Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Benji and Joel Madden

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

In a conversation with Alternative Press Editor in Chief Anna Zanes, Benji and Joel Madden reflect on the different eras of Good Charlotte — and what has allowed them to create enduring businesses, as well as maintain longevity as musicians. “I think that the idea that always comes to my mind about everything that we do or have done — the theme of what injured us, what we thought was our weakness, what our trauma was — always ends up being our strength,” Joel says of the band. Check out the Fall 2023 issue of Alternative Press for this episode's companion cover story. This issue also comes with three alternate collectible covers featuring Scowl, Yves Tumor and Poppy, as well as stories on Jean Dawson, Shapel Lacy and Toby Morse, Genesis Owusu, and more.  ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Video Editor: Ryan Schaefer Sound Engineer/Audio Production: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is a special episode of artist-friendly. Today, myself and my brother Benji, will be sitting down with the editor of AP Magazine, Anna Zanes, and we'll be talking about Good Charlotte and lots of other things. Let's go. These are the phases that I see. Okay. Okay, so it's like what were the initial, like, inspirations and the things that informed you? And that doesn't necessarily mean positive things. It could mean like negative things too.

So it's like, or not negative. Like maybe not that word. Challenges. Painful. Yeah. Lessons. So there's that. Like, and that comes across it like I think throughout the entire journey for any human,

especially creatives and like those things, things that you saw that maybe made you want to be musicians or artists or that informed you visually. And like inspirations and things that informed you are also different. And then there's the things that shaped you. And that maybe comes along later. And then that also looks different in different phases. And then there's the things that drive you and that continue to drive you. And I think for people with such a diverse career like both of you, that changes too.

Especially when you take breaks from certain things and you get into different things. And then also like the way I see you guys now is like you do a lot of service. Like you work with artists and like you're giving. back. And that is like kind of a full circle thing. So I kind of want to, those are like the different phases that I see. And I've talked to a bunch of artists about this. And I feel like you guys more than most people like have a lot of chapters. So I'm curious about those things. Well, I think that the idea that always kind of comes to my mind about everything that we do or have done.

The theme of what injured us, what we thought was our weakness, what our trauma was, always ends up being our strength. And I think the thing that I would like underscore the purpose. So when you think about us now being of service to artists, it's only because in the early stages of our career, we felt a need for someone to teach us, protect us, tell us the truth, which we couldn't find often. So now if you look at the purpose behind MDDN or any of the businesses that we're, that we've, you know, the artist focused businesses that we have, there's a real, there's a real value system around that.

And I would say the simple idea of, let's, when we started MDDA and it was, let's be the guys we wish we would have met when we were 18 coming into this, this business in this world. And let's be honest. Everything that we've invested, everything we've invested in in the last 10 years has been with that idea has been, can we invest in making the industry, our surroundings. roundings, anything that we're a part of, can we find people that feel the same way that think this is a good idea, that think that, oh yeah, that actually, you know, that's maybe more the way things could be and then sort of working together to try and build things that feel that way. And then invite the industry to participate in the honesty. And regardless of what you've done in the past, there is in a real world and a real place.

people should be given the opportunity to change, to grow, and to do the right thing. So when I look at, I mean, just today I was talking to someone, I saw a deal for a band, and it was an old deal they signed, and it was terrible. Someone gave them, you know, a very small amount of money to own half their publishing. That's wrong. We shouldn't do that. It doesn't matter that there should be, there should, the deals, the, the, the deals, the modern record deals and deals people make with artists should reflect the true cycle of an artist,

which is they grow and it becomes more valuable. And when it does, you know, I think there's finding the balance of people are investing in artists. The artists need to know that too. They need to know how much it costs to build these careers. But then there needs to be transparency on both sides. And when things grow, things should change. Some fairness to like, yeah, okay, you invest this. So yeah, get your investment back.

plus plus, plus. That's fine. But perpetuity, that word, you know, all the things that where it's like, okay, so you get this investment forever and ever, you know. It doesn't reflect a real business. No real business behaves that way. It also doesn't allow for people to have longevity to build things that, you know, I think like any other business, like to build things that you want to stay engaged with that you don't lose your your you're your you're sort of drive and you're sort of like so deflated that you actually think you're not good at something when really if you look at anything out there that that that creates a cultural moment or that creates that has a moment that's you know that strikes people it's really not a fluke it's actually people have a special

quality, they have a special perspective. And the ones that are flukes, they just either got hopeless, deflated, self-sabotage. And, you know, most artists, the artist story is pretty similar most of the time. Most artists are coming from a place where they're, you know, it's like buy, low, sell high, right? They're coming into the industry with nothing, and they're in a desperate situation where they kind of need to, you know, they'll kind of sign anything. And that's like the age old story. And it feels like, you know, they talk about lions and lambs, you know, just lambs going to the slaughter. Like, you know, it feels like there should be a sense of, there should be a limit.

I think. and look we're in the music business every day and in entertainment every day and there are a lot of good people and we we deal with all different we we we deal with all different kinds on all different sides and we we work really well with people um i always feel like if you but if we cannot be honest then then then what can we actually do together because if we can't be honest about uh on both sides so that as much as we talk about the cautionary kind of tales all the time about those bad deals in the beginning, it's also important to recognize that the opportunity to work with the people over here who have been here a long time and have had success and built teams that work well,

that that's valuable and that you do have to give up something to give some true partnership is everyone is mutually gaining things together. and they're inspired to work hard because, yes, the legacy of the thing they're building and the incentivization of what they're building. That's a real thing. If we don't recognize it, then we're lying. But it's finding that middle ground where we can actually put all the cards on the table and talk about what's right and what's fair.

And if we zoom out, I think our idea of the last 10 years was not just, didn't just happen in the last 10 years. It was really sort of like what kind of. of what do we wish we had? What do we, how do we wish some things would have played out? What do we learn? What were the good? What were the bad? Or hard, not bad, but hard lessons. And then like if we, if we invested in things and we, you know, we had, we looked, we kind of, I think we kind of looked at as a chapter with Good Charlotte that like gave us the, the platform, gave us the opportunity to, to build these things or to invest in these.

things? What if we spent our second career sort of building things that made the world feel more like what we wished sort of the industry felt like when we came in. And like Joel said, there was there was great people in the industry then and there's always there's always bad actors anywhere you go. And it's usually only a few that ruin it for everyone else. I would say it's not only a few in the music business, but I'd say I like to think there's more good people. Most people hear an idea that's like fair or like equitable or like, you know, compassionate. And most people agree. Most people will agree.

But when you talked about phases, I kind of think there's three phases as well. I think there's the phase of zero self-awareness. That was us as kids, not really understanding exactly where we came from, not really understanding anything, not having zero education and not knowing anything. thing about ourselves and not even being aware of ourselves. Which, and you could name that as a weakness, right? You could naive as well in there. You could throw that in there. You could say that's a weakness.

There's also ignorance is bliss. So it's like it gives you the drive to not go to college and to start a band. Sometimes how you do you're cool as shit. That's a question that I ask a lot of artists because I'm just like fascinated by this like philosophy, which is like does like, I think that all. art requires pain. That's my philosophy. I mean, I ask a lot of people. I don't think you need to be in pain to create good art, but I think you have to have experienced it. And that kind of talks to the idea where you said, the artist story, which is like the artist comes, you know, it comes from, like,

that on awareness or that, like, that provides you drive and inspiration and you see other people and you want to follow them without necessarily understanding the risks and the pitfalls. Yeah, I think there's also artists out there who come from like perfectly like stable encouraging loving homes that just have like this like total like bleeding heart for the world who just look around and see pain everywhere and feel pain you know the source of the pain is it can be different for everyone there's also different types of poverty you know there's there's people that come from like you know families that are like you know immensely wealthy Yeah, immensely wealthy and they don't get any emotional support or they don't get like time with their parents.

They're, you know, and that's a whole different kind of poverty. You could argue with maybe worse than, you know, which one's worse, you know. Well, yeah, I mean, ultimately, the people will, and anyone that's listening will argue, well, that's not worse. But everyone's pain feels worse than everyone else's, right? Because it's a, because we are very self-reliant. buy it or compare it. But there's people I meet that have that had everything when they grew up and you wouldn't believe their stories.

