Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Bebe Rexha

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Bebe Rexha. Before she signed to Warner in 2013, Rexha was in a short-lived electropop band with Fall Out Boy’s Pete Wentz called Black Cards, which led to touring with Travie McCoy, multiple solo albums, and a summer on Warped Tour in 2015. Now she’s freshly independent, forming a partnership with indie label and distributor EMPIRE. In a conversation with Joel, they get into pushing yourself forward, turning pain into songwriting, and her new visual album, Dirty Blonde, out Friday (June 12). “I feel like I can always do better — this is the problem with me — but there are some records on there that I’m absolutely so proud of…” she says. “I don’t like being stuck in a box. I grew up on so many different sounds… If I wanna do a classical album next, I’m gonna do that.” ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Janice Leary, Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin Director/Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman ------- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Good Charlotte. Good Charlotte is a band I started when I was 16 with my brother, and it is the reason I'm sitting here today. Thank you, Good Charlotte. We're going on tour. June 20th, San Diego County Fair, Delmar, California. And July 25th through August 30th, Good Charlotte and Avenged Sevenfold touring in the U.S. Starting July 25th, Thunder Ridge Nature Arena in Ridgedale, Missouri, an ending at BMO Stadium in Los Angeles, California on August 30th. If you are in the UK or Europe, we're coming to you this

November. November 8th, we are in Stockholm, Sweden. November 11th, we're in Munich, Germany. November 13th, we're in Brussels, Belgium. November 14th, Dusseldorf, Germany. In November 16th, we're in Amsterdam. November 17th, Paris, France. November 19th, London, UK. November 20th, Manchester, UK. Tickets are on sale now. We will see you at the show. For me, I always just really loved, love making music. That part is the best part. Like, I really just loved it.

Well, you're good at it? I wasn't always good at it. And I have my moments, but I just loved it. I loved the feeling of it. I loved how it made me feel. I love how it was therapeutic. Sitting in my parents' basement with all their storage stuff. Got a job, bought my own computer, two KRK speakers,

a cheap microphone, was making beats on garage. band with my keyboard and couldn't even buy a MIDI and I always just love the music part of it. You know, sometimes you're making money. Sometimes we make money. I mean, in the industry, it's like, what are you going to do? Sometimes you make money, sometimes you don't. Yeah, sometimes you make an impact. Ooh, that's more important.

Sometimes you make both. Yes, that would be nice. Sometimes you have self-discussed. which is just as important. A lot of self-discovery. What's more important? What's more valuable? Self-discovery, I think.

I think, I know. And you need money to live. Yep. And you need to do something that makes you feel like life is worth living, fulfilling. Yes. And you need to grow.

D. That's what I always try to do on all the things. Duh. How old are you now? Oh, I'm very old. Take a guess. What's very old? I'm not taking a guess.

47. I was going to say 45. I'm much old. than you. Not much. You're just a baby. No, I'm not a baby. You look very young. Good. I'm not saying my age. You don't have to. Yeah. It's age is a number. Yes. Are we starting already? We're done. We're in. Oh, shoot. We jumped in. We jumped in. Oh, dang. There's not even an intro, nothing? No. Really? You don't care? No. I just like to talk. I like that. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Because usually like, hey, what's up? It's Joel here with BB Rex.

Welcome to the show. Welcome to the morning zoo. Here we are. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I haven't seen you in a while.

Very long time. We always just run into each other. Yeah. You've always been very nice. Really? Yeah. Good. I try to be nice when I'm not in a bad mood.

What puts you in a bad mood? Good interview. I don't know. Life stuff could be like relationship stuff. Maybe my mom says something to me that was annoying that day. You know mom stuff or anxiety. anxiety is a big one that's kind of a background it all it kind of hangs around in the background and you know it's there and you wonder when it's going to come boo push you I but for me now what I've noticed is that I've learned to like I don't run away from it

you sit in it oh it's here but it's like gonna go away in a second and then I try to remind myself that when I'm at a part like I was at Madonna's party the other day and I what I've just noticed is like everybody's probably feeling the same way yes I guarantee that right guarantee it yeah it was If we're not feeling that way, we're not there. We're not alive. No, we're just not there. I'm just at home if I'm not feeling that way. Oh, dead.

That's hilarious. Then I'm not feeling that way. You're right. I don't know. I feel that way too at home sometimes. That's why I don't watch scary movies. I hate scary movies. Sometimes if I'm in the mood, like I want to be scared.

But like, why should I watch a scary, why should I put myself in that situation? I'm saying. Right? Like I want to like feel good. My wife loves scary movies. I don't understand. My mom loves scary movies too. Psychopathic.

Yeah, like killing blood. all that stuff. I'm like, yo, pimple popping. Yeah. All of it. How did you learn to deal with that anxiety? Practice? I think it's not managing it. I think that it's about accepting it and not running away from it and knowing how to, I guess it's like you're learning how to self-regulate. That's true. And like you could be at work or whatever, whatever you do. And it's like if you need a moment. Like I remember when I used to be, I was a perfume girl for a long time. I was selling perfumes. At the mall? Yeah, like the store. And I would have moments even just selling perfumes because I had to make like, sell 12 bottles a day, but they were so expensive.

And like, how do I get people to buy these bottles of perfume? It's so like. And then I would go to the bathroom and just like sit on the toilet seat for like 10 minutes and take a break. Because then what are they going to say? What are they going to say? Like, what are you doing? I'm like in the bathroom.

It's just to breathe, whatever. Practice. You have to know how to like take care of yourself. And I feel like a lot of times. I see with a lot of people, they want to go, go, go, go. And she's got to, like, learn how to breathe and self-regulate. When did you develop that? Like, when did you learn that?

When did that become? Probably in the last couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, that's experience. Yeah. Doing the same thing over it. It doesn't work. You throw that out and try some little new.

Very interesting how humans we do that. Some of us. I think it comes with age as well. My mom told me that when I was younger, she's like, it's going to come with age. And I was like, mm-hmm. Like, she was right. Well, you're a very successful person. So successful people have a tendency to be high strung.

Well, high strong is something I think more like highly focused. If we're not aware of that and we're not focused on what we're interested in, which is like this long list of stats that you have of success. Yeah. It's proof of work, right? It's proof of. But when you're not doing that and you're focused on some little life. thing, you could point that same intensity at something that doesn't deserve that intensity, right? Because if we don't right size things in our life and make them the right size,

we will overreact to them. And then so learning how with experience, which I find with successful people, there's a through line with, whether they are aware of it or not, some people get there faster because they, maybe they go to therapy or they do this or they do that and they exercise these different muscles and they become more mindful, then you can organize a little bit more. You can measure a little bit more. Partimentalized. Exactly. But the thing is, I will say therapy is very helpful, but I feel, well, not that I feel,

I know. Me too. I don't remember the exact stats, but like our health system is so based on, like, physical health and we're so behind on, like, mental health. And I think it's always been a taboo. And I just feel like recently in the last, what, 15, 20 years, it's kind of been more. Yeah. Because I'm like a fact girl. Like I love like researching facts. You like truth. Yeah, I do. But I think that we have a long way to go to catch up with mental health.

