Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Bea Miller

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Bea Miller. Since her emergence in 2014, Miller has created frank pop-rock songs that sound massive. It makes total sense when you consider her influences, as she grew up exposed to hundreds of records from her mother, a former vinyl DJ, including the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Alanis Morissette. Then when she was 12, she experienced a life-altering Paramore concert. Watching Hayley Williams onstage “felt transcendent,” and she wanted to be able to do the same one day — even bringing it full circle by playing their 2013 hit “Ain’t It Fun” in her live sets. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to singer-songwriter, B. Miller. Let's go. I'm really glad you're here. I'm really glad I'm here. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Where do you want to start? Do you want to start go back or start where we are now? I mean, do we could go back? I haven't seen you for, what, like 10 years? Easily at least 10 years. I think I maybe even more. I just turned 25 and I feel like I was maybe. 14 or 15.

Yep. And yeah, you wrote at the time my favorite song that I had ever recorded because here's the thing. I was very angsty. You were a very angry. I was very angry kid. I was so fucking mad. But like in the best way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I was very nice, but I was super pissed the world.

You were pissed off. You know, I cut all my hair off and I dyed it bright blue and I wore my fucking. fucking fishnet stockings and my studded boots and my banties and I thought I was so edgy and different and whatever. And my label at the time wanted me to, you know, be a pop star as they do. And you were kind of wrestling with that. Yes. And I pushed against that so hard. Honestly, I think looking back, it's, I feel like it was more out of spite of being like, well, I just don't want to be what you want me to be. I feel like it was more of that and less of like, oh, I actually don't like making pop music because I think pop music is good. It's fun. Yeah.

There's all kinds of pop music. But the idea of a pop star at the time when you're 15 is not. And I was. And you were not that. I did not want to do that at that time. Oh no. I remember when we met what label were you at? Oh, I was at Hollywood Records. Anyway, someone was like, were you guys right? Yeah. I don't know. I think you guys wrote that song. I think we tried to write. My memory is so shit. But I think that we tried to write, but you guys ended up writing a song. We have this song, Rich Kids. And at the time, that was like the most exciting song ever.

You were like, yeah. I was like, fuck, yeah. I was like, let's go. Because I was just recording all these like, la la la, I love you, he, he kind of song from my own perspective. Yeah, yeah. And so then to be like, fucking hate rich kids.

I grew up poor. like, ooh, you guys suck and I'm pissed about it really felt very good to me. I actually did it on my last tour, my most recent tour. Oh, you did? As my little surprise song because I actually have a fan who at every single one of my shows, either she's there or she sends somebody she knows who's going to go to the show there with a sign that says play rich kids. And it kind of became this ongoing joke for many, many years because obviously that song is like 10 or 11 years old now. And it really probably doesn't capture, like, as an artist, where you're at now. No, definitely not.

But it's a sweet. I did it on the tour for that fan because she was just. It's a sweet moment. Yeah. Loved it. Like you were really that kid. When we met you, we were like, oh, this girl, she's pissed in the best way. Like you were, you were very nice.

You left such an impression, hence you're here today. Yeah. So there's something to be said for that, right? Right. to have such an impression on me and Benj and everyone around. So we've always all kind of just rooted for you because you're a good person. Thanks. And I can imagine coming into music at such a young age in that awkward position of fighting

against everything because you don't want to lose the opportunity. Right. So you want to make everyone happy. But you're also just trying to figure out who you are, period. Right. And you're trying to make music that you like. And then you're also listening to all these people who are supposedly experts on what they like. The other of you fucking know what they like.

They like whatever the top 20 songs are at the time. Right. Right. That's generally the conversation is something like this song. And it's like the number one song. Of course you want a song. Yeah. So you're saying you want a number one song.

I don't know how to give you a number one song. But a good song is different. Yeah. And so when you're 15, you can't articulate that. to the adults. And so, of course, you're pissed off. And you had to just grow up quick. And, like, so I always kind of, you know, every now and then you'll see a kid come in and

you'll be like, oh, man, I hope you're going to be okay. And then every now and then you'll meet a kid and you're like, you're a fucking fighter, you're special. I don't know what you're going to do. I can't guarantee you anything because that's life. But I know you're going to do some stuff because you have that, that spirit. And you were one of those kids that were just like, she's going to watch out for her. That's for sure.

Yeah, watch out for her. God, man. And so how's it been? You know, everything obviously has its ups and downs. I think also because I started so young, I'm still so young now. Yeah. But I've already like gone through a phase of being like, I hate this. I have no inspiration anymore.

And, you know, that happened to me when I was, I don't know, 21 or 22. And that's, I feel like a lot of people are just starting. out, you know, really getting off the ground in any career at that point in time. And I was already so tired. And I just, I was like watching all of my friends graduating college and just starting in their career journeys and figuring out what they want to do with their lives. And I just kind of had a bit of a, it was just difficult for me because I was like, well, I've already known what I've, what I was going to do probably for the rest of my life for so many years. And everyone else is just starting to kind of become their own adult person. And that made me feel

definitely really lost and confused and just kind of like just kind of took away my real love and passion for what I do. So that was kind of a tough time. And I would say that lasted a couple years. And then I actually finally got out of my label deal that I was in for my entire career up until that point. That's a good thing. A year and a half for two years ago. I finally got out of that and I think that really pulled me out of my, you know, kind of exhaustion with making music. Because I just, you know, I was, I was making music that I liked but didn't love or I did love it, but it felt it felt like we were pushing it as one thing and it wasn't actually how I saw it and I couldn't make the visual art that I thought, you know, there's all kinds

of stuff like that. So I was really at kind of a low point. And then I got out of that deal and now I'm an independent artist. And so last year, I spent the whole year kind of just doing, you know, making the music I've always wanted to make. And it's definitely a little bit more on like the alternative side than anything that I was able to do with the label. But I fucking loved it. It was so fun. So I'm feeling refreshed. I'm feeling, you know, like that passion is back. Wouldn't you say that being an independent artist, you can celebrate more, like there's more wins. you see things more like you see more wins everything's a win when you release a song it's a win when people like it it's a win when you sell out of show it's a win and everything feels a little bit