You wouldn't believe how sad. You wouldn't believe how sad their stories are. So you can find those stories in every different, every different situation. But I think, I think that the chapters as I see it is like total unawareness, no self-awareness at all. To searching for self-awareness and wanting to grow is the second chapter. which I think you'll see a lot of artistic decisions in that chapter. And then the third chapter, which I think we're in now, is coming into self-awareness

and figuring out what to do with the... What you've learned. Yeah, what to do with what you've learned. How can you make an impact? And how do you want to spend your time and energy and what do you want to make in the world? And what do you care about? what are you what are your what's important to you and um i think you know where we've gotten to now i think obviously the most important thing to us is our marriages and our kids above everything um which

um you can only know and get to if you've lived these other chapters um and i think both of us agree that our biggest goal in life and the thing that will allow us to you know die happy is if we're good dads and husbands, number one. And then everything filters down from there. Were we good friends? Were we good colleagues? Were we good mentors? Did we do things we could be proud of?

If we made mistakes, did we try to correct them? Try to correct them. Make repairs with people or situations. And so I think for me, those are like the three chapters, but they do file into, you know, Liberty Spikes, suits. Yeah, suits and then, you know, investors in companies that. Trucker hats. Yeah, yeah, chrots.

Yeah, hoodies and trucker hats and just working on things we invest in in companies that we want to build and ideas we want to execute on. That's the place we're in now. But taking out, extracting what we're, you know, that first question, I always think about for people listening who like always I say these conversations are meant to try to help people extract things out of them that they can actually use every day or an idea that they could actually take and meditate on and for themselves. And so the question I ask myself when I think about phase one, right, the way you kind of relate to us. in the idea of Good Charlotte, the music, it's that Liberty Spike phase, right? Which I think most people do.

Which is probably phase two for you guys too, or not even. That was the beginning of phase two, probably. When you think about the records we did, the first six years of the band was just complete unawareness and naive, being kind of aggressively chasing this idea that we were good enough to make it and that we had this, that we would. run down the stream. The thing that I always kind of like want people to think about for themselves and how they could apply to their own lives is anyone out there that's listening that has, you know,

something they're trying to accomplish a business, an art, their personal growth, their physical health, things like that. Because it's very hard for different people in different categories. Some people really have their health in order, but they just can't seem to figure out what they want to do with their life for. the naive and unaware phase is extremely important and where you think you are at a disadvantage to everyone else that has figured it out you're at an advantage because there is something about being naive and unaware that allows you to do your most kind of stream of consciousness work and your best work I think sometimes and so I say to people that are like

that think they're in a disadvantaged place because they're just starting out or they haven't figured it out to let go of that negative idea around where they think they are and to let themselves go and go after whatever they think they could accomplish because I do think that those naive years were some of our best. And I do think that we always try to be as naive as possible when we're starting something. There's something very hopeful about it. It's really about hope by not seeing the obstacles. And you get to the other side of something when you accomplished it and you go, would you go back and do it again?

And you go, hell no, I wouldn't go back and do it again. That was too much work. But I didn't know it was going to be that much work the whole time. So I just did it. So I just did it. Yeah. And there's the naive part of that is why you could do that hard work. Also, if you really looked at the possibilities and you looked at the roadblocks and challenges

and how, how, what the, you know, what the odds were. you'd probably never do it. Well, it's like when someone has to lift a car off of a child and they get super strength. Yeah. It's like they just, they want it, they need it, they do it. It's being... And it happens. Even if science says it can't.

Yeah. I mean, that's a very dramatic example. That's a great example. But it's being asked of them and they do it. And I think that like everybody's got something that calls them a little bit if they can listen, if they can quiet things down and listen, that instinct or that thing that says, I think it would be cool if I did this. So what was that moment for you? All the way back to the beginning, I think was, you know, we've kind of said this story before,

but it really was at a time in our life where we really had, it was confusing, it was depressing, there was depression all around us. We had something in us. I think we've always been a team, so we've always talked about it. We've talked about everything, and we still do through the years. There was something that just said, don't give up.

Not even with music, not with anything. There was just something that said, like, don't give up. Keep going. Yeah, keep going. You can be more than this. You can be more than this. You can be different than this.

You can be more than this. You can amount to something. And I think coming from a place when you don't know if you were worth anything and you don't know if you've mattered, you don't know if. You didn't feel like you were mattered or were worth anything. Yeah. And there's just kind of chaos, instability and depression all around you. And there's just a little thing. So hopelessness to all of it.

Yeah. Will it matter? Will it even matter if I try? Will this situation be any different? And I think we were lucky to have each other. Not everybody has someone. We were lucky to have each other so that on a day when I felt like it wouldn't matter. You had a cheerleader.

Yeah, I had a cheerleader that said, it will matter. And on a day that he felt it wouldn't matter, I said it will matter. And we found music. We found music, I think, through, I mean, alternative press was a big one, you know. It's a really special one for us. It's been a very special. At that point, I remember. It was a source of, of, of, of,

we were extremely captivated by artists and how did they do it. How did they make it? How did they create music? And it was a source of what made us feel cool. I think when you grow up with, you know, you can't afford the clothes that other people are wearing. And the things that you, you know, when you come into your own awareness as a young, you know, as a teenager, or you go into ninth grade or eighth grade or whatever, I think it's the age around.

I see my kids kind of both going through like finding their own style and all that. When your resources are limited and you can't. And in the 90s it was different. It wasn't like now I think there's more resources to try and make things work for you. And with an iPhone, you can figure out how to get somewhere or how to buy things, you know, how to make money, all that. But I think that music gave us a freedom to be different. And then we started to really get our identities out of like we could go to a thrift store and dress like the Beastie Boys or...

It's like DIY. Yeah. Yeah, I think genuinely, we gravitated to the things that we gravitated to because resource-wise, we could get to the, you could go, like he said, you could go to a thrift store, you could you could rip up old shirts you could you could do things that like whereas the other things aesthetically that were going on in the 90s there was there was sort of like a high end sort of like you know super shiny and then there was like the there was like more the like grunge punk alternative where it you know it was attainable you know and we got gifted a guitar and a base

from from a church uh guy to church that was helping our mom out in a time when there wasn't, you know, there wasn't a Christmas, you know, happening. And we, that was how we started, you know, we went to a Beastie Boys concert. And it was the, that was the first, like, real concert we went to. Wow. Yeah. No, we had gone to, like, this, like, Christian concert, like, I don't know, a couple years before or something. And, you know, I don't know if we really connected.

We didn't connect to them. Yeah, that didn't really like excite us. But there was obviously a live music. We didn't have any live music experience. You know what I mean? So the Beastie Boys concert, we were in nosebleeds. We left that show at the Patriot Center. Yeah.

95. May 13th or 15th? Yeah. 1995. I still have the ticket. it. Wow. Yeah.

It meant a lot. You know, that show meant a lot. And then that really, we said, that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. And for whatever reason, like, watching that show, just watching, you know, and I don't know for anyone who's ever seen, not seeing them live. And obviously, you know, they're not playing anymore. But they were, they had a thing, you know, they did a thing. They were really, they were really special.

The live show was really special. And the whole show just watching it in awe. In awe and also almost in silence just watching. Yeah. Just watching everything around us and watching the stage and just going like, I feel like we could be up there. You know? And then just all of a sudden, sights were just set on it.

That was it? That was it. That was it. Never looked back. Never looked back. There used to be a, there used to be this like quarterly magazine that would come out called the musicians guide to touring and promotion. And you could find it at like the, what was it back then?