And the fact that it could be so expensive, it's hard for people just to get that help. And I feel like I wish everybody, it's really nice to be able to talk to somebody. That's why like I did this thing with better help back in the day. And they were giving away. free therapy sessions to my fans. That's great. I like doing stuff like that because I know how much that's helped me and just having somebody you could talk to and just learning the techniques. This episode of Artist Friendly is brought to you by Better Help. If you listen to the show, you know we talk about therapy a lot.

I go to therapy and not something I'm uncomfortable sharing. But for some people, they don't know where to start therapy. They don't have a lot of resources or options in finding different therapists. BetterHelp has thousands of therapists. It's easy to switch if you try someone out and you don't like it. You can switch quickly to another one. It's a very good option for getting started in therapy, getting comfortable in therapy,

and learning how to do therapy because that's a big part of the process. So if you're looking to get into therapy and you don't know where to start, betterhelp.com is a great solution. It's a great option. And I would suggest therapy for everyone. Father's Day is coming up, which is a great opportunity to talk about dads, and dads need therapy too. So if you're in the fatherhood journey, you need to talk to someone about it, you need to work out parenting styles, you need to work on, maybe there's something you want to adjust or change or work on. You think you could do better.

Therapy is a great place to work these things out. It's great to have someone to talk with about it. It's great to be able to work out some vulnerable. things in the privacy of therapy. So all the dads out there that are looking to continue to try and be the best dads they can be, therapy is a great place to work on that. And BetterHelp is a great solution. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash artist friendly. That's betterhelp.com slash artist friendly. Although I will say the techniques they give you are when you wake up, get sun in the morning. Like these are like the silliest things what they work.

wake up, get sun in the morning, like as soon as you wake up, go for a walk. I spoke to this life coach one time and I was like, okay, what's the plan? Like, how do I get to the next level? Like, how do I like up my life? And he was like, okay, the first thing we're going to have you do is walk. Yeah. I said, are you kidding me? Move your body.

Move your body. And even just walking, you know, it does something to you where like kind of all your, everything that's in your mind kind of like falls out and like you could process things. But moving your body is important, being able to talk to somebody. And then also not being scared if you get to a point where you really need help. Yeah, it's, I agree. You're saying things that have facts that back it up. So the sun in the morning, it does something to get us on our...

Regulates your, what do you call it? Yeah, it regulates your circadian rhythm. That's right. And then, you know, waking your body up and moving your body is actually your systems. So it's your... If I have like really bad anxiety sometimes. I'm like, I can, I feel like running. If I go for like, if I go for like a run, it's just like immediately even stretching something. I think it's really important to move our bodies. And I think in this day

and age, like even when I'm at the studio or whatever, sitting in the car, stuck in traffic, I'm like, damn, I'm like, I didn't get any of my steps in today. It's like when I'll be like touring and stuff like that, I'll just like go walk to get coffee. Yeah. Like make sure it's like kind of far. Yeah. Just to get my steps and get your steps in everybody. Very important. And fine versions. I think 10,000 steps is BS though. Yeah.

I think it's like for somebody like me, I think like 7,000 steps is like doable. I think the 10,000 steps, I don't know where that came from. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I don't believe in the 10,000 steps. Get seven. Let's start at 5, 6, 7. I think 7 is great. The 10,000, I need the scientific research behind that because I don't think the 10,000 steps is.

I think you're right. I think it's an average. So it's like the 10,000 hour rule is actually not a 10,000 hour rule. rule. It's an average. It's actually some people get there in 2,000 hours and some people get there in 20,000 hours. Interesting. And the average across everyone is about 10,000. Okay. So if they did the same with steps, it's probably something. So where should we say? Like, I think it's probably, you're probably correct. It's probably like 5,000 to 15,000 depending on the person. Yes. And their body and their and their needs. So I think that it's a likely an average. I just feel like, because a lot of my friends are

like, got to hit the 10,000 steps. Yeah. I'm like, girl, like, I was like on an hour and 30 minute walk and I still didn't hit the 7,000 steps. I'm like, what's like, and I'm sure. And I'm like, how many times we have to do this? Like, you know, they're like, a walk two times a day. I'm like, bitch, I don't got time to walk two times. Like to get like real like hikes in? Yeah.

Like who's going to walk two times a day that long? Who can? Right? Yeah. Who's got the time? Yeah, unless you have a heavy lifting job. Some people have very active jobs. So let's say 6500.

$600 is a good number. What's the new, 65 to 7,000. I'm just saying for some people, because it's like, imagine you don't walk and you get 1,200 steps a day. You're in a job where you sit down mostly all day. And then now you're going to jump to 10,000. It's like... Yeah, what I would say is...

We talk about the most random stuff right now. We do. We do. We're talking about steps right now. Yeah, but here's the thing. Steps could mean a lot of things. Yeah. And so with people listening, I'm always trying to see what really successful people

are doing to be the best they can be. And also, if people see BB Rexa and they think, wouldn't it be nice, if I could just close my eyes and wake up and be BB Rexa? They don't understand what went into the journey of becoming and being you. Yeah. And you're just like them. You just decided to start walking in a direction and you kept going and you, you didn't stop. So whenever any obstacle came or whenever anything came, but you're still dealing with the same

garden variety problems we all have. And so if someone listening is getting stopped by something they're going to, you're going to, sorry, you're going to get stopped. Something's going to happen. Always. Something's going to happen and it's going to happen multiple times where you're going to get blocked, but go ahead. Well, that's the truth of life. And so what they need is models. to see, oh, they did that. I could do that too. And then they find their versions of what going forward means because the only way to grow, to succeed,

to have what I think is like joy in life is to go forward. You got to push. I feel like that isn't that the whole point of life? Yeah. We're all living, I try to remind myself like every day. Like, you know, I read a quote. It was about like our moms and stuff. And it's like, we forget that our moms and our parents

are just boys and girls living their lives for the first time. They're doing life for the first time. And I think I try to be really compassionate with people, whether they're in their car like cursing me out or whatever or whatever happens. I'm just like, we're all just living our life for the first time. And everybody's going through so much that we don't know about. But I think keeping the momentum to go forward is really important. But knowing that the momentum won't always be going, moving forward.

Yeah, most times. So it's like you're going to have dips. I've had those dips. Peaks and valleys. Definitely peaks and valleys. That's a career. Yeah. Sounds like a band name.

Should we start it? Peaks and Valleys? Yeah. We should. Let's say. Let's leave the rest behind. So anyone listening when it comes to steps or or sleep? Sleep?

I don't know. I don't. That's the only thing I don't do well. I don't sleep. I know. I just like, I'm like grabbing my phone and like. The phone.

