Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Atiba Jefferson

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Atiba Jefferson. Jefferson is a storied photographer within punk and alternative spaces. From his work in the revered skateboarding magazine Thrasher and being a staff photographer for the Los Angeles Lakers to shooting AP’s WILLOW cover in 2021, Jefferson embodies the culture. “I am still always inspired by so much new skateboarding and photography,” he told AP, but whether he’s unveiling collaborations with Supreme or Modernica, music remains in the foreground. During his conversation with Madden, Jefferson digs into his beginnings in the skateboarding world, capturing everyone from Playboi Carti to Tyler, the Creator, and his biggest inspiration. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden and this is artist friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to an award-winning photographer who got his start in skateboarding and music, but has gone on to photograph some of the most iconic people in sports, music, film, television, fashion, and beyond. Atiba Jefferson, let's go. So Josh and me were talking about you and have many times. He's been telling me about you for years. He's been telling me about you for years. Yeah. Right? Yeah, no. We were talking this week because I was like, I got Atiba coming up and I was excited to have you on. And we were talking about how we feel like you're one of the most important photographers of our

time because you're coming from, and this is our theory on art. We think because you came up through skateboarding, you didn't get all the pretension that a lot of photographers who break out through fashion and other ways. egos I trip on. And it becomes almost like it not about the simple art of capturing a moment that, like you said, the moment that'll never happen again, who's to say when you know to push the button on that camera? 100%.

And what angle? It could be a completely different picture if you were this just moved a couple inches. It happens all the time to me. You know? And so I don't even see good like with my photography until that Tyshawn kickflip. I always see not a bad photo, but what I can improve. Yeah. Like when I take a look at my photography, I never go, you nailed it. I go, maybe once, maybe just a smidge, the light here, this, like I just did a shoot with Caitlin Clark. Like,

I was so excited to shoot her. And the photos came out great. But even when I see it, I'm like, well, that's the artist. But it's your eye. Yeah. And it's your experience. And it's your life experience. And it's your humility. Yeah. There's something about that. I'm telling you, there's something about where you come from. It's why I think we have an edge when we build businesses because we're not coming from the same world. We're coming from a different world and we don't have the rules and we don't have any pretension. We think everyone's valuable. Yeah. So we're always looking at everyone because we're saying like who's the next special person and what are they? It's funny. I've been doing, I'm working with vans coming up on a bunch of stuff.

And, you know, what I always say is like, doesn't have to be the biggest, doesn't have to be the best. What is that special? What makes someone special? Like, it's more about finding people that are special in this day and age, I think, than finding the one that necessarily has the most followers, the one that has this. Who is that person when they walk in the room? You go, well, that's how you know someone's special. It's like, it's an amazing thing. And not everyone has that.

Like Kobe Bryant, whenever he walked in a room, you know, like Ian Mackay when he walks in a room, the first time I met him, he walked into family. You, you're like, you're fucking cool. Everyone was like, whoa. And there's so many young people like that. Like, I'm a big fan of Playboy Cardi. And ever since I first met him, I was like, that kid is special. Yeah, he is.

He's dope. He's really, really. And the funny thing is he was like, it was a shoot, it was a young thug, 21 Savage and him. for this Adidas job. And he goes, none of them know who you are. I know who you are. I'm a skater.

I know exactly who you are. Like, I'm so psyched to shoot with you. And like... He seems cool like that. I don't know him personally. He has a bad religion tattoo. Yeah. You know?

Like, what? And that was young. I was like, you have a bad religion. He's one person I've always wanted to talk to. No, he's just different. He's great. He's great.

He's great. And so influential on what he's doing. Like, one of the most influential wild. Yeah. It is really, but you saw it

when you first heard Magnolia, you were like, this is special. Again, another guy, Playboy Cardi is another artist did I feel like moves

on his own path. It's psycho. It's psycho. He does not give a fuck. Nope. He's going to do what he wants to do. That's it. And I just feel like

he's so influential in leading artists down a path of, do what you feel. Yeah. Don't let the walls cave in on you of what is supposed to be big, what is supposed to be. And he's built a big career.

Yeah. It's wild. Even the last shoot I did or did a cover with him for double XL that he asked for me to do, he called me up and said, I need you to do this for me. I'm like, cool, let's do it. Obviously, it's going to be at night, hip-hop hours. But like we did the shoot from like 10 to midnight in the studio and around the studio and went back to the music studio and listened to new music, why he made the edit on everything was cropping it and going yep and i was like seeing his creative process work wasn't exactly how i would have picked it yeah but i stand back and go no i respect your vision yeah yeah let it be an artist because i think that's the other thing too for me and and and i kind of laugh at photographers that have egos and all good if you do and you think you're the

greatest but you're only as good as your subject when you are shooting people yeah and i think um photographers that shoot people are kind of low-level artists. Like, of course, we can call ourselves artists, but no. Like, to me, music is way high on that, painting and music. Painting and music. And, you know, I kind of laugh because you can sit here and call me a very important photographer, right? But the reason why is because I, A, shoot the things that I love

and think that I'm so lucky to have those moments. and also very lucky to have picked some really cool subject matters. But I am only as good. Right. Like if I was shooting a bad basketball player, I thought it would be cool or a bad skater. It would be cool. But less iconic. Exactly.

And we got it. That's okay. But the thing is, that's the humility. Exactly. That's the part that. And that's my ego that I can always check at the door where there are other photographers who can't do that. And I kind of laugh at those photographers because I'm like, you're wasting so much energy

of being an asshole with your ego when you have to realize you're only good because of who you shot. And I always laugh at it. It's a joint effort. Yeah. Oh, 100%. Making art together. 100%. And that's when it's really great to me because when you're in a situation, I shot this.

This was a really amazing shoot that I did with the edge from you to his wife's sister is married to this amazing. amazing dancer. And we did the show. We're actually going to take it to Cuba. And she had a handful of different photographers all shoot him. But it was improv like there's no music. There's no communication. And so I'm in this studio and I just have my cameras and he's moving.

