but I love that guy. We just said we were his homies. And it was like, let's go on tour together. And I remember sort of in that moment being like feeling like we were at the beginning of a wave that was starting to sort of crest. And then all of a sudden it was like, we were young festival and all these things. And it was just like, whoa, the appetite. And it was, it was, and it made me appreciate it so much more, I think.

Like, I don't know how you feel, but seeing it come back around all of a sudden. And I was like, I feel way more proud of it than I ever did at any point in my career. Absolutely. I appreciate it more. Yeah. And I think I finally go to all of us, to you, to me. Yeah. You know what?

You guys were like good. You guys were like hardworking kids who wanted to do something impactful. And you weren't always allowed to say that. Yeah. You weren't allowed to be ambitious. You weren't always allowed to say. that you just wanted to do something like where we started. You just wanted to do something that felt valuable, that felt impactful, that would leave a lasting

mark on the world. And that's a good thing. It should be what we, I mean, whatever you're doing. It's aspirational. You want to leave your mark. Yeah. And it's every human being deserves to try and put their signature on life and on and on the world and carve out a little thing that feels like they made an impression.

What else are we here for? Yeah. You know, I mean, and I don't think it has to be big. You know, we don't, you know, it's just like, what do you stand for? Yeah. What do you believe in? And how do you further that in what you do every day? Yeah.

How do you express yourself? Yeah. And then what are you working on now? Like, what are you here to talk about anything that you're? I mean, not really. I mean, I, I, so I, we did this thing at Red Rocks last year called three pianos. So I put out a book called Three Pianos, which is sort of like about my relationship with the three most important pianos in my life. And it sort of tells the stories of my life, my bands,

and my music against the backdrop of these conversations with my pianos. So last summer, we did a red rock show. So all three bands, all three pianos on stage. And that's cool. We sort of move through like a set with each band and then everybody comes together. And I'm bouncing from one piano to the next and all three bands are playing together and we're playing each other's songs never like i mean i've been a guy who's like at lucky best maybe four thousand tickets is like a huge show for me the big show yeah great i mean and i this is not me complaining i've been i'm so proud of my i'm so proud of what i've i've been able to do and the fact that i can feed my family doing it red rocks was like nine 10 000 people sold that sold out red rocks sold out

within minutes of the show and it was like because we got everybody together and it was like this beautiful thing where for me, selfishly, I got to live all of my music in one place with all the guys I made it with. And for fans, I think it was cool because there are people who've just followed this thing and have been so kind to go with me from one project to the next to have it all be in one spot. So we're going to do three more of those in August. So we're going to do Philly, Chicago, and Long Beach, which I'll be careful what you wish for because... Did they all sell out? I think the first two are like close. These are these are of course, we're picking bigger venues of Red Rock.

I think the first two will, Long Beach is like, it's a venue that's just been built. It hasn't even actually been finished yet. So I'm kind of like hoping, you know, that as people start seeing shows there, that it'll be like, okay. But it's going to, I mean, it'll do well. It's going to do great. It'll be the biggest show I've sold in, in L.A. for sure.

It's going to be great. But yeah, so those are going great. I don't even know why I asked if it's sold out, but. Come, come. Red Rock's selling out is a super iconic. It was one of the more important nights in my whole career. It's incredible. It was really special.

Congrats. And so we're doing that. Like, I'll do a bunch of sort of solo acoustic stuff just because I've like, we've done these two years of reunions with Jackson something corporate over the last two years. I'm kind of like craving sitting at a piano by myself in front of a crowd and just like winging it. So I'll do a little bit of that this year. And then we have two symphony shows in November for my foundations.

a cancer survivor. I have a charity called the Deer Jack Foundation, which we do programs for adolescents and young adults facing cancer. So our big benefit this year is in Denver, and we're doing two nights with the Denver Symphony. Amazing. Yeah, which is going to be cool. How long has it been now since you beat cancer? It was 20 years this past summer. Jeez. Yeah. Can you believe that? Unreal. Yeah. Having that experience, did it really make you like health focused? Like, fuck no oh my god so how do you explain my god no i mean i'm just saying like 20 years oh god it was a nightmare 20 years cancer free is like is is an accomplishment yeah and it's like

it's an incredible thing to say thank you no how do you how do you do that well initially in the worst way humanly possible i would i was like how hard can i part like the second i was off the leash like I did anything and everything to prove that I was alive you know you like I mean I'm talking

like is there a water tower let's climb that shit you know what I mean like I mean just anything to put my physical person in danger for like five or six years I was just like that's what I want to do any

wild man all the drugs all I mean really everything it was not everything but almost Yeah, but everything. I mean, it was like, yeah, I wanted so badly to reclaim my existence and prove that I was untouchable that I, and it was so unhelp. I mean, it was like, thank God for my wife. She saved my life.