The phone is a problem. I sleep next to my phone. What good does the phone bring us in life? I like, I mean, look, I think everything in life has the good. good and bad. Yeah. I personally like that it connects me to people. I'm on FaceTime all day. Yeah. If somebody calls me regular, I'm like, I can't do this. I need to see your face. Do not call me. Either text or FaceTime. Yeah. The call is painful for me. I don't know why. But I like that it connects me to people. It connects me to my fans. But then also anything in life,

too much of it, right? Like being on social media all day. Moderation. Moderation. Yeah. In all things, though. That's hard, though. But we have to find it and it's tough sometimes. But, and we all have our spots, you know, so, but for the people listening, it's more like, okay, start with something you can do. Small. Small. Small steps. And then build.

And that's how you'd build anything. I don't know if I'm like only, if it's like, I know, I'm sure many people are like this. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I'm a very like black and white person. And I'm trying to learn that there's a lot of shades of gray. There are. Right? But it's hard for me to live in the gray. But it's like, even when I'm like, try to go on a diet.

or trying to work out or whatever. I'm like all in. And then the second I mess up or like mess up, have a bad day, I'm like, whatever. It's the holidays. Go all. That one day turns into like five months. Same, same, but that's very normal.

It's very. Is that like, does everybody do that? Yes. Some people don't. Some people are just like so disciplined. But you have to zoom out a little bit and realize like there's five or six categories in life. Yeah.

One is health and fitness. One is work. What do we do? Where do we put our energy? One is relationships. So romantic or friends and family. The other one is what I would consider like the spiritual side of life, transcendent side of life, whatever that is for you.

And then there's our emotional life, which is kind of emotional health. One of those categories, every single one of us has weaker muscles. and then likely in a couple of those we do very well. Yes. In a couple of those we do okay. Yep. And then if we're able to be a unjudgmental of ourselves and analyze like where we're at, right?

What's the truth, right? Not what I want it to be. But the thing we tend to do sometimes is I think, my perspective, is we'll tell ourselves a story so that we can live with. it. True. Instead of looking at the in taking stock and going like, no, this is just where I'm at. Because our mind tells us lies. Right. And it's all, everything is built on our, what we've been through in the past. Yeah. And it builds. So whatever you may go through, everybody has some form of trauma. It could have been something as small as your teacher taking away your toy in kindergarten.

And you can't judge people on what their trauma is. So now that's always subconsciously in your brain. Then your brain, like you build like your thought patterns are built from a very young age. Yeah. So then we start like building that inside of us and it creates this pattern that follows us for the rest of our life. And we get into cycles. And we tell ourselves these stories and they could be completely completely false. Yes. And a lot of times it's really good. I use this, somebody said this to me in the studio. A writer said to me, sometimes instead of riding, being, envisioning ourselves on the roller coaster, take a step back and make believe you're watching the roller coaster. Yeah, that's a good metaphor. Because our thoughts lie to us a lot. They do.

They do. We, we, um, it's very, uh, normal, a defense mechanism. It's a safe space. Yeah. And to grow in life, this is so silly. I like, I don't even want to talk about it, but I had something happened to me and nothing bad. It was stupid. Like, and I felt a little uncomfortable, like, just like, I actually like that I feel uncomfortable in this nothing like and I was like I kind of think that it's good to be uncomfortable and it's a lot of times when it comes to relationships life's work whatever we might know that something's not right for us like a job that we're in or a relationship that we're in and a lot of times I see people do things that are safe and here we go back to moving forward and taking steps and sometimes things will be scary like and it takes time compassion here we are back with the steps but also I can

go really deep on this stuff but to be honest with you sometimes I feel like you got to also be like enough of that. Yeah, let's not be too over-analysis. Yeah, because then you get too in your head and then like, it's good to know these things to be compassionate, compassionate with you and yourself and everyone else, but also, I don't know. You don't want analysis paralysis.

I don't mind analysis paralysis, whatever, analysis paralysis. But like sometimes it's like, but then I do think it's important. I want to go back to pushing yourself forward. Yeah, you got it. When you feel too safe, do you really want to, like we live one life. Do you really want to, the truth is, in 200 years, let's say from now, the houses that we live in, all the stuff that we have, the down payments we made, the houses we're trying to save up for the apartments, the jeans, the clothes, people will be living in our houses.

Yeah. And that house will no longer be ours. Yeah, absolutely. All the materialistic things will no longer be ours. And then fast forward those 200 years, there will probably be one line in a history book about music. in this time period. And I don't know if I'll be, it's going to probably have Michael Jackson and Madonna,

which is fine. But what I'm trying to get to is we just need to live our lives and just do what makes us happy and just fulfill our lives for the best that we can. That sounds nice. Because you know your great, great, great, great, great, great, grandmother's name and like her backstory? No.

Me neither. I know they came from Ireland. Okay. Ireland? Ireland. Ireland. I think you're right. I've said this before.

and I feel like I say it with respect. Yeah. Because I'm not saying it in a criticism. Yeah. But when someone says, I want to be Elvis, I think, I don't want to die on a toilet when I'm 40. Okay. I'm not being mean. Yeah, no.

I'm saying the tragedy of the being the biggest. Yeah, well, you, I mean, like, there's people that I've looked up to all my life. And then I'm just like, it's funny when you look at certain people and you're like, the grass is not always greener on the other side, but go ahead what you were saying. So you're saying, I don't want to, I mean, poor Elvis, you know, I don't know. Yeah, poor Elvis. Even Marilyn, I'm saying. Marilyn and Roe, icon.

The tragedy. What a gorgeous woman. Her, she really created this whole persona. The tragedy. Yeah. She really created the whole persona of, no doubt. She was a very smart woman. Yeah.

I'm telling you, very smart. Yeah, she played this certain role, gorgeous, smart, but she knew how to play the part. She created this whole. She was incredible. And so was Elvis. I'm not criticizing Elvis and he seemed like a really sweet person and he was incredibly talented and he seemed like a good, a good soul. The size of the success, very, uh, if somebody said to you, you could have been Elvis, but you're going to be dead by 50. I'm going to be alive. It's not that I don't think people should be ambitious and should go for as big

as they want. Yep. But understand there's a fantasy a bit aspect of that. That doesn't come with a cost, with a sacrifice, with certain things that you may not want. Like certain people that can't even go out. Right. And is that a way to live?

Not for me. Some people like it. Some people like it. But I personally like being able to go to the mall or whatever. Some people notice me take a picture. Hey, Vee, whatever. But imagine you can't even go to the mall. You can't even.

Well, it's the idea of like, I don't want to be a king. I don't want to be a president. I don't want to be anything like that. I don't want to be the biggest of anything. I want to be happy. Absolutely. I want to make things hopefully that I feel proud of. Yep.

And the result of those sometimes is attention or some success in that way, which I'm grateful for. But also, I've grown to a place where I enjoy peace. Yeah, peace is important. And I enjoy the best part of my life is the small part. Small things, right? You like coffee? I love coffee. Like my favorite part of the day is waking up.

Yeah. A cup of coffee. The most important opinion in my life is my wife and kids. I'd be devastated if I let them down. Let them down if they were ashamed of me. Yeah. Or, you know, so now, I'm older now, though. So when you're young, you're ambitious.

