Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Ben Lee

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

This week on Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Australian musician Ben Lee.  With over 10 solo albums to his name, Lee has remained busy since kicking off his musical career in the alt-rock outfit Noise Addict in 1993 (a band that captured the attention of Sonic Youth’s Thurston Moore and Beastie Boys’ Mike D when he was only a teenager). He’s also collaborated with author Tom Robbins for B Is for Beer: The Musical and scored HBO’s TV series Camping. In the episode, the pair dive into parenthood, being a mentor for the next generation, and Lee’s favorite artist of all time. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden. This is artist friendly. And today I'm talking to Ben Lee. Ben. Yeah, mate. Welcome, dude. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Oh, dude. So happy you're here. We got a long history. We have a very long history. And I was thinking about it when I was driving over. I was like, where do I start with Ben? Do I start now or do we go back? Do I start with my story with my relationship to your music first and then you. Or do I start with you? And then we have this stuff because, you know, Josh, me, Benj, have all been fans of yours since the beginning of your music.

How old are you? How old am I now? Yeah. 44. So we're the same age. Yeah. Which is crazy to me. You have lived so many lives, I think.

in just music, but like it's crazy we're the same age, because I just feel like you were there doing it in such a special time that is like in the DNA of like my whole concept of like what's cool and what's good is the time when you started. And so we have these little, you know, little mementos, but they're... Artifacts. They're artifacts, but super important. And it feels even special holding it because it takes me right back to, this is the promotional

cassette for the noise addict. Oh, wow, cool. So how did you get that, though? That's because this is long before you were in the industry. Yeah, but we used to go, you know, you go to the record traders. Yeah. So I think back in the day, like people that worked at record labels would. sell all of the free shit they got to the record traders like swag yeah like they would I actually

knew a guy who did that who worked at a label um who I met on the early come up when we were trying to make it and he would just take all the swag that because the labels just had piles of CDs and tapes and all that stuff and he would sell it to the used record store it's a good side hustle it's a good entrepreneurial spirit yeah uh and And this is the first, the noise addict, young and jaded. Yes, I'll tell you something funny about this CD. So this came out on Grand Royal. And I didn't know how to, they said, what do you want on the cover?

And I was like, well, how do you put text on a picture? Because people now take for granted, like Photoshop and things like that. But literally, I saw albums that had like a typeset. And I was like, I've got a photo, but how do you do that? And I remember going into the label and they brought this. translucent paper and some markers, like butcher paper. And you just wrote it. And they put it over it and they said, do what you want.

So I just drew this kind of stuff. And then on the inside, I just drew all these. And that was basically how my first artwork got done. How old were you? That would have been 14. Oh, my God. Yeah. 14.

So, okay. And so this is cool. So you see the shirt you're wearing? Yeah. X large. This is the same shirt. Oh, right on. little gifts for you oh my gosh really thank you so much that is that is a real i mean for people

who know underground music culture alternative history and everything ex large ex-girl was a really big yeah you know force in the 90s thank you so much there's some little artifacts for you to this i've got many copies okay okay so i'll keep that with you guys keep that in the office but these are amazing yeah cool so um wow so I guess that's a good place to start. And then I can share, you know, when I discovered you music. But you started, you were 14. Yeah. So I saw Nirvana play at the Big Day Out, 91, 92, it was right over that. It was either like right before Nevermind came out or right after it came out. They'd had this tour booked in Australia before the album came out. So no one knew it was going

to be as big. And they were like slotted onto like mainstage opening, whatever. the festival. And then in the preceding months, they got massive and they ended up, you know, basically becoming the headline as this festival. But so I was there and I was 13. Who took you? I just went with a, I was already going a lot of concerts. Oh, wow. Yeah. Like, I first started going to like see Motley crew and everything. My dad would take me. And then when I got into like, you know, all ages, punk shows and everything, like my parents would drop me off and pick me up. And I proved myself a response, a kid response. able to handle the responsibility as far as they knew. And so anyway, I saw Nirvana. And that was actually

the first thing that made me go, okay, hang on. This is like the biggest band in the world right now. And this is clearly three friends standing on a stage playing songs. Like they were using the in-house lighting guy. It was not a production, you know. And it was, it was that thing. Like that was my year zero moment that everyone who loves punk and even the spirit of it, like people have it in hip-hop too, but that thing you see that makes you think you can do it. Yeah. That was that moment. And basically, I started my band, Noise Addict the next day. Amazing. Yeah. That's kind of the same story with me and Benj. We saw the Beastie Boys. And we started our band the next day. That concert was it once I saw them on. It was that same thing clicked. I was like, oh,

you go and live, you see something about, even if you'd been to a little show. show or this, whatever it was about that one performance you saw, like you with Nirvana, something clicked for you that these were people doing it. Yeah, because you didn't get that at Motley Crew or Skid Row shows. Like, that seemed otherworldly. Right. Like, it was so glamorous. It would be like going to see, no one goes to see Lady Gaga now and he's like, I could

do this. This seems reasonable. The production is so overwhelming and there's so clearly teams of people making it happen. Right. But so those kind of moments where you go, it's within reach. It's brilliant, but they're also not rocket science. Yeah. And that's the bit that makes it seem achievable.

Right. So you start noise addict in the garage. Yeah, we basically had a little, there was like a scout hole across the road from us that we could kind of get into. It was like a community center. Yeah. And we'd rehearse there. And, you know, it's like, it's so funny because when I met you, it's, it's, this thing that I don't know if people know a lot of Yiddish, but it's chutzpah. Yeah. The chutzpah you need

to start is so intense. Like, I know I've told this story many times, but when I met you and Benji, it was because you guys snuck backstage at the 930 club at my gig. Cracker. And you were just like, I don't know if you said, can we play you a song or we're in a band and I got a guitar and was like, play me a song. But it was that sense. Sometimes you can't achieve the importance. You can't achieve the possible without a delusional sense of... A naive, delusional. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, if I try this, it could work.

It's so, and you're basically wrong, except for the fact that history is littered with stories of people that were able to do it. Exactly. But looking at the odds, it is not going to happen. It's just not, you know. Statistically speaking. Yes. So the insanity in it, and that's, I think, what I, where we connected, yeah.

that we've both been on this very interesting, very long journeys that have had stumbles and clumsiness and big dreams and failures and successes. But basically, we're still insane, still thinking we can do the impossible. And that is the one vital ingredient for success, I believe. I agree with you. I love the way you put it. I really love the way you put it. It makes so much sense to me.

I almost feel like kindred spirits, because you do feel insane when you do this. You put it very well, like 20-some years of doing this. None of it is sane. And even to this day, the things that we set out to do are continue to be insane. But you meet other crazy people. And, you know, I also believe in the, you know, whatever you want to call it, the more spiritual side of life, the metaphysical side of life. physical side of life, the destiny part, right? That, you know, I believe we, we are drawn to something

by our subconscious leads us, and we walk towards the light in our best selves. And when we're being our best version of ourselves, we're heading towards the light. And I think we have these people that are very special. I've always considered you one of those kindred spirits, It's our paths cross. And you, they just do when they do. And you, it's interesting because like, I think the way you summed it up, I've never actually heard anyone sum it up like that. Using Yiddish.

Yeah. But also, like, just say it all. You just wrapped it all up in a, in a. Well, that was great. Yeah. Cool. See you. That's exactly it.

I think, I think you now, now, now. I feel like people could listen to that and understand what it feels like to have a career in art, in music, in creative endeavors. And you know what the other aspect of it too that I think we've both always believed is that it is a very long game. It is very long. And in some ways, if you're playing a long game, like when I was 18, I used to say to people, I'm going to be making the best music of my career in my 70s.

Yeah. Because I looked at people like Johnny Cash and Tom Waits and Neil Young and I was like, oh, that's the career I won. So I saw how they were really long, interesting winding roads. But where they ended up was just undeniable. Just kick ass, man. Because they took it on the chin all the way through their career and stood up for what they believed. And when you say that when you're 18, it's laughable. Right. But now I'm in my 40s. So I'm 30 years in time. I'm 30 years in my career. So I'm halfway there. And now when I say to people, yeah, I'm going to kind of peak in my 70s, most people go, you probably are. I don't know. You, you've, when you say it to me, I go, you know what, if there was anyone that could, it's you. So I don't even, I, that's for other people to say,

as far as the quality. But I just mean the tenacity. And I think that if you're the kind of person who plays a really long game, you have to be okay with being underestimated. All the time. And that is an area that I feel like I spiritually understand where you and Benji have always been with that, that you've realized it's incremental, like the victory is incremental. And I'll just share another thing about that I associate with. It's interesting because we've spent a lot of time together over the years, but there's a story about you that I always thought was so telling about the way you saw the long game.