You know, this improv dancing around this space. And you're not even talking to each other. Not at all. So you're just a spectator. But at the same time, I'm moving with him because... You're shooting it. Like at a basketball game, I'm a spectator, 100%. Right.

This is where I play piano and I play a lot of jazz. So it's like improv. So if I'm seeing him go here, put his hand here, I was like, okay, wide angle down there. It was like 45 minutes. It was the craziest shoot, like one of the wildest shoots I've ever done. And to the point, you know, there's moments where we're staring at each other throughout this. But at that very young, he's staring at me. and I'm still shooting.

It's like, that's it. You know, I got so consumed with creating this art with this person that I didn't even know. Loved it. I mean, it was completely different than anything that I've ever done. And I love doing that. Like, for me, with photography, I never wanted to be just a skateboard photographer. To me, I always want to be the skateboard photographer that took skateboarding ideas into sports and portraiture. And that's what I've built my career on.

Absolutely. that's exactly. I never, you know, there's a lot of photographers to be like, I don't shoot portraits. I only shoot action or vice versa. And like, to me, that's just putting a limitation on yourself, which is nothing that I ever want to do. You don't feel drawn to capture video.

I mean, it's not that I don't, but I think like why I love stills is because it's this singular moment that will never happen again. Yeah. And you actually stop to think about it. the composition of it, what it takes to create it is such a special thing. Yeah. Moving video is great, but only for me, like, all direct music videos, but very rarely.

For your friends or. Yes, I got to be into the music. Right. And documentaries. So documentary filmmaking is something I would love to see myself go more into that space. I love storytelling because that's what I do. my photography. I love documenting stuff. I did a documentary called Monochrome, which is on ESPN Plus, and it came out about a year and a half ago. And it's the story about the black experience in

skateboarding. Wow. And yeah, it was a great project. My friend Steve Lawrence brought me in as co-director. We actually got nominated for a sports Emmy. Awesome. And we won a Cleo. So it, It did its thing. You know, you have to have VSPM Plus to watch it. So it's not ready, easily watchable for those who don't have that. But it was a great thing. And I want to continue that story. That story we could only tell so much in such a small period.

And we made it during the pandemic, which was a complete nightmare. This was like dead pandemic where testing and people traveling. So I think once we would do a part two, we could tell that story. because it's an amazing story that a lot of people don't understand in skateboarding because it goes from, you know, skateboard parks, invert ramps being the gatekeeper, right? You had to be rich. Right. And then once street skating happened, all you needed was a skateboard.

You went outside your door. So anyone from any walk of life all of a sudden had the access to it versus when you had to have a skate park membership and all that stuff to do it. Once street skating happened, it was open to every walk of life. I'mena. And, like my music, my hair changed with me and has to be able to keep my rhythm. For so, Potion 9 of Sebastian Professional has everything my hair needs. Nutrition Profunda.

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Isn't it interesting? Like, the ideas around certain things that have been kept and not accessible to people unless they have a certain amount of money, they live in a certain area. Think about that too. Like, where do they build the skate parks? Exactly. I grew up in Colorado and I grew up about an hour and a half south of any snowboarding ski resort.

right never skied or snowboarded once because I couldn't afford it right it's so expensive yeah people be like what you grow up in Colorado like didn't happen one time in my life that's funny I always joke with my wife because obviously now I have the means to ski or snowboard but I didn't growing up so we just don't do it yeah it's a rich person thing a hundred percent and um we joke now because my kids can ski and snowboard they have access to it and they can do it and it's funny how when you give a kid anything they figure it out Those early years of development are the most important time to develop all your abilities and your idea of what you're capable of. Yeah.

All happened in those first 13 years, I think. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I love golfing and I'm a terrible golfer. I picked it up at 20, probably 23, 23, 24. Yeah. But I've been doing it 20 years. Oh, yeah.

I have fun. I never get mad. I know I suck. You know, there was a period where I took it very serious and I know I'm just never going to be good. but I'll go with people who grew up doing it. And that swing is so natural and smooth. It's, you just see, and it's kind of like skateboarding. Like I'll tell people, like, people will be like, are you good?

And I'm like, no, I shoot the best, the best of the best, the best of all but do it, the best I do do it. And me on a skateboard is someone who doesn't skateboard, yeah, I can 360 flip. They'll be like, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm not. It's like, you know, you really, once you start. start photographing and documenting people are really great, you really realize how great greatness is. I think that that story that you're telling about what it means to a group of people that have no access.

Yeah. Right? Is really, really important and good. I like, I love that story. Yeah. So I want to talk about that more. But skateboarding, don't you feel like your interest, your love for it, in it, and your ability to do it and enjoy it?

led you to your career? Oh, 100%. Like, it was a vehicle that carried you. 100%. I think skateboarding as a learning process is the best process there is. Because, and this took me a long time to figure out. But a friend of mine, this was like in my 20s, way after I've been skateboarding, was like, he doesn't skate.

And we were at Tompkins Square Park, me and a buddy, we were just skating. And he's like, you just fall all day. You're not making it. anything you suck. You know, 90% of the time you're falling. He's like, why do you do that? What is so fun? And to me, I never had thought about it.

And when I was going through the motions of explaining, it's the learning process. It's an hour of failure for 1.5 seconds of total joy. Exactly. And that learning process, like the learning process of how to kick flip, I had been taking that throughout my life. The learning process that I learned. the process of learning a skateboard trick, I applied that to photography.

I applied that to everything in life, and I say that's gotten me where I am. And if I wasn't a skater, if I wasn't so comfortable with failing over and over, I think I would have a different outlook on life. But that learning process and the failure part and the victory, it just makes you way more humbled, I think. I mean, I think being a skater period,

especially when I grew up, It wasn't cool. Everyone tried to beat you up. You were an outcast at school. Now everyone skates. It was funny. There was a Vance event and this cop asked to get a photo with me and I was like, I wanted to say no. Yeah.