Yeah, fuck this. Like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. I mean, that's a fun period though, too, because you're like, you can take more risks. Now you have to be, you know that if you take risks and you do something stupid, you have a whole family and people that you can't let down. And you have a different measurement of what success is and happiness is. So it's a young man's game in that sense of, I remember that period where I thought I wanted to be the biggest thing in the world or I thought I wanted it all. I thought, but I didn't even know what that meant. And then you get older and you realize, It's like, oh, I kind of see what that means. It's not that I don't think it must exist. Artists must create. People must go for the gusto and they must get after it. And like if you want to go right ahead. Go for it. Go for it.

But I agree. Like for me, I always just really loved, love making music. That part is the best part. Like I really just loved it. Well, you're good at it. I wasn't always good at it. And I have my moments, but I just loved it. I loved the feeling of it.

I loved how it made me feel. love how it was therapeutic, sitting in my parents' basement, with all their storage stuff, got a job, bought my own computer, two KRK speakers, a cheap microphone, was making beats on garage band with my keyboard and couldn't even buy a MIDI. And I always just loved the music part of it. That was always, I never was like, I think when I was younger, it's like, I want to be a famous singer. But then after when I like learned how to write and start producing, I was like, I just love this. And I think all the other things, kind of come with it.

And some people just have a different approach. For me, it's like I was never really into like... How old were you when you started that in your parents' basement? Oh, wow. Like 14? I always wonder, like, who told that 14-year-old girl she could do that? Nobody. Right?

Nobody. Right. So it was you. Literally nobody. I mean, I had, like, most, like, my parents at the time, like my dad's an immigrant, like they didn't want. It was more so like he was scared. Like he thought it was a waste of time.

And even came to a point, like right before I had my first big hit as a songwriter, he was like, you got to like make a decision. Like you can't be sitting in this basement all the time and like making music. Like you either got to like get a job. I had a job, but then I like, whatever. And then he's like you got to. And he's like you either got to go back to work or you got to go back to school. Right.

Because I had done two years at college, at Brew College in New York City. for music management. And then I'd gotten signed when I was 19 to my first deal. And that fell apart. And then I was like in my early 20s. I had my job at the time, everything. But then I got into like when I got dropped, I was like, oh, it was tough.

But that's when I went back into writing. I just like that it became like that pain, like just made, like, made me want to like, I don't know. It was like therapy for me. Well, at the time you'd given that deal a whole lot of credit. You thought that was the... I thought that was the maker break.

Yeah, it wasn't. When that fell through, that first deal, when it fell through, it was really tough for me because what was I like, 22, 23? I don't even remember. It was tough because I didn't understand the business aspect of it and I was still very green and I learned a lot. Of course. But you have a whole team of people at a label from product managers to the creative people

to the ANRs to all the executives, you know, calling you. what's up, talking to you, this and that. And then out of nowhere, poof, not one person checks up on you. Not one person answers your call because they no longer see you as a product. You're not part of the company anymore. So then they're like, goodbye. So to me, that happened and then didn't have management. And then I remember the day.

It was like terrible. I think I was on 14th Street or whatever. And I walked like from 14th Street all way to the ferry. It's over. Yeah, I was like, it's over for me. It's over. And then I was dramatic. I like stayed home for three months.

Yeah. Well, you'd never been through that before. Yeah, I felt like it was over. Like I felt like, oh, I ruined my shot. Had it didn't work out. Had someone, if I was there. Yeah. Oh, like, hey kid, it's tough.

Bad day. Back tomorrow. Yeah. There's other deals. Yeah. White in your view of what this thing is. We think it like when we're, like, I feel like as humans, we think everything is like do or die.

And it's one. It's only one. Back to the black and white. It can only be this one thing. never that. Even when it's like relationships, record deals, work. Likely, if I asked you now, had that deal worked out? Oh, would not be where I was at. Would that have been good luck? No, I like, I was in a, like, I wasn't at that time. I was in such a dark place because I was being in, I was like in a holding period. Yeah. Which a lot of times labels will do, especially to younger, newer

artists because essentially they're like tax write offs. Yeah. Which is messed up. Sure. Sure. But. We're a commodity. So if people don't know, they'll sign younger artists. And yeah, they'll spend a couple hundred grand, but then that's like a tax right off for them. You know, they'll do that for the whole bunch of younger artists. And what a lot of people don't know is how much success you've had as a songwriter. Because as an artist, you have so much success. 39 million Spotify monthly listeners.

I was shocked at that number. Yeah. A lot of listeners. Yeah. By a lot. Okay? Yeah. You had four songs over.

over one billion streams. Which one? Yeah, okay. You have. Okay, this is a fact. Spotify gives me this stuff directly. Okay. I talk to them. Oh, really?

I'm very close with Spotify. They tell me stuff. Okay. They're like major mover. Major mover. Big songs. I mean, and then the co-writing, which is the part, I love the craft.

So I appreciate people like you who have talent in the craft of writing songs. And you've co-written big songs. and you have uh grimmies i was nominated the monster won a grammy yeah but you didn't get a grammy for that because you didn't perform it no it was uh at the time i don't know what happened yeah i'm not sure at the time they were nominated yes you're a grammy nominated but not did you ever want a grammy you've won a grammy you smelled the grammy right you i've been close enough right you i've been close enough you got to go like this yes close oh i can almost taste it yeah i know i have no nominations no wins never even been to the grimmies

Are you serious? Uh, 100%. And I've done all the things they asked me to do when they say, come play the Grammy thing. It'll put you in the conversation. You're joking. I'm not joking. What?

I'm not bitter about it. I, I feel like that's a badge of honor. I feel like that's crazy. It's the truth. You are. Wow. That's insane.

Sorry, I'm not like, can't get over that. No, no. It's okay. Like I feel like. But at that time, did it bother you? Um, because at the end of the day, now I know, now I know, you want that recognition.

Can I be honest? Yeah. I've never said this out loud. Okay. I'm being very honest. Okay. It's a trust exercise. Okay.

The Grammys used to be a sad. The announcement of the Grammys used to be really like, I can't explain it. Like I didn't stay in the house or anything, but like I used to get really sad. Because every year I kind of hope that like, and I didn't know how it worked when I was younger. Yeah, I just didn't like, go ahead. Sorry. And I'd be like, I know how you feel. I would like go and see like, who got nice.

nominated. Maybe I did this here. This is the one. This is a great record. And never even like a freaking like mention. And I, I, um, would get really like down. And I'd be a little depressed, like a little sad. I don't even look like at the past. I don't even like look at them. When they make the announcements. I don't even. I mean, I can't. I did every year. But, uh, and then I stopped. I stopped when I got older and I realized like, I kind of made like this piece with it like, oh, I'm not a Grammy artist. What? I'm not a Grammy type artist.

And then I got... A lot of your fans would disagree. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I do not reject it at all. I appreciate that you would even think I had a Grammy. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Okay, good.