more i don't know it's like you can feel it a little bit more because i feel like the experience you just described there is something like a cycle of kind of like what's the point yeah that you get kind of stuck in yeah and then you get a little turned around or a little were lost in like, wait, what's the point? What am I even supposed to like be excited about? If the metric is I need a top 10 song to say that I won, okay, I don't even know how I get that. Yeah. And then now, wait, now I got to think about what kind of song I need to record because you're telling me you need this kind of thing. And I'm trying to give you that. And I'm also trying to

express myself in my art. And I'm trying to make everyone happy. And then, then you kind of get out of that cycle of kind of like hopeless wandering and you get into like independence which is who am I what I want to say okay I'm going to make this record okay I'm going to put it out and there's less of a yeah I mean it is it's definitely like a great feeling to be independent I do find myself a lot of times um still stuck I just feel like that what you were just describing about like oh like how can it be like a top you know 20 fucking whatever and let's make this song because it sounds like this song that's doing really well on these platforms and whatever. I feel like because that was so kind of pounded into me for most of my career and,

you know, when I was so young, I find that even now, I sometimes still like am very hard on myself because of that. Because being independent is very different than being with a label and mostly all the best ways. But it's like, yeah, you celebrate every single thing as a bigger win, but it also, it feels like, oh, but there's only me to blame if there's not a win, you know? And it's like, it's difficult for me to think, okay, well, for an independent artist and for someone who kind of randomly switched up the style of music that she is making and, you know, all these other things,

like I think that that performed really well and I'm really happy with it and it's a win because I did it myself and I made it sound exactly the way I wanted to sound. Sometimes it's difficult for me to separate that from, but like, look at the success of these songs that I, had with this label that they pushed that were very much like within what was working at the time. And it is weird when you experience like, you know, relatively significant success when you're like 19. Mm-hmm. And then what? Like, it just is so crazy.

And I am so much happier now than I was then. Right. But sometimes it is kind of hard for me to separate, you know, what actually is important. even though I know that I know what's important, sometimes I get hard on myself if like, you know, I don't have like a hit, even though that's not really what I'm writing. It's not the shit that I'm writing. It's not the shit that I like. But it's just like because I was with a label for so long that was looking for that all the time,

sometimes I forget that I don't have to operate that way and be so hard on myself. Yeah. I think it's a good thing to look at. Yeah. Because I think also no one talks to us about what a down cycle is. anyone that has talent works hard puts their mind to it and has success we we get that first to that first peak and and then sometimes we can go to another peak from there right wherever our highest peak is in that up cycle no one talks to us about what the growth what what growth actually

is right so growth is expansion and then there's the outgoing and then there's incoming and then there's outgoing. Yeah. So we go out, we build, usually takes several years in the beginning of an artist's career, and then we get to our peak. And then there's a lot of incoming from that. Lots of opportunity and attention that we didn't have and awareness in the market and all kinds of things that we don't really, no one's sitting down and analyzing our business like it was a startup. They're basically saying it was a magic trick or it was the stars aligning. And that's not how it works. Yeah. So it's marketing and promotion and you put a product out, you market it. then customers come, fans, right?

People would hate to hear. People would hate to hear me talk about it this way. But if we're just, but I'm just as an exercise in like actually analyzing like what we did. So we do that. There's expansion. And then from that comes incoming. And then we're trying to decide what are we going to do, right? And continue the momentum that we built.

But with every, just like if you watch any stock, it goes up it goes down it goes up a little higher it goes down sometimes a little lower right not performing some stuff went this way or that way we look at that we adjust it it starts to go back up goes up to another point that's like time and growth so you look at a growth chart and you kind of measure and then you watch the game tape and you go okay that strategy worked that works for me that didn't work I should cut that out I shouldn't be selling that I should just be selling this I should do this I should do that So no one talks to us about that. And then no one talks to us about how do we get the most out of a down cycle?

Right. Rest, you know, meditation of like what's my next thing, right? Going back to the studio. Also living enough life that you have something to fucking talk about in your lyrics. Exactly. Living some life, going back to the shop, working with no expectation that I'm going to accomplish something that's ready to go. But sometimes I do.

Sometimes I go in and I stumble, you know, being creative and I find the song. But like no one talks about the down cycle. Like it's a, we all talk about it like it's a bad thing. But if their first connection on your brand was a positive experience, likely you'll hold that space. And then you can go back to the drawing board and go, okay, what's my next thing? What's my, what's, you know those movie, those movie directors that take 10 years between films? Oh, yeah. But they crush it every time.

Because they have confidence in that space. Yeah. And that's what like, allow themselves to ruminate. That's what we need. Yeah. To like get confidence in in the quiet space. Yeah. When no one's looking at us and they may not care about us right now.

That's essentially what I did for the last, you know, two years. I got out of the label deal and I went from working constantly nonstop every single day, essentially every day of the week to just kind of sitting around a lot of the time. I would do very, I used to when I was with the label, I used to do a different. session with a different producer and a different writer almost every day of the week. And that's exhausting because then you got to go in and meet new people, which already is tiring enough every single day, but also tell those people something very personal about yourself so that you can actually write something that is true to you or interesting or just have something to kind

of build off of. So I went from doing that every day or touring or performing whatever it is that I was doing to just kind of spending some time with myself. I call her InsideB. because she was inside. I didn't go anywhere. And this was, you know, this was even after like all the COVID shit. Like we could be out doing stuff. And I was like, no, I feel like I just kind of need to sit here and figure out.

After the what shit? The COVID shit. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't even like I was forced to be inside. I was like, no, no, I'm staying inside. And I am going to like reflect and figure out exactly. Because also I was like, okay, now I'm independent.

