Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Bert McCracken of The Used

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Bert McCracken of The Used. From the beginning, The Used have captured the outpouring of McCracken’s rawest emotions. “It’s more than my journal. It’s so intimate. It’s terrifying… I can’t help it. It’s a big part of what I believe music is about,” McCracken reveals. From 2002’s self-titled to 2024’s MEDZ, the band have navigated lineup changes, inner turmoil, and loss — and then channeled that pain into unrelenting songs that ripple with urgency and emotional intensity. In a conversation with Madden, The Used frontman opens up about being an outsider, putting tragedy into his music, and the band’s 25-year career ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to musician and lead singer of the platinum selling band, The Used, Bert McCracken. His new solo project, Robbie of the Used, is out now, and you can pre-order the 25th anniversary book from alternative press starting February 7th. Let's go. Thanks for coming. Dude, thanks for having me. Are you in L.A. full-time?

No, I'm in Australia. Right, you still live in Australia. Yeah, still live in Sydney. Sydney. Yeah. You like it? I love it. Yeah.

Great place to raise kids. It really is. Yeah. It's kind of cool. One of my best friends lives in Sydney too. And he said, Sydney's for family and he comes to L.A. to work. Yeah. Same.

He's here probably like two months a year-ish, something like that, three months a year. Yeah. That's probably like his version of like touring or something. Yeah. Coming to L.A., New York, whatever, because he's in a different business. But he's like, L.A. is for work. Sydney's for family. Nice.

It's nice. Yeah, we always do all the rehearsing and stuff here. Unless we're in Nashville. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. Long but not, not too bad.

No. Once you get used to it. I'm used to it. Yeah. Yeah. So how's life? Good, man. Yeah, can't complain.

Been really busy with the solo stuff. Is that out now? Yeah, the record came out like a week ago. Okay, great. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, we're pumped. I've been working on it since like 20-20, so it's good to finally get it out.

Is working on it like doing it in between, like what you have to do with the used? Yeah, usually either we'll be recording with the used and then I'll stay like an extra week or we'll be coming off a tour and then I'll hit John Feldman's for like a week or two. Yeah. And did you do the whole record with John?

Yep. Cool. That's cool. Long, long relationship you guys have had. Hell yeah. Yeah, it's nice. Super long, like 25 years. Yeah.

How long have you been married? 16. 16, okay. Yeah. 16's good. Yeah, man. Good job. Cruising.

Yeah. Yeah, she's amazing. She has to be. Yeah, she's an amazing person, an amazing mom. Full Australian. Bert, she's got to be amazing. Yeah. Because you're crazy.

I know. I'd say about me. Like, Nicole of me together, 18 years, we've been married. 14 years married, but 18 years. We were married from the start. From the start. We got married after we had kids as like, we realized, we said in the beginning, we had our kids and we were like, we don't need to get married.

Right. No one's going to tell us what we are. Yeah. And then, like, the kids are like three and four. And I'm like, well, I can't call you my girlfriend, my baby's mom, my partner. He still sounds kind of, it's like, you're my wife. We should probably get married. Yeah.

It's funny how that works. Yeah, we met in 2004. We got married in 2008. It was kind of the same way. We moved in together right away and it was on. Good for you. I met her in Australia. She worked for Warner Brothers at the time.

Cool. It was a really cool story. Like we had like a meat, the label kind of extravaganza on this boat. And I saw her from across the room. I'm like, that's the girl I'm going to marry. Really? Yeah. Stayed with her for like two or three weeks in Australia.

And I called her boss. I'm like, she quits. She's coming to L.A. with me. And she quit. She quit. Amazing. Yeah. That was it.

Yeah, that was it. We lived here for like eight years or so. And then when we decided to have kids, we're like, let's get back to Australia. I think that's smart. Yeah. It's free. Yeah. And let's just beyond that.

I think Australia is a really unique special place. You know, Australians could complain about Australia all day long, but that's what we all do about our own countries. We complain about the problems or whatever. But when you go to Australia, you actually mostly only experience, like, the great things about it. If you're not from Australia, you didn't grow up there and you don't have like a, you know, deeper rooted problem with the system there

or whatever, like some, I guess everyone in their own country, we're all going to have things we argue about. Of course. But like fundamentally, Australia is like this family place where they enjoy stuff. Yeah. Kind of the culture. Yeah, we live like five minutes from her parents. They're great people.

Yeah. They help with the kids a lot. Ozzy. Ozies. Grandparents. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. Easygoing.

Her dad's like, Mr. Fix it. So whenever we have anything go down, he's like on the move. And they love you. They love me. I bet. Yeah. Hard not to love. you. Oh, that's sweet of you. Well, it's funny. I was thinking about it like, Bert. I was thinking

about coming in, driving in, talking to you. We've known each other a long time. Yeah, 20 years or so. Yeah. I think we met a little bit before Lies for the Liars. Yeah. Yeah. You guys were working on the record with John. Yeah. That's when we met. Yep. You have a side of you that I think is the front man, right the kid who needs to get on stage and say what he needs to say sing what he needs to sing that from the outside has always been like a wild a bit of a wildfire you're or a wild card you're kind of like like you're you're nice but it's like there's a wildness to it that's a bit intimidating sometimes when you see someone that you're like he could do anything yeah like you never know yeah um which is a good thing there's an unpredictability to

being an artist that I think is important to what you, the art you make. That's why it's good. Right. And there's always been a certain amount of cockiness that you have to apply to being the crazy front man. Yeah. Yeah. Were you super confident growing up?