I wanted to be like, no, I can't do that. You know, and I couldn't because I'm not a mean person. Yeah. But I was like, my life has gotten to the point that a cop wants a photo and he's showing me his clips this guy fully skates yeah you know and that's just where we're at in 24 right like you know but for me growing up and feeling like when I saw someone with the scraped up like ollie hole in their shoe knowing that they were a skater yeah you know just you skate i skate where there's very few of us that led me just to always searching out that bond with people and it doesn't necessarily need to be

skate now at this point but you realize how special it is to come connect with people over a passion that they love. Yeah. Were you a skater first or a photographer first? Skater. Skater is skateboarding has led me to loving art and graffiti. Board graphics. I say this all the time.

The artwork. Photography. Thrashier magazine tearing that up, putting that on the wall. Fashion. It's in streetwear, Stusi, all that stuff. Music and the skate videos. Skate videos, filmmaking. It all like, it all is just this.

big nucleus of like creativity that creative like just yeah it you know but skateboarding was first and then led to loving music and loving this and loving that but skateboarding is always the catalyst photography is my favorite thing no doubt like i see pictures i i can't turn it off but it's the skateboard like that's what i i hear met i always think like metaphors like that we live right like the skateboard is the vehicle that carried you forward. 100% as long as you got back up. Yeah. And I love skateboarding.

Like once a week, I have a mini ramp in my backyard. Once a week I go to Frogtown to the skate park to skate. Oh, that's cool. I make my time to skate. Like, where's my twin, he's like, he'll skate every six months. I'm like, that's crazy. I like go crazy if I can't skate for myself by myself. Like what my friends, but for me, it's always tough because if I'm out going

skating and shooting a pro skater, I'm going to a 16th stair handrail. I'm not going to skate that. Right. Very seldom am I on a session where it's like a small ledge that I love ledge skating. Yeah. So, and I have a group of friends, Tim Robinson, I was talking about earlier, who's in my age bracket, and we make sure we have our own sessions. How old are you? 47. Okay, I'm 45. Okay. Yeah. We grew up in the same era. Yes. Yeah. It's funny, you know, when you think about the era of these ideas that we were interested in skating music, right, starting a band in your garage or whatever, that weren't valuable at the time. There wasn't, it wasn't like TikTok or there wasn't a platform where you could overnight get some kind of attention and see like, oh, it's working,

right? You really had to blindly go forward and with no real perception of like, first of all, no one around you is saying like, oh, that's super valuable what you're doing. There's, there's a lot of value in that. There's just saying, like, we're wasting all your time. I'm skating or in there playing with your friends, your music. Good luck, kid. And then over the decades, the stories emerge of people who had success. And then people as a society, we start to recognize the repetition of those stories, more and more stories. And we all start to go, oh, that's valuable. You could really, you could be someone, right? That's funny because now when someone says, I'm dedicating my life to skateboarding, you actually go, oh, cool, like, there's a chance there.

100% I mean now it's Olympic sport versus versus the 90s you're like oh yeah educating my life to this even photography right 100% like I never planned my plan was never to come to California and become this big photographer and being video games or whatever the merits over you know 300 covers of different magazines like that wasn't the goal my goal was literally like I want warm weather I'm going to work at 7-11 but I'm going to be able to skate. That was me peaking. How old were you? 18 when we moved. Wow. And you and your brother? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Just the two of you? Just the two of us broke.

Just fucking came out. Broke. Like I actually was working at a skate shop in Colorado Springs called BC Surfing Sport. We started working really young. We grew up super poor. So only way, like food stamps, free cheese, single mom. So it was like get a job. And we started working a Mexican restaurant. We lied. We were actually 12. We said we were 13 because we had two months before our birthday. We were busboys. And then we became prep cooks and line cooks. And then when I was 16, when it was the legal age to actually work a job, I got lucky to work at a skate shop. And that was that was it. That was the best job. I'm going to work here forever. And I always say if you can work in an industry that you love, you're never working. You're always going to be happy. So that's

That's how I was. And I met two pro skaters, Josh Beagle and Ronnie Krieger. They were visiting, and they were like, come to California. I had never left the state. So for me, I didn't know anything else. So I was really content. All it took was one. I landed at John Wayne Airport, was visiting them in Laguna. I was like, this is 100% it. Yeah, done. I flew back. I was like, Occo, I'm going to check it one more time in the spring, checked it. And we were. loaded up and moved by May. And we didn't know what we were doing. I mean, we got so lucky. We got so unbelievably lucky. Opportunities. And my brother got a job at Trans World.

I got a job assisting a photographer, Grant Brent, who's great, who taught me so many things. So people want to say you make your own luck, but no, I think a lot of things are right time, right place. Well, had you not packed up the car and gone forward. Yeah. So as I say to people, there is some. version of the harder you work, the luckier you get, right? There is something of that. But you have to go down the road. You have to go forward. Yeah, you got to try. You got to try, not knowing, you got to be compelled to go forward by a feeling like, I think something's down that road I'm

going to go, not knowing what it is. And then the happy surprises are each little opportunity, you go, is this it? This might be the reason I did this. And then you can't fully judge it, though. And the patience. The patience. The patience is like such a crucial thing that I look back at people now. And this is what's crazy too. I do a good amount of lecturing at colleges now with Canon camera because I'm an ambassador. So there's a whole program dedicated to education and workshop, which has been unbelievable. But so many of the younger kids are like, yeah, but how do I get to where you're at? You're like a lot of talking. time and effort. And that's what I always tell them just to be patient. It's not going to happen

overnight. And it didn't for me. But, you know, not worrying about the success rate and like what I needed to get from point A to point B never made me, you know, like, want to give up. I think that's what people can give up. But I also think that's what can really motivate people. And I have a, you know, I know people are like, I want to be a photographer because I want to make money off of it. I always was like, that's wild. I know people have done that. So there's no specific way of doing it. Yeah.

I talk to my therapist about this all the time. Energy and effort over time always equals results. Yeah. We don't know what they are. Yeah. And then you get older, you get more experience, right? Then you have experience. So it's really informed, organized effort.