It was in Barnes and Noble. Borders, borders and music. Yeah. So, so. So found that. We made demos and I just, we know, my, our little sister, we had a disposable camera we went to Paul's neighborhood

because he had like a pond in his neighborhood and we took photos photos on the wrote up a bio wrote up a bio I wrote letters as the manager

and sent them out with all the labels with cassettes you know our early cassettes and we made it went to like a local print shop and made stickers that a friend of ours

drew an art class so I was like can you draw me a sticker still have this yeah still have still have a few of those stickers like from the original run and and and uh started sending out what they what i read in the magazines you got to do with you press kits uh and started sending him out and and and that's what we would do every night when we get home from work we had to work jobs so we were what jobs did you work i like pizza place grocery store grocery store, waiting tables, because we were always losing our jobs every three to six

months because we would get a show. Right. And they wouldn't let us off. And that came first. So, but we actually had to help. Yeah, we were religious about it. That was like, that was our, that was it. We would lose the job for a show for, you know, 20 kids, you know, like, it was just,

it was religious. It was, it was really, I don't know why we had that immediate dedication and why we would go, yeah I'll lose my job to go play a show but we we just started doing that and then when we got out of school we just kept you know one thing after another some of the you know the we signed up for that remember the music monthly compilation so there's there was a local Baltimore area like music monthly like DC Baltimore area like music paper like a free music paper and they would do a compilation for local bands and submitted for that, got on it. And then a assistant of a actually big time A&R,

like at Columbia Records called and came down to see us, offered us a demo deal, which is sort of like not a real record deal, but we'll do three songs. We said no. We were like, you can give us a real deal, we'll do a real deal. We'll do a real deal with you, but we're not going to do a demo deal. Don't ask me why. We really believe.

We really believe that, you know. And, you know, but that was like, you know, there was something in it, even regardless of what the outcome was at the time being, so completely unaware, completely unaware of like how, you know, and we didn't grow up in Baltimore. We didn't grow up in D.C. We grew up about two hours from Baltimore, an hour and a half from D.C., you know, pretty far down 301. And Waldorf, we used to claim, but it was further than Waldorf.

It was a half hour past Waldorf. So, you know, we didn't really as naive, unaware kids, we didn't realize how we were threading the needle of like, of not, and you know, there wasn't a ton going on in that area as well as far as like being connected to nationally, except for the H.F. Estival. And we were just completely naive and unaware. and we were just constantly searching for opportunity to connect with people. Yeah, and if anything, it was regardless of the outcome, it really kept us like going and focused and also kept us super positive.

It kept us really positive. It kept us like, because there was tons of other bad stuff going on in our life in the sort of chaos of like the fallout of a totally, broken family that was also broken financially in the process and riddled with addiction and things like that. So I think that there was all these problems at home. I do think if I zoom out, when I listen to him talk, it's nice because I can zoom out and go, what's the through line here for all people? I do think the nature of living things is to search for life, to search for sunlight, to search for water. Yeah. Right. I do think it's our nature to survive. A crack in the concrete to grow.

Right. And I do think that that's what that was at the time. I think that we were just searching for growth. I think it's our nature as living creatures to search for survival, growth, all of the things that are kind of animal DNA tells us to do, run from danger, look for food and water, look for shelter. You know what I mean? So I do think that there is a natural, there's a natural strength that all people have if they, if they, if they allow themselves to, to be primitive in that way sometimes and search for the good, search for the life, search for the sunlight and be hopeful and be hopeful and grow. And that is like,

I think, I think a, something that we didn't choose. I think that there is something natural about it. And so I think that, there's part of... But you can't find what you're not looking for. Yeah.

So if I think that I'm going to go out today and I'm going to have a bunch of bad experiences, you know, I might have a good experience, but for the most part, I'm probably likely, like, going to have some bad experiences. If I go out today and I hope and I think that I'm going to have some positive experiences, I might still have a bad experience, but I'm more likely than I would be if I wasn't, you know, hoping I might have a good experience and I might make some progress. I think that like it's your bias. I think if you can change your bias,

you can actually change your life. But some people, we were lucky to have each other. We always say this to people. Like we survived because we had each other. And I don't know if I'd be the same person if I didn't have a partner through it all. I might not have survived the, I might not have psychically survived.

I might still be here, but I might be a different person. I might be jaded. I might have let, you know, because even through time in the industry or like disappointing experiences with people, I really made a conscious decision, me personally, I made a conscious decision not to let it jade me.

And I was like, I don't want to be mad at people that I don't know. You know, I don't want to be mad at people. Or to respect the animal that they are and to understand the animal that they are and to be more aware of that kind of animal. But I think some people that don't have that partner, to support. It can be tough if you don't get some wins on the board early. Even one, even enough, even just enough of a win, some early success at something or some early positive thing that gives you the idea that if you try, something can happen or something will happen.

And I think some people hit a point where they go, it doesn't matter how hard I try. It doesn't matter how kind I am, it doesn't matter how much I give, nothing's going to come from it. And I think that one of the really things that we're really grateful for is that we've always had this like partnership that we still have, you know, we even, even our wives and kids, like, we really are a group. Like, we really do support each other and we don't do everything together. We don't work with our wives. We don't like have, but we support, all of us support, each other with with emotional support also wisdom like you know we both have really really smart wives like they're very um they've a lot of wisdom beyond what anyone knows i mean have been such a

force of like of us becoming i guess i think the men that we are has been overly group effort it's really been a group effort and i think that like we're we look back at all the phases and you know when we were talking about phases, that we were really searching for that too, though, just like we were searching for mentors. We really were searching for mentors. And I think it's why we enjoy mentoring so much. It's really rewarding. It's really one of the most rewarding things that I think I've gotten to experience.

The life is this phase that we've been in now for some time of just investing, supporting, mentoring, old wounds heal when you can have a conversation and you see someone's mindset shift and you see them become more driven, more hopeful, more, you know, but they have it there.

You're just sort of watering it. You know what I mean? You're just sort of pointing out. You're pointing out like things. It really like, you know, if you can help someone steer around something that you got blindsided by, it really heals like a,

it really, does sort, you feel it becomes a superpower and you go, I'm actually glad I got blindsided by that. Well, also just the idea of partnership and having each other and also now having your wives and having that, it's like you have a wider perspective. There's both of you guys also have this idea of like reference. So that's something I think about in my life a lot is like whenever something bad happens or I have a bad feeling or I get anxious or I get depressed, like I have this point of reference. And usually I need to hear it from someone else who's been with me through it

that I got through it the last time. Like that feeling or that experience or whatever someone did to me perceived or otherwise, like that I, it's possible to get through it and I won't feel this way forever. So like having someone else go through this entire thing with you, like the drive that you guys are describing, having this whatever, unawareness, but it's also just like drive and hope that having that like someone else. I see that as like having a point of reference who's able to remind you like you said, a cheerleader when you're not able to see it like, okay, like this happened, but we've gotten

through this feeling before. We've gotten through this experience before. We've been through worse. I think it's the feedback mechanism that we all need that we don't all have. So what happens with people is we need some source of feedback. And we tend to, it's a natural thing to, for any kind of growth is we need feedback. mechanism and we tend to get our early feedback from our parents. A lot of the generation we come from, I think was a certain generation of parents who didn't necessarily have these like well-rounded tools and really kind of developed tools at the time. They didn't have the same resources. Right. There wasn't therapy. Therapy was like taboo and divorce was taboo and all kinds of things

you weren't a lot to talk about it. And the common I have, thread, I think, through all the parents of the generation, anyone born in the 70s through to probably the 90s, were with this certain group of parents. And I think that the shift started to happen in the 2000s and really in the last decade has been this revolution of personal growth and self-awareness and therapeutic tools we use to communicate with one another. So the communication and the source of feedback and source of information that we all tended to get came from a critical place that I think was meant to protect us, right? They were raised by a generation of parents who fought in wars and went through the depression and we're coming up in a time where life was really hard and they were real dangers. You could die from things like that you don't now.

There was a generational trauma that everyone was living there. Absolutely. And we're all affected by it because our parents and our grandparents were. Absolutely. The World War II era of our country was not only it made our country, but it also traumatized so many families because what they had to sacrifice altogether as a country to get on that and beyond. So when you think about those decades of growth in what made, you know,

and specifically where we grew up is America. So we talk about America, right? And talk about the world. But as it pertains to us, we grew up in this country that all grew together through these phases. And so we had this generation of parents who I think all of us could relate to this, like, critical parent who was trying to teach us how to survive. Because that's what they were taught. Right. And then also, I think all this pop culture, revolutionary stuff in the next.