No. I was like the outsider kid. Right. You know what I mean? So is it something you had to find? Yeah. Since I was eight, I always knew that I was going to do this. I saw Michael Jackson performing on MTV and I was like, that's it.

Michael. That's the one for me. So ever since then, people like, ask me nowadays, like, did you see yourself doing this when you were little? And it's like, fuck yeah, I did it the whole time. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So that kind of part of me, I think developed, like early on, I was in a hardcore band called Cobra Kai. Yeah. And we just thought we were the best. I thought I was the best.

You are. I mean, you are. You're an iconic. You're an iconic. figure in music. Thank you. So the thing I wonder about is how does the shy, I suspected that you were probably shy or like the outsider kid to the society you were in that you grew up around, right?

Because we all grow up in these microcosms of the world in our own little communities and we're like, where do I fit in? Like that's kind of the question that immediately starts. And then they start trying to fit you in places when you go to school. They're like, okay, you go with this group because you learn this way. or you do whatever or they don't care or whatever or kids do it or your parents do it everyone's i think mostly well-intentioned or just trying to get things to move so i suspected you were probably creative which most creatives were like mostly we're shy yeah but we have an outgoing streak in us

because i think we all need to connect with people yeah it's like the deep need yeah i want to connect with people and i want them to like me yeah that's me i was all born out of wanting people to like me I kind of want people to hate me a little bit. I don't know if you do. You know what? I don't actually think you do. I think that you, maybe you think you do, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you have.

It's a love, hate. Yeah. I think there's something about the mass group of people, which is most people who don't want to step outside of and disrupt the flow. Yeah. You know, that we love and we hate. Yep. The rules of stuff.

I think there's something that happens to us when we're young where we get hurt by some group of people or something. And we never really forgive them, even when they're the people that like us, like when we get older. So there's like a love-hate relationship we have with our own success sometimes because we have all these people that come and they're like clapping for you. And then you're also like, well, I've been alone my whole life.

I don't know how I feel about all of you people and me feeling like I've got to answer it all. you now. And so there's this weird relationship you gain with. You end up loving your fans. Of course. There's a need there for both of us. Like your music actually helps them. Yeah. A lot. I mean, they, I'm sure they tell you all the time. Like, you saved my life or you help me. Yeah. That's what music's all about, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think for me it was growing up in, in the Mormon church. Right. I'm feeling betrayed by my childhood and my parents and the whole Mormon situation. Like it was a... So I had to lash out.

Right. Yeah. Like it was... It was very, very conservative when I was growing up. I think Mormons have really chilled out. They're kind of more accepted. They've opened up the... They've opened up. They have to.

Right. Or they die. Yep. Goes away. No one's going to stay. I think that religions will eventually mimic real true life. Yeah. Yeah. I think so, too. That's smart. It's a good observation.

So your house was super conservative. Growing up, yeah. Yeah, mine was too. My mom threw away. Nirvana and Sesticide like four different times. Yeah. Yeah. That's the record that taught me how to sing harmonies.

Yeah, I would always say that I hear, I heard a lot of Kirk Cobain in your music. Well, thanks. And in your voice and in your, like, your delivery and stuff. Like, I had a dream last night, I was hanging with Kurt. And he was on this big, like, Ferris wheel kind of carnival swing. And he's like, I'm up here. And I didn't dare, like, make the jump from the roof to the swing. Oh.

That was my dream. It's crazy to think that he was so young when he still feels like an older. guy guy to me but he's like half my age you know what I mean did he look young or old in the dream he looked young but he still felt old yeah yeah that's kind of what like I think after life is yeah something like I think we're all kind of stuck at a certain age what age do you feel me yeah it's a really good question well I don't know why 24 came to mine right me yeah I feel about about 24 I think it was when I started to realize again Strict House was not allowed to experience the world.

And then I was like, I turned 14, I got a job because I had to. I was telling my daughter this yesterday because she was complaining about some stuff. And I don't want to like criticize my kids for thinking that their life is hard in the ways that it is. So I always listen and I'm like, you know, I just share my own experience. Yeah. And I was 14. I didn't know anything. Wasn't allowed to listen to secular music, wasn't allowed to, you know, secular music.

Yeah. wasn't allowed to go to parties, wasn't allowed to do anything. But my mom, who was a single mom at the time, couldn't fully pay the bills. She was struggling. So me and Benj got jobs. We were working. So we were paying the electric. If we didn't pay the electric, it got cut off.

So I was telling my daughter that. I was like, there's obligations in life that are just the reality wherever you're at. And if it's keeping the electric on, sometimes it's that basic. It's like you have to do it or no one else is going to do it. And but then I started learning about the world when I was in the world. I had to get a job. Yeah. And then I started paying bills.

You're kind of, you start to feel like you can make decisions. Yeah. So then I started listening to music and just started devouring everything. Beastie Boys, Nirvana, all the, all the, all the music. And then we started Good Charlotte. We were 16. But I think I was behind.

Right. In my development. Yeah. I was very immature. Yeah. In a lot of ways. Immature in work ways, but very emotionally immature. Yeah.

And I don't think I started. started to mature emotionally until my mid-20s. Yeah. When I was like, oh, I need to go like to work on myself. I need to go therapy. And so 24, 25 is when I like became, I felt aware. Yeah. And then probably didn't really get there until 32 when I was like, okay, I actually

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yeah, I still feel probably 21 You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Just unhinged at times.