Yeah. And then you just keep refining, refining. And the opportunities get bigger because you stay in the space. You have to stay in the space. You can't change directions and completely jump out of the space. You can do that, but there's a bit of starting over when you do that. If you were like, I'm going to go and I'm going to be a doctor. Yeah.

You're like, okay, I got to change my. But if you're in and around the space of art. Yeah, creativity. Creativity. Yeah, there's no college needed. There's no. Right. It's just the sooner you get to it and the sooner you start putting forth effort,

you can start to figure out and realize your path, the creative space can be cloudier because it's not so it's a little bit more in this time that we're in there are are lines you can see that other people have done and you could replicate what they do on social media or this or that yeah exactly but the creative endeavor as a whole generally is one of trusting your gut and going forward and doing things that you believe in things you love and then you'll figure out what it becomes or what the results mean. Yeah, because I think it's always being true to your art form and, you know, your passion of what you do. I've been tripping lately on like Tyler, the creator because he's like a kid who I've seen since he was a little kid.

I love Tyler. Hanging out, you know, him breaking down boxes in the back of Supreme. Yeah. And I remember seeing him around Fairfax. Yeah. And now he's got an LV line. Like that's the proof. And he never compromised anything.

He kept it 100% Tyler the whole time. One of the great artistic stories of our time, I think Tyler, the creator. I don't know. He's just being himself. 100%. And that is so hard to do. Yeah. When the world tells you not to be yourself.

And they do it explicitly and they do it implicitly. Yeah, 100%. And they want yonkers. they want this one thing over and over and over and over and it's like nah and he is like overtly like fuck you yeah always and he's always kind of been that dude and that's the one consistent thing with him but you look at it and just like where he's at and what he's done musically and fashion and art and you're like this is wild like i literally've watched this kid just keep it 100 i i've I watched him at the carnival this year,

and I hadn't seen him perform in a little bit. And I'm like, this is, this wild. Yeah, it's awesome. You know, I did like a tour big day out with him in like 2011, you know, and like to see. And that was already things were starting, but nowhere near where they are now. It feels like he just makes his decisions and sticks with his.

Yeah, 100%. Because that's what he's been doing the whole time. And there's certain people like that where you're almost like, they saw their vision from day one. And they didn't compromise. Didn't compromise. Yeah, I love him. I don't even know him.

I saw him around when he was younger. Yeah. And always rooted for him. Yeah. I always thought, okay, there's a hero. Those are the heroes we need. We need people that are just coming in here and doing what they want to do

and telling all the fucking adults and the people with money and the people with this that are telling them, over the years, I can only imagine how many times he's been faced with something that they dangled in front of his face like and said if you do this we'll give you this and he will i can just feel him saying no i'm

gonna do the opposite of what you want to do it exactly and that's what we need yeah because i think a lot of times when you come especially from poverty yeah you come into it and all the people with money are hanging it in front of your face and just saying i need you to walk a little bit to the left here on this line yeah and if you do that we can yeah and there's nothing wrong with guidance as long as that like Iance is right you know I think Kelly and Clancy and his team have obviously done great stuff yeah you know like I mean I hadn't been to carnival in a long time and I was this it's crazy yeah like I have you I don't know if you've been to that but you should check it out at Dodger stadium the next time I'm sure he'll do it again next year yeah I hadn't been in like five or six

years yeah yeah and I mean my kids are like crazy about him now too which is cool yeah it's it's cool to see that yeah you should 100% if you haven't gone i was shocked because it's also not only you know you've had your success in playing big stages and stuff like that but it was more like the interaction the people so young still like tyler isn't the youngest person anymore nobody's built a culture it's crazy yeah it is something that you cannot my 14 year old son is he doesn't skate, but he makes music. And he loves Tyler. Right.

And that's one of his. And I think that's so cool. Yeah. Like I'm glad you picked Tyler. Yeah. Tim's son, who's our homie, Buster, Buster loves Tyler and Buster loves run the jewels. Sparrow likes Tyler, run the jewels. He loves Travis.

He crosses the whole spectrum. He likes some big stuff, but it's got to feel artistic. But to me, like R.T.J. they're homie, homies, like Wilder and Torbett, co-producers, Jamie, Mike, family. And to see it resonate, they're in their late 40s, right? Like even Mike winning all these Grammy. It's like... That was cool.

It's so cool, you know, because it doesn't always happen like that. And it makes sense when it's a Billy Elish and people who are great at a young age. Yeah. That happens, you know, when you think about historically when there's certain bands like Christopher Cross, a lot of people don't realize, he, like, swept the Grammys with his first record. Yeah. And, like, if you look back, he bodied everyone. I think that's still one of the greatest records ever.

But, you know, he did that first try, you know. You have a lifetime to make the first record. You do. And then you got to figure it out. Every other record is like... But a lot of bands, I think, what, like, I always say it. Like, I love later strokes. Yeah.

Better than a first record. you know, I think, I mean, turnstile. I love turnstile. They're just keep getting better. Yeah, they do. And better. They really keep just artistically, musically. They're another one too.

Brendan has never, like, I've been a fan of them now for about eight years is when I first discovered them on the first record. And I remember being like, they're great. This man's great, but I never thought they would get big as they got. And important. important and super important yeah and you know us coming from the history of hardcore and punk rock and seeing them you know be still true to that but do it in their own way it's just been phenomenal but it's great i love when i see music progress that's such a hard thing to do because of the way we consume it

unfortunately yeah now it's nice to see bands grow yeah and have success yeah because it's really it's really hard. Yeah, I saw your, I saw your turnstall hat and I was like, I knew you like turnstile, but I love turnstile, man. They are, they're family. They stay at my place. Oh, that's cool. They seem like really nice guys.