The fact that you say that, like, I can tell you're surprised. Yeah. Makes me feel like really good. So thank you. You want to hear... Yeah, I'm still shocked. But I was nominated one year for Best New Artist and then Country Song,

meant to be with Florida Georgia Line. It smells so good. So we had. The Grammy. I didn't want to do this because my team was like, we feel like you're going to win for men to be like we just have a really good feeling. Yeah. But I had set up a whole,

my mom too had set up a whole party at the house. Oh. You guys. I didn't want to. You are so sweet. So didn't win best new artist. And then I was like, okay,

you know what? And then it went to country song. And then I was like, I was sitting in my C. I was so nervous. And then they go, best country song, Dan and Shea, tequila, and my heart just dropped into my stomach. And I could, I could, you know, respect that it was a great song. It's not about the other artists. It's the

experience you had. That's all. It's like, going back home to all the balloons. Oh. And the people. That was really hard. I'm not going to lie. I went like just straight to my bedroom, took my, I had this big red dress on, took my dress off and just laid on the bed. Okay. But here. There's the thing. I was so sad. I know. I was like, after that you're like, you try, you know when you see like the artist on camera and they're like, they're like, deep down, it hurts, you know?

You're going to be happy for them, but deep down it hurts, you know? It's like this. When they do those camera shots, I think, I think it's so evil when they do those camera shots of the people when they lose. That is the ultimate like. Did they say my name? That would be me, that would be me, I'd be like, Is it say my name? I can't tell.

But no, what I'm saying is this. Okay. I'm laughing, but here's the thing that I never want you to give up. Yeah. Okay. And me too. Yeah. That I wanted to win. Oh, yeah. And that I was disappointed.

Me, same. And I had to act like, it was cool. That's cool. I don't want to fucking grab me anyways. I feel like anytime people say something, like bigger artists don't want to get into it, it's because I don't personally, like, I believe in love and hate. Yeah. But I don't really truly believe in hate.

I believe that hate is confused love. If something moves you enough for you to feel like an anger towards it, there's something in there that is, that doesn't feel right or is confused. Because if you really didn't care, if it didn't bother you, you'd just be like, ah, you know what I mean? Yes. So I believe like when artists say that, I feel like it's kind of bullshit. Yeah. But then I feel like that's their way of, you know, speaking out to kind of get over it because it does hurt.

They're dealing with it. Nobody ever, yeah, nobody ever, I think intends to make bad art. That's why I try to judge people. You think somebody goes, oh, today I'm going to make this painting. I want to make the worst painting ever. I want to make a bad song. I want to everybody's always just trying their best and doing what they can. But when artists say they don't care, I'm like, look, it's not everything.

I understand what they mean. When you get older, you're like, okay, it's not everything. But you still would love the recognition. You still would love, I think it's more so the recognition of your peers. you know, and everything in the industry and everything in life is about perception. And now I'm starting to see it more than ever. I'm around people, meet the biggest celebrities.

Some of them are iconic. And then some of them are like, hmm. And here's the truth, too. It's not a game that you can win. It's a human-based system that is... Based on perception. The members vote to get through the first round. And then when the next round comes, it's committees.

Yes. Of who goes in about whatever. And then the members vote again. I don't care what anyone says. Yeah. There's 50 people or 100 people in this category. And then people are just scanning through looking for the maybe the one artist they want to vote for. And then they're like, oh, oh, oh.

It's not this system that it's an old system, even though it's done online now, whatever. It's still what I would do if I were the Grammys. is I would impart a couple elements into the process. I would have one part, digital, a feed of actual success. Like online, like your streams, your views, your, and then that should, that should count. Like how you move culture a little bit too. Right. That should count towards.

Okay, I understand that. But then now here's this. Yeah. You could also argue that all, yes, popular music, whatever it may be, streams, hits and stuff like that. But then you could also argue that there's also artists out there that maybe have music that is incredible that have not been given that opportunity. Because sometimes you'll see some people win and I'm like, I don't know who this person is. But then I'm like Googling them. I'm like, oh, wow, this person's amazing. That's the human part. Okay. Okay.

So that that part. X the human part. That part should exist. Okay, good. But there should be some more modern. If we, if we account, if in 2026, what constitutes a platinum records different than it was in 1980. True. If what constitutes all these different categories, the metrics are different now. There are things like the Grammys that need to be modernized more. The Grammys have been super focused on diversification,

which is a good thing. But that's been the M.O. for the last, like, I would say 10 years, right? They've been trying to make it more diverse, more representative.

that's really good. Yeah, I love that. That's different from the voting system. Okay? So the Gramies have made strides in lots of ways. And then in other ways, they're still, in my opinion, behind. And it's not a system that's like perfect. By the way, I think they probably would agree with me.

So I'm not afraid to say this out loud. And I also am not at risk. I've never won a Grammy and I don't ever plan on it. I'm not saying anything because I'm not scared. I'm still in the running. You still have a long. Unless we do a song together. Yes.

Well, I'll probably win then. I feel like, yeah, I feel like, come on, bro. Like, come on, like, what? No Grammy, no, I think. Are you kidding me? I think that you, I think you have a lot of Grammy. Maybe I should do just like, I was saying I want to do a classical album. All of it.

Because I studied, I studied opera for a while. Wow. And that's what I wanted to do. But then, I don't know, I ended up in pop music. Maybe I should do it. Popular music. Yeah, well, you're popular. Popular.

It's a good thing. Classical's cool. I love randomly. Like, I don't remember where we were recently. I have a bad memory somewhere in Europe. And I booked an opera and I went to go see an opera. I'll do it sometimes alone. That's good.

I love it. I love it. It's so inspiring. Like the costumes, the way the versions they do of each, like I saw the three-part act of Puccini. And like I love Gianni. I'm going to say it wrong. But there's a song that I love.

That's sweet. Why is that sweet? That's just like something I like. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's nice to enjoy beauty. Yeah. And like beautiful things that aren't necessarily.

The payoff is how it makes you feel when you watch it and it's beautiful. I like it. You don't like opera. I could tell by the way you're saying this. No, I'm not particularly. No, no. I like opera. I like your opera.

But have you ever heard an opera singer live? Like been in like the. Yes. It doesn't speak to. Yeah. It doesn't move me. What? Like what moves you?

music wise. Like what can you listen to and you're like, I have goosebumps and like... A musical. Wow. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Like what kind of musical? Any great musical, Le Mezz or even modern ones like...

What is the difference to you of a music? I mean, I know there's differences, but what is it that moves you that classic, like opera can't move you? I think opera is... So I love classical music. Yes. So I listen to classical music a lot in the morning. a lot of times we have like Chopin or different kinds of classical music playing. In fact, in my Spotify rap, every year, my top three is classical music.

Interesting. So I do listen to a lot of classical music. The style of singing, I don't love it. Interesting. I think it's beautiful. Like the heavy, like the heavy like the whole like that. I see. I could see that.