Well, you're probably in a really fun dad. My dad, well, it's complicated. I mean you. Oh, me? I'm a great dad, yeah. Because you're young. Super fun dad. I'm not, like, my wife always gets mad at me for not disciplining the kids.

There's no rules. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You learn from your own dad, I think. Yeah. Was your dad fun? Not when I was growing up.

Right. He's fun now. Right. Like, they just flew out to see. me play in Anaheim just for the day. He's really proud of me. But growing up, it was definitely tumultuous. And he's a really angry kind of violent guy. Yeah. So it was tricky growing up. I left the house when I was 15. They kind of, I started to drift away from the church and think on my own and started to question things. And they were like, well, if you're not going to go to our church,

you can't live in our house. And so I pieced out. Was that like? Kind of crazy. I was straight edge. So I was trying to find somewhere to fit in. You know what I mean? I worked at Subway as a sandwich artist. Yeah. And a bunch of my friends worked there who partied a lot. So I quickly kind of fell into that life. And from there, it was just sleeping on couches, boozing, doing drugs, until I met Danny Payne and a bunch of other kids that I started a band with. And yeah, it kind of got a lot worse from there getting a, serious heavy drugs and living in car garages and stuff until I met the used and uh one of the best band names ever they used yeah yeah that's a good name and uh they would take me to n a meetings and and to try to help me get back on my feet were they sober as well yeah oh wow yeah wow wow yeah how old were you guys i was 17 when i met him wow that's young and just fresh off like a year of serious meth, math binge.

Yeah, it's tough out there in Salt Lake City. Yeah, and Utah is fucking tough. It's kind of like, it's kind of like Alaska. Yeah, it's something like Alaska, New Mexico. There's places you go. Omaha.

Yeah, where you feel the drug use. You can kind of feel it. Yeah, when there's nothing else to do. You can see it and feel it. You pull into the town and you go, whoa. Yeah. People are every, there's a lot of drugs here. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's a heavy, sad. The conservative, the religious aspect of Utah kind of creates this hardcore, like, zombieness. Yeah, I think people want to lash out because of how conservative it is. Yeah. You know, no sex in the church.

So everyone's having crazy sex when they're super young. Wild, crazy outside of the church sex. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. It's weird, right? Like, do you ever think if someone had just told me everything's okay, it's okay to like want to do that and even do it sometimes? It's okay to look at that and maybe do that. It's okay to have sex when you want to have sex.

Like I always tell my kids, like, you're going to make your decision on that one. Yeah. And not me. Yep. So what I hope is you do what you want when you want. Yeah. With who you want when in all things, right? Like why live a life where you're doing anything you don't want to do anywhere you don't want to do it with anyone you don't want to do it with?

Yeah. Regardless of hanging out. Because of someone else. Because of someone else or because you just want to do it and you'll take any version of that. And like is there like a thoughtful way to build a life of experience of like doing whatever the fuck you want in a fashion you want to do it in and in a time frame that you can? I'm pretty sure there is. I think so. I always like.

I think with a parent who's just support. supportive, understanding. I mean, the places we came from was pretty rough. Yeah. So understanding that kids are going to make the decisions they're going to make. They're fucking going to do it.

Yeah. No matter what. No matter what. Yeah. I don't know what to say about it. I always say that. Like, I take each phase of parenting as I, as it fucking comes,

but I'm like, I don't have a whole idea formed around that yet. Mm-hmm. Try to set some standards of policies. Yeah, you just want your kids to be safe. Yeah. Be safe. That's it. I never try to push my kids in anything. You know, like some parents want their kid to be a musician because they're musicians. Dancer or a gymnast. Anything like that. I think that's the wife's job. Yeah. Yeah. My kids figure skate like five times a week. So mom's a skate mom.

Well, they probably love it. Oh, they love it. Yeah. It's a whole thing. It's a lifestyle. Yeah. How old are your kids? Six and ten. Wow. Two girls. It's really ricket real. Cleopatra Rose and Minerva Bloom. Nice names. Yeah, I got to pick them. Yeah. Poetic. Yeah. Full grown kids.

They're no longer, you're not in the trenches with the babies anymore. Now you're in the real people. Real people. You're the real people. Yeah. They have a thought, ideas, like, especially the 10-year-old, like, this is it. Starting to get sassy. Starts to get sassy.

Starts to get their own idea of something. Yeah. And it's fun. Yeah. But how has that changed your relationship with, music and entertaining going on stage or making music or doing this thing that we do that's a weird job yeah it's a job it's a job but it's also a thing we love to do i think deep down i've always felt like i was just a person i was just a normal person but having kids kind of really solidified that

i think a lot of people walk around with a chip on their on their shoulder i think that uh i've always pretended to have a chip on my shoulder and it worked out for me. But you don't have a heavy chip on your shoulder. I'm just a regular guy living in this world that's spinning. So you get a little bit of entertainment out of it yourself. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm on stage, it's like that side of me kind of doesn't exist in my other life.

I think that maybe it did before being younger and rowdy and disrespectful. But having kids, you know, totally changes all that in a good way. So here's what I think. Because you're making me think about myself too. And I'm actually just processing it in real time because I think this way too, that same experience. I've put it into the same words as you. But I feel that same exact way. There's the version of me. There's the me that was on stage all those years that didn't know the me that's married with kids that gets up, takes my daughter to school. My son's sick right now.