What exactly do I want my first message to be as an independent artist who can say kind of, you know, whatever I want, musically. And so I spent some time thinking about that. And then I found one producer and one writer that I felt like could help me to build that vision and spread that specific message. And I didn't really work with anybody else. And I kind of said no a lot and spent a lot of time relaxing. How did you feel about the product that or the end result of that? I feel amazing about it. It's my favorite stuff I've ever written. But, you know, it wasn't as well received is the stuff that I've done in the past, which is fine. And that's kind of what I'm saying I've been kind of wrestling with. But this year, I feel that outside me has returned. And I've

been going back and doing a lot of the things that I did, you know, when I was younger that I was so angry about doing, like going to these, you know, important dinners and, you know, events and, you know, whatever, all the Grammy week, like, parties, whatever that I used to absolutely hate and kind of became very, very much a cynic of all that stuff. And I was like, it doesn't actually help and it doesn't actually do anything. But I went and I kind of like rekindled. I've been going out and rekindling relationships that I have with writers from years ago when I was too spiteful to like actually appreciate how talented they were. I was just, well, this isn't the kind of stuff I want to make. So, you know, and I've been kind of going back and rebuilding relationships with those people

and trying to meet new people who might challenge me more creatively because I did what I wanted to do last year. I put out five of my favorite songs I've ever made. They're exactly what I want. But now I'm ready to kind of marry that to what people have come to want from me. Right. So to me, that's like putting out the five songs you love is the like accomplishment. Right. And I think you got to like hold it.

Yeah. Because I think it's a big accomplishment. And then I think now what's interesting is going back to some of the older ideas, but with a new perspective of like who you are, what you've been through. Also, you've got to remember, I think, you're only 25. You have a long career ahead of you. How old were you and you guys started the band? I was 16.

Wow. And you just started like at home? Started in our bedroom. In our bedroom. In our bedroom. In our bedroom. Yeah, me and my brother. Well, my parents, you know, at the time, the family,

had just completely fallen apart. So we were, you know, we were, we were going through a lot. And I think that was the thing we were able, in a lot of ways I say it always like it saved me. But it gave me something to focus on. I escaped the troubles of, you know, the hard, hard part of life. And it gave me this like hope. I became obsessed with it right away. Yeah. I was like, we're going to make it. We're going to do it. And then I was obsessed with that. And I wasn't dealing with or thinking about all the terrible. things that had happened. So I think in a lot of ways, it played so many different roles in my life.

And in the end, it gave me a life and it gave me a career. And that sounds a bit more storybook magical than the actual career, which is just work, showing up and trying things and, you know, all the songwriting sessions and all the things from 16 to 40, I'll be 45 in March, almost 30 years of doing this. What I learned is exactly what you're doing. keep showing up, keep figuring it out, keep looking at it from this angle, look at it from that angle, and let go of the idea that anything is going to save us or change our life, but that we could grow and become more competent, become more resourceful, become more independent. You start to see a real path towards what real success is in my mind is a career of lots of different

kinds of moments that you could say are valuable. Some of them might be a song that did well, but the time in between figuring out you wanted to get off the label, getting off the label, putting out your five favorite songs, that might be the most important part of your career that serves you two or three years from now when you're having more success. And it'll be success that you can appreciate probably more than ever. And it'll hit a little deeper. and it'll also give you more opportunity to have more success, and you'll likely be more set up to continue and build like a sustainable process for yourself where you can have success and have a life.

Like to me, that's the goal, right? Is like, can I have success and have a life? Dude, when I see people like the Taylor Swift's of the world, I'm like, how the fuck do you live like that? It's insane. I mean, it's cool to watch. It's fun to watch. watch for sure, but it's incredible. It just blows my mind when people, I mean, I'm sure they've all got

their own, you know, interpersonal, like real deep lives. But I'm just like, I cannot imagine being on that scale. We could spend an hour or two, like, dissecting why I think Taylor has built such a, a huge successful brand. And we could track it, too. So it's grown over many, many years. Yeah. There are like these anomalies of, and not to say it's an anomaly because she did it on purpose. She didn't just happen. She worked really hard. But I always look for models that I like.

As I perceive it, I like how they roll. Yeah. And I like how they've been consistent. And I can see the ups and downs they've had. I think in life and for people listening that are trying to build their own lives, we only get to build our life. Yeah. And so what I learned in like probably around your age or maybe in the in my from 25 to 30, I learned that.

I learned like I can't look at him and want his life and his success. Because that's what I always did. It was a self-esteem thing. It was a bunch of things. Yeah. It was a lack of confidence. It was, I didn't have, I didn't believe that I was really doing it. Yeah.

You know, that it wasn't made. It's really hard to like look. at your accomplishments as they're happening and then even looking back and own them a little bit. Yeah. And actually be like, oh, I did that.

Sometimes I think about things that I accomplished when I was like 18 and I'm like who is that? I'll give everyone else. I don't even know who that is anymore. I feel like that's the same me that I am now. But it was you. Like actually physically. Like I'm like who was that person's a separate person from me.

It's really difficult. Well, because it kind of was. It kind of was, but it was you and you showed up for it. and it was the you inside of you that fought through it because some of it was good, some of it was bad. I'm sure you have a ton of experiences.

You could say you could put it in the bad category and you could put a bunch of the good category, right? So when we're not like fully conscious and in our body and like living our real life because it's all a dream and so it's not real and someone's giving it to us, we're not really earning it, then it's harder to keep because we're actually. saying it was given to us freely. It wasn't like we actually had to show up and build it every day. Yeah.

But you did. But like no one was at the time telling you like, oh, you're showing up every day like a job. Right. And you're putting another brick in the wall. Right. Instead, they're like going, if the stars line up and so-and-so waves their magic wand, then maybe it'll happen, kid. And you're like, that's not how it works.

That's not. That side of entertainment and music is the part that frustrates me. Yeah. Because there is something about what we've both done that's magical. Feels magical. I mean, some of the songs that people, like my A&R, my label hated the most, or maybe was like, I don't know if we should put this on the record or I don't know, blah, blah, that I push for, the ones that still are like some of my most successful songs at this day.

Well, that's because you're- They try to create this magic based on like the metrics of what exactly is working at, like, all the, you know, the people in suits who are sitting there looking at the charts and analyzing all the things and making comparisons to what you're doing. and they're like, that's not going to work. And I feel like when you believe in your own music and you're like, I know I know that this is good. Like I know that this is something that like people will receive well from me.