I do think like the voice as an instrument. But also at the. depends on the type of, now like I'm trying to get you to like come onto the opera side, trying to like, I also think it depends on the type of voice. I'm sure. Because a lot of them could be a lot like, like, heavier. And I think in the years it's changed where it's more about clarity. And like, I don't know, I personally also like an opera singer that's more in vamula.

Like she did a song that ended up being in the fifth element where they like, remember when it was like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da da da da da da da da. Uh, uh, they took her voice. waste and like, you probably don't know what I'm talking about. No, I like to hear you sing though. That's nice. That's not singing, but. But it is. I'll hurt a little bit. No, not really.

But you know what you're talking about. Yeah. It's interesting. See, that was cool to me. Yeah. I want to play it for you. But I like a musical is a bit like opera. Because you like musicals because you can understand them better.

They captivate my imagination. Yeah. They capture me. Yeah. I used to do musicals in high school. we would put two on a year. Two on a year. You were like a theater nerd? Yeah, it was.

That's sweet. Little Shop of Horrors, Jesus Christ Superstar, Fiddler on the roof. And you just loved it. Is that way you did it? I loved it. I actually love musicals. They actually asked me to do something on Broadway, but I just was too busy. Do you think that what I hear and see when you tell me about your younger life in your

parent's basement or at school doing, musicals and then trying really hard and getting your first deal and then it balls through and then becoming a huge success but do you think that the little girl because it sounds like you were very sweet and like you just wanted to make stuff and like and imagine things and make things and feel like that part of you of course felt alive and like the fairy tale part right like the more the unjaded part right this like you know like when you're younger I feel like like all kids and babies are like angels. Yeah, yeah, we just want to play.

Yeah. And we see the world in a really nice way. Mm-hmm. But do you think that you had somewhere in the experience of growing up and then coming into a really hard industry that like no one gave you, no one prepped you for it? No one sat you down. So, here's the deal. Yeah.

You're going to, your first deal is going to fall through. Yeah. Then you're going to keep going and then this will likely happen and then that'll happen probably down there. And then you know what? You're going to have a hit song there. and then likely this will happen. And then so just get ready.

Well, who was going to tell me that? Right. My dad who came from Albania, right? So, me too. Right. Me too.

Like, my dad was making pizza. Like, you know what I mean? For 275 an hour. Yeah. Like the whole, the whole mission statement of my company

that is a great company, MDDN, can I be the guy I wish I'd met? Period. Oh. Done, period. That's it. Can I just,

can we just be the guy? You met somebody that helped kind of guided you through? That I wish I'd met. Oh. Can I be the guy that I wish I'd met? And who is that guy? Well, he's a guy who would encourage me. He would explain things to me so that I could learn them and keep them instead of me need him

so that he could take advantage of my need of him. And that's the way this business works. And so what I'm saying is I'm just, it's not like this business is full of awful people. There are bad actors in every single business. whether it's medicine or if it's churches or if it's the music industry or if it's anywhere that you could say sounds like a good place. Oh, doctors saved lives. And there's some bad ones. Also, you know what I want to say? Maybe there's doctors out there that just passed their exam. And they became a doctor just past their exam. They're not very competent.

Well, maybe they end up being. You don't know. Right. Because I think a good doctor not to get into something different now is, but like I understand what you're saying is like. There's bad people, but there is good people too. Oh, a lot. And it takes a village. It does take a village. Right. So that's my point is I'm not saying the music industry is any different from any other industry.

Yeah, you could be working. But we are sold like it's this fantasy and all your dreams come true. The industry you mean? Or just life or? Just the idea of success in this thing we do. Yeah. Like, I'm going to grow up and be a rock star. Right.

What does that mean? we're told it's this amazing thing. It's got aspects of it that are incredible. And then there's aspects of it that no one tells you about. And there's, right? Yes. And so you've lived it. The good times are great.

And then the bad times are really bad. And there's plenty of stuff, right? In between, up and down, it's all the above. It's really how you finish your thought, though, because I don't want to cut you up. The young woman who had dreams, who sets out and who's got talent. And she's like, and Oh, I got, I had First deal falls through.

I had such a drive. I had, I was, Joel, I had such a drive. And you still do? Yes, but I was so, I was more like, I felt more like, not jaded. Like, I really loved it and I felt like I was too naive, a little bit too insecure, a little, like, I was very, I knew that I didn't look, like, how,

the artists that I grew up on, I know I didn't look that way. I was always, like, never had like the six, the abs. And I was always trying to find myself. you never had abs? No. Yeah. When I was like super, super fit at one point,

the only thing I ever got was like the side, like the thing I could never get. That's too hard. What I'm saying though. Sorry, let's go back to the thing. Sorry. My question. So my question.

Okay. What's the question? Is do you feel like at some point you had, whether you were conscious of it or not, had to push her back and protect her and become someone

that could do that to somebody else or or just not someone not like you had to be a different person yeah but you had like you said to become jaded yeah to protect what it is to experience this industry as a sweet naive excited dreamer yeah who believes in the good we've all done it but to recognize that I had to do that to survive is important. I think that's just life in general, though. Yes. Sorry, I don't mean to make everything about life, but I think that's life in general.

It's really corny. But if I were to say something to you, if you were to think of yourself as your youngest age, what age would you think of yourself? Oh, my God. It could be, not youngest. It could be like, when I say, Joel, look back on your, like, when you were younger,

what age comes to mind right away? 15. So that's probably. Where I got stuck. Not where you got stuck, but you probably face some trauma something happened in your life that really affected you. Big time.

And not me trying to be a therapist right now. But you are. Therapies. The one thing I've learned is it's silly. It's silly, silly, silly, silly, silly. But if you could go back and imagine that 15-year-old boy is like in like, I say like in the chambers of your heart right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he's like inside of you. Like what would you say to him? Like if you could say like, I'm here to protect you. Like I'm here now. I got you. Like I won't let. anything bad happened to you anymore. And I think those younger kids live inside of us.

And we need to remind ourselves because we're still, like, I feel like we live with, everybody lives with some type of hurt and some type of trauma. And we have to go back and say, and you have to go back to the 15 year old Joel and be like, hey, I know this happened to you, but now I'm older, I'm more grown.

And then, and I got you. And I got you, why don't you go, like something you would have loved when you're 15, like, why don't you go to the arcade real quick? Here's some cat. You know, if you make up this story, here's some cash and just go play at the arcade and whenever you're ready come back, I'll be here. And I think it's like those little things that sound really silly that like help us feel like

we find that and like protect ourselves and like heal ourselves through those ways. You're really good. I know. I really want to study psychology at some point. You've already studied it. You just described inner child work. Yes. But.

Which is really important and I really recommend it. But you're really good. You came on my show and you're going to make me. I'm sorry. I saw it so I kind of pulled back a little bit. No, you, you hit me. I don't want to, because I'm not a therapist like that, but I could also like, you are though. I could also, I've been through a lot and, uh, personally and have really worked, try to work on myself. I can tell. Yeah, try to work on myself and, you know, I'm not everybody. I'm not a doctor. So, you know. I say it all the time on this show. Yeah, I'm not a doctor, but. But it is a hobby.