Went home, gave him some medicine, got him some food. Right. Hung out with him a little bit. Talked about the baseball. He likes baseball cards, and we were talking about the World Series and hung out a little bit.

And then I went into my office. My wife came in. We had a conversation about the schedule this week because there's some stuff. And you know what I mean? Like it's like real like, it's a real life of a functioning group of people that are all working together to like just live.

Yeah. And you kind of go like, that's fucking nice. It's a really nice. I really enjoy that. Yeah. Completely different from the guy who was just on a tour bus, playing shows every night, whatever. You know what I mean?

Yeah. 100%. I think that when you're younger, you get offstage and you maintain that persona a little bit more than you do when you have kids. And because you think it's, you're right. Because you think it's you. You don't realize it's not actually you. It's a perception of you that people have gained that you've actually,

somewhere on some stage you did something. Yeah. And everyone went, one of the things that frontmen and performers are that we actually don't give ourselves credit for, actually, we are observers. Yeah. We observe the group and we notice what makes them react.

We notice what makes them smile. We notice what makes them clap. Sure. We say this, they do this. And we inherently become communicator. And like, we're actually kind of something like expert people readers. Yeah. You can go to, you as the lead singer of guys on thousands of shows could go into any room

and you know more about everyone in that room within three minutes than the average person who hasn't seen hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. Yep. Every night, hour in, for tens of thousands of hours. So if you think about it, it also shaped our personas. So we're on stage at early shows and we're just being ourselves, but we're doing things that come natural to us. But we're noticing when the things get a response. Whatever that response is, some good, some bad.

Some people like the bad response. Some people like the good response. I'm more of like a warm, cheery, clapy guy. Some guys like shock. Yeah. But it's all the same. It's like a response. People respond a lot like a bodily function almost.

Sure. They're just like, you know, like you smell something bad or you smell something. good. It's very natural. Yeah. So you end up becoming this kind of version of yourself that's in response to the interaction you've been having every night, right? Yeah. And then you think it's real.

Yeah. So you're saying, like you carry it off stage and you keep it going. Yeah. Way longer than you like would now at this age when your kids don't give a fuck. No. They just want their dad to like hang out with them and. They think it's cool, but it's not like the end all. And it's not.

actually, they actually get it. Like, it's not actually you. Yeah. Like, my kids kind of say that too. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, that's cool. That's funny. Like, it's cool.

You do that. You're a different guy up there, dad. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's cool. I think that it's what we got to do, you know. A lot of people come to shows just to watch, just to sit back and, you know, observe, like you're saying.

A lot of people come to shows to lose themselves and really be a part of it. and open up their heart and let their true self be shown for just an hour or whatever it is. Yeah. I've always wanted to know what you were thinking up there. Yeah. It's like therapy for me. Yeah. You know, I get up there and say what I feel and feel what I feel.

It's not so much about the reaction to me. It's more about just the enjoyment of the moment. And, yeah, shock is cool. I think it puts people outside of themselves, you know. I also think I needed a lot of love. Yeah. I didn't get enough hugs. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like growing up, I didn't get enough hugs. Yeah. I didn't get enough like out of boys. Yeah. And I need those. I came to the realization I told my wife like a while ago. I came to the realization that what the gold in life for me is someone saying good job.

Yeah. You know, and like I told her I need that. I need you to say good job. Yeah. Like that's what I thrive on and that's when I'm at my best is when someone like pats me on the back. Or like, just being honest, you know, like, I need hugs. Yeah. I always thought about, like, what it must be like to be around Prince or be around David Bowie.

Yeah. And I wanted people to be scared of me. Yeah. You know, I wanted people to fear the presence. So for me, maybe not hugs, maybe we're like, oh, fucks. You accomplished it. Yeah. That's how I used to be.

I was like, oh, Bert. The oh, fucks. Bird, talk to me. It's real, it's good You know what's funny We play it out But like I wonder why though

Yeah Not fitting in school Yeah Not being a part of the skater crew Or the drug The stoner crew Or Not having a crew

I was always In the plays You know I always loved to be on stage No matter what Yeah I did like all the theater And all the music

And you know That kind of thing I was kind of That's sweet you feel at home, you know? To me, okay, so that's, that's cool to hear because there's something really sweet about that, that like, you have to embrace that part of yourself because it's something like your kid. Yeah.

If they go and I skate, you enjoy watching them do something that they love. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's something really sweet and honest about ice skating. Yeah. Or my daughter dances. something really sweet about how she's always loved to dance. Yeah, they put themselves into it.

Yeah. You see that part of yourself. And you see that part of yourself and you wonder, like, did anyone nurture the sweeter side of me? Yeah. And what would have happened? And I'm not saying, like, I think that we're on some, like, mystical journey in life in some ways where, like, we become exactly what we're supposed to become.

Mm-hmm. And you're extremely special. You have a special brand of what you do. That's unique to itself. Thanks, man. It's true. Yeah. It's a part of the legacy of your whole musical catalog is your persona, the presence you have.

It could be misunderstood sometimes or it could be a lot of things. But it's you. Yeah. It's an aspect of you. I was never afraid to burn a bridge. Yeah. You know. I was.