They just like can't always wrap their minds around that. Well, that's the part of being an artist that makes artists special because we have an idea that it's like a chef. I have an idea that I made this that tastes good to me. I think you're going to like it, right? That's the part that will never change, I think. The information that all those people gather can be helpful sometimes. but we just have to look at it like that.

So I tend to always say that now when I work with so many artists. I'm like, listen, if you like it, that's the gut check. Do you think it's cool? Do you like it? Number one, will you be proud if you put it out? Will you be excited? Put that one out. Yeah.

If it's the one that I convince you to do and you hate it, don't put that one out. Yeah. I've had moments where I was probably like a week or two, maybe a little bit more, a little bit less from releasing a song, like everything is scheduled, video was made. And I just had this, like, feeling in my chest just like, oh, it's not, it's not me. It's not what I want to say. Whether or not it's going to be a quote unquote hit or going to be popular or whatever, it's just there's something, and I've like called it off and made a lot of people very angry, but sometimes things that everyone tells you are like going to be the thing, just feel like so

wrong. It's real. And I've made so many people mad. That little, that little angsty like 14, is still in there somewhere sometimes and she's like, sorry, we're not doing that. It's not, it doesn't feel sometimes things just don't rest right, like in my soul or something. Yeah, I think, though, that that angsty 14 year old is the one you got to keep and like nurture and like keep there. Because I think that in a lot of ways you came into this like industry and this business and this thing we do with a lot of hope. Because we feel like it's possible. And then we get burned along the way.

And that's just the nature of life, right? Whether it's the music business or it's just growing up. We have to really try and keep that little hopeful, excited kid who's also really hurt. His feelings are really hurt because of the people, right? And we got to try and help them heal from that and still be like the excited, hopeful person. That's the work I have to do all the time. Yeah. I got to go back to my younger self and bring them along because I'll talk myself out

of things from past trauma. Yeah. Because I don't want to experience it again. But the reality of my life now at my age and my experience is I'm going to see that a mile away. It also hurts less when someone takes it. If someone takes advantage of me now, I'm like, oh, you just saw yourself out. Yeah.

You just, you just, you did what you had to do. You missed the whole point. Whatever. The point of knowing me is, is my, is I'm a good friend. And I'm a resourceful guy. And I love to help people solve problems. If you miss the point, if you, if, if you cash out and you grab what you can get and you, you know, you're seeing yourself out, which is, you're doing me a favor. Yeah.

And that's how I feel now if someone takes it, which is very, very. few and far between it this age. Yeah. But, uh, because you can usually see them a mile away, like people like that you likely aren't even letting in the room anyways. But every now and then you'll be like, oh, that was disappointing. Yeah. But that's about it.

Yeah. I mean, obviously the longer you put up with anything, the less it actually bothers you. It's like at this point, at this one, at this one, a lot of times I feel like I expect that kind of behavior from certain kinds of people like you're saying it's like you see it coming a mile away and you're kind of like, whatever. Like if you're going to try to take advantage of what's in front of you or, you're going to try to convince me that something is cool that isn't cool or you're going to tell me that what I'm doing isn't, you know, great or whatever it is, that's fine.

Yeah. That's fine. I've heard that so many times and I'm still here and I'm still making music and stuff still moving forward and you're going to keep doing that kind of shit to other people and to me and doesn't matter as much anymore. Yeah. And those people. I was so sensitive.

I was so sensitive. Anytime anybody didn't like something I was doing or said something that bothered me, I mean, I was just angry. all the time. But that's okay. So sensitive. But that's also okay. That's, I think that's a, that's a, that's the age.

But I also think that like, you always took this seriously and you always took what you're doing seriously. And you should. I mean, I started out to try to like keep a roof over my family's head. I feel like that really like. It's a lot of pressure. Really. Yeah.

And I feel like with that kind of motivation, it's like it's literally do or die. But yes, I also think that's part of the reason why when I was like 21, I was like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, this is, I didn't go to high school. I didn't go to college. Like, this is all I've got. And is this actually, you know, I had like a crisis about it. Like, is this actually something I'm good at and something that like brings, like, I'm

actually bringing value. I'm actually like bringing something new or interesting or like special to specific people to the table? Or is it just something that I started doing and I kind of got, it is like that mix of like luck and magic, but also actually hard work? Was it just like kind of that and that? helped save me from this terrible situation, but now what? Or is it like I actually was meant to do this and it just kind of worked out that way?

I definitely had like, because you know, I started out to basically just make money to keep my family, like, you know, food on the table. And then eventually I was like, do I actually even, like, is this actually what I meant to do or to just work out as like the thing that kind of was able to help me save myself and them? And that was like a very crazy time. Now I've obviously like, you know, that was just a weird crisis. We all have them and we come up with things that actually are just anxiety and not real. And then you like, I don't know, play a show and you see how much it means to people that you've written these songs that they connect with.

And you're like, oh, right, okay. Like if I wasn't good at least a little bit at what I'm doing or wasn't supposed to be doing this, like these people wouldn't be here. They wouldn't care. Yeah. I feel like I have a similar, very similar. background. And when I started, I really needed it because I had no money. And we were digging ourselves out of a hole.

So I think the guy who needs the opportunity the most is likely going to win the opportunity. If you really like zoomed out and you were like, okay, when you got signed, there was likely 20 other people or 100 other people or 1,000 other people in the same place. that we're all trying to get signed. They were all raising their hand. Give me the check. I'll deliver, right? Give me a chance.

Put me in, right? And then, so there's one. I'm going to fight for that opportunity. I'm going to do a little bit more to get. So I can't quite explain it, but it's like I'm going to jump at the chance to do the showcase or to go meet the guy or to go do the thing.