And I can't remember who it was. Maybe it was Felice, was it a girly action? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she said on that record, I forget which good Charlotte record it was, that you guys had, you said, look, we've never even been reviewed in Rolling Stone. Right. They just don't give us a look in. We just want a review.

Doesn't even have to be good. Yeah. For this next record, we would like a look in from Rolling Stone. Yeah. And she was like, and we got it and the guys were really happy. It wasn't a great review. It was like, I can't know what it was. terrible review. But no, but the point was, you understood that a real career is a series of accumulated

mini victories. Yeah. You know, and I think that type of patience, I bring that up because you were talking about the sort of like spiritual or like the vibe component. And patience is a huge part of it because it is such a long ride, you know? I think when we're young, we want everything right now. and I think what I learned in my mistakes is that forcing something is not the way. It's, and in any part of my life now, I kind of apply it everywhere. I look at my life more of like a garden that I'm growing versus something that I'm trying to quickly build and sell. Because I think that that is what I gained from the years I spent doing this.

making music and then putting it out into the world, I understand now that we make something first for ourselves, and it's like a good chef that makes a meal, and then they go, okay, this tastes good. Now I want to make it for someone else. I want them to try it. And I think, like, getting to, it's getting back to that part that I think you lose when you get,

to, because first you start your band or your project, you know, anyone out there listening, maybe they don't do music, maybe they're starting a business, or maybe they're an artist, a painter, or maybe they have dreams of doing, you know, podcasting or TV or whatever. But at first you start because you're naive enough to believe that you can do it and that you might be good at it and that other people might like it. and you're just doing it because you're giving yourself the license to do it and then you do it. But then when you have success at any level, more people come in and more influences come in and they start trying to tell you how you did it and what you should do again and what you should do.

And it all gets overcomplicated. And like what I've learned and now, you know, we're in our 40s and I think we're at this spot in life where we have enough experience to, analyze and go like, I think what I've learned is if you can keep it simple in the process, that's the most important, is that the process of making something is pretty simple. As complicated as it can be in your head, as complicated as it can be when other people get a hold of it, the process of making something is pretty simple. You're doing it. You're creating something because you feel like you need to.

and then you have your own relationship with that. Maybe you like it, maybe you think it's cool, or maybe you hate it, and you need to do it again. But either way, it's a simple relationship you have with what you're making. And then we overcomplicate it when we try to sell it.

Totally, totally. I think the thing that gets tricky for people is they hear ideas about that, and they also can second-game. the chaotic nature of reality of our lives, right? In that, yes, at a deep level, we want to keep contact with simplicity and gut and timing and everything's right. But then there's your actual life, where you have to make choices and they have to be made.

And I have a sort of attitude of when in doubt, do something. because I think the other thing that frees people up is waiting for the perfect moment. And doing nothing. And ultimately, the small choices, they matter and they don't matter. What really matters is moving forward. And so sometimes making the wrong choice, that's the best of the available options, will at least shake up the creative energy and it will propel you further on your path. And I think that people, I guess what you're saying about the overcomplication,

and people overcomplicate the decision-making process when it's kind of like it is that being a good chef, but it's also going, well, what have I got in my kitchen? What can I make today? And that's, I take a lot of inspiration from, I heard this cool thing once, Lena Dunham said, who I like her attitude to the way she makes things.

I like, yeah. And Lena said, find the story that only you can tell and make it with whatever resources are available. Yeah. And I think of that with music too. And I don't want to jump ahead to, I mean, there's so much to cover in a chat between us. Yes, we will a lot.

But you've also very much influenced my thinking in that way, which has led to a lot of the stuff I'm working on now, which has to do with finding the vibe that no one else can communicate. Yes. And then amplifying it. Right. You know what I mean? because we had a good talk once about money, because I always saw you as sort of having a better business sense than I had. And so I was asking you about some things.

And I was sort of almost looking for like shortcuts to making money. Right. As opposed to you were like, well, your best chance of making a lot of money is going to be through where you've made whatever money you've already made, which is through your creativity. Right. And if you're starting to look outside of where you're, you've already got natural momentum.

You're kind of working against yourself. Yes. And I've, over the years, that conversation was a real turning point for the way I think about money. And over the years, I've just increasingly doubled down on my uniqueness. Right. Because I think that is my best shot at making more money. So it's all, you know, it's all this stuff is like, it's delicate, but it's also like,

you just got to get in there and throw some punches and see what happens, you know? Yes. Yes. And, you know, the thing about money that I feel, this is why I love talking to you, we go all over the place, but it's very relevant to every, you know, ultimately what I hope people get when they listen to these conversations is a different perspective on things that they hear all the time. I think when you're, where people are getting their information from now, social media. And it, for me, I feel like it's all very contrived and constructed to generate views. That's not what this is. What I feel this is, is I, like, I have these conversations

with people that I personally want to talk to that I feel their perspective is, is important and good, it's wholesome. It's a good nutritional perspective for someone who's, searching for information. And a lot of times we talk about mental health or we talk about whatever, the things that we all deal with. Money is an interesting one because no one likes to talk about it. But we have to accept,

or I think the first step to success when it comes to money is to own that you want it, accept that you want more of it, believe that you deserve more of it, believe that you should have what you want. Believe that it's a worthwhile endeavor to make more money. I think at the very least, you have to be accepting of it as an evolutionary impulse.

Otherwise, you become like the Catholic Church that like don't deal with sexuality. Right. And they have all kinds of like crazy perversions. It doesn't exist. You've got to accept this is where we are to do something good in the world. You know, capitalism, we can talk about that. Is it good? is it bad is what we've got right now. We're stuck with it. So having the evolutionary impulse

to do good things in the world in whatever system it is, you need some money now. And it's a game we play. And whether you want to say you play it or not, we're all playing it. We all have to pay our rent. We all have to eat. We all have to, we have to. So however you want to make peace with the idea that you're playing that game, you have to make peace with the idea that like the financial part of life is a, if I don't look at it, I don't accept it, I don't want to say that I need money or want money or have aspirations, fine, but it still exists. Yeah, there's a, there's a beautiful phrase that Timothy Leary uses in his interpretation of the Tibetan book of living and dying. And he wrote this as a manual for people tripping on acid, right? And he used this phrase,

what we want to achieve is calm and compassionate game play. playing. Yes. And I love that phrase because I think if you accept it's a game, like you don't have to be over attached to it to play it well. In fact, there's a strong argument that the less attached you are to it, the better you can play a game. Yeah. Because they're the people who can stay calm in moments of stress in chess or tennis or whatever it is. They're also the people we like because what we don't like collectively, I think, as a as a species and as a culture, is people who cheat. Yeah. People who break the rules. people who are bad winners and losers,

people who are, you know, a bad winner is just as bad as a bad loser. You know, everyone hates a bad loser. Totally. We hate bad winners too. People who rub it in your face or chop heads off the minute they win because they don't know how to just take the win gracefully and go, but we love seeing a good winner. And that's why people celebrate people who make a lot of money

who are good winners. And why we all collectively kind of, I dislike people who are bad winners, right, who make us feel bad about ourselves when they win. But we all have our time to win. And what I try to encourage my own kids, my friends, and anyone I get to talk to about life is recognize the games you're playing and learn the rules of the games and then try to be thoughtful about how you win and how you lose. I do the exact same in parenting.

I say to my daughter, you know, if you want to have a straight up conversation about which parts of your syllabus and your homework, I actually think are going to be useful to you. We can do that. Yes. But much more important is that you learn how to operate within a system whether or not you have ultimate respect for it.

While you're in it. Yeah, like I scored a TV show for HBO. The amount of shit I had to learn about labeling files, I can't even tell you. That was the biggest, the hardest thing about scoring a TV show was doing all the files

because they needed stems of everything and there's edits and revisions all that. But that tapped the exact same part of me that learned how to turn in my math homework on time in seventh grade. They're not different. They look different, but you have to be able to pay your taxes.