Yeah. Overly. I was so much a don't give a fuck kind of person growing up. Yeah, well, it's inspiring to see people who can be that way because it's, it's empowering. Yeah. And it's freeing. It makes you go, man, I wish I was a little bit more like that. And then you go, man, I wish I wasn't so much like that.

I have so many people in my life that it's kind of like we're friends, but there's been shit. You know what I mean? I'm sure between me and you as well. Like, we're friends. We've always been friends, but there's been shit. If there was, I don't remember any of it. Good. I'll be honest.

Good. I think it's a function of growing up. Yeah. And I think it's a function of as I got older, I became a lot more understanding of that it's not just me in any equation. Yeah. And so I understand more that there's always two sides of every conversation, every relationship.

And I've become a lot more, I think. precious about how people about relationships yeah yeah i just accept you know um so if there was ever anything between us i couldn't remember it i can't remember it either yeah yeah but i've always known you were a live wire yeah whenever you come into my awareness if i see you guys out there all the time i see you guys you're doing this you're doing that and so i i keep up and i see things i always kind of go like i have a very like warm feeling of like oh yeah i hope those guys are good. Oh, that's cool. They're doing that. You know what I mean? It's a good feeling. Yeah, we love it.

Yeah. We wouldn't do it, right? And that's the impression. Whatever you could say, you could probably go and find something back there in the day and we could look at it and we both would laugh probably. But the impression that was left on me and I think in general, that's the spirit, is warm. It's good. It's all good stuff. So that's, that's nice. Yeah. It's not always the case. Right.

And people, you're like, you know what I mean? For sure. Not afraid to burn those bridges at all. Yeah. Yeah. Have you had to repair any bridges? I think they kind of repair on their own. The older you get, the more relaxed, I think more understanding people are of my kind

of loose, unhinged self. But yeah, there's been a lot of bridges that it's like, okay, do I want to fix this relationship or do I want to just keep it out how it is? Yeah, let it lie. Yeah. Let them remember who I was instead of who I am. Right. You don't feel like it's important for them to know who you are now because I wasn't a very, you know, good guy a lot of the times.

You think so? Yeah. Osterized people and kept people on the outside a lot. I think a lot to do with drugs and alcohol. Usually. Yeah. Yeah. What's your relationship like now with drugs and alcohol?

I'm clean. Oh, you are? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. It's nice.

Yeah, it's better. It's nice when you can get... I'm a, you know, I'm a vicious alcoholic. Oh, really? Yeah. So you struggled with that? I went to rehab about 12 years ago. Oh, wow.

And then just kept it up. Something clicked. And I was about to lose everything. You know, my wife was about to leave me. My band was about to leave the whole thing. So that usually does it. Yeah, it did it for me. I'm around so many artists and the drugs is always a thing.

It's always going to be a thing. There's always going to be drugs around. Yeah. So it doesn't shock me. It doesn't like, I'm not the judge and jury on someone's alcohol problem. Yeah, I like people to party. I've never been addicted to anything. Yeah.

But probably food. Okay. And maybe like I'm trying to think of like addiction, addiction, addiction, addicting things like maybe like online shopping or something. I don't know. Like just shit that's like, like, like no one's going to say you're out of control. Yeah.

Like, but my dad died from drinking. That probably put it all into perspective. Put way into perspective. Yeah. Lots of addicts all around me. My older brother's clean and sober now for 18 years. Yeah.

Or longer. My sister has her own version of sobriety that is working. So when I'm around young artists, because that's usually where people are really like, not giving any credit to the drugs and alcohol. They don't think there's any danger there. Yeah, let loose. Yeah, I'm like, listen, from my experience, nobody's beat this thing.

Yeah. So I would be careful with the drugs and alcohol, but you're going to find out one way or another. And I don't want to be around you when you're on drugs because I don't think it's a good time. Yeah. But I also like don't even know where I. I fit in or my perspective fits in your own forming your opinion on like what you're doing here. So it's a weird one.

I'm kind of the opposite. I like to get people fucked up in the moment. Even sober? Try to get my band to drink all the time. Are they all like clean? They drink and a little bit. But none of them have addictive personalities. You know what I mean?

But I'm always trying to get them to drink before the show. Like somebody drink. I need somebody to. Somebody do coke. Yeah. Wow. Do they ever do it? No, they're pretty chill.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It is. Our drummer, he's like a six beer and night guy. Okay. But he has like a certain time where he has to start. He never drinks before a show. Yeah.

I'm like, man. It's good policy. Get fucked up. I'll have a drink. Turn six into nine into 12. I like people being like hammered. Totally loose. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You like to start a little trouble. Always. Yeah. That's funny. I'll get drugs for them. Will you?

Really? Of course. Yeah. You're nuts. I wouldn't even know how to get drugs. No? No. It's easy.

I've never done cocaine in my life. Never? No. Oh. I don't even know what it looks like. Oh, man. So, I mean, I like to party too. I just stay away from drinking.

Right. But if there's drugs around. Oh, so you do drugs? Every once in a while. When they're around. Okay. That is the strangest thing I've ever heard. I think that there's a lot of exploration that kind of can open your mind, mushrooms and LSD, DMT.

So I don't count mushrooms as a drug. Good drugs always rhyme. Yeah. Yeah. Cilocybin. Ooh. I don't count that as a drug though. Yeah.

It's like weed or tobacco. Yeah. So it's just. You count cocaine, heroin. Yeah. Those two alone? Well, I think prescription drugs. Oh, yeah.