But if you were to, but it's a really interesting question that I've been asked before and that I've, if you, you know, if you were to think of an age, anybody in this room right now or watching, the age comes to you immediately. 15. And then you got to go back and say, why this age, what happened to me? Why did I feel scared at this time at this age? What changed? What thing was triggering to me? And then we have to go back and really like heal ourselves from that age because there's something that lives with us forever. And what I wanted to get to is a lot of time. we do get jaded. We're living this life. Things happen. You're in a music industry. You're in a relationship. You're wherever you are. And people will leave you high and dry. Yeah, it's real life. People will hurt you. You will get jaded. And that's what's making you stronger, though. But then you have to get to a point where you need to show up for that little boy or little girl inside of you that's still inside you that feels hurt. Because that's also the kid who had the dream. Had the dream and got you here.

If that kid had never started making beats in her parents' basement and dreaming of what she would become and what was possible, you wouldn't be here. But somehow along the way, we discount that kid. Oh, we lose it. I lost it for a second. After all the hurt. We all do.

After all the hurt and all the music business drama and, you know, it's really tough sometimes. You know, it's been, I'm really grateful for what I do because you have to say that because people are like, I am, I'm blessed. But it is really hard sometimes, especially when I'm around other peers or it could be in that Grammy situation

or just at certain award shows and it does feel like high school you know and I've never felt like I was part of the cool kids you know maybe you did because you were kind of like in a band I didn't really no I felt alone I never felt like I was I was part of the cool kids I remember being at my first like the I Heart Radio Awards and sitting around all these like celebrities and stuff like that

and I just felt like I didn't belong I had such bad imposter syndrome. But you're so cool. See, but I don't like. I know you maybe don't think you are, but I'm as an outsider. Yeah. I just go, look at this cool girl here. Yeah.

Look at her. Coming in here. All cool. All cool. Like you come across very strong and confident. But at people, yeah. Now, but I feel like, you know, you want to be, you know, this industry is brutal. Yeah.

But you have to come, you have to come to a certain place where you stop looking for the permission or acceptance of others. Or this perceived idea that like, if I'm not careful, I start comparing myself to like. I'm so fucking over that, honestly. But how am I supposed to look at 47? How am I supposed to be? How am I supposed to? Nah.

And I think. Don't see, you're putting, you're putting, sorry. Look, I feel like this is turning into a therapy session. It is. I would be like a bitchy therapist, though. Like, I would help you. I would help you. But then I'd be like, okay, Joel.

Let's snap out of this shit. I don't care that you're 47 years old. Yeah. You got your life ahead of you. I don't know. Maybe you're going to make one of your best albums. Maybe. You don't fucking know.

So let's not, let's stop doing this. We're not doing this self-sabotage shit. That's what we have. But that's the thing is like, you know, like, you said it.

Am I being too New York and too like harsh? No. No, I love it. You're like, you're like the sister everyone needs. Yes. Tell them like,

what fuck are you talking about? Yeah. Get out there. Do it. You know what I mean? Well, because, look, I'm going to keep saying this. Now I see in life, everything is about perception. Some people just play the game better.

I met somebody, one of the biggest producers, and they said, I met the biggest stars in the world, and I will tell you they're just the best actors and actresses. Right. And they really have a different type of confidence. They don't ask for permission. They just do it. And they definitely feel insecure, but they just can play the part so good.

Fake it till you fucking make it. And for me, I was always this girl who was always like, Is this good? Can this be this? What should the single be? Even though I knew in my heart, what should the single be? What should it look like?

I just want to make everybody happy at the label. I just want to make, I just, you know, is everybody happy? Is everybody happy? And then instead of falling your gut, then you get caught up in this thing. And now I've come to a place where I'm like, you know what? Like if I end up in a room and people don't want to like give me recognition

or whatever in my flowers, I'm like, cool bro. Like, that's fine. Like, I'm going to like go home to my dog and like watch my favorite show. I'm good. Like I'm tired of asking for permission. Like I don't like who the fuck are you you go home you shit the same way I do.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like look at my PR looking at me like oh gosh. That's the truth. No, but I'm just saying like we all end up in the same spot. We all end up in the same spot. You know what I mean? Six feet under.

Six or seven? This is true. Six. Six feet under. You know what I mean? Unapologetic. Let's get to Dirty Blonde now. Yeah.

So, so. Okay. So I will say before we talk about Dirty Blonde. I think you would love my song the way I want you. It's really good. It goes into like big guitar moments and it's like, but the way it starts is sick. It's so good. It's not one that's been released yet.

No. Like all those ones that have been released are more like dance and like. Right. But like my favorites are like the more like time, which talks about like time, you know, time like feeling like I wasted a lot of my good years on the wrong people or like in the wrong situations. That's related. At the wrong labels or and wanting to. It's actually, um, the lyric is time.

Feels like I wasted all my innocence. Wasted all my best. best years on you. Real. I'm trying to find the girl that I once knew, you know. So many good times, but I never had a good time, you know? And those songs are really important to me on the project. Do you love this record?

I do. Yeah. I want it to like, I feel like I can always do better. This is a problem with me. But there are some records on there that I'm like absolutely like so proud of, like the way I want you. I'm so proud of that song. I just like love like how it starts.

because the thing is like with me, I'm just like, I don't like being stuck in a box and I grew up on so many sound, like so many different, like, I feel like especially you when you came up with your band, like you had a sound.

You did. You did. And it was iconic, you know, and for me, it's like, I'm always like kind of songwriter first. And I just hate being stuck in a box. And with like my song, the way I want you,

it's like the perfect mix of like live instrumentation, a little bit of rhythmic. We have those live good, big heavy guitars but then it goes into like a dance moment it's just like that's like how i would say who i am a little bit of all of that i'd agree with that yeah i don't put you in a box thank you have a ton of experience you you've been like in like you've always been experimenting in with like all the time like from the beginning which could be like also like some you know i'll read comments online and people will be like be like come on just fucking stick to a brand whatever and i'm

like, no bitch. Yeah. This is like I, this is like I not to be like, you know, like, like not to be like, what's the word egotist? I don't know. I don't know what the proper word is. You can't find the word. It ain't true. Okay. Well, there you go. But for me, it's like I've been in the road. I've written with Dolly Parton and I've written with Florida Georgia line and then David Getta and then songs for Eminem, Nicky Minaj, Rihanna. Like I, it's like, you've been here. So I've been here, but it's like the thing with me is it comes down. What I feel like people are not understanding is like it comes down to the fucking songwriting. Yeah.

Because they see me and they'll probably in the past, everything was so glossed over because I was at major labels and they want everything at the time to look a certain way. So they'll gloss you over and then they don't get to see who the real you is, which is the real me is just a girl from New York City, Albanian, like very unapologetic, maybe a little too real at times. And like also just somebody that's just, you know, always just trying to like speak their truth, but it comes down to the songwriting. And for me, I don't want to be fucking stuck. Like I said, if I want to do a fucking classical album next, I'm going to do that shit.