90s, these ideas were coming into play that were to these older generations, scary, like individuality, like people, you know, the differences we all have as people was still a new idea back then. So you had all this stuff, and I think our feedback system was a critical one. And so it wasn't actually useful beyond protecting us from going out into, the world and I guess like getting ourselves killed. And, you know, theoretically. Or having like a bad life because we didn't go to college or whatever. So it wasn't a real feedback system.

Everyone needs to develop a source of real feedback, right? Real data from someone that is looking at it from a level perspective. I was listening to something the other day about developing your own feedback system in how you do that is look at yourself from a third person. And the people who can do this actually gain a real strength in being able to make decisions because they can develop this third person view of themselves to give themselves feedback the way a friend with. Like, look, here's what I think.

You tend to do this when you get into a situation. You shut down because you're afraid and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like being able to be that person to yourself with a level, like with a, with a, with the optimistic stance instead of a critical one, you gain the strength of being able to go forward. Now, what I related from that is I've always had a third person feedback because I have my twin brother who will give me a real level source of information about what I've done historically and what they think I should do

in this situation with all the information. And that kind of feedback is really, really critical in assessing situations and making decisions quickly when you need to. And also assessing things and making decisions when you don't have to as quickly, when you have a longer period of time. So a lot of times as people, we don't develop our process. So we make a decision too fast or too slow instead of measuring and going, we need to make a- we're sort of running around on the field, not really knowing which game we're playing, not really knowing if there's a playbook we're running, and we're just sort of, and then a lot of us are naturally, you know, a lot, most people have a natural ability of some sort, and

sometimes enough raw talent that they can do that and run around on the field without knowing which direction they're running and still score some goals. But I think when you can understand, like you're saying, if you have some sort of feedback mechanism that lets you understand what your actual position is, what your role is. what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. You can supplement those things. And there's enough connectivity that you can tap your feedback mechanism is giving you constant feedback.

So I'm zoomed in and he's zoomed out or he's zoomed in and I'm zoomed out. I can tap him on the shoulder and go, yo, slow down, man. Like I think you're a little anxious right now or I think you're going a little too fast on this. Like let's talk about it. And we have this real source of information and feedback constantly. That's been our strength. I think one of the probably, well, it's a huge strength.

A lot without knowing it and then coming into like when you think about the phases, total unawareness, which I think was sort of all the way up until Chronicles. I think we made the first two records completely unaware. Just like, oh, it might be cool if we do this and oh, I like this and I like this. And then also getting, coming into the world totally, we were so green. We were, we matured very late. We were very green. We were so green.

We had no life experience. We had never been to New York. We had never been to L.A. We had never been anywhere. We had to fly on a plane until we were 18 or 19 to California, one trip. And the band was already well on its way. We were so green. Then we come into an industry where we didn't know the world would be critical.

We thought that first album, we thought we just we listened to it was so much we I remember like we thought we some people would argue that's a classic album bench yeah but I listen I love the I love the first album it's very sweet I listen to it and I just go all those guys they're sweet they're really sweet guys they're really trying their best we really were trying our best we were not trying to be cool we literally didn't have any idea we were just trying our best we wanted to be so much you know and we thought we were We thought it was so cool, you know. And now I kind of, I'll blush sometimes when I listen to that record, but I do like listening to it because it's our inner child, you know.

It's really our inner child. We were so unaware. And then we got slapped in the face with all kinds of stuff. Yeah, just the world life. And we were so green. We were so green. Then, you know, moved to L.A. Well, we didn't actually move to L.A.

until chronicles. So we made chronicles. Yeah, so we made chronicles. But we made the young and the hopist. It all went really fast. We were on tour, you know, you know, made the record tour, tour, tour, tour, tour, made the second record tour, tour, tour, tour. So we didn't stop.

It just went, went, went. And that was all completely unaware. Right. Well, because you kind of went from one bubble to another bubble. Because like success young, I mean, just from having friends, having interviewed, Paramore, bands like that had that success young. young went straight from a small town to a tour and you see how they get traumatized and it's so young like you're stunted yeah you're stunted yeah and you don't like you like go from knowing you know church group

to knowing yeah yeah like you're playing warp tour and then everyone manages you and treats you uh they kind of infanelize you and they and they and they they they debilitate you from being able to grow with your business. And that's the problem. And that's the problem we looked to solve with our newer companies is like, we don't manage people. We're their partners. It also goes back to what you talked about in the beginning, which is like these deals. These deals. Which is like they get you and you don't really know very much. And they're like, oh, like you, you like this. And they talk circles around you. And you get confused and you like at some point you give in and you go, okay, I mean, just whatever. What do I know? What do I know? And. And our,

our message to artists is you know a lot. You have incredible instincts. That's what got you here. We'll teach you the language. We'll teach you the language because it's just some, it's just some words. You know a lot, you know. So I think like that period of time, we were so young and green. Even, even though we were 21, you know, when the first record came out in 22,

we made, you know, young and hopeless. When I, we were so young, we were so green. And then when we got to, by the time we got to Chronicles, we were right on the edge of jaded, angry. And also, you're going through all this in front of people. That's the other part of it. Yeah. And people have something to say about it. And we, and, you know, we were the lifestyles of the rich and famous guys.

We were like, hey, we'll take it. You don't want it? We'll take it. Because we got nothing. And we still feel that way. We still feel that we still have that attitude of like, you know, like if there's an opportunity, we'll show up, we'll show up early. We'll show up earlier than everybody else.

But I think we were, we were, when we made chronicles, we were in this place of like, why, why do people criticize us? What are we, what, what, what, what, why do they box us in? Why did they pigeonhole us? Why do they say this? Why did they say that? And we were still reading stuff, you know, at this point, and at a certain point in our life, we just stopped reading stuff.

We just sort of, we'll stop reading opinions and stop sort of like, I don't know, I actually don't know how people feel about me because I'm not actually, I have, the only experiences I have are on the street and everybody's really kind and really nice and say, hey, you're, you know, this song or this album or just like, oh, what a, what a, what a sweet little girl you have, you know, if I'm with my daughter. And so I have a, and I think I'm also generally looking more to have nice interactions and not to have, you know, negative interactions so i find more probably i probably find more nice interactions you know um just in life when i'm out with my family or like you know but um but we were on the edge of we could go

this way and go sort of go sort of like angry and i think we the chronicles we really sort of like you know we we we sort of started going through that and then going into um good morning revival we're still going through that you know searching. And I think like we really started doing some healing on cardiology, which ended up being our last record before we took a break. Because I think just instinctually, I think we felt, you know, I don't know exactly what to do here.

I want to heal. I want to be a whole person and I don't know what that looks like. I want to find some resources. So we started looking, you know, that's when we kind of started looking for, you know, therapists. People to help us. Yeah. You know, teachers.

We had therapists and different people. But I do think that like cardiology is interesting because it was like our least kind of like the record that almost people threw away. But there was so much healing for us on that record. And I think we broke through something that we don't even give that record credit for. Because I think in general people could look at our catalog and go, oh, that record was kind of like a failure. To me, it was the biggest success. because of the searching we did on that record and the confusion we went through on that record

and on the other side of it, I think we found the value of us as us. It's not the success we've had. It's not the records. It's not the young and the hopeless. It's not good Charlotte. It's not what we've accomplished to in front of the world and what people clapped for,

but it's that we survived a really traumatic childhood. And we learned how to love it. ourselves after that. And I think that that was the beginning of the question, is this more valuable than me? Is having success in front of the world? Is selling records? Is touring and doing all this and being good Charlotte? Is this the value of me? Or am I special enough to not do it and still feel valuable? Right. It's about identity. Yeah. And purpose. And purpose. And then those years of searching after that before we started MDDN, before we've now, we're now in like what I would say the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

to, to have, to, to, to, to have, to, to have, to have, to, to have meaningful interactions every day when I go and do the coffee shop or when I'm in the office with my coworkers or when I'm hanging out with my friends to actually stop and like go all of these interactions to me they matter what impression I leave on someone what I leave them with for the day even if they're a stranger or or the feedback I give my friend or helping someone at the office solve a problem or interacting with all the artists you know every day we're interacting with artists who are chasing their own dreams. And their dreams are more important to me

than what I would say what my micro dreams are was all the little things I want to accomplish. My biggest dream is to develop into a fully realized person who is just comfortable being in their life and doesn't need more or less and can actually relate to people that I love,

be present and smell the roses, you know, and find the graphic, gratitude and every day, because we can find gratitude. We can also find problems. We all have them. We all have, you know, my kids are two individuals. They're going to have to live their life and solve, learn how to solve problems, and they're not going to be perfect, and they're going to have a lot of learning to do. And I'll try to give them as much information as I can, but life is our greatest teacher. And we have to just live it and love ourselves and look for opportunities to grow.