Pain pills. I don't fuck with those. Pain pills are dangerous. Yeah, I don't fuck with pain pills. I just know so many people that got hooked and then they end up on heroin. Yeah, I got hooked on accident, you know, broke my elbow falling off the stage and they just give you a big, big ass bottle of Vicodin. It's easy to call in. But microdosing mushrooms, I've done that before.

Yeah, nice. You got to take a... Smoked weed? I smoked weed. I don't like it. I don't like weed, but I smoked it before. Yeah, I like it a lot. Enough times to say, I like... Do you smoke weed a lot? No, I quit. I quit smoking weed like a month ago. Okay. You know, real stoner move. I just forgot to smoke one day.

And then you stopped. And then I was like, well, I don't really feel any different. Yeah. Save myself a bunch of money. Yeah. My wife's the opposite. Yeah. She likes to wake and bake.

Yeah, well, I don't think... It's amazing. But I actually think it's like kind of an... herbal, medicinal, like I take... Yeah, some people open up. Some people, it helps anxiety. It helps depression. Yeah.

Some people, it really works for. I think for me, it's a little bit of the opposite. I can definitely spiral out. Does it make you anxious? It can. Yeah. It depends on what's going on, what kind of headspace I'm in.

You know what I mean? Yeah. If there's a bunch of shit going on in my life where I'll be anxious anyways. Right. It'll just take it to the next level. Right. That's the thing I always have to remind myself about anxiety

because I struggled with it when I was younger. Yeah. Big time. And then I realized that that's what it was, which that's another thing. I think in my late 20s when I started working on myself was when I realized, like, oh, you got an anxiety thing. You got PTSD. You got all this shit from your childhood that you never even given any credit to.

Yeah. And then when I got on the other side of all the work, and I still work on myself, I still go to therapy every week. I still look for personal growth things, you know, ways. to grow or whatever. One of the things after I always remind myself is like, no, no, everybody is anxious a little bit about something at any given moment in their life. Of course. Be work, it could be family, it could be, you know, whatever it is. So you have to make room for some amount of anxiety in times, especially when you're doing a lot. Yeah. You know, you're out there on the road,

you're doing this, you're away from your family. You got to make room for anxiety to be there a little bit. Yeah, the pandemic wrecked me. Were you anxious? Stuck in Australia. Super bad depression, super bad anxiety. Had to like get serious help for it. Not playing shows is just, that's my outlet. That's my savior, being able to be on stage.

And I just love touring. I love the bus. I love the camaraderie. I love, you know, you have way more friends on tour than you do when you're at home. Yeah, it's a very social job. Stuck on a bus with 12 other dudes. It's fun. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. A lot of people kind of get over it, the older they get. But I feel like I get way more into it the older I get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah. Do you think the shows are better now?

100%. I think so, too. Yeah, we give a fuck. Yeah. We run a whole set before we go out and play the set. Yeah, you're a better band. Yeah. Yeah.

It's important to be tight. Yeah. To be on top of it. Well, there's like a quality to the work you do because you actually realize that this age, even though you're not old, you're mature enough to know, like, the level you do it at. Yeah. You don't actually throw that away? Yeah, I know I can sort of sing.

So it's always about, I'll say. It's always about kind of trying to step it up. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say if you look across your career, right? Which is two decades. Yeah, 25 years. Right.

I was in bands before that, but it was never like anything serious. Still counts, though. I was in a ska band. Yeah. Still counts. Skanking. And then a hardcore band. So I got kicked out of my scoban for screaming.

And then I got kicked out of my hardcore band for smoking weed. Right. You're straight-edge hardware band. Yeah. And still friends with all those, dudes. It's amazing. But you were disloyal. Yeah.

Yeah. Because that's the... Always. Hardcore beds. Unhinged. Loyalty. Respect. Yeah.

But if you were a bodybuilder, the first day you walked into a gym would be the start of your bodybuilding career. Of course. So in my mind, first day you started in any band was the start of your music career. So let's say three decades, right, of work. If you look back across three decades of work, is there one or two things you could say that you're the most proud of? I think being able to keep the use together for as long as it has been, that's definitely like... It's an accomplishment. Yeah. I feel like a lot of bands struggle with that. Even though we've had different players and this and that. Yeah.

Our bass player, Jeffa, we've been together the whole time. So playing these solo shows has been crazy because it's the first time I've been on stage without Jeffa in, you know, 25 years. Wow. And I think that being able to open up the way I do when I record music and when I write lyrics, I've never hidden anything. Yeah, you've never held back. Never.

Right. It's more than my journal. It's so intimate. It's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah, that's a, I have to be honest, I don't know if I could say that. Yeah. I hold back.

Yeah, I can't help it. It's like a big part of what I believe music is about. Yeah. And everyone has problems, like you said, everyone has anxieties and everyone has, will experience sorrow. Everyone will experience heartache. Loss. Loss. And if I can open up that side of myself, I think that people can always relate.

I group all those things into the inevitable pain of life. The inescapable pain of life is that we will all share, regardless of where we're from, what we look like, how much money we have, whatever. The thing that we all have in common, it's not actually love. Yeah. Some people never, as sad as it is for me to say that, some people never experienced, we all experience different levels of love. We don't actually know if we're sharing the same thing

when we say we share love. I don't know if that's true. Sure. Right. I know people that have said, I've never found a person. Yeah. Right?