I'm not going to ask questions. Yeah. It's going to go. Yeah. And even if that guy maybe is more, quote unquote talented or whatever like he's not as hungry so whatever doesn't matter whatever he's he could have he could have talked five minutes too much too much today and our guy about a bunch of shit that doesn't matter yeah because he was thinking about his art or whatever and you were like

i'll do it yeah here should put me in yeah all right where do i sign up yeah right so in some ways there's that and you could look at any opportunity if it's music or a job so anyone out there listening that there is something about need that is really valuable where it can hurt you is when you get into the opportunity and then you have to make sense of the new reality you're in because you have the opportunity now so that's your reality so now i got to reestablish my baseline and then make decisions based out of my relationship to this opportunity and now I want to crush it. I still need it.

Right. And as you go along the way, you have to keep establishing your floor. Right. Which I didn't do for a very long time. So I was making decisions that weren't all the way right sometimes because I still felt deep need. Even though I had the money. As I got down the road, I had more. And I did it.

So that's important to look at sometimes as you grow. That being said, if you didn't have the talent and the smarts, you wouldn't have succeeded in the opportunity. Right, I think that's the magic is that when it all kind of comes together. Because I think all the time about like how many people do experience, you know, like my parents, we didn't have a lot of money. We were losing our house. There was just like a lot of shit hitting the fan at the same.

They were like separate. There was just like a lot going on. But that happens to a lot of people, unfortunately. That's real. And sometimes I think, you know, what would have become of me if I didn't just happen to know how to sing? like if I didn't happen to have that talent. I think that's, I mean, I don't let myself get too deep down.

I'm not whole because then I will go very, to a very dark place and be like, shit, like where would I be today? But it does make me sometimes also feel, though, like, God, like, how is that even fair? Because, of course, like I did put in the work. But again, there are plenty of people who are in that scenario who don't sing or don't have, you know. But then I feel like they have something else that they're good at. Everyone obviously does.

But it's just like, wow, like how convenient. that everything worked out and then I even had the talent to like, yeah, get myself to a place where things could work out. It's very weird. Yeah, well, so,

it feels like, kiss me or something. Well, even though you like work hard at shit, sometimes it just feels like, but a little bit of stuff locked into place. Yeah, so there's like a serendipity,

right? And there's, uh, there's, um, I think like a, I think what the like transcendent part of life is is that. It's this,

what feels serendipitous is like that feeling of, of, of, it could have gone, a lot of different ways. The truth of the matter is that I think, right, is I believe that most people that go down the path, the road less traveled, right? We're entrepreneurial, so we're creative in our, you could say entrepreneurial is a bunch of things, creative and driven to curious about things, creative, resourceful. So there's a bunch of qualities you likely have.

I think you have to have if you're sitting where you're sitting, right? You certainly wouldn't be sitting in this chair talking to me if you hadn't accomplished what you've accomplished, just the way it is. Yeah. Right. So to do that, you have to have a certain drive to get the opportunity. You did that somehow. It didn't just fall in your lap.

You searched for it. You didn't not search for it. Yeah. No one came to your house and opened your door. And it was like, hey, what a record deal? You were looking for it. You found it. You pursued it.

So there's an entrepreneurial drive that's good. And like a touch of delusion almost. Yeah, sort of. I started out going on one of those like reality singing shows. And I had never like sung in any like public place in my life. And I was like five million dollar prize. I got that.

I'm buying my parents house back. So that's important. Like what kind of psychotic thinking is that? It's psychotic. You need that. You need a touch of like believing in things that are just like the absolute. one point zero zero one percent odds yeah so it's not but to me that's actually not psychotic that is that's a driven that's a person who's creative driven and competent and they go huh i think i could do that

they're all doing it and i i've yet to see you know 90 percent of them i'm not that impressed with right so you measured it and then you started pursuing it that to me is actually the the way it worked the way it happened. Yeah. The magic part is that you shot the ball and it went in the hoop and it felt magical because you were like, whoa, I didn't actually know that I could do that. So you discovered the talent that you thought you had. And then you shot the ball.

It went in the hoop and you went, whoa, it was kind of a swish. Yeah. I wonder if I could do that again. And you did it again. And then the road unfolds as we go forward. But it doesn't unfold if we don't go forward. Right. Where a lot of people get stuck is they won't let themselves go forward.

Right. I feel like if I hadn't had like the need to take that job. The need drove you. I don't know if I ever would have. I probably would have just gone to high school, gone to college, been doing some kind of job that I have no passion for. Right. Maybe.

I mean, who knows, obviously. But I feel like it is hard. It's difficult to take that shot if you don't have like an absolute like do or die need sometimes because it's scary. And that is why I go, thank you. Yeah. Poverty. Yeah.

You gave me. I mean, that's why I was so angry when I met you. I was so close to that having just happened to me that I felt like I was still in it. You weren't even out of it. I was fresh out of it. Barely not even really out of it. You didn't even know how to act. Yeah.

I was just barely out. And I was just still so angry that, you know, I was like, oh, we, you know, this poverty and this. But that's probably why we. So awful. And I hadn't even really looked around and realized, but I'm not in that anymore. I already got myself out of it. I was still just angry that I was ever in it in the first place. And now I'm like.

What would have happened if I, you know, like grew up in the house of the picket fence and everything worked out perfectly fine? I don't know. So now I'm not angry anymore about that. I just was too close to it, you know, when I was younger to kind of recognize that. Yeah, but you couldn't have known. Yeah, right. You couldn't have known because you're here now. You didn't know you'd be here now.

Yeah. Well, a question I always ask people is if you're conflicted about who you are. right I'm not saying you are yeah um well who else do you want to be who do you really want to be pick them you want to be Taylor I love Taylor I'm a swifty big like big time our whole house love Taylor I don't know if I want to be here I don't know if I'm built for that so do I want to be Drake I don't know looks like he's having fun but I don't know what his life is I'm just saying like like we don't know I'm just saying I'm just saying I think we should want to try and be the best version of ourselves as hippie-dippy

as that sounds. We don't get to be anything else anyways. And we live in a world where everything's marketed to us as like a bit, like this will make us happy or this will be better or this is what you need. You need this. This is what success looks like. And then you kind of like wash all that away. And then you go, is it more?

I don't know. Is success... That's what success looks like for that person. Maybe, yeah. Like, they seem like they're having a good time. So I'm not even hating on them. But I don't know if that's me. Yeah.