I'm friends with Franz. Yes, Franz has, they all have keys to my house. I get them all keys so they can come and go whenever they want. Yeah, Franz is a brother to me. And they do the same when I'm in Baltimore, you know? Yeah. That's also what's cool. was like they really still love the scene in Baltimore

and they still rep Baltimore so hard. And that opened a whole other view of different bands and scenes when I go visit them and go to Auto Bar and kick you on Johnny Rad. Yeah, it's crazy. Auto Bar still. Yeah, because where are y'all, y'all are from Maryland, right?

We're from Maryland, but we're from like kind of far down in the country. So we're like Southern Maryland. So we didn't really have a. What was your closest? The closest city was D.C. D.C. Okay.

But we went to Baltimore. Okay. And then moved. Are you far from Burtonsville? Burtonsville. Nothing's too far. Everything's like an hour and a half. I kicked it in Burtonsville.

Yeah. We moved out kind of the same story as you and your brother. Really financially, our family had fallen on hard times for many years. And at the, you know, high school years, single mom, got my first real job. job when I was 14. That was the earliest. Anyone would hire us. We worked at a pizza place, did everything, like, worked our asses off at that place. And that will humble you too, busing tables and cleaning up after people who will not tip you and give no respect. So we worked at a pizza place where it was a small family owned pizza delivery place. So they had pickup and

delivery. So we worked, me and my brother worked the counter. We would take the orders, make the pizzas, and then we'd have to clean the whole place. And then we were just giving the pizzas to the drivers. We were doing it all. Right, right. But very proud to work. So I really actually did like that job. Yeah.

The thing that I remember was it was a small town and we were in high school. And I remember the other kids getting to do stuff like go to parties and have the experience of like high school. And I was working like 40 hours a week. Yeah. And helping my mom keep the lights on or keep the phone on. on or um you know and and then we were renting houses and we'd get evicted from this house i don't know that my mom was ever really good at managing the financial aspects of adulthood yeah um god bless her

yeah his sweetheart yeah i've been able to you know help support my mom for a very long time and i feel very blessed to do that now i take a lot of pride in it because i love my mom my mom a house three years ago you know it's the best feeling in the world it's the best get your mom a house that's what every kid dreams of if you come from nothing. 100%. Isn't that the big, like, so great. It's the best.

It's great. I tell her no more Christmas and birthday presents for a while, but here's this house. There you go. And by the way, that is why you are who you are. Yeah.

I mean, you know, when you come from what you come from, you just realize, like, you know, I also, that's a whole deeper conversation because I think our government is just terrible

at the elderly and social security and, you know, Medicaid and, and Medicare and like my mom would be basically homeless collecting what was rightfully hers. Yeah. It's crazy. It's so crazy.

It's also why, you know, I struggle with politics because I love people so much. Right. And I really feel like politics get in the way of people connecting with one another. Yeah. And I don't think that like we're going to be able to imagine what it feels like to be one another. if we can't remove these ideas that politics kind of capture. Oh, yeah. They put between us.

So I struggle, but I do know that I believe in programs that help people, like welfare and things like that. I mean, we were the house that would get the food drive, the canned goods. Like, you know,

when I went to Fugazi show, we gave those cans. Yeah. But it was my house that received those. Yeah. So that was always something, you know, And even me, I wasn't great. And in the pandemic, I started volunteering at a community center in Watts.

And it was the best thing I could do with, and it was a food drive and just bag food up and every Friday. And it was my time was, you know, we weren't going anywhere. So like, I think it was a year and a half straight. I never missed it. Now it's so hard for me to get there because I'm traveling. Hey, you're back in the craziness. But I still, I did a fundraiser where I raised money for them.

and I'm still always connected. But I even was like, wow, I was a little embarrassed for my own self. Like, it took you 45 years to really give back back to something that, you know, and it's not that I was mad. But once I did it, I was like, that's something I need to continue to do a little bit more. Yeah, but. Because I also have the time. I don't have kids or family.

Yeah, but we all get to different places the real way. Yeah. And you're only supposed to do what you're supposed to do and what you feel. And so if it took you 45 years to get there to that community center, it wasn't the wrong time. Someone else was there in front of you. 100%. Well, that's what I look at. The people that are volunteering so amazing because I know someone's there.

But I also think that it probably took you 45 years to own your success. Yes. Like when we come from nothing, we don't actually think we are what we are. Like when we arrive to success, we still don't hold it. A lot of times we'll put it over here. And we're like, yeah, but instead of going like, no, I actually did that, I accomplished that and I'm special and I am valuable. And the world tells you for a long time,

especially like you're talking about when we started, the black experience in skateboarding. I can't, I don't know what that experience is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But I can only imagine that, okay, you want someone not to take you seriously in the 90s, tell them you're a skateboarder. Yeah.

You want them to really not take you seriously? if you're black, tell them you're a skateboarder. Right? For sure. So when you're told long enough that you don't matter. Yeah, it couldn't be present for ever. You could do anything but be present. It doesn't exist in your realm of possibility, right?

That is what you have to, you have to acknowledge that that affects you. You can't, you know, like the strongest people, we just get after it. But we have to also go back to the little young version of ourselves. It's overcompensating. Yeah. I always say all the time. I'm going to be somebody. Yeah, like my success and everything I do and my work ethic was overcompensating for being poor.

And only until now that I'm older, do I start realizing like, oh, you should just chill and enjoy things. Take a little more vacations. Do those things you don't. Like I used to feel like I had to shoot a photo every day. And like me coming here at 2 o'clock, I'd be like, why am I not in the streets? And like, as much as I love being in the streets and shooting that, I also realize, like, you've been doing that for 30 plus years. Now's kind of the time to...

It's okay. It's okay. 100%. Like, you're not, like, I am not the skate photographer. I was 10 years ago who was like at every, like, monumental moment. But that's okay because I did that for 20 years, you know. But I still love it. And the fact that, like, you know, there's this, this.

thrash or cover, I don't know if you've seen it of this kid, Tyshaun Jones, kick-flipping the train trucks. Yeah. Everyone brings this photo up to me. I had, in my whole career, that never happened, you know, so the fact that I was able to do that at like 45, I was like, oh, wow, that's insane. I was, I told myself I wouldn't be shooting street skating after 40. And here I am 47, and I still, like, have my crews that I love rolling with and still want to see them be successful with the help of my photography. So yeah, I got a couple more years.