I know people like that. But everybody has someone that dies. But everybody has experienced the pain of life, the loss. The loss. Loss. Yeah. Would be the one. The heartache.

The heartache and the pain of loss is, to me, the number one connector of all of us. Yeah. And then there's some others, but lost to me is the biggest. Yeah, I was able to tap into that really young. When we were making in love and death, there was a bunch of tragedy in my life. I lost the first girlfriend I ever had to opiates. Ooh.

And I was able to just put it in my music, you know, was able to really use that as a type of therapy, as a type of grieving. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's why I think so many people like your music. It's interesting because, like, to hear you say you don't hold back, it makes me wonder, like, how much loss did you suffer before you were 25? Yeah. Amazing amounts.

Right. Yeah. Amazing amounts of loss. Whether it's your puppy, or you've been hanging with three years or a girlfriend that you experienced, like, everything with, your first everything. Yeah. And John Feldman has always helped me kind of be able to stand up instead of lay down. Right. You know, and put that into song.

Yeah, you guys have a special creative relationship. Yeah, he's definitely a older brother to me. Yeah. He's a tricky character, that's for sure. He's a complicated guy. But he has an amazing work ethic. Yeah, he does. And I think for those of us who are on the inside, we can really see, like, he's the same as all of us.

You know, he's an artist. He's an artist. He's had his artist's journey. I love when people are talented enough to be the fuck you guy. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like you hear stories about Prince.

Don't look me in the fucking eyes kind of guy. Yeah. And I'm like, that's pretty badass. I think that if you're talented enough, you deserve to be that kind of guy. Yeah, well, he was real. Yeah. Somewhere down the road with Prince,

somebody hurt him bad enough. Yeah. That he was like, no one's ever going to fucking do that to me again. Yeah. And he started making rules. Yeah. And it wasn't about how big he was.

It was 100% about, his rules. Yeah. Well, sometimes it is about how big you are. Sometimes. Yeah. But that definitely kind of reinforces the rules. It makes people like want to follow him if they want to be near you or whatever. But I do think that we all have to come up with our own set of policies that we believe in. Sure.

And stick with it. And if people don't like it. Sure. Well, let's talk about the solo record. Yeah. How's it been? It's been amazing. Yeah, these little shows are playing. It's been like so freeing and so kind of kind of kind of,

I feel like I've never done anything outside the band and just to have this little moment where the guys are cool with it Yeah, it wasn't it was never like what is he fucking doing? He's trying to branch out on his own I made a record for fun. It's about desperate love. It's about seeing the positive side of things. Yeah, it came from a really dark place, which is nice because I'm able to kind of peek over the edge of you know, I'm able to keep my head above the water a little bit. Was it During the depression and stuff, it kind of was born in the depression of like COVID and all that? Yeah. Right.

So we're coming to the studio and it's like a little therapy session, how we're feeling today, what's the vibes? And then we just write it down. Making the record, was it a search for something or was it a need to do something? Or was it like what have you gained? What have you found? What have you like what's been the product of doing this? For me growing up, I was always super into pop music, like I've mentioned, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson. Love Mara Carey. She's my first crush. Nice. So I'm always the one trying to fight to put the pop records on the used stuff.

Right. And the guys want to keep it heavy. They want to keep it nasty. I like the pop records. Yeah, me too. So I just decided to do one on my own. And yeah, it feels like something. was born that kind of connects me to the personal side of my life. Even though I'm open as an open book with the used, this can be even more like mine. Yeah. I was wondering like you're an open book with the pain. Yeah. But are you an open book with the joy? Yeah. And then this kind of says that. Yeah, a lot of these songs are just about the hope for happiness. Yeah. And joy. Right. Yeah. Are you Um, that's a tricky question.

Yeah, it is. I have moments of happiness in the day. Isn't that weird that's such a tough question for us? Are you happy? It's funny, we react the same way. I am happy. I'm happy as a dad. Yes, that's the thing is the question I keep coming back to, if I'm being really honest, is do you love yourself?

Yeah. I love my fucking kids. Yeah. I love my wife. Yeah. I love my dogs. Yep. I love my brothers.

I love the people I work with. Yeah. Do you love yourself? Fuck no. That is, so that's the question that I always ask because I know that that's what I mean when I say, am I happy? Because if you took me, if you came to my house and you were with us and we were all having pizza and we were all talking, you'd be like, are you happy? I'm like, yeah, I'm fucking happy. Exactly. Because I'm happiest when I'm with people that I fucking love.

Yeah. But am I happy? I've had to learn how... In the moments where you're just by yourself. That's the good question. Yeah. This is a funny thing I always say to my therapist, right? I'm trying not to hold back here.

I always try to not hold back on this show because I care about the conversations because the people listening, I actually feel like when they listen to, you know, listening to Bert from the used, one of their favorite bands, they want to experience the person. Right.

Because they relate to your music. Yeah. They relate to your story. They know all about it. There's always hurt. behind sharing like that. Yeah, there's pain. Beyond pain.

Yeah. It's terrifying. Yeah. Like maybe I'll listen back to this interview and be like, fuck. I always say that. Cringe. I always say that. Yeah.

Every day I do this. I always say that. Well, you got a good thing going, man. You got a really awesome podcast. Thank you. Yeah. I care about the people that come here because the only people that are allowed to come here are the ones that want to. Yeah.