And then I'm like, is success for me like going to the coffee shop and having like an hour long quiet moment after I dropped my kid off and feeling happy about my life? Yeah. And then going to work and working all day and being happy with what I'm working on, even with the problem, solving. because working with artists, it's full of anxiety because they're at the beginning of their journeys and they're still at the place where they don't know if it's going to work out. And I'm saying, look, I think it's working out.

Look, there's proof. Right. You never know when you're in it. It just feels like. Yeah. So here's how we measure and that's all going up. It looks like it's working to me. But if you're not happy, that's something to look at.

And then another thing for music and arts, if you don't die to do it, if you don't need to do it, then I don't know if you should do it because it's not a life that's for everyone. It's not like it's just this like straight path forward where you just know how it's going to work. No, you never know how it's going to work. But if you can't be happy now, I don't know if you can be happy. Right. I would work on happy first. Right.

I would go to therapy. I would figure out what it is about your life that you hate so much that you can't be happy before you take another step forward in your art. Because if you get success and you haven't figured out happy in your life, that is not going to make you happy. Right. So maybe my down cycle when I was miserable because I thought, it's over. It wasn't over. It was streaming had happened.

It must happen to everyone. I feel like it's got to. Absolutely. Culture shifts. Things cycle. Things come in. in fashion, they go out, they come back in. So work on the art, work on the craftsmanship of it, work on what makes you feel good. And like, I promise you, if you stay in it and you keep going

forward and you're being true to yourself, you will build a career that's really interesting. So that's what I've discovered at this age is the last 10 years I spent doing things I thought was interesting and have had more success in a different way, may not be out in front of everybody. Yeah. But it's been successful. And now I don't necessarily need the success that everyone can see. Right. And I feel pretty good about it.

Right. I mean, I do get really, I feel like it's, it's tough not to be hard on yourself if you don't have the kind of success that everyone can see. But then I like really look inside of myself and I'm like, what do I actually want? Like, I don't actually want like that person's career. Like you were saying, like, I don't actually want to be that. maybe I'm just like, oh, is that what success to other people looks like? Like, does everyone think like, oh, in order to be successful, you have to be doing exactly this. We all have that, though.

We all have that moment. But I'm like, to me, then I actually like take a second and think about it. And I'm like, to me, success is just, I mean, originally what I set out to do was to have a roof over my head and like not have to worry about that. Well, you did that. And I did that. And so it's like, you know, success to me is like every day when I wake up in my house. and I feel safe and warm and like I'm going to go down in the fridge and make myself whatever the hell is in there and then hopefully go write a song that I actually really like.

But sometimes it's, you know, but like then I actually like it's, I feel like if you actually like you have to measure like the little small winds and like that to me is like it's actually kind of a big wind to be like, and now I don't have to worry about the shit that I had to worry about. It's a huge win. It's a huge win because when you get to be my age, you are going to look around and there are going to be people who still haven't figured it out. And then if you've figured it out, you're going to feel really, really grateful that

like you can be calm. Yeah. And we can still go out and try. We can go out and win. We can go out and lose. But if we go home and we're happy, there's something about that that allows you to actually build a sustainable life in this thing. Yeah.

And that's what I think has been the most important. important factor of me and my brother, who's my partner and everything, Benj is the best partner. But like we figured that out together. Luckily, we have each other. Right. And we encourage each other to like be happy and healthy and like grounded and sane. Like sanity is super valuable. But yeah, put that on a T-shirt.

Like sanity. Yeah. Like give me-salev. Give me sanity and some kind of sustainable happiness. Yeah. And I'll take that all day. over any amount of money. The kind of success, I think that's like real true success is doing something you care about.

Yeah. And then it growing. I will also say, though, when I hear you talk, because I still relate to it on so many levels, because we all feel that way. That's probably why we liked you so much when, you know, like, who's this kid? And then we related to, I think, your... The angsty, overall. Angry teen of it all.

Yeah. And like what you've been through coming from, you know, it's not like you have... like a parent that was like a person in the industry that was pulling favors and was like get my kid in there and right like that's okay too by the way certainly I would do that if you're good if you're good yeah and if you're willing to do the work and you're willing to go look there's only one path I think for real art to grow and build a brand and a legacy over time and I think it's time just doing the work overtime yeah so you can have an overnight success situation but like that kind of success is really fleeting and it doesn't it never gets roots you know but um

but everyone kind of gets in that moment those moments of like wait who am i and should i be wanting that and should i be doing that and what is success and how do i even feel about this i think it's also like just becoming harder like more difficult to gauge every day because i feel like obviously the progression of like tic-tok and things like that make it easier to have at least short-term success yeah it's like instant gratification. Yeah. But then, you know, it's like some people do something with that and some people don't. And I feel like gauging like what actually is success like right now is even like it's become

even more difficult for me. I'm like, oh, I don't have a song that, you know, people are clipping down to 10 seconds on TikTok and, you know, talking about on there. But I also, you know, have made music that I love and that clearly connects with some people. And, you know, there's that, you know, like there are certain, there are different elements to, but it is like really interesting to watch. Yeah. But what I'll say is, is that even in all that experience you've had, because we all

feel that way, from the outside, my perspective. And I talked to Bench, I told him you were coming on the show. I got to tell him. I said hi. Yeah, he said hi. We said, oh, she's doing great. It's so nice to see that you made it over to this side. My friends like make fun of me all the time.

You're like, you like, you just like sit around. You just like shit with the door open. Like, you're just hanging out. And you like have a lot of like glass half empty days. Like, like you've done so much. And you just seem like it's from the outside. But also, you've had these accomplishments and whatever. But and I'm like, I know I just sit in my house.

Like, what are you talking about? It's so. And they make fun of you. They're like, like wake up and smell the roses. Like look around and realize. Yeah. Like, but it's hard. It's, I feel like it's also.

I don't know if you've ever felt this. I feel like it's difficult to separate like you as a person in your day-to-day life inside of yourself in your own thoughts like just like with your legs walking around every day from it's like difficult to like associate that with like these artists that you are to people. Yeah, yeah. Even art of yourself. But like to you, you're like, oh, I'm just like I just like to sing and write songs and like I don't know.