And look, it sounds maybe idealistic and hippie-dippy or whatever, but like I really believe that we have to take ourselves seriously. This is all we get to be. We don't get to be anyone else. We don't get to live any other life. And so when someone dismisses that idea, I think it's their own problem. I think that they haven't done their own in searching to take themselves seriously. I think every person should be.

should feel special, right? And we live in a cynical time where, like, we're all free to run wild on social media and say whatever we want and, and puke up all our pain on, on each other. And, and I, I just think it's a,

it's a very hard time for people to, to actually say, like, I take myself seriously and I want a good, I want to be a better person. And, um, my,

My friend told me an amazing story. He was with his kids and he was driving and his six-year-old said, hey, dad, you know how you kill a god? And he was like, oh my God, okay. He was telling me, he was like, in his head, he was like, I gotta hear this. Okay. Where's this coming from? He goes, okay, no, how, buddy?

he goes, forget about them. And it was kind of like mind blowing to me because I think the age that we live in, it's like sometimes you just got to turn it off. And you just got to go into your real life, into where you're at with your family, where you're at with your people around you, and just turn it off and just be present. And I think it's one of the hardest things to do is be present, especially if you come from, you know, well, and everybody, comes from a different

sort of trauma. Every human being can go back to experiences in their life that were impactful that shaped them. And actually, if you think about it and if you get quiet, one little memory from being a kid

riding your bike or one little memory about a thing that at that school comes up and you wave it off and you go, that wasn't a big deal. But it's coming up for a reason. And I think that like being present, we we we is like the toughest thing for for for people it's why they've why they've why there's so many books about it is why you know like there's so many different um you know resources now for

mindfulness because mindfulness is just being present you know so um so i think that like if we can if we can go inward and we can like look at and we can be present in our life then we can go outward and we have more to give and we know ourselves better and we're more grateful we're more of all these things. And it's sort of like every single day, I guess it's like called a practice because it never ends because it's just a lifelong thing of just like practicing like how am I going to be?

Every day we can become more who we want to be or less who we want to be. And I think that like for us, you know, when we think about these phases, we look back on the completely unaware phase, the first couple of records. with a lot of, like, almost like, I feel, I back those guys. I really do.

And I didn't always. It was embarrassed sometimes. I wanted to hide, you know, if you think about the picture of yourself when you're a kid at some point, the one picture that you don't want anyone to see because you were just, you know, either a, whatever, nerdy little kid. kid or you were, you know, you were, you were chubby little kid, or you were like a, you had a funny haircut, or you were wearing a hand-me-down clothes, or you thought you were cool doing this thing. I always think that to find that picture of yourself and then just put it right here

for everybody to see it. It really, and just go like, yeah, I own my, the things that maybe you thought were silly. I own the things that you, that were mistakes. I own the things where I was completely unaware of myself and I said something and just backing yourself through the different phases of your life. However good, bad, ugly, embarrassing, funny, you know, I think that like as an artist, especially artists coming out young, you really get to do that. You really have to do that. And you really have to do that with yourself if you're going to be in the world and you're going to And it's interesting because some people just have this natural ability to do it. There's some people that just have this like intact self-esteem.

And I admire those people so much and I watch them. And I, you know, but that wasn't me. For sure, wasn't me. It's been a process. And I think that the going from the unaware phase to the trying to find awareness phase, which I look at as like chronicles. Good Morning Revival is a record I love. I think Good Morning Revival was, for me,

we were really trying to be courageous and we were really trying to be more developed. Yeah, we were just trying to develop ourselves. We were trying to take risks or trying to do things that we thought were interesting. And then, like Joel said, cardiology, there was a lot of healing on that record. And I think that record sort of was like the record that was sort of ending that phase,

taking us into the next phase, which we started all this exploration of self, you know, self-experation, which led us to, I mean, you were already married and had kids, you know, which led me into my family. And like I said, I think our biggest, I think our biggest goal in life way, way beyond. And I think business, you know, investing in businesses and building. building things was always something that we were really inspired to do. And that was definitely part of the dream of just like, could we do something that matters? Could we make a difference? Can we make an impact? I think our biggest goal was to have peaceful homes. Functional families.

Yeah, like families that were functional and that it was like it was consistent. Well, it's kind of reflective too, even like that sentiment of. your business ethos, at least from where I stand. You want these functional families, which you may not have had. You want to give back to artists, like in a way, being mentors in a way that you didn't have. So it's really like a full circle thing, which I think goes back to mindfulness as well. I mean, I think it goes to being present and trying to improve the world around you and finding a purpose-driven life. It's not hard. It's not hard if I think you really be a build a relationship. relationship with yourself and your own values and you put that first, then all the decisions

you make are going to be in line with that and things are going to feel that way. I think families are set up and we have to be really mindful and thoughtful about what we want to get out of our family. And I think not enough people stop and go, again, you hear what do you want to be when you grow up? Not who do you want to be, right? The what I want to be when I grow up. The what I want to be when I grow up sets a very kind of rigid goal on like this one idea. But who I want to be is a different question. And I think families are either they grow and they evolve and they and that to me sounds healthy or they they go to a point and fall apart and die and they become broken. And so I started thinking about like, what do I want to feel like when my kids are

older? And who do I want to be to them? Well, I want to be a person they can call for anything, you know, and they can tell me anything. And I'm never, you know, and it's easier said than done when you don't have a model, an early model. And then you're just always afraid, you have to knock against that constantly. You have to knock against that fear. You have to really beat against it and challenge it because most of the time if you look in your real reality, everything's okay. But in your perceived reality, you can think things are always going wrong. Yeah, that's the definition of fear, right? Yeah.

It's funny, though, even sitting here doing an interview sort of conversation about Good Charlotte and like the past, like in our families, you know, we're very close. Our families are very close. And like as close as you could be. Yeah, and just in, and it's really great. It's really, really nice. And there's so many times when I pinch myself and I just go, gosh, man, like our all, our brother, our sister, us too, we're all really close.

We're all really supportive of one another. The least talked about thing is Good Charlotte. We share what we're doing in life, but it's really kind of more about like who we're being. I don't know. I mean, the things I think we're excited to talk about is if we've, like we've made an impact on someone. We're really excited about it and we're really like we see someone making progress in their life. We see an artist that we're working with, you know, from where they came into our life and to where they are now and this whole

journey along the way and they're going in a direction of being happy in their life and having a life that they want to live in and not a life where they have this, this, you know, big music career but they're miserable you know it's like we get really excited when we see personal growth with people that are around us and we go can you believe they just got married like or can you believe they they had a kid or can you believe like they or there's just more self-sufficient yeah and and it's funny because like i think the least part of us like and and by the way we're all really the band we're we're close like we you know we're all like um doing this like life together.

But it's sort of like the least thing we talk about is Good Charlotte and what we've done. Well, it's kind of funny. Don't you feel like maybe like these bands that like people like me who grew up hearing you guys on the radio, like a band to the audience means something entirely different. To you guys, it's a chapter of your life. Like I'm sure it does come up. It just doesn't come up in a direct way where you're talking about Good Charlotte or this album.

You're talking about growing up and you're talking about phases. of life and you're talking about being like self-actualized and like that I'm sure good charlotte played into all of that because it was a big chapter of your lives so it does come up I'm sure just not in name in the way that it might for me it does it well and the funny thing is is that I think a lot of our friends and in our support system it's people from all walks of life you know and and not to say that there isn't any you know I mean we're people within the music you know sort of landscape but it's people from every walk of life. And I think it's just something that our friends, it's not front and center.