It's interesting because the show, the show is special. but at the end of the day, like, it's only special because the people that come here are special. Yeah. And we, I try. I'm just a normal person. There's nothing special. You're very special.

You're a very special, compelling, interesting guy with a lot to offer the world. Right. And you've been giving the world art for many years. It's them, you know. They've made it special. Yeah. They've made it important.

On my side, it's just like a sob story. Yeah, it's kind of a bit of a It's not bullshit It's not bad It's like Go to a restaurant You eat the food If it's not good

You're not going back True You know It's just not going to Yeah I don't struggle with like A deep dark hate for myself Right

But I do struggle with a Deep dark hate for myself Yeah it's like a I say this to my therapist When he's like how are you doing And I'm like well I don't want to kill myself That's true yeah

Well, that's, that's as good as we can get, right? Right. So, so it's funny. I'm barely swimming. It's funny. I haven't drowned yet. Yeah, it's like, it's like, well, I'm doing pretty good, pretty good. I don't want to kill myself.

That's sad to say it because the truth of the matter is, is that at some point in my life, I didn't feel like I deserve, I didn't feel like I was special. I didn't feel like I was lovable. I didn't feel like I was worth anything. Yeah. And I had to discover. So do I think I'm special? I think I am special. I think I have aspects of me that make me me.

Yeah. And I think that what I discovered in life was to be myself is the actual journey. Is it what does it mean to be me, however exciting or not exciting that is? Is it okay to not be exciting? Is it okay to be a boring guy? Never. Is it okay to be like into the dumb little things I'm into? Never. Right. Special is a tough word, but I'm powerful. Yeah, you are. Commanding. Yes. I believe that people need to listen to me.

Yeah. Some people will call that special, though. It's a funny word, though, because people would make fun of me for saying the word special. Right. Right? But I like special shit.

Humans are all special in their own way. Yeah. Right? Everyone has their thing. There's a lot of words for it. Unique, special, different. But I think the solo record is an exercise in kind of this like,

exploration of like who am i now and what what do i want to show people the side of me yeah it's a bold move to show people that's how to you yeah like i said i think a lot of people have the same experiences that i do yeah deep dark pain um that they maybe want to hide from but they don't have to yeah yeah there is some way we can integrate yeah like so i think it's something like i i do think it's something like learning to love yourself, even all of the pain and the wounds and the injuries. If you were five and someone came along with a baseball bat and broke your leg in half, and no one told you that's what happened. You only have the memory of it.

You don't know why. And then your leg healed, funny because you never went and got a surgery on it. And you walk with a limp for the rest of your life. And you have to learn how to embrace this injury you had that you couldn't control. You don't understand why it happened. Or just be pissed about it for your entire life. Or you can be pissed about it and likely you are for a long time. Sometimes that makes the person, right?

It does. Some people live in this dark shadow and maybe that's okay. Or they represent something that we all have. And we are afraid to express it. They represent being pissed. They represent being misunderstood. And we all feel that way, but we can't express it because it's not okay to disrupt the group by saying I'm pissed off.

I think it is. That's why you're, the character you are is part of the person who you really are. It's abusive at times. It can be. Some people just can't handle it. Yeah. Well,

you can. I try to. So I think I pretend to. I know I'm not, but I pretend I am. Yeah. That's how I live. That's why I'm not.

I think you're pretty great. But I pretend I am. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why you're great. I'm just bird. The family does a lot for us, though 100%. You feel love, you feel acceptance,

you feel, it's true love when you have a kid. They just look up to you, they love you no matter what. Yeah. Well, until they become teenagers, probably. Yeah. I'm waiting. My girl's already Yaz, Queen and Slay. Yeah.

And like, Dad, you don't know anything. You dropped out of school. Yeah. Yeah, that's forever. Yeah. As soon as they realize that. Yeah. Like my daughter, she runs the show.

She still loves me. Yeah. Even when she doesn't. 100%. When she's mad at me. Yeah. It's like such a healing relationship to have. That's awesome.

It's great. You don't have to be anybody at home. Exactly. In the world, I feel like we always have to be somebody. Well, yeah, it's important when you're a front man. You got to go out there and be a guy. Yeah.

You got to be the guy. Even if you don't feel like you are. Yeah. Yeah. I pretend like I am. We're similar. Yeah. In a lot of ways.

It's awesome. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Dude, thanks for having me. Dude, this was great. Congrats on the used, man. Thanks. That's a huge accomplishment.

Yeah. But you were saying like, and I agree with this, like the live show is better than it's ever been. I feel the same way about Good Charlotte, which is better. Yeah, you care more. More thoughtful. Yeah. You take the time to get it right. Like you said, after playing for millions of people, you kind of understand that this is bigger than me.

Yeah. This is a, like you said, this is a special thing. BUs is special. Yeah. And you have different generations of fans. Like you've got young people that are coming to experience. and to use show because they haven't been to a wild show yet. Yeah.

It's just not, doesn't live. We have babies at our show. Right. Does it live? I get to say, fuck you to babies. Right. And the babies are like, yeah.

It's insane. Yeah. Parents holding up their baby just to get a fuck you. Yeah. That's pretty funny. I've been lucky like that. Yeah. I think people understand that on stage I'm a different person.

Yeah. Fuck you can mean a lot of things, though. It can mean I love you too. It does. You know? Fuck you. man. Yeah, fuck you. Bert, thanks, man.

Awesome. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you. Right on. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support and we'll see you next time. I'm Anna Mena.

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