I think that you should do what you feel compelled to do, but I do think that, like I was saying, like if it took me 45 years to get to a place where I thought it would matter that I would go to a community center, right? It took me 45 years to realize that it does matter. Yeah. Because when we're little, we're like, I'm going to be somebody because we feel like we're no one. Yeah. And then somewhere in our life, we actually do become someone.

We've become ourselves. Yeah. The thing that I had to get to was like, that's actually enough. Yeah. To be myself. To have arrived to the place where I like myself. Maybe why Tyler inspires me. He held the line.

100%. And he said, I'm me. And if you don't want me, fine. I'm just going to keep going on and being me. And that's what I struggled with was like feeling like I was valuable at all. Yeah. It's like doing this show. It took me four years.

Right. Because in my mind, I'm like, why would I, even do that. I want to do it, but does it matter? Does anyone want to hear? And then at somewhere in there, I went, no, you know what? I want to do it. I don't care. And that's what I think we all, especially if we come from a place where we felt or were made to feel like we don't matter. What we want to do doesn't matter. What's the point, right? It's this like learned hopelessness we get from all kinds of places for all different reasons. And that's why the black experience in skateboarding needs to be told again and again from this angle, from that angle. Totally. And all those stories, and not just in skateboarding, all the stories of the

people. Music. You think about the bad brains, a black punk band. What? And here we are all standing on their shoulders. Still. Yeah. No, it's crazy. It is such a great, like that band specifically. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's such a wild story. And like, I remember before I even skated, I went into, my mom raised us on great music. Took us to see Peter Tosh. That's like one of my first memories. And she would always go to the record store.

I remember she brought the specials record home. I was like, why do they look different? Because it was mostly just reggae. And I heard the bad brains. I heard Aigenstai and I remember me, I'm like, this is so cool. 12 years old. And that same day, we went across the street and we saw skate demo. And it was Matt Hensley and Ron Allen, Ron Allen, a black skater. And I was like, skating had already been like Police Academy 4 and cleaning a cube. Yeah. But we hadn't got into it. And I remember seeing Ron and

being like so inspired. But it was crazy to think about like one day, all that stuff came back. And then 2010, I was able to go on tour, like a small West Coast tour photographing Bad Brains, like original lineup. And that changed my life. You know, I was able to become very good friends with them and still talk to Daryl all the time. But I think back at it, and it is always tough because, you know, you see the growth of bands like yourself that have got really big green days and blinks. you know, because of the inspiration of the brains. Yeah. But like, you know, you see the misfits.

The misfits won. Get that big of a bag and you're just this punk band. Yeah. You know what I mean? Not that it's all about money, but you're like, you know, as much as we were like, will the misfits ever get back together? And then that's the way it happens. It's pretty wild.

Yeah. It isn't about the money, but it is about the money. It's about being able to live. Yeah. And like, why shouldn't, you know, I still see there's a fundraiser for HR coming up. And I'm like, that sucks. That really, and I'm a big jazz fan. And that's been happening in jazz for many, many years.

You just know jazz musicians are poor. Like, it's like you associate jazz musician poverty. Yeah. Like trying to get a stand-up base and a cab. Starving artists. New York City at 75 years old. It's crazy. It's really heavy to think about.

Whereas other ways you can hit it big and write a song with Autotune and AI now. Yeah. And you can't be mad at that either, you know? It's what it is. It's two different things. You know, there's the gamification of art and the monetization of it all is a big gamified. You see people who play the game well. I kind of probably sat somewhere in between.

I really love art. But I was driven to make a living because I, truly think part of our dream of being artists was to make it big and be rich and stuff. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong about it. Yeah. When you're poor, you think that this is my take, this is the way I could do that. So I couldn't go to college. And isn't rich like, it's all different, right? Like people will call me rich. And I'm like, well, I'm not 20 million dollar in the bankridge. But yes, do like, am I driving a nice car?

Do I own a house? Yes. Like, I've done the things that are way further than what. And I'm content. But I also, you know, I did some pretty corny things to get to where I'm at. And I was fine with that because I'm like, if I'm doing this thing for this corny company, mom's house is good. At the time I was like, I'm eating.

And I don't know when I'm going to. get this opportunity again. No, and that comes from the way we grew up. Yeah. I say yes to everything. So I think that there's something about what you do infusing it into the corporate world of brands. One, for the artistic aspect, two, I do still think the aspiration of photographers should aspire to greatness, whatever that means. And that in culturally speaking, it's important on all these levels, Right, all the way up to the big money corporate brand world to down to the street level. I think it's just to who the artist is and wants to be, right? Like, it's like Travis doing McDonald's.

Yeah, I loved it, by the way. That was like, I'm so happy. I mean, it's still one of my favorite fries next to it. And I know, I can't deny that. I think what they stand for is obviously not good and, you know, environmentally. But I'm like, but that's the way I think, whereas you know Ian's like, fuck that for life. And it just depends on the person you are. And I just look at things, you know, I always say I'm a hyper positive person. And I think in some ways that does have me be a little more that guy.

Yeah. Because I always see a little something positive in something. But I know that's also hard for some people to deal with because I'm always like, it's not that bad. Sometimes it is for people you know but for me i'm like my life is fucking great like i literally have like i woke up today day two of the hangover from the wedding and i was like your life's good what do you got to do today make a smoothie go do a podcast and like lurk like see if anyone's skating go ride my bike get some new cleats like it's a very but i i set myself up for that you're in that you earned it yeah there's plenty of days you didn't get to do that no for sure like tomorrow I'll be booked and the next day.

I even said for this wedding, I'm like, I'm so, it's always like, for a photographer, you want work, book a vacation. Like that quote is so unbelievably true. Like I was in the Florida Keys and got a call to shoot Jimmy Butler the day of the wedding. And I was like, okay, it's two hours back from Miami to the wedding. If y'all can have me out of there by 1230, I'll do the shoot. Did you do it? No, they, the shoot pushed a four.