Should. I think you grew up in front of everyone because you were young when you started. I think that you, if there's any question, you know, for me, I have zero questions. You're talented, hardworking. You've been here. You've done all, everything you just said, you don't have to say, right? It's sometimes people make you feel like you might have to say. I've done all this because in the world that we live in, the bad are so good at making the good think they're bad. You don't need to explain just because your resume isn't in front of you the way some people's are in other places. Like the thing about being a creative is we don't walk in the room with this stack of papers of everything we've ever done, right? But you did it.

And I know that. And everyone that knows knows what they know, right? Like, and people that are for real can see it. But what I see is you're very sweet. So that's a good thing. But you're talented, you work hard and you've got, you got stuff. Hootspa. What? Yeah, that's it. It's that New York.

That's three, go ahead. Like claws. It's like, I'm from New York. Don't fucking tell me, right? Which is a good thing. Not to go off the thing, but I remember when I first started in the music business, like I was working with some like big producers and stuff and I was always just, I didn't know the LA vibes.

Yeah. So I'd walk in the room and then they would like sit down on me after and be like, how was the session? I'm like, terrible. And I remember leaving. And then I told a really big producer that because I was working with one of his producers. And I was like, it was terrible. And then his manager pulled me aside after and was like, you don't tell blah, blah, blah.

You better watch it, kid. No, you don't tell him that it was bad. You say it was good. And then you come to me and say it was bad. I'm like, but why? Exactly. I'm like, I don't. So I was never like that, hey, everybody.

I'm so happy to be here. It's a good thing. You know, I was like, yo, I was like, let's get this. I got this idea. I want the beat to sound like this. I want the... And then I was always like the girl in the room that was like knew what she wanted

and everybody's like... Well, that's a part of your success. It's you. The more you can be, the more you, you are. So be you. Are you excited for Dirty Blonde's? Like, are you like,

I can't wait for this album to come out? There's so much I want to do though. Is that a good feeling? Yeah, but there's so much I want to do that I'm like, I can't sleep. You got to get some sleep. The six hours minimum. I do like four or five.

You got even more than that. I know, I know. Sleep what? Seven's a sweet spot. I mean, I wish I could sleep nine hours. You should try relaxing magnesium before bed. Okay. It really works.

I've tried it before, I think. It works for me. Really? Yeah. But I put my phone away. I don't put my phone away. That's the thing. You can't fall asleep with the phone.

I know. But anyway, let's go back so we can end this in a positive note. Yes. This is going to be a really big episode. It's going to do really well. I hope so. And everybody loves you. Not everybody.

Oh, yeah. Not everybody, but they should. No, I'm just kidding. Not everybody, but that's all right. That's all. I'm going to make you love me, baby. I think you are so talented and you've worked really hard. And I know you know that already because you did it.

But it's good to hear it because you're in the middle of a career that has so much optionality. And potential. Beyond potential. because you're no longer a person who just has potential. Of course you have potential. You've proven the potential was there. And it's solid.

It's in the billions of streams. It's in the fact that your name. For me, I want to jump in on that. Yeah. If you don't mind. I don't mind. For me, I think during COVID, like the whole, I feel like we lost like so many years of our lives.

Yeah, we did. And we don't remember that it's seven years ago. And where I was at in my career and the things. that led up to, you know, when I was in that, in that, nominated for those Grammys at that year when it was meant to be a brand new artist, a best new artist, there was such an amazing feeling and an energy happening. And then a lot of unfortunate events happened, like in a row, boom, boom, boom, boom, that fans could feel it online and they don't know all of the background behind it, but it did really eat away at me as a person. And it became very hard for a very long time.

because I felt like I was, and this is beyond label. I mean, I just, it's all, and I felt like I was really stuck. Your experience, yeah. And I was in a really low place. And the one thing that killed me for such a long time was when I had put on my EPs in my first album, there was such an energy. It was the culture.

It was the people. It was the fans. And that, to me, is the most important part. And then somewhere along the line, I felt like I was diluted. I was diluted because I, maybe wasn't around the right people. Maybe they were trying to chase what a hit would be,

what a pop star looked like, rather than like, who is B.B. Rexa? And like, what does she stand for? What's her story? Where is she from? And that's the most important thing. And I think now I feel like I've been able to come back with an incredible team of people that are like uplifting me

to a point where it doesn't feel like I'm in a cage or I'm like reaching and desperate for like that. To me, it's like being able to build the fan base and the people back to where the energy is just, to me, the culture and the people is like the most important thing. Beyond the billion streams, even though you said that, like great billions of streams. To me, it's like, I'm sure you can go on the road

and still sell out because you have those hardcore fans. We're very fortunate. Yes. But what I would offer is the experience, you had, if you didn't have it, where you got to, where you are now, I can see it and feel it, is that, as you know who you are. And I think that had you not gone through that, you might still be asking that question. Absolutely. And so sometimes it's painful to go through those moments, but what you experienced is important. And it is kind of like your story, your growth, your arc,

all that. There's nothing better than to arrive on solid ground where I know who I am. I know how I feel. I know when I have a feeling like, that's it. I don't have to question it anymore because I had to go through all the questioning and all the people and all the bad people and all the relationships and all that. They are just a vehicle. They are just a lesson. They are just our teachers. They are not, it's not personal. It feels personal at the time. And then I look back and I go, thank you for teaching me. Yes. And so where I think you are now, the new album and just sitting with you. Yeah. I say what you've accomplished, one to give you your, to give you credit. Right? Because you deserve it. You worked hard to have it. And that girl didn't have to leave her parents' basement and put

herself out there. And this world is fucking hard. And it is hard for us to step out in front of everyone. And go, hey, look at me. Here's my song. And then we have to stand by while everyone says the good, the bad and everything in between. Right. And what I have to remind myself is I kind of to take it all with a grain of salt because now I know who I am. I'm staying and I'm on solid ground and I know what I think, how I feel and you just know yourself and you know yourself but you have to go through all that to get here. To really be like strong in your and some people it takes them a different time, you know, to get to that. Everyone's journey is a different timeline right. But you're on yours and yours is yours. That's it. No one else gets to have it. No one else gets to own it. It's just you.

And what I say to give you your credit of all the things you've accomplished. And when I I say your career ahead of you, I would not say it's potential. I would say it's a matter of what you decide to do. You're proven. It's not a question now. I mean, as long as I'm alive, I ain't going nowhere. Let me tell you that. So just stay alive. God forbid I. 10,000 steps. Something might happen. I don't know, but if I'm still alive, honey. 6,500 steps. Yeah, 6,500 steps, small steps, believe in yourself. But I'm just saying, congratulations. Thank you. On all the success. And thanks for coming and good luck with the record. I'm really rooting for you. Thank you. Thanks, Joel. I appreciate you. Good to see you. Good to see you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Artist Friendly. You can also watch the episodes on Spotify. Spotify premium users get no commercial breaks on my show. Make sure to follow, like, and comment because I always read the comments.