At least I feel that way a lot of the time. And then to actually consider the fact that to other people on the outside, I'm not just like me, I'm like, B. Miller, the person who is this artist and it's just like very, it's, it's, I feel like it's just difficult for me to make that connection because I'm so in here all the time. I think that's just the tortured artist. Do you have stream of consciousness thoughts by the way? Yeah. Like you've got that on the voice all the time? Yeah. Did you hear reasonably about how like some people don't have that? Isn't that weird? A lot of people don't have that. But, but I didn't actually know that. I thought the same way that I, like in the same manner that I think. Like, what's,

the hell. I can't imagine like not having like a just a constant voice like in every moment of silence like having a conversation with myself. It must be nice. I wonder if they did a study on that. I bet people who don't have that are less mentally ill. No, I'm sure. No, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure of it. I mean, we're artists. So there's a neuroticism. Yeah. Right. And so it is different. Some people don't. Yeah. I think everyone has mental health that they have to look after. Right. And that's different for everyone. But there are. Certainly people who grew up in very secure, stable environments, and they have a much more, look, I don't know if that's good or bad because I think that my environment created this animal that I am

and that the things I'm neurotic about, some of, if I get it right, it's pointed out the right things and it's very useful. If I get it wrong, I pointed out the wrong things, it's very destructive. So I have to manage that by being aware of it. And that's the journey. It's like, I'm 45. It took me a long time. But now I have a good grasp on what that means. And that's like a practice, you know? So becoming aware of your own kind of neuroticism and neuroses and like, what makes

you anxious and when and being aware of it and then being able to manage that. And then sometimes anxiety is good. Before I'm going on stage or I'm going into something where I have to actually be precise and really get something right. I'm still going to anxious before you on stage. Does that ever go away? No, no. For me, it never goes away.

But I've learned how to ride it a little bit. Yeah, you like, I don't actually fall apart or something. I get up there. I do my job. And after like, you know, halfway through the first song, I'm like, oh, right. But for some reason, still before every show, I thought maybe eventually that would go away. I guess not. I'm just, and for some people, I feel like they never have it at all.

Well, they don't. People in my band, like, they're just like, whatever? Like, we're about to go out there. And I'm just like, what if, what if for some reason today after doing it? this exact set 1,000 times. Today is the day. Like, I can't do it, which obviously makes no sense. But I guess I always hope that that wouldn't pass forever.

Yeah, but it does immediately go away once you start. And you're like, right, I know what I'm doing. Yeah, but we got to like break it down. Everybody in the band isn't playing the same role. So if they, if they're not as precise that day, it's not as it doesn't affect the overall success as much as if you weren't. Yeah. It always scares me.

I'm like, we're all up here together, but like if I fuck up, it's going to be really clear. And then we also have to say, just like sports, we could all sit and watch the game and we could criticize or pick apart what the athletes did right or wrong. Right. Like it's so easy. I can't even catch a football. Let alone play the game. Or when we watch an award show and watch all the performances, we could pick apart what the artist did or right or wrong.

but it's actually such a, they're competing at such a high level and they're doing something with so much precision. It takes so much precision to do that well. So you've done it at the highest level. I've done it at the highest level, arguably, right? There's something about experience that is the best education you could get, but you do have to, Jedediah Jenkins is a friend of mine, he's a writer, and he said do the things that love the things that love you back.

Essentially, go down the road and you, it's not like you were met with more nose than yeses. It was validated and confirmed every step of the way as you went because people went, yes, I'll work with her. Yes, I'll sign her. Yes, she can come on tour. So you have to have talent and actually be the real thing to get that many yeses for that long. You wouldn't still be sitting here.

You'd be out. You'd be like, I tried that. It was a good five years, you know, and you'd probably come up with some excuse of why you don't want to do it anymore. But the truth is that you were met with more nos than likely yeses. Anyways, I think that to do any of this, we have to have talent, work ethic, and then we have to be some version of precise about how we do it. Yeah. Did you start the podcast to like give advice or like just talk about. like how to do what we do or just how to, I don't know, like make it through life with a smile

on your face, hopefully. I started this because I was, I've been having these conversations for 20 years. And I feel like there's a lot of value in them for like if not only if people who are your fans can hear you share like your perspective, not only can they feel closer to you. They can understand you more. they can draw on a lot of your experience in their own life and hopefully go forward with a little bit more of an understanding of like how to do it well. Yeah. And that to me what I, you know, the greater good of this, these conversations is that people listening can take something away

that'll help them go forward with more. Yeah. I think it's also interesting because obviously I feel like as a fan, as a consumer of music, you don't. ever know really what is actually going on. You see like this projected. I remember when I had a song that was doing decently enough for the first time when I was like 15 or 16, I had fans who I think that they like assumed

that I was rich and that I had already bought a home and I was so, and all this. And really I was still just like living with my mom who I didn't get along with at the time and like struggling and we still, or actually at that point, it was even before I was living with my uncle. I was living with my uncles at their house

because we couldn't even afford our own apartment because like, yeah, the song was doing fine, whatever, but the label's taking all the money and the money has to be spent on like maintaining that success and whatever. And I just feel like it's very, you know, you get... There's a perception. It was always very shocking to me when I was younger

that people would be like, oh, you must be so blah, blah, blah. And I feel like, what are you talking about? Because that is the way that it's presented to consumers and that's like the way that it seems from the outside when you don't actually do this and no. So I think that's also like, really interesting. Even as somebody, like I obviously make music for a living. That's what I do. I still find it really interesting to hear from people whose music I have always loved,

like what their personal experience has been. And it probably has been some version of the same. Yeah. You know, there's lots of nuances. Lots of details. Yeah, there's lots of details. But it's, it's a real, if you want to be in this a long time, it's never not work. You're always going to have work. And it's always going to feel a little foggy ahead of you. Doesn't matter who you are. Yeah. It's not easy for anyone. I just find it. Doesn't matter who you see. You could name anyone. And I could tell you like likely they're dealing with a bunch of other stuff, challenges of all kinds. And that's just I feel like when we make peace with that, we can actually go to work every day and be happy because we find joy in and actually just working. So what's next?