It's like something that they know we did that they think is cool, right? They're on the outside of it. So they think, oh, that's a cool thing they did, but it's not front and center. You know, front and center, we're like, it's all about family. I mean, you know, we're creating experiences for our families. We're talking. Go ahead. I think we have a lot of reverence for it, though, because it's the vehicle that carried us through a time where we could have really done some damage to ourselves.

And we could have really went in a bunch of other directions. So I really have a lot of reverence for not only what our legacy is as a band, but the guys in the band locked together. It was a vehicle that carried us through what could have been a really bad time full of. of all kinds of stuff. But we were protected in this bubble of ambition and dreams. And we learned how to work together. We learned so many things that we still use. So we have this like reverence for what that good Charlotte,

what that symbolizes and what it means to our life and what it gave us and all the people that provided that for us. So yet not just people in the music industry that helped us, but or taught us the fans and the people that to this day believe in the messages that we were, you know, we needed to say. Right. We needed to believe in. For ourselves. And they created, they made it real. So I think there's a lot of reverence for like that.

An affection, a really, really great affection. You know, we have such a great affection for our. career with Good Charlotte and for the fans we have such an affection for the fans that like you know you still come up to us you know we're kind of celebrate it yeah in a restaurant or or going through an airport or or just out in the world um there's such a and you don't even think about it but there's not a day that doesn't go by that one at least one or two people that I don't know come up to me and say something about good Charlotte it was an important part of a lot of I mean it was an important part of my life, like that whole scene, like what music was doing. It was like AP. Like AP was a big part of my

life. It offered me like a portal into something that was very safe for me because where I was also wasn't safe as a kid. So it's like it's like this kind of like misfits, but it's also becoming mainstream. So you feel it's there's something very protective about it and also very aspirational. Like I'm not a musician, but I went to shows like you guys did growing up, and I saw people on stage, and I wanted to be a part of it. Yeah. Yeah, it was really important. And it's really cool to hear that. I mean, because we felt the same way.

And it really gave us so much. And I think it's why we felt AP was so important. And at the same time, we feel like we are, it's not our instinct to put ourselves front and center on anything anymore. you know um we wouldn't be doing it unless you were asking unless you were asking us um but that's why we also but that's why we felt ap was so important that's why we invested in it um we felt like we feel still that it's still important and that it still matters to have some small group of people that are looking beyond where everyone else is looking and searching and bringing things like you know bringing, you know, artists that, you know, that no one else would put on the cover yet.

Right. You know, that no one else would cover and give a feature to yet, that no one else would bring attention to. It's important to it. And it's aspirational too, you know, and I think that being aspirational is something we always wanted from day one, you know, when we were kids. And we saw people who were aspirational, whether they were in our community or out. And back then, a lot of times, like, even having a nice car, right, like, a lot of people

would, back then, a lot of people would, like, would make a judgment just on that. And I think me and Joel always saw it and say, that looks nice, you know. And I think, yeah. And even now, I think we feel charged with the responsibility. of being aspirational and how we live our lives. Because I think that for everyone who maybe would see it in a negative way, I know that there's a kid out there who's got nothing who needs to see something to drive towards as simple as a material thing or as simple or as simple as a stable family.

Right. As a like, well, those people look happy. Well, yeah, it doesn't mean we don't have our challenges or we don't like, but we're, yeah, it's consistent. We're pretty happy and our happiness is comprised of being together and just being here and us working together as brothers. We feel that that's aspirational because there's periods of it that were that we didn't know how to communicate. We didn't know what our role. We didn't exactly know what our roles were.

We actually had to go through this process of actually figuring out like how do we actually work. What are our roles? And we kind of feel like it's aspirational because. It's the easier thing to do it would just be like, listen, dude, I love you, can't work with you. There's a lot of brothers in bands that it didn't work out. Yeah, and I do think that it's about giving yourself, sticking with it long enough to give yourself enough time to go through that process. Because now, gosh, we don't fight. We occasionally have to, yeah, occasionally we have a moment where we have to say like, okay, hold on.

We're not hearing each other. We need to take a step back and look at, okay, oh, I feel like you're trying to say this. Yeah, well, yeah, you know, and work it out. But like we've gotten, I think working together with your family's aspirational. I think it's much easier just to go like, all right, I love you, but I can't work with you. And I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to deal with like how we can. Well, you hear that like family in business doesn't work or friends in business doesn't work.

That's not true. It's not true. any business that people aren't communicating won't work so if you're friends or family you could try and make that the reason but it's not true it's learning how to communicate it might force you to put other people first right learn you work with your family you might force you to take a step back and go oh you know what i need to not think about myself in this situation or need to communicate how i feel the most powerful thing that any of us can do is learn how to communicate it will absolutely make life easier.

It will get us to our goals quicker. And so it'll make us feel more connected, make us feel closer. The question should always be, am I communicating correctly? Am I communicating efficiently? Am I communicating? Am I listening well? Am I listening emphatically? Am I really trying to understand how it feels to be the person across the table that's

trying to tell me something? If we do that, And if we're empathetic to people, we can be better communicators. But we're not taught that. So we have to learn it on our own instinctively. But I do think, like, anyone listening that's, again, trying to achieve happiness in their own life and their own idea of success, whatever that is, the number one tool you can have is communication skills. And it's always worth searching for better communication. You guys definitely are aspirational.

It's crazy. I mean, also the other thing I have to say about AP and the pop punk scene and having grown up with your music and now knowing you guys today is like there are a lot of people, fans and musicians who didn't grow up from that scene. There was a lot of toxic masculinity. There was a lot of homophobia in that scene. There was like there was a lot and there were a lot of people who didn't take that time. They didn't take any time off. They didn't pause and they didn't evolve. Which is not a judgment either because I understand that it is a bubble and it's hard to get outside of it.

But to see where you guys are today and to have grown up and like really grown up. Yeah. And to be like doing other things and giving back and like having businesses and investing back in things that invested in you, that's aspirational. That's crazy. It gives me goosebumps. That's nice you to say. Some people would argue that, and I could see it, that that's the world, that the world is full of toxic masculinity and homophobia and racism and unfairness. And we could go on and on about all of the things we see. So to say that it existed in the scene is true and still exists because the world is full of it. I think, and some people don't grow up.

And we could say we probably, anyone could argue that they come in contact with those kinds of people every day. And I think we look at that and we can either be just a part of the other side of it where people are growing and we're trying to do things in the world we think are, inviting people to participate in good things. And also, hopefully, make the bad actors or predatorial people feel like they're not welcome to do that here. But like the reality of life and the reality of the world we live in is that stuff is real. and so and on the other side of it you could argue that I mean are we ever going to solve those problems

I don't know I hope we do but all I can do is try to affect the world from the work that I'm doing and and try to grow up you know and and and so I think that like because I do get, not to the point of hopeless, but I do get sad sometimes when I look around and I see people hurting one another. And I don't excuse it, you know, I don't think it's okay. But I also have to try and continue to reach for, believe that we live in a world where there's more good than bad. And you could argue with me that there isn't. And I could say I could see how it would feel that way. You know, again, like, one of the things I like about what AP has been doing is it's inclusive

with all kinds of people. And I think that's important because that's alternative. To me, I look at it and go, what is alternative music? That's how AP started in the 90s, though. That's what you saw. And I think it's interesting, the conversation that's been sort of evolving where, because actually scientifically, I've heard this like a few times now. And so forgive me, because I haven't really done the.

research. But what I've heard is, is that really there's only 4% of people who are sociopaths. So the rest of people are either injured, traumatized, uneducated. But what if it's like triple that? What if it's 12%? Right. So that's a big number. Yeah, yeah. But what if it's doubled? What if it's 8%. We could do that. We could do any multiple of that. I think the way that I've seen the world going is like is that there's been this awakening of like a realization that like things need to change and it's it's and that's that process is like started and I think that um that um we're it's just to see the world making making an effort you know is I think is hopeful and um and also um seeing people sort of also rehabilitate themselves or seeing people actually that may have thought one way

if you read an interview with them, you know, 10 years ago and you're reading an interview from now, they think they think differently. And I think that that's like a huge encouraging sort of thing to see. And I, but I kind of think that like for when I think about like there's this, this vacuum that we can all like live in when we go and we go on to social media. And then we can walk out on the street and we can see, you know, the world around us and we can affect every, we can affect people that we meet, people that we talk to, people that we work with. And I think we have to remember to do that too. And, and, and so I just think that for us, we've always sort of not known, I think, have been self-aware enough to know we don't know the answers,

but have the hearts genuinely in our hearts of wanting to make a good contribution. And I think like going back to the records, like, there was always one song on every record. I think we always had this like really clear like visualization of like, I think we remember riding the school bus. We rode the school bus our whole time in school. And funny enough, we had the same bus driver for like most of that time. time. Yep. And there was definitely days when it was like either really, really cold. And there was periods of time where we didn't have heat in our house. Or food. Yeah, or food. We were kind of

riding the school, cold, hungry. You know, kind of just like, you know, just a tough morning. Just kind of a tough morning. Like, you know, many people have that. And we're kind of always, when we're in the studio, we were always kind of thinking about when we were on that, in that period of time we had, back then it was like the little cassette players, the Walkman, and then it moved to the CD players. And like that song that like got you through that moment or that time in the day or that, you know, going into school where you didn't quite feel it was a real thing. Yeah, that was a real thing.