She was like, you are going to fucking like go see a therapist now or you're on the street. Like, you know, like it was like, and I was like, okay, you know, and that was like when my life post-cancer really started. And that was probably five, six years into my recovery. Wow. And yeah, now it's like, yes, now I'm like, I'm very health conscious and I eat well and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm either surfing or in yoga like every day. Like I'm just, yeah. And I care much more about it now.

I'm also like in my 40s now. So I'm just like, can I Benjamin button this a little bit? You know what I mean? Like can I work backwards? I'm trying. But, uh, you look great. Thank you. And so do you.

I mean, like, I think we've done a good job. I was like, I was like thinking about us on your like, first met. Yeah. I mean, you guys took us on a tour that I still, to this day, more than any other tour I've been on, fans first saw me at the shows that we played with you guys. I think it was like right before North came out, our second something corporate record. And you guys were so generous, took us on that tour. And I just think, I mean, I'm, I mean, we were freaking kids.

You guys were, I mean, it was awesome. It was such a fun. It was such a fun tour. You guys were awesome and it was awesome and it was a cool time. And I always felt that you were exactly like you are now. I was way more stone. Yeah, but you were an open, you were an open accepting positive person. And that's what I've always kind of been drawn to.

I love it when I'm with someone. I don't need to prove anything to. It feels like for me, we were coming up in a scene where it felt like around every turn, we had to prove something to someone. And I was like, I just want to play music and I want to be successful and I want to have a shot to do the best I can. And you did it to the fullest. I mean, that was, I mean, it was always impressive to us, like, watching how you guys ended up straddling that line and blowing past it, you know, and I think, and at a time where like I, like you're saying, I think there was a propensity for people in that world to sort of like want what you guys had, but also want to, you know, to sort of shit on anybody that got it.

Yeah, because they were like, they were in conflict with themselves. Yeah, of course. And I just, I just always had such an appreciating. for it and the way that you opened the door for us. Like, I mean, you, that was, you took us on an arena tour. We'd never, I don't think it ever even, I don't think we ever played in an arena. And you took us out for like, you know, that, I think it was, was it a lifestyle that was that, was that a tour? On the second album, yeah, it was the first arena tour we ever did. Yeah.

I mean, and it was like, I just remember like walking, we were walking around and like, you know, what, what is it like the target center or whatever it is, and just being like, well, this is crazy. Yeah. You know, and I was like secretly writing songs. I think that we're going to become the job. Max Manick and record at my piano and sit in the hallways and we'd all run into each other in the hallways. And it was like, yeah, I think it's, what you guys have built is amazing. The fact that we're sitting in your, like, sick offices. It's like, you know, like, and you, and, but I, I think you guys, you always had that. Like, me, I've always, like, I, I'm, I'm just sort of like, I'm, I'm,

I'm scrappy, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I run lean, but I'm always, I'm always fighting. It's like, and I, I have such an appreciation. for the mind, the music and the mind of like, how do we take this and raise up new artists and have our hands and things that people wouldn't dream of? It's really pretty cool. Thank you. I think it's just world building.

Yeah. Hell yeah. Just building out your own little world and continuing to build on it like you have. Yeah. And then what I've always found is I'm not in conflict with myself. And when someone, when it feels like, like, Coming from that scene, it felt like people were conflicted.

Yes. And I wasn't. And so when I learned how to step away and just ask myself, like, how do I feel? Instead of how do you feel? How does he feel? Yeah. Then I could make a decision that I felt good about and not be conflicted, even if that whole group of people who have known me for all of two years or five years or three seconds,

they still don't know me. Yeah. I'm not here to hurt anyone. I'm not here to stop anyone. I love that. I'm not here to hurt anyone. No. And I'm not here to stop anyone from living their very best life and of achieving all their dreams.

I am a cheerleader through and through for everyone. I'm not in conflict with anyone. I learned how to be secure in myself. And that took time, therapy, all that same stuff. You find a great person. Again, what's the power of a partner, your wife, who believes in you and loves you? She doesn't think party that going up on a tower and risking your life is cool when it's the person she loves. And therefore, she's not blinded by the fantasy of the rock and roll thing or fame or money or this or that.