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Shopify. coms bar records. You know, I'm kind of figuring that out. I, Like I said, I spent the entire year last year making specifically music that I love that I've always wanted to make.

And I guess I was prepared for the fan base. I already had to not love it as much as I did. But I guess I was hoping that they would anyway. And I think some of them did. But I think to me, I think it's easier, like as an artist as yourself to be like, okay, well, it makes sense that I would make this kind of thing. And then I would also make this kind of thing because I'm inside of myself and I can tell that I like all of these things. and there's so many layers to like what I'm capable of and what I like to do and what I like to hear from myself.

And I forgot, like, I guess I forget sometimes that like, I'm being perceived by other people and it needs to be easy for them to like, that's her thing and like I get it and I can get on board with it. And so I made, you know, this more alternative kind of like aggressive, all this live drum, live guitar, I mean, lots of like guitars and base, whatever kind of shit. And I realize now that like that really was just for me. And I'm starting, I'm going to start trying to bring that, bring what I love about that in a less aggressive way back into what people expect from me and want for me.

Because yes, like you should make things that you love and believe in. But I think there's a way that I can do that that also is what people have grown to love from me. And like are the, you know, the kind of songs that made them my fans in the first place. I think I kind of betrayed that. And I needed it. I needed to do that for myself. But I think I'm going to, I've been, you know, just in the studio recently. I'm just trying to put together a project that I have to find that right sound.

And I'm just trying to, I want to make the people who got me this far happy while also like not wanting to, I don't know, pill off my skin every time I hear my own music. So there's got to be my middle ground there somewhere. So that's what I'm working on. I'm just, you know, I told you I'm outside B. So I'm making friends and making music and I will hopefully give the people what they want. I think if you like it, we'll like it. Yeah. I think I did too much of what specifically only I love last year.

That's okay. I think that, yeah, I needed it. And I'm really proud of that stuff. You got to have those records. I also do look back and I'm like, okay, I was just spiteful at the time when I was like 17. I was making good music. And I even wrote the music. I just was angry that I couldn't have.

you know, louder guitars, electric guitars on the song. And so then I was like, well, fuck this song and I hate it. And I hate this kind of music. And then I look back, I'm like, I love some of that stuff that I made back then. You know, I hate some of it for sure. But I do- Well, you all have that. Yeah.

I think I just needed the time to take away and be like, I can make whatever I want now. Fuck you. You know, let's rock and roll. But now, I realize that like as a fan of certain, you know, of artists like that I love, I might be disappointed if they stop making the kind of music that I love them for and go an entirely different direction, you know? Yeah, I think that there you're... It's hard to realize that when you're like an artist yourself and you just want to make what you want. Yeah, but I think you're on to something.

I think you had to take the step you took. And I think that there's likely some stuff in there you discovered that you're going to bring back to this other space. And I think that you may find like a lot of that's useful. Even though it may not have performed or whatever way you want or whatever, like we all have. Like we all have that. I don't even know how to measure that. Because I put stuff out that no one cares about that I love. Yeah.

And I don't even know what to make of it. Yeah. In fact, me and my brother made a record we love and it didn't, you know, we didn't feel like people appreciated it and we took it off streaming platforms. We haven't put it back on. We haven't put it back on in 10 years. And now I think about putting it on because I actually really appreciate that record. And I still love that record.

I'm like, no, I'm like, I want to know what that's like. I want to hear that. It's a cool. It's a cool record. I love that record. It's called, we did this little record, me and Benj, the Madden Brothers, greetings from California. I love that record. But I didn't feel like anyone appreciated it.

So I was like, you know what? Then I'm taking it away. Taking it away. Sorry. And now we talk about it. It's been 10 years. And I'm like, we should put that record back out. A little 10 year anniversary.

Yeah. A little like, fuck it. We don't. I actually think that a lot, we learned a lot on that record, just me and him. we just wanted to make something and we did it. And then I think that was the beginning of all the things we've done. For some reason, I feel like that record was so important for everything else I've done.

I'm feeling refreshed after I made that music that was just for me. And now I'm actually feeling more inspired to make stuff that like actually appeal to other people too and to myself. So I think you got to like give that record. It's due credit as you go here. Because I feel like there's something there that you. discovered and you're coming back to do something else fine but like I guarantee you you're doing you'll do this better because you did that so I think like I would leave room for that record in a very special way

to be important to you yeah because I think that that's how you get everywhere is by taking those steps that's just my thought I because I know that feeling you have exactly I just know it and 10 years later on the record that I felt similar about, I give that record a lot of credit for everything that I've done, including this show. You should put it back out. Yeah, we're thinking about it. I'll stream it. Yeah.

You'll be one of like. Yeah, you've got at least one person who's excited to listen to listen to it. They'll be like, you know, 10 people will stream it. My wife likes that record. I mean, then you got to, then you got to do it. The wife likes it. Come on. So, yeah.

So I think we got to give credit to our, it's like that old parable. I won't get into it. but it's like we don't know if it's good luck or bad luck yet. We just don't know yet. Yeah. We won't know until we get down the road if that was good. I thought my family's poverty, it was bad luck, but it turned out to be good luck for me. Yeah, like in the end.

Yeah, we can't judge, even though it was painful and it was hard. We can't judge each experience in the moment if it's good or bad. But again, like people listening, they may be going through something hard. Give some room that this might be a good thing. like let's just go through it first and get through it and make the most of it and then like on the other side of it let's make sense of it and then let's go down the road and and maybe it was really good luck yeah you know yeah I'm feeling like last year was good luck for this year I'm feeling good I'm feeling ready and you're here fucking throw spaghetti at walls and see what sticks yes I'm excited to do

it yeah and you're here which I'm happy about I'm so I was so happy when I when you guys reached out about this. I was like, fuck yeah. I've been so long. I'm really glad. Thanks for coming. Yeah, thanks for having. Awesome. Great. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support and we'll see you next time.