You've got to be able to not let the car ran out of gas because you're not paying it. You know, it's like, this is how you just do. life. You've got to learn how to do it and then you can transcend it. That's the same conversation I have with my daughter about school. I'm like, listen, I get it. I didn't like it either. I hated school. It was terrible at it. I did terrible in school. I had to go to night school to get the credits to graduate because my mom wanted to see me graduate. So, but I tell her that. I'm like,

but I learned a lot. I know I pay my taxes. I don't let the car run out of gas. I don't let the car run out of gas. I know how to, you know, administratively speaking, I know enough to get by. You're a responsible human being. Yeah. And that's the deal is you got to learn how to live in. I don't care if you go to college. It's up to you. If you want to go to college, great.

We're going to go and try to, you know, well, I'm here to help you figure out what you want to do with your life. But like the basics of life and being a productive, responsible, you know, functional enough human is like, I was like, on my watch, you're going to be at least as functional as I am, which isn't the most functional, but I can get by. I can administrate. So I feel like we probably have the same approach to school with our probably artistic kids. This will be, this is an off-mic conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Noise addict, you start the band, you start, you start trying to play out and then somehow you end up opening for Sonic Youth.

Yeah. So basically there was a street press. We used to have, you know, this is like pre-internet. There used to be this thing called street press. It's basically like village voice. Like every city had their local free papers. And you would pick them up in record stores or vintage stores, whatever. And they'd show you what gigs were on and all of that.

And they had a back page of one of them in Sydney that was an industry. page of like what to do. And so it was like, it was titled something like, so you made a demo. Now what? Yeah. And so I, and so I knew we had to make, even that, I probably didn't know we had to make a demo until I saw that. I was like, oh, okay, they've all made it.

The other readers have made a demo. We got to make a demo. So I got a task scam two four fork and I like, I mean, so delusional. The way we recorded, I thought it was going to sound like appetite for destruction. Yeah. Like I just thought, yeah, you just put a mic in front of, I mean, literally. Like we had the crappers gear, microphones that were like, I mean, just, we had the worst stuff.

It's just stuff that was basically around our houses. But anyway, he made this demo. And what it said to do was pull out all your tapes and CDs and records and write down the addresses of the record labels you like. And then you send them a thing called a bio and a photo. And then you send it in the mail. You call them a week after you sent it and say, hi, did you receive it? and then you call them another week after that and follow up and say,

have you had a chance to listen to it? So basically, I'm just like a good student in a way. I was like, okay, let's do it. This is what you do. So I wrote down and I was really into sort of all the local Sydney indie records and

everything. And so one of the, there was a shop called Waterfront Records and they also put out records and stuff. And I sent it to them. And basically we started getting letters back almost instantly that were like, ha ha, ha, ha, keep going. Not for us. You know,

because it was like, it's been pretty crazy. Crazy. And then, so I called Waterfront, and I was like, hi, this is Ben from Noise Addict, just curious if you received our tape. And this voice comes on the other end, he goes, Ben, your tape stood out like dogs, balls. And that was the start of my career. And they were in the process of starting a little indie labor called Felaheen with this guy, Steve Pav, who was a local promoter, who was kind of bringing out,

through the late 80s into the early 90s like mud honey, my bloody Valentine. But these are like small bands at the time. Bands that would not have toured Australia because it was, I mean,

it's hard for people to imagine now how much bigger the world seemed and particularly regional, even within America, like the idea that now, back then it was like not every band would get to play New York or L. It was like those were missions,

you know? So for Australian bands or cool American men's coming to Australia, it was like aliens landing from another planet. Yeah. But anyway, so this guy, Pav, you know, he got it and he got our tape and he liked it and he played it to Thurston More from Sonic Youth. And so Pav came to one of these little shows we had in a, you know, community center.

It was all seventh graders just sitting cross-legged on the floor watching us. And Pav, like this hipster promoter sitting there. And he just came up to us after and he said, that was really cool. You guys want to support Sonic Youth next week? And that's sort of how that happened. And we spent a day, then it turned out first and wanted to record us in the studios. So we did a day of recording. And yeah, kind of all sort of went from that initial sending that demo tape to the record labels and everything.

You really kind of like start off in the kind of music business, really. And then you go on to sign with Grand Royal. And then the Ben Lee albums come. Yeah. So that was sort of an accent. because I, so I had this relationship with Pav, this promoter. He was like my mentor. Right.

He was like Josh. Yeah. He was like the guy that turns everyone on to things. He knows everything. And you need people like that. Especially older, you know. And so suddenly I had this cool friend that knew good music. And I went to his apartment in Bondi.

And it was like on my stop of the bus on the way home. And he had like thousands of like a vinyl record collection that was just like amazing. And I basically started going around and borrowing 10 to 20 albums every week and taping them and listening obsessively. And it would be like that's where I discovered the Stooges, Jonathan Richmond, Velvet Underground, beat happening, Yolett Tango, like Calvin Johnson, like everything, you know. And then in return, I would bring him tapes of my new songs. Right. And so I was just, I had a Sony boombox and every day I would at least write one song. So basically in a week, if I came on a Wednesday afternoon, I'd bring him a tape of 10 new acoustic songs, you know, that I'd written.

And so there's this amazing sharing happening. And basically, he sent Mike D from the Beastie Boys some one of these acoustic cassettes. And he went on a road trip. And that was right after Liz Faire's album, Exiling Guyville came out. And what's interesting about the time. Okay, so this is what's kind of amazing. I think you had this too where you're basically a creative person and you would have found a way in in whatever era you'd been born into. Right.

Yeah. Having said that, there was an immense luck or synchronicity or something synergy that happened with you coming into the music scene at the moment that you came into where your skill set was actually. the perfect skill set for what was happening. And I had a similar thing where in the early 90s, when Nirvana got big, suddenly they started spotlighting all of this kind of weird bedroom recording music. Yeah, garage. Shona Knife, Daniel Johnson. Then later Elliot Smith came out.

But suddenly it was kind of like the cool shit was like made by freaks in their bedroom. Right. I so happened at that moment to be. a freak making stuff in my bedroom. Right. And so Liz Fares record Exiling Gaver, which had that tone, even though that was done in a studio and everything, it had that same vibe of like, wow, this is this like weirdo who's just making this confessional music and putting it out there, no censorship of herself and

her unconscious and making what she wants to make. Yep. So it all just kind of coalesce where it suddenly like there came this conversation where Mike was like, you should go record with this guy, Brad Wood, who. produced Liz Fair and you should make a record like that. And suddenly I was in this solo career. And what's funny about that with the timing is solo artists like in the early 90s were deeply uncool. Yeah. Like everyone was just bands. Right. It was a band era. Otherwise it was like Michael Bolton. Right. It was literally like you would not have a guy just with his name on the album

cover. Like it was so uncool. So it just sort of was very weird. But it all. But it worked. It worked and it happened. Yeah. And it was a it was a, was, God, it was so crazy in the 90s how different it was, but how, I don't know, when I look back on that time, to me was the, for me anyways, my experience was, it shaped my idea of purity for music, and for some reason it all just seems so pure to me. And now, you know, the last 20 years, what I would say was the real digital age of music when it started to now. And certainly from 2010 on has been really the streaming age. And there's something about that analog of the 90s that was, it just feels so rich.

I'll tell you what else about the 90s and why us having our roots in that culture is helping us now. is because it recognized the value of niche culture. Before there was any way of communicating that besides fanzines, mail order. We bought into niche culture when it truly was a death sentence. Yeah, when it was not. Financially. There would be no way of like, if you were like working in a subculture, you were destined to live underground.

Yeah, underground. But when digital culture came in, suddenly, niche culture was the place to be because you could connect with your brothers and sisters around the world who shared your aesthetic, spiritual, psychological, moral sensibilities. And now you can actually make a living in having a tiny, tiny slice of a very large pie, which is digital culture, where everything exists. And there's a huge need for people who have creative ideas that are, unique. So people are constantly looking for, and listen, this could be good or bad.