They just see a person they love and they go, I want you to live a long time and be happy and this doesn't look like that. And when you find more and more of those people, my wife's been incredible in that way. You double down on just being yourself. And for me, being me is not partying or being a rock star. It's just like being happy. Yeah. And for me, happiness is a simple thing. It's pretty simple.

It's like be in a place I like to be, work with people I like, do things I love. And yeah, be healthy. It does feel good to be healthy. What we were doing when we were younger is, I think, the risky behavior, the destructive behavior, all that is something like, I don't value myself. Well, I think it's also, like, I think that I, and I haven't given as much credit to the fact that it's like, it's also like we were in our teens and our 20s. Yeah.

But it's like, you just do that shit. Yeah. But we got to do so much more of it because we had a license to, you know, it's like usually like, well, you're in college, but you kind of got to like pass. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, for us, you could pass and excel. at being an absolute fucking lunatic because people loved it. Yeah.

And it was fun. You got celebrated. And I like, and I try now to give myself more forgiveness for some of that because it's like, well, no shit. Of course we did. Of course. You know what I mean? Like the problem would be still like with time and maturity and family and all of these

things to still be there. I like to, I mean, I like to put my hand on the fire from time to time. You know, you know, but like, I don't want to live in it. You know, and I think, and I think there's, but it was kind of beautiful too. Yeah. You know, but yeah, but there are things I'm just like, what the hell was I thinking? Also, you grow up and you realize like, like what you've built, your legacy with what you've built with your cancer foundation, right?

What your, your catalog of music. Yeah. And your songwriting, the next 20 years of your life, because the legacy that you've already built is so concrete and strong, in my opinion. What you do on top of that, you're so much closer to game-changing results from effort that is not, it's not a stretch for you because you've been doing it for so long. It's not a stretch for you to go write a brilliant song. It's not a stretch for you to go and discover something artistically because you've been in this, right? And you understand the process so much.

That's the most exciting thing to me. This is what excites me now. Is that the legacy that you've built is so, it's so concrete and foundationally sound in what you've achieved that it's not a stretch that your cancer foundation won't do something incredible because it's set up and has been established. It's not a stretch that you artistically won't do something incredible. So that's the interesting part is the optimist looks forward and goes, all I see is possibility. Yep.

The 30 years I spent getting here, that was actually the hard part. If I said you have to go back and redo all of it, you'd be like, fuck. I don't think I can. Well, I think now it's like big swings, right? I think that's what's fun now. It's like what we were doing when we were kids, we were taking a big swing. But in a way, we didn't really, like it was like, well, yeah, of course, everybody wants to be in a band. Like why wouldn't, you know, like, I think now it's kind of like, okay, I have this.

Sometimes it's daunting, right? Like, sometimes you have a catalog of songs and you're like, man, it's hard. You've got to beat these things, you know, so there's a little, I still carry that with me. Like, I still want to write a better song than the ones I wrote before. That's a challenge. But it's also like, but what else is there, right? Like, what else can I get into the mix with that brings me joy? You know, that's fun.

And like you say, world building and gets me to work with weirdos that I would, never have dreamed of working with. Like, how can I use some of that legacy to get me in rooms with strange people that bring exciting things into my life? And that's kind of like, what's the new sandbox? How do we play? Yeah. Because that's what the joy of this life has been, is that, like, my job has been to play.

Yeah. You know? And you had strong, I mean, something corporate, Jack's Manikin and your solo stuff is all, like, strong. It's all, like, equally. they rival each other. Do you know what I mean? Which is a hard thing to do.

It's because I'm always competing with myself. Like your fan... But your fan group, right? They all know you from different things. And they know you for all three. But you could have people who came in on something corporate or that came in on Jack's Manichin. And it's really interesting.

It's not everyone achieves that. But so what are the dates of the shows? They're in August. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's, I think it's the last three weekends in August. Tickets on sale. Tickets on sale. And then, yeah, and then more will come up.

Solo dates will come up and whatnot. But, yeah, I'm never good at promoting things. What's your main Instagram? AMN, the Wilderness. There we go. Yeah. We promoted your Instagram. Yeah.

It's awesome, dude. Well, Andrew, thanks, thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Awesome. Thank you for listening to this episode of Artists Friendly. You can also watch the episodes on Spotify. Spotify premium users get no commercial breaks on my show. Make sure to follow, like, and comment because I always read the comments.