So I was like, you know, I can't do it, you know. Luckily, I'd shot Jimmy twice, so it wasn't like. He's cool. He's so cool. The whole email thing. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. It's cool.

It's so, that's what I mean. That's the more of the crossing, you know, especially in the sports world. Like sports world is so notoriously not cool. Yeah. And it's always been just no one had the platform. And no one. Like, Karim Al-Duchabar was. going to Martin Luther King speeches and going to see Miles Davis and John Coltrane at night.

That's mind-blowing. Yeah. Like I talked to me and be like, I'd finish a game, go right to the club. I loved being in New York. I loved playing in New York because I knew I was going to see good jobs that night. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool to see athletes express themselves and do other shit.

Yeah. It's such a hardcore world. It's such a hardcore world. Yeah. It's such a box that. It's such a box. they get put into and it's it's so and they're real people with real like likes and interests and hundred percent you know like simple people that just want Kevin Durant loves Genghis Cohen who would

have thought that's crazy like that's one of its restaurants that's pretty cool exactly yeah that did like there's so many you know I think we put them on the pedestal and well they're under a lot of pressure and weight to be these role models and all this stuff. And I think anyone who's successful is to some degree, but athletes especially are expected. Yeah, way more. I mean, you know what it's like with your own success, you know, and I always say that like people approach me like the cop did or whatever. And I'm always like, my brother always like, you're not famous, you're popular. That's his whole thing. What's your brother do? He's a creative director. He's a creative director of Vand.

So we were always working together. So he's artistic too. Oh, yeah. He's a great graphic designer. He's like, you know, we work together and we've worked together. We worked at Trans World together. He did, if you remember, Warp, which turned into Stance. You're old enough to remember that.

And then he was at Soul Tech, which was like S. Etneys in the America for a big chunk. And then we started what was called the skateboard mag from 2004 to, I left around 16, if I'm correct. Then he went and did a little work for Beats by Dre, and he's been at Vans for about seven years. And you guys are twins? Identical twins.

And best friends. Like, if he walked in here, you couldn't, you wouldn't even know the difference. Do you live near each other? We live in Silver. Like, we're, I mean, you couldn't be better friends, but also, like, you know how it is. Yeah.

Like, I'm the younger one to him. I'm the younger one to him. He's 13 minutes. Five minutes. Five minutes. Wow. That's still long. And y'all are identical. Identical. So yeah, you know there's a, there's a special bond. Best friends. But we fought physically up until like I think the last time was probably like six years ago where it was just like a mellow choke out. But I was like, dude, we're in our 40s choking each other. We stopped physical fighting in our 20s. Right. Late 20s, I'd say it was the last physical fight we ever got into. It was pretty bad.

Yeah. There was some other stuff, but I also think we didn't have the emotional tools to communicate with one another. And then we started actually working on it, went to therapy. Yeah. Went to therapy together. Yeah, that's amazing because I do therapy. My brother's never gone to a therapist. Together is amazing.

And I'm like, dude, you need to go to therapy. We still do one, maybe once a month. That's great. Like, it's not planned, but on average, it's once a month. And it's like good of friends as we are. Like, it's taken a long time for us. Like there are points where, because we have the same friends, and we would get in these arguments and not talk to each other.

And do like, I'm not, I don't, I'm not calling him. Like, I'm not going to call him. Fuck him. And like it would get awkward because we group call are like the same best friends. Yeah. Call each other all day. Like I talked to my brother for easily an hour and a half every single day. Me too.

And it's just like headsets in. I'm doing this. He's doing that. Like anytime you're in a. car we're calling, but we would get into these things. And then I got older and I was like, it's a waste of time. And not saying that I took the high road or if he took the high road, but I started to realize, don't let the arguments escalate. Yeah. And it's really hard. We work really good together, but it can be, you know how it is. You won't, you'll say shit to your twin

that you went to other people, Matt can hurt them. Yeah. And vice versa. And we don't have the patience because we know them so much that I think we get so frustrated. Why are you not seeing it the way I see it right now? And that's where our work ethic, I really balance it and make sure that it never gets to. But if I work for him, like work for him for hire, it's a different relationship because I know I have to be my like work hired Atiba. I can't be his twin brother. Yeah. You know, but if we're working on a passion project, I'm pulling him in on it, it gets a little spicy if I can see it going that way. But I think I've gotten, like, I never want a day to go by where we don't talk anymore

because you don't know what's going to happen. And I look at how dumb that, that's just, like, it's just dumb. Especially for him being like, it's the same music. It's the same this. We love everything the same. And that's what's actually bad about us drinking together. Because when we get drunk together, it's this. And it's like me and him at a jukebox listening to like you two and campor Vain Bantilvin.

And then everyone's like, what's up with these dudes? You know, but it's like we walk in like crazy. And especially the music. I love that. That really is like such a common bond for us still. I mean, skating is always going to be there. But it's honestly like, let's go to this show. Like us at a sunny day real estate.

state show is just like messy. I'm always freaked out by twins who aren't close. Right. It's like how. What fuck you got a built-in best friend. I think what I learned and why we fought so much, growing up, we didn't get a lot of cheerleading. Right. No. Not a lot of pat up pass on the back. No. And we both, if you want me and Benj to work hard, give us a pat on the back. Right, right, right. Tell us good job. Yeah. That is gold. Yeah. My wife gets it because that's, all she has to say is good job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll go do all the rest of it.

Yeah, no, it's something I think like a single, well, that's what I was going to get at. It's like the single mom, she didn't have a lot of time to say that. You really have it in her. The Mexican restaurant, no one was saying that. No. And even coming out here. And I remember him talking about some bosses that he was like, they never really give us like, good job. Yeah, or credit.

And I was like, hey, good job, you did that. I don't even do that to him enough. Well, that's what I learned from each other working together. Yeah. And being in the band and then we have all these businesses. And now we're amazing partners. Yeah. But we learned that we needed that.