People could, there could be a whole debate on, on, you know, the culture, vulture idea of like, we're going to take from niche and put it into mass in a way that people can consume at mass. So there's a whole, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to come from a niche, exist in a niche, and then serve the masses in a way where you could actually financially benefit and you could build something that's valuable. And you could also say, the smaller you keep something for longer, it's more valuable because of the connectivity and the mass. And this is an area where I think we...

The one-of-one idea. What's the one-of-one idea? Like, you know, baseball cards. Okay. Right? Oh, oh, you mean very little. One of one is way more valuable than any of the other cards. So one of five, one of ten, they do all these limited runs.

We live in a time where everybody wants to own the only one of something. And there is something about what I try to also tell creators and people that I, young people that I meet. I also think young people in a weird way, in one way we were up against more than them because it was very hard for us to connect with people. No one over 40 has ever said that before. You know what I mean? Exactly. We walked to school in the snow, right?

A mile in the snow. But metaphorically speaking, we did. We had to send our demos out one label at a time. We did the same thing. We had we wrote up a bio. We had our, I had my sister take a picture of us as a band. Did you photocopy the photo?

Of course. Yeah. And it was so great. So copy. It's terrible. It's cool because it looked like so mysterious. Yes. I can't even make out these guys faces.

Terrible. I look at it now and I just think it's really sweet and cute that we put together our own press kits. And we had a bio, a picture, and a demo. And we had these little stickers made and we put them on the cassette tape. And then we sent them out hundreds of these things. There was a magazine called The Musician's Guide to Touring and Promotion every quarter it would come out. You could go to the bookstore and in the magazine section at like Borders or Barnes and Nobles or whatever. In the 90s, it was like a boarders.

And then there was Sam Goody, and they have magazine section. And there was these, like, these music business magazine that would quarterly come out. And it had all the label addresses, booking agencies, publishing companies. And with the people, you know, at the time who worked there, and we made hundreds of these things. And we sent them out. And, you know, and at the time, we didn't have any money. So we were working jobs, buying supplies. You know, we recorded a demo, which cost us.

In the 90s, too, think about it. You had to rent a studio from the weird guy who had a studio. And then he engineered it. And it was always just like so much work to get things done. But we did it. So in that respect, that was hard when you think about now I'm a kid. I can make music on my laptop in my bedroom, record a really good sounding recording. and then post it on SoundCloud or post it here

and then start promoting it on Twitter. Now, that seems easier, but the volume of noise that they're up against because of this sheer, like the barrier for entry is so much lower to actually make music, put it out, distribute it, promoted. Back in our day, to get to the point where you had the finished demo, it had already weeded out. Weed it out.

All the lazy people. All the lazy scared. Yeah. Lazy scared. Any of that, you're out. So in some respects, it was easier. Yeah. And so we could argue on either side.

We could make an argument on both sides about which is harder, which is easier. But I think that the drive you have to have is the key on both. You know the other thing that like I think is interesting about this whole thing. particularly to do with working in sort of smaller ecosystems, like that I was so influenced by indie labels. And essentially, like, I've had to face the fact, the reality about myself. Because I think part of also having a successful life is being honest about what your values are. Yeah.

And I'm kind of an elitist. Like, I genuinely care about the quality of my audience more than the quantity of them. I like that. And I feel the same with social media. I feel the same with everything. Like if you go to my Instagram account and go through who my followers are, they are fucking smart people with good taste who are making cool shit themselves. I love that.

Those people always liked me. And so I kind of, I've had moments where my career has bubbled up into the mainstream. And I always seize those opportunities. Like I came on the voice with you in Australia. Yeah, that was. Highlight of the voice for me. I did that the same week.

I put out an album called Iowaska, welcome to the work. So like I've not been someone who has been like, you've got to do it the mainstream way. But I've always taken the opportunity to have a big platform when I can. Welcomeed it. But where my actual values are

is I want to, I want to influence people and connect with people that I respect. Right. And I haven't ever had that thing that, you know, where you look out at your audience and you go,

who are these jerks? Look at how they're behaving. I've heard so many artists who have had that and I've come to realize that part of the trade-off with massive success is there's a disconnect with your audience. There can be for sure. It's the masses. It's impossible

that you cannot be catering to a lower common denominator. And that works for a lot of artists and I have a popular streak in me. But I think, again, I've been really grateful for the current period in culture, we're working in a smaller, more deliberate way. You're just able to find your tribe

much easier. And they can be all over the world. And they can be people that you would not, the way they dress, you wouldn't pick them on the street and go, like in the 90s, it was like, are they wearing the right pin? Are they wearing the right converse?

That's the only way you'd find the people. That's how you knew. Now you can connect with them through these different platforms and you can build a really strong crew of people that you resonate with. And then that creates its own opportunities. It's kind of like...

But I want you to also offer the counterpoint because I think you are more innately populous than I am in a sense that I think your taste... So I want to hear your... Because I appreciate when someone counters that intelligently. So I understand exactly what you're saying and I actually think that you embody that. Look, I like to think that I'm one of those smart people

that follows you. So I understand that completely. And I think it's also kind of like that the greatest restaurant in the world that you've been to that everyone's like, hey, when you're there, you should go eat at that place. It's fucking amazing. You know, famous restaurants, right? There's only one of them or two of them in the world. And you go there every time you're, you know, if you're in that city and you get the opportunity, if you can get a reservation, you go there. Yeah.

Right. But if you can't next time, right? There is something about that that is extremely important and special to culture. It leads the way. It's why people aspire to have a restaurant. But you wouldn't necessarily enjoy it if they became, if they said, okay, now we're going to take that place, that famous restaurant that you love going to, that when you get a reservation there, you feel so excited and you go there probably once you're.

Probably once a year with your wife and it's special and you love that meal. And now we're going to go and take it and we're going to put it in every mall. And it's not going to be the same experience and the same food, but it's going to taste kind of like it. And it's going to be a lot cheaper. Well, it's like the economy line of a fashion label or something. So there's somewhere in there is the truth. Right. We know that 99% of people.

cannot go to that restaurant because it's too expensive, it's too far away, it's too hard to get a reservation, it's just too much of all the things we can access. And then somewhere on this line, it's too cheap and it's too accessible and it's actually bad for you. But the difference is, because we're essentially talking about digital content, whether it's music or there is no barrier that actually stops the right people finding the thing. Totally. Right. Food in a restaurant's different because you need the material thing. Right. But I now see it as, there's a reason I don't do Patreon.

Right. I know a lot of artists, podcasts as people who have great success with it. I have an implicit moral issue with paywalling my art. Right. I just don't feel right about it. I like the idea that you should be able to have access to it. If you've gone as far as wanting it and finding it, you should be able to have it. Right.

But I still like the more esoteric gatekeeping of not dumbing down the thing that you're doing so that you naturally weed out the jerks. Yes. Yeah. Because I totally agree. So my perspective is I think I understand every side. I have always felt like you're, as far as who you are as an artist and how you, the choices you make, they always just seem authentic to you.

So I never even, I think that's the, I think that's the real thing, is that you're not lying. So it doesn't, to me, it's like, I don't think you could make a wrong choice if you're being honest because it's authentic to you. So I'm never second guessing when I. Well, maybe that's, maybe that is a more generous way of, I mean, I'm, being humorous saying I'm an elitist. Right. But in a way, I think what I'm saying is I'm going to live my truth.

I'm interested in the people that can handle that. Yes. I'm not interested in the people that can't. If I have to become a different person to impress you, this is not how I want to spend my life. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, it can't work. I feel that I have, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know where we sit today.

you know, I don't know where we sit in, in the spectrum of. When you say weed, do you mean good Charlotte? Good Charlotte. Yeah. But I see you as much, obviously, you're much more than good Charlotte. Yeah. So we do a lot more. We do, we do, you know, Benj and myself and all the things that we do today feel like

very true to who we are in our lives now. And then from the music perspective, I certainly got to have the experience of, I got a really good spectrum of experience. I started, you know, we started with nothing in the garage and we struggled and then, you know, had that late 90s record deal experience, had the, you know, first album didn't do as well as they wanted us to do as they hoped, blah, blah, blah, blah, experience. to, you know, real pop success, global pop success to the roller coaster of then trying to to repeat that and not being able to and then having, you know, a down and then another moment where then we had the, like, likely the biggest song of our career is not necessarily the song we're known for. What was that?