That song, that song. And for me, it was Everclear. because Art Alexakis always wrote about being poor or his dad leaving. We were going through that. Or rancid because I just thought Tim Armstrong was the coolest. And that cover, AP cover of Tim Armstrong, you know, with the...

Yeah, I know the one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that one. That was... That's such a good one. Yeah. No, no, that wasn't the one.

It was earlier than that. It was earlier than that. It was the first. It was let's go. It was like, let's go. He did a couple. Yeah. For sure.

But on every record, every single one. We tried to write that song. We really, like, we really would like kind of close our eyes. I would least, I would close my eyes and I would just remember that feeling and then we'd try to write that song. So, you know, on, you know, on chronicles, it was We Believe, on Good Morning Revival. It was March on, on Young and Hopeless. hold on on the self-titled record it was a bunch of songs you know but but it I would always like close my eyes in the studio and try to and just remember I can still I can remember that

feeling so clearly and we would just try to write that song even on cardiology on on on all of them and and I think we're still whether we're whether we're mentoring or artists that we're talking to that you know MDDN and MDDN right like we're not managers we're really just creative we're just team members of a team of a really great team of we're coaches and creatives um but we found people here that believe that and like like we had conversations with people that we that we share the same drive we believe that this is like a good idea we believe that like having like a music company that's developing artists that is coming at it from a different angle where we're leaving the commerce outside the building

and everything here is just the art. You can feel it in here. Having been working out of this office, you can feel it. It's crazy. We feel that way too. It's important. It feels special. It feels like it's a culture.

Yeah. Yeah, a sanctuary. As someone who's new to it coming from the outside, like it's tangible. And I see it all the time. I mean, with artists that have been out there for so long and they come in here. and we'll have meetings with different people. Not everyone gets it. It's too far and they've been out there too long.

I think it really works. The team approach really works and the value system really works. And our artists being more connected to their businesses every day, not less connected to their businesses works. Artists becoming more themselves, not less themselves, works. But it works over time. and the idea that people want this one thing to come and save them is a false idea. So the record deal will save me, the publishing deal will save me, the big time manager

will save me. There's certainly some big, great managers out there that when they apply themselves are incredible managers. But there's not one thing that's going to save you. You are going to learn how to be you and how to live a real life. Save yourself. And save yourself. and it's not going to be because of me.

It's very humble. You deserve the credit of your own work. And what we know is, of course, we know good deals. We've been doing deals for 25 years. We can look at a deal from start to finish and help you imagine what this deal is going to feel like in real time and in real life. Most deals are made with the only one idea. We went to the moon. Now, we know the real reality of growth is, is we grow in stages and we grow incrementally.

And some people are a little faster than others. But there's always these spots where people, where momentum builds and things connect. And it can feel like overnight. It's not overnight for anyone. Helping artists understand the life of a deal is just as important as the deal they're signing. And also, how to pick a good partner. What does your gut say? Does it say yes, no?

Does it say me? you got to learn what yes feels like what no feels like and what indifference feels like indifference isn't good or bad to me yes is number one i got to feel like yes i know what yes feels like it feels like this is absolutely exactly what i want and that's about the person not the deal that's about sitting in across the table from someone and going like yes i like being with this person i like what they i like their perspective um it's so important that people learn how to say yes and no based on how they feel. Yeah.

Yes. Listen to their gut. That's hard. It is. But also, you as a professional, right, in the music business and the field you're in, no one told you you could do it. No one said, okay, yes, now you can do it. You at some point said, I think I could do that.

And you just started walking towards it and trying and doing it. I had a very similar experience to you guys. I didn't go to college. Like I came up in a broken family and I just figured how to do it. I don't know how I got here. I have absolutely no idea. Well, you tried and tried and tried again. But yeah, it's that.

It's just like pitching yourself. And you had instincts. Your gut puts you in situations and you said, I think I'm going to go left instead of right. And you found your way through your instincts. And those instincts that got you here, all the opportunities you met on the road, the ones you took advantage of because of your instincts are why you're here. And I try to tell that the artist. Your instincts are your number one

gift and skill and asset. And if you don't learn how what yes feels like and what no feels like, you'll never be able to listen to your instincts very clearly. And so like I always do that exercise even just with my kids. I'm like, does it feel like a yes or? a no. And like to stop and think like that feels like a no. Yeah. I feel like that that is to say I only bring myself up because it applies to anything. It doesn't just apply to musicians. It applies. It's like the same mindfulness of being present, trying to understand right and wrong, trying to stay aligned with your purpose, what your values are, knowing what your values are. I didn't feel, I don't feel like I knew what my values were. Or until I was my mid-20s. Neither did I. Until I was probably 30. But I

I mean, I think we were gaining those over our 20s. But also, our self-esteem can get in the way of our instincts. Because if we value someone sitting across the table more than we value ourselves because of some illusion of what they've done, right? Then we won't listen to the no. We'll value them more than we value ourselves. And we have to value ourselves enough to go like, I don't know why. I just don't feel it.

or we go, man, I feel it, but my mind's telling me no because X, Y, Z. So like getting in touch with really valuing how we feel and that making, giving that credit is, is important. And that takes time to sort through kind of, I think, what trauma does, what low self-esteem does, what all those things do. If we don't heal those parts at the same time, we're trying to figure out how we listen to our instincts and how we make decisions. It's kind of like a global process to try and continue to heal and grow is one that you

have to keep try, try, try, try again. What do you guys feel about playing with Good Charlotte again for when we were young? It's going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to have to rehearse a little bit. Yeah. There's a lot of good people playing this year at that festival too. Yeah. I think it's a good lineup. And we played a show earlier this year. Yeah, we played our little sister's wedding. And it was so much fun. It was so fun. Definitely saw it on TikTok. It was so fun. I had so much fun. And I certainly wasn't even like. It was really heartwarming. It was like, you know, totally nervous before we did it because we had played in so long. But like, you know, just being there with, you know, Billy and Paul and Dino.

sharing such a family moment with the band was so sweet it was so much fun it's one of the things that makes me really happy when I think about the band like um because billy paul dino me joel we've all got our families and everybody is really happy everybody's really stable everybody's really you know, I mean, you know, long marriages. You know, you can see the kids are coming along so great, you know, and like they're they're such great guys. They're such great dads and husbands. And then we all get together at, you know, holiday here or, you know, like the wedding.

It's those moments in life where you just go, oh, man, I'm glad we know each other. I'm glad we stuck together and that actually the band isn't the first priority. Right. I'm really grateful for that. I'm really grateful that we all have that in my. We all share that. Like we're grateful for the band. We are really, really affectionate for the band.

We're really grateful. But we're also, we're proud of it. But it's not the thing that defines us. And none of this stuff is. Actually, the thing I think that defines us is, I think, for all of us, just like what we're doing with our kids and our wives. It's funny. I was just thinking, like, what if Good Charlotte was just this, like, social experiment of, like, these people, like, going through a process of healing. And, like, we're on the other side of it.