Yeah. And then we started doing that. Yeah. Started saying, hey, good job or thank you. Yeah. Hey, man. Thank you. I know.

Thank you. And we're still, like, he just laid out this record. I'm like, damn, I don't think I ever really was like, I already told him it looks dope. But I, like, need to go back and be like, everybody was happy. It's all turned in. Good job. Good job.

Or just. Every now and then I'll say to my brother, thank you. We assume that that thank you is coming by us, always asking to work together. Yeah. And I think we just get too lazy to be like. And if he said, hey, like if my brother said to me, hey, it really hurt my feelings that you didn't say good job.

I'd go, oh my God, dude. I thought you already knew. Yeah. I'm sorry, you did do a good job. Yeah. But like we were raised in these situations where life is hard and the through line was I'll give you something to cry about. Yeah.

I was like, that's what we all heard as kids like I'll give you something to cry about but if you're hurt and you're crying yeah that's a real thing like to stop and say hey I understand you're upset and validate it you'd probably stop crying yeah but that's what I learned in therapy was with my brother was like oh we just need to one like express when we need something yes hey I need your support that's it's talking to and not being talked at you know like we therapy is so basic. I remember because I was married and I went through divorce and it was that.

I was like, oh, therapist is for like white people. Like, I don't need that. And I went and she told me I had grown a lot. And I remember hearing that and going through some time and then being like, I need a therapist just like an oil change. Yeah. And I had my therapist, Joel. And it was great.

Like sometimes I would talk to them like, once every six months. Sometimes I would be like, I'm going through something. I need you. Like, it was unfortunate he passed away, which was something no one prepares us for.

Yeah. It's like a crazy, like, curfier enthusiasm moment where I'm like, no one talks about if your therapist passes. Yeah. And it was a really trippy thing.

Yeah, they become a really important source of something for you. Yeah. And I felt like definitely weird. Like, it's selfish. Yeah.

But you felt, a little abandoned in this weird way, but, you know, life goes on. But therapy for me has always been a really special thing. But I also think going back to the twin thing that's a little different, like you and him built like this band, right? Yeah. Me and Aco have built a career, but it's always been, are you a TBA? Like, are you, you know? And like, that gets a, like, I know he's a dick. Like, I watch him be like, no, it's not me. And he's like, dude, just be chill. Yeah. But for him, that's a dynamic that, you know, I always go, oh, okay, like, I am probably a little annoying at times just by being that dude that's always kind of doing stuff. Yeah. Josh just had to deal with

his whole life. Yeah. Exactly. That's 20 years. Like, yeah. Because we kind of look, we all look you look totally alone. The third twin. Yeah. And people are like, oh, you're one of the good Charlotte guys. I'm not, I'm not. I'm in their brother. Yeah. Like having that conversation the 50th time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By then you're like, man, fuck that. Yeah. Fuck you guys. For the years, I've become friends with Joe Jonas and just seeing the dynamic with him and Frank, you know, the fourth brother. He was on the show. Oh, Frank did it?

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I got to watch that. I really like him. I love that, that whole family. Because you see the brother dynamic and how much they love each other, you're like, this is just the, this just crushes my heart every time. Well, you share, the brother dynamic is you share this space together, but then you go out into the world

than you're your own man. And you want to be your own man and you want to build your own life. And all those dudes really did that too as well. You know, that's how I got close with Joe was helping. He had me creative directing for DNCE. And I brought Occo in, you know. And that's one of those things where you see that.

And I think that's what's great working with your brother, whether it's your twin or not. It's a very special thing because when you see other twins or siblings that don't, and they can't talk to you. They don't talk every day and they don't share the successes.

Like, my brother just hired me for this, this Vand's event that was downtown where they built these big obstacles and I shot a photo that people were freaking out about and it's like, did you shoot Idris?

I haven't shot Idris. I love Idris. I just is awesome. We follow each other. Dude, he's awesome. I need to tap into that. He is, he's great. He is, because he did a Vance photo.

So I was like, I wonder. Yeah, my brother, My brother creative directed that. Dude, I-Jyris. And that made me love Vans. Yeah. Because Idris is a real one. Yeah.

He's an amazing artist. No, my brother is really good. Like, he had Salem play, which Salem hasn't played her since 2011. You know, so in Paris, Texas. And Paris, Texas has some stuff they did with Vans. I thought that was so cool. And they let him do a photo where he didn't show his face. Yeah.

No, my brother, I'm excited for the new stuff with Vans. It's cool. And to bring, especially a lot of music and all. art into that space. It's already great with skating, but, you know, I already have a long list of some cool people that I'm like, this is, if I'm going to do any project, what vans, I want it to be just like he's been doing. Like, he had King Cruel play last summer, you know, and I think that's just great to, he's really good at picking. That, what I believe, give the brands back to the artist and you will be fine.

Because the artist that really fuck with you will do it. You don't even have to worry about like just find the real artists and give the, give them the freedom to play in the space. 100%. Like let I just take the photo with his shirt over his head. Yeah. That's going to be cool.

Trust me. Yeah. And like for you to even bring that up is great. And that's, you know, I think there's, you know, the footwear and all that stuff, there's a lot of, and just branding. Not even footwear, just branding. There's a lot. of competition. And you've got the bigs that are really doing it, you know, your Nike and Adidas. And, you know, I think the coolest thing with vans is culturally, you're the first skate shoe.

Yep. Like, that is such a fun area to play in. And you're always going to be in such a good space leaning in. Heritage, Thrasher magazine. Yeah. I competed with that logo for so many years or 20 plus years of my career. I work for Thrasher now, it felt so good to be like, let me put that shirt on like I was a little kid because sometimes when your heritage is so strong, I think that's the same with music. Like when you see SST or Discord, like Verve, impulse, like, blue note, like, it's crazy to think about that heritage. Like, and it takes a long time to build that. Yeah. It's great. Atiba. Thanks, dude. Yeah. So great to have you. Yeah.

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