The biggest song we probably ever had was dance floor anthem. Ah, I like that. I said a while. I always remember seeing the video and I'm like, hey. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

Yeah. Collish it up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, having the whole thing and then going into 2011 and essentially falling off and just like, I think giving up a little bit in a moment where streaming was starting on, EDM was flying. And we had just had a decade run of on kind of like a nonstop locomotive. We were just touring 11 months a year.

just going for it and it was a lifestyle. Then hitting like 2010 where it felt like from a music perspective, no one wanted to touch us because we had just been, I think that happens every decade. You're like unless you find ways to be super creative and keep staying in the current, you know, musical taste of what's going on, which I think we had lost our way with, with I think creatively we needed to stop and we just didn't know that we thought we had to keep making

music you don't stop because why would you ever let go of this opportunity because it felt a little bit like that once we grabbed onto it and coming I think a lot of that had to do with poverty and I think there's a there was a lot of things we couldn't unpack and put in their places I was like the Jay Leno thing of like you're like I'm never touching the tonight show money I do stand up to like keep, like, and he's in that Seinfeld movie comedian where he's, Jerry Seinfeld's just like, I think you're okay now. You don't have to keep, but it's hard. But it's hard to separate all that.

Yeah, I have that not necessarily with money. We were like lower middle class, whatever, but it wasn't with money, but I have it with just creative spirit. Like I'm scared to stop because I don't want to lose my connection to my enthusiasm. and inspiration. And I think the idea of taking genuinely taking time out. I think I almost, that's when I was doing a lot of like spiritual exploration and cults and all that.

Because I think that was the only way I gave myself permission to actually take a breath. Right. I wasn't, I didn't feel entitled to like really take space. Right. It's very hard to do when you are, it's funny because there's actually a very intense humility that I think people like

you and I who have had to fight. for our careers have in that we don't want to lose it. Because it's been the great gift of our life. And absolutely, it feels like a gift. The truth is, is we've had to work really hard. But we're also guys that are kind of unassuming. So when you look at me or look at you, you're not going to go, oh, that's a serious business guy right there.

All he does is you look at us and go, that guy looks fun. I would like to hang out with him. Now, there's something about that that's great. But then we're also, you know, two men providing for families, building lives, doing the things that every, you know, I think that sometimes we get dismissed in, not in music maybe. You know, in music, we're in our element. So you could go into any music room, any party that's full of. artists and entertainers. You know, we choose to live in an ecosystem of artists and musicians and entertainers because it's actually more comfortable for us because people take us seriously.

But then when you go outside of that and you go to the world at large, you're getting a non-reel, what I think is you're getting feedback that's not real. Where are you going? When are you leaving the ecosystem? Like, I think when you go into the world at large, I think when you go into the world at large. When you go buy a car or what? Where is this? I don't know.

When you're like in, you know. I'd like to know how many times Joel Madden is leaving the bubble. I leave the bubble all the time, Ben. I leave the bubble all the time. I think I'm, you know, now, no, but now I don't, I don't because I understand like, like I exist in a world that I create. Right. And I choose the people that I spend time with.

And I don't need to worry about what anyone else thinks of what I'm doing with my life. Yeah, and it's community. I mean, I look at that too. Like, you know, this town is full of interesting, successful people. Yeah. They're not all people I actually want to hang out with. I'm happy to have them from a distance and go, great work. Love your Netflix show.

Fantastic. Pass them on the shoot. Yeah. But then there's people that you like vibrate with. Yeah. And you're just like, welcome home, baby. You know, like, I've got. this new song I've just been recording. I'm making a new album and I've got this song called Friends

with Freaks. When's the album coming up? I'm finishing it today or tomorrow. So later in the year. But this song Friends with Freaks is just about, you know, it's all about I'm only friends with freaks. I like to kiss them on both cheeks. Like it's all about they exist in space as others fall apart. All my friends are freaks making love between the sheets. You know, ring. That's my someone's on the front floor. Sorry. Who is it? Tell me.

Let's check it out. This is exciting. Ring is such a game changer. I know. It's here. Someone in a yellow raincoat. Okay. So, yeah, anyway, I don't know.

I'm like misquoting my own lyrics, but the point of it is, like, I like to meet my kind of freaks. Yeah. You know, they're like the people. I like brave, vulnerable. kind, ambitious, creative people, you know, because there's a lot of people who are on the edge culturally, but I don't necessarily feel emotionally safe with them for a relationship or a friendship.

And then there's a lot of people I feel very safe with, but they don't challenge me. They're not adventurous enough, you know? So you're just looking for those people who just you vibrate with. And I really believe this is something I'm so grateful to, for social media because, you know, there's a lot of younger artists particularly. And actually, you guys were the first time I experienced this where because I was 14 when I came into the music industry, all those bands that I became peers with like pavement,

sepado. And they came up through like 80s hardcore and indie music and had a different attitude to culture. It was a much meaner time, I think, at that time to come up. And insular. It was very insular. You were handcuffed to a scene. Totally. And I'll never forget.

I think me and Benji, he came to a show I did at the 930 club and we went and we after having some drinks after at the bar. And he said, my favorite songwriters are you, Morrissey and Tim Armstrong. And I was like, this is a new generation. This is changing. The idea that you would mention those three out. And that attitude preempted streaming culture. where now everyone's like that.

Now no one gives a fuck what genre. There's no tribalism at all, you know? And I think that's the thing. When I started meeting artists who were not subject to the sort of chains, the tribal chains of scenes that I had come up assuming everyone was part of, I was suddenly like, you know, like that's when I started getting into like when I did Ripe and everything. And I was like, yeah, Benj, come play guitar.

Mandy Moore is going to sing. The Watkins family are going to be on. on it. If you're a cool person, I'm good with you. You know what I mean? And that suddenly, like, I'm so grateful that the world's opened up because that little, that thing of that, the snobbiness of, um, just too many rules about who you can hang out with and what they have to be into. What that is like that is the side of elite, elitism that I, it's always rubbed me the wrong way. Right. That was the, that was what I'd say was the bad side of, of, of, of, of, you know, the 90s was, you know, and we still dealt with it early in our career when we were

kind of coming up in the punk world, right? You could argue all the different, you know, subgenres of punk and all the, all the ways we were and weren't punk, we're always in dispute. But we always, we grew up on it and punk and hip hop were our, you know, that was the, that was the 90s for it for me. and then coming up but wanting and reaching for what we wanted was global success. We wanted to be big. In our mind, being big was selling a lot of records and selling, you know, and playing arenas and headlining festivals.

That was our, I would say that was our first set of dreams, you know, that we were working towards. And that was a struggle in the early 2000s. in the punk world that it was still there a little bit because the bands were older and they had come up in a very mean and you know me analyzing it they came up in a very mean world where people were mean to them and then they learned to be mean to the bands that came behind them right and i think that was just the way it was it was like all divided by genres like generational trauma yeah exactly music and so the bands were fucking mean to us and it was tough and you know we weren't punk enough

for them, but we weren't really fully a pop group. But we were, you know, and we didn't know what we were doing in the beginning. So we were, you know, I remember that first album. We had all these pictures that I, I don't cringe because I look at them now as a, as a father. And I go like, good for those guys. They were trying their best. They were really doing, coming from some hayseed ass place, some podunk place to the big

gas music industry and they felt they had to be bigger and be larger than they were. And so they tried. And that was their, that was them trying. And you look at those early photos, they're super polished and they were wearing, there was a stylist there that was like, oh, these are punk clothes. And, you know, we were punk kids, but that for us coming up, punk was like, we were at a thrift store buying whatever we could have pulled together. Yeah. And, and then it was like, there was suddenly a big photo shoot and a big stylist and a big video and everything was polished and everything was shiny. And it was, but it was very reminiscent of what was big at the time, which I kind of like now

looking back in that way. But I also like seeing that like these young guys, there was no parents involved, there was no adults involved. We found our way into the music business at 1920. And then we were trusting these people who were being nice to us and friendly to us. And some of them were that nice and friendly and good people. ethically speaking, you find out later, they fuck you over. But it's the story.