And we have this legacy that I'm really proud of. but and that everyone participated in all the fans everyone that was involved even the you could argue the the naysayers or the critics or whoever you could say both sides everyone was participating in this experiment of these like four guys five guys um no like dino came later but now it's been like 15 16 years 18 years um these five guys uh coming of age and growing into real people that were healed. It's interesting. I always think of it that,

like I was thinking of that, like, as an experiment. Because I always go, what's the legacy of Good Charlotte? It's such an interesting, like, we're not you too. We're not the Rolling Stones.

We're not Green Day. We're not Blink. We're this little, this kind of, this band that existed in its own little way. Little way. in sometimes big ways and sometimes little ways.

And what I take from it of all of that is just that it helped me grow into the person that I am today that actually can live a life and be a father or be a husband and try to be productive in the world. And so it feels super important to me, but not because of the records and the things that you might say were the most important part. And I always go back and forth. on what will we do again? I think we'll do something again.

But it'll be when we all... It'll be different. It'll be different and it will be something that we really care about. Yeah, we're not leaving our families for a year for two years. We're not leaving... Right. You know, it'll be different. And, you know, we kind of feel like we're good with that.

Like, you know, we're really okay, not... You know, I got to tell you, I really... enjoy it when I meet someone that's never heard of our band and has no idea who I am. Of course, some people will like know me because I'm married to my wife. But it's even amazing to meet people who just like, you know, I'm out on my own or I take my little girl out and like meet people for the first time with no, no idea of like, you know, any of that, you know, and, you know, and I, I enjoy that, you know, and I just, and I, and I think it's nice when someone comes up and goes, I listen to you in high school or, you know, it's, it's, it's all nice, you know, but I think

it's funny, it is a funny thought, like, what if it was all just an experiment and, um, to get us to, to be whole people and like, and like, what if that's more important than like a hit song or a record or all the records or all the tours combined? Like, if you add it all up, it's, it's, it feels great. Yeah. It feels like a legacy. But what if that part was actually the most important conclusion or product of the whole thing was like five people grew into like what could have been really broken, problematic,

people full of all kinds of problems? Because that success can do that to you as well. Definitely can. Or like it was. hanging in the balance. Like that was like the God's experiment. Right. It was like the red pillar of the blue felt.

Right. Like which one are you going to become? On this side, like could we have become darker versions of ourselves and had maybe more, even more and more and more and more? Or could we have become like healed versions of ourselves and like and gone into this like frontier we're in now where we're building actual. artist-operated companies that are, they're not vanity projects. They're real organizations and organisms we think will make an impact for years to come. And what does that mean? It's hard to

quantify all of it. But like, I always think that way. I'm like, what if that good Charlotte thing was like just this experiment to see if that thing could help people or hurt people? I wouldn't even, I don't know. I feel like you, like, it takes very special people to come out of that trauma to success, which also can be traumatizing and come out the other end, talking about mindfulness. That is more than an experiment to me. I think that takes very special people to have that happen. I think that our wives, the whole band we have all have these incredible partners, absolutely critical in all of our growth. and I think that there is something about the two organisms, the two functions of like,

you know, the yin and the yang of life, right? It was like the soulmate idea, the better version of yourself or the someone you meet that you can see a better version of yourself in. It kind of calls you to try. That to me was the critical, I really do give the credit of like the whole band. when I look at what choices they've made, they chose incredible partners that make them better. And I can say personally, just for me alone,

I chose a partner who called me to be better always because they actually, because she had values. And my wife, who people know as this one person, right, which is kind of like this character almost of this, you know, this person, is that this really thoughtful, grounded person with real values. She's wise and she chooses to do the right thing. That's just innately in her is to,

she wouldn't, and her instincts are so strong on people. But like she doesn't care about what we have. She doesn't care about what we could achieve in the world. She doesn't care about, so there's no buying her or swaying her in that way. So the only thing that I'm going to get from her is her instinct on the right thing to do and what is that it's what's right for like the growth of us the growth of our family the the evolution of or again like super balanced in like how she sees

the world so like she doesn't judge anyone she accepts people she's I look up to her the most in her like value system and wherever she got that I think it was probably that that call that always kind of like called me to like to be more step up do things that weren't about money or the success of my career which in my 20s I would have thought that was probably the end all be all of me is my live and die by the success of good charlotte and I think good charlotte means more now because none of us care about that I don't care how how big good it is none of us care about it we care about protecting its legacy and we hold its near and dear to our hearts so we because we feel because we're grateful to it because it gave us an

it gave us a way out and it gave us it was the vehicle yeah everything every the opportunities that we know and what we're doing now what we're building now we care about the right things we care about the legacy we care about the people who care about it so we care about the fans of it but and what we're you know and what we do on their behalf but we could give two shits about how many how many how many more people listen to it or how much success we have with it in that sense of because I think it's just completely turned on it on its head. I'm gonna. And, like my music, my hair can't change with me and has to be able to be able to

my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs. Nutrition Profunda, Protection Contraction Contrapsed, 99% less of rotura and punas abjuredas, under control. New potion 9 of Sebastian Professional,

the secreto professional of who not are the people who are people who do you know, and then you know what you

buy your passion in a business and batte records of the payment with the form of the world. You've

heard the best conversion of the world. The incredible system of the

company and you do you the website on your website and in the world.

That's music for your Ohidos. No, you know your business

will your new sure to do your period of

a month on a year on shopify and it's

probably why you have so much playing now. Yeah, I

think so. Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way. I wouldn't yeah, I don't

know. The next frontier growth for me started with meeting my wife

and then and now having a daughter. It's just been the most I just I wouldn't be who I am right now.

And you actually feel like really humbled when you really think about your wife and you think about your family. Like you actually know how many different ways it could have gone if you didn't have the strength to get back up from that one disappointment or you didn't have the resilience to not be mad at everyone about something that. everyone had nothing to do with, you know? Like, and, um, and, um, then the right person comes into your life. And I had great examples because, I mean, you and Nicole been together for 17 years.

Yeah. Billy and his wife, even longer. Even longer. Even longer. Even longer. Yeah. Yeah. Even longer.

So, um, I've, you know, had these great examples and, um, and then to actually get to live it and, and, um, and, you know, we're 10 years together. It's been the biggest growth period of my life. And that's something that, you know, the experience of the band played into and all the records we made and everything were really special to us in different ways,

but you can't go and have that growth if your whole life is focused on that. And the funny thing, the funny thing about it is is that you grow, you go and you grow, and then you actually appreciate it even more in ways that you couldn't before. And so it actually gets better in ways that it couldn't be before. And actually it becomes not for sale.

And then when something's not for sale, it's really special. And so that's kind of what Good Charlotte has just become sort of just not for sale, you know. And so we only do what feels in line with that feeling and all the way that we all sort of live our lives and it's kind of been really it's been an amazing thing to experience just to just to and it's not a it's not an emphatic like sort of defensive no it's just a really kind nice know that we have to you sort of have to give people all the time now it's just kind of like you know not yet no not not not really like because we don't want to offend anyone we don't want to you know give off anything other than just like we're really, I feel like we're just more integrated with ourselves and fully

integrated people. And I think that it actually, the, whatever you call it, the funny thing about it is, is because of that, it's actually, I think the band is pretty interesting. Because it's actually just a footnote now. Yeah. It's a footnote in all of our lives. It's kind of like something that we did that we tried really hard at. We were, I think, think we were at the heart of it, you know, always were, we're just kids, good kids, you know, and who were just completely unaware and just trying and again, back to the three phases, you kind of got to see, like Joel said, maybe, you know, if it was a social experiment, it's really interesting because there were really, there were phases. And on the other side of it,

what more could you ask for than a just peaceful, consistent, real, connected home? Like, what more could you ask for? That's what I think everybody. But that is what makes you happy. And for me, it makes me happy too. That's what I strive to try and have. Some people, they have to go through the process of figuring out what they want. Well, we're not all on the same phase.

Yeah. It's true. Well, well said, journalist, mic drop. Cool. Thanks for the interview. Thank you guys for your time. We should do this in another five years. See how those five years go. Deal. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Anna. Thank you guys. talking to Anna Zanes. Hope you guys enjoyed the episode. If you really liked it, you can rate it and review it on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, you can subscribe, Apple Music, Spotify, anywhere you listen. Your support means a lot. We'll see you next time.