It's the tale of someone reaching for their dreams, working and then getting there. And then finding out it's not such a nice place to be. It's not like you get there and everyone in the music industry is rooting for you. even if they're being nice when they meet you. We were very innocent in that way. What you saw was what you got as far as like, like, we, we came from a small place and had not had a lot of experience. Hadn't been on a plane until we got flown out to L.A., you know, for music.

So it was, you know, I didn't fly on a plane until I was 19. So it was interesting because having that experience, and then the rude awakening of success and all it's the things you have to manage. What we don't talk about with success is it's not like, oh, then you make it with your music and everything's better. Now, if you don't actually deal with that in yourself and figure out that and love yourself, for me, it's all like, I think it's just self-love. It's just working on loving yourself.

You only get to be you. You don't get to be anyone else. That's it. Learn how to love yourself and then learn how to imagine the best version of yourself. It starts with loving yourself. It starts with accepting yourself. It starts with believing in yourself. We both had enough of that to start bands and try to make it.

But you know what's cool that we're both involved now in different forms of mentoring or development. And, you know, we have our little podcast network and all this kind of stuff. And I think it's interesting because I came up on artist run labels. Yeah. You didn't have that, but you had a similar thing of realizing that within the community, there was a lack of nurturing. Yeah. Right?

You felt a hostility backstage at the festival or wherever it was. Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel that. I felt a lack of emotional maturity on the part of artists that were helping younger artists. But I now look back and I go, Sonny Keith and the Beastie Boys were in their 20s when I was on their label. That's insane. We're now in our 40s and going like, and we're parents. You start like looking out for people in different ways.

And I think one of the things that is really, I'm really working on with everything I'm doing. you know, not necessarily my personal career, but whether I'm producing another artist or whatever it is, I'm really looking out for their emotional well-being. Yeah. In a way that was not part of the culture or the dialogue back then. Yep. And what you just said of,

I actually listened to, because when I was coming here, I was like, I want to listen to a couple of your episodes and I was listening to the new one, the guy, the chase of line. What does he play?

The guy on the new one. Is he the drama? He's a guitar player. He's a guitar player. And yeah, he writes a song. songs. I mean, the three of them write all the songs together. But the way you were advising him about listening to his gut is when I was being mentored by

artists, people weren't saying that to me. They were like, it was about making good choices. You know what I mean? And I think that fundamental respect that you had for a younger artist is going to be part of what he carries forward. And then the way he, when, you know, all goes well. I think inevitably in your career you get to a point where you start paying it forward and you start helping the next generation. And I just think like this missing piece to do with emotional well-being and real integrity, not just being perceived to have integrity. But to have real integrity. Yeah, because integrity is often used in the music industry of like, do they only work with good people? Do they, like, like you could say there's tons of artists who are like the coolest of the cool.

Right. You could say, wow, their career has a lot of integrity. Yep. Because they're only working with the hippest people. Yeah. But are they only working with good people? Because that, to me, is real integrity. When you're like, I only want to surround myself by good people, you know,

and I think that this is a new, this is a new part of the conversation in the music industry. I'm going to do that too. I totally agree. Oh, yeah. Psychedelic water, baby. Not even a, not even a sponsor. Just my favorite. We're still only hundreds and hundreds of years from actual killing bears and running from things that were a physical threat to us.

So we're not that far away from it, DNA-wise. I think what people don't give credit to is our actual human nature. It's not fully something that we control. But then in a cerebral way, especially in digital, because we're all writing and talking to each other, we're communicating more than ever. but we're not giving credit to our DNA. Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. And I think that this comes back to the kind of artists that I'm interested in overall.

Like, I actually find perfect careers a little uninspiring. I like seeing the humanness. I like people that take big swings and miss sometimes. And you're like, look at you. Good one, you know? And it's like, because again, it takes me back to that seeing Nirvana on a stage and why was that different to sing Motley Crew on a stage? There was something fundamentally different and it was the humanity. It was the fact that I sensed real human beings up on a stage and it wasn't perfect, but it blew the doors off everything for me.

And I've met a lot of people. I used to be really precious with every project, kind of like, you know, it'd be like every album. I was like, this is the one. It's got to sum up everything that I've got to say and everyone's got to love it. And it's like I wanted every hour I put out, my dream would be like okay computer level praise from just everybody. You know what I mean? You just want to be embraced by mommy and daddy basically. That's all you're looking for.

Yes, good job. Exactly. Good job. But now I kind of go, wow, I've met so many artists that don't even like connect to. with my music that much, but they like the way I've done my career. Yeah. And that shows you that it's actually the human psyche. It's the humanity.

It's your intention and your energy. And it's the way you dance more than the particular dance you're doing that is what inspires people. I actually think with you, there's something about being comfortable in your own skin that I think personally anyway. But I do think that this is, I think a lot of people struggle to just be comfortable with who they are. It's hard to explain, but I know I struggle with it for a long time. And I think I just started getting it these last few years where I was like, you know what, this is me.

I just can't be anything else. It comes with the receding hair line. Yeah. As soon as you like, you know, it just happens, man. It's like what you can't battle. The great thing about aging is unless you take the, tact of, okay, I'm going to stay looking 20 forever. And there's hell of a lot of people in this town who are doing that. But the town for it. The rest of us who are kind of going, wow, I'm a mortal

being. I am on my way out. I am dying. That's why I'm getting wrinkly. That's why my hair's falling out. It's because I am a mortal human being. There's a beautiful humility that comes with that and self-acceptance, which might be some of what that is. It's great. Yes, like a great Aging gracefully is really, it feels strong. When I see people aging gracefully and it's like they just seem classy to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? It just seems class.

Like when I think of class, when I think of like, what do I want to grow up to be? You know, when I look at, I look ahead at people that I think are classy. And like, I think that it's the age to age with grace and just to feel, But you are one of those people, I think. And maybe you think it's with age, but I think from a fan perspective of someone who's actually been a fan from the beginning, was interesting if you think about like you're talking to one of your fans that's been there from the start, which is cool. You've always kind of come across to someone who's comfortable doing what they're doing

and come along if you want. It's okay if you don't. It's, I think, the vibe you get at your house or at one of your parties. Same thing. Come on. Be yourself. You've always had that. As elitist as I think you could say, you are, because I get that and you are in your taste

and probably in a lot of your, the way you exist as an artist. I think it's a natural, you come from a naturally a place where you are interested in what you're interested in, and that's that, right? As a person you have, there's a warmth to that, that it really invites everyone in. Yeah, thank you for saying that. And that is, again, that links back to the issue with paywalling or that type of approach in that, for me, giving everyone the invitation is crucial. So I'm not an elitist in the sense that when I'm throwing a party, everyone's invited, but I want to play to the people that want to come.

Exactly. So that's the difference. And I'm not going to beg anyone to come. And I'm not going to block anybody that really wants to be there. I agree. And but I want people to come with the right intention and the right reasons and to be open. You know what I mean? Like I value openness.

Yep. And I value, yeah, just warmheartedness. And I think that is, that's probably my favorite. artist of all time is Jonathan Richman. And he's someone who, you know, he's the modern lovers. I mean, a lot of people that would know your music wouldn't realize a band like the modern lovers, how integral they were to punk. Like the sex pistols covered them.

I mean, they were like the originators. And he ended up leaving the band because they were too loud. And he still plays very quietly. He only played in nursing homes and kindergartens for a long time. which is so punk. Yeah. You know? And that is kind of like the spirit of like, I have this thing when I play live where I don't like when I go to a show and you can see the people that know the music are having more fun than the people that don't know the music.

I like shows that are like parties where if you come in in the right head space, it's there for you. And yeah, there is rewards and Easter eggs and for the train spotters, you know, the people are, oh my God, that's a deep cut. But you should still be trying to communicate in that way like a preschool teacher. You're like, let's do this, guys, you know? And that wholesomeness and that openness is like built in to what I think my vision of like good art should be. It's just there for you. Yep.

Who's your favorite artist to hang out with? Um, like as a friend like, yeah, I mean, I have different people I connect with in different ways. Like there's this, uh, you know, the last few years I've made friends with quite a lot of younger artists like Shamir and Georgia Mack who's from this band camp cope, like, where I felt a very like kind of spiritual thing where it's just like you're meeting like another group of people that are like deep peers, you know, um, of older artists. you know, like Money Mark. Yeah.

I always feel like he, from when I met him, it was really like him and Adam Yalk were the people in that scene that I felt the most like emotionally connected to. And Mark, I still see a bunch and I really like, really like him. There's this guy Justin Stanley who I've been working with on my records last few years who's, he used to be Mark Runcson's production partner. He's married to Nika Costa, you know, the singer. And he's been like co-producing and engineering for me about it.

And he's someone I feel a very just easygoing musical thing with. Anytime I get to play with the Watkins family, like Sean and Sarah Watkins, their brother and sister, they do a lot at Largo. And I always feel like this isn't even a hanging thing. This is like a musical thing. Right. To interact musically with me. I feel like they are like, like when I play, if they're singing with me and playing with me,

it's like church. Right. or what I'm Jewish. I haven't been to many churches, but it's what I imagine church to be like. So there's people like that that I have these musical, like this deep gratitude for who I can make like musical magic with. Right.

And then there's just like cool people that over the years that have like given me, I view like I've taken valuable lessons from them. Yeah. Like I always tell this story of like Zoe Dashnell is someone who kind of blew my mind when I first met her because she wasn't yet, you know, she was like this quirky actress and singer. Yeah, yeah. There was not a path forward that was clear to anybody, you know?

And we went out for breakfast at a diner and so on, and she was just like, I think there's a lot of room at the top. And yes, that is the result of a certain type of privilege in that there is, not that you get an easier way in, it's not like a nepo baby thing, but it's more like, you've seen that it's possible, so you believe that it's possible. And I do think one of the systematic, unfortunate injustices in our society is that if you're not exposed to certain realities, you'll never know they exist. You don't know they exist. And even if you have a hint of it, like, whoa, I want to communicate. If you don't have an example, it's very, very hard. But anyway,

so I view everybody, like there's even people who I don't, I haven't stayed super close to, but I've just been affected by it. Yeah, just been affected in deep ways, you know, deep ways. And I draw courage from them because, you know, as you go on with your career, basically anyone who keeps doing it, you're just like right on. You know, I know how it is. We are in the same boat. I think you appreciate what it means to continue, right?

I think it's just an appreciation for what it takes to be, to stick around. and then to also be authentic while you're doing it and find your own way. And so the different paths I get to see the last 25 years I've gotten to see so many people on their different paths. Some people are just still in a big band and they've been big the whole time I've known them and they've just keep chugging along on that. Some people went off and started a coffee company and this person went off and did this. Everyone's just doing all these different things and to see creative people

navigate life to me is interesting versus non maybe someone with a less creative approach. Like I find that creative people, when they apply creativity to all problems, they come to solutions that are interesting. Yeah. And there's also like that thing, which I know you've got in your life too, that there's a deep inspiration you take from people that are further ahead on the path. And there's a deep inspiration you take from people that. that are just starting out and everywhere in between.

And yeah, I just think there is, you know, one of the creative relationships in my life that has been really big for me is I did this project with the writer Tom Robbins, who wrote Jitterbug perfume, even Calgo's Got the Blues, like American literary giant, you know, now in the, you know, the final chapter of his experience as a human, he's an old man. And, you know, I wrote to him,

out of the blue when I was, I think, 30 and proposed a project to work on together. And he said yes. And he was already at that point, I think, in his maybe early 80s. And that's the type of energy I want to have in my early 80s. Like I hope an Australian kind of snoddy upstart writes to me when I'm in my 80s and is like, you want to do something together? And I'm going to be like, hell yeah, that's fun. And I've, I like, that's become part of, that's now something I've seen is possible.

Yeah. That he never let go of that creative spirit. And I've heard you talk about like your father-in-law that way, you know, like, it's, you got to see. And sometimes you meet people and they almost become cautionary tales. Yes. For, um, who I don't want to end up like that. I got to like be careful to be on guard against becoming bitter or becoming some feeling that I missed out on mine. and that you're constantly recounting stories of the one that got away or something, you know.

But you got to look at these, you got to look at the pioneers, you got to look at the young people and you've got to look at your peers and just be like, wow, we're all humans and we can learn from each other. What I've learned too is been in the room with so many people that in different, like you said, different stages of their careers. And also just like different talents and different like icons. in their own rights and legends in their own rights. And I've been, I've been, I've been kind of fortunate enough to just be around. When we're in the room, there should be room for everyone

that's in the room. And I think that when you make room for the young kid who you, who, you may not know who that person is, but if they're in that room, they're there for a reason. Like in my mind, nothing happens on accident. Like, that's the, the spiritual side of life is the thing that we can't, we can't connect all the dots right now while we're together. But I know that our paths are crossing for a reason. But I think you, you guys all share that. That must be a family value because, you know, we had a party recently that Josh came to. I was going to ask you about that party.

Yeah, so we threw this party for Amel and the sniffers because I'm very like. I love them. Yeah, they're awesome. So when I first came to L.A. from Australia, it was quite, it was quite hard as an it's hard for anybody when you land in L.A. Yeah. But Australians are just like, oh, it's so overwhelming. They don't know their way around.

They don't know they have to have a car. It's just like a kind of a nightmare. So I try and just do, and when I started coming, it was like Rose Byrne, Heath Ledger, Missy Higgins. Like we were all, you know, just doing our thing and everything. And you'd get together and have barbecues and Aussies would welcome each other. So I just tried to carry that tradition forward. So, you know, I'm friends with Amy Taylor and they were coming.

I was like, let us throw a party for you. And so anyway. But long way of getting to this, but Josh came, your brother. Yep. And he sat and it was quite a like quite a cool crowd. Right. I heard it was a good. Yeah, good party.

And your brother just sat and talked to my mother-in-law for like an hour and a half to I own his mom. And he clearly had that feeling of like, this is the person who's sat down next to me. Yeah. And she's in front of me right now. Let's talk. And he wasn't angling to get in like a more glamorous conversation. And I just felt like that ability to genuinely embrace what's in front of you and assume that there's some, who knows, whether there's a cosmic meaning to it or whether you can impart a cosmic meaning by participating. I just think that is a very noble and admirable quality that you guys have.

Yet so very normal. My wife says it to me all the time. She's like, you're so chatty with. Not in a critical way. Not in a critical way. But I think in every couple, there's dynamics to who the couple is, who plays what role in what way. And the combinations are endless. There's only one person who goes around to meet the new neighbors. Right. And that's me. That's probably, yeah. Yeah. I'm the guy who we go to the, we stop to get the, you know, if we're traveling and we stop to get food somewhere or like, I'm meeting people out in the world.

Like, I'm chatty. Like, I'll just. chat with anyone if the moment arises. It's not that I'm out there looking to have conversations with everyone, but you know, you strike up a conversation with a nice guy at a restaurant or a gas station or wherever we are. And I like meeting people when I'm out in the world, when I'm traveling through the world. What's the point of going to another country and not experiencing the culture and the people? If we're not out there, it's just like chatting it up. And it's something that I think my wife, it's not that she's not chatty or she doesn't want to meet people. I think she's a, I think she experiences the world in a different way. I think that

that we all have our experience, right? We all have, uh, uh, and I think we also have our comfort like level of like how comfortable are we with strangers. But she grew up in LA. She grew up in LA. It's so different. My wife grew up in LA too. And it's not, it's not neighborly like that. It's not a city in the way that you are forced into interactions with people. And I think what we're talking about is more like. What Ozzie's do, which is similar to me, I think because I came from a small town, that's how you survive in the world, is you make your way and you ask people for directions. And you ask people where you can find this and you make friends.

And then everywhere you go, if you have friends, I always tell my kids, make friends everywhere you go. And everywhere you go, you'll have friends. right it sounds stupid but there's something to that that i've always done is like everywhere i go i make a friend i it's just natural i it first time i was in australia 2000 made a ton of friends because everyone's so friendly i'm like isn't this place great everyone's friendly it's now it's it ended up becoming like a home away from home and it really did it really has it become like a part of the fabric of like my life uh Australia is it's just a Yeah, you have a very special relationship.

Special relationship. I think it was, but I think it was a serendipitous kind of synchronicity to the time that I, the time I went there in my life was in my early 20s. I had not traveled many places. It was the first country I'd went to outside of North America. It's similar enough. It's similar enough. So you felt you weren't totally having culture.

The language. And everyone. was friendly. Yeah. And everyone, and as big as Australia can be, and you could say Sydney or wherever, you can still stop people on the street, ask them where something is. They'll still take the time to help you. It's just one of those places. There's a real neighborly, and I think it was just at that time in my life, and that was the first place I'd went that was like exotic, but still like I could connect with the people, that it like seared an impression in my brain of like what the rest of the world was. was like. And I think that's why Australia became so important to me. But I also think that

we connected with people in Australia because we came from a smaller place where people did take the time to have manners, say thank you and please. And anyone who acted a certain way was an asshole. And anyone, you know, we were, we were, there was a, there's a community aspect to Australia where like they say like the tall poppy thing I get that that I get where that comes from it's a community of like like connected people and it's that's exactly it and that's part of the the good side of that like the top for people that don't know tall poppy is like they say they cut off the heads if you go too tall yeah but the good side of that is you are expected to be decent a decent member of a community and that's partly it becomes a peer

pressure that can actually lead to good things in that artists there, it's a small community. If you're an asshole, you are not, you're going to meet every artist at a festival sooner or later. And that's part of like why I then have that approach of like, oh yeah, okay, I am a successful artist that lives in Los Angeles, but I'm also an Australian and I'm a member of the Australian in music community. And if you come here, I'm going to do my job, not for everybody, because there are people that I don't, I'm like, you stay away from me.

But basically, some people don't want it. They're not open to it. But I generally feel that like, it is my job to host in a way that like, it's the same as like working with Young Grades. You just, you've, you've walked a certain path and you're like, hey, let me ease the road for you a little bit. Just so you have, when you come back, you've got one person in your phone to call. Exactly.

Because otherwise, you're going to be. you're in LA making a record. All you know are people from the label. And then you're out drinking with your own band. And it's this thing where you're like stuck in this thing. I was like, hey, come to a party.

We'll throw a party for a few people. You'll get five people's numbers who you like. And you've now got friends in LA. And it's that easy. Yeah. It's like it's a real, it's a real, I think,

a right of passage. And I think it's a real kind of unsaid rule of what you do if you're decent. It's passing it down. It's paying it forward, but really you're teaching them how they're going to also. It's a generational thing too. If someone hadn't done it for you, you wouldn't be doing it for them. And if you weren't here doing it for them, they're not going to be doing it down the road. And it really does help people and make people's lives easier. And you could say it's not just when they get to L.A. It's, L.A. is a doorway into a world. that's that's full of opportunity for people who who want to be successful in a creative

yeah i mean people don't realize i think for people like you and me who have this impulse to support others and welcome like how many artists have you had half an hour phone conversations with just to like be there for them yeah it's something you let you allow time in your life for that you always and i natural and i it's so many young artists are like, wow, no one's ever taken the time to like just, even just relate and be like, oh, we're being offered this thing. What do you think? And just to have someone there that can be just like a voice of reason who's got no skin in the game. And it's basically like, oh, yeah, I've been there too. Watch out for that and that. But follow your gut. Basically,

all you end up saying is follow your gut. Follow your gut. That's how you got here. Yeah. But watch out for that, that and that. They didn't tell you about that part. I'm going to tell you about it now. Watch out for that. And how many, you meet so many young artists who are like afraid to disappoint their managers. And I was like, listen,

you're doing a lot more for this person than they're doing for you right now. You're like, like the big, the big kind of thing that I always tell artists is like, listen, it takes a team. 100% you want to build a team. We win in groups.

There's no doubt. So managers, labels, I'm not saying that any of those are bad. But when you get a bad version, it's bad. When you get a good version, it's good. Be thoughtful and mindful about how you feel about someone. If you're choosing a manager, if you're choosing a label, if you're entering into any partnership, we win in partnership. But if we feel bad about the person in our gut entering into the partnership and we're doing

it because we feel good about the money or we feel good about the track of the money, or we feel good about the track record that they we have to feel good about the person first and then we can do the math on everything else if I can't if you can't sit comfortably with someone and you and imagine a future where you're building something together you got to stop it right there there's a couple phrases we come back to one is like say making stuff curating stuff celebrating stuff yeah that's what you want to do and then making cool shit with cool people and that's it And as long as those are our founding principles of like how we make decisions and it's felt really healthy to like hold firm to those as a value system.

And I think that is the core as something's growing to have something to come back to and be like, we know why we're doing this. It's because of there are fundamental beliefs about the value we can add to the world through this or add to our community and just, yeah, holding firm on that. but my next record is going to be, I'm excited for you to hear it. It's a, I've kind of haven't shared anything about it yet.

So it's, but it's a, it's a reflective album. Mm-hmm. That is full of piss and vinegar. Like it's about, it's actually, it's a record made by someone clearly

in their mid-40s, but it feels more like a record that a 14-year-old should be making, that like, it is full of, energy and reflection and passion. And that's part of what I got from Tom Robbins.

Growing older, but not losing touch with that spirit. And this record's kind of all about it. The moment I'm calling the album, this one's for the old heads. I'm gonna'amena. And like my music, my hair can't be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine,

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It also kind of feels a little comprehensive. Like, it sounds like you're drawing on like

a bunch of different things you've learned in stages through the stages of your career. But I think the

the the success of you in this stage in your life is really cool to see it's a very dynamic kind of success, in my opinion. It's success in marriage. It's success in living, living well, being happy. room there's room to grow but we've come this far and we've learned a lot we know what we know but then we're excited about the future seeing you at this stage you've always been you've always struck me as a very happy person who's who's really in touch with you know how they feel but

there is something about this stage of your life watching you from from the outside that feels it's a different kind of success. It's a lot richer. Yeah, it feels like that to me too. And it's not quantifiable. Right. It's hard to put it. It's just I'm doing what I want to do.

And again, to go back to that Lena quote, I'm telling stories that are my stories to tell. And I'm doing it with the resources available. And that's really, I think, as a creative person, how you have to judge success. All these things that make you, unique and special. It's a part of who you are. If you weren't a great guy today and a special person today, you just wouldn't be, in my opinion. But that is just a rich, special, great story

that like captivates my imagination. At the end of the day, every new thing I start, every new album, every new song I write, every new something is built on the muscle memory of me going, that happened. Yeah. That can happen. That's where we started. The fact that that happened for me altered the course of my entire existence because I saw with my own two eyes what's possible, unlikely as it is, from a concept.

And what a great story. Like, it's how you want the movie to start. I always tell artists this when they're going through a hard time or they're at their, wherever they are, what part of the movie are you at? Which part of the movie are you on? Yeah. You know, and how do you want it to, how do you want it to go? But I always think that you're, where you started in Australia being such a special place to me, but, but musically, such a rich place that never really, I feel like it never gets the credit for the kind of musicianship that comes out. of it because it's such a humble culture. No one's big uping themselves. But like if you can't play, you cannot make it in Australia. If you can't play music, you can't even say I'm a musician.

I mean, there's a, the level of musicianship that it tends to be, you know, over here doesn't matter. We certainly like respect when someone's good. But plenty of people can come up not being. you know, not being able to play anything and they can find their way to great success. There's more of a culture machine in America. Yeah. I, I am busting to pee. I was just about to wrap it up. That's a great way to wrap it up. But I was going to say that. Like, like, I think that it's always just been kind of a legendary tale. But then to know you personally and to know the person that you are, the warmth that you have, the life. that you've built with your wife and the life you live.

It's really cool to, as a fan, it's just cool to watch you move through the world. Well, I mean, right back at you. For me, I got to witness the origin story. Dude, you were there at the 930 Club, opening for Cracker. I saw it and I then went in for a meeting at Epic a year later and you were having little things had just come out. And it was like, I saw the video and I was like, those are those guys. And I've gotten to watch your trajectory. Yeah, it's funny. I can't tell you how many people I've said, never count those guys out. Never underestimate them. Because, you know, you have that

thing that is, I just know you will not stop until you have fully explored what it is that you want to experience it's a good way of putting it and that appetite for life is it's the driving force behind every great experience yeah dude well thanks for coming love you man thanks for having me thank you for listening to artist friendly thanks to ben lee for being here and i will see you guys next time preemie on gas i love my engine if that's my kind i don't want no bad times I don't want to have bad